What is it that deniers deny?

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David
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by David » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:18 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:Mary Q Contrary,
Yet, I don't see how proving or disproving minor historical grievances regarding numbers matters to history or reality unless you have some intrinsic motive to harm the Jewish community for some reason. Whether 6 million Jews or only 4 million is the 'correct' number, what the hell does this matter? I understand Revisionists on the Holocaust base their apparent concern with such an irrelevant appeal on the basis that the winners of wars create.
Hello Scott-

At the start I would disagree that not believing in the "Holocaust" harms the Jewish community or anyone else
The horrible tales of making soap out of people and demonic images of throwing babies into burning pits
actually screw up peoples' heads, pushing a reasonable wariness of anti-Semitism into paranoia.
Bibi Netanyahu and his fear/hatred of the Iranians seems to be an example. I have seen many other examples in
individuals I know, guns kept under beds ready to shoot mobs of attacking skinheads/zombies.

I think that the Holocaust Story is a sick, twisted horrible Story. I was very happy when the figures of
dead at majdanek were dropped by 300,000 (and surprised at how angry many Believers got) I look at it
just like learning that the numbers of deaths in a plane crash is lower.

I also disagree that the Holocaust is a minor historical issue. In school we are actually taught that it is a major event
in history.

The "Holocaust" is the supposed to be an intentional crime.
Believers like Goldhagen paint a demonic portrait of the Germans delighting in torturing Jews.

I personally believe that the German government had a policy which, while almost always anti-Semitic,
varied from country to country and time to time. German policy toward Jews and Poles who settled on
land taken from Germans in 1919 were brutally booted. French-Jewish citizens had a very low deportation
rate of around 5% (although Believers are continually trying to challenge the numbers.)
However, it did not include murder. That, to me, is a significant difference.

Secondly, I think that the numbers of deaths are lower than 4 million.
I also think that 2 or 3 million people being not killed, is a significant fact, in its own right.
It is worth getting right. And it definitely should NOT be a crime to discuss it.

It is clear to me that there was significant exaggeration of real tragedies and the creation of outright lies
as part of a propaganda campaign-
I find it dangerous when the government can outright lie to us....take weapons of mass destruction and Iraq
or the Tonkin Gulf Incident as examples which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousand of people (most not American)


I also get very irritated when I am told that I must believe something which is obviously a lie.
A example is being told for years that the Germans destroyed "all evidence" of Treblinka.
It turns out to be a lie.
It turns out that Soviet photographs and aerial photographs show they left buildings, rail tracks, fences,
garbage pits, and human remains of 2-3 thousand people.

The Soviets and Poles destroyed all the evidence and blamed it on the Germans.
Believers don't even fess-up to the facts.

Thank you for your questions

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
David, the insane holocaust denier wrote:Nuts as in quoting an official study of persecution of Gays in Wartime Holland?
The major change during the German occupation was the introduction of the German anti-gay paragraph 175 in the Netherlands. The law forbade sexual intimacies between men of all ages.

David? Do you think the Nazis should have persecuted Dutch homosexuals or that was wrong? You haven't actually said it was wrong yet.
:D
. . . Don't confuse persecution with extermination.
Useless advice.
Not for Matty.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:14 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Useless advice.
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:Not for Matty.
Mary Mary Mary,.... should I accept "your advice" from the UFO thread where you say you accept the holocaust is real, or "your advice" in this thread when you revert to denying the holocaust?

Should I accept "your advice" that Aliens are real, because you faked the evidence you posted in that thread, or should I accept "your advice" in this thread when you posted photos of Treblinka I and thought it was Treblinka II?
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:39 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
I didn't answer that question because you didn't ask it.
Nor did I say I'd asked it. I said you sidestepped the real implication of Rollo the ganger's question. And then I asked my follow-up.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If that's the real issue you should have asked that question first.
Actually, I was trying to find out what readers here make of Rollo the ganger's way of putting things. I couldn't help noticing that you left a lot unanswered when you made a response.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:But, yes,
Now, that wasn't all that hard, was it?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Nazis and their allies intentionally murdered Jews. I don't know how many and the circumstances are too numerous to go into. But your poorly worded question sidesteps the real real issue.
It was Rollo the ganger's poor wording. Do you have any idea how many Jews were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war? Rough order of magnitude - there's a big difference between 5,000 and several million.
I have no idea. How many Jews do you think were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Do you believe that every Jew who was killed during the war was intentionally murdered?
No. We went over this same ground at AHF.
How many were not intentionally murdered? How were the ones who weren't intentionally murdered killed?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:To see how inane your question is, try answering my question: How do believers believe the Holocaust is defined and what is that that they believe?
I don't know what a Holocaust believer is,
And I don't know what a Holocaust Denier is.
but I have of course thought about how the Holocaust has been defined. As you know, various people and groups have given definitions of the Holocaust. Some of them were shared with you over at AHF, which is how you know this. None is definitive but the attempts help frame discussions and provoke clarifying debate. E.g., some define the Holocaust broadly including the extermination of the Roma or T-4 killings; others focus their definition on the extermination of the Jews by Germany and allies during the war time. Unlike the responses you and David have given on this thread, such responses are useful.
You expect us to have a single unified definition so you must do so as well. Tell us what YOU think the Holocaust is and we'll use that definition as everybody's definition.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:47 am

Mary Q Contrary the holocaust denier wrote:I have no idea. How many Jews do you think were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war?
Mary Q Contrary the holocaust denier wrote:And I don't know what a Holocaust Denier is.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:45 am

the Holocaust: exterminatory or decimatory policies, actions, and mesures directed against Jews by Nazi Germany and it's allies in WWII. These include ghettoization, the EZG killings, and mass gassings of nonworking Jews in the Globocnik camps and the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp system, as well as deaths as a result of terrible conditions during slave labor in the KL camps, and other labor camps in Germany proper, Poland, and Russia.

