Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:16 pm

Hans Metzner on Mattogno's disingenuous treatment of German sources for gas vans: "Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part IV: The 'Enormous Contradiction' That Is None"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:02 pm

Hans' Part V is one of his best dissections of Il Re di Convoluzione - and one of his most fun reads: "Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part V: Nazi Foreign Office Documents vs. Holocaust Denial".

I don't know what to say. At Codoh, they are still avoiding HC's criticisms - and Mattogno's compendium of errors and nonsense. I've given up on the Rodoh "discussion" as it became typically circular and then meandered, anything to avoid the point. Is Werd still struggling to convince himself that Mattogno's problem is nothing more than a few typos and factual gaffes rather than a misconceived argument and shoddy research in its service?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:33 pm

Poor Mattogno!

Hans strikes again: "Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part VI: Gas Van Arithmetic".

Has anyone checked recently to see if Werd is still struggling with all this? Last I recall he was attempting to restate Hans' arguments but garbling them to the point of indecipherability. Werd wants the problem to be Mattogno's typos and small errors of fact, rather than the real situation: a dishonest and flawed argument bolstered by poor research. The jokesters are most likely still joking, eh?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:01 pm

I decided to take a look at Werd's EG thread at Rodoh. Oh my. Poor chap. Anyway, I'm glad I looked in, as Hans has been trying to explain that, in the words of DabbingIsSoMuchFun, "The whole book is an error unto itself."

. . . worth a quick read.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:01 pm

Werd keeps trying to minimize the gross inadequacy and dishonesty of Mattogno's "scholarship" by pretending that his work has some errors, which Hans and HC have fortunately caught. He thanks Hans, even as Hans slaps down Mattogno's and Werd's absurdities.

But Werd tries excusing the latest Mattogno failure, and his own, writing, "obviously I don't agree with HC on Auschwitz and the AR camps, but the eastern campaign, this is very new territory not only for me, but even for mainstream holocaust research. Even Rudolf once said in an email that it was largely uncharted territory . . ."

Say wot?

Trolljerkoff, FWIW, buys this nonsense and takes some creative license attempting to defend the Nazis in the East: "Thank you Werd, it is new territory. I am getting the impression that the issues with Eastern Camps were the predominence of Ukrainian guards: there is a strong correlation. It is this uncertainty that predominates the holocaust. This is further confused with previous pogroms in the area, the integration of Baltic cops from all over the place, the Jewish bolshevik aspirations as well as the Soviet Deviousness. The events were a huge mixture of horror, it was to easy to blame the Germans in this context."

The Rodoh thread is truly weird. We're just now learning about the Germans' campaign in the East and Nazi atrocities and extermination actions there. People are saying. In all seriousness.

OTOH I have in my files a truly mind-boggling bibliography with between 400 and 500 titles of studies of these issues, some titles from the immediate postwar period, many from the 1990s, 100s from 2000-2009. Mattogno is aware of a fraction of these studies, Werd and Trolljerkoff apparently even fewer. Ah, our buffoonish self-appointed experts and critics, a laugh a minute with them.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 pm

. . . Werd's latest post assumes that Hans is there to help Werd take a handful of Mattogno's most glaring errors of fact to Rudolf and thus clean up miscues in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book . . . lipstick on a pig?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:40 pm
. . . Werd's latest post assumes that Hans is there to help Werd take a handful of Mattogno's most glaring errors of fact to Rudolf and thus clean up miscues in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book . . . lipstick on a pig?
Definitely lipstick on a pig.... the errors are only the tip of the iceberg as to what's wrong about the book...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:33 pm

Hans to Werd:
Tell Rudi that I only take cash for my proof-reading :lol:

I predict that Mattogno won't get his head out of this rope. Some sloppy errors can be fixed, but others are too substantial and fundamental that there is no way that he will be able to keep up his strict denial (without producing the next round of fallacies), plus the massive loss of credibility. And the chapter on gas vans is still long and I have a long breath, so...
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:09 am

Hans on Semantics
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 am

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am

Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:56 am

LOL we cross-posted . . . seems we read the thing at just the same time but I got a little wordy in my link :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
Smith bought that tripe from Berg.... Credit where credit is due :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:38 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
:)
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=60

Seriously, he does need some compensation, holy crap...

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Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship
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Post Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:42 pm

Tell Rudi that I only take cash for my proof-reading :lol:

I predict that Mattogno won't get his head out of this rope. Some sloppy errors can be fixed, but others are too substantial and fundamental that there is no way that he will be able to keep up his strict denial (without producing the next round of fallacies), plus the massive loss of credibility. And the chapter on gas vans is still long and I have a long breath, so...
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:38 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
:)
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=60

Seriously, he does need some compensation, holy crap...

Hans
Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship
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Post Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:42 pm

Tell Rudi that I only take cash for my proof-reading :lol:

I predict that Mattogno won't get his head out of this rope. Some sloppy errors can be fixed, but others are too substantial and fundamental that there is no way that he will be able to keep up his strict denial (without producing the next round of fallacies), plus the massive loss of credibility. And the chapter on gas vans is still long and I have a long breath, so...
It's fatal to his efforts.... He's done....

