Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:27 am

Monstrous wrote:Mark Weber quotes from the EG reports and shames the Believers:

"I also quoted from several Einsatzgruppen reports to show that there was no extermination policy. For example, the reports of July 24, 1941, and August 5, 1941, refer to the establishment of Jewish health centers in the newly-created Jewish ghettos to prevent the outbreak of diseases.
Confusion of a part for the whole (both in terms of geography and time): the extermination of the Jews in the occupied East didn’t occur all at once and everywhere at the same time, of course. To the point of Weber's dishonest effort, a part of the “solution” was to establish working ghettos in which Jews would labor in workshops, on construction projects, or in other enterprises of value to the German occupiers.

But let’s see what report no. 32, dated 24 July 1941, says about Minsk, presumably the subject of Weber’s genius “find.” The report explains that “In Minsk the entire Jewish intelligentsia has been liquidated (teachers, professors, lawyers, etc., except medical personnel). A Jewish Ordnungspolizei has been established. It is to maintain order in the new Jewish quarter. The Jewish police is at the disposal of the Jewish Council. It has to help carry out the orders issued by the German authorities and the municipality of Minsk. A Jewish health service, which is subordinated to the city health department, has been set up in order to prevent epidemics in the Jewish quarter.” All this is typical of Nazi ghetto formation, right down to the Germans’ creation of conditions in which epidemics were to be expected - and Germans’ fear of the spread of those very epidemics for which they were responsible.

Liquidation actions, including murders of western Jews who began arriving in November 1941, were frequent in the ghetto - it was not intended to endure. A murder site was established outside the city itself, at Maly Trostinets. Here and here are more information on what ghettoization and the subsequent actions against Jews in the Minsk ghettos entailed. The USHMM encyclopedia entry and Barbara Epstein’s book are better sources for Minsk.

And what about Weber’s 5 August 1941 gem? In report no. 43, there are general comments on measures taken where ghettos were set up in Belorussia; these comments mirror the report on Minsk - adding the details that Jews in the ghettos were marked “with special badges” and “labor units were formed.” The report also lists 29 cities in Lithuania and Belorussia in which Party officials, members of the NKVD, “active Jewish intelligentsia” and others “were rendered harmless” and their assets confiscated. While the major killing actions in Belorussia extended into 1942, the vast majority of the Jews in Lithuania were murdered in 1941, as reported by Jäger and Stahlecker. Working ghettos were established, too, in Lithuania despite the high number of murder victims, again as detailed by Jäger and Stahlecker. Weber’s fixation on these two references is especially ironic in that in early October 1941 in the so-called small ghetto action in Kaunas the Germans burnt down the existing Jewish hospital, with patients and medical personnel trapped inside, as described in this excellent series on the Jäger report as well as on pp 125ff in The Clandestine History of the Kovno Ghetto Jewish Police.
Monstrous wrote:I quoted from the report of September 12, 1941 (No. 81, p. 14), which clearly suggests that the "solution of the Jewish question" was simply to get the Jews out of Europe, not to kill them. It also shows that these security units were glad when they did not have to deal with the large numbers of Jews who fled to the eastern areas still under Soviet control:

During the first weeks [of the military campaign] considerable numbers of Jews fell under our control, whereas in the central and eastern Ukrainian districts it has been observed that in many cases 70 to 90 percent, and sometimes 100 percent, of the Jewish population has fled. This can be seen as an indirect result of the work of the Security Police [Einsatzgruppen], since the removal [Abschiebung] at no cost of hundreds of thousands of Jews -- most of them reportedly to beyond the Urals -- represents a considerable contribution to the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.
And yet the same report includes this statement: “Executions of Jews are understood everywhere and accepted favorably.”

Arad, in The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, has estimated the numbers of Jews, by region, fleeing to unoccupied areas. I don’t have Arad handy but will post some notes on this later. Suffice to say for now, report no. 81 was “optimistic” on this score - or, more accurately, cannot be used to generalize for all of the occupied Soviet Union. Of course, the evacuation/escape %'s are only part of the story - what needs to be understood as well is the number of Jews remaining in the German-held areas.
Monstrous wrote:Numerous Jewish sources also confirm that the great majority of Jews were evacuated or fled from the Soviet territories before they were occupied by the Germans.
Name them. Support them with recent work on Jewish flight from the region and data on the remaining Jewish population.
Monstrous wrote:The Einsatzgruppen report of August 25, 1941 (No. 63, pp. 6-7) also explains what was meant by "solution of the Jewish question":

Slowly but surely, one of the most important problems, the solution of the Jewish question [emphasis in original], is being tackled. In Kishinev [the capital of Bessarabia, a Rumanian-speaking province], there were approximately 60 -- 80 thousand Jews before the war. Most of them were deported with the withdrawal of the Russians. When the city was captured, there were only about 4,000 Jews present, but that number has since increased. Upon the initiative of the Einsatzkomando the Rumanian city commander established a Jewish ghetto in the old city which currently contains about 9,000 Jews. The Jews are being organized into work groups and assigned to various German and Rumanian units for clean-up work and other kinds of labor."
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p389_Weber.html
Inane. In one city in Bessarabia a large number of the Jews living there before the German occupation managed to flee, some returned, a ghetto was set up - as with the population flight data, I will take a look at some sources I have later to see how well report no. 63 describes the actions taken by Ohlendorf's men. In this thread we’ve cited the Jäger report, the Stahlecker report, EG reports, and other sources explaining the policy of executing Jews en masse to render territory free of Jews. To underscore the obvious, the mass murder wasn’t all carried out at once, and as areas were swept some Jews were held out for labor, with many regional and local differences, in pace, ghettoization, etc. Again, here we see an intentional confusion of a part for the whole.

Pretty sad performance by Weber, as is typical (no wonder he gave it up), and, as in the Posen thread, the only shame is yours for falling for BS.

all quotations from EG reports from Arad, Krakowski, Spector, The Einsatzgruppen Reports
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:59 am

The report cited by statmech clearly states that the vast majority of the Soviet Jews remained behind.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:15 am

Monstrous wrote:Numerous Jewish sources also confirm that the great majority of Jews were evacuated or fled from the Soviet territories before they were occupied by the Germans.
Arad's estimate is that out of 4.3 million Jews in the occupied territories on the eve of Barbarossa, 2.6-2.7 million Jews were trapped by the Germans (61%) - thus, about 1.7 million Jews being evacuated or escaping (or joining the army). The numbers of Jews escaping varied greatly by region, with less than 25% fleeing the northern and western areas successfully and up to 50% fleeing parts of eastern Ukraine (Arad quotes from EG report no. 63 to note that the Germans observed the planned, successful and exceptionally high % of evacuees from parts of Ukraine). Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, p 87

Weber's lame attempt to insinuate that the "Jewish problem" solved itself by flight and evacuation intentionally overlooks these 2.7 million Jews, who, after all, form the subject of this entire discussion. It is a strawman to imply that anyone presumed 4-5 million Jews remained under German occupation. (Yad Vashem, for example, uses a generic 2 million estimate, IIRC Dawidowicz is in the 2+ million ballpark.)
Monstrous wrote:The Einsatzgruppen report of August 25, 1941 (No. 63, pp. 6-7) also explains what was meant by "solution of the Jewish question":

Slowly but surely, one of the most important problems, the solution of the Jewish question [emphasis in original], is being tackled. In Kishinev [the capital of Bessarabia, a Rumanian-speaking province], there were approximately 60 -- 80 thousand Jews before the war. Most of them were deported with the withdrawal of the Russians. When the city was captured, there were only about 4,000 Jews present, but that number has since increased. Upon the initiative of the Einsatzkomando the Rumanian city commander established a Jewish ghetto in the old city which currently contains about 9,000 Jews. The Jews are being organized into work groups and assigned to various German and Rumanian units for clean-up work and other kinds of labor."
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v09/v09p389_Weber.html
Arad disputes the data put together in report no. 63; according to him, using other sources, about half the prewar Jewish population of 60,000 had fled Kishinev as the Germans approached. About 10,000 of the fleeing Jews were murdered by Romanian forces allied with the Germans. Furthermore, Romanian forces were the first to enter the city of Kishinev; Romanian troops began slaughtering Jews who remained. It was not until SK11a came to Kishinev that the murders became focused and systematic - now targeting, as in other areas, "Jewish leaders and members of the intelligentsia." Arad's estimate is another 10,000 Jews perished in these actions after Kishinev was first occupied. On 24-25 July the Kishinev ghetto was established - with about 11,000 Jews who remained crowded around the marketplace. (According to Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania, p 139, between 9,984 and 10,578 - and by late September 11,380 - mortality was extremely high in the ghetto.) A shooting action, conducted by Romanian soldiers on 1 August, claimed 550 victims (per Ioanid, 400+, with German perpetrators). In October, the ghetto was liquidated and remaining Jews, except for 118 per Ioanid, sent to Transnistria.

The deportations of the Kishinev Jews to Transnistria were part of a general expulsion of Jews from Bessarabia and Bukovina. Over half the Jews of Bessarabia and Bukovina were murdered before the deportations to the Transnistria began. The first convoy to leave Kishinev number 1,600 Jews; these Jews were "massacred in the vicinity of the Dnestr." Not until the end of October was the liquidation of Kishinev ghetto completed. Here and here are links telling some of the fate of Jews sent to the Transnistria; Hilberg's coverage of the Transnistria is recommended. The conditions of the deportations, and high mortality, are described in Ioanid, pp 147-155. On p 174 Ioanid writes, "My own best estimate is that at least 125,000 Jews, possibly 145,000, reached Transnistria alive. Reliable Romanian wartime statistics indicate that of these, only fifty thousand would survive to the end of 1943."

Although the choice of Kishinev, with the Romanian angle and the Romanian killing ground in Transnistria, to epitomize the work of the Einsatzgruppen is poor, Weber is right that the fate of the Kishinev Jews provides clues to the aims and achievements of the mobile-killing squads. In this case, the Jews were jammed into a short-lived ghetto, subjected to lethal conditions and massacres, and then deported by the Romanians, on Antonescu's order, to their destruction in Transistria. The history of the Kishinev Jews does not end with the establishment of a ghetto for a few 1000 in July 1941; rather, it continues on, with a number of killing actions and deportation to a death zone in Transnistria that fall.

