Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by nickterry » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:20 pm

Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book is now unofficially accessible on the Holocaust Handbooks website - it's due for an official release later this weekend, but someone figured out the PDF file name :-)

current page for the book: (Production; we'll switch it free this coming weekend!.)
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=39

download:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/39-te.pdf

contrary to the remarks on the book-page a month ago that Rudolf had "submitted a long list of open issues -- including remarks made by the HC blog", there appear so far to be no major edits or additions compared to the Italian edition. Instead, Rudolf wrote a foreword which essentially tries to handwave away the recent HC blog criticisms and justify why they did not bother to correct things for the English edition.

This is unfortunate, since the HC team knew of hundreds of other criticisms of the Italian edition, all of which appear to have been included in the English translation, which means that Rudolf is an incompetent editor.

Indeed, nobody bothered to correct the misidentifications of Sonderkommandos and Einsatzkommandos in tables from p.255 onwards - p.255 the listing for Einsatzgruppe B mistakenly includes an entry for SK 4a at Lutsk, which is so freaking obviously Einsatzgruppe C I am astounded; p.260 there is an entry under Einsatzgruppe C for 'Rumanians' which should obviously be under Einsatzgruppe D; p.264 entries for Einsatzgruppe zbV operating in eastern Poland including around Pinsk are slapped under Einsatzgruppe D;p.265 an entry for Kharkov, which should have been attributed to Einsatzgruppe C, is attributed to Einsatzgruppe D, as is an entry for Orel, which was Einsatzgruppe B territory.

These are relatively trivial examples of *obvious* mistakes which could have been picked up on by a half-decent editor at some stage, and corrected without changing a word or anything about the argument.

There are many more fundamental misinterpretations and misrepresentations, of course, but dealing with those would have required someone more familiar with the material than Rudolf or any other denier editor, willing and able to stand up to Mattogno, the great Cornholio of 'revisionism'.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jonathan Harrison » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:19 am

The book is now available at the homepage. This part of Rudolf's spin is self-contradictory:
It then establishes that there is not a shred of evidence indicating that these units ever received orders to commit wholesale slaughter of Jews. In fact, there is abundant evidence refuting such a claim. The extant documentation instead points to the Jews having been targeted by the Germans as the fertile breeding ground of Bolshevism, hence as a convenient scapegoat for the atrocious way the Soviets waged this war.
If Jews were shot as a "scapegoat", this is still shooting Jews as Jews. Obviously the statement is also a lie on its face because the book includes Montua's "looters" order, Himmler's Pripet order (27.7.41) and Heydrich's first two orders. Rudolf probably doesn't even realize that these orders were channeled through the HSSPF and Kommandostab, not the Einsatzgruppen leaders, but Mattogno certainly does know this because he cites the orders whilst pretending they do not contradict his thesis that shootings were improvised locally in response to partisan activities and Soviet methods.

Hargis et al won't be happy about "scapegoat" because they want Jews to be to blame.

Belated thanks to Statistical Mechanic for his sterling work on this thread.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:52 pm

His thesis also contradicts the demographic composition of Einsatzgruppen victims and Soviet partisans respectivley. As SM has shown earlier in this thread, Jews were overwhelminhly preponderant in the former and not nearly as well represented in the latter.

There was also scattered partisan activity - if that - at the time of the mass shootings. The wave of partisan insurrections would not come until a year later - a shas been shown.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Reaktori » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:04 pm

Have deniers ever even tried to justify the slaughter of Lithuanian Jews as being an anti-partisan operation? From what I've seen most of them just either keep quiet about it or try to brand the evidence, such as the Jäger report, as forgeries.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Reaktori wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:04 pm
Have deniers ever even tried to justify the slaughter of Lithuanian Jews as being an anti-partisan operation? From what I've seen most of them just either keep quiet about it or try to brand the evidence, such as the Jäger report, as forgeries.
Yes, over at RODOH (been-there of course) and in this thread with Monstrous quoting MGK or one of the three, I forget which. As many times as I told them that the “partisans” in Lithuania during summer 1941 were Lithuanian collaborators with the Germans, they played dumb. Data on whom the Germans shot was ignored or dismissed. Stupid mistake for them to apply that "argument" to Lithuania in ‘41 especially when Kovner’s famous meeting (we won't go like sheep to slaughter) didn’t take place until New Year’s Day 1942, after the main killing sweeps were completed.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:50 pm

