refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:06 am

S&H Green Stamps! LOL
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Balmoral95 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:06 am
S&H Green Stamps! LOL
Better value than Gerdes offering :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:54 pm

The Shared History - Divided Memory collection of papers is remarkably uneven. There are some true duds (Wierzbicki on on Polish-Jewish relations in western Belorussia, Jilge on Ukraine) but also some stellar contributions (the aforementioned paper by Michlic, Wnuk on the Polish underground and Jews, Hryciuk on Soviet repression in their occupied zone). This brings me to the paper by Alexander Brakel on the charge of "Jewish collaboration" with the Soviets. In his offering, focused on Baranowicze region, Brakel evaluates both the use of sources by those making the charge as well as the sources available to yield data on the actual situation.

Brakel takes up, in turn, the following charges against the Jews - core issues all: the welcome given the Red Army after 17 September 1939, views of the Soviet occupation, Jews in the occupier's administration, Jews in electoral campaigns, the Komsomol, Soviet repression and the question of religion, and the ethnic makeup of the vostochniki (the occupier's administrators and officials sent to run the occupied areas). The data are very clear and well presented, so when I have some time I will summarize Brakel's conclusions.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:56 am

With these Green shield stamps you would certainly be spoiling us Balmoral.
"We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter (Witte) and I have moved on to other research projects. "

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:12 pm

So I’m going to examine the paper I mentioned above by Alexander Brakel (“Was there a ‘Jewish Collaboration” under Soviet Occupation? A Case Study from the Baranowicze Region”) along with a paper by Christoph Mick on the Lvov area (“’Only the Jews do not waver . . .’ – L’viv under Soviet Occupation”). Sadly this will be a wall of text. I will keep my own comments to a minimum and try sticking to what Brakel and Mick argue. To help with the length I’ll break the comment into a number of posts each looking at a specific charge or charges made against the Jews and in favor of the concept of żydokomuna. The final post will deal with the available sources and how nationalist-heroic historians use them.

A note on the case studies: The Baranowicze region was atypical in that the residents there did not experience German atrocities first-hand against the Jews and others immediately after the invasion. In fact, according to Brakel, Jews there viewed the invader through the glasses of WWI; few Jews in the region were aware of German anti-Jewish policies. OTOH the ethnic makeup of Baranowicze make for a useful case: 40% Polish, 52% Belarussian, 8% Jewish, with Jews and Poles living mostly in towns and cities and Poles making up the elite. Mick doesn’t provide data on the ethnic makeup of the Lvov area at the time; he does note that the Wehrmacht had shelled Lvov and even fought into the city’s suburbs by the time of the Soviet advance (and occupation).

This first post will be blessedly short and simple: just the outlining of the charges and thus a listing of the topics of subsequent posts.

Brakel enumerates some charges and I’ve added a bit to his list:

1. “Jews enthusiastically welcomed the Red Army detachments during their march into towns and villages of the kresy.”

2. “Jews, willingly and on a large scale, collaborated with the occupying regime, much more intensely than the rest of the population.”

3. Jews were generally united in support for the Soviet occupation against the Polish state.

4. “The occupiers treated the Jews better than the other ethnic groups and gave them a significant number of privileges.” That is, the Soviets pursued an ethnic policy and that policy favored the Jews.

5. The officials sent to govern the kresy from the Soviet Union were mostly Jews.

6. Jews constituted, in the words of a contemporary Ukrainian organization, “the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism” in the region, that is, the Jews were generally the bearer of Soviet Communism and the reason for its success in the kresy. Or: Soviet power = Jewish power. (quotation from OUN-B)

The final part will be a discussion of some issues with the sources followed by a conclusion.

(all citations from Barkan, Cole & Struve, Shared History - Divided Memory. Jews and Others in Soviet-Occupied Poland, 1939-1941
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:12 pm

Part 1. Welcoming the Red Army

The charge: “Jews enthusiastically welcomed the Red Army detachments during their march into towns and villages of the kresy.”

In the Baranowicze region, the Red Army was welcomed in some towns and villages – with triumphal arches, flowers and kisses, etc. In Polish sources, the Jews and Belarussians are singled out for this welcome. Also, some Jewish memoirs recount the welcome celebrations and say that some Jews participated. (Brakel, pp 227-228)

As for the Lvov area, according to Mick, Ukrainians observed that, in the words of a Ukrainian poet, “the Jews were pleased” with the arrival of the Red Army. (Mick, p 260) Here, Home Army reports depicted the local Jews as happy about the Soviet occupation. (Mick, p 256) Polish sources maintained that “Jews received the Soviets with open satisfaction” and attacked Polish soldiers, joined red militias, and lorded it over the Poles. (The examples Mick could find – the Polish sources don’t state specifics – included incidents in which Jews fought back against Polish anti-Semitic baiting or regulations; it should be borne in mind that the Soviets had a policy of “anti-anti-Semitism,” and outlawed anti-Semitism. See also Brakel, pp 240-241.) Jewish sources OTOH noted only that some Jews welcomed the Soviets. (Mick, p 251)

As we will see in future posts, the context for these observations about Jews welcoming the Red Army needs to be understood – especially in terms of the Polish state’s treatment of Jews during the interwar years; diversity of interests, views, and politics within the Jewish community; and the initial responses of other ethnic groups in the region.

Part 2. Disloyal Jews

The charge: “Jews, willingly and on a large scale, collaborated with the occupying regime, much more intensely than the rest of the population.”

As to the friendly reception accorded the Soviets in the Baranowicz region, Brakel says that
the ranks of those who welcomed the Red Army included not only Jews, but also Poles and Belarussians. The latter is confirmed by Polish memoirs.

Brakel concludes that the some of the region’s Belarussians, along with some Jews, greeted the Red Army in a friendly way. (Brakel, pp 228-229)

In Ukraine, also, Jews were not alone in welcoming the Red Army. Based on Ukrainian sources, Mick says that initially after the Soviet occupation Ukrainian political leaders “called upon Ukrainian youth to join the Soviet militia” in order to appease the invader; in any event, the Soviets soon began arresting leading Ukrianian figures. (Mick, p 259) According to Polish observers, along with the Jews, some Ukrainians received the Soviets positively. (Mick, p 256) Working class elements among both Poles and Ukrainians welcomed the Red Army, a posture that would quickly change. Mick also explains that the initial Soviet onslaught led to collapse of authority in the Lvov region. Here local militias became very active. The Soviets encouraged Ukrainian peasants to join and to smash the Polish governing structures, as he says, “from below.” In the chaos, units of the Polish army attacked, and killed, Ukrainian peasants who’d been part of committees welcoming the Red Army and avenging violence against Poles. In Mick’s view, some of the sympathy for the occupation stemmed from fear of anarchy and a hope for the restoration of some order in the region. (Mick pp 247-248) Mick also notes that Polish observers remembered Ukrainian collaboration, including attacks on Poles, with the early stages of the Soviet occupation. (Mick, p 258)

The overall impression Brakel and Mick convey is that some groups from each of the major ethnic communities welcomed the Red Army. Having less reason to be positive about the Soviet occupation (one goal of which was to smash the traditional elites), there were relatively few Poles doing so; on the other hand, as non-elite groups, Jews and Belarussians had more reason to be optimistic about their future prospects and thus relatively more Jews and Belarussians greeted the occupation optimistically.

