Amazing shrinking Treblinka

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David
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Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:12 am

"
Treblinka B is situated on sandy hills among woodland. The area of the camp is comparatively small, some 5,000 hectares (about 12,500 acres).
Report of November 1942
Reprinted in the Black Book of Polish Jewry

Then you have today's Believers-
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts- encompassing some 53 acres.

Gee, Revisionists have a saying, "Believers are Math Challenged."

Given that there are 43,560 sq. feet in an race it looks like Treblinka II would only be
24.105 acres.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:24 am

David wrote:"
Treblinka B is situated on sandy hills among woodland. The area of the camp is comparatively small, some 5,000 hectares (about 12,500 acres).
Report of November 1942
Reprinted in the Black Book of Polish Jewry

Then you have today's Believers-
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts- encompassing some 53 acres.

Gee, Revisionists have a saying, "Believers are Math Challenged."

Given that there are 43,560 sq. feet in an race it looks like Treblinka II would only be
24.105 acres.
Looks like David discovered a third camp site. :scratch:

Or maybe you'd wish to clarify what you're actually talking about, David?
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:32 am

And may I remind you of an earlier discussion?
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html wrote:Treblinka Death Camp History

The camp was laid out in an irregular rectangle 400m by 600m...
...400m x 600m = 1312.34 x 1968.5 feet.

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/projects/holocaust-landscapes/genius-and-genocide/finding-treblinka/project-results/preliminary-results-of-the-survey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/ wrote: Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
...
Through integrated field survey and the correlation of aerial images and LiDAR data, the current marked camp boundary has been shown to be incorrectly located. Thus, the camp appears to have been considerably larger than previously thought and this has implications for the existence of features relating to the Living Camp part of the site (part of which is currently located in a forested area outside of the marked camp boundary).
(emphasis mine) http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p439652" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:32 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:Given that there are 43,560 sq. feet in an race it looks like Treblinka II would only be 24.105 acres.
This is from the lying holocaust denier who kept arguing that only 6 trains could pull into the Treblinka siding.
:D

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:03 pm

David wrote:"
Treblinka B is situated on sandy hills among woodland. The area of the camp is comparatively small, some 5,000 hectares (about 12,500 acres).
Report of November 1942
Reprinted in the Black Book of Polish Jewry

Then you have today's Believers-
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts- encompassing some 53 acres.

Gee, Revisionists have a saying, "Believers are Math Challenged."

Given that there are 43,560 sq. feet in an race it looks like Treblinka II would only be
24.105 acres.


The Report was published in 1942 and was based on guesstimates and local heresy accounts. Using it as a definitive picture exposes your ignorance.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:03 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:And may I remind you of an earlier discussion?
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html wrote:Treblinka Death Camp History

The camp was laid out in an irregular rectangle 400m by 600m...
...400m x 600m = 1312.34 x 1968.5 feet.

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/projects/holocaust-landscapes/genius-and-genocide/finding-treblinka/project-results/preliminary-results-of-the-survey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/ wrote: Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
...
Through integrated field survey and the correlation of aerial images and LiDAR data, the current marked camp boundary has been shown to be incorrectly located. Thus, the camp appears to have been considerably larger than previously thought and this has implications for the existence of features relating to the Living Camp part of the site (part of which is currently located in a forested area outside of the marked camp boundary).
(emphasis mine) http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p439652" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My, my, you Believers are all over the map on the size of Treblinka II camp!
You miss that the "current marked camp boundary" is a result of the
Polish efforts are obscuring the location of the actual "Death Factory?"

The accurate layout and size of the camp is shown in the aerial photographs from
1944 and the Polish survey of 1945. So you have to choose between "eye witnessing"
and scientific evidence. I go with the aerial photographs.

It seems the camp was much smaller than you Believers have claimed.



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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:12 pm

It was actually larger, as the archaeological investigation found.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
The Report was published in 1942 and was based on guesstimates and local heresy accounts. Using it as a definitive picture exposes your ignorance.
Maybe you should read the Report rather than trying to sweep it under the rug? The "sources" were allegedly from inside the Camp. And goofing up on the size of the Camp by a factor of 500 is not the sort of mistake one would make as a guesstimate.
More to the point, the Report contained details still (fervently) endorsed by Believers to this day. For example, all those hundreds of thousands or millions of buried bodies.
I assume you believe that hundreds of thousand of bodies WERE buried at Treblinka II?
Yes?


I don't cite the Report as a "definite picture" of Treblinka Labor Camp but as
a stage in the evolution of the Believer image of Treblinka. If one was going to make up that 2,000,000 people were buried at Treblinka then one needs to claim the
Camp was large enough to hold 2,000,000 bodies.

Now the number of bodies has dropped.
The Camp has always been the same size, less than 20 acres including living
areas, holding areas of transit passengers, Bakery buildings, etc.


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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:27 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:It was actually larger, as the archaeological investigation found.
Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the
two camps merged into each other. Given the logging and quarry activities of
Treblinka, she is sort of correct.

However, why don't you stick to the Revisionist evidence of the aerial photographs?
Looking at the photographs, how big do you say the Upper Camp area of Treblinka II
is? 4 acres? 5 acres?
Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.