Arad, pp 77, 230-234
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Xcalibur » Sun Sep 20, 2015 5:36 am

Which "numerous Jewish sources"? Name them, VBG, and don't rely on SM , or anyone else.... what does your personal research into this tell you?

Point is "sources"..

Do it.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:26 am

Xcalibur wrote:Which "numerous Jewish sources"? Name them, VBG, and don't rely on SM , or anyone else.... what does your personal research into this tell you?

Point is "sources"..

Do it.
All that this particular chimp seems capable of at this point is spamming the forum with deceptive, somewhat off focus, set-pieces from Weber, Il Re di Convoluzione, and other more "senior" chimps.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:27 pm

re the Bessaraban bubble: If the area in question was under the jurisdiction of the Romanians, then it is understandable that different practices were used.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:21 pm

Romania received back Bessarabia and northern Bukovina after 22 June 1941 - and in August IIRC what was called "Transnistria" was granted to Romania - for sure that Romania administered these territories influenced developments in them. I fear, however, this is all over the chimp's head. I wonder if he understands that Romania was country and that it was a German ally. But, be that as it may, the pace of the killings, ghettoization, the EG "sweeps," labor/production, etc differed among the regions occupied by the Germans - and even within regions. E.g., case in point, in Lithuania, the Jews were virtually completely removed from the countryside - but three ghettos were established (Vilnius, Kaunas, Siauliai) - no one in his right mind would argue that, because about 40,000 Jews were concentrated in these three places, their Jewish populations had not been dramatically decreased by shootings and that there hadn't been massacres to "free" the rest of Lithuania of Jews. Been-there used to plagiarize from Weber and 100% of the time within a few posts he was shredded. It is almost incomprehensible that this chimp keeps going to Weber. I guess chimps don't learn.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:24 pm

He still has not addressed the testimonies of EG deserters to Swiss Military Intelligence either.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:58 am

This post and the 2 that follow are relevant to the Einsatzgruppen discussion.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:02 am

Here are ten confirming sources on open-air shootings of Jews by Einsatzgruppen and other German police and military units:

1) General Rowecki, Polish Home Army (ZWZ-AK) commander from June 1940 to June 1943, reported on 29 September 1941 in “Sprawy żydowskie” that “The Germans are murdering Jews en mass[e]. In the hills of Ponary, 400 to 500 Jews are being shot daily.” (Joshua Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 99) Rowecki supplemented this news with a report of 15 December 1941 stating that the Jews were “being killed off in Lithuania.” (Zimmerman, p 111) Rowecki further reported on the situation in Vilnius in March 1942, writing that “The situation of the Jews continues to deteriorate,” citing the reduction of the city’s Jewish population from 80,000 to 20,000 by the end of 1941. (Zimmerman, p 136) Also, reports of the Delegatura, e.g., on 8 April 1942, described the murders of Jews in the Vilnius area. (Zimmerman, p 136)
* See the Jäger report entries for 8 August - 1 September 1941 (total 444 victims), then 2 September (3,700), 12 September (3,434), 17 September (1,271) (concerned with EK-3, a part of EG-A, the Jäger report does not cover shootings by EK-9, a unit of EG-B, operating in the Vilna area up to early August), see also EG report for 13 July 1941 (“OSR 21”) reporting liquidation of 321 Jews on 8 July 1941 and stating that “about 500 Jews, saboteurs among them, are liquidated daily” (Arad et al, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 22) ; Kazimierz Sakowicz, Ponary Diary 1941-1943, pp 11-30 for a Polish journalist-witness’s account of the daily shootings at Ponar during this period; a report of the German 403rd Security Division in June 1941 gave the population of Vilnius as 80,000 (a figure used in many other contemporary sources).

2) Annex o Terrorze, a publication of the Polish ZWZ-AK’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda (BIP), wrote in its 16-30 September 1941 issue that “the German army has unleashed a monstrous reign of terror on the Jews . . . with a sizable participation of the local people” including in “Bialystok (burning several hundred Jews alive in the synagogue, the slaughter of Jews by the German army in Wizna . . . )” (Zimmerman, p 100) Biuletyn Informacyjny, the main newspaper of the Polish underground, would report this action on 30 April 1942. (Zimmerman, p 142)
* The synagogue Aktion was the work of Police Battalion 309, not of an Einsatzgruppe. See Sara Berger, The Jews of Bialystok, pp 90-93, estimating the number of victims at 800; also USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, vol 2, part A, p 866 (also gives 8000 figure, entry by Bender); EK-8 was active in the Bialystok area according to EG reports; see below for note on the Wizna action referred to

3) About six weeks later, a subsequent edition Aneks o Terrorze (16 October - 15 November 1941) reported further on anti-Jewish actions in the Bialystok region, commenting on pogroms as well as distinctly German operations: “from October executions of Jews are being carried out in the Bialystok region without regard to age and sex.” The report mentioned specifically that in Lomza “some 1800 Jews were murdered on September 1st; in the town of Rutki, 640.” (Zimmerman, p 111)
* The Lomza action is described in USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 918 (where the action is dated 1 September or 17 September 1941) and here: http://kehilalinks.jewishgen.org/Lomza/; the action was carried out, according to the USHMM Encyclopedia, by “an SS unit from Ostrołeka); the actions at this time involved towns near Lomza, including Rutki, Wizna, Stawiska, and the infamous Jedwabne (USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 918; the Rutki massacre of about 450 Jews by SS took place on 6 September according to USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 984)

4) An intelligence report of the ZWZ-AK’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda, made in fall 1941, stated that German massacres in Rowne and Łuck had killed 22,000 Jews, that in Łuck the Germans had requisitioned 1.2 million złoty and large amounts of gold and silver from the Jews, and that on 6-7 November about 12,000 Jews had been shot in Łuck. (Zimmerman, p 116) In addition, a Polish underground report from the Lwów area, dated 15 December 1941, referenced the shooting of 17,000 Jews in Rowne. (Zimmerman, p 116)
* See EG report no. 143, dated 8 December 1941 - “On November 6 and 7, 1941, an action against Jews that had been prepared for some time was carried out in Rovno, where about 15,000 Jews were shot” (Arad et al, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 252); the massacre of Jews in Rowne (Rovno) is described by Jeffrey Burds, Holocaust in Rovno: The Massacre in Sosenki Forest November 1941; see also USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1459-1461; the operation was ordered by HSSPF Korseman and involved Police Battalions 315 and 320, EK-5 (from EG-C), and the 33rd Police Reserve Battalion (EG report no. 143: “According to the orders of Higher SS and Police Chiefs, the organization of this action was in the hands of the German Order Police. Aussenkommando Rovno of Einsatzkommando 5 participated substantially in carrying out this Aktion.”)

5) Polish major Marian Wlodarkiewicz reported from Vilnius on 16 December 1941: “It should . . . be known that in Vilna, Baranowicze, Lida, Grodno and even in Riga and Tallinn, in the towns and cities and villages, is occurring the bestial administration of mass murder of Jews with excessive zeal . . . with the innate cruelty of the Gestapo and their Lithuanian helpers. . . . Today, in all the cities of prewar Lithuania and in the Vilna province, a campaign has been launched to slaughter the whole of Jewry.” As of 1 October 1941, Wlodarkiewicz estimated, 30,000 Jews had been murdered at Ponar, outside Vilnius. (Zimmerman, p 117)
* The estimate of the Polish underground for Jewish deaths at Ponar in early fall 1941 was about double the number of deaths that can be tallied from EG reports and the Jäger report - prior to Jäger’s arrival, at least about 5,000 Jews were murdered by the Germans and their Lithuanian auxiliaries at Ponar; according to Jäger, during August and September about 8,745 Jews were murdered at the site - or a total of just under 14,000 victims. Another 2,300 Jews were murdered as well on 1 October itself in the “Yom Kippur Action.” See Jäger report; Arad, Ghetto in Flames, p 210
* According to the USHMM Encyclopedia (vol 2, part B, pp 1166-1168), Jews from towns in which the Germans had carried out murder actions arrived in Baranowicze during fall 1941. During fall 1941, EKs 7b and 8 were active in Baranowicze, carrying out relatively small killing actions (e.g., 60 communists reported in EG report no. 25, 19 July 1941; 301 “Jewish activists, officials, and looters” as stated in EG report no. 32, 24 July 1941 - and confiscation of 25,000 rubles in cash; “an action against 157 Jews” - carried out in collaboration with the German army and GFP and field gendarmerie - mentioned in EG report no. 43, 5 August 1941; as well as other executions in the town).
* Einsatzgruppe B’s report of 13 July 1941 (no. 21) said that “Only 96 Jews were executed in Grodno and Lida during the first days. I have orders to intensify there activities.” On 5 August 1943 (EG report no. 43), EG-B noted unquantified “executive police measures” in Lida, among other cities and towns, targeting “active Jewish intelligentsia” as well as communist party officials, NKVD agents, criminals and looters, and others, who “were rendered harmless” and whose assets were confiscated. Events in Lida are dealt with in USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1225-1226 - the murders in Lida started with the killing of 92 educated Jews who were shot outside town on 5 July by EK-9.
* The USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part A, p 891, describes murders by EG-B in Grodno during fall 1941; as noted above, a small number of Jews “were executed” in Grodno according to EG report no. 21 (13 July 1941); EG report no. 43, quoted above, mentioned “executive measures” in Grodno along with those in Lida.
* A major murder action in Riga was carried out two weeks before Wlodarkiewicz’s report - according to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1020-1021, over 11,000 Jews were murdered in Rumbula forest by Order Police units under the command of HSSPF Jeckeln (1,000 of the victims had arrived on a transport from Berlin); a second murder action in Riga was carried out, killing about 14,000 Jews, on 8 December - with EK-2 under Rudolf Lange supporting the HSSPF’s units. The 30 November 1941 Riga murders were described in EG report no. 151, dated 5 January 1942, giving an estimate of 4,000 Latvian and German victims of the “shooting action.”
“ The elimination of Jews from Estonia - 2,000 Jews living in Talllinn when the Germans occupied the country - was described in Reports from the Occupied Eastern Territories, no. 6, 5 July 1942, as “Jews were gradually apprehended by the Security Police” until “there are no more Jews in Estonia.” (Arad, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 347)