Part 3. Jewish unity

The charge: Jews were generally united in support for the Soviet occupation against the Polish state.

Both Brakel and Mick describe as background the Polish government’s minority policy and the escalation of anti-Jewish laws and actions especially following Piłsudski’s death in 1935. They note restrictions on Jews – such as educational opportunity including numerus clausus quotas, the barring of Jews from the civil service, anti-Semitic rules for the police and army, etc – as well as incidents of anti-Jewish violence. (Mick, p 252) The minorities’ policies did not affect only Jews in Poland but did affect them especially hard and forms part of the context in which events occurred after the German and Soviet invasions.

As noted above, both Polish and Jewish sources in the Baranowicze region agree that Jews welcomed the Red Army in mid-September. However,
According to these accounts, most of those persons were actually members of the communist party and other sympathziers with left-wing ideas.”
(Brakel, p 228)

Brakel concludes that the Jewish population was divided in immediate responses to the Soviet occupation, with left-wing Jews (and Belarussians) viewing the Soviet occupation favorably at first:
only a minority of all Jews of the Baranowicz region took part in the public welcoming of the occupiers. Most of the Jews stayed calm, kept a low profile, and did not take part in the ceremonies.
(Brakel, pp 228-229)

As we will see, Brakel finds that Jews did not dominate the Soviet apparatus in the Baranowicz region. Also, Brakel says that
The predominant group [taking posts with the Soviets] was to a much larger extent Belarussians, whose percentage in the Soviet administration often exceeded their share of the population significantly.
(Brakel, pp 230-231) According to Brakel, “many Jews spoke out in distrust of the new regime, especially because of the poor economic conditions,” despite other Jews who benefited with state posts or felt positive about Soviet promises of equality. (Brakel, p 233)

As we will see, Jews in the Bund and Zionists were targeted for special repressive measures by the Soviets.

Mick notes that Jewish sources, unlike Ukrainian and Polish sources, make differentiations within how different groups of Jews in the Lvov area responded to the Soviet invasion. Mick observes that in Ukraine Jews who were more assimilated to Polish culture were critical of other Jews in the region, whilst orthodox and Zionist Jews were less critical. Some Jews worried that Jewish participation in government would fuel anti-Semitism. (Mick, p 253) The Jewish accounts maintain, however, that “enthusiasm” was not “unanimous,” and that “members of rightwing parties as well as the socialists were opposed to the new system.” (Mick, p 251) Some Jews, even in the context of the civic equality promised by the Soviets, were explicitly critical of those Jews who “behaved badly.” (Mick, p 252) Even some Polish observers recorded that middle-class Jews did not welcome the coming of Soviet rule. (Mick, p 256) In other cases, Polish sources identified the more pro-Soviet orientation of Jewish youth – and generalized that attitude to all Jews. (Mick, p 257) Mick says specifically that Jewish accounts portray a divided response to the Red Army on the part of the Jews in the Lvov area and says that the desire of many Polish Jews to retain their Polish citizenship shows that “the attractiveness of the Soviet Union for the Jewish population was very limited.” (Mick, p 252)

Mick argues that generally Poles, even as they noted Jewish behavior that ran counter to stereotype, did not alter their stereotypes. So, for example, even though Jews were deported in large numbers by the Soviets, this repression did not figure in how Polish sources evaluated Jewish situation and actions during the Soviet occupation. Similarly with Soviet repression against Zionists who kept up their propaganda activities and turned them against the Soviet occupation. (Mick, p 258) Similarly with some Ukrainian observers: one noted that “Jews in general are as dissatisfied as we are” and that only about 500-1000 Jews in the entire region were pleased with Soviet rule. (Mick, p 261)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Part 4. Jews alone benefited and ruled

The charge: “The occupiers treated the Jews better than the other ethnic groups and gave them a significant number of privileges.” That is, the Soviets pursued an ethnic policy and that policy favored the Jews, including Jews dominating the Soviet administration in the occupied area.

General

The Soviets pursued mainly a class and social policy aimed at instituting Soviet power in the occupied area, favoring the working class and poor and targeting for severe repression the traditional elites, mainly Poles. The ethnic conflicts and tensions of the region, however, caused local groups to reinterpret Soviet policies as primarily ethnically based and to make invidious comparisons among groups. This meant that nuance and complexity gave way, among contemporary observers, to persistent stereotypes. Soviet policy toward the different groups was not consistent throughout the occupation, was opportunistic, and at different times subjected all groups to repressive measures, in accord with communist goals.

From the point of view of the occupied population, acceptance of roles in the Soviet administration do not necessarily coincide with a person’s sharing communist ideology or supporting communism or the USSR, but, as in other cases, come from different motives, probably most importantly a survival strategy or necessity but also sometimes opportunism, etc.

For example, writes Brakel, on how Jews often took up roles in the medical sector in Baranowicze, the role of providing medical care and services was “indispensable for supplying the basic needs of the civilian population,” in any event. (Brakel, p 231)

Elections

Jews in the Baranowicze region were charged with dominating candidate slates and the Soviet election commissions.

There are Soviet data on candidate slates; the data “do not show a disproportionate percentage of Jews” offered as candidates. Not even close. For example, in Baranowizce uezd, only 2 of 40 candidates were Jews; in Stołpce and Niewśież, likewise, just two Jews were candidates – as against 17 Polish and 20 Belarussian candidates. Overall, Jewish candidates were just under 6% of those running, less than the Jewish % of the population. In the case of the city of Baranowicze city, where Jews made up 50% of the population, less than 1/3 of the candidates in the 1940 elections were Jews. Brakel concludes that here, in the case of the elections held under the Soviets, “the claims of the Polish memoirs did not correspond to reality.”(Brakel, pp 233-234)

Not much data exists for the composition of the Soviet election commissions: Brakel found only data for Niewśież, where 18 of 161 members were Jews, exceeding the Jewish % of the population but far from “dominating” the commission. (pp 234-235)

Service in the Soviet administrative apparatus

Brakel says that sources on the makeup of the Soviet administration in the Baranowicze area, beyond the relacje, are sparse. He finds it likely that, in keeping with their overall goals and in keeping with their national policy (which included equality for the Jews) the Soviet “cleansed the administration of its former incumbents [and] replaced them with Jews.” (Brakel, p 229) OTOH few Jews or Belarussians served as officials in the former Polish state and thus these groups were not cleansed, as the Poles were, OTOH under the Soviets, Poles and Belarussians were at a disadvantage: the Soviets had no easy, reliable way to discern the political outlook and loyalty of Polish officials; Belarussians, not as well educated as Poles or Jews, suffered when it came of official appointments.