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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:33 pm

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the two camps merged into each other.
Post the quote so we can see the real context.
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.
Where did you get the "1,000,000 bodies" from David? Are you making another strawman argument, that no one ever claimed?

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:37 pm

Jeff, David, the holocaust denier is extremely homophobic and spent over a year meticulously changing my posts into pink to suggest I'm homosexual. He has been warned by Pyrrho that he will be banned if he does it again.

He started copying my blue font two years ago after he got caught fabricating an entire story about Treblinka. He does it to hide his past lies.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:34 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the two camps merged into each other.
Post the quote so we can see the real context. ...
Matthew, this new concoction is almost too ridiculous to reply to. Seems he now claims T I and T II merged because he can't wrap his head around the meaning, layout, and size of the Lower and Upper Camp sections of T II.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:53 am

IIRC that was not what CSC stated.

The early reports originated from hearsay estimates. The in-camp sources were making estimates based on what they assumed at the time.

I invite you to get yourself to an unfamiliar area under extremely stressful circumstances. Said area must be partially obscured, and you can't go to any more than a quarter of it at most. Then guess how large the area is. You will be just as off as the originators of the report.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:46 am

David wrote:Then you have today's Believers-
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts- encompassing some 53 acres.
What is the source for this italicized phrase?
David wrote: The "sources" were allegedly from inside the Camp.
Will you tell us more about the source(s) for the Polish report? A few years ago you tried to, tripped, banged your head hard on your keyboard, and have not been able to express a coherent thought since.
David wrote: More to the point, the Report contained details still (fervently) endorsed by Believers to this day.
As you know, the Polish report also contains details that have been disproven. Care to tell us which details are “endorsed by Believers”? Which “Believers”? And which details have been shown to be in error? Why should we privilege this one report over all the others during the period? Finally, please tell us on what grounds “Believers” accept or reject elements of the Polish report.
David wrote:I don't cite the Report as a "definite picture" of Treblinka Labor Camp
As Jeff_36 intimates, you are obsessed with this single report, an outlier even at the time it was issued. You focus on it, and Maryzilla focuses on one of its derivatives, so much so that readers must conclude you’re either unaware of the range of evidence about Treblinka – or afraid of it.
David wrote:. . . but as a stage in the evolution of the Believer image of Treblinka.
What stage? What other “images” of Treblinka were current during the 1940s – or was this the only one? How did the Polish report compare to other reports like Krzepecki’s, Strawczynski’s, Wiernik’s, reports of the Home Army, other testimonies by survivors of the Treblinka revolt? Were they part of this “stage” you’re telling us about?
David wrote:If one was going to make up that 2,000,000 people were buried at Treblinka then one needs to claim the Camp was large enough to hold 2,000,000 bodies.
I’ll be damned if I know what you’re trying to say. We have a well-ventilated report from November 1942, “Jewish Warsaw is no more,” which after the war fed the Polish government presentation at the IMT on Treblinka (PS-3311) as well as having appeared in the Black Book of Polish Jewry report in 1943, yes, that one, the report you are obsessed with.

Furthermore, “Believers” did not have a consensus in late 1942 that 2 million Jews had been killed by the Nazis at Treblinka – or even during the war, in total. For example, a JTA report from a year later, reviewing the Black Book, said this,
An estimated 1,000,000 Polish Jews have been killed by the Nazis since the beginning of the war, it is stated in “The Black Book of Polish Jewry,” which is described by its sponsors, the American Federation of Polish Jews, as “the first fully documented account of the persecutions to which the Jews in Poland have been subjected by the Germans.”

The Black Book Treblinka report, as noted above, included a number of errors, and some of them were about numbers: size of camp, at least 2 million buried already, etc.

You seem to be arguing that the 2 million corpses mentioned in the Black Book report drove some people –Hersh Wasser and comrades – to conspire to inflate the camp’s size to 5,000 hectares, in order that the camp’s grounds accommodate so many bodies. In your view, then, the Jews contrived a 400 corpse per hectare burial space in late 1942 to put over a case for the Holocaust that would be believed . . .

You are lying unabashedly. Just as bad, you are not making even a bit of sense. If the “believable” number of corpses per hectare was 400, then the “Believers,” one would expect would keep at about that ratio as the concocted smaller and smaller numbers of victims (the diminishing number of victims, as we shall see, is another of your bad jokes . . . ).

The arithmetic is easy but you don’t want to spell it out because doing so would simply make you out to be a dunce (in this thread, some of us made our assumptions about this topic visible; the thread is worth re-reading): the experts generally now estimate somewhere close to 800,000 people were killed at Treblinka. If corpse burial requires the space you claim was contrived for the Black Book piece on Treblinka – 400 bodies per hectare – then “Believers” today should generally be arguing that the camp was smaller than stated in 1942-1943 – but 2,000 rather than 5,000 hectares.

But “Believers” don’t say any such thing. You’re just spouting nonsense that you think sounds important and that you hope will confuse readers.

Let’s look at some important estimates of TII size (and let’s use a constant, hectares) and death toll. We should Grossman’s foolish war-time overreaction – and also revisionist accounts.

