Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Discussions
User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:02 pm

Monstrous wrote:Leon Wells has the distinction of being mentioned in the HolyHoax Museum:
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-arch ... -leon.html
Well, that's quite an argument: link to a denier website on Wells' Eichmann trial testimony, when I mentioned his book. Also neat trick for you to ignore posts you never answered on "old business" (e.g., rebuttals on Ohlendorf, Weber, etc) as well as posts with new arguments (Romania, "ten confirming sources" I summarized, Töpperwein, SD opinion reports, actions against Lithuanian Jews, Faitelson, gas vans, Sergey Romanov's blog post, CSDIC secret recordings). That's a shitload of material you waltzed by to spam your crap link to "the HolyHoax" website. Come on, do something besides posting links that are beside the point.

Whilst you're shaking your pom-poms and cheering for yourself, I wonder: are you able to construct an argument of your own? or are your capabilities limited to copy-paste and link dropping?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:42 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:(Kittel was also recorded describing mass executions of Jews by German police and Latvian auxiliaries near Daugavpils, Latvia, in summer 1941 - including his efforts to make the murders less public and more orderly.)
I wanted to flesh this evidence out a bit. Information relative to the CSDIC recording of Kittel:
In December 1944, Generalleutnant Heinrich Kittel, commander of 462 Volksgrenadier division, told General-major Paul von Felbert, commandant of Feldkommandantur 560: "The things I've experienced! In Latvia, near Dvinsk [Daugavpils/Dünaburg], there were mass executions of Jews carried out by the SS.

"There were about 15 SS men and perhaps 60 Latvians, known to be the most brutal people in the world. I was lying in bed one Sunday morning when I kept hearing two salvos followed by small-arms fire."

On investigating, Kittel found "men, women and children - they were counted off and stripped naked. The executioners first laid all the clothes in one pile. Then 20 women had to take up their position - naked - on the edge of the trench. They were shot and fell down into it."

"How was it done?" asked Felbert.

"They faced the trench," Kittel replied. "And then 20 Latvians came up behind and simply fired once through the back of their heads, and they fell down forwards into the trench like ninepins."

Kittel gave an order forbidding such executions from taking place "outside, where people can look on. If you shoot people in the wood or somewhere where no one can see," he told the SS men, "that's your own affair. But I absolutely forbid another day's shooting here. We draw our drinking water from deep springs; we're getting nothing but corpse water there."

"What did they do to the children?" asked Felbert. Kittel - who sounded "very excited" at this point, according to the transcriber - answered: "They seized three-year-old children by the hair, held them up and shot them with a pistol and then threw them in. I saw that for myself. One could watch it."

Another general, General-leutnant Hans Schaeffer, commander of the 244 Infantry division, asked Kittel: "Did they weep? Have the people any idea what's in store for them?"

"They know perfectly well," replied Kittel. "They are apathetic. I'm not sensitive myself, but such things turn my stomach."

Later on, however, Kittel mused: "If one were to destroy all the Jews of the world simultaneously, there wouldn't remain a single accuser," and "Those Jews are the pest of the east!"

"What happened to the young, pretty girls?" asked Felbert, when the subject turned to concentration camps. "Were they formed into a harem?"

"I didn't bother about that," Kittel answered. "I only found that they did become more reasonable. The women question is a very shady chapter. You've no idea what mean and stupid things are done."

In another conversation later that same day, Kittel told Schaefer about Auschwitz: "In Upper Silesia, they simply slaughtered the people systematically. They were gassed in a big hall. There's the greatest secrecy about all those things."

Later still, he said: "I'm going to hold my tongue about what I do know of these things." He little suspected that his every word was being recorded, transcribed and translated.
See also on Daugavpils in German reporting.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:05 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:The EG was battling partisans and in that battle large number of Jews were murdered.
Leaving aside the Nazi phantasm that Jews = Bolsheviks = partisans, here's another case showing the utter vacuity of Mary's blithe, dishonest assertion.

Lithuanian police and German units were sent to Slonim in November 1941 to help clean out the Jewish ghetto and eliminate some of the 22,000 or so Jews living in the Zabinka quarter there. At the time, many of these Jews worked for the Germans in nearby quarries and other workplaces.

Conditions in the ghetto led to young Jews organizing themselves and forming a resistance group. The Jewish underground got hold of fireams. When in the autumn the underground learned of the impending action against the Jews, leaders were able to reach partisans operating in the Slonim area and establish tenuous contacts with these fighters. (M.-M. Nolte, in Thurston & Bonwetsch, The People’s War: Responses to World War II in the Soviet Union, p 39; Slonim Yizkor Book, pp 48-49)

The Germans proceeded with their plan to reduce the size of the ghetto. "On 14 November, 9,000-10,000 Jews without work permits were removed and shot." (Cesarani, p 398) In January 1942, the Slonim city commissioner, Gerhardt Erren, reported on the ghetto clearance action - providing the reasons for the action. Erren submitted a 22-page report to Berlin summarizing the situation in Slonim since early fall, of which a single page dealt with the Jews in Slonim. Erren's report, without detailing the multiple forces involved, said that the Sipo had carried out the November operation against the Slonim Jews. Ironically - and sadly for Mary's claims - Erren did not mention partisan activity in connection with the November Slonim action (see Cholawski, The Jews of Bielorussia during World War II, p 142) but rather cited the housing and food situation in Slonim:
The Juden-Aktion of November 14, 1941 has greatly ameliorated the housing problem and also rid us of 10,000 unnecessary mouths to feed.
Erren also said that 7,000 Jews remained and
have entered the labor process, and are doing it willingly, out of a constant fear of death
following a prior killing action in July and the large November action. (Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, pp 150-151; Nolte, in Thurston & Bonwetsch, The People’s War: Responses to World War II in the Soviet Union, pp 35-36) Erren also noted that the Jews who remained in the ghetto following the November action were only to be kept alive for a year or so when they would be "checked and sorted for a further reduction." During that time, Erren wrote,
The best of the skilled workers among the Jews will be made to pass their skills on to intelligent apprentices in my craft colleges, so that Jews will finally be made dispensable in the skilled craft and trade sector, and can be eliminated.
A detailed description of the November Slonim action is in Beorn, Marching into Darkness: The Wehrmacht and the Holocaust in Belarus, pp 142-148, noting involvement of SS, units of Reserve Police Battalion 69, Lithuanian auxiliaries, and the 6th Company, 727th Infantry Regiment, in the shooting of Slonim Jews in Czepilov Forest.

This is one way "anti-partisan warfare" worked in Belorussia following the German invasion: the mass murder of "useless mouths" among the Jews to reduce the Jewish population and to free up housing and food for the Germans along with ghettoization and other measures to temporarily maintain needed Jewish forced laborers and exploit them for the German war effort.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:49 pm

IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:14 pm

Monstrous wrote:IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581
I have no idea what you're talking about. What Enigma signals do you mean? Where did I write what you now claim? (Your link takes me to the OP of the thread on Auschwitz decodes - which you wrote, not me.)

Anyway,
1) tell us which Enigma signals and decodes you're referring to
2) quote where I presented evidence that "Enigma transmissions" show the EG reports were falsified
2) explain how it is that Enigma messages prove EG reports to be faked

(My guess is that your lack of background has gotten you confused about something or other.)
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Monstrous wrote:IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581
here is some definitive proof of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, including their use of Gas vans. Do you propose that the Swiss were part of a Jewish conspiracy?

