RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

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RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:20 pm

RYU238. You have stated that you will not read any conventional history books, concerning the holocaust. You instead state, that you are going to obtain all your information from the internet.

I propose that you review the Nizkor Project website.
http://www.nizkor.org/

The Nizkor Project is a webpage that provides tools and clear information, that allows the debunking of Holocaust Denier claims. I propose that every time you read a claim on a Neo-Nazi website, that you first check to see if that claim has been debunked on Nizkor.

The topics are clearly set out into sub categories and you will quickly be able to find real information to debunk most holocaust denier claims.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by ryu238 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:24 am

I did, and as you'll recall I found a contradiction between that and holocaust history.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:46 am

ryu238 wrote:I did, and as you'll recall I found a contradiction between that and holocaust history.
You are lying. You opened two threads on Hoess without reading Nizkor first.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hoe ... -faq.shtml

OK. We have a new deal. The next time you read a Neo-Nazi website's claim, you must check if the claim is true on Nizkor first and then conventional history websites. If you open a thread, here without checking Nizkor first, I will pull your post apart and detail your incompetence and show you trolling many forums with the same question, after you have already been answered.

Plagiarism
i am very aware that the "rebuttal" comments that you have been posting on extremist websites, that you claim as your own, are in fact directly copied from other people's websites. This forum has plagiarism rules. I have already caught you doing this on JREF and you got suspended. Don't do it here.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Balsamo » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:29 pm

I must admit that i am not a big fan of Nikzor, is that wrong?
However, given the silly questions brought up by RYU238, Nikzor is Nobel prize level compared to his own sources.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:45 pm

Balsamo wrote:I must admit that i am not a big fan of Nikzor, is that wrong?
However, given the silly questions brought up by RYU238, Nikzor is Nobel prize level compared to his own sources.
agree on both points

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Monster » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:52 pm

ryu238 wrote:I did, and as you'll recall I found a contradiction between that and holocaust history.
I must agree with Matthew Ellard on this. You need to read non-neo-Nazi sources before bringing up a topic.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:04 pm

Monster wrote:
ryu238 wrote:I did, and as you'll recall I found a contradiction between that and holocaust history.
I must agree with Matthew Ellard on this. You need to read non-neo-Nazi sources before bringing up a topic.
There is such a wealth of material, with so many interesting debates, on the Holocaust that it is a real shame to see someone recycle denier BS as though it is meaningful or somehow new. There's a lot on the Internet - Holocaust Controversies deals with many denier claims much better than other sites - but chopping up history into soundbites the way ryu238 does will keep him confused. A discussion of how things developed, and were interconnected, is crucial to making sense of the history because the Third Reich and Final Solution are after all history. You don't "do history" a pro/con at a time. No one in his right mind would try understanding slavery in the US by googling pro-slaveholder sites and then posting about this or that element of life on plantations, without any grasp on how slavery worked and what the overall system of slavery involved.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:19 pm

Balsamo wrote:I must admit that i am not a big fan of Nikzor, is that wrong?
However, given the silly questions brought up by RYU238, Nikzor is Nobel prize level compared to his own sources.
What's wrong with Nizkor?


HC is better in my opinion, but Nizkor was the first pro-truth site I encountered on this issue, and a good place to start.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:54 pm

Go to the What's New? page. Surely, something has happened in the last 5-6 years, aside from Spanish translations, worth noting. M/G/K not even listed among deniers . . . Also, I find the excerpting maddening. E.g., yes, an excerpt on Hydrokop's findings on bores at Birkenau can be found, with some clicking, neat, but you get 4 sentences with no background, no context, etc. What's there isn't systematic - it's almost random. Konnilyn Feig? A single resource - a memorial book for one town - under "Lithuania." I mean, c'mon. I'm not "against" Nizkor, because it gives access to some basic stuff, even when it is truncated and pell mell. But I think "use with other sources" would be advisable, and I wouldn't suggest Nizkor as a basic "study" place, to understand the basic contours of the Holocaust. I don't think you can use that site to understand the basic history and the debates that keep historians awake all night - nor even the current claims of denial.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:29 am

It is a good place to start if you are new to this topic IMO. It is dated.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:23 am

Just for the record. I am not being harsh on RYU238.