I am still trying to track down whether some of those estimating death tolls also stated a camp size. To be clear, the victims per hectare numbers range – from about 30,000 to about 70,000. That is, the lowest “victim density” per hectare is almost 75 times greater than what you attribute to the contrivance of Warsaw Jews in their article in the Black Book.

Date – Source – Area (in hectares) - Death Toll – Victims per hectare

1945 – Łukaszkiewicz – 13.45 – 780,000 – 57,992
1946 – Auerbach – 15 hectares – 1,074,000 – 71,600
1961 – Hilberg – ? – 750,000 - ?
1965 - Düsseldorf court – 24 – 700,000 (Krausnick) – 29,166
1970 – Stangl trial - ? – 900,000 (Scheffler) – 37,500 (used 1965 area est)
1987 – Arad – 24 – 763,000 - 31,791
1992 – Glazar – 24 - 900,000 (Benz) – 37,500
1993 – Gilbert – ? - 850,000 - ?
2003 – Bay – 21 – 850,000 - 40,476
2011 – HC Critique – 13.45 – 789,000 – 58,661 (the HC authors cite Łukaszkiewicz for area)
2012 – USHMM Web page – 23.9 – between 870,000 and 925,000 – 36,401 to 38,702
David wrote:It seems the camp was much smaller than you Believers have claimed.
It seems you can’t tell your ass from a hole in the ground.

I would like you to name one of “us Believers” who has argued that TII was as large as the erroneous report of November 1942.
David wrote:Now the number of bodies has dropped.
This is stupid. The estimate of the number of victims has bounced around and is today not 100% agreed. The most recent estimate of victims that I know of (USHMM, 2012) is 90,000 to 145,000 more than Łukaszkiewicz’s 1945-1946 estimate.
David wrote:Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the two camps merged into each other. Given the logging and quarry activities of Treblinka, she is sort of correct.
This Web page, from Caroline Sturdy Colls, is entitled “Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)”; in case this is confusing, I suppose, it is subtitled “Extermination Camp (Treblinka II).” Sturdy Colls writes on this page, about TII,
Through integrated field survey and the correlation of aerial images and LiDAR data, the current marked camp boundary has been shown to be incorrectly located. Thus, the camp appears to have been considerably larger than previously thought and this has implications for the existence of features relating to the Living Camp part of the site (part of which is currently located in a forested area outside of the marked camp boundary).
Perhaps you will share the source for your claim, which is counter to what Sturdy Colls’ has posted.
David wrote:Looking at the photographs, how big do you say the Upper Camp area of Treblinka II is? 4 acres? 5 acres?
Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.
Again, please read this, as well as Roberto Muehlenkamp’s section of the HC Critique on mass graves. Why are you acting as though these questions have not been addressed? Do you suppose anyone here will fall for your {!#%@}?
David wrote:I go with the aerial photographs.
The HC Critique, p 426, shows an aerial photo with camp sectors and dimensions superimposed; your bravado is nothing special. But I do hope that you also “go with” survey and other types of results. Well, I should say, one should “go with” such results – I don’t give a rat’s ass what you accept.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:09 am

Jeff_36 wrote:IIRC that was not what CSC stated.

The early reports originated from hearsay estimates. The in-camp sources were making estimates based on what they assumed at the time.

I invite you to get yourself to an unfamiliar area under extremely stressful circumstances. Said area must be partially obscured, and you can't go to any more than a quarter of it at most. Then guess how large the area is. You will be just as off as the originators of the report.
An earlier take on this topic, and the source of the early hearsay:
It is doubtful that the source was an eyewitness, as the report contains details about the death camp section of Treblinka, and the Jews working there weren't able to meet with Oyneg Shabes or Bund interviewers. More likely, someone passed information to someone who spoke to someone who reported to Wasser or Gutkowski, men who were also hearing about gas and electricity at the same time and who made judgments about all they were hearing when the compiled their report. To the best of my knowledge, no one knows how the "steam" information reached the Oyneg Shabes folks. In short, the report reprinted in the Black Book contains accurate and inaccurate statements but generally is not well sourced (along with its being contradicted by a number of contemporary reports). There is no reason to privilege this source over others and, once we move on from one doc at a time, good reasons to challenge some of its contents.

(In this old thread, been-there tried using six reports - well, been-there cribbed from Grubach's attempt to undermine convergence of evidence by showing six reports on "steam" at TII, a killing method which obviously no one credits; the trouble is that five of the reports were derivatives of the Oyneg Shabes report on November 1942.)


Edit: fixed spell check butchering of Grubach
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:52 am

SM be on that Nazi killing tip
word to the {!#%@}

https://www.google.ca/search?q=apply+wa ... B480%3B360" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:10 am

Jeff_36 wrote:IIRC that was not what CSC stated.

The early reports originated from hearsay estimates. The in-camp sources were making estimates based on what they assumed at the time.

I invite you to get yourself to an unfamiliar area under extremely stressful circumstances. Said area must be partially obscured, and you can't go to any more than a quarter of it at most. Then guess how large the area is. You will be just as off as the originators of the report.
Please stop making up stupid "explanations." There was a
constant steam of trains, trucks, wagons, and people walking past the entire
Treblinka II site every day to and from the Quarry and the Labor camp.
It would have been impossible not to get the correct size of the Camp.