6) Biuletyn Informacyjny carried an article in its number for 15 January 1942, describing how the “Jewish population has disappeared from the majority of cities and towns” in eastern areas. “For example, in Borysov, Mołodeczno, and Mogilev - not a single Jew left.” (Zimmerman, pp 130-131) The Mołodeczno action was further discussed in a report made by Rowecki on 29 April 1942. (Zimmerman, p 138) An early note on Mołodeczno had traveled by courier from the Vilnius area to Polish Home Army headquarters in Warsaw in December 1941, like Rowecki’s report stating that only a single Jewish doctor had survived the massacre there. (Zimmerman, p 116)
* Liquidation actions in Borisov were described in EG reports nos. 43 (size of action unstated), 73 (118 persons), 92 (“176 more Jews”), 108 (“After these mopping-up operations, there were no more Jews left north, south, and west of Borisov. In Borisov itself, a further 118 Jews were liquidated. . . “), 124 (83 persons among them “seditious Jews”), and 148 (146 Jews shot). According to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1652, the major killing operation in Borisov occurred on 20-21 October 1941, when SS units working with local police and Latvian auxiliaries murdered 7,245 Jews.
* In Mołodeczno, SK-7a carried out shooting two actions in July 194; a third action, against male Jews in Mołodeczno, was conducted by Wehrmacht troops in late October 1941, after which those Jews remaining in the town were confined in a small ghetto. USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1243.
* Citing Tätigkeits- und Lagebericht no. 3 (15-31 August 1941), the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1704, describes the first shooting action against Jews in Mogilev, when 80 Jews considered capable of leadership were executed by EK-8 under Otto Bradfisch. (These executions are also referenced in EG report no. 108, 9 October 1941.) The encyclopedia further explains that formation of the Mogilev ghetto (covered in EG report no. 125) in mid-August was accompanied by shooting of Jews. Mass killing actions, aimed at liquidating the ghetto on Dubrovenka River, occurred in October 1941 - EK-8 was joined by Police Battalions 316 and 322 as well as a Ukrainian Schutzmannschaft battalion and police; over 5,000 Jews were killed in the two October actions. Gas vans were used at this time. EG report no. 133 (14 November 1941) explained the operation this way: “On October 19, 1941, a large-scale operation against the Jews was carried out in Mogilev with the aid of the Police Regiment ‘Center.’ 3,726 Jews of both sexes and all ages were liquidated by this action. . . . On October 23, 1941, to prevent further acts of sabotage and to combat partisans, a further number of Jews from Mogilev and the surrounding area, 239 of both sexes, were liquidated.” (Arad, The Einsatzgruppen Reports, pp 234-235)

7) On 23 March 1942, Woliński reported on an action, utilizing both Lithuanian auxiliaries and Polish militiamen, which had taken place during November 1941 in Slonim (Zimmerman, p 135)
* According to the USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, p 1275, a major action occurred in Slonim in mid-November 1941, conducted by the German Security Police, Wehrmacht, Latvian and Lithuania auxiliaries, and Belorussian police, in collaboration with the German Gebeitskommissar, Erren. Erren reported on the action in January 1942, saying that it removed 8,000 “unnecessary hungry mouths.” About 7,000 Jews were kept alive to work for the Germans and, according to Erren, “they work willingly owing to their constant fear of death, and in the spring they will be most carefully vetted and selected for a further reduction.” See also Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, pp 150-151.

8) A report of the Polish underground’s Bureau of Information and Propaganda made in April 1942 included details that murders in the East carried out by the Germans continued to involve machine guns but now included poison: the Jews were said to be eliminated by Kaunas, the dramatic reduction of the Jewish population in Vilnius was reiterated, and a summary of the situation of Jews in Lwów was provided. Other communities in which anti-Jewish actions were described included Izbica, Mielec, Rawa Ruska, Kock, and Ryki. (Zimmerman, p 137) On 10 December 1942, the Polish Minister for Foreign Affairs addressed the United Nations and described the mass extermination of Jews by the Germans in Poland. He reinforced that the two principal means of mass murder were shooting and gassing: “At first, the executions were carried out by shooting. Subsequently, however, it is reported that the Germans applied new methods, such as poison gas, by means of which the Jewish population was exterminated. . . .” (Zimmerman, p 181)
* Jäger,’s report, which covered the period through 1 December 1941, gave the Jewish population for Vllnius as follows: “Wilna approximately 15,000 Jews”; since about 5,000 Jews were in hiding and living “illegally” in Vilnius ghetto following the wave of murder actions carried out in summer and fall 1941, it would appear that the approximately 60,000 Jews had been murdered at Ponar during 1941.
* Kaunas: In Jäger’s report we read, “Kauen approximately 15,000 Jews.” This was a reduction of 25,000 from the pre-Barbarossa population of the city. It was not until summer that the working Jews who had remained in Kaunas were removed from the work camp there, those who survived the clearance operation mostly taken to Stutthof and Dachau.

9) The intelligence/counter-intelligence department of the Home Army reported on 1 July 1942 that the Germans had carried out executions in the Braslaw ghetto and had murdered 3,000 Jews in the surrounding area. (Zimmerman, p 149)
* USHMM Encyclopedia, vol 2, part B, pp 1170-1171: German Security Police and gendarmes and local policemen carried out an operation against the Jews in Braslaw ghetto in early June 1942; young Jews had organized and put up resistance; still, about 2,000 Jews were rounded up and shot in ditches outside the town; after two days the Germans halted the shootings and let it be known that Jews in hiding would be amnestied on turning themselves in - a few days later, after a number of Jews had come forward, the shootings resumed. According to a report made by Wilhelm Kube, Generalkommissar for Weissruthenien, on 1 July 1942 “No special problems were encountered on June 3, 1942, when the ghetto in the county town of Braslav, in the northwest of the region, was liquidated along with its 2,000 Jews.” (quoted in Arad, The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, p 253)

10) Oh, it should also be noted that the Polish underground was not uniformed as to the work of Sonderkommando 1005 in destroying the evidence of the crimes of the Germans in the east: on 4 November 1943 Biuletyn Informacyjny reported that what it described as “liquidation actions” concerning the mass graves of the Jews, where Germans were said to be burning the bodies of victims to conceal the murders. (Zimmerman, p 364)

With these contemporaneous items in mind, we can ask, did the unknown, unnamed, undescribed Soviet forgers also manipulate the various reports of the Polish underground corroborating the extermination of the Jews in the occupied East, chiefly in mass shootings during 1941 and early 1942?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:05 pm

His discussion of Hitler "prophecies" IIRC is the best . . . and most intriguing . . . glad you found the book useful.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:44 am

Germans, too, were learning of the mass extermination campaigns in the east. For example, Dr August Töpperwein was a devout Protestant teacher from Solingen, a small city about 60km north of Bonn, who kept a diary during WWII. In May 1942 he was in charge of a POW camp in Belorussia. Late that spring Töpperwein would write about a mass shooting of Jews in the area by German units:
In our village 300 Jews were shot. Both sexes, every age group. The people had to take off their outer clothing (clearly so that they could be distributed amongst the remaining inhabitants of the village) and they were killed with pistol shots. Mass graves at the local Jewish cemetery.
Töpperwein recorded thus that the Jewish shooting victims included children, as Himmler was to explain at Posen, as well as the looting of the victims' last possessions. He wrote that these victims were buried in the cemetery but in mass, not individual, graves. Over a year later, in November 1943, Töpperwein tried to assimilate and understand what he'd witnessed in Belorussia and learned of during his later posting to Ukraine along with reports he'd gotten of the executions elsewhere in the occupied east:
We are not just destroying the Jews fighting against us, we literally want to exterminate this people as such!

By this time, Töpperwein wrote, he'd
heard dreadful, apparently accurate details about how we have exterminated the Jews (from infants to the aged) in Lithuania!
By this time Töpperwein had concluded that the "cover story" of the fight against Jewish partisans was without foundation and that the goals of the mass shootings were broader, "to exterminate this people as such," down to infants. (Nicholas Stargardt, The German War: A Nation under Arms, 1939-1945, p 259)

As knowledge of the extermination of the Jews spread amongst Germans, two common themes, expressed in letters and diaries, were to emerge: a) fear of Allied retribution against Germany for what had been done to the Jews and b) the idea of "burned bridges" - e.g., Walter Dürkefalden wrote to his brother (he'd informed his brother about mass executions of Jews in the east he'd witnessed as well as that he'd about gassing of French Jews) in 1942 that
Certainly it has gone so far that they will do to us as we have done to them, if we should lose the war.
(p 247)

I do not believe that it is likely, as Monstrous wants us to believe of the written "traces" of the open-air shootings, that such diary and correspondence details, based on both personal, direct observation and what Germans were saying to one another about what was happening in the east, were rooted in Soviet fabrications. The sources were contemporary - both eyewitness accounts and information passed on by Germans. Nor do I know of evidence for Töpperwein's diary being forged or manipulated by the Soviets.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Töpperwein may well have believed that an extermination was taking place but that is not proof that it in fact occurred.

The existence of mass shootings does not prove a genocide anymore than Allied bombings of German civilians prove a genocide.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:13 pm

You miss the point, bozo. I didn't quote Töpperwein to prove the shootings (although he apparently witnessed some, which were shootings of Jews because they were Jews) but rather to provide another independent and contemporary source mirroring statements in the EG reports. Which reports, you've forgotten, you described as falsified in your OP and the claim which I've been replying to in this thread. Your silence on the Polish underground reports is quite "interesting."

Also of course no single witness can prove that genocidal murders took place across the vast territory conquered and occupied by Germany. Töpperwein is just one observer who recorded the things he saw and heard - which align with records of other witnesses and the lead perpetrators themselves. The way people understand this stuff is from multiple sources and diverse kinds of evidence, a methodology over the heads of one source at a time chimps like the ones you quote from CODOH.

More to the point, I've forgotten about your inane witterings and am posting information for readers actually interested in what people knew, heard, and made of events. You are not among these readers, and your empty and desultory sputtering in this thread has long ceased to be relevant.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:34 pm

"Ceased"... :lol:

You're too kind, StatMech.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:03 am

Would these German reports on the spread of information about extermination actions in the occupied east be further cases, according to Monstrous, of post-war Soviet fabrications?