Indeed, in some relacje specific names of Jews appointed by the Soviets to high positions are given.

OTOH, there were very few high official posts, and, rather quickly (starting in January 1940), the Soviets – who distrusted all locals as products of a bourgeois system – replaced locals with vostochniki (see a future post) sent from the USSR for important positions in the administration. Over eight thousand vostochniki took up posts in the Baranowicz oblast’.

Brakel finds a “mixed picture” for lower and supporting positions in the government. It
was not exclusively, and not even predominately Jews who offered their services to the occupiers. Usually their share corresponded with their proportion in the population, or was even below that.
As we saw earlier, it was Belarussians who generally were overrepresented in the Soviet apparatus. Jews dominated, however, in the medical and trade departments, in keeping with the socio-economic and professional structure of the region’s Jewish population. (Brakel, pp 230-231)

In Ukraine, Poles were removed from official posts and from key sectors of the economy – and replaced with Ukrainians and Jews. Mick notes that having Jews in highly visible positions, after a period in which the discriminatory policies of the Polish republic prevailed, was a new – and unwelcome – development for members of the other ethnic groups. As Ukrainian nationalism grew, and especially the strength of OUN-B increased, the Soviets began to tilt back somewhat toward the Poles. (Mick, pp 248-249, 260)

Polish sources often accused the Jews of striving for positions within the Soviet government. (Mick, p 256) The Polish memoirs in highlighting the visible Jews in various roles (equal opportunity for Jews being both novel and often perceived as to the detriment of Poles) did not delve into negative aspects of the occupation for the region’s Jews, such as economic changes or the force of Soviet repression (below) applied to the Jews. Brakel explains that whilst many Jews served in the trade department, many of them were former business owners who had been expropriated.

According to Mick, Jewish sources say that many of the posts in the administration available to locals went to Jews, with those taking the jobs often hoping to protect themselves from deportation or other forms of repression. Also, it was said that Ukrainains and even many Poles were able to retain their offices and other positions, with Ukrainians dominating city government and educational institutions. (Mick, p 253)

Soviet repression

The Soviets aimed their most severe repressive measures against the Poles; Mick explains that the Soviet strategy was to break up the power of the Polish state and elites, the elites being mostly Poles, and to utilize, in accordance with a class policy, the lower classes, youth, and alienated intellectuals. As such, Poles were deemed now a “national minority” and, at that, an “enemy” of the Soviet order and the working class.

In Ukraine, schools were Ukrainized, the Ukrainian language was prioritized, Poles were ousted from government positions and economic roles, as we’ve seen.

But this policy was not without contradictions and difficulties. As noted above, Jews, many of whom were crafts workers and tradesmen, lost their independence as their shops were absorbed into collectives or coops or simply expropriated. Perceived by the Soviets as pro-capitalist, based on the community economic structure, 1000s of Jews were forcibly moved east from border areas. The Soviets took action against religious expression and worship, and Soviet anti-religious measures affected Jews as well as Christians (religious instruction was banned, religious schools were closed, Hebrew proscribed, religious institutions taxed heavily, synagogues converted for secular uses, Jewish community government disbanded: Sabbath worship had to become private and underground, work was mandated on the Sabbath). (Brakel, pp 237-240)

In the Lvov area, with the upsurge of Ukrainian nationalism, the Soviets increasingly targeted Ukrainians; thus, Ukrainians became a higher % of deportees (as we will see) and on the eve of Barbarossa were subject to large-scale arrest actions (many of those arrested would be murdered where the Soviets held them as the German invasion began). (Mick, p 250)

A special case was that of the red militia, whose members were on the front lines of repression, executing searches, “stop and frisk,” and arrests. Poles identified the red militia as a reason for hating the Jews and perceived the militias as made up mainly of Jewish members with a smattering of disloyal Poles and Ukrainians. However, “the important positions were held by officials from the Soviet Union,” according to Mick (p 257).

The Soviets also targeted some groups as “hostile” to Soviet power; these included members of the Bund and Zionists. Some leaders of these groups were arrested as “counter-revolutionaries.” (Brakel, pp 232, 240) Nevertheless, viewing Soviet repression through an ethnic-nationalist filter, Polish sources depicted Soviet repression as almost exclusively aimed at Poles and then at liquidation of the Polish institutions. (Mick, p 258)

Deportations

Brakel points out that were among those people whom the Soviets deported from occupied Poland to the Soviet interior (Kazakhstan, Siberia, northern Russia) (these were mostly refugees from western Poland). (Brakel, p 237) A paper by Grzegorz Hryicuk gives more detail than does Brakel: of a total of at least 315,000 deportees, there were 181,000 Poles (58%); 69,000 Jews (22%), 33,000 Ukrianians (10%), and 24,000 Belarussians (8%). Poles were overrepresented. The criteria used by the Soviets for deportations were as follows:

First deportation – February 1940: so-called Polish settlers (those who’d received land from the Polish government during the interwar years) and so-called foresters (people working in private and state forests); Poles predominated in this deportation

Second deportation – April 1940: families of NKVD prisoners, prostitutes; again Poles predominated but there were higher %s of Ukrainians and Belarussians than in the first deportation, 4% of those exiled were Jews

Third deportation – June 1940: so-called bezhensty or refugees from western Poland; Jews predominated (85%); many of the deported Jews were those who, hoping to return to Poland and not wishing to surrender their citizenship, had refused Soviet passports/citizenship (Mick, pp 251, 252)

Fourth deportation – May-June 1941: OUN activists and social base, cleansing of border areas, counter-revolutionaries; Poles predominated with significant %s of Belarussians and Jews

(Hryicuk, pp 184-195)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:23 pm

Part 5. The influx of Jewish bureaucrats

The charge: The officials sent to govern the kresy from the Soviet Union were mostly Jews.

The cluster of ideas that go with żydokomuna – that Polish Jews were generally communist in orientation, that Polish Jews were naturally disloyal to Poland, and that in fact Jews made up the core of Bolshevism – clashed with a different anti-Semitic perception current in this period, namely, that to secure their rule in occupied Poland the Soviets had to rush in (mainly Jewish) communist officials from the USSR.

In Baranowicze, of the 8606 vostochniki sent from the USSR to administer the occupied region, the ethnic breakdown of Belarussians, Russians, and Jews was as follows: Belarussians 4000; Russians 3000; Jews 875. A count by historian Krzysztof Jasiewicz shows that in the supposedly Jewish dominated NKVD in the larger northeast occupied region just 3 Jews were among those in the top 100 posts. (Brakel, p 242) Also, Mick cites a Jewish observer in Lvov who said that Ukrainians, Poles, and Jews in the region all detested the NKVD along with the political commissars and party top brass; also, despite fracturing ethnic relations, Mick cites a Jewish testimony saying that all locals could unite against the vostochniki. (Mick, pp 253, 254)

The governance situation, according to Mick, in the Lvov area was somewhat similar to the situation in Baranowicze: “The top positions in the administration and economy went mainly to officials from the East, predominantly Russians, but also Jews, Urkainians and other nationalisties who had been ordered to L’viv from the Soviet Union.” (Mick, p 253)

Part 6. The vanguard of Communism and Soviet power

In the words of a contemporary Ukrainian organization Jews constituted “the vanguard of Muscovite imperialism” in the region, that is, the Jews were generally the bearer of Soviet Communism and the reason for its success in the kresy. Or: Soviet power = Jewish power. (quotation from OUN-B).