In Werd's thread on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book, Hans has given Mattogno a good clobbering. Huntinger felt compelled to post some nonsense showing he doesn't know what he's talking about and Werd also makes a reply, sidestepping Mattogno's screw-up on SK 1005, which Sergey has posted about in this forum IIRC.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:00 am

More on Mattogno's new book on the Einsatzgruppen, this from Jon Harrison enumerating some of the flaws in the book (more to come, I am sure, so stay tuned) . . . Harrison's conclusion:
When all these claims against better knowledge, otherwise known as lies, are added together, we must conclude that Mattogno had no intention of producing a Handbook that would impress any person who had even a rudimentary knowledge of Nazi policy in the occupied USSR and the associated primary documents. He is preaching to fellow Nazi apologists, who are willing to overlook his absence of quality control.
Flaws are discussed in the following 7 sections:

1) Flawed Logic
2) Orders - here Harrison shows how limited is Mattogno's reading of current literature
3) Lying about the Organization of Killing
4) The Partisan Myth
5) Abuse of Sources on White Ruthenia
6) Example of False Claims of No Documentation
7) Example of Forgery Allegations
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:35 pm

The stunningly moronic Rodoh member Huntinger adds to his copious profile in idiocy with this brief "review" of the note on Mattogno's book by "Jonathan Harris" at HC (Huntinger does no better with Harrison's name than he does with the substance of his critique of Mattogno): https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 50#p137897

Leaving aside the matter of Mattogno's book, Harrison's numerous posts on the Einsatzgruppen and Muehlenkamp's multiple series on Lithuania, as well as this long thread (and the thread on Jewish-Communism), are sufficient to refute Huntinger's lame and oh-so-dated fulminations.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jonathan Harrison » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:43 pm

I would need a translator for Werd's sad word salad if I ever wanted to respond, which I don't.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:53 pm

He's bonkers. I think his latest post means he has an inkling he's in trouble, but deciphering what he means is difficult.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:55 pm

Whilst Werd tries desperately at Rodoh to hold onto something, anything (gas vans!) from Mattogno's book on the Einsatzgruppen, your friends at HC keep exposing various flaws and shedding light on the book's background, in the light of the criticisms of the Italian edition posted earlier at HC.

Here Roberto Muehlenkamp adds to the HC response to Mattogno (and Rudolf), and, in the first place, in so doing, gives an account of Mattogno's current responses to HC criticisms quite different to Werd's recent narrative.

There are also devastating comments on how Mattogno (and Rudolf) deal with the most pertinent secondary literature, key witnesses, and different kinds of source material in general.

Roberto wraps up with this:
We at HC also don’t mind "Revisionist" publications, insofar as they provide occasions for us to further explore and convey the facts of events that are of some interest to who cares about history.
Nice piece.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:26 pm

Jon Harrison adds an article to HC's critiquing of Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book - on Mattogno's struggles with Crimea
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:26 pm
Jon Harrison adds an article to HC's critiquing of Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book - on Mattogno's struggles with Crimea
If possible Mattogno seems to be getting worse at this...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:21 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:30 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:26 pm
Jon Harrison adds an article to HC's critiquing of Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book - on Mattogno's struggles with Crimea
If possible Mattogno seems to be getting worse at this...
Which must explain their excitement about the new book at Rodoh :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:21 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:30 am
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:26 pm
Jon Harrison adds an article to HC's critiquing of Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book - on Mattogno's struggles with Crimea
If possible Mattogno seems to be getting worse at this...
Which must explain their excitement about the new book at Rodoh :)
Guess he didn't want to confuse them with too many documents forgeries.... :mrgreen:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:00 am

Uh-oh, is Werd keeping up with this outpouring of commentary, or is he still blowing smoke up Mattogno's ass? Andy Mathis weighs in at HC: "Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Goody67 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:51 pm

According to Huntinger, the Einsatzgruppen never targeted Jews.

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p138659

He then backpedalled on himself and admits that they targeted the Jews, but according to him most of the Jews were partisans.

