Is this really the best there is?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:01 am

Monstrous wrote: No. If Jews were pissed at Germans they had more gain in every way by adhering to the gas chamber story. The Soviets involved could still be persecuted for war crimes after 1991. The Germans involved would have kept quiet or they would themselves have been prosecuted for war crimes by using POWs at the front line.
Two problems with this:
1. German soldiers who were not involved with Organisation Todt but who saw the scads of Jews and heard that they had been transferred through TBS would be able to testify of that fact.
2. Soviets would not have been "persecuted" after 1991.
Also, most Germans, Soviets, and Jews would not have been aware of the "big picture" but would only have been aware of relatively small groups of Jews in a particular area.
1.38 million Jews. That's a lot. Since it would require a cover-up the Soviet soldiers would be suspicious. It would absolutely have come out in the Khrushchev Thaw. You do know about the Khrushchev Thaw right? :roll:
Monstrous suspects that Stalin may have been paranoid and would therefore have killed off the higher officers who knew of the "big picture", both German and Soviet ones, in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
What Generals? When? I know most of the names of the senior Soviet figures at that time. Many of Beria's NKVD deputies were put on trial after Stalin's death in 1953. They would have testified about the cover-up. They testified about the GULAG's, the purges, the mass deportations, and the murders of the Jewish Anti Fascist Committee, why not about this "cover up"? Viktor Abakumov, Voselvod Mehkrulov, and Leonid Raihkmann were three such NKVD officers put on trial after Stalin's death their role in Stalinist crimes. Raikhmann in particular, as head of the Investigation Department was responsible for covering up the Katyn massacre and would have played a leading role in this potential situation. As an ethnic Jew himself he would have perhaps harbored some resentment at what was done. He said nothing. In fact he was interviewed in 1990, shortly before his death from cancer, and would have had a perfect opportunity to let this secret fly before leaving the world. He said nothing about a cover up of Jewish resettlement, but did talk in great detail about actual Stalinist crimes, including his participation in Katyn, which was still a taboo topic at the time.

If it would not have come out in the Khrushchev Thaw, it would have come out in the early 1990's.

You come off as incredibly ignorant on the realities in the USSR at the time. :budo:

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:37 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Jeff_36 takes note of your arguments. However Jeff_36 would like to draw your attention to documentary evidence of document destruction by the Nazi in Lublin and AR, specifically the report of Globocnik to Himmler.
Of course, Monstrous's ploy is pretty dumb, because we have evidence for deportations of Jews to the AR camps, we have evidence for mass murder in those camps - and among the evidence we have there's none for even 10s of 1000s of Jews being transported from the AR camps to other camps. Monstrous clams up when we cite some of the evidence we do have - and again evidence Jeff mentioned here or what I summarized in this post.

Monstrous can pretend none of these sources of information exist as much as he wants, but he won't convince anyone unless he starts to deal with the evidence. Important sources include information on deportation trains (summarized by the Düsseldorf court and Hilberg); Wolf’s letter to Ganzenmueller and Ganzemueller’s letter to Wolf of 28 July 1942 on plans for trains to carry 5,000 Jews a day to Treblinka from Warsaw; Himmler’s command to Kruger of 19 July 1942 (which said, “I order that the resettlement of the entire Jewish population in the Generalgouvernement be carried out and finished by 31 December 1942.” NO-5574, quoted in Hilberg, p 515); the Korherr report and telegram from Höfle; testimony of Gedob officials on prioritization and handling of “Jewish trains,” e.g., as quoted in Hilberg, pp 508-509; photographs of trains being loaded from the Umschlagplatz in Warsaw, Siedlce, and Skopje; many descriptions of the emptying of ghettos and towns of Jews in districts Radom and Warsaw, and in other areas, during the period we’re discussing; Gedob records and surviving Fahrplanordnung concerning railway traffic to Treblinka including payment terms for passengers conveyed by rail and orders that arriving trains at Treblinka be cleaned (Hilberg, p 509); Eichmann's interrogations and testimony; Zabecki’s testimony; Frydrych’s report for the Bund, Oyneg Shabes reports, and other reports from camp escapees; diaries and observations of contemporaries like Klukowski, Lewin, Hosenfeld, Pfannenstiel, Gerstein, and others; evidence from camp survivors; testimonies of camp guards and administrators, reports from local peasants; physical studies of the camps including archaeological investigation that is ongoing (including the findings of Łukaszkiewicz, Kola, and Haimi/Mazurek); photographic evidence of Treblinka; Globocnik's reporting on valuables taken from the victims; the OK Ostrow report on the "unbearable smell of corpses befouls the air" in the vicinity of Treblinka; Rowecki's long Home Army report on Bełzec; testimonies from construction workers who performed labor for the Germans building the gas chambers; German communications and reports on the Sobibór revolt; and so on.

Let's think about Treblinka, which is the case we started with. Basically, we have a good deal of evidence about where Jews sent to Treblinka were taken from and when; how Jews were transported to Treblinka; what happened to Jews on arrival at Treblinka; the way in which Jews deported to Treblinka were processed including theft of their valuables; how the installations at Treblinka including the killing installations operated; what units and individuals administered and guarded the camp; how many victims there were at Treblinka; the small number of Jews held out for labor; the revolt of the prisoners at Treblinka; and the liquidation of the camp.

In short, we can trace specific groups of Jews to Treblinka and "see" what happened to them in the camp.

Against all this, Monstrous has . . . silence, tangents about events before or after Treblinka was in operation and obfuscations related to Auschwitz, and dodging.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Tallboy » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:40 am

Monstrous wrote:
Tallboy wrote:Didn't Mattogno (sp?) finally say that the missing Jews were a problem for revs (and then continue on his merry way)? Strange.
"The missing jews" is a minor problem for revisionists but disproves the Believers. Lots of things can have happened to the about two millions Jews who were deported to occupied Soviet Union according to revisionists. On the other hand, the Believer claims regarding what happened to these Jews at the AR camps are impossible and disproven. Both versions assume that one side destroyed most of the documents stating what really happened so there is no help there.
Monstrous-- How is ~1.4M missing Jews a 'minor' problem for revs?? A population of Jews gone missing that is larger than the population of the largest city in Poland (Warsaw) is not a problem?? And your remedy is to hand wave it away with unevidenced assertions??

This is why you are deniers and not revisionists. you don't revise anything, only deny. Deniers claim to be the true skeptics. objective, followers of the scientific method. then when asked what happen to the Jews that went to Treblinka they basically say "who knows" and it's only a "minor problem." You believe in a transit camp theory that has absolutely no evidence. There's the scientific method for you.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:50 am

Tallboy wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Tallboy wrote:Didn't Mattogno (sp?) finally say that the missing Jews were a problem for revs (and then continue on his merry way)? Strange.
"The missing jews" is a minor problem for revisionists but disproves the Believers. Lots of things can have happened to the about two millions Jews who were deported to occupied Soviet Union according to revisionists. On the other hand, the Believer claims regarding what happened to these Jews at the AR camps are impossible and disproven. Both versions assume that one side destroyed most of the documents stating what really happened so there is no help there.
Monstrous-- How is ~1.4M missing Jews a 'minor' problem for revs?? A population of Jews gone missing that is larger than the population of the largest city in Poland (Warsaw) is not a problem?? And your remedy is to hand wave it away with unevidenced assertions??

This is why you are deniers and not revisionists. you don't revise anything, only deny. Deniers claim to be the true skeptics. objective, followers of the scientific method. then when asked what happen to the Jews that went to Treblinka they basically say "who knows" and it's only a "minor problem." You believe in a transit camp theory that has absolutely no evidence. There's the scientific method for you.
Focusing on Warsaw, as you did, historians can provide (and we've provided in this subforum) answers to questions like these (and of course the natural follow-ups on facilities, processes, etc):

1) what was the Jewish population of Warsaw in July 1942?
2) approximately how many Warsaw Jews were deported from Warsaw during July-September 1942 and how do we know?
3) where were Jews from Warsaw taken during the weeks from 22 July to 21 September 1942 and how do we know?
4) about how many Jews were sent through Treblinka to any place else during 1942 and how do we know?
5) approximately how many Jews were deported from Warsaw in 1943, to what places and when, and how do we know?
6) roughly, what was the Jewish population of Warsaw by the end of summer 1943?

Such questions are susceptible to research. Also, apparently, historians, and the rest of us, unlike "revisionist" geniuses, consider the fate of 100s of 1000s of Warsaw Jews - and similar numbers of Jews from other places, not to be a "minor" issue. Thus, we've actually researched the questions and figured out the major contours what happened.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:51 pm

The Believers need to take a step back and look at the big picture here. Many others besides Jews died during WWII. Total Soviet causalities alone are enormous and enormously unclear. Exactly how these Soviet deaths were caused is even more unclear: starvation, epidemics, forced labor in and outside of camps, partisans, guns, artillery, bombings, gulags, mismanagement, deportations of several peoples, cold exposure, Soviet secret police, and so on, are just a few of the possibilities. Official Soviet figures are propaganda so there no help there. It is in effect a historical Black Box. Into this Black Box were added two million Jews according to revisionists. Exactly what happened to them is unclear, as is also the case for the 15-30 (???) million non-Jewish Soviet causalities during this time period. How can the Believers demand an exact accounting for the Jews when there is none for the much larger number of non-Jewish Soviet causalities?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:39 pm

Monstrous wrote:The Believers need to take a step back and look at the big picture here. Many others besides Jews died during WWII.
Duh. Is this what you're here for - to state the blindingly obvious? You're a regular Wikimonster of information, aren't you? Except for information about the topic at hand . .