As we’ve seen, Jews from the USSR were not particularly numerous among the Soviet cadres brought in to rule the occupied areas. Most commentators, across perspectives, agreed that within the region young Jews and poorer Jews were the most visible in favoring the Soviet occupation. (See, for example, Mick, p 253, where some Jews expressed concern that Jewish youth were overly eager to participate in “Soviet events.”)

With this in mind, Brakel examines the Komsomol, the Soviet organization for communist youth. Education was seen as the path to newly opened opportunities in government employment, public administration, and other areas. Thus, in Baranowicze, on the founding of the Komsomol in the area, 11 of 28 members (over 1/3) were Jews. However, as time went on, this share dropped to 18%, still over the share of Jews in the population. This meant that 773 Jews were in the Komsomol – less than 0.8% of the Jewish population and less than 6% of the Jews in the relevant age bracket. Brakel feels that because the agit-prop role of the Komsomol was front and center, a popular perception, noted in the Polish relacje, about Jews and Communism was reinforced, despite the actual data and participation picture. (Brakel, pp 235-236)

In the Lvov area the Ukrainian press and OUN-B charged the Jews with “Judeo-Bolshevism,” presenting the Jews as acting as “the prop of the Muscovite-Bolshevik regime,” forming its leading cadres in the region, and serving as Soviet agents. (Mick, pp 260-261)

Some Ukrainian groups used the confusion of the German invasion to stage attacks on Jews, whom they blamed for Soviet rule, as well as on Soviet officials, even as many Jews tried, in contrast to what happened in the Baranowicz region, to flee the Germans. At least one Jewish source expressed a fear of imminent pogroms, as would happen. (Mick, p 255)

7. Sources

Brakel explains that the principal sources for Polish and Jewish responses in this area and period are the relacje; these were “short memoirs, written by Polish deportees” (Poles whom the Soviets deported during 1940). The Soviet government granted an amnesty after Barbarossa which enabled over 100,000 such deportees to leave the USSR for Iran. In Iran, the Polish Government in Exile had them write these accounts of their experiences in the war.

Brakel observes that verifying these accounts is often difficult due to the paucity of source materials. Both Brakel and Mick used other contemporary sources best they could to shed light on the relacje – Brakel using Jewish accounts and Soviet documentation along with the relacje, Mick using both Jewish (from the Ringelblum archive) and Ukrainian accounts (a small number of diaries only available) along with documents from the Lvov command of the Polish Home Army.

Also, the Polish accounts, which nationalist-heroic historians generally accept at face value, are, like the Jewish and other testimonies, inherently biased; in the case of the relacje, the authors had been identified as “hostile elements,” had suffered from Soviet repression, and had been forced out of Poland.

Conclusions

This research is important because there are nationalist-heroic authors writing today who echo and make use of the motifs of Judeo-Bolshevism. The persistence of ethnic stereotypes found by both authors discussed is noteworthy. The conclusions reached by Brakel and Mick, both about how nationalist-heroic historians have used sources and the persistence of anti-Jewish stereotypes in the region, including that of żydokomuna, align well with Michlic’s arguments, summarized above.

Brakel concludes:
[T]he overall evidence is clear and unambiguous: neither the composition of the occupational machinery, including its local abettors and helpers, no the policy this machinery conducted in the field, justifies the impression of a close nexus of some sort between Jews and the occupying Soviet power. In spite of that, this was exactly the impression many inhabitants, especially Poles, harboured and nurtured.

In comparison with their own, sometimes precipitous economic and social decline, the position enjoyed by a portion of the Jewish population might have seemed tantamount to a privilege.
But the Polish observers ignored the context, survival strategies, coercion, and much else at play in the overall situation. More important,
The fact that large numbers of Jews also fell victim to the new rulers was ignored. Similarly, people ignored the much larger number of Belarussians in nearly all political and administrative positions. This indicates that the stereotype of alleged “Jewish collaboration” was not adopted and internalized mainly because it was anchored in genuine facts, but rather principally as a result of the cliché of the “Jewish bolshevism” (żydokomuna). Already in the interwar period, the cliché had been very widespread. . . . it was the stereotype of żydokomuna that determined the perception, and other the other way around. . . .
(Brakel, pp242-243)

Mick concludes, with remarks that are no doubt controversial for some:
The Soviet occupation was based, first of all, on sociopolitical and power-political categories, and only secondarily on ethno-political ones. However, the perceptions of the local population were structured by traditional ethnic patterns of perception. The Soviet measures were reinterpreted accordingly.
In accord with their occupation aims, the Soviets implemented repressive measures that
affected the Poles most of all. But the Poles and the Ukrainian nationalists interpreted the Soviet occupation policy as a frontal attack on their nation. For the Jewish population, the situation differed. German anti-Semitism had already shown its murderous face in the war against Poland. On the other side stood the bulwark of Soviet power promising the Jews recognition, equal civil rights and equal treatment. . . . The stabilization of Soviet power and collaboration with its organizations lay in the interests of the Jewish population. . . . [A] majority of the Jewish population thus opted, without enthusiasm, for the Soviet power. The fact that some Jews did not have much affection for the Polish state resulted from their experiences of pre-war anti-Semitic discrimination in the Second Polish Republic. But the alternative to the Soviet Union in September 1939 as not Poland but the Soviet Union.

What is particularly evident in Ukrainian and Polish documents is that when assessing Jewish behavior, the eyewitnesses do not consider the specific situation in which the Jewish population found itself. The cooperation of Jews with Soviet organizations was interpreted by Poles as a betrayal of the Polish state, by both Poles and Ukrainians as the final proof of the congruence of Jewry and Bolshevism. The Jewish population was made collectively liable . . . not only for the actions of Jews from L’viv in Soviet organizations, but also for the actions of Soviet officials of Jewish origin who had come to the city recently.

. . . Each ethnic group included in the process of interpretation only behavior by other ethnic groups that strengthened and confirmed ethnic stereotypes. Contradictory information was noted, but did not flow into the process of interpretation. It was therefore primarily the Jews whom the Poles and Ukrainians considered the favorites and accomplices of the Soviet regime. . . .
(Mick, pp 261-262)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:15 pm

Welcoming the Reds.

Marco Carynnyk's paper on the NKVD's massacre* of prisoners in the jail at Dubno as the Germans advanced in June 1941 describes Dubno also when the Soviet seized the area in September 1939.