So there.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:51 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: He was a member of the gay resistance and he bombed a government building but he was arrested, tried, convicted and executed because he was gay?
Yes Mary, you idiot. That's exactly what happened. Did you read why he bombed the registry?

Why are you so stupid?
:D
Did he do it because he was gay? If he had happened to be Jewish, would he have been executed because he was Jewish and not because he was a violent terrorist? What if he were Jewish AND gay AND blew up government buildings? Would he be a victim of the Holocaust, the Homocaust, or a criminal justice system that punishes terrorists?
He was a freedom fighter. He was rebelling against the violent and illegal occupation of his country by the racist, bigoted Germans. He was a patriot.
So was Osama bin Laden. He was rebelling against the violent and illegal occupation of his host country by the racist, bigoted infidel Soviets. He was a patriot. Later he took his war abroad against the infidel Americans. So when the USA murdered him, did they do so as part of their plan to exterminate all the Arabs?
Osama was not from Afghanistan, you Dolt. His actions against the USA were fueled by hatred and religious bigotry and constitute terrorism.

The individual in question was a Dutch patriot who's country was being overtaken by a vile fascist regime.

Do you consider Leonid Kangesser a terrorist? He was a Jewish Russian Army Officer who was outraged by the October Revolution. He assassinated Moisie Uritsky, the feared Secret Police Chief of Petrograd.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Scott Mayers » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:03 am

Thank you David. I follow your concern as you explained in response. I also understand some of Mary's responses following. It helps to understand your perspectives. The readers into your positions require relating to motive beyond simply truth for truth's sake and you've provided some beyond this issue. I believe that deniers are based on what Jeff defines "Holocaust" above. As such, you both don't appear to be 'deniers'. But it might be more helpful to not take offence upon those who may amplify the particular historical data for credulity to the concern even if you may be correct. I too agree to accuracy in truth yet it can affect people in bad ways if we don't learn to be cautious and diplomatic to our approach and context. If your spouse asks you whether she/he looks fat in their outfits, we sometimes have to recognize that the particular question is in context not often literal. For a spouse who might be asking when you already 'know' they've struggled with this culturally, they already 'know' the answer to the literal question and don't actually NEED you to confirm it one way or the other because they are actually testing "how" you respond to determine a more internally hidden question: Is this person still in love with me regardless of how I actually look?

With regards to a Jew who may be potentially hearing of one question ANY details of the Holocaust, with many who are still alive who have experienced this, they'll reasonably be seeking "how" people respond with more interest than simply the facts alone. I still agree that certain things like the details should still be rightfully questioned, but you have to find a forum (or a non-emotionally laden area within such forums) that don't place you in context to those most emotionally affected. This is why I believe this particular section is best to be incorporated as a function of other generalized topics. It pre-defines the context of others and can insult others. I know this as even my hypothetical question to suggest this area as having a potential impression of being staged to keep the controversy alive affected Statistical Mechanic because it would be like if in response to my spouse asking me if she was fat, I responded with, "It looks like you're begging for my approval. What do you want me to say? I'm uncomfortable with you even asking me." While this could be an honest answer and expressive of having provided no real answer, I would only disappoint her as she would interpret me as calling her out as a potential fraud instead. She might agree to what I say but would all of a sudden not know how to determine how to ask directly without coming across awkward. "Okay," she might say, "I'm asking you whether you still love me unconditionally? But now that I have to ask this, I can already predict you'll say that you do which defeats the reasoning I approached you indirectly. So never mind."

...."Unless, that is, you've got something to tell me?"
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:05 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . Do you have any idea how many Jews were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war? Rough order of magnitude - there's a big difference between 5,000 and several million.
I have no idea.
Well, we'll be sure not to listen to you on the subject then.

I've got to add that having been subjected to your lame wise-cracking for a few years, I'm not at all surprised to hear that even you've realized you're clueless.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many Jews do you think were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war?
OP, you moron.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many were not intentionally murdered? How were the ones who weren't intentionally murdered killed?
Not going to repeat an old discussion here.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And I don't know what a Holocaust Denier is.
Ok, you have nothing to offer. This thread started out with your old definition - you used the formula gas/plan/six - and following Rollo the ganger I used six/gas/plan, so maybe this fooled you.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You expect us to have a single unified definition so you must do so as well. Tell us what YOU think the Holocaust is and we'll use that definition as everybody's definition.
I do? My point in the OP and what I've been asking is rather different to expecting you lot to have a single or unified definition. But it seems, accepting that "you" are a lot of some sort, that you actually do have a notion of what a Holocaust Denier is.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:35 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Useless advice.
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:Not for Matty.
Mary Mary Mary,.... should I accept "your advice" from the UFO thread where you say you accept the holocaust is real, or "your advice" in this thread when you revert to denying the holocaust?
I've never denied the Holocaust. Here or anywhere else. If it appears as though I do it's because you have a very limited definition of the Holocaust.
Should I accept "your advice" that Aliens are real, because you faked the evidence you posted in that thread, or should I accept "your advice" in this thread when you posted photos of Treblinka I and thought it was Treblinka II?
SgtShultz.jpg
You should accept the fact that Aliens are real because the quality and type of evidence proving Aliens is of the same quality and type of evidence that prove the gas chambers and massive burial pits. I didn't fake any evidence in the UFO thread. I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO. Because I have tagged the photos I have of human cremains at Treblinka and the photos I have of carbonized vegetation remaining after a Alien spacecraft has blasted off as "ash" I inadvertently uploaded a picture of the physical evidence that remained at Treblinka as a picture of the physical evidence that remained after a UFO encounter. Once, maybe twice, I quoted Kurt Gerstein and his estimate of how many people fit in a gas chamber as one of the most important witnesses for the number of people taken aboard a UFO.