Or is ticking off truisms what you do when your claims, gambits, and evidence are shredded by member after member of this subforum?
Monstrous wrote:Total Soviet causalities alone are enormous and enormously unclear. Exactly how these Soviet deaths were caused is even more unclear: starvation, epidemics, forced labor in and outside of camps, partisans, guns, artillery, bombings, gulags, mismanagement, deportations of several peoples, cold exposure, Soviet secret police, and so on, are just a few of the possibilities. Official Soviet figures are propaganda so there no help there.
Look, you introduced the topic of evidence for Jewish deaths during the war; why are you running from your own topic and claims?
Monstrous wrote:It is in effect a historical Black Box. Into this Black Box were added two million Jews according to revisionists.
Who cares what deniers try passing off as knowledge - when their claims are unsupported by evidence and ignore vast amounts of documents, communications, testimonies, studies, etc? Your Soviet "Black Box" - which is misstated, to say the least, and involves, of course, Soviet archives, which were created and managed in secret and were not accessible to the West until the glasnost period - is not relevant to Jewish deaths in territory which the Germans occupied. Opening a thread on what is known about the deaths of the Soviets - btw, you forgot such no-brainer and well-understood causes as the Germans' murder and neglect of Soviet POWs, casualties among Soviet civilians in counter-insurgency operations, criminal murder of commissars and party officials by the German police, the encirclement of Leningrad and enforcement of the Hunger Policy generally - would be informative. But your analogy here is deeply flawed, because this discussion isn't about what the Soviets did or suffered on the "other side" of the front but what the Germans did in "their" territory. And because agencies of the Soviet state, as you well know, never exercised monopoly control over information in the areas controlled by the Germans.

Instead of wittering about what you don't know, why don't you try dealing with what you're been asked about your Treblinka claims here and with what you've been asked about a specific population of Polish Jews here and with the evidence mentioned and linked or referred to in this one, in this one too, and finally in this post?

Oh, we know why: you speculate and dodge and throw in red herrings all because you think that the murder of millions of Jews is a "minor problem" and beyond that you've got nada on the issue.
Monstrous wrote:How can the Believers demand an exact accounting for the Jews when there is none for the much larger number of non-Jewish Soviet causalities?
No one "demand[ed] an exact accounting for the Jews"; you were asked repeatedly to respond to conclusions, drawn from evidence, that state "approximate" numbers, "estimates," and "broad contours." That you can't do that, distort what others have written, and divert the discussion away from the evidence - which is where you started in the OP, with the evidence! - speaks volumes.

So, tell us, is the problem of what (approximately) happened to 100s of 1000s of Jews who lived in Warsaw in early July 1942 unknowable and unsolvable?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Tallboy » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:01 am

Monstrous wrote:How can the Believers demand an exact accounting for the Jews when there is none for the much larger number of non-Jewish Soviet causalities?
An exact accounting? How about one Jew of the ~900k who was transited (disembarked, deloused and put back on a train) through Treblinka and resettled somewhere? Just an eyewitness account of one? by anyone. I can come up with lot's of eyewitnesses/evidence for the non-Jewish Soviet casualties (ever heard of the battle of kursk? Stalingrad's soldiers and civilians? Soviet POWs in nazi camps?).
Monstrous wrote:Exactly what happened to them is unclear
no it isn't. and i'm increasingly becoming convinced that you know that.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:57 am

Tallboy wrote:
Monstrous wrote:How can the Believers demand an exact accounting for the Jews when there is none for the much larger number of non-Jewish Soviet causalities?
An exact accounting? How about one Jew of the ~900k who was transited (disembarked, deloused and put back on a train) through Treblinka and resettled somewhere? Just an eyewitness account of one? by anyone. I can come up with lot's of eyewitnesses/evidence for the non-Jewish Soviet casualties (ever heard of the battle of kursk? Stalingrad's soldiers and civilians? Soviet POWs in nazi camps?).
In 1943, not during 1942, approximately 2,500 Jews were taken through Treblinka to other camps (as summarized in this post and refined in this post); the shuffling of a few 1000s of Jews through Treblinka was "reported" as early as the Düsseldorf Treblinka trial in 1965 - but such shuffles of victims were to other camps, not for "resettlement," and many of those shuffled wound up in the Lublin area camps and were killed in Action Erntefest several months later. We are talking about fewer than 1% of the Jews deported to Treblinka (actually fewer than a half of 1%).

Interestingly, after making his propaganda movie, and after fleeing the SSF HD subforum debate on his movie, Eric Hunt realized that he had goofed and made this, since withdrawn, public request to find help addressing a problem he'd been tripped up on - the embarrassing problem? where Warsaw Jews were taken during 1942 and whether any were, in Hunt's phrase, "transited during this time period ANYWHERE."
Tallboy wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Exactly what happened to them is unclear
no it isn't. and i'm increasingly becoming convinced that you know that.
Indeed. That very small numbers of Jews taken to Treblinka were subsequently put in other camps (or were taken to Treblinka on their way to other camps) is known, as is the approximate number of Jews deported to Treblinka and their fate. Monstrous is playing games when he pretends that all this is a mystery and when he asked for exact precision. In fact, with some minor points of dispute, the approximate number of Jews taken to Treblinka on specific dates, from specific places, is known. Monstrous only reveals his ignorance of the sources and what is to be concluded from them with his attempted "Soviet mystery" trick - or, as you suggest, is being disingenuous.

So, sigh, we get to sit back and watch how Monstrous continues to avoid what he's been asked about this.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:35 pm

Let's try this another way. Monstrous has claimed about the Jews deported to Treblinka that "many were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities." Thus far, in reply to open-ended requests for evidence to support this claim of post-"treatment" transport of the Jews to other camps, Monstrous has fallen silent. After the war, Kurt Franz and 13 other men were faced with charges of crimes committed at Treblinka, including the crime of murder (some were indicted as co-perpetrators of mass murder and some as accomplices). Unable to handle a general request for evidence to support his assertion, perhaps Monstrous can tell us what testimony given by the accused Treblinka guards explained the transport of so many Jews "to other camps," being sure also to tell us to which camps, when, and under what circumstances the accused said Jews were taken from Treblinka.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:14 pm

Evidence for where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them at the chief destination

Quick placeholder on Warsaw-Treblinka evidence, 1942, which I plan to clean up and add to . . . here I made a list of evidence that I've read or about which I've read in secondary accounts, pertaining to a) the clearance of Warsaw ghetto in 1942, b) the transports of Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka at that time, and c) the destination of the Warsaw transports:

a) Deportation

German orders, documents, reports, etc:
Himmler Dienstkalendar for July 1942 (meetings with Globocnik/Krüger, trip to Lublin 18 July)
Himmler 19 July 1942 order to HSSPF Krüger - no Jews to remain in GG by end of 1942 unless in collection camps in five designated cities resulting in 54 temporary"Jewish residential districts" along with camps for reduced Jewish population in GG (Winstone p 159, Longerich, pp 375-376)
Frank's Diensttagebuch for July 1942, quoted in Friedlander v2, p 427
appeal for volunteers to present themselves at Umschlagplatz (Polonsky p 41)
reports of governor of Warsaw district, Fischer (Hilberg v2, p 524, Engelking & Leociak p 712)
deportation order, Engelking & Leociak p 705
Judendat announcement, 5 September 1942, per German orders, Engelking & Leociak p 727 ("the cauldron")
report of Warsaw governer to State Secretary GG for June-July 1942, dated 15 August 1942, cited in Hilberg v2, p 525
German deportation statistics (BZIH 1)
Stroop report
Korherr report
NO-057, NO-064, YVA TR.10/869 on Reinhard headquarters including T-4 personnel (Silberklang)
Höfle personnel file YVA JM/3669 (Silberklang)
Höfle's deportation orders cited in Hilberg v2, p 523, Friedlander vol 2, p 428
organizational issues of deportation, YVA TR.10/813, YVA TR.10/756, cited in Silberklang pp 331-332)
German municipal offices reports on ghetto clearance, utilities, labor (Hilberg, v2, p 526
war diary, Armament Command Warsaw, September 1942 (Hilberg)
various compliance reports made by the Judenrat to the Germans (Hilberg)

Diaries and other contemporary accounts:
S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150
W Hosenfeld - Wehrmacht captain
Najberg
Czerniakow
Lewin
Kaplan
Ringelblum - notebooks
Seidman
Korczak
Mawult (Gombinsksi)
Stok
S Ernest
Sznapman
A Berman
Bryskier
Najberg
Puterman
Staszewska
Remba - in Ringelblum
Katznelson
Wyszynski
I Lichtensztajn
MM Kon
Perle
Opoczynski PH/2-22 and AR II/215
Gorny notes and R II/237
Graber AR II/432
S Gutgeld (?), "The Trans-Settlement" AR II/214
accounts written by shop workers AR II/284 and AR II/289
accounts by 3 rabbis AR II/281
"Fiirst Day of the Deportation 'Action . . .'" AR II/196
"The Days of the 'Trans-Settlement Action'" AR I/1509
"The Destruction of Warsaw" II/198
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
half dozen or so further anonymous accounts
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 1 ("Jewish Warsaw Is No More") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts") AR II/192
MM Kon, memorial piece on Rabbi Huberbrand AR II/282
"To the Jewish Masses in the Ghetto," warning notice AR II/333
article in Wiadomosci on liquidation of the Jewish hospital during the deportation, in Blatman, pp 473-476
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942 ("Frydrych mission")

Polish underground
reports of Jewish Affairs Bureau (Wolinski), Bureau of Information and Propaganda, Delegatura, AK High Command, Feiner (to Polish government), and intelligence group
several articles in Biuletyn Informacyjny (some based on information from correspondent Jerzy Grasberg in the ghetto) and in Informacja Biezaca, also articles in AK newspapers Apel, Wiadomosci Polskie, Kronika Tygodniowa, and Niepodleglosc
declaration of civil resistance directorate
PPR newspaper Trybuna Wolnosci
other reports written by Szymanowski quoted in Engelking & Leociak pp 724-725, 728

Postwar eyewitness accounts
Zuckerman (Cukierman)
Mazor
Berg
Edelman
Goldstein
Turkow
Berlinski
Szpilman
B Warm
S Adler
Reich-Ranicki
Tokar-Warsawski (YVA M-2/451

Census and demographic information:
Waldemar Schön, from a Lecture on the Steps Leading to the Establishment of the Warsaw, "The Appearance of the Jewish Quarter," 20 January 1941 (in Arad Holocaust documents)
registration counts - January 1941 ration cards, January 1942 WELZ
order of BuF for 1942 census in GG, 20 January 1942 (Silberklang, p 275)
order from Auerswald to Judenrat for street by street population data in Warsaw ghetto, 29 April 1942 (Hilberg v2, pp 522-523)
Oyneg Shabes population estimate - July 1942 (in Engelking & Leociak).