The Red Army was greeted in Dubno with a banner hailing Stalin as well as by crowds waving "red or blue-and-yellow flags, church banners, offerings of bread and salt, and medleys of hymns and Communist standards." The better off Poles were displeased by what they took as a warm welcome for the Red Army offered by Jews and Ukrainians. Still, Zionists took the advent of Soviet power as a reason for redoubling their efforts to reach Palestine, and many Ukrainians considered fleeing west to where the Germans still exercised control.

Arrests of locals by the Red Army units began at once - and targeted Polish soldiers, priests, police officers, and officials. At the same time there are reports that Ukrainians killed local Poles under the cover of the Red occupation, "to extract revenge for the wrongs they had suffered at Polish hands." Many Ukrainians quickly dropped Polish and began conversing in Ukrainian, as a nationalist upsurge gripped many. Some local Poles complained that it was the Ukrainians who'd erected the triumphal arch and that Ukrainians staffed the militias that were attacking Polish units and harassing Polish locals. According to Carynnyk, many Poles perceived a Ukrainian hand behind their misfortunes under the Soviets and deemed the Ukrainians as long disloyal to the Polish state.

But also "The certainty that Jews were disloyal . . . was even stronger." A journalist recalled how Red Army officers singled out the Jews, promising power to them under Soviet rule and advantages like good jobs. There were reports of people with darker skin and Semitic features harassing Poles and humiliating them. And of a man named Lerner who proclaimed that "I was born the day the Red Army arrived."

Carynnyk asks, "Are these stories true?" and answers, "It hardly matters." Because Poles perceived Soviet power as backed by Ukrainians and even more so as an imposition on the part of the Jews. Carynnyk's conclusion mirrors that of Michlic, Brakel, and Mick:
The paradigm that defined stations and fortunes, of men and women in Volhynia and Galicia in 1939 and 1941 was plain. You were held to account not for what you had done but for who you were. That you were a Jew - or a Pole or a Ukrainian - was all that anyone needed to know about you.

The war is long past, but the paradigm holds. . . .
Carynnyk, "The Palace on the Ivka - Dubne, September 18th, 1939 and June 24th, 1941," in Barkan, Cole & Struve, pp 266-269, 301

- - - - - - -
* Carynnyk describes how victims and locals alike blamed the district NKGB chief, Iakov Davidovich Vinokur, a brutal NKVD and later NKGB interrogator from northern Russia, for carrying out the prison executions. In person. It was rumored that Vinokur was a Jew whose real name was Bronstein. Vinokur, Carynnyk shows, was an NKVD man and Communist of Jewish extraction. His name was not Bronstein but Vinokur. OTOH Vinokur was "upbraided" for his refusal to provide officers to assist in the murders; after his upbraiding he assigned 10 men to assist but then drove to Rivne possibly, says Carynnyk, to get the execution order retracted. The day after the massacres - as documented by the testimony of a "miracle survivor" of the prison shootings - Vinokur went to the prison and, instead of executing survivors, hesitated and left the scene. The Ukrainian survivor who provided postwar the testimony about Vinokur was nevertheless certain that Jews ran the NKVD, Jewish doctors had tried to poison her, and Jews were responsible for the Dubno prison massacre, of which Jews were among the victims. (Carynnyk, pp 285-289, 298-301)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by NathanC » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:01 pm

I'm rereading Stephen Kotkin's Stalin Biography, and he briefly touches on the Polish Soviet war in 1920

Much like what would happen in Finland later, the Soviets established a "Polish Revolutionary Committee", in order to make it look like they were helping Polish Communists overthrow Pilsudilski's government and establish a Communist state. This Committee was mostly made up of Poles, most significantly, the Cheka's founder Felix Dzierzynski.

Interestingly enough, their HQ was set up in Bialystok, which had a large Jewish Population. Much like what would happen later, the Soviets nationalized property and went after those they deemed "Bourgeois". Jews were included in this, and their shops and warehouses were looted. Needless to say, there was no Zydokommuna here.

Much later on, most Polish Jews would choose to stay behind and endure the Nazi invasion instead of fleeing to the USSR (Probably the ultimate refutation of the "Zydokommuna" myth). This is said to have been inspired primarily by the fact that in WW1, the Germans liberated the Jews from Czarist oppression, and that they hoped the Wehrmacht would behave similarly, but it wouldn't be surprising if their brief experience under Dzierzynski et al in the Soviet Polish war would also influence this decision.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:43 pm

>> Much later on, most Polish Jews would choose to stay behind and endure the Nazi invasion instead of fleeing to the USSR (Probably the ultimate refutation of the "Zydokommuna" myth).

NathanC - first, good to see you back and posting on this topic, and, second, a number of the papers I've read in the Barkan, Cole & Struve collection make two similar points, namely, 1) that many Jews in the kresy (especially in the north, present-day Belarus, where knowledge of Nazi anti-Jewish atrocities was not widespread) viewed the Germans in terms of their memory of WWI and 2) that the large number of Jews refusing Soviet passports and preferring to return to Poland is strong evidence for the lack of unity in the Jewish community and against the stereotype of Judeo-Bolshevism.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:57 pm

In Fascists, Mann discusses economic and class explanations for the rise of fascism (long story short: he can see some role for these explanations for the trend toward authoritarianism but so much for fascism). In his discussion Mann touches on some points that I find useful for thinking about the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism, mainly the "Bolshevik" side of the equation.

Mann is struck by the paradox of communist weakness during the interwar period, after 1917-1919, and authoritarian responses to the it, escalating during the 1920s and 1930s. He calls the response a "hysterical class overreaction." (p 62)

Mann cites some telling data points:
1) The strongest communist and socialist movements during these years were in democratic countries (Mann cites France and Norway, respectively).
2) The most violent period was 1917-1919, and, "except for the civil war in Russia, most of the dead were leftists" even then; Mann says that the only other successful - but short-lived - communist revolution came in Hungary where Kun's government killed 350-600 civilians (2/3 of these being peasants who resisted requisitions), whilst "In subsequent reprisals a rightist 'White Terror' then killed between 1,000 and 5,000 leftists and imprisoned a massive 60,000. . . . Rightist violence was not a mere response to leftist violence; it vastly exceeded it" outside Russia. (p 59)
3) Taking strikes as a possible indicator of class conflict, and reason for suppression of the left and workers' movements, Mann says that the strike rate in Europe, except Italy, saw its peak at the end of WWI "but then declined before the main authoritarian upsurge." Also, strikes were more prevalent in democratic countries than in those that became authoritarian or had large fascist movements. Ditto union membership. (p 60)
4) The communist and socialist vote, Mann says, "was in fairly general decline from the mid-1920s with two exceptions: the socialist vote in Austria and the combined left vote in Germany. In eastern Europe - for our purposes a center of Judeo-Bolshevik mythologizing - "unionization and leftist voting was far too low to explain much. . . . Workers were not threatening enough to provoke a rightist backlash in many places." (p 60)
5) Also, whilst fears of the left seizing power during 1917-1920 had foundation, "after 1920 the score reads differently: successful rightist coups in sixteen countries and not a single leftist one." Lest rightist coups be seen as the reason for the failure of the left, Mann discusses, as above, the weakness of the left and the ability of the democratic countries (where unions, strikes, and other manifestations of "workers'" and "left" power were far more extensive) to institutionalize protest and expression of grievances and to channel these activities into negotiation instead of radical attempts to bring down capitalism. The more instrumentally rational, economically sound class response to the left was that of the democratic countries, which were strengthened by their "acceptance" of unions, strikes, parties, etc. (pp 60-61)

