Treblkinka Mass Graves

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Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:10 am

The Polish Report is pretty damming.

It's safe to say that no one can deny the existence of mass graves at Treblinka. I was just wondering how much space would be needed to accommodate 700,000 corpses. I know that The polish report was clear that such space was there.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:59 am

Jeff_36 wrote:The Polish Report is pretty damming.

It's safe to say that no one can deny the existence of mass graves at Treblinka. I was just wondering how much space would be needed to accommodate 700,000 corpses. I know that The polish report was clear that such space was there.
From memory, there are 11 mass graves identified. The largest is 25 x 17 metres. The depth however could not be determined by the recent team's use of GPR, so we have to relay on the original Polish investigation, which actually excavated a grave. That would be around 7.5 metres deep.

Justice Lukaszkiewicz
"During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand".

As for the volume of a human body, there are a couple issues. For example, the large percentage of children making up the death toll. The holocaust deniers claim that an adult body has a certain volume, however we looked up adult contortionists and found that living breathing humans could fit into 4,212 cubic inches = 0.069022m³
Contortionist.jpg
In my mind, the volume of the mass graves is simply going to match the number of bodies buried. The Germans simply dug the graves as the need arose to bury the bodies. Please also remember, that the last victims were not buried at all but were cremated after being pulled out of the gas chambers, thus not all 800,000 victims were first buried.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:00 am

I think you said you read this thread?

IIRC, it also discusses the mass graves.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:08 am

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . how much space would be needed to accommodate 700,000 corpses. . . .
vs
Matthew Ellard wrote:. . . all 800,000 victims . . .
Gotta go with Matthew Ellard and the higher total of nearly 800,000 - by 31 December 1942 Höfle had cited 713,000+ victims already

So this subject has been discussed at great length over the years. A summary, with a great deal of attention to Bełzec for reasons explained in the text, was provided by Roberto Muehlenkamp in the HC Aktion Reinhard critique of Mattogno, Graf & Kues, pp 383-439 (download here). I am sure that the BLOB responds - you'd have to ask one of the 2 people on Earth who've read it.

More recent discussion - three years old now - ensued at the old JREF HD subforum, again with a focus on Bełzec, where Muehlenkamp responded to SnakeTongue in post post #2239 and discussion continued for a few pages.

This discussion has the benefit of someone calling itself Dogzilla mixing up Bełzec labor camp with Bełzec extermination camp and other mirth and merriment along the way.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:04 pm

I was under the impression that they straight up burned the corpses upon arrival after 1942. So only the first 700,000 would have been buried.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:28 pm

Apparently Floss from Sobibor, who installed the large pyres, arrived already in November 1942.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Floss wrote:Floss as remembered by fellow Treblinka SS officer Heinrich Matthes:
“ An SS-Oberscharführer or Hauptscharführer Floss arrived at this time [November 1942]...
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:59 pm

And don't forget that those weren't quickly and properly buried healthy bodies. Mostly starved ghetto dwellers, and many very young or old, were dumped onto the ground and into open pits for some time, and decomposition being so much faster when the remains are exposed to air and insects.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Hunt was bitching about the Staffordshire LIDAR not revealing any disturbances or something to that degree. I have no idea what he was insinuating there......... anyone who was here have any Ida what he was talking about? It was tough to understand him after a while.....

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:45 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I was under the impression that they straight up burned the corpses upon arrival after 1942. So only the first 700,000 would have been buried.
Not exactly, but I probably misread your post as meaning that one must account for 700,000 victims. I was thinking that one needs to account for the remains of all the victims.

Up to early September 1942, "only" 300,000+ (?) Jews had been murdered at Treblinka, before the new command and killing process was introduced ( I forget the exact number but recall something like 250,000 Warsaw and 50,000 Radom? - also some other parts of G-G?). I can't recall off-hand a breakdown of the corpses in the camp and how they were disposed of at the time of the reorganization of the camp overseen by Wirth and Stangl - basically last few days of August and early September. Some 1000s of corpses littered the camp, IIRC they were visible on entering the camp, scattered along the fences, basically everywhere; nor were the mass graves near the gas chambers even hidden yet, digging and burying couldn't keep pace with people DOA, shootings and gassings. At that time, 1000s of corpses were burnt to "clean the camp up"; others were left in mass graves and some of these were treated with lime IIRC (Krzepecki?). As to the %'s of cleaned-up and burnt vs left in graves, I don't know (I'm not at home today but will look this up later); for those burnt, you've got to account for ashes and what was left of the bones . . .

Floss: yeah, near the end of '42 IIRC . . .

Which complicates the problem from a pure math pov . . . I think Roberto has worked from what would be high-end estimates for number of corpses buried . . . but given the time at which Floss arrived, and deducting some for the 1000s burnt in September . . . and deducting for the 1000s (I forget how many but Höfle's telegram has the number) for December - and, bingo, you get back to under your 700,000 (now that I see what you mean) . . . plus cremains . . . right?

(I want to double-check the timing when the mass cremations began . . . )
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:20 pm

Sorry for fuzzy post . . . home now and checked on some things:

By end of August 1942, according to Wikipedia (not 100% reliable): 310,076 transported to TII.