He simply believes the Nazi propaganda that claimed that the Jews were partisans.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:28 pm

He should read the material in the NMT volume covering the trial of Einsatzgruppen officials along with the HC articles on this and recent (sort of) books by Kay, Earl, Angrick, Dean, Burds and others to understand the killing operations in the occupied East. Too much to list off the top of my head ... the guy is an ignoramus.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:30 am

More from HC (Jon Harrison) on Mattogno's book: "Mattogno on the Killing of 4,273 Children in Kaunas [Kovno]"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:49 am

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:19 am

Part 3 of Andy Mathis' series on Mattogno's handling of Riga: "Mattogno on Riga, Part Three: Hierarchies Are Hard"

To date, at HC there have been the following pieces critical of Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book: Roberto Muehlenkamp's 6-entry series on Jäger and discussion of Rudolf's introduction; Hans Metzner's general commentary; Jon Harrison's initial observations, article on Crimea, and discussion of Kaunas; and the first 3 of Andy Mathis' 4 part series on Riga, for a total of 14 blog items.

This compares with the Rodoh thread for discussion of Mattogno's book, which remains just one post long, consisting only of VFX's single, ludicrous OP asking for start of chapter-by-chapter discussion.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:26 pm

The final part of Andy Mathis' short series on Mattogno's coverage of Riga is up at HC, the last post evaluating Mattogno's expertise and the quality of his work: "Polishing a Turd"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:39 pm

As at Rodoh, at Codoh too discussion of criticism of Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book has yet to begin: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12163.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:08 pm

Whilst Rodoh and Codoh struggle to say anything about Mattogno's new book, HC continues to publish substantive criticism: "Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part I: A Dilettante at Work" - mysterious individuals, befuddling nomenclature, and disappearing diesels!
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:35 pm

Updated listing of HC blog articles on Mattogno's new Einsatzgruppen book. Note the heavy utilization of German documents in these articles. Whereas the NMT Einsatzguppen trial relied on the EMs, the HC authors utilize a wide variety of reports and orders, as well as forensic evidence, along with materials from subsequent trials and recent scholarship. Deniers, who prefer handwaving away witnesses and burbling on about pseudo-technical "theories," have comprehensively failed to explain the existence of the documentation for the mass shootings in the East - and the alignment between witness testimony and such documents:

Mattogno takes on the Jäger Report (well, he tries) - Roberto Muehlenkamp

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5 (1)

Part 5 (2)

publishing history by Roberto Muehlenkamp

Germar Rudolf’s foreword to Mattogno’s Einzatzgruppen book

articles by Jon Harrison

Mattogno's Distortion of Orders in his Italian Einsatzgruppen Book

Some Initial Observations on Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen Handbook

Mattogno's Distortions on the Crimea

Mattogno on the Killing of 4,273 Children in Kaunas [Kovno]

Mattogno on Riga - Andy Mathis

Mattogno on Riga, Part One: Keine Liquidierung Revisited

Mattogno on Riga, Part Two: Phone Calls in Riga, Prague, and Berlin

Mattogno on Riga, Part Three: Hierarchies Are Hard

Mattogno on Riga, Part Four: Polishing a Turd

articles by Hans Metzner

SK Lange and Mattogno's Italian Book on the Einsatzgruppen

Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part I: A Dilettante at Work

Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part II: Mental Degeneration or Dishonesty, Your Choice!

(more to come)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:41 pm

And here, with all of three posts discussing what should be discussed in the thread, is the Codoh thread on Mattogno's new book, for comparison.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:41 pm
And here, with all of three posts discussing what should be discussed in the thread, is the Codoh thread on Mattogno's new book, for comparison.
So far I've managed to force myself to read the intro...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:05 pm

Codoh discussion on Mattogno's Einsatzguppen book and HC blog posts - just 4 posts, all about what to discuss - inactive since 9 December: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12163

Rodoh discussion on Mattogno's Einsatzguppen book, in the non-Nessie/non-Goody subforum - only 3 posts, quickly veering off to Dresden semantics - inactive since 17 December: https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 850b756c49
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:48 pm

Hans has published a new contribution at Holocaust Controversies in which he wonders why Mattogno's English book is of such poor quality: Mattogno, his Einsatzgruppen book and the Gas Vans. Part II: Mental Degeneration or Dishonesty, Your Choice!

The quiet from revisionist quarters is most embarrassing as HC writers continue to savage Mattogno's work.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:51 pm

Hmm silence you say?

Can't say that surprise springs to mind.

It would be fair to say that judging by the current occupants at rodoh that would be because being a border-line offensive Nazi wannabe ignoramus takes precedence. Attitude is key to being a re vision ist.