In Mann's view, given the weakness and failures of the left in Europe during the interwar period, "Most rightist coups occurred in the 1930s, simply too late to be a realistic response to the threat from the extreme left, then fading rapidly across almost all of Europe." (p 61)

Mann offers some thought on the "hysterical overreaction" from property owners, conservatives, and the right:
1) "We should perhaps not underestimate the role that sheer vindictiveness can play in human conflict." Here, Mann hypothesizes that the authoritarians took the chance to kick their opponents when they were down. But he also notes that increased repression, doing away with parliaments, curtailing civil liberties and democratic freedoms, allying with the fascists, and so on were costly ways to get revenge, and that the democratic method proved "the best solution to class conflict. . . . Its unions, socialist parties, and strikes were larger than [in the authoritarian countries] but were implicated in class compromise" and helped create stability and order. (p 61)
2) The "hysterical overreaction" led many, among them the Nazis, to view "respectable Social Democrats" and moderates as dangerous revolutionaries and Bolsheviks. In other words, in many instances "anti-Bolshevism" wasn't against the communists and was a misguided overreaction (grounded in part in an incapacity to deal with conflict successfully).
3) In Mann's view it is a mistake to assume that business and property owners acted out of rational economic calculations (Marx, he says, was especially guilty of this mistaken assumption in Capital). Rather, economic calculations focused mostly on property rights (a zero-sum game), not profit maximization, and were infused with ideology. Despite evidence to the contrary, then, the owning classes in many cases saw possible encroachments on their property rights, union membership and activity, strike actions, and workers' parties as dire threats to their status, to their property, and to social order and security. Their fear led them to gravitate toward authoritarian solutions to class conflict. That is, to crush opponents rather than to manage social conflict within a liberal parliamentary framework. (pp 61-63)

In this overreaction of the propertied groups in many countries, a set of values was heightened: nationalism (of the integral or organic variety), intensified statism, class transcendence, militarism, repression. In addition, Mann finds that the heart of this authoritarian response - not necessarily fascist - lay in southern, central, and eastern Europe. Where the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism was also strongest. Using Mann's framework, then, one might hypothesize that the nationalist right and the various authoritarians, having adopted an ethno-nationalist stance, intertwined a myth of Jewish disloyalty and subversion with a non-existent communist threat during the 1930s. And suggest that on the eve of WWII the concept of Judeo-Bolshevism was doubly empty - but emotive and "waiting" for new events to energize it and give it new potency.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:14 am

So what exactly was the connection between Jacob Schiff et al. and the funding the Bolsheviks received during the early years of the Russian Revolution?
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Denying-History » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:07 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:14 am
So what exactly was the connection between Jacob Schiff et al. and the funding the Bolsheviks received during the early years of the Russian Revolution?
Trotsky in New York, 1917: A Radical on the Eve of Revolution

"Schiff spent millions to topple the tsar, but not to insert Bolsheviks. Whatever his grandson might have said in 1949, the story dissolves in daylight."
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:01 pm

How Jewish was the makeup of the NKVD?

Sorry if this has been addressed in the previous pages, please link me if that's the case, but I keep hearing upto 40% before the Stalinist Purges, but is this just tinfoil propaganda or was this some of the legit highest jewish over-representation in the Soviet Union? I've researched about other places like the Central Comittee, the Red Army, most of the period of existence of the Politburo etc. and in all those places Jews made up < 10%. So I consider the notion of Jewish Bolshevism pretty much debunked but the NKVD makeup is something I am still unclear about.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:44 pm

I recall mentioning partial/sample #'s

- here ["In Baranowicze, of the 8606 vostochniki sent from the USSR to administer the occupied region, the ethnic breakdown of Belarussians, Russians, and Jews was as follows: Belarussians 4000; Russians 3000; Jews 875. A count by historian Krzysztof Jasiewicz shows that in the supposedly Jewish dominated NKVD in the larger northeast occupied region just 3 Jews were among those in the top 100 posts. (Brakel, p 242) Also, Mick cites a Jewish observer in Lvov who said that Ukrainians, Poles, and Jews in the region all detested the NKVD along with the political commissars and party top brass; also, despite fracturing ethnic relations, Mick cites a Jewish testimony saying that all locals could unite against the vostochniki. (Mick, pp 253, 254)"]
- here ["by June 1941, there were no Jews on the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Lithuanian SSR and only 5 out of 49 People’s Commissars were Jews. In common with the pattern of diminishing Jewish participation, the police apparatus saw the numbers of Russians in the NKVD grow during the period - with 23 Jews on the central staff of 138 by May 1941, when there was only 1 Jew out of 44 city and county chiefs and deputies"].

Also, NathanC quoted from a comment posted by Sergey Romanov at HC on the issue (see this table - in Russian) which shows at the summary level the declining numbers from the '30s into the '40s.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:14 pm

Btw I just found out about the worst mass murderer in human history in terms of executing people himself: guy was in the NKVD, but he was an ethnic Russian and not a Jew. This monster's name was Vasily Mikhailovich Blokhin and scholarly sources claim he single-handedly shot 7000 out of the ca 21000 Katyn victims and tens of thousands more during his entire military career.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:59 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:15 am
. . . If you want to tear the beating heart out of revisionist copy-pasta, you will have to attack their central article, and it goes something like this: . . .

Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian (part Jew) . . .

President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian (part Jew) . . .

Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian . . .
Alfred Rosenberg, "The Russian-Jewish Revolution," February 1919, in Stackelberg & Winkle, The Nazi Germany Sourcebook: An Anthology of Texts, p 52:
Lenin is the only non-Jew among the peoples' commissars; he is, so to speak, the Russian storefront of a Jewish business.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:50 pm

Another funny thing is that Lev Kamanev, one of the members of the first Politburo that had 7 members, was actually not Jewish: he had a Jewish father, but a gentile mother. As per the laws of Jewish matrilineality, that makes him a goy.

This completely messes up the revisionist insistence that the first Politburo was majority Jewish (now it is 3 out of 7 - Zinoview, Trotzki, Sokolnikov) rather than 4 out of 7, with Kamenev joining the ranks of Lenin, Stalin and Bubnov).