What about the timing of the "Floss action"? Floss showing up doesn't equate to the start of the mass exhumations and cremations in earnest, so we can forget the early large-scale success . . . step by step:

What Mattogno & crew claim (Treblinka, p 148) is clearly dishonest and overstates the task (too high a victim count, truncated time span for starters):
The cremation is supposed to have taken place between April and the end of July 1943, so that nearly all 860,000 bodies are supposed to have been incinerated within 122 days, i.e.7,000 per day on two grates, or 3,500 per day per grate.
Given their erroneous starting premise, their calculations are worthless.

According to the HC White paper, p 445:
From Treblinka extermination camp there are reports of corpse burning as early as August and September 1942. [some noted in my post] These cremation procedures don’t seem to have been aimed at destroying all corpses in the graves, but rather at carbonizing the upper layers to stretch burial space and for hygienic purposes. The same may have applied to reported cremations in the months of October, November and December 1942, another possibility being that these were early and not very successful attempts at wholesale cremation, perhaps motivated by shortage of burial space and/or by complaints such as one from the Wehrmacht local commandant in Ostrow about the unbearable stench of corpses emanating from Treblinka because the Jews there were not sufficiently buried. Nevertheless, wholesale systematic, continued and eventually successful cremation of corpses at Treblinka started only after a visit of Himmler’s at the end of February/beginning of March 1943.
Thus dating the Floss action to late winter 1943.

Strawcynski, Escaping Hell in Treblinka, p 169: early part of 1943, no precise date.

Glazer, Trap with a Green Fence, p 29, has the burning operation starting in November 1942, I think he is referring to the first trials, see below.

Rajchman, The Last Jew of Treblinka, pp 84-88: inefficient attempts to burn the corpses in the mass graves began in December but these efforts only achieved 1000//day, so the Germans brought in “the Artist” (Floss. “tadellos” quoted) in January and the rail/pyre method was introduced at that time. (This sounds right to me, maybe a little early on the full-scale operation . . . )

Wiernik (book, version in Donat, p 171) doesn’t give date but mentions the expert whose favorite expression was “tadellos”
Though the winter weather was bitter cold, the pyres gave off heat like an oven. This heat came from the burning bodies of Jews.
This doesn't sound like late spring, nor like November . . . possibly December through February? Wiernik gave more detail in his Eichmann trial testimony:
Until the end of 1942, they did not burn those who had been gassed, but they would bury them in enormous pits. The bodies were placed inside. Only at the beginning of 1943 did they make various experiments of how to burn them, and they did not succeed. Then a certain Scharfuehrer arrived, an SS man, and he brought this model for the grids, and he always used to stand near the fire and shout:"Tadellos, tadellos!" (perfect, perfect!).
This timing is close to what Rajchman and the HC White Paper say.

In addition, the HC White paper, p 446, quotes Stangl:
They are described as follows in the judgment at the Düsseldorf trial of Treblinka’s commandant Franz Stangl:
Around the turn of the year 1942/1943, following instructions from higher up, the bodies started being burned. At first a burning grid was made out of the trolley rails still available. However, these could not bear the weight of the mountains of corpses. Thereupon a bigger grid was erected by the gas chamber building, which was made of railway rails placed on concrete foundations. At first there were difficulties also with this burning installation. As a specialist for such burnings an Unterführer by the name of Floss came to Treblinka, who after some experiments brought the grid into the right position. In a pit underneath the grid a wood fire was maintained. The corpses were now placed upon the grid in layers and burned.
The timing of the full-scale operation seems to be thus in early part of 1943, Floss perfecting the system as Rajchman said after initial trials.

Arad, pp 173-174 in BST says:
The last camp where cremation of the corpses was instituted was Treblinka. During Himmler’s visit to the camp at the end of February/beginning of March 1943, he was surprised to find that in Treblinka the corpses of over 700,000 Jews who had been killed there had not yet been cremated.

Page 174
very fact that the cremation began immediately after his visit makes it more than possible that Himmler, who was very sensitive about the erasure of the crimes committed by Nazi Germany, personally ordered the cremating of the corpses there. A cremation site was erected for this purpose in the extermination area of the camp.
Some of the Jewish prisoners who were employed in the cremation operations in the camp escaped during the uprising in Treblinka and survived the war. Therefore, there is more information and evidence on the cremation process and installations in Treblinka than in the other death camps. The cremating structure consisted of a roaster made from five or six railroad rails laid on top of three rows of concrete pillars each 70 cm high. The facility was 30 meters wide. The bodies were removed from the pits by an excavator. Stangl, the camp commander, relates:
It must have been at the beginning of 1943. That’s when excavators were brought in. Using these excavators, the corpses were removed from the huge ditches which had been used until then [for burial]. The old corpses were burned on the roasters, along with the new bodies [of new arrivals to the camp]. During the transition to the new system, Wirth came to Treblinka. As I recall, Wirth spoke of a Standartenführer who had experience in burning corpses. Wirth told me that according to the Standartenführer’s experience, corpses could be burned on a roaster, and it would work marvelously. I know that in the beginning [in Treblinka] they used rails from the trolley to build the cremation grill. But it turned out that these were too weak and bent in the heat. They were replaced with real railroad rails.10
The Standartenführer mentioned by Wirth in his conversation with Stangl was Paul Blobel, commander of Commando 1005. To introduce the cremation of corpses in Treblinka, experts were sent there from the other Operation Reinhard camps. SS Oberscharführer Heinrich Matthes, the commander of the “extermination area” in Treblinka, testified:
At that time SS Oberscharführer or Hauptscharführer [Herbert] Floss, who, as I assume, was previously in another extermination camp, arrived. He was in charge of the arrangements for cremating the corpses. The cremation took place in such a way that railway lines and concrete blocks were placed together. The corpses were piled on these rails. Brushwood was put under the rails. The wood was doused with petrol. In that way not only the newly accumulated corpses were cremated, but also those taken out from the graves.
A special working group composed of Jewish prisoners in the extermination area was organized for the cremation operation. Additional prisoners were transferred for this operation to the extermination area from the Lower Camp, where the work had decreased significantly due to a reduction in the pace and number of transports.
Uses Jeff's 700,000 figure for the number of corpses to be disposed of.