Anyway, You are avoiding looking at the aerial photographs and coming up with a Rational estimate of size.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by David » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:33 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: We have a well-ventilated report from November 1942, “Jewish Warsaw is no more,” which after the war fed the Polish government presentation at the IMT on Treblinka (PS-3311) as well as having appeared in the Black Book of Polish Jewry report in 1943, yes, that one, the report you are obsessed with.
You mean the Report that you keep trying to tapdance away from?
The Report of November 1942 appeared in London and contained all the elements
of the Treblinka Tale down to rich details of what allegedly had occurred inside the Camp.
All "According to the report of an eyewitness."
To understand the detailed descriptions of the "eye witness" just read the
report itself.
http://www.xoxol.org/dem/blackbook01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Report was the gospel of Holocaust Believers and parts of the Tale (such as the huge Steam vats of death) were presented at the Nuremberg Tribunal in
1946. Now the Report is an embarrassment to Believers.

CARE TO STOP THE BS AND TELL US THE SIZE OF TREBLINKA II??
So SM, all your BS and diversions aside. Look at the aerial photograph
and give your best estimate of the size of Treblinka Camp. Enough of dragging
up your Believer "experts." You have real evidence in front of you.

To help you along you can use the Believer figures "approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts."






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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:23 am

David wrote:Please stop making up stupid "explanations." There was a constant steam
Someone has "steam" on the brain.
David wrote:trains, trucks, wagons, and people walking past the entire Treblinka II site every day to and from the Quarry and the Labor camp.
It would have been impossible not to get the correct size of the Camp.
?????
David wrote:Anyway, You are avoiding looking at the aerial photographs and coming up with a Rational estimate of size.
??????
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:19 am

David wrote:You mean the Report that you keep trying to tapdance away from?
"Tapdance" as in "discuss" at some length in this thread in another forum and many times in SSF, such as starting with this post and in other threads? Or do you mean "subject to critical analysis like all documents"?
David wrote:The Report of November 1942 . . . and contained all the elements of the Treblinka Tale down to rich details of what allegedly had occurred inside the Camp.
Bollocks. The Treblinka narrative we have today is far more complete and much richer - it also includes, FSS, the change of "management" at the end of August 1942, the use of the camp to murder Jews from other parts of Europe, lots of information on the guard cohort (Trawnikis, e.g.), the Grodno resistance on arrival at the camp, the so-called slow season in early 1943 when transports were no longer arriving daily, the planning and carrying out of the revolt, the aftermath of the revolt, data on deportations and transports to the camp, the exhumation of 100s of 1000s of corpses and burning of them, more details on the construction of both sets of gas chambers, the role and the importance of the Lazarett including for incoming transports, details on the lives of the Jewish workforce, etc. All these elements are missing from, or mentioned in passing, the November 1942 report.
David wrote:All
??????
David wrote:"According to the report of an eyewitness."
David, I can read. I asked you what more you know about the eyewitness . . . for example, the report mentioned an eyewitness to the construction of death-house no. 2 and in another place an eyewitness to an extermination action supposedly of a group of Poles in death-house no. 1 in August. Were these details provided by a single eyewitness or by two eyewitnesses? Did the information in the report come from prisoners? What parts of the camp's operation did eyewitness(es) observe first-hand? How did the eyewitness(es) come to be in Warsaw? In short, how well positioned were the eyewitnesses and how reliable are various points in the OS report?

You didn't answer the question I asked you about the eyewitness(es)/source for the information in the OS report. I didn't expect you to, knowing your antics.

I also asked you about other contemporary reports, and about some reports from later in the war, that don't match all the details of the OS report. Again, you failed to reply, not that I expected you to - since you don't like dealing with evidence uncomfortable to your fixations.

Furthermore, I also asked you which details are generally accepted today and which are not - and on what basis. You didn't answer. Again, I had low expectations when I asked.
David wrote:To understand the detailed descriptions of the "eye witness" just read the report itself.
http://www.xoxol.org/dem/blackbook01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David, I've read the version in the Black Book of Polish Jewry, Allied statements based on the November 1942 OS report, contemporary comments on the reports, the version presented by Dr Cyprian on behalf the Polish government at the IMT (PS-3311), and a translation of the base document, which was used for various versions during 1943-1945, printed in Kermish, To Live and to Die with Honor. What's more, I've compared the versions one to the other and the original to other war-time and postwar reports on Treblinka.

You really need to pull your head out of your ass on this. Your myopia and repetitiveness give alarm for your state of mind.
David wrote:The Report was the gospel of Holocaust Believers
The report was not "gospel"; it was one of a number of reports, and details in it didn't match with other contemporary reports, e.g., Krzepicki's testimony to OS, which you've ignored; Wiernik's book; Strawczynski's book, etc. Early reports made guesses at, or included solid information about, various details, including how people were murdered in the "death chambers"; some reports did not state a means of death (an example is the one from Nowodworski in August); some reports mentioned gassing (Rabinowicz in September IIRC, Kon in September, Krzepicki in September, Polish underground press in September and October, etc), some cited electrocution, some noted shootings, and one that I know of referred to steam (most of the reports mentioning electricity were about Bełzec, not Treblinka; Opoczynski in mid-October mentioned a "giant electric chair"). In a diary entry dated 15 October 1942, a month before the report compiled by Wasser and Gutkowski, Ringelblum (head of OS) wrote about Treblinka that news came from Rabinowicz and "Stok": "The method of killing: gas, steam, electricity. "People receiving such reports, and compiling information from them, had to make judgments about what they were hearing, with limited means of squaring the varying details. This is not exactly news, nor are divergences in early information on complex events unfamiliar to historians of any time, period, or events. (Hint: "etc" as used here means there's more that I will spell out in future posts. Such as the Bund's report in Oif der Vach from late September 1942, which observed that some people reference gassing and others electrocution. "Etc.")