Let's pat ourselves on the back for this one, lads. There is nothing sweeter in the world than destroying revisionist history.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:54 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:50 pm
Another funny thing is that Lev Kamanev, one of the members of the first Politburo that had 7 members, was actually not Jewish: he had a Jewish father, but a gentile mother. As per the laws of Jewish matrilineality, that makes him a goy.
As a reminder, as has been pointed out a few times the same is true of big bad Bela Kun, Jewish father, not mother (she was a Calvinist and Bela went to Calvinist schools).
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:32 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:14 pm
Btw I just found out about the worst mass murderer in human history in terms of executing people himself: guy was in the NKVD, but he was an ethnic Russian and not a Jew. This monster's name was Vasily Mikhailovich Blokhin and scholarly sources claim he single-handedly shot 7000 out of the ca 21000 Katyn victims and tens of thousands more during his entire military career.
From memory the claim Blokhin shot 7,000 people is based on (kinda hearsay) of a witness over hearing him brag of supposedly shooting that many people. I think its highly unlikely, considering thats about 250 people he singlehandedly shot a night. Which would pretty much be every caravan to the execution sites.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:39 pm

In recent YT comments I've repeatedly heard deniers refer to a book called "Jewish run Concentration camps" by a Dr. Hermann Greife. Turns out they got the title of that book wrong; it is "SLAVE LABOR IN SOVIET RUSSIA" by Dr. Hermann Greife

Here's a few scans: http://www.the-savoisien.com/blog/index ... iet-Russia
full text (65 page booklet): https://archive.org/stream/TheJewishRun ... n_djvu.txt

Looks like he was a nazi-era writer, the cover of the book claims he was a "high school instructor" does anyone know more about him? Even Metapedia only makes a short entry for him and that site currently seems to be down.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:04 pm

Ha, I just happened to come across Greife in Hanebrink's new book, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. From which also, luckily, the relevant passage is available on Google Books, like so (pp 125-127):

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

(p 309)
Image

(This passage is characteristic of the once-over-lightly narrative in Hanebrink's disappointing book, btw.)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:48 pm

Thanks, but do we actually know who Hermann Greife was? I have sometimes seen him with the "Dr." title but cant find anything about his person apart from him being the author of that book.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm

> Another funny thing is that Lev Kamanev, one of the members of the first Politburo that had 7 members, was actually not Jewish: he had a Jewish father, but a gentile mother. As per the laws of Jewish matrilineality, that makes him a goy.

*Kamenev

Religious rules are quite optional for those Jews who do not accept Judaism in the first place, and Kamenev self-identified as a Jew (as is clear from his Party documents), and I don't see a reason to dispute his self-identification since I don't see how opinions of rabbis from centuries ago bear on the ethnic identification of a 20th century atheist.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:34 pm

About 31,0000 Jews lived in Croatia when the NDH was formed in 1941, out of a population of 3.7 or so million. Kočović estimates that 26,000 Croatian Jews were murdered by the Ustasha - 19,000 in Croatia mostly during 1941-1942 and 7,000 in German camps mostly during 1943. Žerjavić reaches roughly the same results.

In late winter 1942, the Italians, looking through Fascist colored glasses, deemed that the resistance in former Yugoslavia was led by "a certain Tito, a Jew . . ." Tito's father was a Croat, his mother Slovenian, he was raised Catholic.

After WWII indeed a legend spread among emigrés and conservative Catholics that Tito spoke with a Polish or Russian accent and was actually a Polish Jew named Josif Walter Weiss, a Soviet agent given the identity of Josip Broz after the latter had been killed fighting in Spain. Be that as it may, after Tito's partisans established the National Committee for the Liberation of Yugoslavia in November 1943, the body decided on a federal structure for the country so that Yugoslavia would "truly be the homeland of all its peoples . . . and ensure full equality of rights to Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians and Montenegrins . . ." apparently forgetting in their deliberations the Jews on whose behalf and at whose instigation the partisans supposedly were fighting.

Adriano & Cingolani, Nationalism and Terror: Ante Pavelić and Ustasha Terrorism from Fascism to the Cold War, pp 233-234, 257, 280
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:02 am

Did Jews murder the Romanovs?

Posed that question in the history forum, no answers yet, feel free to reply here: https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 31cde2e662
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:50 am

Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm
> Another funny thing is that Lev Kamanev, one of the members of the first Politburo that had 7 members, was actually not Jewish: he had a Jewish father, but a gentile mother. As per the laws of Jewish matrilineality, that makes him a goy.

*Kamenev

Religious rules are quite optional for those Jews who do not accept Judaism in the first place, and Kamenev self-identified as a Jew (as is clear from his Party documents), and I don't see a reason to dispute his self-identification since I don't see how opinions of rabbis from centuries ago bear on the ethnic identification of a 20th century atheist.
For the record - Kamenev, Zinoviev, and Trotsky were excommunicated by a council of Orthodox Rabbis in Odessa in the spring of 1918 (when it was under Autstro-Hungarian occupation). From the perspective of Jewish religious authorities of their day they were not Jews.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:53 am

Aaron Richards wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:02 am
Did Jews murder the Romanovs?

Posed that question in the history forum, no answers yet, feel free to reply here: https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic. ... 31cde2e662
The Jewishness of Yakov Yurovsky has been debated back and forth for over a century lol.

What is clear is that he was an ethnic Jew who was raised as a Russian Orthodox Christian by parents who had converted. Does that make him a Jew? I would think not, but that's just my opinion.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:32 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:50 am
Sergey_Romanov wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:59 pm
> Another funny thing is that Lev Kamanev, one of the members of the first Politburo that had 7 members, was actually not Jewish: he had a Jewish father, but a gentile mother. As per the laws of Jewish matrilineality, that makes him a goy.

*Kamenev

Religious rules are quite optional for those Jews who do not accept Judaism in the first place, and Kamenev self-identified as a Jew (as is clear from his Party documents), and I don't see a reason to dispute his self-identification since I don't see how opinions of rabbis from centuries ago bear on the ethnic identification of a 20th century atheist.
For the record - Kamenev, Zinoviev, and Trotsky were excommunicated by a council of Orthodox Rabbis in Odessa in the spring of 1918 (when it was under Autstro-Hungarian occupation). From the perspective of Jewish religious authorities of their day they were not Jews.
Obviously they were not religious Jews. They were ethnic Jews.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:32 pm

