Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:42 pm

No eye witness of evidence pertaining to the holocaust exists, who hasn't disqualified him/herself by resorting to lies and exaggerations.

That's my final position and it stands unchallenged.

Which I'll submit, satisfactorily proves that the holocaust has no eye witnesses to the legend. This makes any and all historical study of the matter nothing more substantive than flatulence in a windstorm. Suffice to say, a lifetime of dedication to the bogus cause can be termed a waste of time for those who partake in such buffoonery.

Or so it will stand until the good doctor meets the challenge. I remain, a more informed skeptic!

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:10 pm

This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:46 pm

No 3 of offense 5, page No 2.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:20 pm

Nessie wrote:This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:49 pm

What are the EG's?

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:57 pm

It's English, you wouldn't understand. :pardon:
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:48 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:50 am

montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
Einsatzgruppen, the action squads formed behind the lines to clean up Partisans.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:51 am

LOL

:rotfl:

:lol:

:rotfl:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:51 am

That’s the funniest exchange I’ve seen in a long time!!!!

LOL

:rotfl:
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:03 am

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
Einsatzgruppen, the action squads formed behind the lines to clean up Partisans.
You've gone up in my estimation: helping the feeble-minded is noble.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:30 am

The feeble enfeebling the feeble.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:40 am

Balmoral95 wrote:
VFX wrote:Einsatzgruppen, the action squads formed behind the lines to clean up Partisans.
You've gone up in my estimation: helping the feeble-minded is noble.
Rats, they've really taken the thread off topic - and you reminded me that this one never dealt with my posts about the EGs and what they were up to and this post about Bila Tserkva - not a peep about the points made in these posts.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:The feeble enfeebling the feeble.
. :rotfl:
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:23 am

montgomery wrote:
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
I will quote you an example e.g it is a shortening of eggs, who is an accomplice of bookboy. Being short on many attributes they felt it was noble to shorten the name as well. Very thoughtful indeed.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:38 am

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
I will quote you an example e.g it is a shortening of eggs, who is an accomplice of bookboy. Being short on many attributes they felt it was noble to shorten the name as well. Very thoughtful indeed.
.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:23 am

"EG"

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:54 am

Balmoral95 wrote:"EG"
I.e. and e.g. are both Latin abbreviations. E.g. stands for exempli gratia and means “for example.” I.e. is the abbreviation for id est and means “in other words.” Remember that E is for example (e.g.) and that I and E are the first letters of in essence, an alternative English translation of i.e.Grammarly
Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD
EK: Einsatzkommando

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:49 am

Yes, you're getting there, slowly... I'd work harder on the Latin.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by VFX » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:57 am

Balmoral95 wrote: I'd work harder
Yes do that as freedom comes from work.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:26 am

You guys should try that.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:12 am

scrmbldggs wrote:You guys should try that.
indeed. Some of my best friends , in my party too, are hard working goyim.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:57 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
I will quote you an example e.g it is a shortening of eggs, who is an accomplice of bookboy. Being short on many attributes they felt it was noble to shorten the name as well. Very thoughtful indeed.
What is U.S.A ???
I fu..ing hate shorted names as well!!!

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:58 pm

Hi there Bals :)
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:59 pm

strange double posting in one click!
HI, Stat... still in remission, but getting better. ;)

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:24 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
Einsatzgruppen, the action squads formed behind the lines to clean up Partisans.
Thanks VFX. I think I was told that before but I forgot. New topic you know, with a bit of a learning curve. And probably all for naught because I'm pretty well convinced it's all bogus. I never expected it was so bloody obvious! None of the gas chambers, lobster steaming, lampshades, nuking Jews, or any of it can stand any scrutiny at all by people even slightly more aware that the kooks that started the whole mess. Disgusting!

No wonder all the H.P.'ers are so rude and pissed off all the time. No wonder Darren and the garden slugs can do nothing but post cartoons!

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:26 am

[quote="montgomery"][quote="VFX"][quote="montgomery"][quote="Statistical Mechanic"][quote="Nessie"]This thread is about Wannsee. Have you read the minutes?[/quote]
Wannsee? Does that have anything to do with the EGs?[/quote]

Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:[/quote]
Einsatzgruppen, the action squads formed behind the lines to clean up Partisans.[/quote]

Thanks VFX. I think I was told that before but I forgot. New topic you know, with a bit of a learning curve. And probably all for naught because I'm pretty well convinced it's all bogus. I never expected it was so bloody obvious! None of the gas chambers, lobster steaming, lampshades, nuking Jews, or any of it can stand any scrutiny at all by people even slightly more aware that the kooks that started the whole mess. Disgusting!

No wonder all the H.P.'ers are so rude and pissed off all the time. No wonder Darren and the garden slugs can do nothing but post cartoons![/quote]

The use of gas chambers has been evidenced and proven. The lobster claim is a denier invention, it is unevidenced and it is false. The lampshades and nuclear device were rumours unsupported by any witness or other evidence and have been dismissed as false.

What is notable is that with the lobster claim, deniers have no problem inventing a fiction, whilst at the same time roundly condemning the fictions that were invented at the time. Looks like deniers are as bad as those they condemn for trying to create an inaccurate history of what took place.

Another example of deniers creating an inaccurate history is unfolding at RODOH, where claims are being bandied about that 24,000 people were begin gassed a day at Birkenau (Birkenau Queues thread).

The denier tactic of using false and exaggerated claims should be examined in greater detail and the similarity between it and the Soviets highlighted.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:24 pm

To underscore Nessie's points:

- steam: what our deniers cheerily mock as"lobster steaming" discussed here.
- the "atomic blaster": the discussion of this old denier favorite, judging from the IMT transcript, took a minute or two; the prosecution's implication was slapped back in their face; they dropped the matter - and it never came up again, least of all in any findings of the tribunal - it's a nonissue in terms of findings of guilt and determinations of what the Nazis did
- Buchenwald lampshades: lampshades made of human skin have been dealt with at length, for example, here; they are not relevant to the mass extermination of the Jews, and they did not figure in the IMT's judgment

As Nessie says, deniers cherrypick issues like these, pretend that they are core matters and that there is no other evidence, and mischaracterize and exaggerate them, all to keep people away from the vast amount of evidence of Nazi criminality and for the mass murder of Jews by the Nazis (and allies).
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:39 pm

As a symptom of the deterioration of this forum since the last week in August - as we now see deniers posting their favorite, cherrypicked and long refuted memes wherever they please - this thread on Wannsee has left Wannsee behind and now features one version of montgomery's question about 1940s witnesses along with invocation of such denier memes as "lobster steaming, lampshades, nuking Jews."
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by montgomery » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:37 pm

VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
I will quote you an example e.g it is a shortening of eggs, who is an accomplice of bookboy. Being short on many attributes they felt it was noble to shorten the name as well. Very thoughtful indeed.
Thanks Chief! I'll take that as the meaning from now on. It's so much less complicated! EG's is the root word for eggs, any style.

The latest off-topic: Ricin has been found in parcels sent to the Pentagon.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:40 pm

montgomery wrote:
VFX wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Seriously, what are the EG's? Is that your accomplice's name abbreviated? :oops:
I will quote you an example e.g it is a shortening of eggs, who is an accomplice of bookboy. Being short on many attributes they felt it was noble to shorten the name as well. Very thoughtful indeed.
Thanks Chief! I'll take that as the meaning from now on. It's so much less complicated! EG's is the root word for eggs, any style.

The latest off-topic: Ricin has been found in parcels sent to the Pentagon.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:10 pm

My, we have a lot of guests:
Users browsing this forum: Balmoral95, Magpie [crawler], montgomery and 4 guests

Just sayin.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:51 pm

Getting back to Wannsee, deniers claim Jews were resettled in the east, but that is contradicted by the minutes.

The minutes state; "The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner." The east was to be Germany's means to feed it self, farmer by good German people and those deemed suitable. Not the Jews, so why send the Jews to somewhere that was to be for Germany and cleansed of Jews?

"Estonia - free of Jews". Juden frei was declared about various places, from Luxembourg to Berlin to Estonia. The minutes record populations of Jews in the east as less than pre war, with Estonia (with its admittedly very small Jewish population) now free of any Jews. However, there were Jews who remained in camps in Estonia, used as slave labour.

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)"

In Estonia the Jews worked as slave labour. The largest camp was at Vaivara, where labour was used for timber, quarrying and oil shale. The end for most of them came in 1944, those who had survived the work and typhus were shot and the Soviets found yet another empty camp.

http://www.estonica.org/en/Vaivara_conc ... p_complex/

So, the east was to be land for Germans, free of Jews, who were condemned to work in camps until they died of disease or shot.
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by VFX » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:53 pm

Nessie wrote:
So, the east was to be land for Germans, free of Jews, who were condemned to work in camps until they died of disease or shot.
This says something about the German mentality. Why would they want to go North to the cold. The Russians had it right; they wanted to go South to the warmth.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:02 pm

VFX wrote:
Nessie wrote:
So, the east was to be land for Germans, free of Jews, who were condemned to work in camps until they died of disease or shot.
This says something about the German mentality. Why would they want to go North to the cold. The Russians had it right; they wanted to go South to the warmth.
The furthest north was Estonia, which is around the same latitude as Scotland. Lebensraum was to the east, so why sent Jews to live where the Nazis at Wannsee were declaring as areas to be cleared of all Jews?
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:30 pm

No views on Balsamo's "two final solutions" thesis then?
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balsamo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:34 am

Nessie wrote:Getting back to Wannsee, deniers claim Jews were resettled in the east, but that is contradicted by the minutes.

The minutes state; "The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner." The east was to be Germany's means to feed it self, farmer by good German people and those deemed suitable. Not the Jews, so why send the Jews to somewhere that was to be for Germany and cleansed of Jews?

"Estonia - free of Jews". Juden frei was declared about various places, from Luxembourg to Berlin to Estonia. The minutes record populations of Jews in the east as less than pre war, with Estonia (with its admittedly very small Jewish population) now free of any Jews. However, there were Jews who remained in camps in Estonia, used as slave labour.

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)"

In Estonia the Jews worked as slave labour. The largest camp was at Vaivara, where labour was used for timber, quarrying and oil shale. The end for most of them came in 1944, those who had survived the work and typhus were shot and the Soviets found yet another empty camp.

http://www.estonica.org/en/Vaivara_conc ... p_complex/

So, the east was to be land for Germans, free of Jews, who were condemned to work in camps until they died of disease or shot.

Hi Nessie,
I don't know if you did but you might want to read the first three pages of this thread.
I personally don't see the contradiction you seem to observe, as when the Nazis spoke about sending the Jews to the East, in no way they meant to let them living even as sub-citizens in the newly conquered territory.
The term "Judenfrei" was sometime used even when no killing took place, as in Denmark.
Of course in the East, things were different, but until later in 1942, there was still an eventual idea of a Eastern Reservation for the Jews, preferably beyond the Urals, and in the most inhospitable place possible. But this idea required a military victory which of course never materialized.

The plan to "colonize" the conquered territories with German settlers was even more hypothetical, even though small attempts were made in the Ukraine at some point. IIRC.

To rebound on your example of Estonia, it is the fact that the Jewish presence had been neutralized, whether by murders or by incarceration in labor camps which they were not to be released from, was enough to declare the zone "Judenfrei", even if this declaration came from zealous and overoptimistic local authorities.
I remember Werner Best writing a report proudly calling Denmark "judenfrei" even when he kind of let the Danish Jews actually flee to Sweden, with only a few (53 i think) deported to Theresienstadt.

VRX:
This says something about the German mentality. Why would they want to go North to the cold. The Russians had it right; they wanted to go South to the warmth.
You might want to check the location of the territories that were possessions of the Teutonic Order...
One of the strategic objective was the control over the Baltic see. But then it does not mean that Ukraine was the most vital objective to secure the Reich's and Continental Europe chronic food problems, then of course, they wanted all of it, as the only way to finally get rid of the Jewish Bolshevik threat, as well as getting all the rich natural resource held by the USSR.

Statmec:
No views on Balsamo's "two final solutions" thesis then?
I am still convinced that i fail to explain what this theory actually is.
So a brief summary for Nessie, with the hope that Statmec will forgive this repeat.
It is based on the fact that since 1939, the whole German government bureaucracy was working hard in accordance with the mission given to them by Goering. This mission "de facto" because of the local character of those ministries authority only concerned the Jews from the Greater German Reich.
This Final Solution, as it was already called in 1939, was indeed based on a "legalist" approach, that is using laws to achieve a perfect ethnic cleansing of the GGR, with a shift that deportation/evacuation had to replace emigration meant as impracticable during war times.
Already earlier around september 41 (more or less) there had been "legalistic" debates on how to participated to the shift of policy. One of the result was the measure stating that every Jews who would leave the Reich, whatever the reason, so cynically even through "evacuation" and "deportation" would lose what was left of his German citizenship, and his properties confiscated.
Still, the aim remained, in my theory, the same that is making the Greater Reich free of Jews.
What would happen to the Jews once outside the Reich was not part of their mission, not of their concerns or even business. Once "evacuated to the East" it was clear that they would fell under the sole responsibility of the RSHA.
What is important here is that this agreement between the various ministries and the RSHA was a DONE THING already in 1941, which allowed the first "evacuation of German Jews" to the East.
At no time of course during those negotiation Murder was mentioned as an outcome for the evacuated Jews.
This is what i mean by the "original final solution", a reformed version of the one defined by Goering in 1939. The difference was in the objective. This original version of the Final Solution was different because of its primarily objectives: Making the Greater Reich free of Jews.

What i call the "second Final Solution" which i maybe should have called the "Final Solution bis" concerns essentially what to do with the Jews once they arrived in the East - i defined the East at length as the center of the executive powers held by Himmler and the RSHA. It was not of the concerns of any other bureaucracy that Himmler's in direct contact with Hitler. To develop this Solution Himmler only had to deal with the local Nazi authorities like Gauleiter Forster or Arthur Greiser, Hans Frank, and of course Rosenberg's ministry.
Those actors, that is those involved with what will become recognized as the only Final Solution, will indeed decide for Genocide and mass murder as the mean to reach the Solution, and on a European Scale if possible.

So when i speak about two Final Solution, i should have called them parallel, what i mean it was the second never actually replaced the original one, but complemented it, in that the second took care of the conclusion of the whole operation.

My theory assumes that the whole process was efficient BECAUSE the two coexisted and because the ones in charge with collaborating in the deportations of the European Jews were not told of what the RSHA had conceived as THE Solution: direct or delayed (through labor) mass murder, or Genocide, at least for a while, but certainly not at Wannsee in January 1942, for some important actors the full knowledge of the whole final solution will have to wait for Himmler Posen speeches at the end of 1943.


This is what Brayard's work is about, and i think i can say that it is also in that direction that lean Bloxham, even though in a different way.

Now, i am still too weak to do it properly, but my next thread will try to present Bloxham's approach, which i mostly support, for one simple reason: we actually come from the same background. I ended up researching the Holocaust as a final terminus of research dedicated to Nationalism and political violence in Eastern Europe which was my field as a post-graduated or whatever you call this stage.
But that will take some times as it is a very complex issue.

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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:45 am

Balsamo wrote:Statmec:
No views on Balsamo's "two final solutions" thesis then?
I am still convinced that i fail to explain what this theory actually is.
So a brief summary for Nessie, with the hope that Statmec will forgive this repeat.
Forgiven. I practically asked for it! LOL (I did find the posts a little odd here, as though this thread hadn't ever happened ... )
Balsamo wrote:Now, i am still too weak to do it properly,
Take care, our friend, I had thought you were joking earlier!
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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:17 am


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Re: Yet another Wannsee thread (with Brayard)

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:38 am

Balsamo wrote:
Nessie wrote:Getting back to Wannsee, deniers claim Jews were resettled in the east, but that is contradicted by the minutes.

The minutes state; "The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner." The east was to be Germany's means to feed it self, farmer by good German people and those deemed suitable. Not the Jews, so why send the Jews to somewhere that was to be for Germany and cleansed of Jews?

"Estonia - free of Jews". Juden frei was declared about various places, from Luxembourg to Berlin to Estonia. The minutes record populations of Jews in the east as less than pre war, with Estonia (with its admittedly very small Jewish population) now free of any Jews. However, there were Jews who remained in camps in Estonia, used as slave labour.

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)"

In Estonia the Jews worked as slave labour. The largest camp was at Vaivara, where labour was used for timber, quarrying and oil shale. The end for most of them came in 1944, those who had survived the work and typhus were shot and the Soviets found yet another empty camp.

http://www.estonica.org/en/Vaivara_conc ... p_complex/

So, the east was to be land for Germans, free of Jews, who were condemned to work in camps until they died of disease or shot.

Hi Nessie,
I don't know if you did but you might want to read the first three pages of this thread.
I personally don't see the contradiction you seem to observe, as when the Nazis spoke about sending the Jews to the East, in no way they meant to let them living even as sub-citizens in the newly conquered territory.
The term "Judenfrei" was sometime used even when no killing took place, as in Denmark.
Of course in the East, things were different, but until later in 1942, there was still an eventual idea of a Eastern Reservation for the Jews, preferably beyond the Urals, and in the most inhospitable place possible. But this idea required a military victory which of course never materialized.

The plan to "colonize" the conquered territories with German settlers was even more hypothetical, even though small attempts were made in the Ukraine at some point. IIRC.

To rebound on your example of Estonia, it is the fact that the Jewish presence had been neutralized, whether by murders or by incarceration in labor camps which they were not to be released from, was enough to declare the zone "Judenfrei", even if this declaration came from zealous and overoptimistic local authorities.
I remember Werner Best writing a report proudly calling Denmark "judenfrei" even when he kind of let the Danish Jews actually flee to Sweden, with only a few (53 i think) deported to Theresienstadt.

....
When you said "when the Nazis spoke about sending the Jews to the East, in no way they meant to let them living even as sub-citizens in the newly conquered territory" that was the point I was making. Deniers like to quote Korherr to back up the claim the Jews were actually being resettled. I think the Wannsee Minutes show that cannot have been so as the plan was to clear Nazi occupied territory of Jews.
Statmec:
No views on Balsamo's "two final solutions" thesis then?
I am still convinced that i fail to explain what this theory actually is.
So a brief summary for Nessie, with the hope that Statmec will forgive this repeat.
It is based on the fact that since 1939, the whole German government bureaucracy was working hard in accordance with the mission given to them by Goering. This mission "de facto" because of the local character of those ministries authority only concerned the Jews from the Greater German Reich.
This Final Solution, as it was already called in 1939, was indeed based on a "legalist" approach, that is using laws to achieve a perfect ethnic cleansing of the GGR, with a shift that deportation/evacuation had to replace emigration meant as impracticable during war times.
Already earlier around september 41 (more or less) there had been "legalistic" debates on how to participated to the shift of policy. One of the result was the measure stating that every Jews who would leave the Reich, whatever the reason, so cynically even through "evacuation" and "deportation" would lose what was left of his German citizenship, and his properties confiscated.
Still, the aim remained, in my theory, the same that is making the Greater Reich free of Jews.
What would happen to the Jews once outside the Reich was not part of their mission, not of their concerns or even business. Once "evacuated to the East" it was clear that they would fell under the sole responsibility of the RSHA.
What is important here is that this agreement between the various ministries and the RSHA was a DONE THING already in 1941, which allowed the first "evacuation of German Jews" to the East.
At no time of course during those negotiation Murder was mentioned as an outcome for the evacuated Jews.
This is what i mean by the "original final solution", a reformed version of the one defined by Goering in 1939. The difference was in the objective. This original version of the Final Solution was different because of its primarily objectives: Making the Greater Reich free of Jews.

What i call the "second Final Solution" which i maybe should have called the "Final Solution bis" concerns essentially what to do with the Jews once they arrived in the East - i defined the East at length as the center of the executive powers held by Himmler and the RSHA. It was not of the concerns of any other bureaucracy that Himmler's in direct contact with Hitler. To develop this Solution Himmler only had to deal with the local Nazi authorities like Gauleiter Forster or Arthur Greiser, Hans Frank, and of course Rosenberg's ministry.
Those actors, that is those involved with what will become recognized as the only Final Solution, will indeed decide for Genocide and mass murder as the mean to reach the Solution, and on a European Scale if possible.

So when i speak about two Final Solution, i should have called them parallel, what i mean it was the second never actually replaced the original one, but complemented it, in that the second took care of the conclusion of the whole operation.

My theory assumes that the whole process was efficient BECAUSE the two coexisted and because the ones in charge with collaborating in the deportations of the European Jews were not told of what the RSHA had conceived as THE Solution: direct or delayed (through labor) mass murder, or Genocide, at least for a while, but certainly not at Wannsee in January 1942, for some important actors the full knowledge of the whole final solution will have to wait for Himmler Posen speeches at the end of 1943.


This is what Brayard's work is about, and i think i can say that it is also in that direction that lean Bloxham, even though in a different way.

Now, i am still too weak to do it properly, but my next thread will try to present Bloxham's approach, which i mostly support, for one simple reason: we actually come from the same background. I ended up researching the Holocaust as a final terminus of research dedicated to Nationalism and political violence in Eastern Europe which was my field as a post-graduated or whatever you call this stage.
But that will take some times as it is a very complex issue.
I agree with you and would say that there was two Final Solutions, with each one being able to be sub divided even further. Some means to get rid of the Jews were planned and others were ad hoc. I think that the remarkable escape of the Danish Jews and that no Nazi was even punished for the loss of a load of potential valuable to the Reich slave labour shows that anything was allowed when it came to the Final Solution.

I think deniers get confused because "Final Solution" suggests ONE solution and it is FINAL! The kind of thing a dictator would demand, my way or the highway! No deviation. Whereas only the target was set, get rid of the Jews, but use them for slave labour meantime. The rest was up to local commanders and they were feeding back to senior Nazis such as Heydrich. Wannsee was a monitoring group, it was not issuing orders as to what the local commanders were to do next.
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