I realized the error of my ways when the sperm extraction story given by a Jewish eyewitness to the Holocaust was derided as ridiculous; when, I believe, it was Gawdzilla Sama who dismissed my picture of human cremains at Treblinka as 'dirt, we have it here on Earth' or something to that effect; and when Poodle said that my eyewitness who estimated an average of 2.5 people were packed inside a UFO couldn't be believed because that body density was ludicrously impossible. I know that Monster, TJRandom, jeez...just about everybody told me that having a bunch of eyewitnesses to physically impossible events (like faster than light travel) doesn't make those events possible. I was told that people tell the same basic story about a UFO encounter because they heard a story from a previous eyewitness--even when there's no proof that they heard the story before--and not because the eyewitness is telling the God honest truth. I was even told that memory degrades over time and so a bunch of eyewitnesses who saw a UFO back in 1943-45 but don't start talking about it until the 1990s should be ridiculed rather than believed.

So, no, I don't fake evidence...like you do when making up Leonard Nimoy quotes. I get confused and sometimes mix-up UFO evidence and Holocaust evidence. I'm working on correcting that.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . Do you have any idea how many Jews were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war? Rough order of magnitude - there's a big difference between 5,000 and several million.
I have no idea.
Well, we'll be sure not to listen to you on the subject then.

I've got to add that having been subjected to your lame wise-cracking for a few years, I'm not at all surprised to hear that even you've realized you're clueless.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many Jews do you think were intentionally killed by the Germans during the war?
OP, you moron.
OK. you're going to go with the low five million.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many were not intentionally murdered? How were the ones who weren't intentionally murdered killed?
Not going to repeat an old discussion here.
Then link to the old discussion or just tell us. Maybe people here don't remember the old discussion. I don't. Just give a rough order of magnitude - theres a difference between 5,000 and several million. Or so I have been told.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And I don't know what a Holocaust Denier is.
Ok, you have nothing to offer. This thread started out with your old definition - you used the formula gas/plan/six - and following Rollo the ganger I used six/gas/plan, so maybe this fooled you.
No, this thread has nothing to offer.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I don't know what a Holocaust believer is, but I have of course thought about how the Holocaust has been defined. As you know, various people and groups have given definitions of the Holocaust. Some of them were shared with you over at AHF, which is how you know this. None is definitive but the attempts help frame discussions and provoke clarifying debate. E.g., some define the Holocaust broadly including the extermination of the Roma or T-4 killings; others focus their definition on the extermination of the Jews by Germany and allies during the war time. Unlike the responses you and David have given on this thread, such responses are useful.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You expect us to have a single unified definition so you must do so as well. Tell us what YOU think the Holocaust is and we'll use that definition as everybody's definition.
I do? My point in the OP and what I've been asking is rather different to expecting you lot to have a single or unified definition. But it seems, accepting that "you" are a lot of some sort, that you actually do have a notion of what a Holocaust Denier is.
What do you want? A definition of the Holocaust or of a Holocaust Denier? As I've said, I don't know what a Holocaust Denier is.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:55 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Must've been a typo.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:02 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:the Holocaust: exterminatory or decimatory policies, actions, and mesures directed against Jews by Nazi Germany and it's allies in WWII. These include ghettoization, the EZG killings, and mass gassings of nonworking Jews in the Globocnik camps and the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp system, as well as deaths as a result of terrible conditions during slave labor in the KL camps, and other labor camps in Germany proper, Poland, and Russia.

So there.
And if there were no gas chambers, none of the other stuff happened, right? Or is somebody who says the evidence for the gas chambers is extraordinary weak a Holocaust Denier?
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:03 pm

If you don't know what a Holocaust denier is, and don't know what HD is, why on earth are you posting in this thread, which is about what deniers deny? Especially when you say it has nothing to offer? What odd behavior. In any event, the issue of reducing denial to six/gas/plan - and declaring the rest nonsense - was raised by Rollo the ganger, a denier, whose claim nearly matched what you'd written in AHF, so I mentioned that. And, no, I 'm not now "going to go with" a Holocaust death toll in the low 5 millions - I've said it for years, and to you too. And I said it in the OP, for crissakes. As to what I want, that's explained in the OP, too, which you seem not to have read.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:04 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Or is somebody who says the evidence for the gas chambers is extraordinary weak a Holocaust Denier?
well, that is the question for anyone with the courage of her convictions to explain to us . . . but I understand you lack such courage and are not a denier, so I'm not asking you . . . run along, now . . .
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:10 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: He was a member of the gay resistance and he bombed a government building but he was arrested, tried, convicted and executed because he was gay?
Yes Mary, you idiot. That's exactly what happened. Did you read why he bombed the registry?

Why are you so stupid?
:D
Did he do it because he was gay? If he had happened to be Jewish, would he have been executed because he was Jewish and not because he was a violent terrorist? What if he were Jewish AND gay AND blew up government buildings? Would he be a victim of the Holocaust, the Homocaust, or a criminal justice system that punishes terrorists?
He was a freedom fighter. He was rebelling against the violent and illegal occupation of his country by the racist, bigoted Germans. He was a patriot.
So was Osama bin Laden. He was rebelling against the violent and illegal occupation of his host country by the racist, bigoted infidel Soviets. He was a patriot. Later he took his war abroad against the infidel Americans. So when the USA murdered him, did they do so as part of their plan to exterminate all the Arabs?
Osama was not from Afghanistan, you Dolt. His actions against the USA were fueled by hatred and religious bigotry and constitute terrorism.
That's why I said host country, moron.
The individual in question was a Dutch patriot who's country was being overtaken by a vile fascist regime.
Not important. Matthew Ellard said the individual in question wasn't murdered because he was a Dutch patriot. He wasn't murdered because he blew up a government office. He was murdered because he was gay. Do you believe the Nazis killed him because he was gay?
Do you consider Leonid Kangesser a terrorist? He was a Jewish Russian Army Officer who was outraged by the October Revolution. He assassinated Moisie Uritsky, the feared Secret Police Chief of Petrograd.
If Leo was part of the Russian assault on Nazi Germany, then he was a vile slimy terrorist barbarian.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:11 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Must've been a typo.
Ah, I see. A minor mistake. Like equating tales of UFOs from outer space and Alien abductions with well-documented history.