Other postwar testimonies:
Bor-Komorowski
Michalson interrogations (Silberklang)
Többens interrogation
Platkiewicz

Miscellaneous:
Articles in the Daily Boston Globe, Manchester Guardian, NY Times, etc

Trains to/from Treblinka

German and other documents:
Fahrplananordnungen - cited in Hilberg and in YVA P.26/ 126
Wolff-Ganzenmüller, Krüger-Himmler correspondence
schedules preserved by Zabecki

Wartime eyewitness accounts:
Puterman - anonymous escapee
Buzminsky
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Postwar eyewitness accounts:
Zabecki recollections
Stangl interview with Sereny
Lanzmann interview with Suchomel

Destination and murder

Wartime eyewitness ad other contemporary accounts (witnesses from different hometowns):
observations of S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150 - "rumored that in Treblinka, Warsaw Jews have supposedly been finished off")
Krzepicki AR Ii/295 and AR II/299
Nowodworski AR II/296
Rabinowicz - multiple testimonies during September 1942
Wiernik book
Strawczynski
Cymlich
Puterman - anonymous escapee
approximately 10 other Treblinka escapees/survivors
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
"Some Information about Treblinka" RII/298
Plotnicka et al, "Last Letter from Bedzin"

Trials:
approximately 20 Jewish Treblinka survivors in Düsseldorf trial
14 SS camp guards interrogated for, giving testimony in Düsseldorf trial
testimony in the Stangl trial
Wiernik trial testimony
Rajchman trial testimony - including above
Zabecki in multiple trials - including above

Postwar eyewitness accounts (from various places):
Glazar
Rajchman memoir
Willenberg
Grinberg
S Kohn
Bomba including Shoah interview
50+ other Treblinka escapees/survivors
Auerbach summary
Grossman summary

Polish underground:
sampling previously cited in this thread

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 2 ("Treblinka") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts"), AR II/192
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942

Physical studies:
Łukaszkiewicz
Sturdy Colls' team

(Where the citations are not obvious I've jotted a reference down. Engelking & Leociak, Silberklang, and others cite many additional sources - and for postwar trial testimony I've kept the listings general. Especially the Treblinka/destination sources are not meant to be exhaustive but rather to establish where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them there, e.g., 1943 "end destination" correspondence, OK Ostrow report, and other more general items not listed. I did not drill down into fate of Jews taken through the Warsaw Dulag to Bobruisk or other camps - nor did I drill down on Jews shot during roundups, although evidence for both is included in first section above.)
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:40 pm

When did this turn into a Treblinka thread? The subject is clearly to identify what is supposedly the best Believer evidence. Monstrous may add that the local Believers have been very unhelpful and dodging on this.

If SM have a particular interest in revisionist views on Treblinka, then Monstrous may recommend these books:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=8
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=28

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:56 pm

Well, you see, you claimed about the Jews deported to Treblinka that "many were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities." When asked to support this claim, you refused. So we kind of got stuck there.

Indeed this thread is about evidence. The post above gives some of the evidence from which it is to be concluded that the Germans removed 100s of 1000s of Jews from Warsaw mainly to Treblinka during July-September 1942 and that the Jews taken to Treblinka did not move on from there. The evidence was listed because you failed to tell us what evidence supported your transit claim. Your failure to tackle this post simply adds another to the list of posts you've ignored, all of them about the evidence for the fate of the Jews under the Nazis during World War II.

It is noted again that your notion of a dialogue is at best linking to MGK and Codoh, not replying to points and evidence under discussion. Of course, Mattogno and friends royally screw up on "steam," another of your claims, and provide no answers to what I posted showing their problem on this. What we've been waiting for is for you to tell us in your own words why you keep linking to their stuff given what Jeff, Tallboy and I have written in this subforum. You're every bit as feckless as David in the way you dodge challenges - this is not a compliment.

We can take as stipulated then that you have nothing in support of your claim about showers at Treblinka or transport on from Treblinka to other camps nor anything in the way of answers to the challenges we've made to the claim you pur out there about Treblinka "steam" and transit?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Evidence for where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them at the chief destination

Quick placeholder on Warsaw-Treblinka evidence, 1942, which I plan to clean up and add to . . . here I made a list of evidence that I've read or about which I've read in secondary accounts, pertaining to a) the clearance of Warsaw ghetto in 1942, b) the transports of Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka at that time, and c) the destination of the Warsaw transports:

a) Deportation

German orders, documents, reports, etc:
Himmler Dienstkalendar for July 1942 (meetings with Globocnik/Krüger, trip to Lublin 18 July)
Himmler 19 July 1942 order to HSSPF Krüger - no Jews to remain in GG by end of 1942 unless in collection camps in five designated cities resulting in 54 temporary"Jewish residential districts" along with camps for reduced Jewish population in GG (Winstone p 159, Longerich, pp 375-376)
Frank's Diensttagebuch for July 1942, quoted in Friedlander v2, p 427
appeal for volunteers to present themselves at Umschlagplatz (Polonsky p 41)
reports of governor of Warsaw district, Fischer (Hilberg v2, p 524, Engelking & Leociak p 712)
deportation order, Engelking & Leociak p 705
Judendat announcement, 5 September 1942, per German orders, Engelking & Leociak p 727 ("the cauldron")
report of Warsaw governer to State Secretary GG for June-July 1942, dated 15 August 1942, cited in Hilberg v2, p 525
German deportation statistics (BZIH 1)
Stroop report
Korherr report
NO-057, NO-064, YVA TR.10/869 on Reinhard headquarters including T-4 personnel (Silberklang)
Höfle personnel file YVA JM/3669 (Silberklang)
Höfle's deportation orders cited in Hilberg v2, p 523, Friedlander vol 2, p 428
organizational issues of deportation, YVA TR.10/813, YVA TR.10/756, cited in Silberklang pp 331-332)
German municipal offices reports on ghetto clearance, utilities, labor (Hilberg, v2, p 526
war diary, Armament Command Warsaw, September 1942 (Hilberg)
various compliance reports made by the Judenrat to the Germans (Hilberg)

Diaries and other contemporary accounts:
S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150
W Hosenfeld - Wehrmacht captain
Najberg
Czerniakow
Lewin
Kaplan
Ringelblum - notebooks
Seidman
Korczak
Mawult (Gombinsksi)
Stok
S Ernest
Sznapman
A Berman
Bryskier
Najberg
Puterman
Staszewska
Remba - in Ringelblum
Katznelson
Wyszynski
I Lichtensztajn
MM Kon
Perle
Opoczynski PH/2-22 and AR II/215
Gorny notes and R II/237
Graber AR II/432
S Gutgeld (?), "The Trans-Settlement" AR II/214
accounts written by shop workers AR II/284 and AR II/289
accounts by 3 rabbis AR II/281
"Fiirst Day of the Deportation 'Action . . .'" AR II/196
"The Days of the 'Trans-Settlement Action'" AR I/1509
"The Destruction of Warsaw" II/198
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
half dozen or so further anonymous accounts
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 1 ("Jewish Warsaw Is No More") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts") AR II/192
MM Kon, memorial piece on Rabbi Huberbrand AR II/282
"To the Jewish Masses in the Ghetto," warning notice AR II/333
article in Wiadomosci on liquidation of the Jewish hospital during the deportation, in Blatman, pp 473-476
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942 ("Frydrych mission")

Polish underground
reports of Jewish Affairs Bureau (Wolinski), Bureau of Information and Propaganda, Delegatura, AK High Command, Feiner (to Polish government), and intelligence group
several articles in Biuletyn Informacyjny (some based on information from correspondent Jerzy Grasberg in the ghetto) and in Informacja Biezaca, also articles in AK newspapers Apel, Wiadomosci Polskie, Kronika Tygodniowa, and Niepodleglosc
declaration of civil resistance directorate
PPR newspaper Trybuna Wolnosci
other reports written by Szymanowski quoted in Engelking & Leociak pp 724-725, 728

Postwar eyewitness accounts
Zuckerman (Cukierman)
Mazor
Berg
Edelman
Goldstein
Turkow
Berlinski
Szpilman
B Warm
S Adler
Reich-Ranicki
Tokar-Warsawski (YVA M-2/451

Census and demographic information:
Waldemar Schön, from a Lecture on the Steps Leading to the Establishment of the Warsaw, "The Appearance of the Jewish Quarter," 20 January 1941 (in Arad Holocaust documents)
registration counts - January 1941 ration cards, January 1942 WELZ
order of BuF for 1942 census in GG, 20 January 1942 (Silberklang, p 275)
order from Auerswald to Judenrat for street by street population data in Warsaw ghetto, 29 April 1942 (Hilberg v2, pp 522-523)
Oyneg Shabes population estimate - July 1942 (in Engelking & Leociak).

Other postwar testimonies:
Bor-Komorowski
Michalson interrogations (Silberklang)
Többens interrogation
Platkiewicz

Miscellaneous:
Articles in the Daily Boston Globe, Manchester Guardian, NY Times, etc

Trains to/from Treblinka

German and other documents:
Fahrplananordnungen - cited in Hilberg and in YVA P.26/ 126
Wolff-Ganzenmüller, Krüger-Himmler correspondence
schedules preserved by Zabecki

Wartime eyewitness accounts:
Puterman - anonymous escapee
Buzminsky
see also accounts by Warsaw escapees from Treblinka

Postwar eyewitness accounts:
Zabecki recollections
Stangl interview with Sereny
Lanzmann interview with Suchomel

Destination and murder

Wartime eyewitness ad other contemporary accounts (witnesses from different hometowns):
observations of S Rembek (Polish nationalist ) in Brenner, The Ethics of Witnessing, pp 149-150 - "rumored that in Treblinka, Warsaw Jews have supposedly been finished off")
Krzepicki AR Ii/295 and AR II/299
Nowodworski AR II/296
Rabinowicz - multiple testimonies during September 1942
Wiernik book
Strawczynski
Cymlich
Puterman - anonymous escapee
approximately 10 other Treblinka escapees/survivors
"The Last Stage of Resettlement Is Death" II/197
"Some Information about Treblinka" RII/298
Plotnicka et al, "Last Letter from Bedzin"

Trials:
approximately 20 Jewish Treblinka survivors in Düsseldorf trial
14 SS camp guards interrogated for, giving testimony in Düsseldorf trial
testimony in the Stangl trial
Wiernik trial testimony
Rajchman trial testimony - including above
Zabecki in multiple trials - including above

Postwar eyewitness accounts (from various places):
Glazar
Rajchman memoir
Willenberg
Grinberg
S Kohn
Bomba including Shoah interview
50+ other Treblinka escapees/survivors
Auerbach summary
Grossman summary

Polish underground:
sampling previously cited in this thread

Jewish reports and publications during the war:
"The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw" parts 2 ("Treblinka") and 3 ("Some Additional Facts"), AR II/192
Bund report published in Oyf der Wkh, 20 September 1942

Physical studies:
Łukaszkiewicz
Sturdy Colls' team

(Where the citations are not obvious I've jotted a reference down. Engelking & Leociak, Silberklang, and others cite many additional sources - and for postwar trial testimony I've kept the listings general. Especially the Treblinka/destination sources are not meant to be exhaustive but rather to establish where Warsaw Jews were taken in 1942 and what happened to them there, e.g., 1943 "end destination" correspondence, OK Ostrow report, and other more general items not listed. I did not drill down into fate of Jews taken through the Warsaw Dulag to Bobruisk or other camps - nor did I drill down on Jews shot during roundups, although evidence for both is included in first section above.)

