Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

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Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:56 pm

Revisionists have made many silly - and mutually contradictory - "arguments" about the murder of Jews in the "wild East" - what Hilberg groups as the “open-air shootings” in the occupied USSR. These murders are often thought of as Einsatzgruppen operations but were actually carried out by a range of German forces, including the SS-Einsatzgruppen, police battalions, Waffen-SS, police assigned to the HSSPFs, units of the Wehrmacht, and local auxiliary recruits.

Below is my start on a list of some revisionist “thoughts” on the open-air shootings. I've compiled this list from actual posts and writings of revisionists (recall that, according to Hilberg, over 1.4 million Jews perished in the open-air shootings in the East). I should say that I think every one of the arguments below has been discussed at length on different forums and in other venues. I've not, however, seen denier "thoughts" on the open-air shootings pulled together.

I'd like folks to add to my list other "arguments" made by revisionists about these actions, ones that I've forgotten or am not aware of . . . and then hear from any revisionists who still post in this subforum what is their view of the open-air killings - are there propositions here that they want to defend or other, better revisionist arguments about these actions?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Einsatzgruppen were actually battling partisans; any killings were the result of security and counter-insurgency operations against threats to the pacification of areas in the East; Himmler confirmed this at Posen: all you have is evidence of anti-partisan actions which may have become excessive at time

There is no order that ties the security operations in occupied areas to a German plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe

Einsatzgruppen units engaged in nothing more than ethnic cleansing and population removal: intending to make regions free of Jews does not prove an intent to kill the Jews

There is no evidence Jews in particular were targeted by the Einsatzgruppen or killed by them because they were Jews

At best you can show that there were some rogue operations without the direction or approval of higher ups (more sophisticated version: "les sources dont il s´inspire sont inconnues”)

You can’t trust the numbers in the German reports - they were inflated by commanders on the ground to impress their superiors

The Einsatzgruppen reports (Ereignismeldungen) are hearsay at best - there’s no evidence to show what was claimed in the reports was actually carried out

There are no documents proving extermination: the Ereignismeldungen/Jäger/Stahlecker don’t report exterminations but instead shootings in security actions - sure, Jews were killed but only as part of neutralizing the Judeo-Bolshevik elements that were perceived as a threat to the occupation

The Ereignismeldungen are fabrications (the Jäger Report is a Soviet forgery, ditto Stahlecker, etc) - the authenticity of the EG reports has not been documented

The Soviets doctored the reports to align them with the Communist narrative used in the postwar trials

The "Geheime Reichssache” stamp on the Jäger Report is unlike other known examples of that stamp and thus shows that the report itself was forged by the Soviets

There was a war on - especially in the East, where the Germans faced an enemy using Bolshevik methods, and soldiers on both sides were brutalized by the nature of the fighting

Communists were Jews were partisans: the actions of the German forces in the East were directed against Communists and people susceptible to Communist appeals

Holy moly, even Hilberg admitted that the Einsatzgruppen didn’t kill Jews without a security reason

Only a fraction of Soviet Jews were killed - which proves that there was no policy to kill Jews in occupied USSR

It was physically impossible for the Einsatzgruppen to kill so many Jews, e.g., the 12-man EK in Lithuania said to be responsible for murdering nearly 135,000 Lithuanian Jews within 6 months

Even exterminationist evidence shows that not all Jews were supposedly killed - the Ereignismeldungen ov the Einsatzgruppen show that Jews were put to useful labor or lived in ghettos; there are too many exceptions for mass murder of the Jews in the East to have been the rule

The Jews had declared war on Germany, so the Germans were fighting in defense against the Jews

Bad stuff happened, including Jews being shot, but not whatever bad stuff you're bringing up - I don’t deny Jews were shot but not whichever Jews are being discussed and any Jews shot were not killed as part of the Holocaust

These supposed shootings don’t fit into a valid definition of the Holocaust (1 - the deliberate Nazi plan to try to bring about the biological extinction of the Jewish race in Europe, 2 - gas chambers, 3 - the 6 million)

Where are the mass graves? (or the Frog Priest hasn’t found real mass graves with children’s bodies - variations on this theme)

All you’ve got in the way of forensics are the SEC investigations, which are nothing but Communist propaganda

Supposed photographs of Einsatzgruppen atrocities and mass murder either must be staged, modded or show crimes by NKVD and blamed on Germans; the photographs were crudely doctored which exterminationists try explaining away as Soviet reprographic patina; there is no evidence that what such photographs are claimed to show are actually German units killing Jews (how are we supposed to know the people in the photos are Jewish?)

What was really going on in the occupied USSR was a series of interethnic conflicts, as proven by locals fighting against Jews who’d exploited them or supported the earlier Soviet occupation; the units involved in these killings weren't commanded by German officers

The assignments of the Einsatzgruppen were supposedly to gather intelligence, fight partisans, inspect prisons, deal with Communists, pacify areas, exterminate Jews - which was it?

The confessions of alleged perpetrators were false

The witnesses are unreliable (e.g., geysers of blood at Babi Yar)
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:20 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:.... but were actually carried out by a range of German forces, including ..... units of the Wehrmacht.
Squadron Signal publishes books containing German army wartime photographs, ostensibly for blokes painting model solders. In the 70s, in one book there is a series of photos of normal army troops beating eastern Jews and forcing them to clean their vehicles. The caption said. "Please note these men's uniforms indicate they are Heer and not Waffen SS, suggesting atrocities took place in all service branches".

That was pretty good information in a 1970's book aimed at German army fans, with little knowledge of history. It told the truth.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:.... but were actually carried out by a range of German forces, including ..... units of the Wehrmacht.
Squadron Signal publishes books containing German army wartime photographs, ostensibly for blokes painting model solders. In the 70s, in one book there is a series of photos of normal army troops beating eastern Jews and forcing them to clean their vehicles. The caption said. "Please note these men's uniforms indicate they are Heer and not Waffen SS, suggesting atrocities took place in all service branches".

That was pretty good information in a 1970's book aimed at German army fans, with little knowledge of history. It told the truth.
That's interesting. Thanks.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:29 am

I just thought of another one, related to the hoaxing of the Jäger Report: holy moly, the Jäger Report wound up with the Russian Communists - it never even reached Berlin
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:50 am

Most deniers awknowlage the EZ shootings. Even Faurisson does.
They just tend to attempt an explanation as to why it happened, such as Butts's horrific attempt at justification.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:14 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Most deniers awknowlage the EZ shootings. Even Faurisson does.
They just tend to attempt an explanation as to why it happened, such as Butts's horrific attempt at justification.
I think it is worse than that even.

Judging from what I've read in discussion forums, collected above, most deniers either deny these murders - or obfuscate what the Germans were up to in the East, minimize the scope of the killings, or rationalize or try explaining them away. Sometimes deniers cheerlead for the killers, passing out kudos for dealing with partisans or Communists.

Some deniers acknowledge "executions" and "excesses" - but that's either part of their debate tactic (gas chambers 24/7) or because they think they can give a little to take a lot. In fact, speaking of Faurisson, the French phrase I quoted above is from Faurission and, IIRC, he distorted Hilberg at the Zundel trial with the aim of minimizing the open-air killings - a standard bit of denier BS. What I quoted was picked up from this blog piece by former denier Christian Lindtner excoriating Faurisson and Graf for their writings on the Holocaust. Lindtner's item was a reply to Graf (see below) and dealt at some length with Graf's denial of the open-air shootings - and tangentially with Faurisson on the Jäger Report.

Graf's open note to Lindtner, which was published in Incoherent History, is well worth reading - it trades in many of the "arguments" I listed above (indeed, I got some of them from Graf's piece) and is a marvel of obfuscation and dishonesty. If it is thought that deniers acknowledge the Einsatzgruppen murders, it will need to be explained why Graf, a leading revisionist and part of the "three stooges" known as MGK, would write the following:
the Soviet forensic investigations only proved that many people (Jews and non-Jews) had indeed died in German captivity, and that the Germans had indeed carried out executions – something no serious revisionist has ever disputed. They did not produce a shred of evidence for the large-scale massacres claimed by Soviet propagandists, Jewish and German Holocaust historians and Danish Sanskrit scholars.
Acknowledging some executions - of unspecified nature and intent - but not "large-scale massacres" - get this - "claimed by Soviet propagandists, Jewish and German Holocaust historians"! - is NOT acknowledging the open-air murders as described by Hilberg, Browning, Angrick & Klein, Dieckmann, and others.

Graf describes SK 1005 as a
fairy tale
and adds in relation to the murders and clean-up/cover-up operation that
It goes without saying that the splendid German scholars whose works Lindtner has studied so diligently and who, in his distinguished opinion, embody "traditional German scholarship at its best” never give a thought to such irksome facts. Like Lindtner himself, they are "paper historians” (an apt term coined by Robert Faurisson) who are living far from the physical reality of things in their world of documents and books.
In other words, Fauri and Graf say (almost) no killings (not of the type historians have written about anyway), heavens forbid, no cover-up - and the Holocaust fairy tale can't be believed because rumors about Einsatzgruppen mass murder are missing meaningful field and forensic studies.

Graf further writes of the postwar investigations and trials that perpetrator (Blobel)
confessions were not worth the paper they were written upon.

For some reason, about events for which confessions were not part of the prosecution (NMT Trial 9), Graf sees fit to add that
confessions had frequently been extorted by barbarous torture. A well-known case is Rudolf Höss, who after three days of merciless beating by a British torture team led by the Jew Bernard Clark confessed to having gassed 2.5 million Jews up to November 1943.
Of the West German trials of perpetrators, Graf writes that
it is hardly an exaggeration to say that most of the "evidence” for the holocaust was fabricated by the West German justice.
By this point, Graf has veered far off his path - from Blobel to Hilberg and Sobibór and the Communist regime of East Germany! Talk about obfuscation via muddying of waters, diversionary feints, and well poisoning . . .

Graf further "acknowledges" the evidence for and actions of the Einsatzgruppen by describing the EG Reports in these terms:
The "Ereignismeldungen” were supposedly found by the Allies in the Berlin RSHA. That the Germans let this sort of incriminating material fall into the hands of their enemies is strikingly odd. . . . The alleged slaughter of 33,711 Ukrainian Jews at Babi Yar near Kiev is the most notorious massacre ascribed to the Germans on the Eastern Front. This figure appears in an Einsatzgruppen report from 7 October 1941.26 According to the established version of the facts, these 33,711 Jews were shot and their bodies thrown into the ravine of Babij Yar on 29 September 1941. But the first witnesses told completely different stories: . . . So the report from 7 October 1941, which mentions an imaginary slaughter, is a fraud. This means that all other Einsatzgruppen reports are equally suspect from the beginning.
Again, outright denial. From Graf.

Followed by more absolute Grafian BS:
Had the Germans planned the physical extermination of the Jewish population, they would of course have killed children and old people first; able-bodied adults would perhaps have been temporarily spared, because they could have been used as slave-laborers. As a matter of fact, solid documentary evidence shows that Jewish children and old people were not exterminated.
This nonsense is so far afield with so much evidence against it one wonders why Graf bothers try peddling it.

Graf's conclusion:
All this proves that the shootings committed by the Einsatzgruppen, the Ordnungspolizei and the SS in no way possessed the scope ascribed to them by the court historians.
After which, in the course of taking up other points made by Lindtner, Graf manages to deny the Nazis' use of gas vans in the East (more "grotesque forgeries") and quibble uselessly about Himmler's Sonthofen speech.

Acknowledge widespread mass-murder aimed at rendering occupied territory Judenrein, with nearly a million and a half Jewish victims? Graf? I don't think so.

For deniers like been-there, ralphgordon, the Little Grey Rabbit, Dogzilla et al running from the mass murders in the east is business as usual - and one need only review the JREF HD threads or look at old or new RODOH threads to watch obfuscation, rationalization, minimization, and outright denial in action.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:23 am

1. Jaeger himself acknowledged the report.

2. Gas vans have been documented and attested to by numerous independent sources.

3. SK1005 has been proven by a magnitude of evidence, not the least of hitch a series of enigma descriptions that were highly incriminating.

4. Multiple EZG deserters made extensive reports to Swiss military intelligence.

Give it up {!#%@}.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:29 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:... obfuscation, rationalization, minimization, and outright denial in action.
Lol - not intending to hijack, but for a moment there I thought that you might be following our Japan Prime Minister and his rightest supporters.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 am

Jeff_36 wrote:1. Jaeger himself acknowledged the report.

2. Gas vans have been documented and attested to by numerous independent sources.

3. SK1005 has been proven by a magnitude of evidence, not the least of hitch a series of enigma descriptions that were highly incriminating.

4. Multiple EZG deserters made extensive reports to Swiss military intelligence.

Give it up {!#%@}.
Yup. (Jäger generally admitted to reporting the murders in Lithuania - his interrogators didn't have the Jäger Report itself before his suicide and IIRC Jäger mentioned the situation reports - but tried pinning the murders on Hamann - the "rogue killers" option - presenting himself as a mere desk kind of guy.)

On a side note, thinking of Jäger: deniers really struggle with the Baltics - whether in discussion focused on what happened there in 1941 or in related discussions (Wannsee, for example). Those I've debated with cannot bring themselves to agree with their own tepid and forced admissions about "executions" and "excesses." Maryzilla being one of the clumsiest and most insipid of that ilk.

To add to the above: Recently, David Cole went after Faurisson, amongst other things, because Faurisson "froze" on the stand when asked about the Einstazgruppen during the Zundel trial; this little slap became part of a gloriously enjoyable chimp-fight - involving Cole, BS, and Faurisson - it's been a blast to follow.

And here's from Thomas Dalton (I read this recycled on Paul Eisen's noxious website):
A more rational explanation is this: that the Einsatzgruppen and affiliated groups shot far fewer people, and far fewer Jews, than is claimed. No one doubts that they did kill many people, perhaps thousands, of all varieties. There was a war going on, after all. No one doubts that the bodies were frequently and unceremoniously dumped in pits. But to have killed well over 1 million Jews, buried them all, dug them all up a year or two later, burned them all to ash on wood fires, sifted through all the ash, and then hidden the ashes—this is impossible.
http://pauleisen.blogspot.com/2014/10/t ... stery.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Perhaps thousands"? "There was a war going on"? Jesus wept. ("There was a war going on" is an almost verbatim DBB entry . . . #93 to be exact.)

Dalton's is the usual denier claptrap regarding the Einsatzgruppen; Cole's position is the unusual one - thus so many voices on CODOH and elsewhere going hysterical about Cole.

I'd love to see a bunch of deniers pop on here and fess up to the open-air shootings - with a forthright discussion of the scope of the murders, their targets and aims, how they were executed and reported, their place in the escalation of Nazi Judenpolitik during 1941, and the nature and quality of the evidence for these extermination actions. There are a lot of things I would like to see but won't.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:46 pm

https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... &start=250" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is a funny and revealing exchange at Rodoh on Graf where the Lesser Bunny uses my points about HD and the issues in the Lindtner-Graf back and forth as an occasion to wail about Lindtner and critique my posting practices, which included generally ignoring his silliness. The open-air shootings dealt with in the standard if dumbed down denier fashion, egomaniac flavor, which BRoI specializes in: divert and obfuscate. The clown wouldn't even engage on the substance his case is so embarrassing to him ...
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:52 pm

Yup. (Jäger generally admitted to reporting the murders in Lithuania - his interrogators didn't have the Jäger Report itself before his suicide and IIRC Jäger mentioned the situation reports - but tried pinning the murders on Hamann - the "rogue killers" option - presenting himself as a mere desk kind of guy.)

I thought Jager used the "superior orders" defence.
We also have documentary evidence (like the Kube correspondence) proving it all.
There is no way around the depositions given to the Swiss either.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:21 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Yup. (Jäger generally admitted to reporting the murders in Lithuania - his interrogators didn't have the Jäger Report itself before his suicide and IIRC Jäger mentioned the situation reports - but tried pinning the murders on Hamann - the "rogue killers" option - presenting himself as a mere desk kind of guy.)

I thought Jager used the "superior orders" defence.
We also have documentary evidence (like the Kube correspondence) proving it all.
There is no way around the depositions given to the Swiss either.
There's no way around it - but Jäger did try weaseling to save his own neck - combining a superior orders plea with the argument that he'd not done it either - and asserting that inwardly he had not accepted the policy: basically, Jäger's bizarre defense was that Heydrich had announced the policy to kill the Jews and that thus he, Jäger, had not intervened in the killing actions Hamann and his Lithuanian partisans had set into motion to fulfill Heydrich's order. Jäger tried making out that the orders of his superiors did not lead him personally to oversee the murders of Lithuanian Jews because the orders had bypassed him and on their basis his underlings had actually organized the exterminations, ordered the individual actions, and carried them out: "things happened by themselves." In the end, Jäger hanged himself instead of defending himself with this tendentious, fraught argument, which even he seemed to realize was nonsensical - the kind of stuff deniers like Dogzilla at JREF tried spinning over 50 years later.

There's a 2011 book on Jäger in German - Wolfram Wette, Karl Jäger. Mörder der litauischen Juden - which Roberto Muehlenkamp relied on heavily for his excellent HC blog series on the Jäger Report. In the last part of Muehlenkamp's series, he writes about Jäger's interrogations, which took place in 1959, before the report was made available to the German prosecutors:
Jäger’s most knowledgeable critic may have been SS-Hauptsturmführer Heinrich Schmitz, who succeeded Hamann in October 1941 as Jäger’s deputy. When interrogated in Ludwigsburg in 1960, Schmitz testified that due to his obsession with numbers Jäger had been the butt of jokes from his subordinates. On the whole his position as Commander of Security Police had overburdened him, and he had thus clung to seemingly tangible matters like the numbers of people shot. According to a later deposition by Schmitz, Jäger had only reached his position due to a wartime lack of personnel. As he had never held a regular job before, he felt insecure in the presence of any man who, like Schmitz, had undergone a regular career as a public servant and was familiar with administrative work. The office work had largely been done by Jäger’s subordinates Schmitz, Porst, Rauca and Stütz. SS-Hauptscharführer Rauca had been in charge of Jewish matters. (Wette, Jäger, p. 149; Schmitz’ interrogations referred to by Wette’s sources took place on 15.1.1960 and on 6.3, 9.3. and 4.12.1962).

The critical assessments of Jäger’s lack of competence as a police commander, however, say little about the extent of his responsibility as a perpetrator. As commander of EK3 and then Commander of Security Police and SD (KdS) in Lithuania, Jäger bore the overall responsibility for the deaths of the 138,272 Lithuanian Jews and others who had been murdered until 9 February 1942, the date of his handwritten list shown above. Besides being formally the man in charge, Jäger also meticulously watched over his competences. In case of disputes about competences with other Einsatzkommandos Jäger effectively asserted his position. Dr. Erich Ehrlinger, former commander of Sonderkommando 1b, which was replaced in early July 1941 by EK3, described Jäger in 1959 as an elder gentleman of simple thinking, who was zealous about his actual or presumed competences. Jäger had been "extremely pigheaded" ("ausgesprochen dickköpfig") and considered himself the essential person on site. (Wette, Jäger, page 150, citing Ehrlinger’s deposition on 30.7.1959, Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen Ludwigsburg, 5 AR-Z 14/1958. Beschuldigter: Jäger, Karl, Bd. IV, Bl. 2501-3002 (Bl. 2677)). The police officials of EK3 and the KdS in Wilna and Siauliai, who murdered with the assistance of local auxiliaries just like their colleagues in Kaunas, were clearly subject to Jäger’s command. The Regional Commissioner of Siauliai, Hans Gewecke, testified after the war that Jäger had on 3 September 1941 ordered him to "liquidate all Jews in Schaulen" (Wette, Jäger, page 150, citing Aktenvermerk Hans Gewecke, in: Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen, Ludwigsburg, 5 AR-Z 14/58. Beschuldigter: Jäger, Karl, Bd. II, Bl. 785). At a later time Jäger had ordered Gewecke to liquidate parts of two ghettos in Siauliai, which Gewecke however refused to do with his back covered by Reich Commissioner Hinrich Lohse (Wette, Jäger, page 151, citing Curilla, Wolfgang, Die deutsche Ordnungspolizei und der Holocaust im Baltikum und in Weiβrussland, p. 891). . . .

Jäger was arrested on 10 April 1959 and taken into investigative custody on suspicion of murder at the Heidelberg district court, where he was first interrogated by officials of the Baden-Württemberg federal state’s Office of Criminal Investigation (Landeskriminalamt). In these interrogations he didn’t deny that between 1941 and 1943 he had been an SS-Standartenführer, commander of Einsatzkommando 3 and Commander of Security Police and Security Service (KdS) for the Lithuania General District. Yet he denied having had anything to do with the shootings of Lithuanian Jews. There had been executions, for sure, but the orders for these had come "from above". He said that he had had to obey "because there was a war going on", but at the same time denied having issued any instructions himself. (Wette, Jäger, pp. 165, citing Jäger’s deposition on 10.4.1959, in: Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen Ludwigsburg, 5 AR-Z 14/1958. Beschuldigter: Jäger, Karl, Bd. I, Bl. 235-241). Two months later the Central Office in Ludwigsburg, why by then had taken over the investigations, had Jäger transferred to central hospital on the Hohenasperg. . . .

While he could not deny the murder of the Jews in Lithuania, Jäger claimed that he had not wanted them and they had caused him much suffering. He tried to make believe that the massacres and liquidations had not been carried out by him but by others, especially Hamann and the Lithuanian Lieutenant Bronius Norkus. The murder operations had happened without any orders of his and all he had done was sit in his office, receive the reports with numbers of those executed and transmit them to Einsatzgruppe A in Riga. Jäger’s key exculpatory claims on pages 10 and 11 of the interrogation record translate as follows:
When I arrived in Kauen (Kaunas) the shootings of Jews were already under way, i.e. Jews had already been shot and were being shot. These shootings were supposed to have been carried out by the Lithuanian auxiliary police. Who told me so I don't know; I hardly think that I received a service report about this from Hamann or Wolf. On whose instructions these shootings were carried out is not known to me. Neither can I say whether Ehrlinger or Wolf with their people took an active part. Tolerate it they certainly did, for otherwise the shootings by the Lithuanians would not have continued. I myself also didn't interdict these shootings, because through Heydrich's address on occasion of the meeting in Berlin it had been established that the Jews in the East must be shot. Besides this address by Heydrich I had until then received no more detailed oral or written order from the RSHA or from another entity.

I saw this statement of Heydrich's as a binding order that upon taking up my activity in the East the Jews were to be shot. Therefore I did nothing against these shootings. Inside however I rejected them and considered it cruel and terrible that people were being killed or were to be killed only because of their faith and their race. I wish to point out, however, that I never issued an order to any member of my office to shoot a certain number of Jews or to shoot Jews at all. I also didn’t have to do this, because things happened all by themselves.

How many Jews had already been shot until my arrival or during the first days I cannot say, but there may have been several thousand. As I remember these shootings were carried out in the old Forts 7 and 9 in Kauen. Whether at the time of my arrival or shortly thereafter Jews were also shot in Wilna, I no longer know. I consider it quite possible, however.

When I arrived at Kauen there was a Lithuanian police there authorized by the Germans. The commander of the security police was the Lithuanian Cenkus. Furthermore there was a so-called shooting detachment, about 50 to 100 Lithuanians strong, under the Lithuanian lieutenant Norkus.

Norkus and his detachment were later subordinated to Hamann and carried out the shootings of Jews together with him. Hamann acted in complete independence. I never gave him shooting orders. I only received reports about the number of those shot from case to case. These were then reported via Stahlecker to the RSHA in the Action Reports (Ereignismeldungen) together with other situation reports that bore my signature. The Action Reports were put together from the various sections' individual reports by my office - "topkick" Porst – and submitted to me for signature.
. . . After blatantly lying about his involvement in the killings and trying to shift the blame onto others during the interrogations, Karl Jäger took his life in the night from 21 to 22 June 1959, by hanging himself in his cell with an electric cable. Before he had written farewell letters to the family of his son-in-law Sepp Fackler and to his interrogator Aedtner, in which he claimed that he had committed no crimes and heaped no guilt on himself, furthermore lamenting the "terrible fate" he had met (Wette, Jäger, p. 168). . . .
. . . I know and am conscious that the co-defendants will now put all blame on me. I pardon them.

I emphasize and again state that I never condoned the shootings of the Jews and that I had been placed in this position during the war against my inner self. I never ordered shootings of Jews, I never gave an execution order, so God help me! I committed no crime and heaped no guilt onto me. You, Mr. Aedtner, and Mr. [unreadable] I thank for the exemplarily humane interrogation and for all the good you did for me personally. Karl Jäger
Muehlenkamp's series, which brings to light significant information about this critical document, appeared on the HC blog in 2012.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Balsamo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:31 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Revisionists have made many silly - and mutually contradictory - "arguments" about the murder of Jews in the "wild East" - what Hilberg groups as the “open-air shootings” in the occupied USSR. These murders are often thought of as Einsatzgruppen operations but were actually carried out by a range of German forces, including the SS-Einsatzgruppen, police battalions, Waffen-SS, police assigned to the HSSPFs, units of the Wehrmacht, and local auxiliary recruits.

Below is my start on a list of some revisionist “thoughts” on the open-air shootings. I've compiled this list from actual posts and writings of revisionists (recall that, according to Hilberg, over 1.4 million Jews perished in the open-air shootings in the East). I should say that I think every one of the arguments below has been discussed at length on different forums and in other venues. I've not, however, seen denier "thoughts" on the open-air shootings pulled together.

I'd like folks to add to my list other "arguments" made by revisionists about these actions, ones that I've forgotten or am not aware of . . . and then hear from any revisionists who still post in this subforum what is their view of the open-air killings - are there propositions here that they want to defend or other, better revisionist arguments about these actions?

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Einsatzgruppen were actually battling partisans; any killings were the result of security and counter-insurgency operations against threats to the pacification of areas in the East; Himmler confirmed this at Posen: all you have is evidence of anti-partisan actions which may have become excessive at time

There is no order that ties the security operations in occupied areas to a German plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe

Einsatzgruppen units engaged in nothing more than ethnic cleansing and population removal: intending to make regions free of Jews does not prove an intent to kill the Jews

There is no evidence Jews in particular were targeted by the Einsatzgruppen or killed by them because they were Jews

At best you can show that there were some rogue operations without the direction or approval of higher ups (more sophisticated version: "les sources dont il s´inspire sont inconnues”)

You can’t trust the numbers in the German reports - they were inflated by commanders on the ground to impress their superiors

The Einsatzgruppen reports (Ereignismeldungen) are hearsay at best - there’s no evidence to show what was claimed in the reports was actually carried out

There are no documents proving extermination: the Ereignismeldungen/Jäger/Stahlecker don’t report exterminations but instead shootings in security actions - sure, Jews were killed but only as part of neutralizing the Judeo-Bolshevik elements that were perceived as a threat to the occupation

The Ereignismeldungen are fabrications (the Jäger Report is a Soviet forgery, ditto Stahlecker, etc) - the authenticity of the EG reports has not been documented

The Soviets doctored the reports to align them with the Communist narrative used in the postwar trials

The "Geheime Reichssache” stamp on the Jäger Report is unlike other known examples of that stamp and thus shows that the report itself was forged by the Soviets

There was a war on - especially in the East, where the Germans faced an enemy using Bolshevik methods, and soldiers on both sides were brutalized by the nature of the fighting

Communists were Jews were partisans: the actions of the German forces in the East were directed against Communists and people susceptible to Communist appeals

Holy moly, even Hilberg admitted that the Einsatzgruppen didn’t kill Jews without a security reason

Only a fraction of Soviet Jews were killed - which proves that there was no policy to kill Jews in occupied USSR

It was physically impossible for the Einsatzgruppen to kill so many Jews, e.g., the 12-man EK in Lithuania said to be responsible for murdering nearly 135,000 Lithuanian Jews within 6 months

Even exterminationist evidence shows that not all Jews were supposedly killed - the Ereignismeldungen ov the Einsatzgruppen show that Jews were put to useful labor or lived in ghettos; there are too many exceptions for mass murder of the Jews in the East to have been the rule

The Jews had declared war on Germany, so the Germans were fighting in defense against the Jews

Bad stuff happened, including Jews being shot, but not whatever bad stuff you're bringing up - I don’t deny Jews were shot but not whichever Jews are being discussed and any Jews shot were not killed as part of the Holocaust

These supposed shootings don’t fit into a valid definition of the Holocaust (1 - the deliberate Nazi plan to try to bring about the biological extinction of the Jewish race in Europe, 2 - gas chambers, 3 - the 6 million)

Where are the mass graves? (or the Frog Priest hasn’t found real mass graves with children’s bodies - variations on this theme)

All you’ve got in the way of forensics are the SEC investigations, which are nothing but Communist propaganda

Supposed photographs of Einsatzgruppen atrocities and mass murder either must be staged, modded or show crimes by NKVD and blamed on Germans; the photographs were crudely doctored which exterminationists try explaining away as Soviet reprographic patina; there is no evidence that what such photographs are claimed to show are actually German units killing Jews (how are we supposed to know the people in the photos are Jewish?)

What was really going on in the occupied USSR was a series of interethnic conflicts, as proven by locals fighting against Jews who’d exploited them or supported the earlier Soviet occupation; the units involved in these killings weren't commanded by German officers

The assignments of the Einsatzgruppen were supposedly to gather intelligence, fight partisans, inspect prisons, deal with Communists, pacify areas, exterminate Jews - which was it?

The confessions of alleged perpetrators were false

The witnesses are unreliable (e.g., geysers of blood at Babi Yar)

Those are great examples of denier's trick, sometimes even used in political debate for example. Ok, 80% of your examples are pure trash...but some are more elaborate and can mislead anyone who shows some disposition to be misled.

A few example:
- Indeed EK had also among their mission to fight partisan – mainly by killing civilians in reprisal + they had to kill as many jews as possible “as partisan” = the Jews were killed because they were partisans. Two right affirmations for one dishonnest conclusion.

- There is no order that ties the security operations in occupied areas to a German plan to exterminate all the Jews in Europe.

Again, it is not wrong, it is just dishonest: security operations indeed included or implies massive arrests and mass murders of Jews, but not on a European level…The insertion of "all the Jews in Europe" intends to ridicule the first reality..

- There was a war on - especially in the East, where the Germans faced an enemy using Bolshevik methods, and soldiers on both sides were brutalized by the nature of the fighting.

It is also true...but used with dishonnesty - which seems to be the key word in Denier's arguments - Bartov does not say anything else...But it eludes the real question which is how this situation was encouraged and developped to facilitate the implementation of a pre-existent policy...
While the argument can explain some behaviour on the front line, and to some extend how the pow's were treated, it is irrelevant as far as the EK - who were not on the frontline - are concerned. they acted with the same brutality - even though on a smaller scale - in Poland whose soldiers were NOT using bolshevik methods.

What i want to stress out here is that it is not the argument the problem, but how they are used. A fact - even used by deniers - can still be a fact. One should focus on the dishonnest use of those facts.

Of course those facts are mixed with pure trash as i said and not even worth commenting. But those usually come out from Deniers in terminal phase, so to speak.

There is one you forgot to mention, StatMec.
“If one had wanted to kill millions of Jews, one would have used another methods”
, and its variances (the germans were too brilliant or too organize to have done it this or that way).

I always find it almost amusing that besides pretending to be expert in medicine, biology, archeology or history, they also have the pretention to be expert in mass murdering people.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:34 pm

Great addition - and I agree with the point you make - deniers blend fact and fiction to create a misleading argument about these actions. Some of their assertions, as you say, are just plain wrong, others put evidence together in "funny" ways to mislead readers. Another example to go along with those you gave, Jäger's report was indeed not sent to Berlin - but so what?: it was instead sent to his superior in Riga, who used it in compiling longer reports on the activities of Einsatzgruppe A.

The lack of a comprehensive order tied to the extermination of all of Europe's Jews is an especially odd - and formalistic argument - in that the first sweep of the Einsatzgruppen occurred in summer-fall 1941, mostly before the decision to begin removing Jews en masse from central Europe (September 1941, with those deportations commencing in October - and without any apparent instruction at the time that these central European deportees be murdered). As you know, I've made the argument rather that the open-air shootings were "practical experience," cited at Wannsee, in what could be done and how far the Germans could go in getting rid of Jews - that is to say, these killings were not in mid-1941 part of a general order for a continent-wide extermination of Jews but contributed to the Final Solution policy as you and I have discussed. Again - so what? 100s of 1000s of Jews were murdered in 1941 before the December events we've discussed, before Wannsee and the other two Final Solution conferences, before Einsatz Reinhard commenced . . . you used the word "transition" for this period, and these open-air killings were part of that transition.

I do find the brutalization argument beside the point, however, in that the Nazi killing squads, following recruitment and orientation, let's call it, went directly into action in the rear of the army, following its advance and carrying out orders from late June, well before the hellish fighting along the front would have had the impact claimed. The driving force for the actions of the German police units did not come from the effects of war on soldiers up and down the front but rather from a series of orders and actions decided in Berlin and by commanders in the field.

That said, I fully agree with your point: one more example, yes, some Jews were put to work, a minority, for example, in Lithuania, but so what? That accurate observation doesn't negate that by war's end around 90% of Lithuanian Jews (and a similar % for the Baltics as a whole) had been killed with, by far most of them by the Germans and local units under their control, on purpose - if that's not genocide, I do not know what is.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Balsamo » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:00 pm

I do find the brutalization argument beside the point, however, in that the Nazi killing squads, following recruitment and orientation, let's call it, went directly into action in the rear of the army, following its advance and carrying out orders from late June, well before the hellish fighting along the front would have had the impact claimed. The driving force for the actions of the German police units did not come from the effects of war on soldiers up and down the front but rather from a series of orders and actions decided in Berlin and by commanders in the field.
I was saying the same thing...
So, you see everything happens...even both of us agreeing 100%

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:42 am

Balsamo wrote:
I do find the brutalization argument beside the point, however, in that the Nazi killing squads, following recruitment and orientation, let's call it, went directly into action in the rear of the army, following its advance and carrying out orders from late June, well before the hellish fighting along the front would have had the impact claimed. The driving force for the actions of the German police units did not come from the effects of war on soldiers up and down the front but rather from a series of orders and actions decided in Berlin and by commanders in the field.
I was saying the same thing...
So, you see everything happens...even both of us agreeing 100%
LOL - and Mary's dodges noted - it seems - how shall I put this? - I guess no deniers have an answer or they all feel it's one of those questions that shouldn't be asked!
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:49 pm

This is where Monstrous should post his proofs that the Soviets fabricated/edited the Ereignismeldungen.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by NathanC » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:16 am

This is where Monstrous should post his proofs that the Soviets fabricated/edited the Ereignismeldungen.
I'm not counting on it ;)

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25117
NathanC wrote:Deniers avoid the topic with the same vigor that they avoid any honest discussion of the west German Trials, for the same reason: it completely demolishes their fantasy narrative. That is, both "Jewish Bolshevism" and their favorite dodge of the Soviets manufacturing evidence for the Holocaust.After all, the Soviet Policy is the complete opposite of what Deniers want it to be. I.e., instead of exaggerating or propagandizing the Holocaust, the Soviets did their best to bury it. Or at least, to hide the fact that the majority of the Victims were Jews.

A good example is of course the Jaeger Report. Of course, it explicitly identifies that Jews were killed because they were Jews and for no other reason. Of course, it was completely the opposite of the Narrative that the Soviets were trying to spin, which is why they buried it for several years after they found it in Lithuania.
If I'm not mistaken, the same general policy was true for the EG killings. Jonathan Harrison at HC once shared an article about this very subject.
http://artsandsciences.colorado.edu/mag ... -purposes/

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:41 am

To help Monstrous get started on his case against the Ereignismeldungen and TuLBs, here are some of the posts on this topic that have been made in the "Posen" thread:
Monstrous:
Monstrous wrote:The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread but we may note that even Believers have found the enormous numbers of supposed copies strange. Thus, quoting Butz in "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century": "Even Reitlinger seems puzzled by the existence of these reports and other documents, because he remarks: “It is not easy to see why the murderers left such an abundant testimony behind them, for in spite of their wide circulation list, Knobloch’s [the Gestapo official who edited the reports] reports seem to have been designed primarily to appeal to Himmler and Heydrich."".
Me:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Translation: "The widely discussed and researched copies of the Ereignismeldungen and TuLBs are a horrific problem for deniers and we may note that the actual texts written by historians, when not quoted out of context, make abundantly clear the nature and uses of such reports. Anyhoo, I am just throwing this BS in, even though I say it's not "really a topic," to spread some manure around the thread."
Monstrous:
Monstrous wrote:Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Cntury" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this. Himmler in his speeches stating that the EG killed partisan relatives were not sufficient and the critical pages in speeches were "retyped" for greater effect. Remember, the Soviets had access to all the archives in Berlin after the conquest.
Balsamo:
Balsamo wrote:. . . Well there is a post on this forum as well as on codoh about a video of Vincent Reynouard (you might know him) who is based on the final reports of EG action in the east, that is the compilation of all the formers reports. this report was written in Berlin and published at 65 copies. Even Revisionists don't call them fake or edited. Those reports came out in 1942, long before the end of 1943. And as I said, 65 copies were distributed.
In those, you find murder of women, children, elderly, men, all in some way justified. That was no secret! And, you just cannot fabricate or edit a 3300 pages report which was published at 65 copies. It is just too risky if you understand the problem. of course, technically you can, but you'll face the risk of being debunked if any other those 65 copies resurfaces. You just don't do that.
Now those reports sums up the killing at 465.000 or so people, 90% of them being Jews. That is in the context of the war against Partisan, Nick Terry correctly pointed out that some other actions were not taken into consideration in those final reports. The two fellow revisionists are of course trying to downgrade that number, and to extent the time period to one year, when it is only 6 months.
What is your next step, to pretend that 90% of the Partisans were Jews?
Monstrous:
Monstrous wrote:Revisionists may have different views. Reynouard may not think the reports are fabricated. Butz in his book did not. The relevant chapter can be read here online (Einsatzgruppen arguments are at the end):
http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/10.html

Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.

The Believers cite these document but have no arguments regarding the absurdities involved in, for example, quickly digging up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burning them and leaving no traces. Or air photos showing no burning or graves at Babi Yar.
http://codoh.com/library/document/1493/
Me:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches.
Or
Monstrous wrote:The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread . . .
Apparently we get to pick.
Monstrous wrote:When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Cntury" regarding arguments for this)
No, you make the argument. I will revive a thread for you for just this purpose. Do you know Little Grey Rabbit - he started the AHF thread on postwar Posen testimonies? This same claim about the Ereignismeldungen went rather poorly for him when he tried it. Want to join him in his ignominy on this? Post your explanation here. You will need to clarify whether the Soviets supposedly fabricated or edited the reports - or both.

But thank you for speaking up. This should be fun.
Monstrous wrote:they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
But tossing out 5/e THOTTC isn't an argument. So you're starting behind the 8-ball. You don't yet have the Ereignismeldungen prepared by anyone other than RSHA IV A 1, compiling summary reports from ground-level field reports. You can't use an unproven assertion to prove an unrelated claim, for crissakes.
Monstrous wrote:Himmler in his speeches stating that the EG killed partisan relatives were not sufficient and the critical pages in speeches were "retyped" for greater effect. Remember, the Soviets had access to all the archives in Berlin after the conquest.
Explain what happened, dipshit, instead of piling "might have" on top of "could have" on top of "why not?"
Me:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Tsk, tsk, post your proofs - not suppositions - in the EG thread.

By the way, "Believers" cite these document but have no arguments" doesn't cut it. You need to cite whom you have in mind, because 1) we don't know what "Believers" are and 2) people on this forum have read historians and other scholars on this topic. So general statements like yours mean nothing.
Balsamo:
Balsamo wrote:
Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.
Because before you do, you have to be sure that all the copies have been found and under control. Otherwise, you'd expose yourself to be caught red handed if one of the existing copies appear. And I doubt that the Soviets would have been stupid enough to copy a forgery of 3300 pages 65 times.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:43 am

Balsamo wrote:
Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.
Because before you do, you have to be sure that all the copies have been found and under control. Otherwise, you'd expose yourself to be caught red handed if one of the existing copies appear. And I doubt that the Soviets would have been stupid enough to copy a forgery of 3300 pages 65 times.
One indeed has the nettlesome problem of contemporary “traces” of these reports in other people’s files, etc. Browning explains, e.g., how “In accordance with Heydrich’s orders, on October 30, 1941, Heinrich Müller of the Gestapo sent Foreign Minister Ribbentrop the first five “activity and situation reports” (Tãgigkeits- und Lageberichten) of the Sipo-SD Einsatzgruppen” (The Origins of the Final Solution, p 399).

And how “On November 26 Heydrich personally sent Ribbentrop a copy of the next report, for the entire month of October.” (p 401) This report openly declared that “The male Jews over 16, with the exception of doctors and Jewish Council elders, are being executed. This measure is still partly in progress. After the conclusion of the action, there will be only 500 Jewish women and children present in the Ostland”; it also stated hat in Belorussia “For its part the Einsatzgruppe of the Sipo-SD proceeds all the more intensively against the Jews,” citing many executions including of Jewish women. The report also declared that around the Dnieper, “The territory newly occupied by the commandos was made free of Jews.”

Now, with this background in mind, we can read in Browning (pp 401-402) that “the information in the single Foreign Office copy was widely disseminated and understood. The first five [TuLBs] were not sent directly to Ribbentrop but to the SS and police liaison desk known as D II under Undersecretary Martin Luther. . . . [T]he reports were next sent on to the neighboring Jewish desk, D III, of Franz Rademacher. The first five reports were summarized by Rademacher’s assistant, Frtiz Gebhard von Hahn. He noted, ‘An exact overview of the Jews liquidated in all three Reichskommissariaten cannot be obtained from the reports’ . . . Undersecretary Luther himself wrote a summary of the sixth [TuLB No. 6, mentioned above] report, noting that in the Ostland all male Jews over 16 other than doctors and council members would be executed, and that at the conclusion of the action only 500 Jewish women and children would be left alive. He also noted that 33,000 Jews in Kiev, 3,000 in Vitebsk and 5,000 east of the Dnieper had been shot. The summary was initialed by State Secretary Weizsaecker the day it was written.” (page 402)

So - following along - presumably, in DenierLand, not only the TuLBs were fabricated/edited by the Moscow Forgery Factories but also the Foreign Office summary based on them. Perhaps the Soviet forgery operation fabricated/edited the entire corpus of Third Reich records - or at least any that are inescapably embarrassing to odious liars like Monstrous - who now gets to provide us with sources for the Moscow Forgery Factories (names, dates, orders, drafts and final versions, proof of their work) and write a concise summary of their activities.
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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:26 pm

IIRC Balsamo's thread basically sonderbehandult all denier claims re the EZG reports.

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Re: Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:59 pm

Read, along with Nick Terry's replies in that thread, Nick Terry's THHP overview of the Ereignismeldungen and successor reports; Ronald Headland's Messages of Murder; and Hilary Earl's The Nuremberg SS-Einsatzgruppen Trial, 1945–1958 to get some background on the reports and how they were used in the NMT Einsatzgruppen trial. Those items are a good start for this discussion. Of course, we are waiting for Monstrous's proofs of Soviet fabrication/editing.
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