Okay then...
.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:37 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Must've been a typo.
Ah, I see. A minor mistake. Like equating tales of UFOs from outer space and Alien abductions with well-documented history.


Okay then...
Not a mistake. A typo. A typo that really made no difference at all. If somebody says 2.5 people cannot fit into a square foot and dismisses an eyewitness who says they saw this being done, it doesn't matter if the 2.5 people are being crushed into a UFO or a gas chamber. They're still going to say the eyewitness is unreliable.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 18, 2015 9:30 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Must've been a typo.
Ah, I see. A minor mistake. Like equating tales of UFOs from outer space and Alien abductions with well-documented history.


Okay then...
Not a mistake. A typo. A typo that really made no difference at all. If somebody says 2.5 people cannot fit into a square foot and dismisses an eyewitness who says they saw this being done, it doesn't matter if the 2.5 people are being crushed into a UFO or a gas chamber. They're still going to say the eyewitness is unreliable.
Hmm, looking at your other post: "...when Poodle said that my eyewitness who estimated an average of 2.5 people were packed inside a UFO because that body density was ludicrously impossible...", I imagine he meant something else was ludicrous and/or impossible.
.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Poodle » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:05 pm

Hmmm ... just noticed this. It seems I have to remind Mary that he quoted that density of bodies at the same time as saying that his 'abductee' was moving around freely, which is patently ridiculous. Given the cross-sectional area of the human chest, 2.5 people per square foot for any length of time is not a survivable situation in any circumstances. Free movement under those circumstances is a fairy story.

Sorry to intrude on this part of the forum, but BS need to be got at no matter where they occur - even though the original argument was in the UFO section.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:34 pm

That, and, true to form, Mary likes to cherry pick what suits her nonsense.

"... It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport ..."


Why didn't you let on that there were three pods in the mothership, Mary?
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_trebcad.html wrote:
Gas chamber - Size:
a) “There were three gas chambers, each 4 x 4 m and 2.6 m high, similar to the first gas chamber constructed in Sobibor.” (Arad, p.42)
(The above repeated almost word for word in Kogon, p.115)
b) “A gas chamber measured 5 x 5 m and was about 1.90 m high.” (Wiernik, Donat, p.157)
c) “The old gas chamber building contained 3 chambers, each measuring about 20 m2.” (Rum statement, p.495)
d) Size indicated, 4 m (being the corridor side wall) x 5 m. (Jurowski plan)
e) “... 3 gas chambers, each about 5 x 5 m." (Glazar, p.37)
.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:30 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:the Holocaust: exterminatory or decimatory policies, actions, and mesures directed against Jews by Nazi Germany and it's allies in WWII. These include ghettoization, the EZG killings, and mass gassings of nonworking Jews in the Globocnik camps and the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp system, as well as deaths as a result of terrible conditions during slave labor in the KL camps, and other labor camps in Germany proper, Poland, and Russia.

So there.
And if there were no gas chambers, none of the other stuff happened, right? Or is somebody who says the evidence for the gas chambers is extraordinary weak a Holocaust Denier?
Yes, especially when that same a-hole, contradicting him/herself right and left, declares testimonies about EG shootings of Jews worthless drivel, alleges that EG mass shootings of Jews and liquidation of Jewish communities were only anti-partisan operations, claims that there’s no evidence that the EG anti-Jewish actions were state policy, tries making out the EG killings were a local rogue operation, and says that Jews in the Baltics were not exterminated but merely removed - to somewhere - pursuant to a policy of ethnic cleansing.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:57 am

Poodle wrote:Hmmm ... just noticed this. It seems I have to remind Mary that he quoted that density of bodies at the same time as saying that his 'abductee' was moving around freely, which is patently ridiculous. Given the cross-sectional area of the human chest, 2.5 people per square foot for any length of time is not a survivable situation in any circumstances. Free movement under those circumstances is a fairy story.

Sorry to intrude on this part of the forum, but BS need to be got at no matter where they occur - even though the original argument was in the UFO section.
No, there was no mention of free movement. I didn't mention free movement and neither did you. You can look at the original conversation to see that.

You might be mixing up the eyewitness I quoted who saw 2.5 (actually between 2.6 - 2.9) people crammed aboard a UFO and a different eyewitness who was pushed out of a UFO by several naked girls in the full bloom of youth. Those are two completely different eyewitnesses describing two different situations. The man who saw an average 2.6 people per square foot crammed aboard a UFO didn't say anything about free movement. He wasn't inside the ship. He saw the people crammed aboard the UFO and watched them for several hours, timing it with his stopwatch, before they departed. The eyewitness who was man handled by naked pre-teen girls was actually inside the UFO and didn't mention body density.

Are you now going to go on record and say that an average of 2.5 (actually 2.6 - 2.9) people crammed into one square foot of per square foot is plausible as long as they're not expected to move about?
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:59 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Must've been a typo.
Ah, I see. A minor mistake. Like equating tales of UFOs from outer space and Alien abductions with well-documented history.


Okay then...
Not a mistake. A typo. A typo that really made no difference at all. If somebody says 2.5 people cannot fit into a square foot and dismisses an eyewitness who says they saw this being done, it doesn't matter if the 2.5 people are being crushed into a UFO or a gas chamber. They're still going to say the eyewitness is unreliable.
Hmm, looking at your other post: "...when Poodle said that my eyewitness who estimated an average of 2.5 people were packed inside a UFO because that body density was ludicrously impossible...", I imagine he meant something else was ludicrous and/or impossible.
No, he meant the average number of people per square foot is what was ludicrous.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am

scrmbldggs wrote:That, and, true to form, Mary likes to cherry pick what suits her nonsense.

"... It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport ..."


Why didn't you let on that there were three pods in the mothership, Mary?
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_trebcad.html wrote:
Gas chamber - Size:
a) “There were three gas chambers, each 4 x 4 m and 2.6 m high, similar to the first gas chamber constructed in Sobibor.” (Arad, p.42)
(The above repeated almost word for word in Kogon, p.115)
b) “A gas chamber measured 5 x 5 m and was about 1.90 m high.” (Wiernik, Donat, p.157)
c) “The old gas chamber building contained 3 chambers, each measuring about 20 m2.” (Rum statement, p.495)
d) Size indicated, 4 m (being the corridor side wall) x 5 m. (Jurowski plan)
e) “... 3 gas chambers, each about 5 x 5 m." (Glazar, p.37)
ROTFL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Because we're talking about one "pod" only. 5 x 5 meters with 700 - 800 humans inside. Are you taking stupid lessons from Matthew the Magnificent?
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:07 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:the Holocaust: exterminatory or decimatory policies, actions, and mesures directed against Jews by Nazi Germany and it's allies in WWII. These include ghettoization, the EZG killings, and mass gassings of nonworking Jews in the Globocnik camps and the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp system, as well as deaths as a result of terrible conditions during slave labor in the KL camps, and other labor camps in Germany proper, Poland, and Russia.

So there.
And if there were no gas chambers, none of the other stuff happened, right? Or is somebody who says the evidence for the gas chambers is extraordinary weak a Holocaust Denier?
Yes, especially when that same a-hole, contradicting him/herself right and left, declares testimonies about EG shootings of Jews worthless drivel, alleges that EG mass shootings of Jews and liquidation of Jewish communities were only anti-partisan operations, claims that there’s no evidence that the EG anti-Jewish actions were state policy, tries making out the EG killings were a local rogue operation, and says that Jews in the Baltics were not exterminated but merely removed - to somewhere - pursuant to a policy of ethnic cleansing.
OK, we can see you've reduced the Holocaust from gas/plan/six to just gas. Let's see what Jeff says.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by David » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:26 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
With regards to a Jew who may be potentially hearing of one question ANY details of the Holocaust, with many who are still alive who have experienced this, they'll reasonably be seeking "how" people respond with more interest than simply the facts alone. I still agree that certain things like the details should still be rightfully questioned, but you have to find a forum (or a non-emotionally laden area within such forums) that don't place you in context to those most emotionally affected. "
Thank you for your comments- Yes, I can understand that anyone who lost family to the Germans may treat the memory as something
sacred, Poles, French, Russians or Jewish. I can also understand that most Jewish people, even without a feeling of "sacredness" about Holocaust history, know that the National Socialists were anti-Semitic and don't feel any particular need to "clear their name." I don't blame them.

On the other hand, the antics of destroying evidence and clownish and dishonest "investigations" like the one recently performed
by Sturdy-Colls are ridiculous and shameful. I also find the exploitation of the various tragedies for propaganda purposes
disgraceful.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:58 am

Mary Q Contrary the holocaust denier, posted his evidence of a UFO abduction in the UFO thread and wrote:Mr. G,
Place: Captured in Ukraine
Time: 1952.
Testimony recorded: 1997
What I am about to write you have not heard or read before, as follows: I was subjected to medical experiments. The extraterrestrials captured German Shepherd dogs from local animal shelters and introduced them into our holding pens.These dogs had a special poison on their teeth. We had to run [and] the dogs had to chase us. Afterwards the aliens examined our wounds. A doctor ripped the flesh of my legs and examined it. After some time I was able to escape.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 29#p447797
scrmbldggs wrote: Where did you find the altered version, exchanging real people for "Aliens" in that account?
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:Must've been a typo.
Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote:I got confused and submitted some eyewitness accounts of sperm extraction experiments done by the Nazis as having been done by aliens aboard a UFO.
Mary. You are an incredible idiot. You changed the word "Nazi doctor" into "extraterrestrial". Your lies are becoming more and more pathetic.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:43 am

She also picked "Petro's" awkwardly worded description of the estimated capacity of the building and measurement of each chamber wall. Out of I don't know how many others. Probably a favorite one of the typo prone contortionist and another example of how it's done.

And then claims the numbers derived from the initial post came from elsewhere. They sure did:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Poodle wrote:"... It was not too small, square shaped, roughly five meters along each wall. Large enough to hold the seven to eight hundred people who I had seen enter before the last transport ..."

25 square metres for 700 to 800 people? That's 28 to 32 people per square metre. You think that credible?
Of course it's credible. You are probably having difficulty visualizing it because it's the metric system. One square meter is the same as 10.8 square feet. So 28 to 32 people per 10.8 square feet is only 28/10.8 to 32/10.8 which is between 2.6 and 2.9 people per square foot.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 53#p444253

Good job, Mary.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by supervitor » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 am

David wrote:
Scott Mayers wrote:Mary Q Contrary,
Yet, I don't see how proving or disproving minor historical grievances regarding numbers matters to history or reality unless you have some intrinsic motive to harm the Jewish community for some reason. Whether 6 million Jews or only 4 million is the 'correct' number, what the hell does this matter? I understand Revisionists on the Holocaust base their apparent concern with such an irrelevant appeal on the basis that the winners of wars create.
Hello Scott-