You forgot to add Medung-51 and the OK Ostrow report to your "murder" section. Also ad in the Luther-Eichmann telex, not specifically referring to TII but indicative of how the AR camps functioned. The interrogation of Sepp Hiertrieter needs to be brought up as there was no pressure on him at all.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 3:22 pm

The Hirtreiter trial should have been included, thanks. I didn't include the OK Ostrow report, which could be on the list, for sure, but I didn't try being exhaustive for the evidence of killing at Treblinka (e.g., Globus's accounting of valuables and Franz's photo album not listed). I also didn't include indirect or general stuff (like Himmler's comment on Jews sent to camps that "there too they shall disappear in accordance with the wish of the Fuhrer" or whatever his words were). That said, we should keep adding to this for sure - no reason not to build the whole thing out! To drill down deeper for Treblinka, there's the HC White Paper for starters.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:23 pm

Additional evidence in the form of recorded statements by A German counsul General in Italy, the testimony of Morgen, and the Pfoch Diary.

The General Counsul was quite explicit.
Officials in Italian-controlled territories were aware of the intended fate of deported Jews. In August 1942, the Nazis requested the handing over of Croatian Jews who were under Italian occupation. The Minister of State at the German Embassy, Prince Otto von Bismarck, “stated that it was a question of several thousands of people and led me to understand that such measures would lead, in practice, to their dispersion and liquidation [“annihilation” in the original but lined out].”[

Jeff_36 will consult with Dr. Terry at some point on the official protocols of Hans Frank's GG administration.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:34 pm

Jeff_36 presents the following ultimatum to monstrous. In this post here, Jeff_36 refuted your speculations on an alleged post war Soviet conspiracy to liquidate and imprison "resettled" Jews. Jeff_36 used, among other things, the testimony of NKVD Lieutenant-General Leonid Raikhmann and a degree of common sense. Rather than address Jeff_36's points, monstrous evaded the challenge and changed the subject once again.

Jeff_36 challenges monstrous to address that post. Failure to do so will result in him being put on ignore.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:56 pm

Good luck with all that, Jeff; he has a long list of questions to get to - yours, Tallboy's, and mine. But he can link to Metapedia, do victory jigs, and stick his elbows in his eyes and his head up his . . . . I agree with you, he's as tedious as David, every bit as much a "cooler" / discussion killer as good ole David - Monstrous doesn't appear to be here to discuss and debate the history but rather to spam links for his faves, relevant or not. Maybe he's paid by the hit for links he spams?

As I wrote a week and a half ago, I'm with you: We can wait - and patiently. But we will want to finish this up before going on to whatever topic Monstrous tries using to divert attention from his multiple failures on the question he raised about Treblinka.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:18 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Additional evidence in the form of recorded statements by A German counsul General in Italy, the testimony of Morgen, and the Pfoch Diary.

The General Counsul was quite explicit.
Officials in Italian-controlled territories were aware of the intended fate of deported Jews. In August 1942, the Nazis requested the handing over of Croatian Jews who were under Italian occupation. The Minister of State at the German Embassy, Prince Otto von Bismarck, “stated that it was a question of several thousands of people and led me to understand that such measures would lead, in practice, to their dispersion and liquidation [“annihilation” in the original but lined out].”
Not Treblinka per se, though, right?

Pfoch traced train from Siedlce to Treblinka, not from Warsaw, which is why for this exercise I didn't mention him - but you're right, I should have included Pfoch's diary as it directly responds to the Nazi (denier) cover story: "They say Treblinka is a 'delousing camp.' When we reach Treblinka station the train is next to us again - there is such an awful smell of decomposing corpses in the station, some of us vomit. The begging for water intensifies, the indiscriminate shooting by the guards continues.....Three hundred thousand ahve been assembled here. Every day ten or fifteen thousand are gassed and burned. Any comment is totally superfluous..." Showing that deniers to an extent simply parrot Nazi propaganda. Also, expanding to Siedlce, Radom, Czestochowa, etc would be worthy in its own right.

In the Morgen thread we discussed how his information on AR (and Treblinka) was not very much and not direct, IIRC. No?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:07 am

Re Morgen: I get it, but he attested to the reality of AR whilst acting as a Haversback-esque KL apologist and shredding the lampshade nonsense. His recollections are undoubtedly genuine.

Bismark: more to do with Nazi policy in general IMO

Pfoch: It shows how much Treblinka was not a transit camp. We might want to bring up the report from the German officer who passed by Belzec as well in order to establish a pattern on AR in general.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Xcalibur » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:07 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Good luck with all that, Jeff; he has a long list of questions to get to - yours, Tallboy's, and mine. But he can link to Metapedia, do victory jigs, and stick his elbows in his eyes and his head up his . . . . I agree with you, he's as tedious as David, every bit as much a "cooler" / discussion killer as good ole David - Monstrous doesn't appear to be here to discuss and debate the history but rather to spam links for his faves, relevant or not. Maybe he's paid by the hit for links he spams?

As I wrote a week and a half ago, I'm with you: We can wait - and patiently. But we will want to finish this up before going on to whatever topic Monstrous tries using to divert attention from his multiple failures on the question he raised about Treblinka.



Let's all be thankful.... landed a REALLY dumb one this time. I kinda feel sorry for it... reminds me of a perch flailing in the bottom of a canoe.... poor thing can't decide whether or not to jump back in the water or hang around... waiting for someone to club it.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:38 am

reminds me of a non inbred version of Gerdes: a dummy with an ego.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:05 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote: No. If Jews were pissed at Germans they had more gain in every way by adhering to the gas chamber story. The Soviets involved could still be persecuted for war crimes after 1991. The Germans involved would have kept quiet or they would themselves have been prosecuted for war crimes by using POWs at the front line.
Two problems with this:
1. German soldiers who were not involved with Organisation Todt but who saw the scads of Jews and heard that they had been transferred through TBS would be able to testify of that fact.
2. Soviets would not have been "persecuted" after 1991.
Also, most Germans, Soviets, and Jews would not have been aware of the "big picture" but would only have been aware of relatively small groups of Jews in a particular area.
1.38 million Jews. That's a lot. Since it would require a cover-up the Soviet soldiers would be suspicious. It would absolutely have come out in the Khrushchev Thaw. You do know about the Khrushchev Thaw right? :roll:
Monstrous suspects that Stalin may have been paranoid and would therefore have killed off the higher officers who knew of the "big picture", both German and Soviet ones, in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
What Generals? When? I know most of the names of the senior Soviet figures at that time. Many of Beria's NKVD deputies were put on trial after Stalin's death in 1953. They would have testified about the cover-up. They testified about the GULAG's, the purges, the mass deportations, and the murders of the Jewish Anti Fascist Committee, why not about this "cover up"? Viktor Abakumov, Voselvod Mehkrulov, and Leonid Raihkmann were three such NKVD officers put on trial after Stalin's death their role in Stalinist crimes. Raikhmann in particular, as head of the Investigation Department was responsible for covering up the Katyn massacre and would have played a leading role in this potential situation. As an ethnic Jew himself he would have perhaps harbored some resentment at what was done. He said nothing. In fact he was interviewed in 1990, shortly before his death from cancer, and would have had a perfect opportunity to let this secret fly before leaving the world. He said nothing about a cover up of Jewish resettlement, but did talk in great detail about actual Stalinist crimes, including his participation in Katyn, which was still a taboo topic at the time.

If it would not have come out in the Khrushchev Thaw, it would have come out in the early 1990's.

You come off as incredibly ignorant on the realities in the USSR at the time. :budo:
Even the Believers state that there were some Jews who worked as forced laborers so some German soldiers witnessing or being involved in this would not have been considered notable or sensitive.

The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc). Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew. Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing. As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed. If anyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies. Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:26 pm

Not to intervene in this horribly one-sided discussion, I will simply point out the following about Monstrous's continuing silliness:
The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc). Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew. Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing. As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed. If anyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies. Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.
No better example that I can think of than the denier resort to coulda/woulda/shoulda. Raising the question, does this clown know anything at all? Or is his ignorance the reason for his allergy to discussing evidence, the purported thread topic?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:02 pm

UPDATED LIST OF QUESTIONS MONSTROUS CONTINUES TO IGNORE

What is up with you, Monstrous? Afraid? Uninformed? Unable to find a link even tangentially appropriate? Waiting instructions? Remember, you've dodged the following . . . and the open questions list keeps growing the more you dodge . . .

1. You were asked for an explanation of what you meant by "steam-gas", and as to why a "steam-gas" version of murder at Treblinka is "more plausible" than killing by means of engine exhaust. You had said that you "will contribute" such an explanation but haven't done so.

2. You were asked about Treblinka to spell out how "forced group showering and delousing using Zyklon B, steam, and/or chlorine were misinterpreted as killing methods as rumors milled around in the camps" and to prove your claim about this - you've not contributed a single remark regarding Treblinka or Einsatz Reinhard camps.

3. Related to #2, you were asked to show how the early reports about extermination at Treblinka - with special reference to sources mentioned in the thread (e.g., Polish underground reports) - were due to camp prisoners from poor eastern European communities misinterpreting forced group “showers” and delousing procedures.

4. You were requested to explain how disposal of 1000s of corpses and extraction of dental gold from corpses at Treblinka, described by Kzrepicki, Wiernik, and others, really had to do with showering/delousing of camp prisoners.

5. Related to #4, you were asked whether delousing and showering usually lead to the bathers dying and surrendering their dental gold (it was noted in this regard that elsewhere in the impoverished east, Jewish inmates of the Nazis did not observe corpses and dental gold extraction resulting from the operation of delousing centers). You've given us no clarification about any of this.