Even had it been a reasonable effort, who the hell did he imagine was gonna read it... I see Castle Hill is willing to sell a copy for $60.00 + s&h..... :roll:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:10 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:38 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
:)
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=60

Seriously, he does need some compensation, holy crap...

Hans
Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship
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Post Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:42 pm

Tell Rudi that I only take cash for my proof-reading :lol:

I predict that Mattogno won't get his head out of this rope. Some sloppy errors can be fixed, but others are too substantial and fundamental that there is no way that he will be able to keep up his strict denial (without producing the next round of fallacies), plus the massive loss of credibility. And the chapter on gas vans is still long and I have a long breath, so...
It's fatal to his efforts.... He's done....

Even had it been a reasonable effort, who the hell did he imagine was gonna read it... I see Castle Hill is willing to sell a copy for $60.00 + s&h..... :roll:
Someone sent me a copy for free. If you want to read it I can track it down for you.

:D
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:48 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:10 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:38 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:54 am
Mattogno caught the same thing that has long ailed Scott Smith, namely, an obsession with producer gas and a belief in the magic that this obsession will work: Hans discusses the various aspects of this odd belief in another installment of his critique of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen opus. (one of Hans' best of many gems; I assume Hans still posts at Rodoh and will stuff this down their throats)
:)
https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=60

Seriously, he does need some compensation, holy crap...

Hans
Re: Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book & CODOH censorship
Report this post Quote
Post Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:42 pm

Tell Rudi that I only take cash for my proof-reading :lol:

I predict that Mattogno won't get his head out of this rope. Some sloppy errors can be fixed, but others are too substantial and fundamental that there is no way that he will be able to keep up his strict denial (without producing the next round of fallacies), plus the massive loss of credibility. And the chapter on gas vans is still long and I have a long breath, so...
It's fatal to his efforts.... He's done....

Even had it been a reasonable effort, who the hell did he imagine was gonna read it... I see Castle Hill is willing to sell a copy for $60.00 + s&h..... :roll:
Someone sent me a copy for free. If you want to read it I can track it down for you.

:D
Balmoral IIRC has suffered through the massive thing and judged it previously: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25822&start=1680#p697132
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:55 pm

LOL, yeah, I realize now I double posted some things.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:03 pm

We need a chorus of violins playing pitiful music to honor Balmoral's hard sacrifice :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:38 am

HC on recent excavations of mass grave at site where Brest ghetto was located: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... e.html?m=1
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat May 25, 2019 12:28 pm

This is to help Monstrous and other deniers show how the EGs fought communism, with an example this time from southern Ukraine, according to early 1960s testimony of Anton T,. an ethnic German:
An SD unit [Einsatzkommando 12] of approximately 25 men arrived in Landau [Shyrokolanivka today] at the end of August 1941 and remained there at most 10 days. . . . These SD personnel shot 8 Jews in Landau, including an elderly local Jewish woman and seven other Jews, who all lived in the Landau's retirement home. The shooting took place in a sand pit to the southwest of Landau. . . . Mayor F. ordered Willibald S., Michael W., Johann L., and I to dig a pit the size of a double grave. Then the SD personnel arrived. . . . We found out . . . that [retirement-home coachman Raphael S.] had to drive the old Jews from the retirement home on a horse-drawn wagon to the pit. About 10 minutes after the shots were fired the SD personnel - it was four of them - came to us and ordered us to cover the grave.
Communist threat eliminated, one step at a time. (source: Steinhart, The Holocaust and the Germanization of Ukraine, p 36)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:06 am

Dumitru quotes from a revealing report of Einsatzgruppe D (EM 43) "on the Transnistria town of Iampol" during late July 1941, which described that "the majority of the inhabitants of the town have fled" and complained that the locals there "refused to proceed towards the total destruction of the remaining Jews." EK 10a attributed this behavior of locals, probably incorrectly says Dumitru, to a fear of the Soviets returning. In any case, the report shows that in this region, the Germans found Ukrainians as a whole unwilling to join pogroms that would have furthered German goals; only the older Ukrainians, the report noted, still retained "a spark of [the] hatred" of Jews that had animated pogroms there in 1919.

(By early August, with the locals quiescent on the Jewish question, EK 10a was reporting - in EM 45 - that the unit's "raids were carried out against Jews" west of Iampol; that 97 Jews were shot and 1,756 hostages were seized; and that the hostages "are executed on the slightest pretext." Also, that a small number of Jews were shot in Iampol itself. By late August in EM 67 EG D could report that the region had been "cleared of Jews," with over 27,000 Jews "driven back to Romania" and over 4,000 shot - "1,265, mostly younger ones" of those shot near Iampol. Also, that "No terror and sabotage groups were discovered." Iampol, Yampil' today, lies on the northern bank of the Dneister River; the Romanians sought to push Jews into Ukraine and further into German occupied territory at this time, whilst the Germans demanded that Romania solve its Jewish problem on Romanian-held territory, as explained here.)