Wehrmacht Supreme Command War Economy and Armaments Office, Staff 1a
Travel Report on a Visit to the Section Army Group Central, 21 July 1941
BArch-MA, RW 19/473
According to a report from Major Frantz, 2,600 Jews were recently shot in Bialystok. He drove through a street that had been closed off by police, and asked a German police officer, “Are Jews being deported here?” “No,” he replied, “but they’re being shot.”

The day before, they shot 2,600 Jews, the next day 6,000 were to follow. Supposedly all Jews between the ages of 15 and 60 are being shot. According to the police officer, the operation is being carried out daily, each day by a different century of men on duty. Several police officers who are no longer able to take part in such operations because of nervous breakdowns have reported ill to a German physician on duty there. As yet there has been no execution of Jews in Baranawitschy.
p 530 (for Bialystok, see Bender, pp 90-98; mass executions of Jews in Baranowitschi had begun just after the invasion of the USSR, in June 1941 and continued for over a year)

Wehrmacht Supreme Command War Economy and Armaments Office, Staff 1a
Travel Report on a Visit to the Section Economics Inspection North, 11 August 1941
BArch-MA, RW 19/473
. . . in Libau (Liepaja) several thousand Jews have already been ‘liquidated,’ in part by German authorities, but to the greatest extent by the Latvians. They accuse the Jews of having made a pact with the Bolsheviks at the expense of the Latvians during the time of the Russian rule there. Until now, no Jewish women have been shot. There was talk that later on they would be disposed of by gassing.
pp 534-535 (see article by Anders and chapter from Ezergailis's book on Lativa; movie footage of a mass execution, made by a German stationed in Latvia, is here - warning: content is graphic)

SD [Main District Office Erfurt] (Observer)
Report in the “Völkischer Beobachter” About the Deployment of the SD in the East
Erfurt, 30 April 1942
ThHStAW, NS 29/53, Bd. 4
The Völkischer Beobachter of 30 April 1942 carries a detailed report by the SS war correspondent Schaal on the deployment of the SD in a small Soviet city. . . . As a result of repeated publications in the press and visual reports in the Weekly Newsreel on the area of activity of the German Security Police and the SD, people say they have learned more about these formations. There is talk about the use of the Gestapo in the occupied territories in the East, but they say they have not been able to put together a clear picture of the area of activity of the German Security Police, since the wildest rumors are in circulation about them. Thus, people are saying that the Security Police has the task of exterminating the Jews in the occupied territories in the occupied territories. They say that the Jews are being rounded up by the thousands and sot after first having been forced to dig their own graves. There is talk that shootings of Jews are of such proportions at times that even members of the execution squads are suffering nervous breakdowns. The talk is that these rumors have caused the population to form a gruesome picture of the activity of the Security Police. They say that for that reason, there is special interest when the press or weekly newsreels in the the theaters also report on these police formations.
pp 582-583

SD District Office Schwabach
Report for December 1942
Schwabach, 23 December 1942
StA Nü, LRA Hilpoltstein Abg. 1971 Nr. 1972
At the beginning of December, there was generally a depressed mood in the local area among the population, especially due to the stories being told be soldiers at the front . . .

One of the most powerful sources of alarm in circles connected with the church and in the rural population are at the moment tales from Russia which speak about the shooting and extermination of the Jews. . . . As broad sections of the rural population see the situation as not yet certain that we will win the war, and if we do not, when the Jews return some day, they will take a horrible revenge.
p 608

SD District Office Friedberg III A 4
Mood and Situation
Friedberg, 23 April 1943
StA Abg, NSDAP Gau Schwaben, SD Unterabschnitt Schwaben 2/1
There is only a modicum of additional discussion on the murder in the forest near Katyn. One can even hear the view that this matter has been exploited far too much by us for propaganda value. Here and there, some say that our enemies would also find mass graves in the eastern territories we have conquered. These are not Poles, but rather Jews who have been systematically murdered by our troops. So one shouldn’t make so much ado about such matters, especially since before this, there used to be a lot of comment about how inferior the Polish people were. . . .
pp 618-619

RSHA, Office III (SD)
SD Reports on Domestic Questions
Berlin, 26 July 1943
Boberach, p. 5531
. . . only scant attention has been given to the report of the discovery of mass graves in Vinnitsa [which German propaganda was attributing to the Soviets]. You can hear the view expressed that we likewise were relentless in eradicating all elements of opposition in the East, especially the Jews. Stories from soldiers and other persons deployed in the East play a large part in this. . . .
p 630

SD [District Office Stuttgart] III C 4
Report on the Leadership, 6 November 1944
IWM, Aus deutschen Urkunden 1933-1945, p. 275
“What is the intention of the leadership in publishing such pictures as were in the NS-Kurier on Saturday? The leaders should realize that any thinking individual who sees these murdered victims will immediately think of the atrocities that we committed in the enemy’s territory, yes even in Germany. Didn’t we slaughter the Jews by the thousands? Don’t soldiers repeatedly tell stories that the Jews in Poland were forced to dig their own graves? . . .” (numerous voices from all circles of the population)
p 656

quotations from Kulka & Jäckel, eds., The Jews in the Secret Nazi Reports on Popular Opinion in Germany, 1933-1945
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:40 pm

that's outstanding SM! Great work!

Kulka & Jäckel wouldn't happen to have any reports about AR rumors now would they?

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:18 pm

IIRC (the friggin' book is over 700pp long and I read it quite a while ago) many references to the extermination or annihilation of Jews generally, pro and con (e.g., from the SD District Office in Kitzingen 13 September 1943 - "Clerk: 'The rotten thing about our leaders is that after they exterminated the Jews, they pounced on their houses . . ."), some specific references to Auschwitz (one that basically says Katyn/Soviets, Auschwitz/Germans), many mentions of deportations to east (including details on those to Riga and so on, even mentions of Sonderzüge, etc) but no statements specifically about Einsatz Reinhard camps, which is IMO expected given the secrecy about and location of those camps.

Here's another one that may relate to the Einsatz Reinhard camps but also to Auschwitz or open-air shootings (SD District Office Bad Neustadt, General Mood and Situation, Bad Neustadt, 15 October 1943, StA Wü, SD-Hauptaufßenstelle Würzburg Nr. 14):
According to a rumor from Münnerstadt, the enemy powers sent an enquiry to the Führer via the Red Cross, asking about the whereabouts of the Jews who used to live in the Reich. After that, the Führer had the Jews dug up and their remains burned, so that with a further retreat in the East, the Soviets do not get hold of any propaganda material like that discovered near Katyn, etc.
p 635 (this report indicates that Germans were hearing about the work of SK 1005 and/or corpse cremation efforts at death camps during 1943, almost in real time, whereas Monstrous would have it that the Soviets invented such stuff after the war; it's interesting to encounter such widespread guilt feelings among Germans prompted by Goebbels's propaganda about Katyn, which seems to have elicited enough popular comment on, and consternation about, what people had heard that a number such remarks and expressions reached the SD)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:IIRC (the friggin' book is over 700pp long and I read it quite a while ago) many references to the extermination or annihilation of Jews generally, pro and con (e.g., from the SD District Office in Kitzingen 13 September 1943 - "Clerk: 'The rotten thing about our leaders is that after they exterminated the Jews, they pounced on their houses . . ."), some specific references to Auschwitz (one that basically says Katyn/Soviets, Auschwitz/Germans), many mentions of deportations to east (including details on those to Riga and so on, even mentions of Sonderzüge, etc) but no statements specifically about Einsatz Reinhard camps, which is IMO expected given the secrecy about and location of those camps.

Here's another one that may relate to the Einsatz Reinhard camps but also to Auschwitz or open-air shootings (SD District Office Bad Neustadt, General Mood and Situation, Bad Neustadt, 15 October 1943, StA Wü, SD-Hauptaufßenstelle Würzburg Nr. 14):
According to a rumor from Münnerstadt, the enemy powers sent an enquiry to the Führer via the Red Cross, asking about the whereabouts of the Jews who used to live in the Reich. After that, the Führer had the Jews dug up and their remains burned, so that with a further retreat in the East, the Soviets do not get hold of any propaganda material like that discovered near Katyn, etc.
p 635 (this report indicates that Germans were hearing about the work of SK 1005 and/or corpse cremation efforts at death camps during 1943, almost in real time, whereas Monstrous would have it that the Soviets invented such stuff after the war; it's interesting to encounter such widespread guilt feelings among Germans prompted by Goebbels's propaganda about Katyn, which seems to have elicited enough popular comment on, and consternation about, what people had heard that a number such remarks and expressions reached the SD)
Well, there was reports from German officers in Poland to the Swedish Consul in Posen IIRC. Also the Hosenfeld diary and two reports from German soldiers passing by Treblinka and Belzec respectively. So there is no way that deniers can use the lack of remarks on AR to their advantage.

On the contrary, AR seems to have been universally known in the Polish population. I encountered a lady on a message board once who's grandparents were from Malkinia, she stated that it was common knowledge in the town. Harrison posed a communique from a nationalist Polish resistance group that stated IIRC that the extermination of Jews on polish turf was a good thing.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:13 pm

The secret SD reports were about what ordinary Germans were hearing, thinking, saying, and doing; they depended on the SD staff coming across particular rumors, information, statements in circulation. Ordinary Germans didn't have the kind of connections diplomats and officials might have. Thus, as above, a lot of what was being repeated came from soldiers on leave, the kind of people that ordinary folks would know and hear from.

Certainly, it's possible that information about Treblinka, Sobibór, and Bełzec reached some people in the Reich - but to appear in an SD secret report it would also have to be repeated so that an SD operative would pick it up. With the camp's location, and secrecy measures in place for Einsatz Reinhard, the chance of SD agents hearing such "chatter" would be less than for "chatter" about Auschwitz (mixed purpose, large, near Krakow) or the open-air shootings.

It's a different story with people like Hosenfeld or Gerstein. Take Gerstein: he hoped to get word out to authorities who might somehow intervene or support him in some way; so he told von Otter (Swedish diplomat), church officials (Dibelius, von Preysing, the Papal Nuncio in the Swiss legation) and his father (a retired judge) - as opposed to engaging in risky - but ineffectual - chats with neighbors or friends.

Also, as you say, near the Einsatz Reinhard camps - with ghettos relatively close by, escapees, train traffic, German and eastern workers, foul odors, underground groups present, etc - there was a good chance for information to get out and to spread.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:03 pm

Zagare (Lithuania) Aktion

Recall that Töpperwein wrote that he'd "heard dreadful, apparently accurate details about how we have exterminated the Jews (from infants to the aged) in Lithuania!" Let's come at this a different way, focusing on provincial towns in Lithuania rather than on Vilnius and Kaunas, where the anti-Jewish actions are better known.

According to the testimonies of Berl and Sheyne Peretzman, Helman Fridman, and Mordechai Bleyman (see below on sources), concerning the town of Zagare in northern Lithuania, not far from Siauliai (Shavli), a ghetto was formed in Zagare at the end of July 1941; women and children were moved into the ghetto whilst the men “remained in the synagogue that was located outside the boundaries of the established quarter.”

Zagare had a Jewish population of less than 1,500; however, Jews from various places were also brought to the Zagare ghetto, according to the survivors as follows:

- Pasvitinys (per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuan ... 6_191.html: “One day they were loaded onto carts and driven to Zhager. It is believed that they were murdered together with Zhager Jews on the day after Yom Kippur 5702 (October 2, 1941).”)

- Joniskis: 60-70 women and children only were brought to Zagare as “the [Shaulist] partisans shot the others to death on the way, near the village of Skaistgirys”; according to the Jaeger Report, there was a killing action in Joniskis on 27 August 1941 - with 355 victims, 47 men, 164 women and 143 children); per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00339.html:
On July 18, another decree was published, ordering the Jews to pay, by the following day at noon, a fine of 20,000 rubles because they did not comply with the orders that were published on July 11. After the money was collected and paid, the Jews were driven out of their homes and were concentrated in the synagogue. 150 Jewish men were taken out of the synagogue and were led to Vilkiausis Forest, about 5 km outside of the city. They were forced to dig pits there and were then shot and buried in those pits. On August 27, 1941 (4 Elul, 5701), after being forced to handover all their valuables and belongings, the remaining Jewish men, women and children were taken out of the synagogue and were led to the same forest, where they were all murdered. It has been told that the murderers forced the old Rabbi, Rabbi Nakhum-Bezalel Dzimitrovsky, to stand at the edge of the pit and count the number of Jews who were murdered. 355 men, women and children were murdered on that day. On September 1, the mayor of Joniskis wrote a letter to the mayor of Zagare, notifying him that during August 24-29, 150 Jews were transferred to Zagare.

(This Joniskis action appears in the Jäger report, for 27 August '41: "47 Jews, 165 Jewesses, 143 Jewish children" for a total of 355 shot.)

- Kriukai: “all the Jews” from there were transferred; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00616.html:
At the end of June 1941, Kriukai, was taken by the German forces, as well as the rest of Lithuania. Lithuanian nationalists took power over the town and tormented the Jews, their lifelong neighbors. When the Lithuanian authorities planned to remove the Jews from the town in order to destroy them, as ordered by the Germans, the matter became known to the old priest and two local teachers. They attempted to interfere and to prevent the tragedy, but the murderers deceived them and carried out their murderous plans. In the autumn of 1941, the entire Jewish community the town of Zagare [sic], were murdered together with the other Jews of the neighborhood, on Yom Kippur. . . .

- Akmene: “there were women, children and few men”; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00155.html:
On August 4, 1941 all the remaining prisoners were transferred to three silos on the bank of the river Venta, near Mazhaik. The men were taken immediately to dig pits and the women were attached to the Jewish women who had been imprisoned in Mazhaik prior to all of this. All of them were murdered together with the Jews of Mazhaik and the surroundings on August 9, 1941.
- Papile: “there were only women and children”; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00470.html:
On July 7, 1941, S.S. personnel came to Papile and received from the Lithuanians a group of imprisoned Jews (among them were the lawyer Hirsh Rakhmil, the accountant Leib Itsikson, Moshe Sher and others). The Jews were led outside the town, where they were forced to dig graves for themselves, and were then shot to death and covered with earth. Some of them were buried while still alive. A week later, the Jews were ordered to get out of their homes, to lock them up and to hand over the keys to the authorities. Then, they were forced to march through the town while holding pictures of Lenin and Stalin. All of them were led to the stables of an estate in Siaudine, near the village of Dilbyciai, and were kept there in harsh conditions while being tortured and humiliated. On July 18, 1941 (23 Tamuz, 5701), dozens of armed Lithuanians broke into the stables, took the Jewish men to a nearby forest and after torturing and beating them, they shot them to death. The women and children, who remained without food and in horrible sanitary conditions and who were sick and exhausted, were transferred on August 25 on wagons to Zagare, where they were locked up in the local Beth Midrash together with the surviving Jews from the surrounding towns.
- Kursenai: “there were only women and children”; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuan ... 6_108.html:
After a short time, all males aged 12 years and older were ordered to assemble in the great Beth Midrash. Ten invalids and mentally ill people were taken out and never seen again. Fifteen men were imprisoned in the local jail and from there they were taken to the Shavl prison. A week later, 150 men were driven in trucks in the direction of Shavl, whence they were taken to a forest, about 3 km. from Kurshan. There, they were led in groups of twenty to a long pit that had been prepared before, and were shot. The remaining men, including the town's Rabbi Yerakhmiel Litvin, were murdered on July 16,1941 (21st of Tamuz, 5701). For the women and children a so-called ghetto was established in two small streets in the town. The women were allowed to go out for one hour a day to buy food, but mostly they were cursed and chased away. On August 15, 1941, all the women and children were transported to Zhager (Zagare). Before leaving, the women were searched for money and gold by two Lithuanian women volunteers. They were stripped, and the search was brutal and humiliating. All that they possessed was taken away from them. In Zhager they were then forced to do agricultural work for Lithuanian peasants. Later they were murdered together with Zhager Jews.
- Siaulenai: “Helman [Fridman] saw the Jewish men, women and children from Siaulenai being taken to Zagare on the road behind Joniskis”; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00672.html:
During the days of the Yamim Noraim (High Holy Days) of September 1941 the Jews were transferred to Zagare and there massacred together with the local Jews on the day after Yom HaKipurim (October 2, 1941). They were all buried in a mass grave in the ‘park’ in Zagare.
- Radviliskis: the “majority” of the town’s Jews were sent to Zagare, with some managing to get to the ghetto in Siauliai (this transport was dated to 25 August by eyewitness Reyne Kaplan, who stated that about 100 women with children went to Siauliai and 300 to Zagare, mostly women and children taken from Radviliskis by coach); per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00625.html:
On July 8, 1941, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, all the Jews were ordered to report within 15-20 minutes outside the front door of their houses. The armed Lithuanians led all the Jews with their bundles to the old and deserted wooden barracks of the Lithuanian military. Here they were told that Jews are forbidden to have any contact with the Christian population. They were also ordered to wear a yellow patch on their chests and backs and were forbidden to walk on the sidewalks. The men and young women were still taken each day to do various types of work. Those who remained in the camp were ordered to build around it a barbed wire fence around it. Two policemen, a Lithuanian and a German, guarded the gate. . . . On August 26, 1941, the people in the camp were told that the barracks are needed for the German army and that the Jews will be moved to Zagare. In order to meet this end, so the Jews were told, they will be transported there for free, but those who prefer to go to Siauliai will need a permit from the town's authorities. The majority, about 400, moved to Zagare, where the day after Yom Kippur, on October 2, 1941, they perished with all the other Jews that were brought there from the surrounding towns. Some of those who went to the Siauliai ghetto were murdered there, and some survived after being in concentration camps in Germany, where Siauliai Jews were taken in the summer of 1944 after the ghetto was liquidated. . . .
- Pageluvis: men, women, children

- Bazionai: men, women, children (per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00168.html: “At the end of August of 1941, the imprisoned Jews, young and old, were transferred to Zhagare.”)

- Makaija: men, women, children

- Paryzius: men, women, children

- Tryskiai: “there were only women and children”; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/lithuan ... 6_341.html:
In the middle of July the Jews were ordered to leave their houses and they were led to the estate of Graf Plater, where they were crammed in a barn. A barbed wire fence was placed around the barn and Lithuanian guards were stationed around. Later, three Germans arrived and ordered 70 Jewish men out of the barn. Lithuanians who knew these men prepared a list of names. Everyone was called by his name and profession to make it appear that he was called to work outside. These men were taken to the shores of the Virvyte River where the Kaganton's flourmill stood, about 300 meters from the road to Telz. They were ordered to undress and led in small groups to prepared pits. There they were shot and buried. Women and children were kept in the barn longer. Money and valuables were taken from them and in exchange they received small rations of food. Hungry and weak, they walked around in circles inside the closed barn. When the women inquired about the fate of their husbands they were told that the men were working and would soon return home. At the beginning of August the women were told that they would join their husbands, but in fact they were led to Gruzd (Gruzdžiai) and there, they were left in an open field without any shelter from the burning sun, wind or rain, and suffered abuse by the Lithuanian guards. A week later, in the middle of August, they were brought to the Zhager ghetto.
- Gruzdziai: Jews from the old-age home there; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 0195e.html:
The remaining Jews, men, women and children, were taken to the town of Zagare a month later and there murdered and buried together with Jews gathered from other places in the vicinity, and who had been gathered there on Yom Hakipurim . . . The Day of Atonement, 1941. . . .
(no mention of the Jews from Tryskiai or of the old-age home)

- Siauliai: Jews from the old-age home there; orphans from there brought and shot; per http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 0658c.html:
Some of the Jews awaiting housing permits in the town, and those kept in the “Kloyz de Landkremer” and in the old people's home, in total some 1,000 souls, were murdered and buried in pits prepared in advance in Bubiai, 14 km. south west of the town. Others died in Zagare. . . . On September 6, 1941, 47 children were taken out of the orphanage together with their teacher Avraham Katz and the housemother Zhenia Karpel and sent to their death. On September 10, 1941, 130 old and sick Jews were taken out of the ghetto and murdered.
The Zagare Jews, including those transported to Zagare from provincial towns, were exterminated on 2 October 1941 according to testimony of Berl and Sheyne Peretzman, Helman Fridman, and Mordechai Bleyman as well as the Jäger Report (2,236 victims, 633 men, 1,107 women, and 496 children). The demographic breakdown on the victims provided by Jäger is in line with the impression conveyed by the Lithuanian survivors in their DP camp testimonies ("Koniukhovsky Collection"). A report of the Head of Department of Counterespionage “Smersh” of the 1st Baltic Front, General-Lieutenant Khannikov, on 6 October 1944 stated that
The medico-legal examining group opened the graves and exhumed 2,448 corpses from there, among which the following were revealed:

Corpses of men – 574
Corpses of women – 1,225
Corpses of children under 15 – 675
Corpses of babies – 24
The Zagare extermination action was reported in Einsatzgruppen Report No. 155:
In Lithuania, an effort had to be made thoroughly to purge the rural districts and the small towns of Jew. Apart from basic considerations, this was also an urgent necessity because Communist elements, particularly terror groups and parts of the Polish resistance movement, made contact with the Jew, instigating them to carry on sabotage and to offer resistance. . . . Several times guards were fired at from the Kaunas ghetto.

The Jews were particularly active in Zagare. There, on October 2, 1941, 50 Jews escaped from the ghetto which had already been cordoned off. Most of them were recaptured and shot in the course of a large-scale action which was carried out immediately. In the course of subsequent preparations for the wholesale execution of the Zagare Jews, at a prearranged signal, they attacked the guards and the men of the Security Police Einsatzkommando while being transported to the place of execution. Several Jews who had not been searched thoroughly enough by the Lithuanian guards drew knives and pistols and uttering cries like ‘Long live Stalin!’ and ‘Down with Hitler!’ they rushed the police force, seven of whom were wounded. Resistance was broken at once. After 150 Jews were shot on the spot, the transport of the remaining Jews to the place of execution was carried out without further incident.
(Arad OSR collection, p 277) Jäger’s report was more laconic, omitting the escape of 50 Jews mentioned in OSR No. 155 but noting Jewish resistance and injuries suffered by members of the murder squad in the course of their duty:
as these Jews [over 2,000 slated for execution] were led away, a mutiny took place, which nonetheless was immediately put down. 7 [Lithuanian] partisans were wounded.
The survivors’ description of the liquidation action on 2 October explained that the shooting had begun in the town’s market square, when Lithuanian riflemen began shooting at the signal from Kuloksa, a Lithuanian attorney representing the district commissar.
On that day the partisans surrounded the entire town so that no one would be able to escape. The Jews who had been killed in the market square were immediately transported by truck and then thrown into a put near the town’s park. The Jews who remained alive were driven from the market square by truck or on foot to the pit near the park. There they were forced to remove their clothes and enter the put where they were then shot. Groups of men and women were shot together.

The Lithuanian partisans then, according to the survivors, searched homes for Jews who remained, “mostly older men and women, as well as the sick.” These were taken by car or coach, or driven on foot, to the shooting area. Last the partisans rounded up children “from their homes. They didn’t shoot them at the pit; they murdered them and then threw them into the pit.” Searches for survivors took two more days, according to the witness-survivors.

According to the entry for Zagare in Pinkas Hakehillot Lita - http://www.jewishgen.org/yizkor/pinkas_ ... 00277.html), after the Lithuanians began shooting the Jews assembled in the market square,
Alter Zagorsky cried out to those still alive, ‘Jews, run for your lives!’ He then drew a knife and stabbed one of the Lithuanian murderers to death. Another Jew, Avraham Ackerman, attacked a second Lithuanian and bit his neck. Zagorsky and Ackerman were shot to death on the spot, but the ensuing confusion allowed many Jews to escape. Additional bands of armed Lithuanians were summoned to the scene, where they took control over the remaining Jews, including those who had run away. They were taken to the Narishkin Park, where nearby pits had already been prepared in advance. Here the Jews were shot to death and buried. Infants and children were murdered by bashing their heads against trees. Many were shoved into the pits alive. The victims' clothes and possessions were stolen by their neighbors, or seized by the murderers or the local authorities. Very few Jews survived the slaughter . . .
The Soviets created forensic reports based on studies conducted at Zagare, one (Central Archive of FSB of Russia. Fund 100. List 11. File 5. Pages 143–146) of which misdated the mass killing action to early September, described three “tombs” in or near the town:
The 1st tomb is situated in the north-eastern part of the Žagare city park. The park is surrounded by a stone wall. A sandy mound rises 30 cm above the tomb. The oats on the territory of the park and on the tomb were cut down and thrown away before the beginning of exhumation of corpses. The size of the tomb: length – 122 m, width – 4 m, depth – 2 m. The tomb has the shape of the letter “L”. In the south-eastern part – a tomb sized 42 < 4 m, and in the north-western – 80 < 4 m. The soil is black, loamy and moist. The corpses in the tomb are placed without order: they lie facedown; some of them prone. Among the corpses of men and women scattered in every directions tone can see children of different ages. Most of the corpses are without clothes and shoes on. On some corpses one can only see underwear. Some of the children’s corpses have their clothes on. Many corpses have a cardboard six-pointed star on their clothes, sewn or pinned to the left side of their chest. Most of the corpses are in the condition of grave wax, and their shape has preserved. A comparably small part of the corpses turned into a shapeless grave wax mass that falls into peaces if you touch it. Eight corpses are discovered skeletonized with grave wax on their extremities and in areas of location of chest and stomach cavities. Between separate corpses one can see a thin interlayer.

The second tomb is located at the Jewish cemetery to the west of Žagare. The tomb has a conical bank raised 40 cm above the surface. The tomb is: in length – 5 m, in width – 4,0 m, in depth – 1,5 m. The soil is sandy, a little stony. The corpses in the tomb lie disorderly. Almost all of the corpses don’t have any clothes or shoes on. Some of the corpses are only dressed in underwear. Corpses are in the condition of grave wax. 4 corpses are skeletonized. All of the corpses in the tomb are male.

The third tomb is in the outskirts of the city, 2 km north-east of Žagare. The tomb has a trapezoidal shape with a deepening of 10–20 cm; in size the tomb is: length – 3 m, width – 2 m. [...] Soil is loamy, boggy. Corpses are dressed in civil clothes and are in the condition of grave wax; all of the corpses have their hands tied up with a rope.

Corpses from the above-mentioned graves were extracted and subjected to a medico-legal research.
Details of the first tomb (size, arrangement of bodies, location in park, etc) match well with the above testimonies. The second and third tombs relate to August executions, including one involving 47 Jews and another “8 communists [who had been] were shot 2 km north-east of Žagare. Communists had been arrested early in July, 1941 . . .” The relevant reports are: Central Archive of FSB of Russia. Fund 100. List 11. File 5. Pages 143–146; Central Archive of FSB of Russia. Fund100. List 11. File 1. Pages 27–29; Central Archive of FSB of Russia. Fund 100. List 11. File 1. Pages 32–33.

(based on testimonies from Koniukhovsky Collection (compiled in Bankier's book, Expulsion and Extermination: Holocaust Testimonials from Provincial Lithuania), the Jäger report and EG reporting, and other sources as indicated; the Pinkas Hakehillot Lita entries cited make use of the Koniukhovsky Collection as well as many other materials.)
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:10) Oh, it should also be noted that the Polish underground was not uniformed as to the work of Sonderkommando 1005 in destroying the evidence of the crimes of the Germans in the east: on 4 November 1943 Biuletyn Informacyjny reported that what it described as “liquidation actions” concerning the mass graves of the Jews, where Germans were said to be burning the bodies of victims to conceal the murders. (Zimmerman, p 364)
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's another one that may relate to the Einsatz Reinhard camps but also to Auschwitz or open-air shootings (SD District Office Bad Neustadt, General Mood and Situation, Bad Neustadt, 15 October 1943, StA Wü, SD-Hauptaufßenstelle Würzburg Nr. 14):
According to a rumor from Münnerstadt, the enemy powers sent an enquiry to the Führer via the Red Cross, asking about the whereabouts of the Jews who used to live in the Reich. After that, the Führer had the Jews dug up and their remains burned, so that with a further retreat in the East, the Soviets do not get hold of any propaganda material like that discovered near Katyn, etc.
p 635 (this report indicates that Germans were hearing about the work of SK 1005 and/or corpse cremation efforts at death camps during 1943, almost in real time, whereas Monstrous would have it that the Soviets invented such stuff after the war; it's interesting to encounter such widespread guilt feelings among Germans prompted by Goebbels's propaganda about Katyn, which seems to have elicited enough popular comment on, and consternation about, what people had heard that a number such remarks and expressions reached the SD)
64 slave-laborers working in SK1005-B at the IX Fort in Kaunas (unearthing and cremating the corpses of Jews murdered in the IX Fort during the German occupation, mostly in 1941) escaped on Christmas 1943. They split into 3 groups, two of which made their way to the Kaunas ghetto to contact the Jewish underground and one going directly to the forests to try hooking up with partisans.