6. You were asked whether hygienic baths and delousing usually involve the creation of corpses to be disposed of, removing corpses to ditches, and the extraction of gold teeth from the bathers.

7. You were asked to prove that many Jews were transported from Treblinka to other camps during fall 1942 (you'd written about the AR camps that "many [Jews taken to them] were transported on to other camps after hygienic and delousing activities, never to be seen again"), the period from which a sampling of Polish underground reports was posted in the thread as well as the period from which a few reports of "steam" were made. You still need to define "many" (I do hope you don't mean a few 1000) and tell us to which camps many Jews were transported from the AR camps.

8. You were asked what your {!#%@} point is.

9. You have yet to address the status of Treblinka II as a final destination, as stated by documentary evidence, and, as related issues, you were asked "Warsaw. Jews. Where. Did. They. Go. !??!??!!??!" and how you account for a population of Jews larger than the population of Warsaw beyond their deportation to the AR camps. You've given us no evidence that a large % of the Jews deported to the AR camps were subsequently transported to other camps.

10. You were asked if you have bailed out of the resettlement thesis in favor of a forced-labor-for-defense proposition? If so, you need to account for the large numbers of deportees (not just some 1000s), where they went, whom they worked for, and so on, as previously requested. In line with this, you were asked to please provide evidence of non-working Jews sent to the "east."

11. You were asked how approximately 1.4M missing Jews can be called a 'minor' problem for revisionists? A population of Jews gone missing that is larger than the population of the largest city in Poland (Warsaw) is deemed not to be a problem?

12. Regarding Warsaw Jews, said to have been transited through Warsaw, you've been asked about evidence for your claims, specifically evidence to answer these questions: what was the Jewish population of Warsaw in July 1942? approximately how many Warsaw Jews were deported from Warsaw during July-September 1942 and how do we know? where were Jews from Warsaw taken during the weeks from 22 July to 21 September 1942 and how do we know? about how many Jews were sent through Treblinka to any place else during 1942 and how do we know? approximately how many Jews were deported from Warsaw in 1943, to what places and when, and how do we know? roughly, what was the Jewish population of Warsaw by the end of summer 1943?

14. You were also asked about Warsaw, given your analogy to Soviet war dead, if the problem of what (approximately) happened to 100s of 1000s of Jews who lived in Warsaw in early July 1942 unknowable and unsolvable.

15. You were requested to tell us what testimony given by the accused Treblinka guards explained the transport of so many Jews "to other camps," being sure also to tell us to which camps, when, and under what circumstances the accused said Jews were taken from Treblinka.

16. You were asked, given your diversionary attempts, whether we can take as stipulated thus that you have nothing in support of your claim about showers at Treblinka or transport on from Treblinka to other camps nor anything in the way of answers to the challenges we've made to the claim you put out there about Treblinka "steam" and transit.

17. You were challenged to support your speculations about an alleged post war Soviet conspiracy to liquidate and imprison "resettled" Jews; instead, you pretended to reply by offering - in a thread about evidence - nothing more than additional speculation.

Seems like time for Maryzilla to come over and give you a cheer or two for your outstanding success. Eh?
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Not to intervene in this horribly one-sided discussion, I will simply point out the following about Monstrous's continuing silliness:
The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc). Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew. Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing. As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed. If anyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies. Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.
No better example that I can think of than the denier resort to coulda/woulda/shoulda. Raising the question, does this clown know anything at all? Or is his ignorance the reason for his allergy to discussing evidence, the purported thread topic?
S/he seems to imply seeing a "big picture". Maybe it's a monstrous polyp?
.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous can present evidence (as learning experience for SM Monstrous will not provide page number but instead ask that the already mentioned pdf search utility be used to find the quotations):

"On 1 January 1943 The Jewish Chronicle reported: 1556
“Czech Jews are now being sent from the notorious Terezin fortress-
ghetto to areas near the Eastern front. Everyone between the ages of 18
and 45 is made to work on the building of fortifications. There is evidence
that Czech Jews had been working on fortifications within 35 miles of Sta-
lingrad.”
Jesus wept.

What on earth does this tidbit have to do with a discussion about Treblinka? I, and anyone marginally conversant with German Jewish policy during the war, can cite a ton of evidence of Jews put to the work in the east by the Germans (DG-IV, etc), but none of it is germane to your claims about the Treblinka camp, which you were asked about before you replied with a couple of inane posts.
To underscore this point, by chance this morning I read an essay on the Final Solution in Austria. I was reminded of Monstrous's floundering here when I read a sentence detailing the reversal in policy for Jewish forced laborers during 1944, when Jews were "coming back to the Reich" for slave labor, the author citing Hungarian Jews sent to Mauthausen beginning in May that year and 15,000 Hungarian exchange Jews from various ghettos who were taken to Strasshof camp for forced labor in Vienna and in the Lower Danube:
A third group consisted of the so-called Leihjuden, employed to dig trenches for military fortifications.
The author (Albert Lichtblau, in The Greater German Reich and the Jews, Gruner & Osterlow, eds, p 59) doesn't specify where these Jews were assigned, but in 1944 it was not in the Russian east, we can be sure of that. The point is that while there are missing details and some information gaps, historians know a great deal about Jewish labor deployments, down to 1000s and 10s of 1000s on particular assignments. They are not in need to Monstrous's speculation, pulled from his ass, about where millions of Jews "went."
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:29 pm

Monstrous wrote: Even the Believers state that there were some Jews who worked as forced laborers so some German soldiers witnessing or being involved in this would not have been considered notable or sensitive.
A million plus would have hardly been typical. It would have shown up in general reports from higher commands. Von Mannstien and Gudarian both wrote books about their experiences in the war. As extremely high ranking Generals they would have known about such basic frontline considerations as trench digging and labor allocation. Mannstien was also an unrepentant nazi. They made no mention of what you say happened.

After the 1991 fall of communism, many Russian Jews moved to Israel. This included many red army veterans of WWII. They would have seen the piles of dead Jews killed "by Soviet artillery" and would likely have witnessed NKVD men floating around telling everyone to shut up. As Jews they would have been outraged. In the 90's free from Communism and living away from Russia, they could have told all if they wanted to. They did not.
The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc).
Who? Name names! Molotov? Mikoyan?
Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew.

Jew or not Raikhmann was responsible for the Katyn coverup and precedent indicates that he would have been involved in this scenario. The Soviets had no problem encouraging ethnic cannibalism btw: many of the officials responsible for the Holodomar were Ukrainians themselves. The Yevsekstii, a CPSU committee that terrorized Jewish communities and imprisoned many Rabbis was comprised of ethnic Jews. It was perceived by some as a test of loyalty. Stalin made Lazar Kaganovich sign off on his 1948-53 antisemitic purge. Raikhmann being involved would not be out of the ordinary.
Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing.
Who would have known then? Viktor Abukumov? He was responsible for carrying out the antisemitic purge of the early 50's so maybe him. He made no mention of any coverup of resettlement in his trial.
Name me some names!
As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed.
Really? Stalin basically killed most of the NKVD in the mid thirties and then again in the late 30's, but there were no purges of NKVD directors from 1945 to 1953. A lot of them were killed in 1953-56 but they were put on trial beforehand and made no mention of any coverup of resettlement.
If nyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies.

Dude, they admitted to the Katyn massacre and opened up their archives. They released many documents dealing orders from Stalin himself. You clearly no nothing about the Russian mentality, why release documents featuring Stalin signing off on executions of Russian citizens only to cover up a crime committed against foreign Jews? Also see my example of Red army veterans in Israel in the 90's. Out of the reach of the FSB, free to say whatever.
Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.
Glasnost. It was a period of intense soul searching and revelations, It would have very much been in the national interest.
in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
What GULAG camps? Where?
Kolyma? Vokruta? SLON? You must be specific. There is no record of such a transfer.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:52 pm

Also: there were A TON of GULAG survivors. They mention a lot of Russian Jews being sent to the camps in 1949-50 during the antisemitic purge but they make no mention of enormous numbers of foreign Jews being deported being sent there in 1945-46. The whole camp system was full of rumors, actions carried out in one camp would be whispered about somewhere else in a matter of time. Such an massive action would be subject to a lot of chatter. Why was no mention made of it in memoirs of GULAG prisoners?

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:09 am

Hans wrote:
Monstrous wrote:PS-501
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndwagon.html

The Becker Document (501-PS), 16 May 1942 .................. 40
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=24
Monstrous,

you have really no luck these days. Incidently, I spent the past few weeks just to check the arguments brought forward by Alvarez, Marais and Weckert. And among us: it doesn't look good for them.

Alvarez top three technical arguments to dismiss the letter Becker to Rauff of 16 May 1942 are false:

1. Saurer were always Diesel (and Diesel doesn't kill)

The trucks produced in the Saurer factory in Paris were mostly gasoline powered (see Saurer. Vom Ostschweizer Kleinbetrieb zum internationalen Technologiekonzern, 2003, no page numbers).

2. Saurer had "vacuum-assisted hydraulic brakes", and the "combined hydraulic-pneumatic brakes" mentioned in the letter are fictional.

A combined pneumatic-hydraulic brake existed since the 30s in Europe and was also utilized in trucks in Germany (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 111). Saurer were probably the first to introduce this new technique in their trucks (see Ein Jahrhundert Automobiltechnik: Nutzfahrzeuge, section on brakes).

3. "'Manchete'...is not part of the German everyday language nor of technical lingo"

In contrary, "Manschette" was a proper technical term to describe sealings in the hydraulic part of the brake (see ATE Bremsenhandbuch, 1938, p. 82).
Thanks to Hans, we have this very helpful compilation of gas vans documents. (Be sure to click on the transcription and translation "reveal" buttons.) Excellent, Hans, I've been reading through these again.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:26 am

a hilarious attempt to change the subject by the daft rabbit in the comment section.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:54 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote: Even the Believers state that there were some Jews who worked as forced laborers so some German soldiers witnessing or being involved in this would not have been considered notable or sensitive.
A million plus would have hardly been typical. It would have shown up in general reports from higher commands. Von Mannstien and Gudarian both wrote books about their experiences in the war. As extremely high ranking Generals they would have known about such basic frontline considerations as trench digging and labor allocation. Mannstien was also an unrepentant nazi. They made no mention of what you say happened.