At the start I would disagree that not believing in the "Holocaust" harms the Jewish community or anyone else
The horrible tales of making soap out of people and demonic images of throwing babies into burning pits
actually screw up peoples' heads, pushing a reasonable wariness of anti-Semitism into paranoia.
That's what happens when there's anti-semitism, anti-something, in a word, hate. It generates fear: people tell stories. Maybe we should try to tackle the problem there? Avoid the anti feeling? What do you say, David, am I right or am I right?
Bibi Netanyahu and his fear/hatred of the Iranians seems to be an example. I have seen many other examples in
individuals I know, guns kept under beds ready to shoot mobs of attacking skinheads/zombies.
Exactly! Hate and fear are bad feelings, we should not promote them!
I think that the Holocaust Story is a sick, twisted horrible Story. I was very happy when the figures of
dead at majdanek were dropped by 300,000 (and surprised at how angry many Believers got) I look at it
just like learning that the numbers of deaths in a plane crash is lower.
You seem to have a twisted likening into counting dead people.. each one with his own, but still.. come on, man??
I also disagree that the Holocaust is a minor historical issue. In school we are actually taught that it is a major event
in history.
It's not! Why would you even pose that question?
The "Holocaust" is the supposed to be an intentional crime.
It was
Believers like Goldhagen paint a demonic portrait of the Germans delighting in torturing Jews.
"Believers"? what kind of language are you using? You mean people inside the reality? Ok, I'll try to interpret you as you mean. And it shouldn't be "Germans", maybe "Nazis" is more accurate
I personally believe that the German government had a policy which, while almost always anti-Semitic,
ehhhhh... we'll look into this
varied from country to country and time to time. German policy toward Jews and Poles who settled on
land taken from Germans in 1919 were brutally booted.
You mean Nazis again, don't you? Who else would it be, if it was only the Nazis that regain those lands back to Germany?
French-Jewish citizens had a very low deportation
rate of around 5%
hmmmmmmm, are you making stuff up?
(although Believers are continually trying to challenge the numbers.)
However, it did not include murder.
You are making stuff up! I'll give you just one famous example: what do you think happened to Irene Nemirovsky? No deportation there, no murder there..
That, to me, is a significant difference.
Only because you've got your facts wrong!
Secondly, I think that the numbers of deaths are lower than 4 million.
do you? Ok, I get it.. you've gotten into the habit of making up facts. I understand.
I also think that 2 or 3 million people being not killed, is a significant fact, in its own right
.
hehehehehe, that's a stretch of an argument, (beyond the invented fact) Next time you'll say: "The Nazis could have decimated all Europe's population, now that's what I call a significant fact, in its own right!!!"
It is worth getting right. And it definitely should NOT be a crime to discuss it.
I definitely agree with you on this.
It is clear to me that there was significant exaggeration of real tragedies and the creation of outright lies
as part of a propaganda campaign-
You don't present your reasoning, only "what's clear to you". I found that rather unclear
I find it dangerous when the government can outright lie to us....take weapons of mass destruction and Iraq
or the Tonkin Gulf Incident as examples which led to the deaths of hundreds of thousand of people (most not American)
I agree, but that's unrelated, man!! We know about that, it's documented, your 4 million number or whatever it is you're trying to say is only on your mind.
I also get very irritated when I am told that I must believe something which is obviously a lie.
they shouldn't be telling you that, but you should also relax, people tell all sort of silly things. Of course you should choose in what to believe.
A example is being told for years that the Germans destroyed "all evidence" of Treblinka.
It turns out to be a lie.
It turns out that Soviet photographs and aerial photographs show they left buildings, rail tracks, fences,
garbage pits, and human remains of 2-3 thousand people.
Just don't pay so much attention when people tell you lies.
The Soviets and Poles destroyed all the evidence and blamed it on the Germans.
Believers don't even fess-up to the facts.
You're not presenting evidence. You should if you want "Believers" to believe in you. I understand they are "Believers", but I must assume they have some kind of standard, not just hearing about it from "David"
Thank you for your questions
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:18 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:the Holocaust: exterminatory or decimatory policies, actions, and mesures directed against Jews by Nazi Germany and it's allies in WWII. These include ghettoization, the EZG killings, and mass gassings of nonworking Jews in the Globocnik camps and the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp system, as well as deaths as a result of terrible conditions during slave labor in the KL camps, and other labor camps in Germany proper, Poland, and Russia.

So there.
And if there were no gas chambers, none of the other stuff happened, right? Or is somebody who says the evidence for the gas chambers is extraordinary weak a Holocaust Denier?
Yes, especially when that same a-hole, contradicting him/herself right and left, declares testimonies about EG shootings of Jews worthless drivel, alleges that EG mass shootings of Jews and liquidation of Jewish communities were only anti-partisan operations, claims that there’s no evidence that the EG anti-Jewish actions were state policy, tries making out the EG killings were a local rogue operation, and says that Jews in the Baltics were not exterminated but merely removed - to somewhere - pursuant to a policy of ethnic cleansing.
OK, we can see you've reduced the Holocaust from gas/plan/six to just gas. Let's see what Jeff says.
??????

But of course not, I've pointed out that one a-hole promoting gas/plan/six, can't make a coherent statement about the open-air shootings but is determined not to consider them part of the Holocaust. That a-hole denies gas chambers and mass executions by shooting to make territory "Jew-free - despite her simplistic formula. I am sure we will sometime - if you and David can become coherent - get to other facets of what Jeff wrote about, too.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:47 am

supervitor wrote:"Believers"? what kind of language are you using? You mean people inside the reality? Ok, I'll try to interpret you as you mean. And it shouldn't be "Germans", maybe "Nazis" is more accurate
Well, Goldhagen's use of the concept of eliminationist antisemitism, and "finding" that to be part of German identity, isn't restricted to the Nazis and, by design, targets Germans. He's been widely attacked on that basis. Browning (whose arguments Goldhagen was targeting) told him that Hitler's Willing Executioners is
a book of "key hole" history, finding in German history only what he wanted to see and ignoring such powerful and competing cultural forces as Catholicism, Socialism, etc. Goldhagen operated outside of a historical context, according to Browning; he consequently offered a one-dimensional analysis. Goldhagen disregarded, furthermore, the degree of Nazi control of society and the real penalties that existed for speaking out. Browning accused Goldhagen of writing simplistic, Manichean, and "popular" history and concluded with a quote from Primo Levi to the effect that things are never as simple as people would like them to be. Nothing in history is very easy.
An example, given by Browning, is how Goldhagen ignored non-German perpetrators.