Wikipedia’s article on Treblinka cites this paper for the Germans’ digging up the mass graves and burning the corpses AFTER Katyn’s affair (early spring 1943). And after Himmler’s visit as well.

Holocaust Research Project is in line with the above and HC:
The main task now facing the SS was the elimination of the evidence of the crime. Following a visit of Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler in early March 1943, the order was issued to cremate the bodies. The mass graves were opened and the corpses were exhumed and burned on huge cremation grids, constructed from railway tracks, under the guidance of SS-Scharführer Floss.
 Unsurprisingly deathcamps.org follows this chronology.

Putting this all together, it appears that Floss and perhaps others visited Treblnka around the turn of the year, that preliminary attempts to burn the buried corpses starting near end of 1942 were not satisfactory, and that by February-March (still winter) Floss engineered and instituted the new, more robust system, based on lessons from other camps (similar operations had commenced at Bełzec and Sobibór in fall 1942), which subsequently went into high gear by March.

Here's my quick arithmetic as to # of bodies all this results in:

- as of 31 August 1942: 310,000 (of these some 1000s burnt)

- as of 31 December 1943: 721,555 (Höfle + Theresienstadt)
- as of let's call it 28 February 1943: another 40,000?
- total before "Floss action": 761,555 (less some 1000s burnt as above)

Vs Mattogno, the net effect is to reduce the number of bodies in his calculation by over 100,000 and to increase the time by at least 1 month

As noted, IIRC Muehlenkamp always uses a high number; from all this, it appears that my under 700,000 was premature amidst fuzziness due to caffeine high . . . I am guessing 740,000-750,000 corpses buried as of start of Floss action . . . with caveat that the number of corpses burnt cannot be tightly estimated due to partial information about September 1942 camp reorganization . . .
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:23 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Hunt was bitching about the Staffordshire LIDAR not revealing any disturbances or something to that degree. I have no idea what he was insinuating there......... anyone who was here have any Ida what he was talking about? It was tough to understand him after a while.....
Eric Hunt is a member here, under the name Gaschamberhoax. He has not posted since a humorous incident. Eric is a bit "egotistically fragile" and his personality requires him to try to impress whoever he is with, with evidence that Eric is "intelligent". When Eric posted here he was claiming the Treblinka gas chambers were "showers". When is was shown to him no such water existed for mass showers, Eric quickly changed his mind and said they were air-raid shelters. When it was pointed out that the "air-raid shelters" had a wooden roof, Eric said they were "shower-air-raid shelters". At this point either Freddy Berg or Bradley Smith pulled Eric off this forum, as Eric contradicted his own videos.

In other words, It is impossible to make sense about Eric's claims if you go into any detail. Eric's claims are for the "already converted" so as keep donations flowing into Bradley and Freddy's bank accounts. The videos are not intended to be taken seriously by normal people.

Have you watched Eric's video on Treblinka? The errors and outright lies are hilarious.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:01 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:Hunt was bitching about the Staffordshire LIDAR not revealing any disturbances or something to that degree. I have no idea what he was insinuating there......... anyone who was here have any Ida what he was talking about? It was tough to understand him after a while.....
Eric Hunt is a member here, under the name Gaschamberhoax. . . .
In June '14 Eric Hunt posted in the Arad's Goof thread in this subforum his appraisal of Caroline Sturdy Coll's research at Treblinka that
the LIDAR proves there are no massive burial pits or ground disturbances there WHICH contained or contain 900,000 Jews.
Also, in the CODOH Replies thread Nessie quoted Har - Hannover from CODOH in August as echoing this revisionist article of faith:
Nessie wrote:. . .
Hannover wrote:- Sturdy-Colls makes a complete fool of herself as the very radar imaging (LIDAR) shes uses proves that the alleged enormous pits holding ca. 900,000 Jews do not exist.
. . .
This sentiment makes both Eric Hunt and Hannover appear quite daft because on the Staffordshire University Holocaust archaeology project website, Sturdy Colls has had a webpage on her work since at least early in 2014, at "Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)" where she discusses LIDAR data from the TII site (these preliminary results are still up): Sturdy Colls' states an initial LiDAR finding that
The camp appears to have been considerably larger than previously thought.
Additionally, based on preliminary results, Sturdy Colls wrote the opposite of what Hunt and Hannover claimed about pits/mass graves:
Non-invasive geophysical survey has allowed the location of a number of mass graves and cremation pits to be determined in the extermination camp.
GPR located the original gas chamber structure. Sturdy Colls also preliminarily reported that
Geophysical survey and targeted test pits at Treblinka II have demonstrated the complexity of the buried environment and the considerable disturbance that was present across the entire site.

Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations. These remains were scattered remains, not buried in mass graves. . . .
Finally, Sturdy Colls made clear that
The work at Treblinka is ongoing. The evidence from the 2013 is still being examined. The LiDAR data is now being analysed in detail, the artefacts are being examined by specialists and the various data types are being assimilated . . .
Somehow Eric Hunt (and Hannover) have decided that the above results "prove" what they want them to prove rather than what the archaeological team has stated. It is odd proof that comes before the data are analyzed and findings described. But that's the topsy-turvy world of Holocaust denial.

I am curious what archaeological expertise, training, credentials, and publications Eric Hunt and Hannover bring to their strange pronouncements on work they haven't participated in and on data they've not reviewed.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:37 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:In other words, It is impossible to make sense about Eric's claims if you go into any detail. Eric's claims are for the "already converted" so as keep donations flowing into Bradley and Freddy's bank accounts. The videos are not intended to be taken seriously by normal people.

Have you watched Eric's video on Treblinka? The errors and outright lies are hilarious.
Eric Hunt and FP Berg are truly hatstand. Even more than with Mary and David, part of their comedy schtick is pretending they're serious investigators and honest brokers. It is inspired madness.

For anyone who is interested, here in "Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof" is where Eric Hunt (gaschamberhoax) joined a thread David had dedicated to discussing Hunt's humor masterpiece on Treblinka. The thread goes on for about 6 million posts. It seems. Hunt kept working himself into a huff and stomping off as his steam shower, transport claims and basic arithmetic, reading comprehension (he tripped up badly on the testimonies he tried using), logic, and basic camps knowledge imploded on him. Finally, as Matthew Ellard says, his handlers pulled him out for good.

And here's where Nessie created a thread on Hunt's follow-up video, the Majdanek laugh riot - similar result, but shorter and containing an actual discussion - and we never got to chat with the auteur as Freddy Berg is still keeping him away from here. Comedy gold: BRoI and others at RODOH, afraid to join the discussion, posting gibberish now and then about the SSF discussion but in the safe confines of RODOH - to cheer Hunt up presumably.

SSF's not been kind to Eric Hunt.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:40 am

I think that this quote form C S-C is very important

"Geophysical survey and targeted test pits at Treblinka II have demonstrated the complexity of the buried environment and the considerable disturbance that was present across the entire site.

Cremated and non-cremated human remains were located on the surface of the extermination camp area and also during the excavations. These remains were scattered remains, not buried in mass graves. . . ."

If there was a detailed large scale survey of the site we would find that there are remains in various states, mainly ash and crushed bones spread about the site. Some times the mix of ash, bone, sand and soil would be pretty even. Other times there would primarily be ash and bone. To call such graves is a misdescription. It is just an area where the mixing up that the Nazis were doing to obscure the site was not as thorough as in other places.

The use of drag lines to remove bodies from the original actual graves would leave some disturbances, but not many straight lines to show exact positions and size.

Denier/revisionists demands to see mass graves and size of graves is a red herring argument. They are trying to deflect away from how the Nazis disposed of the remains whereby the witness accounts match exactly what is found at the various death camp sites. We know denier/revisionists hate matching witness and physical evidence.

So can the remains of 900,000 or so people who have mainly been cremated and the bones rendered be kept at a site that is about 22,500m2 or 5 and 1/2 acres? (I estimated the death camp part of the camp to that size, it may be wrong). The answer is an easy yes.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:50 pm

Nessie, weren't cremains dumped back into the pits and covered with sand and soil?

Unless they were emptied later, it would seem "the mixing up that the Nazis were doing" would have to have been several meters deep over most of the Upper Camp area?


But I think the OP is about the time prior to major cremations?


Edit: Oh, wait... there's post #8 :pardon:
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:09 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Nessie, weren't cremains dumped back into the pits and covered with sand and soil?

Unless they were emptied later, it would seem "the mixing up that the Nazis were doing" would have to have been several meters deep over most of the Upper Camp area?
I don't think any of this relates to the question in the OP about mass grave capacity, as I understood Jeff's question. Jeff's question was about the size that the mass graves needed to be to accommodate the burials of victims between July 1942 and February 1943 - the three-quarters or so million bodies that were buried in mass graves before they were dug up and the bodies burnt, starting around February-March 1943.

So the surface remains don't speak to the OP which asks about the size of the graves needed for the buried victims; the surface remains came later - namely, from disturbances (in a number of ways and at different times) of the mass graves beginning with the exhumation/cremation process, after which burials were no longer the process for corpse disposal.

What the remains scattered around the site tell us is how weird are the statements made by Hunt and Hannover about what Sturdy Colls's team found - these remains were not found via the LiDAR mapping work (the LiDAR data will be used to learn more about the mass graves surface area, I presume) . . . the surface artifacts (and remains, etc) thus explain further why Hunt and Hannover are so far off base in what they believe the archaeological research shows.

Note: To reiterate, Sturdy Colls reported that LiDAR helped redraw the map of the site, and also said this in connection with mass graves:
Since that time, Colls has also led a lidar survey of the wooded site. Lidar is a method that uses lasers to measure the distance between the ground and the airplane-borne instrument. By scanning the ground with lidar, archaeologists can detect depressions and mounds that might indicate manmade structures. Lidar allows researchers to virtually strip away the vegetation that might obscure these features on the ground.

"What that revealed was the presence of previously unknown mass graves," Colls said.
Hunt/Hannover say LiDAR findings have proven there are no mass graves at TII - Sturdy Colls, doing the research, is quoted saying that the LiDAR scans revealed . . . previously unknown mass graves, albeit at TI. Why am I not surprised?