RYU238 has stated copying other people's posts from other forums and then pasting them, as his own comment, on extremist websites. Naturally, RYU238 screws it up and the posts don't match the extremist websites claims.

It will simply be a matter of time before one of Statistical's posts, here, ends up as RYU238's personal comment on Stormer Radio or CODOH. Naturally it won't match the argument and RYU238 won't be able to defend "his" comment. One day, some denier will notice the same words and claim Statistical and RYU238 are the same person.

That's why I have to clearly tell RYU238 to not do this now, in precise clear language. He has an accounting diploma and should understand this is a "no no". RYU238 has a habit of saying "I didn't know" so I'm making sure he knows.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:45 am

@ Matthew: I don't think you're being harsh on ryu238 even a little.

@ Jeff: not where I'd start, I would take Matthew's original advice and start with books on the history.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Balsamo » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Balsamo wrote:I must admit that i am not a big fan of Nikzor, is that wrong?
However, given the silly questions brought up by RYU238, Nikzor is Nobel prize level compared to his own sources.
What's wrong with Nizkor?


HC is better in my opinion, but Nizkor was the first pro-truth site I encountered on this issue, and a good place to start.
Well, in addition with StatMec answer, which i agree with, i just think that their method is not productive. Lack of sources, answers that seems to have been written in a rush, and contain some mistakes and contradictions, approximations, no mentions of any existing legitimate historical debates, and in the end, a strange feeling that i might be a denier myself in regards to their strict definition. :lol:

I just think that their missed their goal, contrary to a blog like HC (which has a much better name in the first place, scientific contents, and which is not affraid of its opponents (the comment section). Most important, HC reached its goals as it really managed to piss off our fellow deniers, while i have never heard of Nizkor during my time at codoh.

I don't blame the initiative, but anyway, the site seems to be almost dead now.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:05 pm

Agree
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:18 am

Ryu is a good lad at hear IMO but this might not be for him......

I have encouraged him to more or less try other things in his spare time.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:31 am

Balsamo wrote: I don't blame the initiative, but anyway, the site seems to be almost dead now.
Regarding Nizkor, about ten years ago I swapped from the Skeptic Annotated Bible forum to here. I had a growing interest in non-religious extremist groups and I made errors, in my first posts, in our anti-holocaust denier forum.

Soooo....I sent an email to Nizkor "Please help" and a nice woman wrote back. She set out the difference between reading history and fighting deniers and offered me a brief bibliography to read.

I don't know about Nizkor today, but back then they helped a complete stranger, myself and pointed me in the right direction, back then. I'm always thankful to the workers at Nizkor for that good start.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:58 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:RYU238. You have stated that you will not read any conventional history books, concerning the holocaust. You instead state, that you are going to obtain all your information from the internet.

I propose that you review the Nizkor Project website.
http://www.nizkor.org/

The Nizkor Project is a webpage that provides tools and clear information, that allows the debunking of Holocaust Denier claims. I propose that every time you read a claim on a Neo-Nazi website, that you first check to see if that claim has been debunked on Nizkor.

The topics are clearly set out into sub categories and you will quickly be able to find real information to debunk most holocaust denier claims.
Nizkor helped me when I first started digging into Holocaust denial.
I agree reading books about the Holocaust is more productive but I still check in to Nizkor now and again. HC is a better resource but for someone just looking into this it isn't a bad place to start, especially with dealing with older denier arguments.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:16 am

its the perfect site for beginners

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:04 pm

Nizkor is pretty good. I like Phdn.org better though, that Is where I started off.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:12 pm

Denying-History wrote:Nizkor is pretty good. I like Phdn.org better though, that Is where I started off.
Phdn.org is an excellent resource, I'm glad it's back on line.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:15 pm