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:14 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581
here is some definitive proof of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, including their use of Gas vans. Do you propose that the Swiss were part of a Jewish conspiracy?
Switzerland in 1944? Sounds like a retelling of the Vrba–Wetzler report mentioned in the press in Switzerland + some Soviet gas vans propaganda that had been used for years, hardly anything new.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:19 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581
here is some definitive proof of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, including their use of Gas vans. Do you propose that the Swiss were part of a Jewish conspiracy?
Switzerland in 1944? Sounds like a retelling of the Vrba–Wetzler report mentioned in the press in Switzerland + some Soviet gas vans propaganda that had been used for years, hardly anything new.
The Vrba-Wetzler report covered Einsatzgruppen and other killing operations in the occupied USSR? Did you check the provenance of the source? Do you know who provided the information for the Swiss report? Or do you plan to just spew unrelated nonsense?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:52 pm

Monstrous, you seem to have overlooked this post:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:IMPORTANT UPDATE!!!

Statistical Mechanic has presented some Monstrously good anti-Believer evidence. The TOP SECRET Enigma transmissions show that the EG reports are faked!!!

See: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26581
I have no idea what you're talking about. What Enigma signals do you mean? Where did I write what you now claim? (Your link takes me to the OP of the thread on Auschwitz decodes - which you wrote, not me.)

Anyway,
1) tell us which Enigma signals and decodes you're referring to
2) quote where I presented evidence that "Enigma transmissions" show the EG reports were falsified
2) explain how it is that Enigma messages prove EG reports to be faked

(My guess is that your lack of background has gotten you confused about something or other.)
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:04 pm

I show him a report from Swiss military intelligence and he talks about Rudolf Vrba?

And he was accusing us of dodging?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:07 pm

Oh hell, let's just have done with this:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:The Vrba-Wetzler report covered Einsatzgruppen and other killing operations in the occupied USSR?
No, it didn't. It deals with Aushwitz-Birkenau
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Did you check the provenance of the source?
Of course you didn't. You just decided to try to make readers think that the report which Jeff linked to had to do with the Vrba-Wetzler report on account of the year and "Switzerland." In doing this, you forgot your own false claims, that the information about the EGs was faked by the Soviets, not by the Swiss, not by Vrba-Wetzler. You are now confusing even yourself with your lies and inane clutching at straws!
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Do you know who provided the information for the Swiss report?
Of course you don't. It was written by a German defector to Switzerland, a former SD officer.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Or do you plan to just spew unrelated nonsense?
Of course you do. You don't really know anything, so it is your only way out of jams you create.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:38 pm

The point being that any claim originating in Switzerland at this time is contaminated by awareness of the Vrba-Wetzler report and other propaganda stories being published in the press there.

Anyway, the claims of some anonymous defector wanting to sell information to the Swiss intelligence is not worth much without more background on how he supposedly gained this info. Likely just repeating propaganda rumors he had heard somewhere.

That absolutely no one seems to have bothered with using this story as Holocaust evidence (according to Google, except Nick Terry) shows how valueless it is.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:43 pm

Monstrous wrote:The point being that any claim originating in Switzerland at this time is contaminated by awareness of the Vrba-Wetzler report and other propaganda stories being published in the press there.
In the first place, the Vrba-Wetzler report didn't contaminate a section of a report on the Einsatzgruppen since it had nothing to do with the Einsatzgruppen. Second, now you need to show how this contamination occurred - which means detailing for us what was going on in Switzerland, who was involved, and how "contaminating" information flowed across all claims and information coming from anyone in Switzerland and particularly how the report on Auschwitz contaminated a statement made by an SD officer.
Monstrous wrote:Anyway, the claims of some anonymous defector wanting to sell information to the Swiss intelligence is not worth much without more background on how he supposedly gained this info. Likely just repeating propaganda rumors he had heard somewhere.
How did this SD officer who defected in Switzerland learn what you say was being concocted in the USSR? How did he know about "Nebe's gas vans"? How did learn about SS concerns with nervous breakdowns and alcoholism among Einsatzgruppen killers? How did he come to know the career highlights of Max Thomas and about his injury in anti-partisan operations? The methods of killing Jews employed in the east?
Monstrous wrote:That absolutely no one seems to have bothered with using this story as Holocaust evidence (according to Google, except Nick Terry) shows how valueless it is.
Google is not in this instance your friend. The document is also used by Christian Gerlach, one of the preeminent historians of the Holocaust. I feel certain that Nick Terry will be happy to be in that company. Even so the argument that a document is not commonly used is scarcely an argument against its meaning or importance. In this case, Jeff showed yet one more entirely independent piece of convergent evidence for the Einsatzgruppen operations that further rubbishes your "forged in Russia" claim.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1921
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Balsamo » Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:48 pm

According to GOOGLE?
Seriously?

I knew a guy nicknamed "googlers", maybe the same guy, how is he? Still so full of {!#%@}? But at least Googlers was funny at parties. So one may be speaking of two different persons...

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:46 am

Monstrous wrote:The point being that any claim originating in Switzerland at this time is contaminated by awareness of the Vrba-Wetzler report and other propaganda stories being published in the press there.
This was not a survivor account. It was a Swiss Military intelligence memo. Do you think Swiss Military intelligence was in on the "ewow conspiwacy"?
Anyway, the claims of some anonymous defector wanting to sell information to the Swiss intelligence is not worth much without more background on how he supposedly gained this info. Likely just repeating propaganda rumors he had heard somewhere.
He was party to the happenings of the Einsatzgruppen. It happened under his nose. This is coming from the horses mouth. Are you really that ignorant?
That absolutely no one seems to have bothered with using this story as Holocaust evidence (according to Google, except Nick Terry) shows how valueless it is.
No, it shows how diligent Dr. Terry is at his craft.

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:52 pm

Monstrous wrote:Anyway, the claims of some anonymous defector wanting to sell information to the Swiss intelligence is not worth much without more background on how he supposedly gained this info. Likely just repeating propaganda rumors he had heard somewhere.
How did this SD officer who defected in Switzerland learn what you say was being concocted in the USSR? How did he know about "Nebe's gas vans"? How did learn about SS concerns with nervous breakdowns and alcoholism among Einsatzgruppen killers? How did he come to know the career highlights of Max Thomas and about his injury in anti-partisan operations? The methods of killing Jews employed in the east?
Postwar fake by some Jew or Communist (possibly both) in the Swiss intelligence?

Real SD defector selling some rumors he had heard mixed with some real knowledge of the SD? That the EG were killing some Jews and deporting the rest to ghettos is not disputed.

These claims are useless without some background on who this claimed individual is and how he supposedly got this info.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:54 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Anyway, the claims of some anonymous defector wanting to sell information to the Swiss intelligence is not worth much without more background on how he supposedly gained this info. Likely just repeating propaganda rumors he had heard somewhere.
How did this SD officer who defected in Switzerland learn what you say was being concocted in the USSR? How did he know about "Nebe's gas vans"? How did learn about SS concerns with nervous breakdowns and alcoholism among Einsatzgruppen killers? How did he come to know the career highlights of Max Thomas and about his injury in anti-partisan operations? The methods of killing Jews employed in the east?
Postwar fake by some Jew or Communist (possibly both) in the Swiss intelligence?
Evidence for this leap of yours into the unknown? In truth, when asked your explanations I didn't have in mind your simply making stuff up and clutching at straws but your giving us an explanation and evidence for it. I should have known better.