The top joke is that there are still some people who apparently maintain that debating, oh sorry 'serious' debate as one of their moderators claims spuriously is anything better than a silly waste of time.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:02 pm

The Codoh thread on Mattogno's book has not seen any additional activity even in the light of this monumental publishing event. The Rodoh thread has veered deeper into clown territory.

One of the buffoons at Rodoh has declared, without any sense of irony, that Mattogno's new book is "the definitive work on the Einsatzgruppen" but adds, "No, I've not read it."

Pressed on this, he explains that he knows the new book is "definitive" because "It's by Matoggno." Also, this buffoon, without replying to the arguments and evidence discussed months ago in Roberto Muehlenkamp's Jäger series, revives the IFWF line with regard to Jäger's report. Another idiot at Rodoh chimes in with cryptic references to pogroms and the NMT Einsatzguppen trial, also without discussing the pogroms, the trial, "Matoggno's" book, or the Holocaust Controversies pieces on "Matoggno's" book. It is a decisively strange form of "revisionism" that is unfamiliar with the literature which it wants to challenge and revise.

The "discussion" at Rodoh could have been had - and probably one like it was had - 10+ years ago. One gets the impression, as with the buffoon, that chimps don't read or learn: rather, they regurgitate and spew.

But no worries, Nessie and Goody will be along to wield the novel weapon of asking for evidence ...
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:15 am

Two chapters into Matogno's book. Reserving full commentary until fully read, I can say so far this is not to be counted similar amongst his other work unless something changes dramatically in coming chapters. There's something about this one that is, so far, just.... "off"...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:29 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:15 am
Two chapters into Matogno's book. Reserving full commentary until fully read, I can say so far this is not to be counted similar amongst his other work unless something changes dramatically in coming chapters. There's something about this one that is, so far, just.... "off"...
Good luck..... :D
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:46 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:29 am
Balmoral95 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:15 am
Two chapters into Matogno's book. Reserving full commentary until fully read, I can say so far this is not to be counted similar amongst his other work unless something changes dramatically in coming chapters. There's something about this one that is, so far, just.... "off"...
Good luck..... :D
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:30 pm

Rollo the ganger is surely one of the thickest deniers I've come across. Not content with his humiliating gaffe some years ago with Zhikharev Cyrillic Bold, he now tries creating a mystery about whether/where Jäger mentioned killing in his famous report!
rollo the ganger wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:01 am
This ought to be an easy one for the hoaxsters...

Since I don't read German maybe someone can point out to me, specifically, where in the Jaeger Report:

https://phdn.org/archives/einsatzgruppe ... mages.html

..it actually mentions actually "killing" someone? It doesn't have to be that exact word and I'm not saying the report doesn't say it, I'm just trying to examine the document for what it really says.

I assume VFX speaks German so maybe he can be of assistance if the hoaxsters are unwilling.

Thanks ahead of time.
Apparently Rollo has chosen not to read the very first line of of the report, among others.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... img001.gif

Still nothing in the thread on Mattogno's book about Mattogno's book or HC critiques of it.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Almost 3 weeks without any activity at Codoh in their thread on Mattogno's EG book, stalled at 4 posts.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:18 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:11 pm
Almost 3 weeks without any activity at Codoh in their thread on Mattogno's EG book, stalled at 4 posts.
Methinks that's not going to improve much...

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:24 pm

The only thing that could make it worse is if they started posting in the thread, as demonstrated by the idiots at Rodoh.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:33 pm

"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:00 pm

. . . and Trolljerkoff comments, adding to the slapstick performance over at Rodoh:
Trolljegeren wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:56 pm
Interesting synopsis on the gas van mythology here

There were no "gas vans" as such but what was used were "black marias" which were Polizei Vehicles" for transporting inmates. These were badly maintained and exhaust gas did enter the prisoner compartment area on several occasions resulting in the demise of the unfortunate inmates inside. This has morphed into the "gas van" mythology we hear today which never happened. The "Marias" were common Polizei vehicles world wide and used at Katyn to transport the prisoners to their execution site. Sadly the victims in the Marias were the result of poor maintenance of exhaust gases as happens world wide today in other vehicles. Enough said. End of this topic.
Image
The random photo clinches it . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Note total absence of evidence in this fanciful post - and Trolljerkoff's careful avoidance of Hans' arguments and the documents cited by Hans. Note too that TJ lifts not a finger to defend "Matoggno" from Hans' critique.

One twigs right away why it is that Trolljerkoff wants an "End of this topic." He's out of his depth and knows it.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"