All this kind of gets at Jeff's second question, about Hunt's view of the LiDAR results.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:27 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:But I think the OP is about the time prior to major cremations?
Me too - how many corpses would there have been and thus how big the mass graves needed to be.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:11 pm

It should also be pointed out that Hunt doesn't appear to know what LiDAR is and has it confused with GPR. LiDAR is a mapping technology - according to Wikipedia:
a remote sensing technology that measures distance by illuminating a target with a laser and analyzing the reflected light. . . . Lidar is popularly used as a technology to make high-resolution maps. . . . Lidar has many applications in the field of archaeology including aiding in the planning of field campaigns, mapping features beneath forest canopy, and providing an overview of broad, continuous features that may be indistinguishable on the ground."
Hunt seems to have combined LiDAR and GPR into some single technology about which he challenges Sturdy Colls on his website, after already having stated in SSF that LiDAR disproves mass graves existed at TII, like so:
4) Does your LIDAR ground penetrating radar prove there were massive pits which at one time held the remains of 900,000 Jews? If so what is the total size and capacity (body count) of each grave? . . .
(bold added)

As far as I know, Sturdy Colls has written about using these two technologies but not an unreported, supposedly combined "LIDAR ground penetrating radar." GPR, which uses radar to image what is underneath the surface of the Earth, is a different technology to LiDAR, which uses surface data to image surface features and for mapping.

Also, Sturdy Colls has answered Hunt's awkward, ill-informed question on her website and in the press.

Nessie - please give your sources and reasoning for agreeing with Hunt on 900,000 victims.

Jeff - on LiDAR, as on so much else, Hunt is talking out his ass.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:31 pm

There's an image that they keep referring too. I doubt that they can analyze it or understand it though.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:12 am

The thing is this: Prof. Kola found enough grave space to hold 435,000 corpses at Belzec. I hope that Dr. Sturdy-Colls returns to TII in the future to do the same for the 700,000.

That goof on LIDAR vs. GPR is a howler. Just so I'm right: LIDAR does not penetrate into the ground right?

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:19 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar wrote: Lidar (also written LIDAR, LiDAR or LADAR) is a remote sensing technology that measures distance by illuminating a target with a laser and analyzing the reflected light...

Lidar is popularly used as a technology to make high-resolution maps, with applications in geomatics, archaeology, geography, geology, geomorphology, seismology, forestry, remote sensing, atmospheric physics,[4] airborne laser swath mapping (ALSM), laser altimetry, and contour mapping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-penetrating_radar wrote: Ground-penetrating radar (GPR) is a geophysical method that uses radar pulses to image the subsurface. This nondestructive method uses electromagnetic radiation in the microwave band (UHF/VHF frequencies) of the radio spectrum, and detects the reflected signals from subsurface structures. GPR can have applications in a variety of media, including rock, soil, ice, fresh water, pavements and structures. In the right conditions, practitioners can use GPR to detect subsurface objects, changes in material properties, and voids and cracks.[1]
.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:48 am

So I'm gonna assume that hunt and Hargis's statements stem from their utter inability to comprehend the technology involved.

He also was insinuating that the ashes were planted......... kind of a "the devil put dinosaurs here" type argument. Pure BS or has it been used before?

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:50 am

Jeff_36 wrote: I hope that Dr. Sturdy-Colls returns to TII in the future to do the same for the 700,000.
I don't think we need Dr Colls to do the simple maths for us. We already know the size of the mass graves and the size of a human body. I did the rough calculation, on this forum a year ago, and there is no issue.

Are some deniers still claiming there is?

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:45 am

This is why I do not think discussion of bodies and mass graves is a denier/revisionists red herring. Yankel Wiernik describes how the remains were disposed of at the end.

http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm#chapter11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"July was drawing to a close and the weather was blistering hot. The hardest work was at the mass graves, and the men who exhumed the corpses for cremation were barely able to stand on their feet because of the sickening odors. By now about 75 per cent of the corpses had been cremated; all that remained to be done was to grade down the soil so that not a trace would be found of the crimes, which had been committed on that spot. Ashes don't talk.

It was our job to fill in the empty ditches with the ashes of the cremated victims, mixed with soil in order to obliterate all traces of the mass graves
. The parcel of ground thus gained had to be utilized one way or another. It was fenced in with barbed wire, taking in an additional plot from the other camp to form an area for planting. An experiment was conducted with planting some vegetation in this area; the soil proved to be fertile. The gardeners among us planted lupine, which grew very well. And so the area of the mass graves, after 75 per cent of the corpses buried there had been exhumed and cremated, was leveled, seeded and fenced in with barbed wire. Pine trees were also planted there."

He is saying that the ditches were not just filled in with ash, but ash mixed in with soil. He also differentiates between ditch and grave. The suggestion is that what is there is a huge mix of various states of remains mixed in different concentrations with the sand and soil.

The point being if the entire site was dug up (as Werd on RODOH wants before he believes 900,000 are buried there) no mass graves would be found.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:49 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: ......
Nessie - please give your sources and reasoning for agreeing with Hunt on 900,000 victims.