It's worth pointing out that a third historian, Gaston Haas, uses this document - Haas in Wenn man gewusst haette, was sich drueben im Reich abspielte..' Was man in der Schweiz von der Judenvernichtung wusste 1941-1943 published over 20 years ago, in 1994 in Basel. The document has a precise archival location, which, for example, is provided in Gerlach's book, with credit to Haas for first making use of the document, although for different purposes than Gerlach's.
Monstrous wrote:Real SD defector selling some rumors he had heard mixed with some real knowledge of the SD? That the EG were killing some Jews and deporting the rest to ghettos is not disputed.
The defector worked in the police and SD; you do know the connection of the SD to the Einsatzgruppen, don't you? So your new argument is now that information about the Einsatzgruppen carrying out mass murder of the Jews was well known - and didn't come from the Soviets at all but through SD/police sources? And your further explanation for this statement "zur Ausrottung der gesamten Ostjuden" is that the officer was referring to the mass murder of a few Jews and their being deported to ghettos? And this statement "Nach dem Kriegseintritt Amerikas wurde auf Fuehrerbefehl die Ausrottung saemtlicher europaeischer Juden veranlasst. Zwar wurden vorerst, um diese Aktionen zu tarnen, den vom Fuehrer beauftragten Stellen erklaert, es handle sich um einen Arbeitseinsatz der Juden, z.B. vom Lager Auschwitz (in Oberschlesien) fuer die Kohlenbergwerke" should be read to further explain the "killing of some Jews and deporting the rest to ghettos"?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:16 pm

We've already posted on another source of information reaching the SD - what German troops from the east were saying when back home on leave or having returned from duty. These are SD sources, not Soviet ones as Monstrous keeps trying to have it. Monstrous chose not to comment on this chain of reports touching on the Germans' mass shootings of Jews in the east.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4957
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:55 pm

Monstrous wrote: Postwar fake by some Jew or Communist (possibly both?) in Swiss intelligence?
That is the most absurdly idiotic hypothesis ever aired in the history of this board. Just when I think you have reached the absolute depths of stupidity you somehow manage to shatter the proverbial floor and set a new standard of half-hearted, paranoid, imbecilic speculations.
Real SD defector selling some rumors he had heard mixed with some real knowledge of the SD? That the EG were killing some Jews and deporting the rest to ghettos is not disputed.
Did you read the report? yes or no?
These claims are useless without some background on who this claimed individual is and how he supposedly got this info.
Umm, clearly he was an SD officer as specified in the report. Switzerland was neutral and if anything leaned towards the axis, why would they fake this?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:58 pm

On p 255 Gerlach quotes a January 1942 letter from Schmitt (of Einsatz Eichenhain) to Johann Rattenhuber (chief of the Reichssicherheitsdienst, RSD) in which Schmitt complained that the Romanians allowed Jews to die by starvation rather than implementing the murder method in their territory which the Germans had been using with such success against the Jews under German control:
the Romanian government exposes the Jews . . . to starving to death because it does not dare shoot them according to the German model.
Schmitt proposed that the Germans step in to help the Romanians
to solve the Jewish question as it happens in the occupied East (by shooting).
Another convergent document confirming the German actions against the Jews as described in the Ereignismeldungen and shown in other contemporary sources. I am of the view that we can take it as stipulated for the purposes of this forum, given Monstrous' failure to continue any defense of his absurd claims, that the Ereignismeldungen (Einsatzgruppen reports, OSRs) were authentic. With this, we join the real world in our understanding of these documents.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:30 am

Two more documents cited by Gerlach underscoring the hollowness of Monstrous' claim about Soviet forgery of EG records concerning the mass annihilation of Jews in the occupied USSR, the first document from the 339th Infantry Division and found today in the Bundesarchiv (Military archive in Freiburg): this Infantry Division's report noted that on account of German actions Jews had little choice but to seek refuge in the forests and with partisan groups - in the words of the report:
because of the partially conducted mass shootings
which the Germans had carried out against Jewish communities (situation report for 5 November 1941, p 294).

The second document, found elsewhere in the Bundesarchiv, is a report by Himmler on his meeting with Mussolini (11 October 1942); in his meeting, according to his report, Himmler had informed Il Duce that Jews were being removed from Germany and German-occupied countries, according to Gerlach, "as saboteurs and spies." Mussolini approved when Himmler explained German actions in the Soviet Union also in the context of sabotage and spying, presaging some of his remarks at Posen and Sonthofen, adding "that many Soviet Jews, including women and children, were shot for such reasons." (quoting Gerlach, p 290)

Again, as Monstrous refuses to grasp, the evidence for mass shooting of Soviet Jews by different German units, among them the Einsatzgruppen, comes from a variety of independent sources, including German documents, not only from the Ereignismeldungen. This fact alone renders Monstrous' imagined fabrication of the Ereignismeldungen a ludicrous proposition. We've shown multiple sources of evidence for specific actions described in the Ereignismeldungen, and we've shown general statements about the policy of mass murder from various German sources. We've also asked repeatedly, in vain, for Monstrous to tell us what positive evidence exists for Soviet fabrication of a single source among these various sources, which, given the web of evidence for the mass shootings, would have been a rather redundant exercise in any event.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:09 pm

Earlier in the thread, Monstrous pretended he was through posting because
Monstrous wrote:Neither has there been any attempt to answer the completely impossible claims regarding "Sonderaktion 1005"
There have been numerous posts providing evidence about SK-1005 since then, to supplement the earlier posts. I have been following, too, Sergey Romanov's blog entry at HC on SK-1005, in which he shows the dishonesty, and shoddy dishonesty at that, of Monstrous' gurus, Mattogno and Graf. This piece, which I linked to earlier (here's also brief note on it) has been updated and is well worth reading in the light of Monstrous' blithe dismissal of evidence for SK-1005 (elsewhere in this thread, I posted on the material from Faitelson which Romanov also describes at HC).
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:45 pm

Two additional convergent sources for German mass murder of Jews in the occupied USSR, further rubbishing Monstrous' claim that Soviet forgery created the source-bank for knowledge about these murders - both relating to communications and meetings involving the Italian fascists:

1) "On 24 October 1942, the secretary of the PNF [Italian Fascist party], Aldo Vidussoni, communicated to Mussolini that on the Russian front 'shootings [of Jews] is the order of the day, and even against large numbers of individuals of every age and sex. . . . [E]ntire cities and villages have been reduced by up to one-third and one-half of their population, due especially to the elimination of the Jews.'"

2) "On 11 October 1942, Heinrich Himmler met Mussolini in Rome and informed him that . . . 'In Russia we have had to shoot a large number of Jews, men and women, because there even the women and children had become informers for the partisans.'" The foreshadowing of Himmler's Posen and Sonthofen remarks in this statement is interesting.

source: Michele Sarfatti, The Jews in Mussolini's Italy: From Equality to Persecution, p 358
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:14 pm

There are just so many sources on the shootings of Jews in the occupied USSR that 1) confirm the EG reports and 2) show that deniers are making things up when they assert that the EG reports are Soviet fabrications. I will keep using this thread to note more such sources as I come across them, which anyone reading about this period can't help doing!