Do you really want to make a fool of yourself about all this - again?

Also, why do you ignore the range of reports and testimonies and fixate on a single data point? Is that the revisionist method?
David wrote: parts of the Tale (such as the huge Steam vats of death) were presented at the Nuremberg Tribunal in 1946.
So what? Did the IMT conclude and state the "huge Steam vats of death" were the method of murder at Treblinka? You've dodged telling us what the IMT found regarding Treblinka - but persist in making the same dumb assertions that got Maryzilla handed her ass in another thread.
David wrote:Now the Report is an embarrassment to Believers.
Not to me, and not to any "Believers" I know. The November 1942 is a useful piece of evidence, with errors and with good information, and needs to be studied in context.
David wrote:CARE TO STOP THE BS AND TELL US THE SIZE OF TREBLINKA II??
So SM, all your BS and diversions aside.
David, you lied about the arguments made by historians, I've shown that you lied, so now you use capital letter to try changing the subject. LOL.
David wrote:Look at the aerial photograph and give your best estimate of the size of Treblinka Camp.
David, neither you nor I can determine from a single aerial photo the size of the camp. We need more information. The photograph doesn't show details observable by GPR, LiDAR, ground survey, etc. Thus, I told you above, the photography needs to be supplemented with other methods of study. Historians and others studying the camp agree that it was not large but there is a range of estimates given, probably depending in part on the methods used to determine size and which sources historians rely on. When Sturdy Colls publishes her detailed survey results, we can debate this further.
David wrote:Enough of dragging up your Believer "experts."
Again, David, the estimates I gave you disprove your claim about what historians have argued concerning the camp. They are not, nor did I present them to be, definitive as to the camp's size. In fact, they don't align. I hope that Sturdy Colls' work will resolve the discrepancies.
David wrote:You have real evidence in front of you.
You're an idiot who ignores mountains of real evidence.
David wrote:To help you along you can use the Believer figures "approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts."
Oh, right, I asked you the source for these dimensions. You didn't provide it. I, OTOH, provided a number of estimates within 0.1 hectares of this estimate.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hell you are trying to tell us and how it squares with the evidence. All you've really accomplished is to highlight two points from the November 1942 OS report that were in error - and which no one contests!

Your return to posting is thus indeed a return to form: you're as confusing as ever and just as detached from reality.

Pro tip: provide references for your claims when asked. This will enable readers of your verbal diarrhea to check where you come up with your nonsense. Another one you've "forgotten" to give us is where Sturdy Colls says, according to the liar (you), that her estimate for a larger size of the camp is not for TII but for the TI/TII complex.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:56 am

Surprisingly we come to a significant problem. By means of his usual slapdash approach, David has painted himself into the same corner into which revisionists always land themselves when dealing with Treblinka. Thus the issue here is the case for revisionism, not David's ineptitude.

So let's think about where revisionism gets itself. The November 1942 OS report came when the nazis had removed some 300,000 Jews from Warsaw. Those left in the Warsaw ghetto were of course alarmed. They followed up on the deportations from the city and learned that the Jews had been taken to Treblinka, a small camp fairly close to Warsaw; they learned that transports did not take anyone from Treblinka and that the camp was too small and lacked infrastructure to house 1000s of people, let alone 100s of 1000s. They got various reports about happened to Jews in the camp. These reports were very much like reports that had begun reaching ghetto organizations in spring about Lublin district and a camp near there called Bełzec. During the summer still more reports of a similar tenor but adding in mention of Sobibór reached the Warsaw ghetto. The news about all three camps by fall mostly referred to mass gassings but also to murder by steam or electrocution. The various reports aligned on the deportations and on mass murder of Jews taken to the camps.

What should contemporaries like the OS, Bund or Polish underground have done? They decided to alert the world even as they tried to refine the information and analysis. Necessarily then these earlier reports mixed in misinformation with solid information, and in some cases the misinformation was picked up for some time thereafter.

What are historians to do? Historians have access to all the information reaching people during 1942 and 1943 - an advantage no single group had at the time. Historians have access to additional information including German documents, ghetto records, diaries, and postwar investigations of various sorts including physical inspections. All this information "corrects" earlier and rushed analysis. It improves our understanding of numbers involved, time frames and sequences, camp operations, and killing methods.