I still feel that the wisest thing to do, as opposed to following denier agendas via refutations of this and that, is to get grounded in proper integrated histories of the Third Reich and Europe in the interwar and war years. This enables one to have context and a broader view into which to place debates about particular points.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:I still feel that the wisest thing to do, as opposed to following denier agendas via refutations of this and that, is to get grounded in proper integrated histories of the Third Reich and Europe in the interwar and war years. This enables one to have context and a broader view into which to place debates about particular points.
I agree with you. Having a good overall knowledge of the history of the time helps to place things in its proper context.
When I first started looking at Holocaust denial, one of the things that struck me was the denier theory that the Action Reinhard Camps were transit camps. I wondered how this made sense. The height of the transports of Jews from the General Government to the Reinhard Camps occurred at the same time as Operation Blau, the German attack into the Caucuses. This was a major operation, involving the movement of a million German soldiers and their allies, plus tanks and planes. Transport was a major issue. Hitler split this attack in two, causing even more logistical problems.
At the same time, the Germans were fighting a vicious partisan war in the other occupied territories. There were major partisan actions that involved destroying villages and towns in places like Belorussia. The Germans also caused an artificial famine by confiscating and shipping food supplies back to Germany.
So, where did these Jews go? Where were these "camps" or "ghettos?" The Germans thought Jews created and supported partisan bands, why send millions of Jews into occupied areas right behind their troops? More importantly, where was the proof?
So, seen in isolation, deniers argue that the ARC were transit camps. The problem is this argument falls apart when the overall picture is examined. There was no time to set up receiving camps in the East, no transport available to send the Jews into the USSR and, even more importantly, sending Jews into areas the Germans intended to colonize themselves violated Nazi ideology.
When I point this out I'm usually told at this point that deniers don't have to prove anything to me.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:13 pm

Exactly. Or deniers bringing up features of Auschwitz, which, if you know about the KL system, are characteristic of the camps under authority of the WVHA but not Einsatz Reinhard camps, under different authority - or how deniers raise issues with the WVHA camps in Germany that presume a German intention to murder all their inmates. Or the way Nessie fell for Hunt's attempt to analogize Majdanek to Auschwitz, despite different histories and scale between the two camps. Or David's attempt to use the relative lack of success the Germans had in deporting all Jews from France - with the false insinuation that the Germans had the same ability to act in all the countries of Europe as they did in the General-Gouvernement and the occupied USSR. Or the way deniers try to use passages from Goebbels' diary without taking into account Goebbels' role and/or his relative standing with Hitler at the time of a given entry. Or deniers' raising questions about what went on during the end phase of the war, which came after Himmler had for all intents and purposes terminated the Final Solution. Or deniers like Monstrous arguing that the early Einsatzgruppen actions against the Jews were really anti-partisan warfare - before the time when the partisan movement in the east had grown to significance. And so on and so on.
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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Poodle » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:28 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:... Having a good overall knowledge of the history of the time helps to place things in its proper context ...
I don't often poke my nose in here, but I feel I have to reinforce Jeff's understatement of the century. Having an overall knowledge of the history of the time does more than help - it's a requirement for the study of any area of history. When it comes to Holocaust studies, it's not a requirement - it's an absolute necessity before you venture into the treacle pits of denier websites.

OK - said my bit.

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:57 pm

I think this is how deniers win converts. Putting distorted facts in front of those who don't know better makes the facts SEEM valid, especially if the viewer is prone to conspiracy theories.
I had a friend who was prone to conspiracy theories. He lapped up what the 9/11 "truthers" said, various conspiracies about Pearl Harbor, that sort of thing. It gave him real trouble when I talked to him about Pearl Harbor, I could tell it troubled him when I told him things that contradicted the stuff he read.
I lost track of him some time ago, we stopped working together. To me he is the type of person prone to denial arguments (versus the Nazi apologists and anti-Semites).
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Denying-History » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:08 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Nizkor is pretty good. I like Phdn.org better though, that Is where I started off.
Phdn.org is an excellent resource, I'm glad it's back on line.
I never realized it went down. Oh I was also contacted by the domain owner. I thought that was pretty cool.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: RYU238 and Nizkor Website / For checking Facts

Post by Aaron Richards » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:02 am

my little imgur blog/album is my attempt to use largely the work of others to do my part in combating holocaust denial, and (IMO) increasing the number of anti-revisionist websites. It's the work of many months, and still a W.I.P. and probably contains a fair share of errors as I am no historian, but I think it's something:

Pls subscribe to my BitChute channel "Holocaust Documents": https://www.bitchute.com/holocaustdocuments/
I compile rebuttals to popular holocaust denier canards here: imgur.com/a/725A7
and here: imgur.com/a/wo09c