After the 1991 fall of communism, many Russian Jews moved to Israel. This included many red army veterans of WWII. They would have seen the piles of dead Jews killed "by Soviet artillery" and would likely have witnessed NKVD men floating around telling everyone to shut up. As Jews they would have been outraged. In the 90's free from Communism and living away from Russia, they could have told all if they wanted to. They did not.
The individuals seeing the big picture would have been few and would have a self-interest in not revealing this (war crimes, etc).
Who? Name names! Molotov? Mikoyan?
Stalin not have told most of his associates that he was sending the surviving Jews to Siberia and he would certainly not have given this task to a Jew.

Jew or not Raikhmann was responsible for the Katyn coverup and precedent indicates that he would have been involved in this scenario. The Soviets had no problem encouraging ethnic cannibalism btw: many of the officials responsible for the Holodomar were Ukrainians themselves. The Yevsekstii, a CPSU committee that terrorized Jewish communities and imprisoned many Rabbis was comprised of ethnic Jews. It was perceived by some as a test of loyalty. Stalin made Lazar Kaganovich sign off on his 1948-53 antisemitic purge. Raikhmann being involved would not be out of the ordinary.
Most of Stalin's circle would know nothing.
Who would have known then? Viktor Abukumov? He was responsible for carrying out the antisemitic purge of the early 50's so maybe him. He made no mention of any coverup of resettlement in his trial.
Name me some names!
As suggested by MGK, the limited numbers involved in this operation may themselves have been killed after the Jews had been killed.
Really? Stalin basically killed most of the NKVD in the mid thirties and then again in the late 30's, but there were no purges of NKVD directors from 1945 to 1953. A lot of them were killed in 1953-56 but they were put on trial beforehand and made no mention of any coverup of resettlement.
If nyone survived this, also the post-Stalin Soviet Union would have no interest in contradicting the official Holocaust story and would not have allowed such testimonies.

Dude, they admitted to the Katyn massacre and opened up their archives. They released many documents dealing orders from Stalin himself. You clearly no nothing about the Russian mentality, why release documents featuring Stalin signing off on executions of Russian citizens only to cover up a crime committed against foreign Jews? Also see my example of Red army veterans in Israel in the 90's. Out of the reach of the FSB, free to say whatever.
Also the post-Soviet Union Russia would have little interest in such testimonies, assuming anyone still survived at this time.
Glasnost. It was a period of intense soul searching and revelations, It would have very much been in the national interest.
in addition to sending the surviving Jews to Siberian camps to die, as suggested by MGK.
What GULAG camps? Where?
Kolyma? Vokruta? SLON? You must be specific. There is no record of such a transfer.
Of course, NS generals would not state having participated in war crimes.

Of course, Soviet generals would not state having participated in war crimes.

Of course, it would not be easy to see if corpses from artillery were Jews or not.

Of course, a genocide is a much more sensitive subject than gulags, so the Soviet Union/Russia would be reluctant to talk about it, and maybe have to pay reparations to Israel.

Of course, MGK states that Jewish genocidal killings by Stalin would have taken place outside the normal gulag system, so it would not be in any gulag records, or have been seen by any normal gulag personal or prisoners.

Of course, if Monstrous may for once be allowed to make a speculation, Stalin may have given such a genocidal task to Soviet POWs returning from Germany, they were anyhow considered traitors for having capitulated, and if themselves later killed this could be concealed as either having died in German POW camps or as having been killed as traitors for having capitulated.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:49 pm

Monstrous wrote: Of course, NS generals would not state having participated in war crimes.
Uh, no doofus, the presence of massive amounts of Jewish laborers would let his beloved 3r off the hook.
Of course, Soviet generals would not state having participated in war crimes.
They admitted to a lot of war crimes, including crimes against Russians. Why not admit to a coverup of deportation of foreign Jews?

Of course, it would not be easy to see if corpses from artillery were Jews or not.
Do you read your own source? they would have been wearing black work smock with green armbands. Most OT laborers, IIRC, wore uniforms.
Of course, a genocide is a much more sensitive subject than gulags, so the Soviet Union/Russia would be reluctant to talk about it, and maybe have to pay reparations to Israel.
They owned up to Katyn and the Ukrainian Famine, the latter of which killed almost as many people as the Shoah.
Of course, MGK states that Jewish genocidal killings by Stalin would have taken place outside the normal gulag system, so it would not be in any gulag records, or have been seen by any normal gulag personal or prisoners.
Why do this outside the system that he had used to great lengths on the Kulaks, Kalmyks, Koreans, Balkars, Chechnyans or Pontic Greeks?

If outside the GULAG: where? A mass shooting? They couldn't keep the Katyn massacre (22,000 dead) under wraps, and yet you propose that they could have pulled off a mass shooting of a million people without so much as a whisper of a hint of a rumor? Go back to elementary school bitch.
Of course, if Monstrous may for once be allowed to make a speculation, Stalin may have given such a genocidal task to Soviet POWs returning from Germany, they were anyhow considered traitors for having capitulated, and if themselves later killed this could be concealed as either having died in German POW camps or as having been killed as traitors for having capitulated.
Many Soviet POW's who later wound up in GULAG's survived. Many were interviewed for books and articles. How come they didn't testify about it in interviews many years later?

You have yet to address

- the testimony of Leonid Raikhmann
- Why no Soviet soldiers reported it in interviews after the fall of communism.
- lack of any rumors at all
- not mentioned in the Khrushchev thaw, despite the fact that Israel was an enemy of the USSR at the time and the Soviets would have leaped at the chance to {!#%@} up an adversary.
- my question of who oversaw the operation. I need a name. I know the names of most of the NKVD senior officers at the time.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:48 pm

Monstrous wrote:. . . if Monstrous may for once be allowed to make a speculation . . .
for once?!?!?! bwaaahaaaaa . . .
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Monstrous » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:25 pm

Monstrous have tentatively identified a problematic condition among the Believes here. An excessive small-mindedness, narrow-mindedness, and obsession with petty details like train schedules. Instead Believers, look up, walk a mile backwards, and the see big picture. Like Monstrous. Like Stalin.

Do you really think that Stalin worried about recording for posterity the minute details of a genocide? Of course not, if a totalitarian dictator really wanted to conceal a genocide, there would be very little evidence left.

There is also the failure to see the big picture of enormous and enormously unclear non-Jewish causalities (20-60 million ???) in Stalin's Soviet Union. Add to this Black Box the numerous deportations many entire peoples, labor camps, secrecy, total information control, active falsification of history, and so on, and it seems, again considering the big picture, that, say, even 1-2 million Jews could be killed by Stalin without leaving any major traces behind.

The initial deportations of Jews may have been concealed as "ordinary" gulag deportations of political dissidents and so on, following the same procedure until arriving in Siberia where the trains with Jews were instead directed to non-gulag locations where the Jews were rather quickly killed in some non-ridiculous fashion (that is, not by Zyklon B or carbon monoxide). The bodies may have been turned into ash and dumped into rivers. Thereafter, the killers are themselves killed, disguised as a nuclear bomb test, or whatever. The NKVD is given a list of persons to immediately execute (any person elsewhere being involved in the operation). No paper documentation explaining what happened is ever created. Only a few high ranking persons afterwards knew exactly what happened, say just Stalin and Beria, and they all keep quiet as being directly involved in a genocide.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:34 pm

Again, leaving Jeff and you to debate the particulars . . .
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous have tentatively identified a problematic condition among the Believes here. An excessive small-mindedness, narrow-mindedness, and obsession with petty details like train schedules.
Ah, when you cottoned to the fact that discussing of "really the best" evidence didn't work out for you, you decided trying to "rule" evidence, like train schedules (or orders or camp records or demographic information or official correspondence), out of order . . . on account of evidence being "petty details." It would be funny if it weren't so mind-numbingly tedious.

Make up your {!#%@} mind. What do you really want to discuss? Everyone but you has been treating this thread as one on, er, like you said in the OP, "evidence." Now you come along and show us what happens when you ingest handfuls of peyote buds and you start riffing about mysterious events that no one witnessed, extraterrestrial forces, black boxes, nuclear detonations, and "whatever."
Monstrous wrote:. . . the see big picture. Like Monstrous. Like Stalin.
Well, yeah, ok, you + Stalin, peas in a pod. But if you mean "big picture" like unsourced speculation and what you imagine might have or would have happened on Planet Claire or Metaluna or whatever lunatic world you inhabit, no thanks.
Monstrous wrote:Do you really think that Stalin worried about recording for posterity the minute details of a genocide? Of course not, if a totalitarian dictator really wanted to conceal a genocide, there would be very little evidence left.
So what? There is very little evidence for much of that which didn't happen. Your method is funny - you think that, in cases where you are too ignorant to discover evidence, you can simply make up "scenarios" that please your Nazi fantasies or indulge your passion for hallucinogens. But amongst grown-ups, and amongst real human beings, you don't just get to wade into what you can't find evidence for - drop a pill - and, presto, change-o, declare what "would" have happened. To figure out what happened you need . . . what was this thread about, again?
Monstrous wrote:There is also the failure to see the big picture of enormous and enormously unclear non-Jewish causalities (20-60 million ???) in Stalin's Soviet Union. Add to this Black Box the numerous deportations many entire peoples, labor camps, secrecy, total information control, active falsification of history, and so on, and it seems, again considering the big picture, that, say, even 1-2 million Jews could be killed by Stalin without leaving any major traces behind.
Irrelevant. How do casualty estimates for areas in the east always under Soviet control, until the demise of the Soviets, explain casualties in the German sphere during the war, for which we have evidence? And why - we know but I'll ask anyway - do you keep dodging discussion of specific cases in favor of gross generalizations and piss-poor comparisons? As you've been asked, over and over, do you know anything about what happened to the Jews of Warsaw, Łodz, Riga, Lublin, Vilnius, Kaunas, Bialystok, and so on? You do realize that we're talking about actual people, not Daleks or Jubjub birds.

