Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hardly. You will have to deal with a lot of evidence in this thread to the contrary. For starters . . .
VFX wrote:Tell me what you thing the Action Squads were for.
This is what I "thing" the "Action Squads" were for:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474845
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474865
and from the Mass Graves thread: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p660179

The "think" is that you would know this if you could be arsed to read through the thread you're spamming.
You have no idea what the action squads were for. They were to eliminate terrorists from behind the army. These terrorist were sponsored by Stalin. As such, because they used women and children like ISIS do today they were treated as enemy combatants and dealt with by law.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:23 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .

You might find a whole lotta
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upon return. :lol:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .
Have a nice squat while you are away. So far you ain't doing so well on this forum

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:26 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Off for morning tea and some more Kellner . . . maybe VFX will grow a pair whilst I'm away . . .
Have a nice squat while you are away. So far you ain't doing so well on this forum
:laff:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:31 am

Forgot this one, for anyone actually interested: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ch#p510450

Personally uninterested in VFX’s emotional problems any further.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Personally uninterested in VFX’s emotional problems any further.
I am not interested in your bladder problems either, nor anal retention... have a nice day.. talk soon. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:47 am

We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474845
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 22#p474865
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p660179
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ch#p551320
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ch#p510450
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:
You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:48 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:
You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.
I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:12 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:
You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.
I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.
Groundless, I gave links prior to this regarding Stalins orders to put the Partisans into action. When you are dealing with Stalin I doubt anything is groundless. You seem to think these Einzsatgruppen were playing with civilians. That is your own bias. Find the links and if necessary I will give a full run down and the true intent of the Action Squads, not your airy fairy boy scout crap.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:28 pm

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:
You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.
I proved that they were not primarily "dealing with terrorists behind the line." My being told something erroneous - and disproven over and over - doesn't deal with the arguments and evidence discussed in what I linked to or in Muehlenkamp's series.

Your mere assertion is chronologically and numerically challenged, it flies in the face of what the Ereignismeldungen and other German reports say, and it contradicts testimonies from EG officers and others. All of this is detailed throughout this thread, in what I linked you to, and in Muehlenkamp's series.

I didn't ask you to repeat your groundless claim but rather to deal with what I posted. Until you can bring yourself to read and respond to material in this thread and Muehlenkamp's series, your big mouth is simply making noise.
Groundless, I gave links prior to this regarding Stalins orders to put the Partisans into action.
So what? The Einsatzgruppen were formed and given mission orders before Stalin's orders regarding partisans.
VFX wrote:When you are dealing with Stalin I doubt anything is groundless.
Your doubt is not relevant.
VFX wrote: seem to think these Einzsatgruppen were playing with civilians.
You seem to be saying that they were: "Old men, Old Women, children." Himmler for sure said they were. Here is one of the posts you've ignored:
Since these guys keep spouting denier cliches and cannot find a way to engage in the EG thread, let's lay out for folks here a bit of what the data say about Jews and partisans - and Jews and the German killing operations in the East:

NOTE 1. the %'s of victims of Einsatzgruppe B . . . posted by Hans in 2016:
Hans wrote:I'm certainly looking forward to Mattogno to explain this. Good luck, he will need it.

Death toll of Einsatzgruppe B:
Image

Breakdown of Einsatzgruppe B victims for 1941:

Image
[This matches fairly well with Jäger report, which deniers here describe as a forgery. Jäger report % of Jewish victims in operations of EK3 is actually in the high 90s.]

NOTE 2. A case from Lithuania

In April 1943, a report of the Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service in Lithuania to the Reich Security Head Office on the situation in Lithuania in April 1943 included item "7) Statistics about the activity of Dept IV in the General District of Lithuania for the period from January 1 to April 30, 1943." These statistics included data on the numbers of individuals subject during the period to arrest, search, imprisonment/confinement in a camp, or "special treatments" for various causes. The causes for action listed were

* Communism & Marxism
* Partisans & parachutists
* Russian POWs
* Sabotage & terrorism
* Resistance movement
* Jews
* Violation of decrees about … Jews
* Refusals to work
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts
* Political church
* Espionage
* Offenses committed by Germans

Of individual violators subjected to “special treatments,” the numbers were as follows:

* Jews - 4,230
* Partisans & parachutists - 32
* Communism & Marxism - 30
* Violation of decrees about … Jews - 1
* Refusals to work - 1
* Spreading of rumors & listening in to enemy broadcasts - 1

Note that the largest target of the action "special treatments" (execution) was "Jews." 98% of those killed were Jews, about 1% "partisans & parachutists," even in 1943. Why, if Jews were arrested and executed only as partisans as deniers have claimed, did the Security Police differentiate in the EG reports and such reports as the one described here between all other violations (including partisan activity, resistance, sabotage) and Jews?

(Documents Accuse, p 273)

NOTE 3. On partisans and the Jews . . .