So let's be clear about the revisionist quandary: within 2 months, 300,000 Jews from Warsaw "disappeared." Something happened to this large number of people. We have a great deal of evidence about what that was. Rather than deal with this evidence, revisionists fabricate unlikely and baseless stories; they can adduce virtually no evidence for their stories and instead willfully misunderstand the evidence we have and, as David did here, make inane, nitpicking arguments about supposed - but easily explained - discrepancies in the body of evidence. David is unusually dense in making opaque arguments and more fanciful conjectures. But the pig is the same all over when it comes to revisionists: they've got no explanation for the great, observable fact - the rapid disappearance of Jews from all across the General-Gouvernement and elsewhere, starting in 1942.

No wonder, like David, so many revisionists (remember Maryzilla's own goal with judicial notice and the very same PS-3311) time and again find themselves reduced to cherry picking and falsifying. Doing so suits their purposes and is the only way into fact to achieve their dishonest goals and to hoodwink readers.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:25 pm

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:trains, trucks, wagons, and people walking past the entire Treblinka II site every day to and from the Quarry and the Labor camp.
It would have been impossible not to get the correct size of the Camp.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:?????
Yes. It does appear that David is still quite mad at the moment. Obviously the last two months of treatment were not successful.
:D

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:35 pm

David, the insane holocaust denier, three months ago wrote:you need to realize that the siding didn't "went into Treblinka extermination camp"
The rail spur went through a gate into Treblinka II.
David, the insane holocaust denier, three months ago wrote:...the (Treblinka II platform would only serve 6-8 cars at most
The platform was 200metres long and could take up to 33 boxcars. We supplied you with maps of Treblinka, as you were lying and fabricating stories.

David, the insane holocaust denier, Today wrote: CARE TO STOP THE BS AND TELL US THE SIZE OF TREBLINKA II??
So SM, all your BS and diversions aside. Look at the aerial photograph
and give your best estimate of the size of Treblinka Camp. Enough of dragging
up your Believer "experts." You have real evidence in front of you.
You are very very mad at the moment David.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:02 am

I think David might need a moderator imposed break from here until he can get his facts straight.

And could people please contribute to my Morgen Thread? There is legitimate fact finding that can be done there.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the two camps merged into each other.
Post the quote so we can see the real context.
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.
Where did you get the "1,000,000 bodies" from David? Are you making another strawman argument, that no one ever claimed?
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:11 am

800-850,000 is more reasonable IMO. The Million+ claims are by far outliers.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:21 am

Jeff_36 wrote:800-850,000 is more reasonable IMO. The Million+ claims are by far outliers.
David is being stupid on purpose. Not all the victims were buried first. He knows that, but has reverted to his "old slogan", "where were the million bodies buried". He has simply "re-set himself" and will start posting all his old slogans again. He does this every two years after he has been "away".

The only weird coincidence was that Mary the holocaust denier returned two days before David. However Mary was posting in the UFO and "guns for protection' forum.

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How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Photogr

Post by David » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:02 am

How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Photograph?
More than Matty, SM, and Jeff.
Believers seem incapable of looking at primary evidence like the aerial photographs
of Treblinka taken in May and September 1944 to get a very close idea of the size
of the so-called "Death Factory."

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
> Necessarily then these earlier reports mixed in misinformation with solid information,
> and in some cases the misinformation was picked up for some time thereafter.
A fatuous "excuse" destroyed by the details of the early propaganda.
There are details of the interior of the Camp which are still part of Holocaust Belief,
what was said to the victims to trick them into the Showers, the composition of the guards and inmates, how bodies were handled. Take the description of the "Tube."
"From there, a path runs through the woods for about 200 meters eastwards and then turns at right angles to the south and runs along a forest, parallel to the western limit of the arrival-square. This road stops at a large building of an unusual shape:"
That is still Believer Gospel.

What SM passes off as "misinformation" are conditions which are clearly observable
from outside the Camp...like the size of the Camp. (12,500 acres!)
To put it simply, how could someone correctly give us the size and shape of
the Tube" (or die Himmelstraße) and be off on the size of the Camp by a
factor of 300? People were constantly driving around and through Treblinka II.

The answer is that Believers have been forced to abandon parts of the Tale
as the evidence becomes overwhelming, like the Tales from 1942-1946 of Steam
Chambers or 2,000,000 bodies buried, or a hidden Death Factory of 12,500 acres.




Statistical Mechanic wrote:
> The Treblinka narrative we have today is far more complete and much richer -

Yes like all the "eye Witnesses" who claim John Demjanjuk was running the
Diesel Engines at Treblinka." Or maybe you are referring to the rich and complete
testimony of Yankel Wiernik that bodies of people killed by CO poisoning turned
Yellow?

it also
> includes, the exhumation of 100s of 1000s of corpses and burning
> of them, more details on the construction of both sets of gas chambers, All these elements are missing from, or
> mentioned in passing, the November 1942 report.
>
Actually KeyStone witness Yankel Wiernik said that somewhere around 250,000
bodies were left in the ground...but they seem to have moved off somewhere. :shock:
The "dig up and burn the bodies" tales popped up in late 1944 after the Soviets got to Majdanek and Treblinka and couldn't find any mass graves (as in 25,000 bodies)
One of the much richer stories floated by the Soviet was that the cremated bodies
were used to pave roads :roll: :roll:

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
> You're an idiot who ignores mountains of real evidence.