1) Paul Culberston, US Department of State, Division of European Affairs, received information from two representatives of the American Joint Distribution Committee in Hungary, Jacobson and Blum, concerning the massacre of expelled Hungarian Jews at Kamenets Podolsk which the Germans, under Jecklen, carried out in late August 1941. On 26 September 1941 Culbertson reported this information to the Joint leadership in the US. He wrote of the Hungarian Joint sources that they had learned of the massacre "from a trustworthy Hungarian officer, an eyewitness" and that "The number killed is placed as high as 15,000 according to other reports. Fleeing people and praying Jews in synagogues were machine-gunned. Corpses reported floating down the Dniester River. . . . The efforts of the Hungarian Red Cross to alleviate the situation have been quite ineffective," implying that the Red Cross was also aware of the mass murder. These is at least this glaring inaccuracy in Culbertson's report: most historians put the number of victims at 23,600 - a figure which comes from Einsatzgruppen Report no. 80 (11 September 1941) ("In Kamenets-Podolsk 23,600 Jews were shot in three days by a Kommando of the Higher SS and Police Leaders"), discussed along with other documentary evidence for this massacre here by Roberto Muehlenkamp. Just how Monstrous will twist this report and the other documents concerning the Kamenets Podolsk shootings into Soviet forgeries will be a sight to behold. (quotation from Culberston, Livia Rothkirchen, The Jews of Bohemia & Moravia: Facing the Holocaust, p 250)

2) An Abwehr double agent - Paul Thümmel ("René," A-54) working for Czechoslovak Military Intelligence starting 1936 (Rothkirchen, pp 230-231) - who reported to his Czech contacts accurately primarily on Germany's military plans and operations - also made a very early report to Czech intelligence, conveyed from Prague to London (to "Pavel") on 26 July 1941, on German massacres of Jews in the occupied USSR: "The driver of the Prague Gestapo chief, who returned from the eastern front, reports that in the Ukraine the Jewish question is radically solved. Immediately on the occupation of a location, the Jewish men are summoned to forced labor and under the pretense of preparing fortifications they are to dig pits. When these are long and deep enough they are being shot and covered with earth." (Rothkirchen, p 177; Breitman, Official Secrets: What the Nazis Planned, What the British and Americans Knew, pp 95, 275) It is interesting that Thümmel's report undermines early historiography on the extermination campaign in the east which assumed that on occupying territory there, the Germans immediately exterminated all Jews; rather, Thümmel's July 1941 report is in line with recent findings, discussed in this thread, about the escalation of shootings from an early phase in June-early August, when the Germans targeted working-age men, to the destruction of entire Jewish communities by late summer 1941. Rothkirchen notes that early study of Thümmel's work neglected his report on the massacres in the occupied east (p 375). I wonder if Monstrous would like to tell us where the Czech Government in Exile was located, and where Thümmel's Czech liaison, spy-master František Moravec made his base of operations. Was it Moscow?
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:50 am

In fall 1941, culminating 8-10 October, Einsatzkommando 9 of Einsatzgruppen B, led by Dr Alfred Filbert, liquidated the Jewish ghetto in Vitebsk, where the Kommando had been stationed since no later than 2 August.

- during its time in Vitebsk, EK9 had carried out a number of different actions - massacres of Jews in nearby towns (Jewish victims included Jews of all ages and both males and females), executions of single Jews or small groups of Jews, anti-partisan operations (stepped up at this time), execution of a group of Roma, executions of Communists and suspected Communists including Red Army commissar and NKVD members, interned POWs or others turned over for execution, and miscellaneous arrests and executions on various charges such as escape from imprisonment and theft; killings were by shooting (by far most of them) or hanging; in some actions the EK was assisted by units of the Wehrmacht; operations included at least 3 ghetto liquidations; some of the executions are noted in Ereignismeldungen (Einsatzgruppen reports or EMs) or TuLBs, some not

- the liquidation of Vitebsk ghetto in October 1941 was not on account of security or food supply but according to EM 124 on account of Seuchengefahr (danger of epidemics) in the overcrowded ghetto, EK9 having pushed Jews from the area into the small ghetto; the liquidation began with a shooting squad (utilizing Waffen-SS soldiers attached to EK9) under the command of Wilhelm Greiffenberger, Filbert's deputy; EK9 commander Filbert was present during subsequent operations and on these occasions allowed shooters to drink schnapps, which was not usual practice in EK9; the 3rd of the 4 operations was led by Bobo Struck, a Kriminalkommissar; the final actions were conducted at Ilovskii ravine; there were no Jewish survivors of the ghetto liquidation - between 5,800 and 7,700 Jews were shot

- evidence for this operation, besides the aforementioned German documents, includes the court testimony of members of EK9 and an eyewitness from the regular German army who told another German NCO, recorded in November 1944 while in British custody, that the operation was one of the "many times" he'd "seen . . . how they knock off Jews there" in Russia; the Jews "had to undress themselves" before the executions; the victims "were beaten like anything on the way" to the execution site; "One of them was over eighty, almost ninety, he could barely walk"; "The youngest who was shot was thirteen and the oldest was over ninety"; that victims included the Jewish women and girls - "Everyone"; that the Vitebsk action took place after "an epidemic broke out in [the camp] because the people couldn't look after themselves, or anything. They got nothing to eat, nothing at all. Naturally disease broke out, and so on, so they gunned down the whole camp with machine guns, they were simply blown away, in Vitebsk. About 5,000 people. Men, women, children, the whole kit and caboodle, everyone." (see below for review of source material for EK9's Vitebsk 1941 operations)

- while in Vitebsk from early August until late October 1941, EK9 killed between 13,300 and 16,000 Jews in 24 separate actions; 14 of these actions had over 100 victims each; the average number of Jews killed in each action was at least 577
- during the same nearly 3 months, EK9 killed 40 suspected partisans and people assisting partisans, Communists, officials, Red Army soldiers and commissars in 17 separate actions; the largest of these actions had 10 victims and the average number of victims was 2+
- during this period, 1 action was conducted by EK9 against Roma, in this action 23 Roma were shot
- during these same weeks, EK9 conducted 8 other killing actions against miscellaneous suspects of crimes, Russians, etc killing 14 people; on average, 1+ person was killed in each action
- Jews were 99.4% of EK9's victims during its stay in Vitebsk; suspected partisans and Communists, 0.3%; Roma, 0.2%; and others, 0.1%

- the vast majority of people killed by EK9 were murdered during the unit's nearly 3 months in Vitebsk; Alex Kay estimates from the unit's various reports that its victims during the first 4 months of operation during the Soviet campaign amounted to about 18,000 dead; 99% of these victims were Jewish men, women, and children, and the rest were Roma, Red Army commissars, other Soviet POWs, officials, informants, and partisans; Kay concludes that EK9's death toll is not typical in that the Kommando was attached to the 403d Security Division, which, contrary to the general orders, rather than handing captured commissars to the Einsatzkommando for execution, conducted such executions on its own (by contrast, according to data on EK3, commanded by Colonel Jäger in Lithuania, "only" 97% of EK3's victims were Jews - versus 99+% for EK9)

- the data on EK9 show clearly that the unit specialized in murder of Jews; its other "security" tasks were conducted on a greatly reduced scale compared to the unit's anti-Jewish operations
- sources for EK9's Vitebsk operations are manifold and include EMs and TuLBs; correspondence and reports of Wehrmacht units; postwar perpetrator interrogations, statements, and trial testimony; population data on Soviet towns and cities; miscellaneous German police documents; a contemporary letter written by a Jewish inmate of Vitebsk to her children; documents from the Mogilev anti-partisan school; and a transcript of captive German soldiers' conversations recorded secretly

source: Alex Kay, The Making of an SS Killer: The Life of Colonel Alfred Filbert, 1905-1990, pp 60-75

Will Monstrous and Maryzilla be telling us how the evidence used by Kay was supposedly manufactured in the Soviet Union – when and under what circumstances – and what the evidence shows that the actions of EK9, in their opinion, really were? And will these revisionist geniuses also explain how EK9 was really an anti-partisan task force when its operations claimed 330 times the number of Jewish victims as suspected partisan, Communist, etc victims?

next topics from Kay's book will be:
1) basic orders received by Filbert and the escalation of killing to include entire Jewish communities
2) accuracy of EK9's reports
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:11 pm

What instructions regarding the priorities and tasks of Einsatzkommando 9 did Filbert receive from his superiors, and what instructions did Filbert convey to the leadership and rank and file of EK9? Did the scope/nature of Einsatzgruppen actions escalate during summer 1941, and, if so, how?