On partisans in Belorussia and Ukraine:

- most Soviet partisan commanders did not welcome Jewish fighters; Dean quotes from one leader south of Baranovichi who dismissed Jews as cowards who'd given their valuables to the Germans and worked for them and only late in the war tried to save their skins by appealing to the partisans; would-be Jewish fighters could be simply rejected or even threatened with shooting; Jews without arms were generally sent packing

- Martin Dean quotes from a Soviet partisan leader near Slonim who argued that Jews didn't have the skills (firearms, military) to be of use - and, as Jews joined existing Soviet units to show "first of all that they did not go to the slaughter," they could be schooled and made into good fighters

- Dean gives the example of Jews who following the German liquidation of their ghetto, Nesvizh, in late spring 1942, approached an established partisan leader, this leader took under his protection some of the surviving Nesvizh Jews after they told him of the German murder action that had destroyed the ghetto, leaving them in hiding

- as was the case in the Baltics, many of the Jewish partisan units, Dean says of Belorussia and Ukraine, were more family camps maintained in the forests to protect Jews from further actions and from which some of the members attempted revenge actions; these were not effective military forces

- by late 1943 and into 1944 (well after the period under discussion - more than a year after the last EG report) some Jewish partisans in the region were able to join Soviet partisans in attacking transportation facilities

- the partisan units in Belorussia and Ukraine did not include many Jewish fighters, e.g., the "Stalin" brigade with 1,000 members in fall 1943 (located near Brest) had 3% Jews and 32% Russians, 38% Belorussians, and 10% Ukrainians; in the Nalibocki forest area, in contrast, by fall 1943 about 12% of the partisans were Jews (again, this total was reached well after the period we're debating about) - but there were many Jewish family camps in this area, boosting the % of Jews - overall, "there were some 370 000 Soviet partisans in Belorussia in 1944, of whom about 4 to 5 per cent (or 15 000) were Jews" - this is what deniers would have us believe constitutes a significant Jewish threat to Wehrmacht - and somehow explains the mass murder of over 100s of 1000s of Jews during 1941 and 1942! (Dean adds that in Volhynia, where there was less overall support for the Soviet partisans, therefore the Jewish % was higher - about 14% - but that Jewish participation elsewhere in Ukraine "was considerably lower")

- the "nucleus of growing Soviet partisan resistance from the summer of 1942 came from Soviet PoWs, who were driven into the forests by the threat of starvation or being shot"; only later, in 1943 and thereafter, did Jews surviving the 2nd wave of the German extermination actions (which wiped out Jewish communities throughout the region) augment these forces appreciably; there was a tendency in the region of Dean's study for Jews late in the war to be overrepresented by % of population in the partisan brigades - because very few Jews were left alive and a high % of few remaining survivors joined the brigades for revenge and/or defense purposes after their communities had been slaughtered by the Germans and only as a result of the mass killings - this is what deniers would have us believe represents Jewish originating of partisan warfare in the occupied USSR

- overall, according to Dean, membership in Soviet partisan units reflected more the makeup of the local population than anything but Russians were well represented generally

- in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overly hostile to Jews; Dean cites a case where Polish underground reports referred to "Jewish-peasant gangs" as plunderers; the Polish units were also hostile to Soviet partisan brigades and cooperation between Polish and Russian units was "sporadic"

- the famous Jewish partisan Tuvia Bielski was denounced by the NKVD for helping his fighters avoid conscription into the Red Army as the Red Army advanced (Bielski simply disbanded his brigade so members could not be conscripted) - Bielski himself fled to Palestine

source, Martin Dean, Collaboration in the Holocaust: Crimes of the Local Police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941-44 pp 124-126, 141-143, 156, 165
You will notice that it deals with % of victims (who was targeted), the evolution of partisan warfare in the East, and the Jewish role in partisan warfare. Please provide comparable data and explanation for your mere assertions.
VFX wrote:That is your own bias.
No, it was what the evidence says, as you would know if you'd bothered to read the material you've been provided or the thread you're commenting in.
VFX wrote:Find the links and if necessary I will give a full run down and the true intent of the Action Squads, not your airy fairy boy scout crap.
Please, try to refute, with evidence, what I've linked you to and Muehlenkamp's series.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:49 pm

:hmm: The user seems to prefer the Einzatzgruppen terrorists over airy fairy boy scouts, who prolly make him run and hide when they wear their uniforms. :lol:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:53 pm

scrmbldggs wrote: Einzatzgruppen terrorists
They were not the terrorist, these were the "good guys", the terrorists were the Partisans.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:55 pm

more mere assertion; the more you post, the more you clarify why HD is thought of, even by neo-Nazis, as "strategic buffoonery"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:28 pm

Jon Harrison writes at HC on the genocidal mission of the Einsatzgruppen, with the murder of children at Bila Tservka and reflections on Judeo-Bolshevism in the background: "Bila Tserkva, 'Gegenrasse' and the Ideological Roots of the Nazi Murder of Jewish Children"
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jon Harrison writes at HC on the genocidal mission of the Einsatzgruppen, with the murder of children at Bila Tservka and reflections on Judeo-Bolshevism in the background: "Bila Tserkva, 'Gegenrasse' and the Ideological Roots of the Nazi Murder of Jewish Children"
Did you find that one eye witness or historian that was talking from the 40's yet? Bogus sh-t that's copyrightes in 2009 just ain't gonna cut any mustard with me numbnuts.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:21 pm

montgomery wrote:...me numbnuts.
The member is really losing it. :lol:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:59 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:We get VFX's attempt to equal the bathroom humor of 7-year-olds rather than even the most minimal effort to deal with, or refute what's in, these links, which provide general background on what I think the EGs were about:
You were told they were dealing with terrorists behind the line. These terrorists like ISIS today consisted of Old men, Old Women, children. It happened that many of them were Jewish and agents of Stalin. They were ordered by Stalin to attack supply lines, cause disruption. No doubt innocent people got caught up in this mayhem but for the most part they were dealt with as spies and shot.
Ok so

1. Equating resistance fighters commanding the occupation of their country with imperialist, apocalyptic mass murderers is offensive on every level and would have gotten you banned on a lot of forums.