Hey, you can go with Yankel "I see Yellow Bodies" Wiernik.
I will go with physical evidence at the site and aerial photographs.


scrmbldggs wrote:
> Matthew, this new concoction is almost too ridiculous to reply to. Seems he now claims
> T I and T II merged because he can't wrap his head around the meaning, layout, and
> size of the Lower and Upper Camp sections of T II.

I am not claiming that T I and T II were merged, they had different administration. Although there was a large amount of interaction between the Quarry, timber operations
and the two camps.

Anyway, to keep Scrm up to date on the latest in Believer Theories, there
are NOW supposed to have been three camps at Treblinka II
Living, Reception, and Dieseling, and burying and digging up and cremating.
Go see the map at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_ ... ation_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The little red fires show where there should be remains of huge cremation pyres today.
:lol: :lol:

But the map is a least an attempt to locate the crazy tales in reality.
More than any Believer in this forum has been able to do.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:45 am

David wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:IIRC that was not what CSC stated.

The early reports originated from hearsay estimates. The in-camp sources were making estimates based on what they assumed at the time.

I invite you to get yourself to an unfamiliar area under extremely stressful circumstances. Said area must be partially obscured, and you can't go to any more than a quarter of it at most. Then guess how large the area is. You will be just as off as the originators of the report.
Please stop making up stupid "explanations." There was a
constant steam of trains, trucks, wagons, and people walking past the entire
Treblinka II site every day to and from the Quarry and the Labor camp.
It would have been impossible not to get the correct size of the Camp.

Anyway, You are avoiding looking at the aerial photographs and coming up with a Rational estimate of size.
I love how they fall back on the "early reports were just a bunch of horse hockey" explanation. It's almost as good as the "survivors were suffering from PTSD so of course they were wrong about everything" excuse.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:800-850,000 is more reasonable IMO. The Million+ claims are by far outliers.
David is being stupid on purpose. Not all the victims were buried first. He knows that, but has reverted to his "old slogan", "where were the million bodies buried". He has simply "re-set himself" and will start posting all his old slogans again. He does this every two years after he has been "away".

The only weird coincidence was that Mary the holocaust denier returned two days before David. However Mary was posting in the UFO and "guns for protection' forum.
Maybe it's a conspiracy.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:48 am

Jeff_36 wrote:800-850,000 is more reasonable IMO. The Million+ claims are by far outliers.
Why?
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:00 am

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.
Where did you get the "1,000,000 bodies" from David? Are you making another strawman argument, that no one ever claimed? [/quote]
Mary you complete idiot. They didn't bury all the Treblinka victims first. You have been told that numerous times.

Why are you so stupid?

:D

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Re: How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Pho

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:03 am

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Photograph?

We looked at the Forensic survey done by surveyors, you complete idiot.

Why did you lie continuously and say only 6 rail boxcars could fit in the Treblinka siding two months ago?
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Re: How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Pho

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:06 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:I am not claiming that T I and T II were merged
Last year you claimed Treblinka II was a munitions factory for repossessing soviet ammunition.

You make up different stories every week because you are a lying holocaust denier.

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Re: How many Believers does it take to look at an aerial Pho

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:10 am

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Actually KeyStone witness Yankel Wiernik said that somewhere around 250,000 bodies were left in the ground.
Can you link us to this quote?

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by NathanC » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:42 am

For a rational explanation of how the world really works, I recommend thid article by skeptic Mark Hoofnagle.

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/ ... -shooting/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aside from the ghoulish nature of using events such as these to promote one’s bizarre anti-government conspiracy theories, I think this is a case-study on the formation of new conspiracy theories. It is true, in the early attempts at understanding what was happening many different accounts were offered. Watching these horrible events unfold I noticed how at first the media was confused but gradually began to report a more consistent, and terrible picture.To a sane person, one sees this as the general confusion that results from a “fog of war”. We know that the press is desperately seeking any information that adds to this story, because people are desperate to know what happened? How many were hurt? Is the suspect loose or apprehended? Is this going to keep happening? Will this be the event that finally convinces people to do something about this problem? They also are relying on eye witness reports of individuals who probably only experience a narrow portion of the same events. Eventually the pieces are stitched together, an investigation takes information from all the witnesses and tries to make all the differing accounts mesh. And we know when people are frightened, anything out of the ordinary can and should be reported to make sure every possible lead is followed to its conclusion.
some people here obviously don't live in the real world.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by NathanC » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:45 am

David wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:IIRC that was not what CSC stated.

The early reports originated from hearsay estimates. The in-camp sources were making estimates based on what they assumed at the time.

I invite you to get yourself to an unfamiliar area under extremely stressful circumstances. Said area must be partially obscured, and you can't go to any more than a quarter of it at most. Then guess how large the area is. You will be just as off as the originators of the report.
Please stop making up stupid "explanations." There was a
constant steam of trains, trucks, wagons, and people walking past the entire
Treblinka II site every day to and from the Quarry and the Labor camp.
It would have been impossible not to get the correct size of the Camp.

Anyway, You are avoiding looking at the aerial photographs and coming up with a Rational estimate of size.
Because people have gps's for brains.