26 March 1941: Heydrich note

Heydrich sent notes from a meeting he had on 26 March 1941, in preparation for the invasion of the USSR, to a select list of six men, with a note to include a seventh. The notes were marked “strictly confidential.” The recipients included: RFSS Himmler, Gestapo Müller, Walter Schellenberg (RSHA head of Counter-Espionage withing RSHA Office IV), Bruno Streckenbach (RSHA Office I head, Personnel), Otto Ohlendorf (head of RSHA Office III – SD-Inland), and Filbert (deputy chief RSHA Office VI – SD-Overseas). Müller’s name was annotated “also for Eichmann’s information.” Filbert was the most junior recipient – the annotation for his name (“for SS-Brif, Jost”) explains the situation, as Filbert’s boss, Jost, was by this time office chief in title whilst Filbert led the actual department work.

Two key points of Heydrich’s note, which he signed, were as follows:
“10. Regarding the solution to the ‘Jewish Question’ I briefly reported to the Reichsmarschall and presented him with my draft, of which, with an alteration regarding the jurisdiction of Rosenberg, he approved and ordered resubmission.”
And
“11. The Reichsmarschall said to me, among other things, that in the event of an operation in Russia we should prepare a very short, 3-4 page briefing that the troops could get, about the dangerousness of the GPU organization, the political commissars, Jews, etc., so they more of less know whom they have to put up against the wall.”

Given Eichmann’s being brought into the information loop, and the clarification regarding Rosenberg in terms of the Jewish question, Kay interprets point 10 to refer to the then-current concept of a territorial solution for the European Jews in the conquered territory of the USSR. Point 11 targeted for execution certain groups, including some Jews, during the invasion of the USSR: “Filbert was thus among a small group of perhaps around 10 men who were privy to German plans for the fate of both Soviet Jewry and European Jewry as a whole.”

March or April 1941: Heydrich discussion

Filbert was to testify after the war that his first notification of plans for the invasion of the USSR came during a discussion he had with Heydrich in March or April 1941 – at which were also present Müller, Streckenbach, and Arthur Nebe (who would head EG-B and thus become Filbert’s commander. According to Filbert, he did not learn at this meeting that executions, including those of Jews, would be required of the EGs in the field. Given Filbert’s receipt of Heydrich’s 26 March 1941 note (“so they more of less know whom they have to put up against the wall”), Kay discounts Filbert’s postwar plea of ignorance at this juncture.

May-June 1941: Pretzsch meetings

Filbert attended to famous Pretzch orientation meetings for EG leadership, organized by Streckenbach.

17 June 1941: meeting with Heydrich at his Berlin headquarters

According to Kay, in line with other scholars, “It was most likely here, on this day, that the EG and EK chiefs were expressly informed that their commission in the area of operations would involve the decimation of Soviet Jewry. . . .Heydrich had probably specified that the Jewish intelligentsia and as many male Jews of military service age as possible be killed, since these groups were regarded by the German leadership as likely Communist activists and potential partisans.” Kay’s argument is that the orders given to the EG leaders most likely conformed to the written orders issued by the OKW to Wehrmacht troops as well as Heydrich’s 2 July 1941 “written communication” to the HSSPFs (who had not been present at the 17 June meeting but were to collaborate with the EG leadership) – where Heydrich targeted among others “Jews in party and state positions.” Kay makes two points about this: by mentioning Jews at all, Heydrich prioritized liquidation of Jews and by the nature of his list of targets (and the use of “etc.”), Heydrich encouraged his commanders to sue initiative and go beyond the literal orders (for example, Roma were not mentioned yet became victims during the summer).

End of June: Filbert meeting with his commando at Treuburg

During EK9’s movement into the USSR during the first week of Barbarossa, Filbert assembled the commando members during a stopover at Treuburg and specified their orders, including “the so-called Führer order . . . according to which the Einsatzkommandos in the rear areas had the task of shooting Soviet Jews. Both Greiffenberger and Tunnst later testified – independently of one another – that they interpreted the order at the time as being limited to Jewish men.” Two other members of the commando recalled that Filbert mentioned also Roma; one of these members recalled mention of “other subversive elements”; the other recollected that Filbert had also called out “commissars and functionaries.”

The early actions of EK9 – in Grodno, Lida, Vilnius, and Oszmiana – conformed to the above understanding, as the commando executed Soviet commissars, POWs, and Jewish men. Within these parameters, however, there was an escalation, as in the Oszmiana action in late July a sub-commando murdered 527 Jewish men, the entire male Jewish population of the time.

1 July 1941: Heydrich dressing-down of Nebe

Heydrich put into writing a reprimand of Filbert’s commander, Nebe, on 1 July; the reason for the reprimand was that during an inspection of Grodno that day Himmler and Heydrich had found no members of the Security Police and SD on the scene. According to Nebe in a resulting report to Berlin, “only 96 Jews” had been executed in Grodno and Lida as commandos of EG-B came into the area: “Nebe announced that he had accordingly issued the order ‘to considerably intensify’ shootings in the area.” Kay feels it is likely that Filbert too must been on the receiving end of this chastisement as it was EK9 which had been in the Grodno area.

29 July 1941: Filbert’s instructions to EK9 leaders

In late July EK9 made its way to Vileyka and remained there for several days. According to the postwar testimony of Greiffenberger and Schneider, on 29 July Filbert told his officers that henceforth they were to include Jewish women and children in the murder actions. Greiffenberger testified that Filbert told his men that “he had received the order from a higher authority to shoot the Jewish women and children in the future.” Filbert put Schneider in charge of the first such action, to take place the next day. Greiffenberger testified that Heydrich himself has communicated this order or that it had been communicated at his behest.

Kay’s reconstruction has Filbert traveling to Berlin to meet with Heydrich the week of 23 June.

Greiffenberger and Schneider objected to the order, arguing that some of the commando members were parents of small children. As a result, on 30 July Filbert himself led the shooting operation in Vileyka: 350 Jews were shot including for the first time women. Greiffenberger led the next action, also in Vileyka, where at least 100 Jewish men and women and for the first time children were shot. Kay describes these two operations as the first of all the EGs murdering Jewish women and children “systematically” and thus representing “the transition to genocide against Soviet Jewry.” After this, Jewish women and children were routinely killed as part of EK9’s operations.

On 5 August 1941, EG-B commander Nebe reported (EM 43) on this escalation, informing Berlin that “the Security Police sweeps . . . have become comprehensive of late.”