2. Most Soviet partisans in from 1941-1942 were red army soldiers left behind in the chaotic Russian retreats in the Summer of 1941. They were not old men, old women, or children, who by definition are incapable of engaging in combat.

3. Jews were not predominant in partisan groups anywhere outside of the Baltics, where they made up less than 20% of most formations generally speaking - and only from 1943 onward. It is true that there were some all-Jewish formations, but they were not very common. The brunt of the Partisan war was waged in the Pripyat Marshes by formations that were overwhelmingly ethnic Belorussian and Russian.

4. The proportion of Jews murdered in the EG actions were staggering - 90+% in some cases (such as Lithuania). This was dramatically out of proportion with all Jewish participation rates in any partisan groups.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:16 am

Jeff_36 wrote:3. Jews were not predominant in partisan groups anywhere outside of the Baltics, where they made up less than 20% of most formations generally speaking. It is true that there were some all-Jewish formations, but they were not very common. The brunt of the Partisan war was waged in the Pripyat Marshes by formations that were overwhelmingly ethnic Belorussian and Russian.
Jeff, the Jewish partisan units in the Baltic region didn't form until after the bulk of the partisans in the area were operating - and this was long after the large Einsatzgruppen sweeps of summer-fall 1941. They were thus not the reason for which the Germans undertook EG operations in the region.

To quote Nick Terry on the region, "far from being burdened by 'fighting partisans', 'the Einsatzgruppen' in the form of Einsatzkommando 3 benefited from the assistance of 'partisans', who could fight and identify the few Soviet sympathisers and were let loose to wipe out all Jewish communities other than a handful of work ghettos."
Jeff_36 wrote:4. The proportion of Jews murdered in the EG actions were staggering - 90+% in some cases (such as Lithuania). This was dramatically out of proportion with all Jewish participation rates in any partisan groups.
He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:3. Jews were not predominant in partisan groups anywhere outside of the Baltics, where they made up less than 20% of most formations generally speaking. It is true that there were some all-Jewish formations, but they were not very common. The brunt of the Partisan war was waged in the Pripyat Marshes by formations that were overwhelmingly ethnic Belorussian and Russian.
Jeff, the Jewish partisan units in the Baltic region didn't form until after the bulk of the partisans in the area were operating - and this was long after the large Einsatzgruppen sweeps of summer-fall 1941. They were thus not the reason for which the Germans undertook EG operations in the region.
I am aware of that (hence my edit) and I only brought the info to bear as a preemptive measure in case VFX twisted it out of context. There was little partisan activity in the Baltics before 1943. It would seem that the later activity was mostly comprised of ethnic Russians and Jews, with the altter being survivors of the massacres of '41.

He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
I made that post before I read your (far longer, more detailed) response.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:27 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
The Soviet partisans were members of resistance movements that fought a guerrilla war against the Axis forces in the Soviet Union, the previously Soviet-occupied territories of interwar Poland in 1941–45 and eastern Finland. The activity emerged after the Nazi German Operation Barbarossa during World War II, and according to Great Soviet Encyclopedia it wascoordinated and controlled by the Soviet governmentand modeled on that of the Red Army. The primary objective of the guerrilla warfare waged by the Soviet partisan units was the disruption of the Eastern Front's German rear, especially road and rail communications. There were also regular military formations called partisans, that were used to conduct long-range reconnaissance patrol missions behind Axis lines from the Soviet-held territory. Read more from source :)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:29 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
The Soviet partisans were members of resistance movements that fought a guerrilla war against the Axis forces in the Soviet Union, the previously Soviet-occupied territories of interwar Poland in 1941–45 and eastern Finland. The activity emerged after the Nazi German Operation Barbarossa during World War II, and according to Great Soviet Encyclopedia it was coordinated and controlled by the Soviet governmentand modeled on that of the Red Army. The primary objective of the guerrilla warfare waged by the Soviet partisan units was the disruption of the Eastern Front's German rear, especially road and rail communications. There were also regular military formations called partisans, that were used to conduct long-range reconnaissance patrol missions behind Axis lines from the Soviet-held territory. Read more from source :)
And.......????? :lol:

This is a quote from the article that you linked:
Jewish women, children, and the elderly were usually not welcome.


Are you a spoof?
Last edited by Jeff_36 on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:32 am

The partisans were terrorists and treated as such. They were controlled by the Soviets.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:35 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:3. Jews were not predominant in partisan groups anywhere outside of the Baltics, where they made up less than 20% of most formations generally speaking. It is true that there were some all-Jewish formations, but they were not very common. The brunt of the Partisan war was waged in the Pripyat Marshes by formations that were overwhelmingly ethnic Belorussian and Russian.
Jeff, the Jewish partisan units in the Baltic region didn't form until after the bulk of the partisans in the area were operating - and this was long after the large Einsatzgruppen sweeps of summer-fall 1941. They were thus not the reason for which the Germans undertook EG operations in the region.
I am aware of that (hence my edit) and I only brought the info to bear as a preemptive measure in case VFX twisted it out of context. There was little partisan activity in the Baltics before 1943. It would seem that the later activity was mostly comprised of ethnic Russians and Jews, with the altter being survivors of the massacres of '41.
Just don't want these guys to get any goofy ideas :)

In Lithuania, for example, in 1943-1944 IIRC we are talking about 1500-1700 Jewish partisans. That's it. Two years after the big killing operations. (Sorry for adding Nick's quotation while you edited!)
Jeff_36 wrote:
He has yet to comment on the data, preferring to push out his slogan like some kind of warped advert.
I made that post before I read your (far longer, more detailed) response.
Those stats, as you rightly pointed out, are fatal for his claims, along with the timing of the development of the partisan movement and details on how the execution actions were conducted, which had nothing to do with anti-partisan warfare.

Note: unfortunately for Mr Smiley Face I get to see his attempt to post a rebuttal when cross-posting - what he is quoting from Wikipedia is from the general discussion of Soviet partisans, not either the Baltic region or Jewish partisans in the Baltic region, the topic we were discussing. His own source discusses, as you did, small groups of stranded Red Army soldiers in 1941 and a growing movement in 1942. Which has nothing to do with the Jewish massacres in summer and fall 1941, well before Jews in small numbers made for the forests and tried to join the partisan groups - in large part responding to the German persecution and massacres. Also, Jews were often barred from joining the Soviet backed partisan units, not always, but often.

Just as a time marker, the Vilnius call to Jews to resist - where Kovner used the "sheep to slaughter" image - was New Year's Day 1942, after the great majority of Lithuanian Jews had been murdered.

A quick glance at Wiki just doesn't cut it.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:36 am

VFX wrote:The partisans were terrorists and treated as such. They were controlled by the Soviets.
How would you react if, say, Red China invaded your home country and started ethnically cleansing the population? You would fight. They were (for the most part) on the side of the angels. It was the murdering SS and Orpo who were the terrorists.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:41 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote:The partisans were terrorists and treated as such. They were controlled by the Soviets.
How would you react if, say, Red China invaded your home country and started ethnically cleansing the population? You would fight. They were (for the most part) on the side of the angels. It was the murdering SS and Orpo who were the terrorists.
The equation Jews = partisans is ignorant of the partisan movement. Here's another case, not from the Baltic region. It involves nascent partisan activity (fall 1941) supposedly being fought by German special units, in this case EG-C:

In November 1941, Soviet Communist partisan leader Terentii Novak sent an emissary into the Rovno (Ukraine) ghetto to warn the Jews there of Communist intelligence showing an impending German plan to commit a mass murder of the Rovno Jews. The intent was both to warn to Jews and to stir them to oppose German interests by rebelling against the German occupation.

To meet these goals, the partisans met with leaders of the Rovno Jews. The Jewish leadership - of whom Maryzilla, Monstrous, and even to some degree Jeff seem to be equating with partisans - took the position that the Jews would not fight the Germans, even to defend themselves. The partisan emissaries reported to Novak that the Jewish elders had asked them "Why are you striking such fear in the hearts of us unfortunates? Our people have angered the Lord our God and He has sent Hitler as retribution for our sins. It is wrong to struggle against the will of the Highest One."

The partisan agents having been rebuffed by the Jewish elders, commander Novak himself subsequently met with a young Jewish woman favorable to the partisans; she told him that no one in Rovno's Jewish community would support the partisans and resist the Germans.

Everywhere he turned, Novak was met with refusals - with disbelief, with fear of the consequences of resistance, or with the conviction that Novak was a provocateur. Eventually, some Jews threatened to denounce Novak to the police if he would not leave them alone. Novak then gave up his effort to enlist Jews in a rebellion against the Germans and left Rovno.

(from Jeffrey Burds, Holocaust in Rovno: The Massacre at Sosenki Forest, November 1941, pages 41-42)

During fall 1941 in the Rovno area, then local Jews and their leaders opposed the nascent partisan movement.

Nonetheless, the report of Einsatzgruppe C dated 8 December 1941 described laconically what happened in Rovno within days of Novak's departure from the city:
Since November 6 and 7, 1941, an action against the Jews that had been prepared for some time was carried out in Rovno, where about 15,000 Jews were shot. According to the orders of Higher SS and Police Chiefs, the organization of this action was in the hands of the German Order Police. Aussenkommando Rovno of Einsatzkommando 5 participated substantially in carrying out this Aktion.
Previous to this, in keeping with the Nazi fantasy view of the role of Jews, on which depends the argument that the EG's were actually fighting partisans when they slaughtered masses of Jews, and in contrast to the specific evidence provided by partisan commander Novak, Einsatzgruppe C, the unit in this region, made the delusional and self-serving report that
It need not be particularly stressed that Communist agitators received very warm support from the Jews. Under the prevailing conditions, it is important to stop the activity of the Jews in Volhynia and to remove thereby the most fertile soil from Bolshevism. The extermination of the Jews, who are, without any doubt, useless as workers and more harmful as the carriers of the bacillae of Communism, was necessary.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:43 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote:The partisans were terrorists and treated as such. They were controlled by the Soviets.
How would you react if, say, Red China invaded your home country and started ethnically cleansing the population? You would fight. They were (for the most part) on the side of the angels. It was the murdering SS and Orpo who were the terrorists.
Deutschland was being invaded morally, spiritually and physically by the Untermenschen. They were not subhuman but
like modern day gang culture portrayed themselves as such. If people act that way then they should be treated so.
The Shutzstaffel were given the task of wiping this scum out of the way.
In any war the opposite side is treated in the same disregard: they are the enemy. The real terrorists were the Soviets and their Partisans who deserved their fate. Deutschland fought for the integrity of Europe but failed. Now National Socialist type parties are rising to eliminate the threat: this time it is not Jude.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote:The partisans were terrorists and treated as such. They were controlled by the Soviets.
How would you react if, say, Red China invaded your home country and started ethnically cleansing the population? You would fight. They were (for the most part) on the side of the angels. It was the murdering SS and Orpo who were the terrorists.
VFX, fight? :lol:

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:50 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
ein Liebhaber, kein Kämpfer
You are the one who said you did my brother.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:58 am

These reports on Jewish massacres in the occupied East do not describes anti-partisan warfare:
1) General Rowecki, Polish Home Army (ZWZ-AK) commander from June 1940 to June 1943, reported on 29 September 1941 in “Sprawy żydowskie” that “The Germans are murdering Jews en mass[e]. In the hills of Ponary, 400 to 500 Jews are being shot daily.” (Joshua Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 99) Rowecki supplemented this news with a report of 15 December 1941 stating that the Jews were “being killed off in Lithuania.” (Zimmerman, p 111) Rowecki further reported on the situation in Vilnius in March 1942, writing that “The situation of the Jews continues to deteriorate,” citing the reduction of the city’s Jewish population from 80,000 to 20,000 by the end of 1941. (Zimmerman, p 136) Also, reports of the Delegatura, e.g., on 8 April 1942, described the murders of Jews in the Vilnius area. (Zimmerman, p 136)
* See the Jäger report entries for 8 August - 1 September 1941 (total 444 victims), then 2 September (3,700), 12 September (3,434), 17 September (1,271) (concerned with EK-3, a part of EG-A, the Jäger report does not cover shootings by EK-9, a unit of EG-B, operating in the Vilna area up to early August), see also EG report for 13 July 1941 (“OSR 21”) reporting liquidation of 321 Jews on 8 July 1941 and stating that “about 500 Jews, saboteurs among them, are liquidated daily” (Arad et al, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 22) ; Kazimierz Sakowicz, Ponary Diary 1941-1943, pp 11-30 for a Polish journalist-witness’s account of the daily shootings at Ponar during this period; a report of the German 403rd Security Division in June 1941 gave the population of Vilnius as 80,000 (a figure used in many other contemporary sources).

2) Annex o Terrorze, a publication of the Polish ZWZ-AK’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda (BIP), wrote in its 16-30 September 1941 issue that “the German army has unleashed a monstrous reign of terror on the Jews . . . with a sizable participation of the local people” including in “Bialystok (burning several hundred Jews alive in the synagogue, the slaughter of Jews by the German army in Wizna . . . )” (Zimmerman, p 100) Biuletyn Informacyjny, the main newspaper of the Polish underground, would report this action on 30 April 1942. (Zimmerman, p 142)
* The synagogue Aktion was the work of Police Battalion 309, not of an Einsatzgruppe. See Sara Berger, The Jews of Bialystok, pp 90-93, estimating the number of victims at 800; also USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, vol 2, part A, p 866 (also gives 8000 figure, entry by Bender); EK-8 was active in the Bialystok area according to EG reports; see below for note on the Wizna action referred to

3) About six weeks later, a subsequent edition Aneks o Terrorze (16 October - 15 November 1941) reported further on anti-Jewish actions in the Bialystok region, commenting on pogroms as well as distinctly German operations: “from October executions of Jews are being carried out in the Bialystok region without regard to age and sex.” The report mentioned specifically that in Lomza “some 1800 Jews were murdered on September 1st; in the town of Rutki, 640.” (Zimmerman, p 111)
* The Lomza action is described in USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 918 (where the action is dated 1 September or 17 September 1941) and here: http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Lomza/; the action was carried out, according to the USHMM Encyclopedia, by “an SS unit from Ostrołeka); the actions at this time involved towns near Lomza, including Rutki, Wizna, Stawiska, and the infamous Jedwabne (USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 918; the Rutki massacre of about 450 Jews by SS took place on 6 September according to USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 984)

4) An intelligence report of the ZWZ-AK’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda, made in fall 1941, stated that German massacres in Rowne and Łuck had killed 22,000 Jews, that in Łuck the Germans had requisitioned 1.2 million złoty and large amounts of gold and silver from the Jews, and that on 6-7 November about 12,000 Jews had been shot in Łuck. (Zimmerman, p 116) In addition, a Polish underground report from the Lwów area, dated 15 December 1941, referenced the shooting of 17,000 Jews in Rowne. (Zimmerman, p 116)
* See EG report no. 143, dated 8 December 1941 - “On November 6 and 7, 1941, an action against Jews that had been prepared for some time was carried out in Rovno, where about 15,000 Jews were shot” (Arad et al, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 252); the massacre of Jews in Rowne (Rovno) is described by Jeffrey Burds, Holocaust in Rovno: The Massacre in Sosenki Forest November 1941; see also USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1459-1461; the operation was ordered by HSSPF Korseman and involved Police Battalions 315 and 320, EK-5 (from EG-C), and the 33rd Police Reserve Battalion (EG report no. 143: “According to the orders of Higher SS and Police Chiefs, the organization of this action was in the hands of the German Order Police. Aussenkommando Rovno of Einsatzkommando 5 participated substantially in carrying out this Aktion.”)

5) Polish major Marian Wlodarkiewicz reported from Vilnius on 16 December 1941: “It should . . . be known that in Vilna, Baranowicze, Lida, Grodno and even in Riga and Tallinn, in the towns and cities and villages, is occurring the bestial administration of mass murder of Jews with excessive zeal . . . with the innate cruelty of the Gestapo and their Lithuanian helpers. . . . Today, in all the cities of prewar Lithuania and in the Vilna province, a campaign has been launched to slaughter the whole of Jewry.” As of 1 October 1941, Wlodarkiewicz estimated, 30,000 Jews had been murdered at Ponar, outside Vilnius. (Zimmerman, p 117)
* The estimate of the Polish underground for Jewish deaths at Ponar in early fall 1941 was about double the number of deaths that can be tallied from EG reports and the Jäger report - prior to Jäger’s arrival, at least about 5,000 Jews were murdered by the Germans and their Lithuanian auxiliaries at Ponar; according to Jäger, during August and September about 8,745 Jews were murdered at the site - or a total of just under 14,000 victims. Another 2,300 Jews were murdered as well on 1 October itself in the “Yom Kippur Action.” See Jäger report; Arad, Ghetto in Flames, p 210
* According to the USHMM Encyclopedia (vol 2, part B, pp 1166-1168), Jews from towns in which the Germans had carried out murder actions arrived in Baranowicze during fall 1941. During fall 1941, EKs 7b and 8 were active in Baranowicze, carrying out relatively small killing actions (e.g., 60 communists reported in EG report no. 25, 19 July 1941; 301 “Jewish activists, officials, and looters” as stated in EG report no. 32, 24 July 1941 - and confiscation of 25,000 rubles in cash; “an action against 157 Jews” - carried out in collaboration with the German army and GFP and field gendarmerie - mentioned in EG report no. 43, 5 August 1941; as well as other executions in the town).
* Einsatzgruppe B’s report of 13 July 1941 (no. 21) said that “Only 96 Jews were executed in Grodno and Lida during the first days. I have orders to intensify there activities.” On 5 August 1943 (EG report no. 43), EG-B noted unquantified “executive police measures” in Lida, among other cities and towns, targeting “active Jewish intelligentsia” as well as communist party officials, NKVD agents, criminals and looters, and others, who “were rendered harmless” and whose assets were confiscated. Events in Lida are dealt with in USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1225-1226 - the murders in Lida started with the killing of 92 educated Jews who were shot outside town on 5 July by EK-9.
* The USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 891, describes murders by EG-B in Grodno during fall 1941; as noted above, a small number of Jews “were executed” in Grodno according to EG report no. 21 (13 July 1941); EG report no. 43, quoted above, mentioned “executive measures” in Grodno along with those in Lida.
* A major murder action in Riga was carried out two weeks before Wlodarkiewicz’s report - according to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1020-1021, over 11,000 Jews were murdered in Rumbula forest by Order Police units under the command of HSSPF Jeckeln (1,000 of the victims had arrived on a transport from Berlin); a second murder action in Riga was carried out, killing about 14,000 Jews, on 8 December - with EK-2 under Rudolf Lange supporting the HSSPF’s units. The 30 November 1941 Riga murders were described in EG report no. 151, dated 5 January 1942, giving an estimate of 4,000 Latvian and German victims of the “shooting action.”
“ The elimination of Jews from Estonia - 2,000 Jews living in Talllinn when the Germans occupied the country - was described in Reports from the Occupied Eastern Territories, no. 6, 5 July 1942, as “Jews were gradually apprehended by the Security Police” until “there are no more Jews in Estonia.” (Arad, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 347)