......
It is shorthand for the Wiki Treblinka timeline of transports to the camp of "863,635+"
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:52 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:.......
"What that revealed was the presence of previously unknown mass graves," Colls said.
.......[/quote]

I think that a more accurate descriptive would be previously unknown areas where the ground was disturbed as the mass graves were being destroyed and remains mixed back in with the sand and soil to hide them as best as possible.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:41 am

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: ......
Nessie - please give your sources and reasoning for agreeing with Hunt on 900,000 victims.

......
It is shorthand for the Wiki Treblinka timeline of transports to the camp of "863,635+"
Thanks. I don't believe that number stands up to scrutiny: we know from the Höfle telegram (with an adjustment for some missing transports) the 1942 number - and not enough Jews were brought in 1943 to get to nearly 900,000.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:44 am

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:.......
"What that revealed was the presence of previously unknown mass graves," Colls said.
.......
I think that a more accurate descriptive would be previously unknown areas where the ground was disturbed as the mass graves were being destroyed and remains mixed back in with the sand and soil to hide them as best as possible.
My understanding is that when Sturdy Colls says mass graves she isn't doing a history of the camp but referring to the period when bodies were being buried and saying that at that point what she found had been a burial pit.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:50 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: ......
Nessie - please give your sources and reasoning for agreeing with Hunt on 900,000 victims.

......
It is shorthand for the Wiki Treblinka timeline of transports to the camp of "863,635+"
Thanks. I don't believe that number stands up to scrutiny: we know from the Höfle telegram (with an adjustment for some missing transports) the 1942 number - and not enough Jews were brought in 1943 to get to nearly 900,000.
Nessie, I forgot to add two points (early here!). 1) I've commented a number of times to take that list with a bit of care, since I've found some errors on it. It's a good rough guide but not perfect. IIRC the table in Arad's book also has inaccuracies. 2) Look at Thursday, 31 December 1942 and compare what they have there, a note on the Höfle telegram, to their total for Monday, 30 November 1942. I don't think that Höfle omitted nearly that large a number. Without spending hours with a calculator, that is one major issue; the Wiki page doesn't resolve the discrepancy.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:07 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:The thing is this: Prof. Kola found enough grave space to hold 435,000 corpses at Belzec. I hope that Dr. Sturdy-Colls returns to TII in the future to do the same for the 700,000.
Check HC White Paper, p 421 on Bełzec. (I have to say that this isn't an area I've worked through for myself - and there has been ongoing discussion for years and years about it.) There Roberto Muehlenkamp summarized his view on Kola's work and Bełzec mass graves. He had, a few pages earlier, determined average size of victims (using anthropological information, along with reasonable assumptions on conditions of arriving victims as well as % of children among the victims). On p 421 he factored in 1) decomposition of bodies prior to burial and 2) burning of some % the bodies in the pits (citing Pfannenstiel and Cornides’ diary).
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:45 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:.......
"What that revealed was the presence of previously unknown mass graves," Colls said.
.......
I think that a more accurate descriptive would be previously unknown areas where the ground was disturbed as the mass graves were being destroyed and remains mixed back in with the sand and soil to hide them as best as possible.
My understanding is that when Sturdy Colls says mass graves she isn't doing a history of the camp but referring to the period when bodies were being buried and saying that at that point what she found had been a burial pit.
I think it is a case of grave gives the wrong impression of a set space which only contains bits of body. The mass graves near TI are probably that, but inside TII I suspect the underground disturbances will contain as much soil and sand as remains.

So when denier/revisionists demand mass graves, the answer is there are none, the remains are unevenly mixed in with the sand and soil at the site.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: ......
Nessie - please give your sources and reasoning for agreeing with Hunt on 900,000 victims.

......
It is shorthand for the Wiki Treblinka timeline of transports to the camp of "863,635+"
Thanks. I don't believe that number stands up to scrutiny: we know from the Höfle telegram (with an adjustment for some missing transports) the 1942 number - and not enough Jews were brought in 1943 to get to nearly 900,000.
Nessie, I forgot to add two points (early here!). 1) I've commented a number of times to take that list with a bit of care, since I've found some errors on it. It's a good rough guide but not perfect. IIRC the table in Arad's book also has inaccuracies. 2) Look at Thursday, 31 December 1942 and compare what they have there, a note on the Höfle telegram, to their total for Monday, 30 November 1942. I don't think that Höfle omitted nearly that large a number. Without spending hours with a calculator, that is one major issue; the Wiki page doesn't resolve the discrepancy.
So what is your total?
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:49 pm

Nessie wrote:This is why I do not think discussion of bodies and mass graves is a denier/revisionists red herring. Yankel Wiernik describes how the remains were disposed of at the end.

http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm#chapter11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"July was drawing to a close and the weather was blistering hot. The hardest work was at the mass graves, and the men who exhumed the corpses for cremation were barely able to stand on their feet because of the sickening odors. By now about 75 per cent of the corpses had been cremated; all that remained to be done was to grade down the soil so that not a trace would be found of the crimes, which had been committed on that spot. Ashes don't talk.

It was our job to fill in the empty ditches with the ashes of the cremated victims, mixed with soil in order to obliterate all traces of the mass graves
. The parcel of ground thus gained had to be utilized one way or another. It was fenced in with barbed wire, taking in an additional plot from the other camp to form an area for planting. An experiment was conducted with planting some vegetation in this area; the soil proved to be fertile. The gardeners among us planted lupine, which grew very well. And so the area of the mass graves, after 75 per cent of the corpses buried there had been exhumed and cremated, was leveled, seeded and fenced in with barbed wire. Pine trees were also planted there."