12 August 1941 saw a further escalation. On this day Schneider led a sub-commando of EK9 in a search for partisans near Surazh. On turning up empty, Schneider brought his sub-commando to the town of Surazh, where, assisted by a German sapper unit stationed there, Schneider’s unit murdered as many as 500-600 Jewish men, women, and children (2/3 of the victims were women and children). Kay concludes that this action “may have been the first time that EK9 killed the entire Jewish population in a given locality.”

source: Kay, The Making of an SS Killer: The Life of Colonel Alfred Filbert, 1905-1990, pp 39-42, 46-50, 55, 57-62, 65, 71, 167-169
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:20 am

What of the accuracy of the data that went into the EMs?

Kay briefly reviews Einsatzgruppen reporting. (Headland has discussed the orders for these reports, their structure and contents, distribution, and the verification of the reports’ authenticity.) Kay explains that each commando of an EG had a Gestapo specialist, designated as Section IV, and a criminal police specialist, designated as Section V, or combined the two roles into an overall police specialist, one of whose responsibilities was “to keep a record of the killings and at regular intervals of perhaps a week to submit figures for those killed to the commander.” In the case of EK9, the police specialist was Gerhard Schneider, mentioned above. As did other commando leaders, Filbert, on receipt of reports from his police specialist, sent the data to EG-B headquarters. Commando reports were forwarded from EG headquarters to the RSHA office in Berlin, “where they formed the basis of the almost daily ‘Incident Reports USSR’ (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR, or EM). Reports from sub-commandos (Teilkommandos) reached the commando staff by courier or by radio, whilst teletype was additionally employed to send the more comprehensive reports of the commando staff itself on to Berlin.”

Kay explores the vexing question of the accuracy of the reporting by commandos and EGs. Postwar, on trial for their lives, EG defendants often gave testimony that rounding up and inflating victims totals was common – that totals were boosted before data went to the EG headquarters and boosted again when EG headquarters send the data to Berlin. The rationale for such testimony, from the defendants’ point of view, was to reduce their culpability by stressing superior orders and the desire of superiors for high body counts, on the one hand, and by minimizing actual death tolls, on the other. (Curiously, some deniers have tried minimizing Jewish deaths using a similar argument – forgetting that in so doing they are emphasizing the murder directives of the authorities.) As noted above, utilizing a variety of sources, Kay estimates that during Filbert’s 4-month command, EK9 murdered about 18,000 people, 99% of them Jews. Filbert’s submissions to EG-B, however, detail “only” 11,449 victims – about 6,500 fewer than Kay’s estimate. Thus, in Kay’s view, Filbert’s reports significantly underestimated the number of the EK’s victims. (At his trial, Filbert admitted to “‘only’ around 1,000 Jews during this period.”)

SS-Sturmbannführer Eduard Holste served as police specialist for EG-B and pulled the commando reports together and compiled the reports sent to Berlin. “I never doubted,” Holste would testify, “the accuracy of the figures reported to us. I also never heard that the numbers of those shot were randomly increased by commando chiefs. I personally never ventured an increase in the figures for the shootings and was also never instructed by Nebe or Neumann [Nebe’s successor as commander of EG-B] or anyone else to ‘touch up’ the figures reported by the commandos.” Holste’s predecessor, Ernst Ehlers, gave confirming testimony. Greiffenberger, Filbert’s deputy, also testified that “If Filbert had reported higher figures than Jews actually shot, I would basically learned of this. I never heard that Filbert prompted Schneider or any other official from Section IV to report incorrect shooting figures.” Similar testimony was given by Otto Bradfisch, commander of EK8, during the trial of Filbert and Schneider. The court in Filbert’s trial estimated from the evidence 15,000 victims, agreeing that the totals were not inflated.

source: Kay, The Making of an SS Killer: The Life of Colonel Alfred Filbert, 1905-1990, pp 44-45, 70-71, 183
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 08, 2016 7:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . Did the scope/nature of Einsatzgruppen actions escalate during summer 1941, and, if so, how?
Wendy Lower has an interesting paper in the Feldman & Seibel collection, the collection of papers on Nazi administration in persecution of the Jews which Balsamo and I mentioned in the Brayard thread. It speaks to 1) escalation of the killing by German units in the occupied USSR (specifically Ukraine) during summer and fall 1941, parallel to what was discussed above with regard to the Baltics, 2) the perspective on "women and children" expressed by Himmler at Posen and Sonthofen, and, most importantly for this thread, 3) the variety of sources by which we know about the anti-Jewish extermination actions in the occupied territories during 1941 and how they were carried out.

Initial killing actions in Ukraine

Lower describes the initial killing actions (first 5 weeks) in occupied Ukraine as a cooperative effort of Wehrmacht commanders (FKs and OKs as well as security units such as Secret Field Police), SS mobile killing units (SK-4a - Blobel - and SK-4b of EG-C and SK10a, SK10b, EK11, and EK12 of EG-D), Waffen-SS Brigades, and a number of order police battalions (9,45, 303, 304, 310, 314, 315, 320, 322), the forces of the HSSPF (Jeckeln). She notes as well the role of Göring's economic commandos in persecution strategies including withdrawal of food from Jews in occupied territory.

Early extermination actions, says Lower, targeted "adult male Jews in party and state positions and other so-called radical elements," in keeping with early German operational instructions, paraphrasing Heydrich's 2 July 1941 written Einsatzbefehl for HSSPFs and citing within the army Reichenau's "Guidelines for the Conduct of the Troops in Russia (10 October 1941). SD officers identified such males, separated them out, and shot them. During this early period, Lower also describes the encouragement of pogroms under Heydrich's instructions; she explains how Wehrmacht propaganda units worked toward this end and how "reprisal" pogroms, on the pretext of the identity of Jews and NKVD, were successfully brought about L'viv, Luts'k, and other cities.

First escalation: Jewish women and young Jews

According to Lower, "In mid July 1941, SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln authorized the killing of women during security operations planned for the area of Novohrad-Volvns'kyy (dated 25 July 1941). At the end of July, Seventh Army Commander von Stülpnagel defined the procedure for carrying out collective reprisal actions, specifying that Jews should be the target, even Jewish youths . . ." As in the case of pogroms instigated by the Germans, the actions here depended on the attributed equation of Jews to partisans, subversive elements; but Stülpnagel's guidelines went further and projected more widespread killing of Jews: "local commanders," writes Lower of the guidelines, "should not incarcerate hostages to have them on hand for future reprisal actions because 'there will be reason to kill them soon enough.'" At the same time, Jeckeln exempted his officers from seeking approval for such killing actions beforehand telling them that when time made pre-notification difficult, a post-action report would suffice. Lower also notes that Heydrich's 17 July order called for killing of all male Jews held prisoner, not just those initially targeted.

"Dramatic escalation" in August 1941

August would see a large number of very large-scale extermination actions in Ukraine - Vinnytsia, Zhytomyr, Berdychiv, Kamiianets'-Podol'skyi. As the operations grew in size, Wehrmacht leaders issued new orders regarding the conduct of extermination actions. These guidelines aimed to professionalize and routinize mass murder. Reichenau's 10 August order (Executionen durch den SD) stated that Wehrmacht troops were to comply with SD requests for assistance (e.g., as guards, to police curious locals); an order of Roques (entered in the KTB for Rear Army South, 1 September) clarified that officers and no one else had authority to order executions and, quoting Lower, "that the execution of Jews was to be carried out by forces of the HSSPF, not by individual solders." Lower's comment is that the expansion of killing brought about roles clarification and jurisdictional agreements.