6) Biuletyn Informacyjny carried an article in its number for 15 January 1942, describing how the “Jewish population has disappeared from the majority of cities and towns” in eastern areas. “For example, in Borysov, Mołodeczno, and Mogilev - not a single Jew left.” (Zimmerman, pp 130-131) The Mołodeczno action was further discussed in a report made by Rowecki on 29 April 1942. (Zimmerman, p 138) An early note on Mołodeczno had traveled by courier from the Vilnius area to Polish Home Army headquarters in Warsaw in December 1941, like Rowecki’s report stating that only a single Jewish doctor had survived the massacre there. (Zimmerman, p 116)
* Liquidation actions in Borisov were described in EG reports nos. 43 (size of action unstated), 73 (118 persons), 92 (“176 more Jews”), 108 (“After these mopping-up operations, there were no more Jews left north, south, and west of Borisov. In Borisov itself, a further 118 Jews were liquidated. . . “), 124 (83 persons among them “seditious Jews”), and 148 (146 Jews shot). According to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1652, the major killing operation in Borisov occurred on 20-21 October 1941, when SS units working with local police and Latvian auxiliaries murdered 7,245 Jews.
* In Mołodeczno, SK-7a carried out shooting two actions in July 194; a third action, against male Jews in Mołodeczno, was conducted by Wehrmacht troops in late October 1941, after which those Jews remaining in the town were confined in a small ghetto. USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1243.
* Citing Tätigkeits- und Lagebericht no. 3 (15-31 August 1941), the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1704, describes the first shooting action against Jews in Mogilev, when 80 Jews considered capable of leadership were executed by EK-8 under Otto Bradfisch. (These executions are also referenced in EG report no. 108, 9 October 1941.) The encyclopedia further explains that formation of the Mogilev ghetto (covered in EG report no. 125) in mid-August was accompanied by shooting of Jews. Mass killing actions, aimed at liquidating the ghetto on Dubrovenka River, occurred in October 1941 - EK-8 was joined by Police Battalions 316 and 322 as well as a Ukrainian Schutzmannschaft battalion and police; over 5,000 Jews were killed in the two October actions. Gas vans were used at this time. EG report no. 133 (14 November 1941) explained the operation this way: “On October 19, 1941, a large-scale operation against the Jews was carried out in Mogilev with the aid of the Police Regiment ‘Center.’ 3,726 Jews of both sexes and all ages were liquidated by this action. . . . On October 23, 1941, to prevent further acts of sabotage and to combat partisans, a further number of Jews from Mogilev and the surrounding area, 239 of both sexes, were liquidated.” (Arad, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, pp 234-235)

7) On 23 March 1942, Woliński reported on an action, utilizing both Lithuanian auxiliaries and Polish militiamen, which had taken place during November 1941 in Slonim (Zimmerman, p 135)
* According to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1275, a major action occurred in Slonim in mid-November 1941, conducted by the German Security Police, Wehrmacht, Latvian and Lithuania auxiliaries, and Belorussian police, in collaboration with the German Gebeitskommissar, Erren. Erren reported on the action in January 1942, saying that it removed 8,000 “unnecessary hungry mouths.” About 7,000 Jews were kept alive to work for the Germans and, according to Erren, “they work willingly owing to their constant fear of death, and in the spring they will be most carefully vetted and selected for a further reduction.” See also Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, pp 150-151.

8) A report of the Polish underground’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda made in April 1942 included details that murders in the East carried out by the Germans continued to involve machine guns but now included poison: the Jews were said to be eliminated by Kaunas, the dramatic reduction of the Jewish population in Vilnius was reiterated, and a summary of the situation of Jews in Lwów was provided. Other communities in which anti-Jewish actions were described included Izbica, Mielec, Rawa Ruska, Kock, and Ryki. (Zimmerman, p 137) On 10 December 1942, the Polish Minister for Foreign Affairs addressed the United Nations and described the mass extermination of Jews by the Germans in Poland. He reinforced that the two principal means of mass murder were shooting and gassing: “At first, the executions were carried out by shooting. Subsequently, however, it is reported that the Germans applied new methods, such as poison gas, by means of which the Jewish population was exterminated. . . .” (Zimmerman, p 181)
* Jäger,’s report, which covered the period through 1 December 1941, gave the Jewish population for Vllnius as follows: “Wilna approximately 15,000 Jews”; since about 5,000 Jews were in hiding and living “illegally” in Vilnius ghetto following the wave of murder actions carried out in summer and fall 1941, it would appear that the approximately 60,000 Jews had been murdered at Ponar during 1941.
* Kaunas: In Jäger’s report we read, “Kauen approximately 15,000 Jews.” This was a reduction of 25,000 from the pre-Barbarossa population of the city. It was not until summer that the working Jews who had remained in Kaunas were removed from the work camp there, those who survived the clearance operation mostly taken to Stutthof and Dachau.

9) The intelligence/counter-intelligence department of the Home Army reported on 1 July 1942 that the Germans had carried out executions in the Braslaw ghetto and had murdered 3,000 Jews in the surrounding area. (Zimmerman, p 149)
* USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1170-1171: German Security Police and gendarmes and local policemen carried out an operation against the Jews in Braslaw ghetto in early June 1942; young Jews had organized and put up resistance; still, about 2,000 Jews were rounded up and shot in ditches outside the town; after two days the Germans halted the shootings and let it be known that Jews in hiding would be amnestied on turning themselves in - a few days later, after a number of Jews had come forward, the shootings resumed. According to a report made by Wilhelm Kube, Generalkommissar for Weissruthenien, on 1 July 1942 “No special problems were encountered on June 3, 1942, when the ghetto in the county town of Braslav, in the northwest of the region, was liquidated along with its 2,000 Jews.” (quoted in Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, p 253)

10) Oh, it should also be noted that the Polish underground was not uniformed as to the work of Sonderkommando 1005 in destroying the evidence of the crimes of the Germans in the east: on 4 November 1943 Biuletyn Informacyjny reported that what it described as “liquidation actions” concerning the mass graves of the Jews, where Germans were said to be burning the bodies of victims to conceal the murders. (Zimmerman, p 364)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: - in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overly hostile to Jews; Dean cites a case where Polish underground reports referred to "Jewish-peasant gangs" as plunderers; the Polish units were also hostile to Soviet partisan brigades and cooperation between Polish and Russian units was "sporadic"
Now I hate to be pedantic but this was not always the case. The Home Army (AK) was a very decentralized organization with a wide variance in local cells/formations, each of which treated local Jews differently. In some cases they were indifferent, but in other cases they went out of their way to aid them - Franciszek Zabecki at Treblinka and the Zoska Battalion at the Wharsaw Ghetto Uprising for example. There was an all-Jewish battalion of the AK that partook in the Warsaw uprising of 1944. There were also, as Dean rightfully pointed out, episodes of hostility between the AK and local Jews, but these varied based on region. No full picture is possible.

The National Armed Forces (NSZ) on the other hand were monolithically and violently antisemitic, and were known to carry out massacres and robbery of Jewish refugees in the later period of the war. Several of their classified memorandums (published on HC) express satisfaction and approval for the Nazi final solution, while opposing the occupation itself.

The Armia Ludowa was a joke, utterly ineffective at fighting the Germans, generally cannon fodder in most cases. They had a number of Jewish members but often committed violent atrocities against Jewish civilians.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:00 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: - in heavily Polish areas, the partisans themselves were often overly hostile to Jews; Dean cites a case where Polish underground reports referred to "Jewish-peasant gangs" as plunderers; the Polish units were also hostile to Soviet partisan brigades and cooperation between Polish and Russian units was "sporadic"
Now I hate to be pedantic but this was not always the case. The Home Army (AK) was a very decentralized organization with a wide variance in local cells/formations, each of which treated local Jews differently. In some cases they were indifferent, but in other cases they went out of their way to aid them - Franciszek Zabecki at Treblinka and the Zoska Battalion at the Wharsaw Ghetto Uprising for example. There was an all-Jewish battalion of the AK that partook in the Warsaw uprising of 1944. There were also, as Dean rightfully pointed out, episodes of hostility between the AK and local Jews, but these varied based on region. No full picture is possible.

The National Armed Forces (NSZ) on the other hand were monolithically and violently antisemitic, and were known to carry out massacres and robbery of Jewish refugees in the later period of the war. Several of their classified memorandums (published on HC) express satisfaction and approval for the Nazi final solution, while opposing the occupation itself.

The Armia Ludowa was a joke, utterly ineffective at fighting the Germans, generally cannon fodder in most cases. They had a number of Jewish members but often committed violent atrocities against Jewish civilians.
Jeff, "were often," not always.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:05 am

VFX wrote: Deutschland was being invaded morally, spiritually and physically by the Untermenschen.


I thought we hanged the last of your ilk at the NMT.
They were not subhuman but
like modern day gang culture portrayed themselves as such. If people act that way then they should be treated so.
Who are you referring to? The Jews of Berlin , who were overwhelmingly middle class and identified strongly as Germans? Gang culture? Are you out of your mind?
Deutschland fought for the integrity of Europe but failed.
Why did they invade 11 countries, attempt to turn Poland and Russia into slave colonies, and raze much of Europe to the ground? The Nazi state was the greatest enemy that Europe has ever had.
Now National Socialist type parties are rising to eliminate the threat: this time it is not Jude.
They failed in France and they came a distant third in...well....Germany actually :lol:
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Jeff, "were often," not always.
He is saying "Statistically significant" with close to a 90% probablility. This is why scientists use statistical language.
Jeff is correct, often but not always.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:07 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
I thought we hanged the last of your ilk at the NMT.
Nope, I am a mere debater with an open mind. What on earth are you talking about.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:09 am

VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Jeff, "were often," not always.
He is saying "Statistically significant" with close to a 90% probablility. This is why scientists use statistical language.
Jeff is correct, often but not always.
What on earth are you on about now?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:10 am

Jeff. The biggest problem I have with how you are responding here is that in your zeal to defend partisan warfare against the Germans you’ve confused two issues. The massacres of Jews were not on account of partisan activity but rather to exterminate Jews as the way to make territory Jew-free. What you think of the partisans is different to that. And in much of the occupied east really a later issue.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:11 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
VFX wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Jeff, "were often," not always.
He is saying "Statistically significant" with close to a 90% probablility. This is why scientists use statistical language.
Jeff is correct, often but not always.
What on earth are you on about now?
Lol he is trying to figure out the difference between often and always but struggling to do so.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by VFX » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Lol he is trying to figure out the difference between often and always but struggling to do so.
It is obvious this man has no ability to use precise language which is the core of all inquiry this is its death knell so to speak. It shows his ineptitude.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Jeff. The biggest problem I have with how your responding here is that in your zeal to defend partisan warfare against the Germans you’ve confused two issues. The massacres of Jews were not on account of partisan activity but rather to exterminate Jews as the way to make territory Jew-free. What you think of the partisans is different to that. And in much of the occupied east really a later issue.
Look, I realize that the massacres of Jews by the EG's predated the most significant spike in partisan warfare. I also understand that the "partisan" label used by the Olhendorfs and Jagers of the time was bogus, often comically so. However, what I am doing is proving that VFX's contention is still false, even if we fight on his terms - even if we do discuss the period where Jewish participation in partisan warfare was at its height, we still see nowhere near the same percentages as the ones you documented of EG victims. The fact that there was three years of difference separating the two is a coup de grace from the perspective of a debate.