More germane to what David is trying to do by "reviving" this widely criticized author is Yehuda Bauer's comment about Hitler's Willing Executioners that
Goldhagen also ran the risk, Bauer continued, of becoming another Arno Mayer after Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? Following a big media splash and a great deal of discussion, Bauer says, Mayer's book has completely and justifiably been forgotten. Mayer's work, he said, is gone and rightly so; no one cites or talks about it anymore. You, he said, turning to Goldhagen, do not want to end up like Arno Mayer. You have started your career the wrong way, he concluded; you do not begin with Public Relations, you end with it.
David's going on about a view that most historians and scholars reject as though it is a central view among scholars.
supervitor wrote:
French-Jewish citizens had a very low deportation rate of around 5%
hmmmmmmm, are you making stuff up?
A good time to shove in David's face his cowardice in fleeing a thread devoted to discussion of his "interpretation" of the Final Solution in France. With his 5%, David's parsing and seemingly justifying deportation of non-French citizens rather than trying to understand how the Final Solution in France unfolded.
supervitor wrote:
A example is being told for years that the Germans destroyed "all evidence" of Treblinka.
It turns out to be a lie.
It turns out that Soviet photographs and aerial photographs show they left buildings, rail tracks, fences,
garbage pits, and human remains of 2-3 thousand people.
Just don't pay so much attention when people tell you lies.
The lie is David's claim that historians and researchers make the general claim that the Germans destroyed all evidence at Treblinka. David will twist a postwar Polish investigation of the site (led by Łukaszkiewicz), for example, which studied human remains and other remnants of the killing left behind. He knows full well by now that Yitzhak Arad wrote in the 1980s of the liquidation of the Treblinka camp that
On the grounds of the former camp there were still sections of barbed wire, some pits, heaps of sand, and all kinds of articles—traces of the terrible tragedy that had occurred there.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by supervitor » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:58 am

Statistical Mechanical wrote: (that is, Holocaust denial) in exactly the same terms discussed above - as the denial of six/gas/plan
six/gas/plan?

hehehe, you guys have your own language..

you're saying that that other guy defined the term as denying the number was 6 million Jews, that there were no gas chambers and that there never was a plan, right?

I liked the detail of "six". So succint.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by supervitor » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:11 am

Ok, I liked your response, you're clearly knowledgeable and careful.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
supervitor wrote:"Believers"? what kind of language are you using? You mean people inside the reality? Ok, I'll try to interpret you as you mean. And it shouldn't be "Germans", maybe "Nazis" is more accurate
Well, Goldhagen's use of the concept of eliminationist antisemitism, and "finding" that to be part of German identity, isn't restricted to the Nazis and, by design, targets Germans. He's been widely attacked on that basis. Browning (whose arguments Goldhagen was targeting) told him that Hitler's Willing Executioners is
a book of "key hole" history, finding in German history only what he wanted to see and ignoring such powerful and competing cultural forces as Catholicism, Socialism, etc. Goldhagen operated outside of a historical context, according to Browning; he consequently offered a one-dimensional analysis. Goldhagen disregarded, furthermore, the degree of Nazi control of society and the real penalties that existed for speaking out. Browning accused Goldhagen of writing simplistic, Manichean, and "popular" history and concluded with a quote from Primo Levi to the effect that things are never as simple as people would like them to be. Nothing in history is very easy.
An example, given by Browning, is how Goldhagen ignored non-German perpetrators.
Browning is clearly right on what he argues. But is he somewhat of a "denialist", or just someone who deals with "denialist literature"? Because if he is, even if only a little bit, using Primo Levi's quote seems like a jerk move.
More germane to what David is trying to do by "reviving" this widely criticized author is Yehuda Bauer's comment about Hitler's Willing Executioners that
Goldhagen also ran the risk, Bauer continued, of becoming another Arno Mayer after Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? Following a big media splash and a great deal of discussion, Bauer says, Mayer's book has completely and justifiably been forgotten. Mayer's work, he said, is gone and rightly so; no one cites or talks about it anymore. You, he said, turning to Goldhagen, do not want to end up like Arno Mayer. You have started your career the wrong way, he concluded; you do not begin with Public Relations, you end with it.
David's going on about a view that most historians and scholars reject as though it is a central view among scholars.
supervitor wrote:
French-Jewish citizens had a very low deportation rate of around 5%
hmmmmmmm, are you making stuff up?
A good time to shove in David's face his cowardice in fleeing a thread devoted to discussion of his "interpretation" of the Final Solution in France. With his 5%, David's parsing and seemingly justifying deportation of non-French citizens rather than trying to understand how the Final Solution in France unfolded.
Yeah, it felt like he was making stuff up
supervitor wrote:
A example is being told for years that the Germans destroyed "all evidence" of Treblinka.
It turns out to be a lie.
It turns out that Soviet photographs and aerial photographs show they left buildings, rail tracks, fences,
garbage pits, and human remains of 2-3 thousand people.
Just don't pay so much attention when people tell you lies.
The lie is David's claim that historians and researchers make the general claim that the Germans destroyed all evidence at Treblinka. David will twist a postwar Polish investigation of the site (led by Łukaszkiewicz), for example, which studied human remains and other remnants of the killing left behind. He knows full well by now that Yitzhak Arad wrote in the 1980s of the liquidation of the Treblinka camp that
On the grounds of the former camp there were still sections of barbed wire, some pits, heaps of sand, and all kinds of articles—traces of the terrible tragedy that had occurred there.
[/quote]
Yes, I wasn't sure about that claim that the Germans had or not "hidden" everything, but we know treblinka was an extermination camp.

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:13 am

supervitor wrote:
Statistical Mechanical wrote: (that is, Holocaust denial) in exactly the same terms discussed above - as the denial of six/gas/plan
six/gas/plan?

hehehe, you guys have your own language..
The formula is explained in the OP. It is not shared by "us guys."
supervitor wrote:you're saying that that other guy defined the term as denying the number was 6 million Jews, that there were no gas chambers and that there never was a plan, right?