He is saying that the ditches were not just filled in with ash, but ash mixed in with soil. He also differentiates between ditch and grave. The suggestion is that what is there is a huge mix of various states of remains mixed in different concentrations with the sand and soil.

The point being if the entire site was dug up (as Werd on RODOH wants before he believes 900,000 are buried there) no mass graves would be found.
I don't think that capacity vs victims is a red herring either - but I will say that the issue has been discussed at great length.

I do think it is important to be clear about # of victims, assumptions about # of bodies buried and their condition (as outlined by Muehlenkamp and others), time we're discussing (important for # of bodies, for rate of cremation vs total # cremated), etc.

What's confusing me, Nessie, is that your earlier post and the quotation from Wiernik here speak to a period after the bulk of the burials; indeed, starting around February 1943, when the full-scale, wholesale implementation of Floss's procedures occurred, a number of changes to the site began to take place and "disturbed" what its condition was before the exhumations/cremations. Jeff's OP focused on the number of bodies that could be buried at TII before these changes began.

Relying on Muehlenkamp, again, here (pp 423-424) is what he wrote about Treblinka mass burials in the HC White Paper:
At Treblinka, the people killed during the year 1942 and buried in mass graves amounted to 713,555 mentioned in the Höfle Report plus some 8,000 deportees from Theresienstadt on October 5-25, 1942, which are probably not included in the Höfle figure because that figure only included deportees from the General Government. The Belzec mass graves identified by Kola had an area of 5,391.75 square meters and a volume of 21,310 cubic meters (see Table 7.1), with 5,101.75 square meters corresponding to the graves considered burial graves in the author’s model, whose volume was 20,670 cubic meters. If all 434,508 victims of Belzec extermination camp were buried in these graves, this would correspond to an average of 85 bodies for each square meter of grave area and 21 bodies for each cubic meter of grave space. Burying the total number of 721,555 Jews killed at Treblinka in 1942 would have required 721,555 ÷ 85 = 8,489 square meters and 721,555 ÷ 21 = 34,360 cubic meters, if the same density that was achieved at Belzec could also be achieved at Treblinka (the deportee population was also essentially from miserable ghettos in the General Government, and the victims that had been killed between July and October 1942 had been lying in the mass graves for at least four months when the overall exhumation and incineration of the corpses began after Himmler’s visit in late February/early March 1942). However, the fact that ashes, bone fragments and larger remains covered an area of at least 1.8 ha when Judge Łukaszkiewicz investigated the site in November 1945 suggests that the mass graves alone covered an area larger than 8,489 square meters, while on the other hand the depth to which human remains were found in the crater that Łukaszkiewicz ordered to be further excavated (7.5 meters) suggests that the burial pits at Treblinka were deeper than the deepest burial pits at Belzec. . . .

Mattogno & Graf claim that Treblinka’s "Camp II", the "alleged" extermination sector, had an area of only 14,000 m2 (little more than 10 % of the total camp area of 13.45 ha. = 134,500 m2 mentioned in Łukaszkiewicz' report of December 29, 1945) and was thus way too small to harbor the mass graves area of 19,800 m2 that they claim would have been required to bury the corpses, pursuant to their contention that 8 bodies per cubic meter was the maximum possible density . . .

According to Romanov’s measurements shown in Image 7.17, the "Death Camp" sector on Bay’s Figure 14 has an area of (40,500 + 1,380 =) 41,880 m2 (Laponder: 41,390 m2), whereas the area of the "Receiving Camp" is 14,190 m2 (Laponder: 19,930 m2) and the area of the "Living Camp" is 38,290 m2 (Laponder: 45,850 m2). The sum of these three areas inside Treblinka’s inner perimeter is 94,360 m2 (Laponder: 107,170 m2). We see that two researchers (Alex Bay and Peter Laponder) reached very similar results independently of each other, especially as concerns the size of the "Death Camp" sector.

Bay projected 9 areas representing mass graves with an area of 50 x 25 meters into the "Death Camp" sector just to show that that the same could comfortably fit into the "Death Camp." These mass graves could take in at least 900,000 corpses, according to Bay’s calculations and estimate. The surface area of these projected graves is 9 x 1,250 = 11,250 m2, and their volume was calculated by Bay as being 9 x 8,502 = 76,518 cubic meters. The grave space accordingly required to bury the ca. 721,555 Jews murdered at Treblinka in 1942, with the density of ca. 12 corpses per cubic meter assumed by Bay, was somewhat smaller: 721,555 ÷ 12 = 60,130 cubic meters, corresponding to a surface area of 60,130 ÷ 76,518 x 11,250 = 8,841 m2 (roughly 21-22 % of the "Death Camp" sector’s entire area).
Note that

(1) In the discussion I've quoted, Muehlenkamp focused on the burials, not the post-burial changes, and capacity for corpses.
(2) Muehlenkamp relied on assumptions from Bełzec discussion, referenced in my earlier post.
(3) Muehlenkamp found enough capacity, using those Bełzec assumptions, for more than 721,555 victims (the 1942 total) and for my adjusted total factoring in early 1943 victims (740,000 or so).
(4) The link I gave earlier to JREF is where Muehlenkamp reviewed the corpse-size assumptions.
(5) The HC White Paper discusses the subsequent phase, the exhumation and cremation of the buried corpses, starting on p 440 - for Treblinka see p 445, previously referenced (the HC White Paper reaches the similar conclusions to those in my posts above - (a) referring to the cremations in August-September 1942 as limited and leaving significant numbers of buried corpses, (b) describing the cremations of late fall-early winter 1942 as "early and not very successful attempts at wholesale cremation," and then (c) focusing on the wholesale exhumation/cremation commencing end of February - early March 1943.