And don't try telling us that Stalin's falsification of history and a black box far to the east has a thing to do with this; crap like that might work with your credulous CODOH pals but in the adult world it doesn't even warrant a second look.
Monstrous wrote:The initial deportations of Jews may have been concealed as "ordinary" gulag deportations of political dissidents and so on, following the same procedure until arriving in Siberia where the trains with Jews were instead directed to non-gulag locations where the Jews were rather quickly killed in some non-ridiculous fashion (that is, not by Zyklon B or carbon monoxide). The bodies may have been turned into ash and dumped into rivers. Thereafter, the killers are themselves killed, disguised as a nuclear bomb test flying saucers from Antarctica, or whatever. The NKVD is given a list of persons to immediately execute (any person elsewhere being involved in the operation). No paper documentation explaining what happened is ever created. Only a few high ranking persons afterwards knew exactly what happened, say just Stalin and Beria, and they all keep quiet as being directly involved in a genocide.
"may have" again . . . in the "evidence" thread! Basically, you're telling us that the only evidence for your hallucinations is stuff neither you nor anyone else knows a thing about - a lack of documents, a supposed conspiracy of silence, information control in a region where there's no evidence the people we're discussing ever went (with plenty of evidence that they went somewhere else), and an absence of major traces! LOL You don't need no stinkin' evidence, nor do you want to talk about evidence, not when you have the "big picture" conjured through the wondrous power of your mind-bending little Nazi-freak pills.

By the way, thank me, ftfy.

Do you even know who deported the Jews, from where, when? Do you think we don't know . . . ? Have you thought for a millisecond about conditions at the front? Argh, never mind . . . one can't educate a lava lamp.

"disguised as a nuclear bomb test, or whatever" . . . ROFL

Sigh, Jeff, this useless piece of furniture is all yours . . .
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:55 pm

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous have tentatively identified a problematic condition among the Believes here. An excessive small-mindedness, narrow-mindedness, and obsession with petty details like train schedules. Instead Believers, look up, walk a mile backwards, and the see big picture. Like Monstrous. Like Stalin.
You have
1. compared yourself with Stalin.
2. basically dismissed clear factual refutations with "durrr, me no know".
Do you really think that Stalin worried about recording for posterity the minute details of a genocide? Of course not, if a totalitarian dictator really wanted to conceal a genocide, there would be very little evidence left.
Documentary evidence for deportations of Koreans, Kalmyks, and many other populations survive. Have you read The Gulag Archipelago? I thought it was a favorite for deniers. Rumors abounded in the GULAG system, a massive deportation would have been impossible to conceal.

There is also the failure to see the big picture of enormous and enormously unclear non-Jewish causalities (20-60 million ???) in Stalin's Soviet Union. Add to this Black Box the numerous deportations many entire peoples, labor camps, secrecy, total information control, active falsification of history, and so on, and it seems, again considering the big picture, that, say, even 1-2 million Jews could be killed by Stalin without leaving any major traces behind.
We can trace the exact locations where Baltic Germans and Chechnyans were sent, when they were sent there and so on. There is no "Black Box". The uncertainty is over Soviet Civillian casualties due to German enforced policies of hunger, bombing, massacres ect. ect.
The initial deportations of Jews may have been concealed as "ordinary" gulag deportations of political dissidents and so on, following the same procedure until arriving in Siberia where the trains with Jews were instead directed to non-gulag locations where the Jews were rather quickly killed
Deportations of Soviet Jews did not start until 1949. Do you ask us to believe that Stalin had 1.2 million Jews standing around for four years?

I again state that information on GULAG's is fairly clear. A massive killing operation like this would have spread like wildfire, much like the AR camps did. Everyone in eastern Poland knew and the same would be true for whatever prison this would have been done in.

Why was this not mentioned in any exhaustive Russian historical work on Stalinist crimes?
Thereafter, the killers are themselves killed, disguised as a nuclear bomb test, or whatever.


The NKVD is given a list of persons to immediately execute (any person elsewhere being involved in the operation).
We know the names of NKVD officers who carried out the first wave of purges in 1935-36 who were subsequently killed in the second wave 1936-38 in a pattern reminiscent of what you allege. Examples include Israel Leplevsky, Pavel Boulanov, Gregory Prokofiev, and Eudard Berzin. We know that a similar procedure was done to their killers, such as Yefim Yefominov, Mikhail Frisnovsky, and Leonid Zakovsky.

I have named those examples just off the top of my head. Can you name the NKVD officers who carried out this alleged extermination of Jews, and can you name me the NKVD officers who purged the killers? because thousands of historians of the NKVD, with access to massive personnel records have not.

I will reiterate that none of the NKVD Generals put on trial after Stalin's death mentioned anything like this occurring. Leonid Raikhmann, speaking on his own free will in 1990 did not mention it among the litany of Stalinist crimes he recalled.
Only a few high ranking persons afterwards knew exactly what happened, say just Stalin and Beria, and they all keep quiet as being directly involved in a genocide.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was waiting for you to bring up Beria. It was a trap and you walked into it.

Beria, although quite antisemitic in his personal behavior, was a political ally of the Jewish anti fascist committee and was involved in selling arms to Israel in 1947, in hopes that the Ben-Gurion's government would be socialist and that it would join the Warsaw pact. Suffice to say that it blew up in his face when Israel clearly declared itself an American ally. From the end of the war onward, Beria and Stalin had a adversarial relationship. Stalin chose to deal more and more with Mehkrulov or with Abukamov instead of Beria. Do you think that He would assign a genocidal action against the Jews to a man who was noted as an ally of the JAFC?!? Beria would have opposed such a plan (due to political and alliance related considerations, nit morals, of which he had none). Indeed, when initiating the antisemitic purge of 1949-53, Stalin bypassed Beria and had Abukamov carry it out.

I will reiterate that Abukamov made no mention of this genocide when he was on trial.

Once more, you still have yet to address:

- the testimony of Leonid Raikhmann
- Why no Soviet soldiers reported it in interviews after the fall of communism.
- lack of any rumors at all
- not mentioned in the Khrushchev thaw, despite the fact that Israel was an enemy of the USSR at the time and the Soviets would have leaped at the chance to {!#%@} up an adversary.
- my question of who oversaw the operation. I need a name. I know the names of most of the NKVD senior officers at the time.

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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:56 pm

Monstrous has cribbed from his heroes to try selling folks here on what he's dubbed “the military labor theory,” which posits that millions of Jews (2 million according to Monstrous) were among those not exterminated but rather were sent east to work on behalf of the German military (often doing unskilled manual labor, such as digging trenches, carrying away the earth). According to Monstrous, quoting a German document, such labor was performed in “the area of Russian operations for the carrying out of important constructional undertakings” on the Reichsautobahn and other projects. Monstrous speculates that what happened to the Jews in the east is a “black box” and a mystery and that, presumably, the Jews, who were left in the east after the German defeat, were killed by the Soviets, the world's only killers of all time ever, who then also killed the killers of the 2 million Jews, using an atomic-bomb test blast to get rid of witnesses to this great crime, evidence for which is lacking but, well, it all fits into the big picture.

And, {!#%@} all, if there weren’t many Jews set to work for the German war effort - so great a number of them that we can stumble across 10s of 1000s of them in a distinct cluster of camps supporting the German war effort in what might fit "the military labor theory." Damn, don't you hate it when that happens?

The situation and work of these 10s of 1000s of Jews were as follows:

- Jews were specially trained as laborers for war German production and construction projects
- labor deployments included the Autobahn, arms factories/shops (over 40 of these were established), submarine and aircraft production, munitions plants, brickworks, light-bulb and sugar workshops for the military and so on
- labor was forced, under harsh conditions
- Jewish workers were taken from a number of ghettos in the region
- there were opportunities, as Monstrous said, for unskilled workers, for workers who could do heavy work (Jewish men on the roads and construction projects), and for workers who could do manufacturing jobs (mainly women in workshops)
- under the long hours and harsh regime, with little food, the Jewish workers were weakened and many succumbed to illness, so that large numbers could no longer perform (they became “unfit”)
- the local Gestapo ordered that the Jews working on these militarily important projects were not to be removed from them
- the Jews able to work in these camps were not sent to Nazi extermination sites in the period immediately following the Wannsee conference
- many of these Jews were left behind when the Germans retreated

Holy moly! That pretty much fits Monstrous's claims, well, except for the nukes. And the Soviet mass murders of these Jews.

I can think of only the following additional reasons not to consider that Monstrous and his tutors have solved the greatest riddle in all of human history:

- the system of camps invovled, which are known as the Schmelt camps, lay in East Upper Silesia, Upper Silesia, and the Sudeten area, that is, west of the General-Gouvernement and relatively close by Auschwitz - rather than near the eastern front or wherever Monstrous imagines the labor camps he, well, imagines lay
- there is no “black hole” or huge mystery here, as the existence and operation of the Schmelt camps have been documented (not to the level of detail historians want, but Monstrous has assured us that such details are only a product of “excessive small-mindedness, narrow-mindedness”)
- documentation for the camps includes the Korherr report (long form), in which statistician Korherr explained that as of January 1943 ”4) within the scope of Organization Schmelt (Breslau) there are 50 570 Jews, thereof 42 382 stateless and 8 188 foreigners”
- like practically everywhere, the Schmelt camps operated on the selection principle - in fact, the principle of selection was pioneered in these camps during late 1941 and 1942 as increasingly large numbers of workers succumbed to the conditions and, as a result, in the course of the action doubtless a large portion was eliminated by natural causes, assisted by “natural” practitioners at the nearby Auschwitz camp, to where those deemed “unfit” were sent following selections in the Schmelt camps - not only was the selection principle used in the Schmelt camps to reject unfit workers and “assign” them to Auschwitz-Birkenau but also Jews from the Netherlands and France were “recruited” as fit for the Schmelt camps and “excised” from Auschwitz-bound deportations from those countries for labor deployment in the Schmelt workshops, factories and construction jobs
- for the most part, Schmelt’s slave laborers were provided via Moshe Merin (Jewish Council of Elders), from ghettos in the East Upper Silesia and nearby areas, especially from Sosnowiec, Będzin, and Dabrowa Górnicza, which towns served as a labor reservoir and thus experienced a delayed implementation of the Final Solution
- the transport of unfit Jews from the Schmelt camps to Auschwitz for liquidation, beginning in fall 1941 but especially in spring 1942, is documented; here we can quote no less an authority than Michael Mills (bwahaaaa): “the Jews from East Upper Silesia gassed in Crematorium I in the spring of 1942 were from the Schmelt labour camps, selected for "euthanasia" because they were no longer usable for labour due to having become too sick or weak to work. . . . Van Pelt goes on to describe how an abandoned cottage previously belonging to a Polish peasant named Wiechuja and known as ‘the little red house’, was converted into two gas chambers within a few weeks, and was put into operation on 20 March as ‘Bunker I’, the first group of victims being another transport of Schmelt Jews unfit for work. . . . the gassings of Jews at Auschwitz in the spring and early summer of 1942 were not part of a comprehensive extermination program decided in Berlin, but local actions applied to specific groups of Jews, namely those from the Schmelt camps who had become unfit for work and those from Slovakia. . . .” - approximately 38,000 “Schmelt Jews” were victims of this spring 1942 action
- there is also extensive evidence for the eventual liquidation of the East Upper Silesia ghettos in the summer of 1943 (in June Moshe Merin himself was sent to Birkenau and murdered there) and the deportation of the “Jewish labor reserve army” to Auschwitz (suggested reading: Mary Fulbrook, A Small Town Near Auschwitz, which is a history of Będzin during the war period and Final Solution); from Katowice, Oberpräsidium Bracht reported to the the NSdAP Party Chancellery in September 1944 that the liquidation actions had removed the “Jewish element” from Sosnowiec, Będzin, Dabrowa Górnicza, and other towns, providing numbers for the ensuing population reductions
- the Schmelt camps themselves were not entirely liquidated; rather, the larger camps were absorbed into the subcamp systems of the WVHA camps Gross-Rosen and Auschwitz
- the area was liberated by the Red Army and, according to Sybille Steinbacher, there were 10s of 1000s of Jewish survivors in the former Schmelt (Steinbacher makes no mention of atomic explosions or other mysterious means of making these people disappear) of which an unknown number had been slave laborers in the Schmelt camps before their absorption into the WVHA camps