(Dumitru, p 183; Arad, Krakowski & Spector, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, pp 72-73, 76, 119; Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania, p 116)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:20 pm
NathanC wrote:. . . Monstrous tried to downplay "do not divide the dead" by saying that it was only in Stalin's era. The second half of the 40s was still Stalin's era, so he's now backtracking and contradicting himself in this thread. Pathetic.
Bartov describes two interesting aspects of this.

First, in the Stalin era, in fact, immediately after the war, there were investigations of the killing site outside Buczacz in western Galicia, Fedor Hill in the forests there. Although a 1944 inquiry concluded in the formulaic manner of Stalinist discourse of the genocide that in the Czortlów district as a whole "13,000 entirely innocent peaceful Soviet citizens" had been slaughtered, the body of the report of the investigation specifically referred to "mass executions ('pogroms') of the Jewish population" and said that "the entire Jewish population" of the town of Czortlów had "been annihilated." Detailed descriptions of the actions and methods were included. The report even called out Ukrainian "traitors" who'd assisted in the extermination actions and named names.

Later in 1944, in October, the local branch of the Soviet Extraordinary Commission carried out an investigation of the killings in Buczacz:
The investigators exhumed mass graves [Bartov includes a sketch of the site from Soviet archives] and carried out forensic analysis, interviewed locals, and tried to obtain information from survivors. The commission also identified by name . . . many Sipo men, gendarmes, Ukrainian policemen, and other local collaborators involved in the killings. An interim report issued in mid-October identified fourteen mass graves on Fedor Hill containing altogether 13,670 victims; it was followed a few days later by a report on three mass graves found at the Jewish cemetery with an additional 5,000 victims.
A final report was issued in November; this final SEC report on Buczacz
omitted all previous references to local collaborators, and while witness testimonies had unambiguously pointed out that the vast majority of the victims were Jews, the conclusion merely stated that these were "crimes against Soviet citizens."
At the same time, the report described forensic findings - saying of decomposed corpses examined that there were indications of gunshot wounds to the back of the head.

Second, in the post Stalin USSR, in 1982, a local history museum was opened in Buczacz. It contained many materials from the so-called "Great Patriotic War and the liberation of the city from the German-Fascist occupants." Not only did the museum exhibits neglect to give information about prewar Jewry in Buczacz (e.g., Emanuel Ringelblum and Simon Wiesenthal had been students at the local school, and the famous Hebrew writer Shmuel Yosef Agnon was born in the town and wrote about the region) but also a recommended tour of the city ended feet from the mass graves in the Jewish cemetery: "But the guide made no mention of the Jews who lived and died in Buczacz."

Bartov, Anatomy of a Genocide, pp 277-279, 292
In Geissbühler, Romania and the Holocaust, Kai Struve describes the Soviet government's goals in the mid- and late 1940s, in terms of the crimes against humanity and war crimes committed on Soviet territory during WWII, as follows:

Image
Image

(pp 90-91) It was not a goal of the Soviets to highlight the Jewish tragedy. Struve cites a Soviet document to illustrate his point that the Soviets ignored the Jewish victims of Ukrainian nationalist violence in favor of "presenting the Ukrainians . . . as German-sponsored executioners of the Ukrainian population."

Image

If the Soviets wished to promote a so-called Jewish cause and/or the mass extermination of the Jews, why did its propagandists, along with Soviet authorities, miss the opportunity to do so in this context?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:26 am

The CODOH thread on Mattogno's EG book never got another post after 9 December 2018. The entire thread is 4 posts long.

First up EtienneSC shares the ToC and a few informational comments, along with a promise to "deal with Mattogno's introduction in a separate post ." This would be EtienneSC's last post in the stunted thread.

The moderator then asks members to create separate threads for specific chapters. JLAD Prove Me Wrong mentions HC's criticism of the book and suggests separate threads for what HC's said.

Finally the moderator posts, "OK, but state which chapter each relate to in the title of the thread."

That's it. Other than a few random comments about the book, such as that it's out now, I found nothing more at Codoh. As though Mattogno's EG book never happened.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:26 am
The CODOH thread on Mattogno's EG book never got another post after 9 December 2018. The entire thread is 4 posts long.

First up EtienneSC shares the ToC and a few informational comments, along with a promise to "deal with Mattogno's introduction in a separate post ." This would be EtienneSC's last post in the stunted thread.

The moderator then asks members to create separate threads for specific chapters. JLAD Prove Me Wrong mentions HC's criticism of the book and suggests separate threads for what HC's said.

Finally the moderator posts, "OK, but state which chapter each relate to in the title of the thread."

That's it. Other than a few random comments about the book, such as that it's out now, I found nothing more at Codoh. As though Mattogno's EG book never happened.
Either they recognized what a turd it was or they set the bar too high there in thinking some member might actually read it...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:24 am

I think the reading of the thing stymied them.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Darren Wilshak » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm

Whatever happened to Etienne SC, last seen at the weird North Korean moderation forum making promises about doing something. Reading something, was it?

Its funny, feel sure that the deniers were really stoked about that book coming out and the way in which its presence would signal the last nails being driven into the holocoffin.

Maybe they have all had blackouts or have followed Eric Hunt and taken the fight to the Jews in other ways.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

AHF