As to what Wiernik described, indeed, I think all that is very important for understanding the site and for the work that Sturdy Colls is doing - but it doesn't speak to the burials done by early 1943 - before (c) above. You are correct, though, that revisionists distort the exhumation/cremation process in order to speak in black and white terms. Btw, Strawczynski also described (Matthew Ellard has quoted this a number of times) the exhumations as being incomplete.

I don't understand this point:
Nessie wrote:So when denier/revisionists demand mass graves, the answer is there are none, the remains are unevenly mixed in with the sand and soil at the site.
What archaeology can do is show where there were mass graves, despite subsequent layers of disturbance to the site.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:59 pm

Nessie wrote:So what is your total?
Total number transported to TII and nearly all killed = 790,863 including Roma and 788,863 not including Roma (I may be a couple 1000 low on Roma victims), as discussed previously here, with reasons stated, and then detailed in this thread here and at length here.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:14 pm

From various "ask" sources on the internet, I asked what is the volume of the average person and the answer is about 65 litres. That is more than the average for Polish Jews who were not so big as we are now, but lets run with it. Lets say 800,000 bodies was the maximum before cremations started. So, 65x800,000=52 million litres. An Olympic swimming pool has a volume of 2.5 million litres. So TII would have to have contained 21.8 Olympic sized swimming pools. The pools are 50x25x2 metres (L,W,D).

Wiki on Treblinka states

"For the first eight months of the camp's operation, the excavator was used to dig huge burial ditches on both sides of the gas chambers; these ditches were approximately 50 metres (160 ft) long, 25 metres (82 ft) wide, and 10 metres (33 ft) deep"

so each one would fit 5 swimming pools. So taking into account the over estimations, four such pits would be enough.

There is easily enough space inside TII to accommodate the numbers of bodies being buried before cremations began.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:15 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:. . . He also was insinuating that the ashes were planted......... kind of a "the devil put dinosaurs here" type argument. Pure BS or has it been used before?
Nessie's post quoting from Wiernik answers this charge directly. I'd look in Strawczynski, Rajchman, and so on to see if others are as explicit as Wiernik.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:17 pm

Nessie wrote:From various "ask" sources on the internet, I asked what is the volume of the average person and the answer is about 65 litres. That is more than the average for Polish Jews who were not so big as we are now, but lets run with it. Lets say 800,000 bodies was the maximum before cremations started. So, 65x800,000=52 million litres. An Olympic swimming pool has a volume of 2.5 million litres. So TII would have to have contained 21.8 Olympic sized swimming pools. The pools are 50x25x2 metres (L,W,D).

Wiki on Treblinka states

"For the first eight months of the camp's operation, the excavator was used to dig huge burial ditches on both sides of the gas chambers; these ditches were approximately 50 metres (160 ft) long, 25 metres (82 ft) wide, and 10 metres (33 ft) deep"

so each one would fit 5 swimming pools. So taking into account the over estimations, four such pits would be enough.

There is easily enough space inside TII to accommodate the numbers of bodies being buried before cremations began.

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Muehlenkamp agrees that the maths work and he spells all this out in great detail, with data on the population in question and impact of ghetto conditions, etc, in the JREF discussion and the HC White Paper - and critiques the errors made by Il Re di Convoluzione, SnakeTongue, and others.

Modest proposal: someone post objections to Muehlenkamp's or other previous "solutions" to this, if the BLOB or any others contain objections, and we discuss those rather than re-working the problem for the umpteenth time!
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:16 pm

I have not bothered with a how many bodies calculation before, so I fancied having a go to satisfy myself using easier to understand measurements and analogy.
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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:29 pm

An issue that has been raised before the use of drag lines. If you want to exhume the mass graves you would use the drag lines to pick out the bodies and as the holes get deeper, a slope to the bottom of the grave would help. Staffs Uni have detected such a slope

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16657363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"....several larger pits were recorded in areas suggested by witnesses as the locations of mass graves and cremation sites.
One is 26m long, 17m wide and at least four metres deep, with a ramp at the west end and a vertical edge to the east."

That size is in effect an Olympic sized pool that is half as long, narrower, but twice as deep. It would be what was left after the grave was dug out. Then to refill it would mean mixing remains and mainly sand from the quarry. That explains the piles of sand seen with the drag line photos.

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Re: Treblkinka Mass Graves

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:54 pm

Right re doing your own calculations, that's fine and not exactly where I was going - just that Muehkenkamp's are more rigorous so I am curious to know whether anyone has challenged them and if anyone here sees any points left on the table so to speak.

That said, you've got to agree that "Ask" and "Wiki" aren't the best sources.

Which leads to a question about what has been written by researchers about the set of questions Jeff raised and sources we are using. Jeff, you mentioned the Polish report and then some questions that have been raised and also Kola. As to the Polish report do you mean that of Lukaszkiewicz and the Siedlce court? What are the primary and secondary sources you're looking at to get this information and answer your questions? What have you read and consider most persuasive and useful on the AR camps?
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