Faitelson provides a detailed account of the escape. But he also includes German and Lithuanian documentation about the aftermath of the escape:

- radiogram no. 643, sent to a local police chief (Rokiškis) on 26 December 1943, with early and erroneous information, directing his office to search for the escapees (p 252)
- a follow-up message (no. 651) sent on the same day by the chief of the Lithuanian constabulary providing information (still not accurate) to assist in the search for the escapees; the message said that sixteen of the escapees had “typical Jewish faces”); the message noted that “All the escapees exude a specific stench” (the escapees, aware that their work with rotting corpses caused this order, made cleaning themselves up one of their first tasks in the ghetto) (pp 252-253; reproduced in Lithuanian on p 254)
- another follow-up message, this one sent on 27 December by Schulz, a German police officer, to police headquarters in Vilnius, urging that the escapees by sought “vigorously” (p 253)
- a police message sent 26 December with information on the escapees and directing urgently that they be captured; this message included a sentence reading, “The terrible stench arouses special notice” (pp 255-256)
- two or three other examples of messages giving search instructions to local police across Lithuania, including one on 26 December that the “entrance from Rovno to Shavli should be checked in order to catch them in the area of the forest” (pp 255-256) and another one from Lithuanian collaborator A. Lileikis providing more information on the escapees (p 256)
- records of teaches conducted on 30-31 December 1943 by Lithuanian units under command of the Gestapo, in the Babtai and Vandzhiogala forests (p 255)
- a 13 January German police report specifically describing the escapees as “sixty-four workers employed on campaign 1005-B,” “B” being the designation for the Sonderkommando crew whose members were involved in the escape; this report stated that 37 escapees had been captured (p 257)
- reports sent by Kaltenbrunner to Himmler regarding the commanders of the IX Fort and Kaunas police force who were in charge and on whose watch the escape occurred; Kaltenbrunner sent messages to Himmler on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944; the messages describe the arrests of Obersturmführer Radif, commander of the IX Fort, and gendarme Apelt for negligence, mentions the number of escapees captured (37, Kaltenbrunner either was given bad information on the escape process and search or lied to Himmler, including the erroneous detail that the leader of the escape was already captured), made a plea to return Radif and Apelt to duty with a pardon (then asked for retrospective permission for the release of the two from house arrest, which Kaltenbrunner had done on his own), and recommended halting further judicial investigation
- on 29 February 1944, Himmler replied to Kaltenbrunner, by way of a message from SS judge Bender, agreeing to time server for Radif and Apelt and their return to duty with a stern warning to honor Himmler’s leniency by showing in their performance that they deserved it (pp 262-263)
- reproductions of Kaltenbrunner’s reports to Himmler made on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944 and a reproduction of SS judge Bender’s approval message back to Kaltenbrunner (pp 266-272)

Interesting material from a number of angles - Kaltenbrunner's reports are at odds with how he tried having his role post-war, the documents depict the urgency surrounding both the danger to the Reich posed by this escape and the confidentiality of the work (e.g., the quashing of further investigation), and here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005 . . .
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:31 pm

Monstrous wrote:. . . The evidence for fabrications and false testimonies is particularly clear regarding the alleged gas vans . . .
Hans keeps the good stuff coming over at HC.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:58 pm

More on gas vans, this excellent piece at HC by Sergey Romanov focused on denier double standards and hypocrisy.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:10) Oh, it should also be noted that the Polish underground was not uniformed as to the work of Sonderkommando 1005 in destroying the evidence of the crimes of the Germans in the east: on 4 November 1943 Biuletyn Informacyjny reported that what it described as “liquidation actions” concerning the mass graves of the Jews, where Germans were said to be burning the bodies of victims to conceal the murders. (Zimmerman, p 364)
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here's another one that may relate to the Einsatz Reinhard camps but also to Auschwitz or open-air shootings (SD District Office Bad Neustadt, General Mood and Situation, Bad Neustadt, 15 October 1943, StA Wü, SD-Hauptaufßenstelle Würzburg Nr. 14):
According to a rumor from Münnerstadt, the enemy powers sent an enquiry to the Führer via the Red Cross, asking about the whereabouts of the Jews who used to live in the Reich. After that, the Führer had the Jews dug up and their remains burned, so that with a further retreat in the East, the Soviets do not get hold of any propaganda material like that discovered near Katyn, etc.
p 635 (this report indicates that Germans were hearing about the work of SK 1005 and/or corpse cremation efforts at death camps during 1943, almost in real time, whereas Monstrous would have it that the Soviets invented such stuff after the war; it's interesting to encounter such widespread guilt feelings among Germans prompted by Goebbels's propaganda about Katyn, which seems to have elicited enough popular comment on, and consternation about, what people had heard that a number such remarks and expressions reached the SD)
64 slave-laborers working in SK1005-B at the IX Fort in Kaunas (unearthing and cremating the corpses of Jews murdered in the IX Fort during the German occupation, mostly in 1941) escaped on Christmas 1943. They split into 3 groups, two of which made their way to the Kaunas ghetto to contact the Jewish underground and one going directly to the forests to try hooking up with partisans.

Faitelson provides a detailed account of the escape. But he also includes German and Lithuanian documentation about the aftermath of the escape:

- radiogram no. 643, sent to a local police chief (Rokiškis) on 26 December 1943, with early and erroneous information, directing his office to search for the escapees (p 252)
- a follow-up message (no. 651) sent on the same day by the chief of the Lithuanian constabulary providing information (still not accurate) to assist in the search for the escapees; the message said that sixteen of the escapees had “typical Jewish faces”); the message noted that “All the escapees exude a specific stench” (the escapees, aware that their work with rotting corpses caused this order, made cleaning themselves up one of their first tasks in the ghetto) (pp 252-253; reproduced in Lithuanian on p 254)
- another follow-up message, this one sent on 27 December by Schulz, a German police officer, to police headquarters in Vilnius, urging that the escapees by sought “vigorously” (p 253)
- a police message sent 26 December with information on the escapees and directing urgently that they be captured; this message included a sentence reading, “The terrible stench arouses special notice” (pp 255-256)
- two or three other examples of messages giving search instructions to local police across Lithuania, including one on 26 December that the “entrance from Rovno to Shavli should be checked in order to catch them in the area of the forest” (pp 255-256) and another one from Lithuanian collaborator A. Lileikis providing more information on the escapees (p 256)
- records of teaches conducted on 30-31 December 1943 by Lithuanian units under command of the Gestapo, in the Babtai and Vandzhiogala forests (p 255)
- a 13 January German police report specifically describing the escapees as “sixty-four workers employed on campaign 1005-B,” “B” being the designation for the Sonderkommando crew whose members were involved in the escape; this report stated that 37 escapees had been captured (p 257)
- reports sent by Kaltenbrunner to Himmler regarding the commanders of the IX Fort and Kaunas police force who were in charge and on whose watch the escape occurred; Kaltenbrunner sent messages to Himmler on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944; the messages describe the arrests of Obersturmführer Radif, commander of the IX Fort, and gendarme Apelt for negligence, mentions the number of escapees captured (37, Kaltenbrunner either was given bad information on the escape process and search or lied to Himmler, including the erroneous detail that the leader of the escape was already captured), made a plea to return Radif and Apelt to duty with a pardon (then asked for retrospective permission for the release of the two from house arrest, which Kaltenbrunner had done on his own), and recommended halting further judicial investigation
- on 29 February 1944, Himmler replied to Kaltenbrunner, by way of a message from SS judge Bender, agreeing to time server for Radif and Apelt and their return to duty with a stern warning to honor Himmler’s leniency by showing in their performance that they deserved it (pp 262-263)
- reproductions of Kaltenbrunner’s reports to Himmler made on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944 and a reproduction of SS judge Bender’s approval message back to Kaltenbrunner (pp 266-272)

Interesting material from a number of angles - Kaltenbrunner's reports are at odds with how he tried having his role post-war, the documents depict the urgency surrounding both the danger to the Reich posed by this escape and the confidentiality of the work (e.g., the quashing of further investigation), and here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005 . . .
Citing the above-referenced Faitelson book - and the important documents reprinted in it - Sergey Romanov in another excellent blog entry at HC utterly demolishes the liars, Mattogno and Graf, on whom Monstrous has relied for false charges regarding the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied USSR.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:10 pm

And a bit more on German erasure of the crimes in the East, from a completely different angle . . . CSDIC secret recordings (here and following posts) of German officers in captivity include prisoners' thoughts on German atrocities and their likelihood of being held to account. An exchange between Generalmajor F Kittel and Generalleutnant H Schaeffer includes the following, from December 1944, on mass extermination actions in Poland:

SCHAEFFER: Do you think the corpses were burnt?
KITTEL: No, that's just it, everything is still there.

After the two officers discussed corpses left at "Lublin" (Majdanek?), Schaeffer said, "How stupid!"

(Kittel was also recorded describing mass executions of Jews by German police and Latvian auxiliaries near Daugavpils, Latvia, in summer 1941 - including his efforts to make the murders less public and more orderly.)

Other officers also complained about the mess left behind by the killing units. One view voiced by German prisoners was that it would have been better to wait on exterminating the Jews until the war had been won: "Most of them held the opinion that it was foolish to kill the Jews too early, before victory was secured. One ought to have made [the Jews] work with dangerous war materials. Then, most of them would have been killed at work and the remainder of them could have been murdered after victory was achieved." (from notes by an imbedded OSS agent on conversations he listened in on; even while criticizing the extermination policy, these conversations apparently echoed such features as the attritional labor/murder symbiosis) Also: "I would be the first to agree to getting rid of the Jews. But why massacre them? That can be done after the war when we can say . . . We have the power! . . . we have won the war." (CSDIC recording, Colonel Jösting, 1945) Another enlisted man also described the mass extermination as premature and added, "The Jews are cunning and tough. Proof of this is the difficulty of exterminating them." (CSDIC recording, 1944)

Four important points come through in these recordings:
1) knowledge of the mass extermination was less restricted than many assume
2) even military officers and regular troops were aware of issues such as covering up German murders of Jews (and Soviet POWs)
3) clean-up efforts, in contrast to the strawman liars like our friend Monstrous use, were known to be incomplete by the Germans and the Allies as early as 1944-1945
4) the main arguments of the architects of the genocide, including anti-Semitic ideology, penetrated into the military

Norman J.W. Goda, "True Confessions: Allied Intelligence, German Prisoners, Nazi Murders," in David Bankier, ed., Secret Intelligence and the Holocaust, 2006, pp 162-166
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:01 pm

I've been of the view that the defense Ohlendorf offered at his NMT trial - that Hitler/Himmler had ordered mass executions of Jews where the Germans would occupy Soviet territory before Barbarossa - was self-serving, designed to take advantage of the trial charter provisions on superior orders and thus to mitigate if not excuse the role of the EG commanders and officers in the mass murder.

I've just read an interesting article on this topic by Hilary Earl (in the Bankier Secret Intelligence collection) which challenges this argument.

Using Allied interrogation reports, Earl shows what Ohlendorf volunteered to his British and American captors and when (Ohlendorf never wavered on the essentials of his testimony, contra Butz):

- by 11 August 1945, Ohlendorf told the British that he had been "in charge of Einsatzgruppen D of the SS in the Crimea" - "responsible for the mass execution of 80,000 Jews, including women and children" under orders from Heydrich and Himmler (Ohlendforf would later give an estimate of 90,000 total victims of EG-D) (Earl surmises that the testimony to this effect may have been earlier in the summer, p 319)
- on 30 September 1945 Ohlendorf had told his British interrogators that he had led EG-D operations "on orders received from Heydrich and Himmler," and during his interrogations he thus explained the killing of non-combatants as a legal self-defense measure (pp 318-319)
- on 24 October 1945, now in American custody for use as a potential witness in the IMT trial, Ohlendorf told his interrogators that the EG commanders operated under basic orders given "in Berlin" but had individual initiative in how to execute the basic orders (p 319)
- later on the same day Ohlendorf explained that the first order came to EG leaders in May 1941 and a second order directly from Himmler in September 1941; according to Ohlendorf both orders were a general direction to murder all Jews in the occupied USSR; the May directive, given commanders at the Pretszch meeting, spotlighted the intent to "liquidate" the Jews as a core component of the EG mission (p 320)

Note: The Americans during this time were not planning to indict Ohlendorf, and Ohlendorf didn't expect to be charged with crimes for his mass liquidation operations or anything else, in fact; Ohlendorf's strategy postwar was to cooperate with the British and the Americans to the point of making himself indispensable to them. It was not until July 1947, two years later, that the Americans announced charges against Ohlendorf.

Earl evaluates the possibility that Ohlendorf was telling the truth about pre-June orders to exterminate Soviet Jews as likely. She argues that the reasoning historians have used to defend the case that Ohlendorf was lying don't stand up and, if he was lying, other reasons must have motivated him. Her reasoning is as follows (leaving aside her discussion of Ohlendorf's character and his arrogant, self-righteous conviction that his murder operations were legally and morally permissible):

- During the time when Ohlendorf provided his first testimony, from which he never deviated, about a pre-Barbarossa Führerbefehl he was not charged with any crime, he did not expect to be charged, and he was cooperating with the Allies.
- The Allies were not interrogating Ohlendorf to discover nuances of the development of the extermination policy - nor did they have at this time such evidence about the EGs as the EG Reports.
- Whilst Article 8 of the Nuremberg Charter held out the possibility of sentence mitigation for a defendant proven to have acted under superior orders, it would be far-fetched to suggest that Ohlendorf made up the pre-Barbarossa order on account of this since the charter was not adopted and issued until 8 August 1945; as we saw above, the first statements on pre-June superior orders which Ohlendorf made were around this time but probably earlier (the notion that by the time of his testimony 3 days after the charter was issued, Ohlendorf had studied it and formulated a new line of thinking about his approach to the Allies is a non-starter).
- Ohlendorf had no motive to lie on this topic, given the above, especially in the context of his frank and voluntary admission to having overseen the mass murder of 90,000 non-combatants in EG-D's area of operation, which he gave convinced not only that he'd done nothing wrong but that the Allies would agree with his view.

I am not totally convinced, but I do recognize the challenge in Earl's argument for my view that the EG Trial testimony about a pre-June order was simply a dishonest defense maneuver. What do others think?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:40 pm

I am of the opinion that Hoess's dating of the Himmler order was motivated by the same desire as OO's dating. An early order would allow both men to impose the defence of superior orders for their early actions which were as a result of local or self initiatives.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:38 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I am of the opinion that Hoess's dating of the Himmler order was motivated by the same desire as OO's dating. An early order would allow both men to impose the defence of superior orders for their early actions which were as a result of local or self initiatives.
But what do you make of Earl's argument that Ohlendorf wasn't thinking in terms of being charged - and the charter for the eventual trials didn't even exist - when he first pointed to the supposed pre-June extermination order - and that when he made the claim Ohlendorf believed that his cooperation with the Allies would continue and that he might even win some role in postwar Germany for being a good lad? Her point is that Ohlendorf wasn't charged yet when he first said this - and wasn't expecting to be - so why would he be thinking in terms of a trial defense?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Feb 10, 2016 5:31 pm

even though he may not have been anticipating a charge, he was likely adjusting things to make himself look better in the eyes of his hosts imo. And the possibility of a pre-Barbarossa policy on Russian Jews is still there, just not a general order in that time.

I recall hearing on HC that OO forced other EZG defendants to confirm to his description of a pre barbarossa order so as to cast all of them under the auspices of superior orders.

As for Hoess, there was no doubt that he was going to be put on trial and an early order would validate his self-driven actions in 1941.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:14 pm

I have to say that Earl is very convincing that Ohlendorf's motivations can't possibly be the traditional ones you allude to.

It is possible - she doesn't consider this - that he got meetings/dates confused.

Reading her essay, I also wanted to think that he didn't lie so much as invoke "superiors" to somehow assuage something gnawing at him unconsciously. Having said that, Earl is also pretty convincing, relying on Koontz and others as well as Ohlendorf's biography, that Ohlendorf was a true believe who did not experience on any level a twinge of what we think his conscience should have been telling him.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:36 am

I maintain that Hoess did backdate the order to cast his earlier actions under the auspicies of superior orders.

Ohlendorf honestly comes off as a complete {!#%@}. The notion of his telling the interrogators/prosecutors what they wanted to hear is outrageous. In his NMT trial he was verbally abusive to the prosecutor and made antisemitic remarks towards him on at least one occasion whilst defending his actions. Compare that with the behavior of Bukharin, Krestinsky et all at the Moscow show trials..... The architect of this thread got that wrong 100%.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:11 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I maintain that Hoess did backdate the order to cast his earlier actions under the auspicies of superior orders.
Earl is totally focused on Ohlendorf and the EGs, not on Höss or the death camps.
Jeff_36 wrote:Ohlendorf honestly comes off as a complete {!#%@}. The notion of his telling the interrogators/prosecutors what they wanted to hear is outrageous. In his NMT trial he was verbally abusive to the prosecutor and made antisemitic remarks towards him on at least one occasion whilst defending his actions. Compare that with the behavior of Bukharin, Krestinsky et all at the Moscow show trials..... The architect of this thread got that wrong 100%.
Earl also makes the same point, in academic language - delusions of superiority, arrogant, aloof, doctrinaire, lecturing, and obtuse. A competent man who believed fervently in National Socialism and replaced his moral compass with its philosophy - and who conceived himself a superior intellect and personality. I don't imagine him a fun guy to get a cup of tea or have a beer with.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:27 pm

a right {!#%@} eh?

show trials my ass.

Truth is I don't know what to make of Earl's argument: it seems totally plausible tbh.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:64 slave-laborers working in SK1005-B at the IX Fort in Kaunas (unearthing and cremating the corpses of Jews murdered in the IX Fort during the German occupation, mostly in 1941) . . . here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005 . . .
Leon Wells, The Janowska Road, has a long account of the corpse-disposal squad which burned 1000s of bodies of Jews shot outside Lwow, near the Janowska camp - Wells' account details the work and living conditions of the "death brigade" (120+ prisoners) of which Wells was part and is included in his memoir but based on his diary, which he kept during 1943 when he was in the corpse-disposal unit. The victims were killed in a variety of liquidation actions - victims coming from the Janowska camp, from Lwow and surroundings, and from workplaces in the area where Jews had been doing forced labor. The brigade was under the supervision of the SD, according to Wells, assisted by over 100 German Schupos - as opposed to the main camp where the bulk of the guard troops were Ukrainian "Askaris" (Trawnikis).

After completing work outside the Janowska camp, Well's unit was sent to other sites in the region - to exhume corpses, burn them, grind the bones, collect valuables that had been buried, and clean up and seed the sites.

This is another example of the work of SK1005, the Janowska unit being part of Aktion 1005; Wells' account provides information on the German effacement of evidence of their crimes, with rich description of how such work was carried out.

Interview with Wells

USHMM note on publication of Wells' book

Wells testified at the Eichmann trial and has been bated/mocked on denier websites.
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:35 am

Honestly, a big part of me doesn't want Sanders to win for the sole reason that a Jewish President will feed into all kinds of antisemitic BS on the internet.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:58 am

Monstrous returns after an absence and finds that the Believers are still in vain trying to refute the arguments of Monstrous.

It is all about Monstrous!

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:19 pm

You came back here to make such empty, silly posts?

It's all about keeping threads going with new thoughts about issues raised in them. Which we've done, along with opening new threads as ideas came up. There seem to be any number of ways to show and sources to prove HD claims, including yours, wrong. So will the returned village idiot, er, Monstrous, be addressing the various points which he ignored before fleeing and those points raised in his absence, or will he continue dodging and trying to bring up diversions?
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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:48 pm

Monstrous, you asked or a list of evidence in your idiotic Treblinka thread and were given a massive list. Rather than address it you chose to imitate B-Movie horror villains, copy and paste stupid links, and change the subject after your "transit" evidence was ripped to shreds.

In this thread you have yet to address my refutation of your Crimea theories amongst many, many other topics.

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Re: Monstrous on the Einsatzgruppen

Post by Monstrous » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:64 slave-laborers working in SK1005-B at the IX Fort in Kaunas (unearthing and cremating the corpses of Jews murdered in the IX Fort during the German occupation, mostly in 1941) . . . here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005 . . .
Leon Wells, The Janowska Road, has a long account of the corpse-disposal squad which burned 1000s of bodies of Jews shot outside Lwow, near the Janowska camp - Wells' account details the work and living conditions of the "death brigade" (120+ prisoners) of which Wells was part and is included in his memoir but based on his diary, which he kept during 1943 when he was in the corpse-disposal unit. The victims were killed in a variety of liquidation actions - victims coming from the Janowska camp, from Lwow and surroundings, and from workplaces in the area where Jews had been doing forced labor. The brigade was under the supervision of the SD, according to Wells, assisted by over 100 German Schupos - as opposed to the main camp where the bulk of the guard troops were Ukrainian "Askaris" (Trawnikis).

After completing work outside the Janowska camp, Well's unit was sent to other sites in the region - to exhume corpses, burn them, grind the bones, collect valuables that had been buried, and clean up and seed the sites.

This is another example of the work of SK1005, the Janowska unit being part of Aktion 1005; Wells' account provides information on the German effacement of evidence of their crimes, with rich description of how such work was carried out.

Interview with Wells

USHMM note on publication of Wells' book

Wells testified at the Eichmann trial and has been bated/mocked on denier websites.
SM most be utterly desperate.

Leon Wells has the distinction of being mentioned in the HolyHoax Museum:
http://exposing-the-holocaust-hoax-arch ... -leon.html