Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:13 pm

Be that as it may, I appreciate his brevity on the subject as opposed to, eg, Mr. Smith who's likely to show up with a complete inventory of German military trucks along with an explanation as to why each one is not "the one".

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:30 pm

ROFL (and which fuel each could run on)

New rule for deniers: keep your stupidest posts short.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:30 pm
Rollo the ganger is surely one of the thickest deniers I've come across. Not content with his humiliating gaffe some years ago with Zhikharev Cyrillic Bold, he now tries creating a mystery about whether/where Jäger mentioned killing in his famous report!
rollo the ganger wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:01 am
This ought to be an easy one for the hoaxsters...

Since I don't read German maybe someone can point out to me, specifically, where in the Jaeger Report:

https://phdn.org/archives/einsatzgruppe ... mages.html

..it actually mentions actually "killing" someone? It doesn't have to be that exact word and I'm not saying the report doesn't say it, I'm just trying to examine the document for what it really says.

I assume VFX speaks German so maybe he can be of assistance if the hoaxsters are unwilling.

Thanks ahead of time.
Apparently Rollo has chosen not to read the very first line of of the report, among others.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... img001.gif

Still nothing in the thread on Mattogno's book about Mattogno's book or HC critiques of it.
RtG trolling.... Years at Rodoh and he can't find an online English translation of the JR, let alone work out from the German it discusses "executions"????

BS.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:16 pm

>> RtG trolling

Especially since he asks this absurd question of those he calls "the hoaxsters," Rodoh parlance for normal people who are members there: how the heck can Nessie or Goody, banned from the main forum, reply? LOL
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:27 pm

They appear to be trying to assemble a committee to look into the mystery ... Codoh at least remains silent on the topic. Nor has even one denier shown up at ISF to discuss it.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:15 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p140924

So the new "theory" about the Jäger report - which utilizes the method of ignoring the complete written text and surrounding evidence - is that it does not discuss execution operations, pits dug for burial, liquidations, shootings and even parade shootings, and bumping off of Jews but rather "performances," "implementations," "carryings-out," "undertakings," or "finishings" of the EK 3. And the report breaks down number of Jews (and some others) involved in these EK 3 "performances" and "finishings," sometimes giving reasons for the "performances," such as reprisals. So that Rollo has Jäger reporting so many Jews “performed,” etc.

The report which Rollo once "proved" to be a forgery tarting up mass murder, on account of the Geheime Reissache stamp, and which other deniers claim to show anti-partisan combat, is now supposed to be an innocuous German document reporting the "performances" and "finishings" of Jäger's Einsatzkommando.

Using Rollo's approach and substituting his suggested meanings for "Exekutionen" results in some amazingly silly translations, which Rollo might well have thought of before going down this road.

Rollo confesses to "not having a grasp of the German language myself," but his more serious problem is not having a grasp of reality.

And this feeble-mindedness comes in a thread supposedly discussing Mattogno's arguments.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:24 pm

I really recommend continuing to follow the Rodoh Einsatzgruppen thread, it reads like clowns dressed as office workers throwing pies in one another's face (I will give blake credit for calling out one of the more obvious problems with Rollo's - now also Trolljerkoff's - theory - the executed executions indeed). But there is no point to my continuing to summarize here the pratfalls and comic masterpieces committed over there - I'll just add that the level of thickness is, to borrow a word, apocalyptic. OTOH, if anyone there gets around to trying to deal with the HC criticisms of Mattogno's book, I will post about that here.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:24 pm
I really recommend continuing to follow the Rodoh Einsatzgruppen thread, it reads like clowns dressed as office workers throwing pies in one another's face (I will give blake credit for calling out one of the more obvious problems with Rollo's - now also Trolljerkoff's - theory - the executed executions indeed). But there is no point to my continuing to summarize here the pratfalls and comic masterpieces committed over there - I'll just add that the level of thickness is, to borrow a word, apocalyptic. OTOH, if anyone there gets around to trying to deal with the HC criticisms of Mattogno's book, I will post about that here.
I was invited by RtG to join the thread but have decided to await the return to the thread from vacances of the two native German speakers.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:21 pm

Do let us know . . . :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:21 pm
Do let us know . . . :)
Will do...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:15 pm

VFX's "Mattogno EG thread" at Rodoh having veered off into Rollo's illiterate speculations about language and now into been-there's defense of the Germans' wholesale slaughter of communities in the occupied East, Werd has opened up a new thread, the first post addressing the critical issue of PDF vs print page numbers: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 69#p141036.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:30 pm

I dropped in to check it out. Been-there brings up the moral dilemma of poor orphaned children and how much better it was in the end to shoot them in cold blood in a pit than to leave them to starve.

Trollerjerkoffin blames the Lithuanians and opines they should have shot more.

Repulsive wretches.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:15 pm
VFX's "Mattogno EG thread" at Rodoh having veered off into Rollo's illiterate speculations about language and now into been-there's defense of the Germans' wholesale slaughter of communities in the occupied East, Werd has opened up a new thread, the first post addressing the critical issue of PDF vs print page numbers: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 69#p141036.
He’s going to start slow and small...you know...for rollo. Good plan.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
Calel Perechodnik, Polish Jew, 1942

https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:30 pm
I dropped in to check it out. Been-there brings up the moral dilemma of poor orphaned children and how much better it was in the end to shoot them in cold blood in a pit than to leave them to starve.

Trollerjerkoffin blames the Lithuanians and opines they should have shot more.

Repulsive wretches.
Repulsive, ignorant ... and with delusions of adequacy.

But Werd is getting to the heart of the beast: the page numbers!!!

Goody is just figuring out that Rodoh is not where one discusses/debates the Holocaust . . . LOL
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:27 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:30 pm
I dropped in to check it out. Been-there brings up the moral dilemma of poor orphaned children and how much better it was in the end to shoot them in cold blood in a pit than to leave them to starve.

Trollerjerkoffin blames the Lithuanians and opines they should have shot more.

Repulsive wretches.
Otoh, one has to give Been There an A+ for originality (I've never seen the like of it in the last twenty years)... I guess that comes from freeing one's mind from the shackles of victor's history.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:31 pm

... and successfully absorbing at least some of Himmler's worldview, ethics, and thinking processes?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:58 pm

Rodoh should change the name of the "Einsatzgruppen" thread to "Been-There Recommends Shooting," and they should hire an editor for Werd in the "Errors in Mattogno's English Einsatzgruppen book" so that what he posts makes at least a little sense.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:27 pm

Giving up on trying to find a point to Werd's posts on Mattogno's book, I thought to mention an interesting twist in information about the East reaching the World Jewish Congress and Jewish Agency offices in Geneva. By fall 1941, these organizations realized that Jews in the occupied Soviet Union were at terrible risk but had almost no factual information on the open-air shootings in the occupied territories. OTOH the offices had received a report from outside Zagreb describing arrests of Jews in Croatia, detainment of Jews in camps there, plunder of the property of Croatian Jews, and death of incarcerated Jews in the Croatian camps. The report even alluded to the likely fate of its author - the "surgical knife" of the Croatian authorities. (The Geneva offices were also well informed about the emigration halt of fall 1941 and deportations of Jews from Germany, Austria, and the Protectorate to Lodz, Minsk, Riga, etc). Matthäus, ed, Predicting the Holocaust, pp 40-41, 46-47, 143, 151-156
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:32 pm

This post of Werd's I do find comprehensible - and I would say that he has a valid point: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 2f#p141170
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:32 pm
This post of Werd's I do find comprehensible - and I would say that he has a valid point: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 2f#p141170
Nothing's changed there in sixteen years :lol: :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:43 pm

Remember the Free Wroclaw caper? That was a bit different . . . LOL
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:43 pm
Remember the Free Wroclaw caper? That was a bit different . . . LOL
I do indeed and indeed it was :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:00 pm


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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:08 pm

Thanks, good thread, well worth reading through. Mills does a better job making the revisionist case, despite his usual dishonesty, than the morons at Rodoh (where there's now a food fight amongst kooks) and Codoh (where Mattogno's book seems to have been deemed too toxic for discussion) ... which only makes the replies from the tag-team of Thompson and Harrison all the more meaningful and more enjoyable.

In related news, Werd is lagging far behind in Rodoh's recently opened competition for #1 genocidal maniac, with been-there a surprisingly strong challenger to Trollkerkoff-Huntinger.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:31 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:08 pm
Thanks, good thread, Mills does a better job making the revisionist case than the usual suspects at Rodoh (where there's now a food fight amongst kooks) or Codoh (where Mattogno's book seems deemed so toxic that discussion of it is suppressed) ... which only makes the replies from the tag-team of Thompson and Harrison all the more meaningful.

Werd is lagging far behind in Rodoh's competition for #1 genocidal maniac, with been-there a surprisingly strong challenger to Trollkerkoff-Huntinger.
No problemo....

Taking odds on Been There? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:33 am

sorry for editing whilst you posted, whoops . . . I am quite proud of been-there, stepping up on murdering the children like that was a rare moment of honesty . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:20 pm

Still no activity at Codoh on Mattogno's book or the critical articles at HC - but the good news is, nearly 18 years later, Codoh now has a 9/11 "truth" forum.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:17 pm

Well, it was inevitable. Whackadoodle deniers are drawn to other whackadoodle conspiracy theories.
“They say..that in Slonim they gathered in the town square 14,000 people...and all were machine-gunned. I ask you, is it possible to believe such a thing?...How can the world remain silent? It is probably not true.”
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https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/10 ... 24832?s=21

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:36 pm

I guess so. I've given up on even checking the Rodoh response, as their thread went off to Crazyville some time ago.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:20 pm
Still no activity at Codoh on Mattogno's book or the critical articles at HC - but the good news is, nearly 18 years later, Codoh now has a 9/11 "truth" forum.
Took Hargis 18 years to finally suss out Jews did 9/11... He's even a fail as an anti-semite.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:53 pm

Back to Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book, it appears, looking across responses, that so far deniers have reacted with gnashing of teeth over Mattogno's errors, various replays of old and mistaken claims, silence, and even stifling of some attempts at discussion. HC's critical pieces, OTOH, haven't warranted any response at Codoh.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:19 pm

Still nothing at Codoh on Mattogno's book or the HC critiques: is the thing a flop even with revisionists?

At the same time, on a tangent, I've been wondering what Werd, Huntinger/Trolljerkoff, and been-there make of Semelin's book on responses of French Jews to their persecution during the war . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:19 pm
Still nothing at Codoh on Mattogno's book or the HC critiques: is the thing a flop even with revisionists?

At the same time, on a tangent, I've been wondering what Werd, Huntinger/Trolljerkoff, and been-there make of Semelin's book on responses of French Jews to their persecution during the war . . .
Werd apparently tried to start two threads there yesterday. One was denied publication by moderation as of last night.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:13 am

Aha, thanks. Maybe Werd should try Semelin?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:13 am
Aha, thanks. Maybe Werd should try Semelin?
Sure, he should. But... asking ain't getting, as the saying goes...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:32 am

Yeah, they aren't too likely to have read that book, let alone had a discussion about it. Remember ralphie and Angrick & Klein? LOL
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:17 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:32 am
Yeah, they aren't too likely to have read that book, let alone had a discussion about it. Remember ralphie and Angrick & Klein? LOL
I do recall, sigh....

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:47 am

Mattogno’s book is still being ignored, or discussion of it censored, at Codoh.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:04 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp on Mattogno's arguments about photographs of Nazi mass murder sites in the occupied East: "Mattogno on Photographic Documentation"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:07 pm

Nick Terry added an interesting comment sources for the open-air shootings in the occupied East to Muehlenkamp's latest HC piece:
Reconstructing the Holocaust in the Soviet Union relies in any case on multiple source types of multiple national provenances (in terms of who collected and preserved the sources). The ballpark number can be extrapolated from demographic calculations as has been done several times. 

German and Romanian official documents confirm well over 1.5 million, probably around 1.7-1.8 million out of the 2.4-2.6 million indicated by demographic calculations (excluding deaths of Soviet Jews in the Red Army, etc, which are factored out). Big chunks of this documented total are region-wide or unit-wide statistics, e.g. the figures in Meldung 51, with other documents giving a partial breakdown.

Unofficial German contemporary sources like diaries and letters, plus contemporary non-German sources including Polish underground reports, Lithuanian and Latvian nationalist reports, Swiss and other diplomatic/intelligence reports, Jewish contemporary reports, diaries, manuscripts and letters, are also numerous, especially for the annexed territories of the Baltic states, eastern Poland and Bessarabia/Bukovina, which account for 1.4-1.6 million. There are a fair number of such sources for the pre-1939 USSR (0.9-1 million), but the coverage is less extensive. 

Postwar investigations from 1945 onwards outside the USSR or East Bloc corroborate pretty much all the really big actions and major localities, but they don't necessarily drill down into every last rayon of a particular oblast - for a certain proportion of localities, the only real sources we have are Soviet Extraordinary Commission reports and interrogations, with some corroborated also by Soviet war crimes trials, especially of collaborators, so these are inconsistently available - Ukraine and Lithuania has been open with these trials, the Russian Federation hasn't been so open.

The issue for historians is not whether one source base requires corroboration from another, but rather simply using all the relevant sources we have available. In most cases one can corroborate, in other cases one cannot, and to say anything about the obscure backwater village or town in Belarus or wherever, there's no choice but to use a Soviet source. Since there is such a heavy overlap of corroboration, we can rely on the Soviet sources after we cross-reference with the overall demographic calculations. This doesn't preclude individual localities from potentially being wrong or exaggerated for some reason, but the issue is aggregating the most probable numbers by republic (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, RSFSR) and oblast. 

Since getting absolutely precise and 100% corroborated statistics for most instances of region-wide or country-wide mass violence and genocide in modern history is extremely hard, and since we also have extreme difficulties coming up with absolutely certain numbers for individual massacres (e.g. Setif, Nanjing, Murambi in Rwanda) with sources giving conflicting estimates, then one should accept that death toll numbers for outbreaks of truly mass violence, as well as death tolls of civilians in major wars, are not going to be reconstructed on an even basis.

What is also certain is that only a fraction of the deaths in mass violence and genocide were ever investigated via exhumations or forensics, and only a fraction of the deaths, as Roberto has shown in the blog post, were ever documented visually with photographs.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"