Case studies from late summer and fall 1941

Lower provides some case studies of this dramatic escalation. One involves Paul Blobel, commander of SK-4a, and Dr Gerhart Panning, senior staff doctor with the Sixth Army. Blobel and Panning already knew each other well, as he and some of his officers had sought medical treatment from Panning's staff, including injections, for nervous conditions they'd developed in the east. Blobel's officers had decried bloody, poorly executed murder actions, as at Zhytomyr in early August, as "intolerable for both victim and firing-squad members." Panning thus found it convenient to work with Blobel on medical research he was conducting on the effect of dumdum bullets used by the Russians. Blobel voluntarily joined the research, using Jewish POWs as "guinea pigs." On this research, a German officer, James von Moltke, Abwehr international law specialist who later joined the Kreisau Circle, wrote a letter to his wife dated 12 September which described the research as "the height of bestiality and depravity."

Lower also discusses the notorious events at Bila Tserkva - in the latter part of August 1941. After the mass murder of the adult Jews of the town by a sub-team of Blobel's commando, led by August Häfner, assisted by Waffen-SS marksmen, the Jewish children were left, without parents or adults, locked in a building in the town. Eventually, as the crying and pleas of the abandoned children were heard by army units nearby, Lt Col Helmuth Groscurth, officer in Infantry Division 295, wrote a report that went to Reichenau. The question Groscurth raised was whether there was authorization for the extermination of the Jewish children. As a result, the local army field commander, Riedl, held a meeting with Blobel and Häfner, an Abwehr officer, and Groscurth. According to Lower, the men "branded the chaplains [from the complaining units] a couple of 'troublemakers.' Then Reidl asserted the Nazi ideological rationale for the execution of Jewish children. He urged that 'this brood must be stamped out' without any further 'unnecessary' delays. Blobel agreed." Lower comments that no written order was required for the murder of the Jewish children of Bila Tserkva to be authorized and carried out and that the people deciding on this included committed anti-Semites, like Blobel, as well as administrators of various sorts. She also explains that the incident shows that the army could intervene, even decisively, but was for the most part on board with the killing program. In this case, Reichenau would complain on 26 August about the massacre, stating that it was not "organized properly."

In later events, SK-4a would alter its approach - having Jewish mothers hold their children during execution actions so that both would be shot together and situations like the one at Bila Tserkva, where children were abandoned and became a delaying factor, could be avoided.

Lower's final case study is Babi Yar, which she describes as carefully planned and efficiently organized, utilizing the experience gained in the summer months and applying the lessons learned.

By the end of 1941, most Jewish communities in Ukraine, except for in western parts of Volhynia-Podolia (where 350,000 Jews survived), were gone and their residents murdered. A very significant part of the killing had occurred under the Wehrmacht military administration, before the Ostministerium established a civil authority for Ukraine in September 1941.

Soviet fabrication of the Eriegnismeldungen?

Monstrous's core claim in this thread is that the Soviet fabricated the Eriegnismeldungen, the reports of the Einsatzgruppen. But Lower has described smooth cooperation in the mass murder of Ukraine's Jews comprising military, police, and other authorities. Her sources for the paper from which I've summarized this material include propaganda artifacts from German military propaganda units, official instructions and guidelines of the German Sixth Army command, KTB (army war diary) entries, official Wehrmacht reports, instructions and reports of the HSSPF, Heydrich orders, reports from OK officers on relations with the SD, an eyewitness drawing by a Wehrmacht soldier, photographs taken by Wehrmacht propaganda unit photographers, courtroom testimony of EG and German military officers, a letter written by an Abwehr officer, the personnel record of Paul Blobel, survivor testimony, OK (local Wehrmacht commander) reports on anti-Jewish actions, a report of Orpo Battalion 314, and, oh yeah, just two Eriegnismeldungen (Einsatzgruppen reports for 7 October 1941 and 2 November 1941). Those claiming forgery of the EG reports have not even begun to try dealing with the robust quality of such evidence.

source: Lower, "The 'reiblungslose' Holocaust? The German Military and Civilian Implementation of the 'Final Solution' in Ukraine, 1941-1944," especially pp 237-245 and 253-255, in Feldman & Seibel, Networks of Nazi Persecution: Bureaucracy, Business and the Organization of the Holocaust (2005)
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 9:47 am

Monstrous is defamed yet again!

Monstrous has not claimed that everything was faked! Just a large part. Nor has Monstrous denied that the EG killed some Jews and others!

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 10:00 am

Where are the mass graves?

The Believers do not want to talk about that...

Why are there some alleged documents on mass killings but no detailed descriptions of where the bodies are buried....

Even if burning the bodies there would be massive ash remains that could be detected as well as evidence from the earth being disturbed by the digging. Yet no one has detected these sites...

Why?...
Last edited by Monstrous on Sun May 15, 2016 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 10:12 am

The non-smoking gun!!! Rosenberg's diary!!!

"Rosenberg led a special staff with the responsibility for collecting and safeguarding the art treasures of the occupied Eastern territories. By 1941, Rosenberg had taken on responsibility for setting up the civil administration of the occupied Russian and Baltic territories and served as Reichsminister für die besetzten Ostgebiete (Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories)."
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ullets.php

Obviously Rosenberg would have known about the EG. But:

"It is little surprise that the discovery of the diary of Rosenberg, which had been missing since the Nuremberg trials, excited staunch believers in the official Holocaust narrative. In fact, had the Holocaust occurred as generally understood and as relayed through many books, films, and museums, the Rosenberg Diary should have contained a wealth of horrifying discoveries. One might have even expected a philosophical defense of the policies that led to mass extermination. But the diary contains no such evidence. There is no justification of brutal policies; in fact, there is no mention of an order for extermination. There is no mention of gas chambers. There is no suggestion that Rosenberg was even aware of such policies."
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ullets.php

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 10:20 am

The non-smoking gun!!! x 2 Goebbels's diary!!!

http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... e_jews.php
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... jews_2.php

The diary contains some nasty statements on Jews being killed in the Soviet Union but Goebbels is a Holocaust denier!

One example, Mar 6, 1942:

"An SD [Sicherheitsdienst] report informed me about the situation in occupied Russia. It is, after all, more unstable than was generally assumed. The partisan danger is increasing week by week. The partisans are in command of large area in occupied Russian and are conducting a regime of terror there. The national movements, too, have become more insolent than was at first imagined. That applies as much to the Baltic States as to the Ukraine. Everywhere the Jews are busy inciting and stirring up trouble. It is therefore desirable that many of them must pay with their lives for this (mit ihrem Leben bezahlen müssen). Anyway, I am of the opinion that the greater the number of Jews liquidated (liquidiert), the more consolidated will be the situation in Europe after this war. One must have no mistaken sentimentality about it. The Jews are Europe's misfortune; they must somehow be removed (beseitigt), otherwise we are in danger of being removed (beseitigt) by them."

Followed by Mar 7, 1942

"I read a detailed report from the SD and police regarding a final solution of the Jewish Question. Any final solution involves a tremendous number of new viewpoints. The Jewish Question must be solved within a pan-European frame. There are 11 million Jews still in Europe. They will have to be concentrated later, to begin with, in the East; possibly an island, such as Madagascar, can be assigned to them after the war. In any case there can be no peace in Europe until the last Jews are shut off from (ausgeschaltet) the continent."