Leaving aside these few, minor objections to “the military labor theory,” golly, Monstrous may be on to something when it comes to this one example of Jews doing military work for the Germans. The A-bomb seems a little much, but who knows? Fire up the old BS Generator and come up with whatever “theories” we want, so long as they ignore the minor caveats I've listed, a bunch of "petty details" to be sure.

The real nitpick is that we have actual evidence for the Schmelt camps - which evidence is always trumped by what makes sense to Mattogno, drug-induced fantasies, Nazi wishful thinking, and outright fabrications, as Monstrous has been trying to tell us.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:58 am

back to the subject of the OP, let's look at some of the evidence for what happened at Chelmno extermination camp in the Warthegau (this list is not exhaustive; more so than with the Warsaw-Treblinka post I made earlier, I've not read all these sources but culled them from various sources - e.g., Krakowski, Chelmno: A Small Village in Europe: The First Nazi Mass Extermination Camp, Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's Death Camp, Epstein, Model Nazi: Arthur Greiser and the Occupation of Western Poland, Trunk, Łódź Ghetto: A History, the Łódź Chronicle, various diaries of Jewish ghetto inmates, etc). As with the Warsaw evidence, I'd like to see additions to this list (and removals of anything not relevant) - and maybe eventually discussion of Chelmno:

German documents and other evidence

- Greiser-Himmler correspondence NO-244, NO-246, NO-249, NO-251
- Höppner-Eichmann correspondence T/219
- Koppe to Brandt NO-247
- Blome to Greiser NO-250
- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
- personnel files Hans Bothmann (Chelmno commander 1944), Herbert Lange (1942)
- Walter Zirpins in article in German periodical Kriminalistik September 1941
- various German proclamations in Łódź ghetto
- reports and correspondence of Łódź ghetto administration on Jewish property; Koppe 28 August 1942 letter on Himmler's order for handling of Jewish furs in "Kulmhof operation" T/175

Jews to Chelmno

- report of Section IIB4 Gestapo, dated 2 September 1942 (Krakowski)
- Łódź ghetto chronicle
- Rumkowski speeches
- announcement of Hans Biebow 12 September 1942
- diaries of ghetto inmates: Oskar Rosenfeld, Dawid Sierakowiak, Josef Zelkowicz, Jakub Poznanski
- Fritz Ismer, German Hauptscharfuhrer - testimony
- Erhard Michelson, German settler to region - testimony
- Warsaw Hashomer Hatzair underground newspaper Jutrznia - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Gordonia youth movement newspaper Slowo Mlodych - quoted in Krakowski
- Podchlebnik testimony - see below
- Szulman postcards - see below
- Warsaw Bund newspaper - Der Weker
- anonymous girl's diary (Łódź ghetto)
- Reichsbahn bill to Lodz Gestapo for transport costs
- Himmler calendar
- testimonies in addition to below - Irena Li(e)bman (quoted at length in Krakowski), Sara Mancha, Ludwig Wegner, Helena Krol, Yitzhak Weizman, Pinkas Ha-Kehillot Łódź collection, Eli Krizons (German clerk in Łódź), memoir of Rabbi Yehoshua Aronson, Helene Klass (German living in Łeczyca), Olga Günther (German living in Warta), Irmgard Weller (German living in Lututów),
- articles in Polish underground press (Barykada Wolnoeci, Polscy Socjalioeci - quoted in Krakowski)
- diary of German occupation official in Poddębice Franz Bock

Eyewitness accounts (partial list)

- Michal Podchlebnik - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Szyman Srebnick - escapee from Chelmno (Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963, "Shoah" interview)
- Mordecai Zurawski - escapee, testified in Polish trials of Greiser, Gielow, Eichmann trial, Bonn trial 1963)
- Henryk Mania - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1964, 1967 testimonies -information on use of gas vans by the Germans
- Henryk Maliczak - Polish laborer in the Wetterkommando, 1967 testimony including testimony on use of conversion of vans for gassing
- Yerachmiel Widawski - escapee, testimony recorded by Naphtali Lau-Lavie in 1942 (quoted at length in Montague)
- Rabbi Jacob Szulman - 1942 letters including information from Szlama Winer
- Szlama Winer - escapee, information written down in winter 1942 (quoted in full in Montague), testimony given to Wassers in Warsaw (Oyneg Shabes, also Itzhak Zukerman memoir), see above
- Mieczyslaw Sakiewicz - local veterinarian, postwar testimony quoted at length in Montague
- Heinz May - forestry official, testimony included information on gas vans - quoted at length in Krakowski
- Josef Piaskowski and Bronislaw Falborski - local mechanics who worked on gas van repairs, quoted at length in Montague (other local mechanics also gave testimonies)
- a number of local residents - testimony on operations of vans in the area including a crash involving a van, en route to the forest burial area, filled with prisoners; also local testimonies on encounters with escapees
- Jan Oliskiewicz - testimony about letter describing Chelmno extermination center sent to Swiss consulate in Łódź by community leader Stanislaw Kaszynski

Perpetrator testimonies (partial list)

- Gustav Laabs - gas van driver in 1942 and 1944 phases
- Karl Heinl - police at forest camp and in castle, testimony on gas vans
- Ernst Burmeister - head of police at Chelmno, 1944
- Hans Biebow - head of Łódź administration
- Erwin Schmidt - in charge of provisions for SK Lange
- Wilhelm Koppe - HSSPF Poznan (quoted in Montague)
- Paul Blobel - advised on corpse disposal in forest camp
- Kurt Möbius - supervised incoming Jews at the mansion/castle, interrogation quoted in Krakowski
- Walter Piller - deputy commander of camp, 1944 phase, description of gassing process and vans, quoted at length in Krakowski
- Bruno Israel - guard during 1944 phase
- Rudolf Höss - commandant Auschwitz, head of Amt DI in WVHA, deputy of the inspector of the concentration camps under Glücks - on his visit to Kulmhof (Chelmno)
- Albert Meyer - head of marketable goods department Łódź, interrogation (including disposition of property of "outsettled" Jews)
- Viktor Brack deposition - NO-426
- Henry Wentritt - German workshop foreman, testimony on gas vans quoted in Montague
- Walter Burmeister - commandants' driver, testimony on gas vans

Gas vans general

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ts-on.html:
- Einsatzgruppen report of 1 March 1942 on "gas wagons"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute at the Reich Criminal Police Office of 26 March 1942 on "special wagons" and "gas bottles with carbon monoxide" for concentration camp Mauthausen.
- Letter from Harald Turner to Karl Wolff of 11 April 1942 on "I shot dead all the Jews I could get my hands on in this area, concentrated all the Jewish women and children in a camp and with the help of the SD got my hands on a "delousing van," that in about 14 days to 4 weeks will have brought about the definitive clearing out of the camp".
- Memo of 27 April 1942 on a "fast unloading device for the special vehicles"
- Letter from Walther Rauff to the Gaubschat company of 30 April 1942 on "extractable grates for the 10 delivered Saurer chassis"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to Walther Rauff of 14 May 1942 on "10 yet to be delivered special vehicles"
- Letter from August Becker to Walther Rauff of 16 May 1942 on "death van" and "the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned"
- Memo from Willy Just for Walther Rauff of 5 June 1942 on "ninety-seven thousand have been processed using three vans", "to facilitate the rapid distribution of CO" and "when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door"
- Telegram from Emanuel Schäfer to Friedrich Pradel of 9 June 1942 on "the special order" with "a special wagon Saurer"
- Telegram from Heinz Truehe to the RSHA of 15 June 1942 on "special treatment" of Jews with "S-wagons" and "20 exhaust hoses for the existing 3 S-wagons (2 Diamond, 1 Saurer), as those available are already leaky".
- Telegram from the RSHA to the commander of Security Police and Security Service Ostland of 22 June 1942 on "S wagon...transfer of a 5 t Saurer...100 m hose will be sent along"
- Memo of 23 June 1942 on "30 special coachworks for the delivered chassis...changes which cannot be considered there for reasons of secrecy are to be made in an in-house workshop"
- Letter from the Gaubschat company to the RSHA of 18 September 1942 on "Coachwork f. delivered 10 Saurer Chassis"

Chelmno mass graves

- Roberto Muehlenkamp series on forensics in SSF HD subforum
- archeological work discussed here and here, including study of artifacts discovered

Unless the point of Monstrous's thread isn't to discuss that which is observable, measurable, and verifiable but rather increasingly insane speculation that lacks . . . any evidence for it whatsoever.

Can someone please clarify for me the purpose of this thread? Am I off topic posting about key documents, forensic studies, reports, and testimonies?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:11 am

Of course you are. But one can't help it - it's unavoidable. The OP is Monstrous (who asks: "Is there a point here?" somewhere in his thread :-P).
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Re: Is this really the best there is?

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:53 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:- gold teeth in possession of Rudolf Kramp (Łódź administration official) at time of his arrest
That reminds me of something. When Kurt Bolender was arrested, the police found a {!#%@} whip in his house with his initials on it. What kind of transit camp supplies it's staff with whips?