I liked the detail of "six". So succint.
Sort of. The OP explains that, yes, Rollo the ganger, a denier at RODOH, and Mary Q Contrary have both sought to explain their views as follows: denial that 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust, denial that the Nazis exterminated Jews in gas chambers, and denial that the Nazis had a master plan for extermination of Europe's Jews. The corollary for Rollo the ganger is that other arguments made by deniers are "nonsense." (In my opinion, Rollo the ganger realizes that the deep views of Holocaust deniers are an embarrassment and is trying to "cut away" some of that; sadly, his six/gas/plan is equally an embarrassment!)

So, e.g., of the death toll in the Holocaust, on which by the way, I follow Hilberg (about 5.1 million, not 6 million), about half the victims perished in camps (including in gas chambers) - and about 1.5 million died in "open-air" shootings. Rollo the ganger's formula (s/g/p) doesn't speak to the open-air extermination actions. As I pointed out just above, Mary (despite promoting g/p/s) has made a series of unsupportable arguments to wave away these 1.5 million deaths.

That kind of obfuscation - and confusion (given that deniers claim so much more than s/g/p) - is what I was trying to get at in the OP.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:20 am

supervitor wrote:Browning is clearly right on what he argues. But is he somewhat of a "denialist", or just someone who deals with "denialist literature"? Because if he is, even if only a little bit, using Primo Levi's quote seems like a jerk move.
Browning? Good lord, no. Browning is a very fine historian of the Holocaust but not an intentionalist and not simplistic in his arguments. Goldhagen's book was, in a way, a sustained attack on Browning's conclusions about perpetration in his book, Ordinary Men, which studies how ordinary Germans became participants in genocide.
supervitor wrote:Yes, I wasn't sure about that claim that the Germans had or not "hidden" everything, but we know treblinka was an extermination camp.
Oh yeah, David is obsessed with Treblinka and spins up increasingly convoluted nonsense in an effort to deny the evidence that the camp was an execution site where well over 700,000 Jews were killed in gas chambers. Reading his arguments in his many Treblinka threads is headache-producing. A starting point with David is not to trust a single statement he makes: his ability to understand sources is nil, as is his relationship to honesty.
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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by supervitor » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
supervitor wrote:
Statistical Mechanical wrote: (that is, Holocaust denial) in exactly the same terms discussed above - as the denial of six/gas/plan
six/gas/plan?

hehehe, you guys have your own language..
The formula is explained in the OP. It is not shared by "us guys."
lol, I was joking with the "you guys". I guess I skipped that part, I only found that expression funny
supervitor wrote:you're saying that that other guy defined the term as denying the number was 6 million Jews, that there were no gas chambers and that there never was a plan, right?

I liked the detail of "six". So succint.
Sort of. The OP explains that, yes, Rollo the ganger, a denier at RODOH, and Mary Q Contrary have both sought to explain their views as follows: denial that 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust, denial that the Nazis exterminated Jews in gas chambers, and denial that the Nazis had a master plan to extermination Europe's Jews. The corollary for Rollo the ganger is that other arguments made by deniers are "nonsense."

So, e.g., of the death toll in the Holocaust, on which by the way, I follow Hilberg (about 5.1 million, not 6 million), about half the victims perished in camps (including in gas chambers) - and about 1.5 million in "open-air" shootings. Rollo the ganger's formula (s/g/p)
(s/g/p) :lol:
doesn't speak to the open-air extermination actions. As I pointed out just above, Mary (despite promoting g/p/s) makes a series of unsupportable arguments to wave away these 1.5 millions deaths.

That kind of obfuscation - and confusion (given that deniers claim so much more than s/g/p) - is what I was trying to get at in the OP.
Ok. By the way, I've checked that (Christopher?) Browning is a Holocaust Historian, not somewhat of a Denialist

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by supervitor » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
supervitor wrote:Browning is clearly right on what he argues. But is he somewhat of a "denialist", or just someone who deals with "denialist literature"? Because if he is, even if only a little bit, using Primo Levi's quote seems like a jerk move.
Browning? Good lord, no. Browning is a very fine historian of the Holocaust but not an intentionalist and not simplistic in his arguments. Goldhagen's book was, in a way, a sustained attack on Browning's conclusions about perpetration in his book, Ordinary Men, which studies how ordinary Germans became participants in genocide.
We can definitely connect this approach with Arendt's. That's where she was trying to get (Ordinary Men)
supervitor wrote:Yes, I wasn't sure about that claim that the Germans had or not "hidden" everything, but we know treblinka was an extermination camp.
Oh yeah, David is obsessed with Treblinka and spins up increasingly convoluted nonsense in an effort to deny the evidence that the camp was an execution site where well over 700,000 Jews were killed in gas chambers. Reading his arguments in his many Treblinka threads is headache-producing. A starting point with David is not to trust a single statement he makes: his ability to understand sources is nil, as is his relationship to honesty.
:lol: yeah, I guessed that on his first post I came across

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Re: What is it that deniers deny?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:33 am

supervitor wrote:lol, I was joking with the "you guys". I guess I skipped that part, I only found that expression funny
I am apparently a little touchy about being lumped in with David and Maryzilla. LOL.

(Sorry for the slight edit to my post after you replied - I didn't see your reply and was doing my usual "edit after posting." ;(
supervitor wrote:(s/g/p) :lol:
LOL it is just that silly, too!
supervitor wrote:By the way, I've checked that (Christopher?) Browning is a Holocaust Historian, not somewhat of a Denialist
Yes, Christopher Browning, he is, in my view, one of the finest, and most knowledgeable, historians of the Holocaust. Given the discussion of perpetration in the thread you started on Eichmann and Arendt, you might like his book Ordinary Men. Browning writes exceptionally clearly and with deceptive simplicity. His books are - this is odd given the subject matter - a joy to read, he is so in command of his material.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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