Goebbels confesses to many Jews being killed by the EG but denies that this is part of a genocide.

nickterry
Regular Poster
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:48 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by nickterry » Sun May 15, 2016 11:15 am

Monstrous wrote:Where are the mass graves?

The Believers do not want to talk about that...

Why are there some alleged documents on mass killings but no detailed descriptions of where the bodies are buried....

Even if burning the bodies there would be massive ash remains that could be detected as well as evidence from the earth being disturbed by the digging. Yet no one has detected these sites...

Why?...
Contrary to your delusion that nobody detected the grave sites, the Soviet Extraordinary Commission did exactly that from 1943 to 1945, the Polish Main Commission and similar bodies did so west of the Soviet border. Some examples can be seen here from photographs:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... odies.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

A great many mass graves were NOT reopened by Sonderkommando 1005, not just in regions liberated in early 1943 before 1005 began working, but further west in smaller towns and shtetls. Drobitskii Yar, outside Kharkov, is one example; the opened grave was even filmed:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... i-yar.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hotos.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... otage.html


If you believe that grave sites were not located, how come memorials were sited on many of them - at Rumbula, Ponary, Babi Yar? At places most people have never heard of, like Bronna Gora/Bronnaia Gora? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronna_G%C3%B3ra

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 11:26 am

nickterry wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Where are the mass graves?

The Believers do not want to talk about that...

Why are there some alleged documents on mass killings but no detailed descriptions of where the bodies are buried....

Even if burning the bodies there would be massive ash remains that could be detected as well as evidence from the earth being disturbed by the digging. Yet no one has detected these sites...

Why?...
Contrary to your delusion that nobody detected the grave sites, the Soviet Extraordinary Commission did exactly that from 1943 to 1945, the Polish Main Commission and similar bodies did so west of the Soviet border. Some examples can be seen here from photographs:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... odies.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -nazi.html

A great many mass graves were NOT reopened by Sonderkommando 1005, not just in regions liberated in early 1943 before 1005 began working, but further west in smaller towns and shtetls. Drobitskii Yar, outside Kharkov, is one example; the opened grave was even filmed:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... i-yar.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hotos.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... otage.html


If you believe that grave sites were not located, how come memorials were sited on many of them - at Rumbula, Ponary, Babi Yar? At places most people have never heard of, like Bronna Gora/Bronnaia Gora? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronna_G%C3%B3ra
Yes, the Soviets claimed to have found some mass graves. Not surprising in a war killing tens of millions on the Eastern Front and in a region where the Soviet themselves had killed tens of millions. But even the Soviet admitted that these mass graves were by far too small to be compatible with the EG clams.

Regarding Babi Yar and so on, the Soviets were careful to not do any real forensic investigations there, completely contrary to what would be expected if there was something of propaganda value to show!

Or maybe they did do one, but the results were not good propaganda!

That is why they invented the 1005 hoax! If they had had some very large mass graves to show, then there would be no need for the hoax!

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 15, 2016 11:30 am

Monstrous wrote:Monstrous is defamed yet again!

Monstrous has not claimed that everything was faked! Just a large part. Nor has Monstrous denied that the EG killed some Jews and others!
Monstrous tries to wriggle out of the jam he's made for himself. Fun to watch.

A reminder, here's how Monstrous kicked the thread off: "The EG reports, the summaries, and the circulation list were likely all forged."
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 11:34 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous is defamed yet again!

Monstrous has not claimed that everything was faked! Just a large part. Nor has Monstrous denied that the EG killed some Jews and others!
Monstrous tries to wriggle out of the jam he's made for himself. Fun to watch.

A reminder, here's how Monstrous kicked the thread off: "The EG reports, the summaries, and the circulation list were likely all forged."
That was an initial hyperbolic statement made for its dramatic effect and shock value. "Poetic licence". To quote Vrba.

Monstrous has since long clarified that some of the documents may well be real and reflect some real killings.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 15, 2016 11:43 am

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous is defamed yet again!

Monstrous has not claimed that everything was faked! Just a large part. Nor has Monstrous denied that the EG killed some Jews and others!
Monstrous tries to wriggle out of the jam he's made for himself. Fun to watch.

A reminder, here's how Monstrous kicked the thread off: "The EG reports, the summaries, and the circulation list were likely all forged."
That was an initial hyperbolic statement made for its dramatic effect and shock value. "Poetic licence". To quote Vrba.
So then please state what you claim. Clearly. Without hyperbole.
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has since long clarified that some of the documents may well be real and reflect some real killings.
Please tell us where the summaries I've posted about Filbert and other evidence are mistaken. Cite evidence to show how. Respond, with evidence, to this post and others (CSDIC tapes) showing that Jews were targeted as Jews by the killing squads. No sweeping and unsupported statements - reply to what's been posted and explained.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24026
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun May 15, 2016 11:50 am

Monstrous wrote:. . . Regarding Babi Yar and so on, the Soviets were careful to not do any real forensic investigations there . . . That is why they invented the 1005 hoax! If they had had some very large mass graves to show, then there would be no need for the hoax!
Explain the contemporaneous German documents, and corroborating evidence about 1005, cited in this thread and by Sergey Romanov referring to SK 1005.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 11:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous is defamed yet again!

Monstrous has not claimed that everything was faked! Just a large part. Nor has Monstrous denied that the EG killed some Jews and others!
Monstrous tries to wriggle out of the jam he's made for himself. Fun to watch.

A reminder, here's how Monstrous kicked the thread off: "The EG reports, the summaries, and the circulation list were likely all forged."
That was an initial hyperbolic statement made for its dramatic effect and shock value. "Poetic licence". To quote Vrba.
So then please state what you claim. Clearly. Without hyperbole.
Monstrous wrote:Monstrous has since long clarified that some of the documents may well be real and reflect some real killings.
Please tell us where the summaries I've posted about Filbert and other evidence are mistaken. Cite evidence to show how. Respond, with evidence, to this post and others (CSDIC tapes) showing that Jews were targeted as Jews by the killing squads. No sweeping and unsupported statements - reply to what's been posted and explained.
Much of this may well be true. The Soviets actually need only to have make some minor adjustments to original documents to create a very different and false picture. Add some zeros to numbers, add a few words regarding orders, and so on.

Oh, and yes, to this add some "confessors" willing to rubber stamp anything in attempts to save themselves and their relative from deaths and torture and "some" witnesses who for a large number of reasons may have lied about or misunderstood what happened.

User avatar
Monstrous
Regular Poster
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:05 pm

Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Sun May 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . Regarding Babi Yar and so on, the Soviets were careful to not do any real forensic investigations there . . . That is why they invented the 1005 hoax! If they had had some very large mass graves to show, then there would be no need for the hoax!
Explain the contemporaneous German documents, and corroborating evidence about 1005, cited in this thread and by Sergey Romanov referring to SK 1005.
As already stated, some documents are likely real, some are likely based on real documents but with minor adjustments such as adding zeros to numbers and adding a few words to statements on orders, and so on. The witnesses and confessors are completely unreliable for a large number of reasons.

Other documents, such as the diaries of Rosenberg and Goebbels, do not support genocidal killings.

The hard evidence, the corpses and the large mass graves from killing millions, is missing...