Returning to the classic "jewish bolshevik" canard, here's a longer list that was posted in a youtube comment:
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Zinoviev,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahum_Eitingon,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Kamenev,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Aschberg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kogan,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Grossman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Feldman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaak_Zelensky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Krestinsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Axelrod,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Dan,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petrovsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel_Jakobson,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Rosenberg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalia_Zemlyachka,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/aleksandr_Mikhailovich_Orlov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Joffe,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisei_Uritsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Yurovsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Koltsov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Radek,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_Figner,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simion_Bughici,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Agranov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Unszlicht,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Sokolnikov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Pauker,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Voitinsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Babel,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Mekhlis,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Bukharin,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Minc,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Slutsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Leplevsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osip_Piatnitsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Lozovsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Różański,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandru_Nicolschi,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Steinberg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftaly_Frenkel,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Agranov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Martov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Deutsch,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Semyonov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Golos,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Zarubina,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Barr,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Kheifets,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Larin,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zborowski,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Blumkin,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelica_Balabanoff,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Krivitsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatol_Fejgin,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Borejsza,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Dimanstein,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Dickstein_(congressman),
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Rosengolts,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evsei_Liberman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matvei_Berman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Alexandrovich_Ginzburg,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignace_Reiss,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Taratuta,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Natanson,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Raikhman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Warski,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Blake,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafail_Farbman,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Каганович,_Михаил_Моисеевич,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/V._Volodarsky,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Abramov-Mirov,
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakov_Sverdlov
talk about dedication! From the looks of it, the list isn't limited to bolshevik Jews but the fellow scraped together every Jew big and small he could find in the world of communism, across many nations and many decades. Which in turn makes the list quite small.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:05 am

Krestinsky was not Jewish.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:49 pm

One valuable aspect of Semelin's narrative is the individual case studies he presents to illustrate his major arguments. These focus on families and individuals - often with important people (Marc Bloch, Léon Poliakov, Irène Némirovsky, Saul Friedländer, Serge Klarsfeld, Stanley Hoffman, Léon Werth, and many others).

So far I have "met" precisely one communist Jew prior to the war period. OTOH I have been reminded that many of the Jews emigrating to France around the time of the Russian Revolution were fleeing the Bolsheviks (Poliakov was an example, as were the Némirovskys). And that many others were not necessarily fleeing persecution (like the upper class Friedländers) or poverty but were drawn to France, and Paris, for its cultural life (Hoffmann's parents, the Klarsfelds) or business opportunities. That deniers manage to turn this diversity, which includes Jewish families getting out of Bolshevik Russia, into Judeo-Bolshevism impoverishes a rich and interesting history along with promoting long-standing tropes in anti-Semitic bigotry.
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:55 pm

Ironically, Bela Kun, born Kohn, had a Calvanist mother and a Jewish father. One of the great Jewish/Communist bugaboos technically wasn’t Jewish. He attended Hungarian Calvanist schools and did not follow Jewish traditions.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:54 pm

LOL I think that fact has been mentioned a few times in this thread!

OTOH Goldstein introduces a man named Vlado Singer, who renounced Judaism for, er, not Bolshevism but fascism, becoming a Croatian ultra-nationalist and then a senior Ustasha official serving the movement as an intelligence officer during the 1930s and then in official posts in the spring and summer of 1941. In summer 1941 Singer justified Ustasha "the unpleasant excesses against the Jews and Serbs" by arguing that the war created the opportunity for Croatia to deal with its historical enemies, especially the Serbs, who, he said, had plagued Croatia for three centuries. Alas, eventually, in fall 1941, Pavelic decided that the "Jew Singer" had to be dealt with, too, justifying his arrest on account of his having ties with Communists (one of Singer's intelligence assignments had been to cultivate contacts among known Communists). Singer was imprisoned at Jasenovac until, near the end of 1942, Luburic killed him, allegedly with a knife and on Pavelic's order. (Goldstein, pp 136-138, 573)
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:54 pm
LOL I think that fact has been mentioned a few times in this thread!
Damnit, I thought I came up with something fresh and new!!!!!!!
:D
OTOH Goldstein introduces a man named Vlado Singer, who renounced Judaism for, er, not Bolshevism but fascism, becoming a Croatian ultra-nationalist and then a senior Ustasha official serving the movement as an intelligence officer during the 1930s and then in official posts in the spring and summer of 1941. In summer 1941 Singer justified Ustasha "the unpleasant excesses against the Jews and Serbs" by arguing that the war created the opportunity for Croatia to deal with its historical enemies, especially the Serbs, who, he said, had plagued Croatia for three centuries. Alas, eventually, in fall 1941, Pavelic decided that the "Jew Singer" had to be dealt with, too, justifying his arrest on account of his having ties with Communists (one of Singer's intelligence assignments had been to cultivate contacts among known Communists). Singer was imprisoned at Jasenovac until, near the end of 1942, Luburic killed him, allegedly with a knife and on Pavelic's order. (Goldstein, pp 136-138, 573)
It’s been a bit since I looked over it but many of the Italian Fascists were Jews. Mussolini only expelled them in 1938 (I think, I might be off on the year).
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Sergey_Romanov » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:57 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:55 pm
Ironically, Bela Kun, born Kohn, had a Calvanist mother and a Jewish father. One of the great Jewish/Communist bugaboos technically wasn’t Jewish. He attended Hungarian Calvanist schools and did not follow Jewish traditions.
Not religiously Jewish, but neither was Einstein.

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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Aaron Richards » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:54 pm
As a reminder, as has been pointed out a few times the same is true of big bad Bela Kun, Jewish father, not mother (she was a Calvinist and Bela went to Calvinist schools).
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:55 pm
Ironically, Bela Kun, born Kohn, had a Calvanist mother and a Jewish father. One of the great Jewish/Communist bugaboos technically wasn’t Jewish. He attended Hungarian Calvanist schools and did not follow Jewish traditions.

Wikipedia (currently) says the mother of Bela Kun was Jewish as well: Róza Goldberger who converted to Protestantism.

Also: https://www.geni.com/people/Rosa-Kohn/6 ... 4116271928
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Re: refuting the notion of "Jewish Bolshevisim"

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:07 pm

Aaron Richards wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:53 pm
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:54 pm
As a reminder, as has been pointed out a few times the same is true of big bad Bela Kun, Jewish father, not mother (she was a Calvinist and Bela went to Calvinist schools).
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:55 pm
Ironically, Bela Kun, born Kohn, had a Calvanist mother and a Jewish father. One of the great Jewish/Communist bugaboos technically wasn’t Jewish. He attended Hungarian Calvanist schools and did not follow Jewish traditions.

Wikipedia (currently) says the mother of Bela Kun was Jewish as well: Róza Goldberger who converted to Protestantism.

Also: https://www.geni.com/people/Rosa-Kohn/6 ... 4116271928
Hanebrink, for example, says of Kun that he "was born Béla Kohn . . . to a Calvinist mother and a Jewish fathers village notary who was mainly absent from the boy's life. Like any Hungarian-speaking Transylvanian boy, Kohn . . . attended Hungarian Calvinist schools, which were steeped in a progressive nationalist tradition defined by a deep cultural memory of opposition to Catholic Hapsburg rule. At school, he had the tremendous good fortune to be mentored by the greatest Hungarian poet of the age, Endre Ady, and by the progressive milieu of his school, Kun gravitated - with fits and starts and distractions common to all teenagers - toward socialism." So in Hanebrink's telling we might well want to look into Calvino-Bolshevism. In any event, I know that I am terrified by Calvino-Bolshevism. (p 24)
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