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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:40 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Sturdy-Colls comes up with claiming that the two camps merged into each other.
Post the quote so we can see the real context.
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Let's figure out the area where Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried.
Where did you get the "1,000,000 bodies" from David? Are you making another strawman argument, that no one ever claimed?
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion ... gures.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not responsive to the question. David made a blanket statement that "Believers claim 1,000,000 bodies were buried." You answered with a link to a Nizkor webpage from years ago sporting a quotation from a book published in 1979. But you were not asked what some people thought decades ago about Treblinka's death toll (Auerbach's estimate, e.g., is from 1946).

I've not read a single "Believer" in the last decade claiming 1 million were killed, let alone buried, at Treblinka. A few posts above I listed important estimates of the total death toll at Treblinka, including estimates made in the 36 years since what you quoted was written:
Date – Source – Area (in hectares) - Death Toll – Victims per hectare

1945 – Łukaszkiewicz – 13.45 – 780,000 – 57,992
1946 – Auerbach – 15 hectares – 1,074,000 – 71,600
1961 – Hilberg – ? – 750,000 - ?
1965 - Düsseldorf court – 24 – 700,000 (Krausnick) – 29,166
1970 – Stangl trial - ? – 900,000 (Scheffler) – 37,500 (used 1965 area est)
1987 – Arad – 24 – 763,000 - 31,791
1992 – Glazar – 24 - 900,000 (Benz) – 37,500
1993 – Gilbert – ? - 850,000 - ?
2003 – Bay – 21 – 850,000 - 40,476
2011 – HC Critique – 13.45 – 789,000 – 58,661 (the HC authors cite Łukaszkiewicz for area)
2012 – USHMM Web page – 23.9 – between 870,000 and 925,000 – 36,401 to 38,702
Earlier I gave my estimate, with assumptions, for the camp's death toll, cribbing from pp 382, 481 of the HC Critique:
My two cents on this, following Roberto Muehlenkamp:

Through 31 December 1942: 721,555

- Hoefle telegram, Jews transported by SSPF Lublin (Globocnik's team): 713,555*
- Other Jewish transports (Theresienstadt): 8,000**

In 1943: 67,308

- Transports of Jews from General-Gouvernement and Bialystok district: 53,149
- Transports of Jews from Saloniki, Macedonia and Thessaloniki: 14,159***

Additional 1943, other than Jews:

- Sinti and Roma transports: 2,000

Grand total: 790,863 of which 788,863 were Jews

-------

* Confirmed by Korherr Report
** Starting 5 October 1942, 5 transports - cited in Arad, BST, pages 141-143; also on Wikipedia list
*** Muehlenkamp cites Jacek Andrzej Młynarczyk, "Treblinka – Ein Todeslager im Rahmen der 'Aktion Reinhard'," in: Bogdan Musial (editor), Aktion Reinhardt Der Völkermord an den Juden im Generalgouvernement 1941-1944, pp. 257-281
One can easily see, by comparing the HC estimate for the total death toll (mine as well) with those on the summary I posted, that the HC estimate is within the range of what "Believers" have claimed for decades.

Which brings us to the other stupidity in your post: clearly, not all the bodies of people murdered at Treblinka were buried. This point, too, has been discussed in the forum, recently in this thread; I call your attention to this post summarizing the issue of number of burials:
Here's my quick arithmetic as to # of bodies all this results in:

- as of 31 August 1942: 310,000 (of these some 1000s burnt)

- as of 31 December 1943: 721,555 (Höfle + Theresienstadt)
- as of let's call it 28 February 1943: another 40,000?
- total before "Floss action": 761,555 (less some 1000s burnt as above)

Vs Mattogno, the net effect is to reduce the number of bodies in his calculation by over 100,000 and to increase the time by at least 1 month

As noted, IIRC Muehlenkamp always uses a high number; from all this, it appears that my under 700,000 was premature amidst fuzziness due to caffeine high . . . I am guessing 740,000-750,000 corpses buried as of start of Floss action . . . with caveat that the number of corpses burnt cannot be tightly estimated due to partial information about September 1942 camp reorganization . . .
So, despite your heroic labors, linking to a woefully out of date web page and ignoring the matter of cremations, Matthew Ellard's question of David remains unanswered: where did David get the idea that "Believers" generally claim (present tense) 1 million bodies were buried at Treblinka?

In addition, neither David nor you has answered the questions Matthew Ellard and I asked about David’s apparent distortion of Sturdy Colls’s finding about the size of TII.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:48 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:800-850,000 is more reasonable IMO. The Million+ claims are by far outliers.
For an issue that's been discussed so much, including by us in this forum, I would like to see an explanation for estimates of the TII death toll rather than bare assertion.
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Re: Amazing shrinking Treblinka

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:51 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I think David might need a moderator imposed break from here until he can get his facts straight.
But that's why we're here. I would not want to put the burden of determining David's lies, chicanery, confusion, and stupidity all on Pyrrho!
Jeff_36 wrote:And could people please contribute to my Morgen Thread? There is legitimate fact finding that can be done there.
I'm far too busy with other stuff; since I have only passing familiarity with Morgen and his testimony, adding to the discussion would require me to review a lot of material - and I don't have this on my priorities list. Balsamo will be glad to know that I'm immersed in western Europe, France again at the moment, after a brief sojourn in Hungary and an extended tour of the Netherlands.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .