Oh no! Not another "where did they go?" thread!

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Oh no! Not another "where did they go?" thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:42 am

Here's yet another snarled ball of string, a series of lies disproving themselves - Higher SS and Police Leader Friedrich Katzmann talking himself into this particular mess, with the help of Bormann and his circular 3244-PS as it turns out:

In his report of 30 June 1943 on the "Solution of the Jewish Question in Galicia" (018-L, IMT Blue series, v37, starting on p 391) - Katzmann explained what had happened to the Jewish population in his area of responsibility.

According to Katzmann, the fate of the 500,000 or so Galician Jews by mid-1943 was fairly straightforward:

- "When the Higher SS and Police Leader again intervened in the Jewish question in general on November 10, 1942, and a Police Order was issued for the formation of Jewish quarters, 254,989 Jews had already been evacuated or resettled." The evacuation/resettlement had begun in April 1942 but proceeded slowly and in stages so as not to disrupt the economy by removing artisans in particular too abruptly, but even so the Wehrmacht and employers tried to protect Jews from being evacuated; this had brought intervention from the HSSPF, including police control of labor assignment.

- Some Jews escaped evacuation/resettlement, so some of the "remaining Jews were declared labor prisoners of the Higher SS and Police Leader and held either in the factories themselves or in camps erected for this purpose. For Lvov itself a large camp [Janowa] was erected on the outskirts, which holds 8,000 Jewish labor prisoners at the present time. The agreement made with the Wehrmacht concerning employment and treatment of the labor prisoners was set down in writing."

- A "further evacuation was carried out vigorously, with the result that by June 23, 1943, all Jewish quarters could be dissolved. Apart from the Jews in camps under the control of the SS and Police Leader, the District of Galicia is thus free of Jews."

- "Altogether, 434,329 Jews had been evacuated up to June 27, 1943." (Only about 21,000 Jews remained in Galicia in labor camps, 21 in number; all the rest had been evacuated.)

Interesting. So, according to Katzmann's data, by the middle of 1943 roughly 5% of Galician Jews had been put to work in Katzmann's 21 forced-labor camps whilst 95% had been "evacuated" or "resettled."

But evacuated to be resettled where? 1000s of Jews, we know, from Katzmann, were provided "special treatment," those with forged or fraudulent labor certificates and those who escaped the resettlement operations. We also know that the property of the evacuated/resettled Jews was taken over by the HSSPF and forwarded to the Einsatz Reinhard staff - this property including such items as watches, coins and bank notes, rings and broaches, cigarette cases, flatware and even "gold teeth bridges." All this property and these valuables taken from the resettled Jews went to "Special Staff Reinhard."

But where did the Jews themselves go? Katzmann's report said only that "a start was made in April 1942 on the evacuation of Jews from the District of Galicia." So they were sent from Galicia . . . but to where?

Well, let's think for a moment about Bormann's talking points in 3422-PS. According to Bormann, what was happening in the East was this: in the first place, the Germans were conducting a "complete removal or withdrawal of the millions of Jews residing in the European economic space." Now, these removed or withdrawn Jews were going to Theresienstadt (older or privileged Jews) or were "deported to large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East, where they will either be used for work or else transported still farther to the East."

So one destination for Jews was the "large camps which have already been established or which are to be established in the East," where Jews would be put to work. In Galicia, that meant, according to Katzmann's figures, about 5% of the Jews.

That helps us not very much, because Katzmann already told us where these working Jews went by mid-1943. We're interested in where the other 95% of Jews went, taking Galicia as our example. According to Bormann, the problem of this vast majority of the Jewish population was being "solved only with ruthless severity in the interest of the final security of our people." Ok, so we get the idea that they will be subject to "harsh measures," which measures would cause chatter, and to "ruthless severity."

But where? Inferring from Bormann's circular, we can guess that where they'd be sent (resettled, evacuated, subjected to ruthless severity) involved their being "transported still farther to the East."

Now, further East of Lviv, say, or Tarnopol, in Galicia, of course, you run into the Reichskommissariat Ukraine, part of the German economic sphere (as a net surplus area, in fact, designated the Reich’s breadbasket) and a region also from which Jews were to be removed . . . further to the East, where lay Stalingrad . . . the Germans were not yet . . .

This turns out to be quite the conundrum . . . what do revisionists say about this hot mess, and with what evidence for their explanation?

Katzmann report: http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... %20607.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bormann circular: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 22-ps.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Oh no! Not another "where did they go?" thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:26 pm

And there's more . . . here we get to understand how the Nazis defined evacuation and to the East in practice. This one from exactly the same time as the Katzmann report, June 1943, the Himmler order, similarly causes some grief for deniers' claims that Jews were to be sent to the East for resettlement:

A. NO-2403: Himmler's order to dissolve Ostland ghettos by August 1943
Field Command, June 21, 1943

Reichsfuehrer SS


1. The Higher SS and Police Leader (Hoherer SS- und Polizeifuehrer) Ostland

2. Chief of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (Chef des SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungshauptamtes)

1) I order that all Jews still remaining in ghettos in the Ostland area be collected in concentration camps.

2) I prohibit the withdrawal of Jews from concentration camps for [outside] work from August 1, 1943.

3) A concentration camp is to be built near Riga to which will be transferred the entire manufacture of clothing and equipment now operated by the Wehrmacht outside. All private firms will be eliminated. The workshops are to be solely concentration camp workshops. The Chief of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office is requested to see to it that there will be no shortfall in the production required by the Wehrmacht as the result of this reorganization.

4) Inmates of the Jewish ghettos who are not required are to be evacuated to the East.

5) As many male Jews as possible are to be taken to the concentration camp in the oil-shale area for the mining of oil-shale.

6) The date set for the reorganization of the concentration camps is August 1, 1943.

signed H. Himmler

B. Planning Conference, July 1943

What plans did the Ostland authorities and SS put in place to implement Himmler's order?

The HC Critique, p 263, describes a July planning conference:
An Ostministerium conference report of July 13, 1943 stated that the Jewish population of White Ruthenia was 16,000, consisting of 8,500 for Minsk and 7,500 for Lida.145 The total for the whole of the Ostland was 72,000 (Wilno 20,000, Kovno 17,000, Siauliai 5,000, and Riga 15,000). Of this 72,000, the conference stated that 22,000 were to be ‘resettled’ and 50,000 placed in SS concentration camps, as per Himmler’s order of June 21, 1943.146 Kube requested an exemption for 4,000 Jews employed by the Wehrmacht in Minsk, but Himmler ordered that these Jews be sent “to Lublin or to another place.”147 . . .
- - - - -

145 Sitzungsvermerk v. 20 August 1943 des ORR Hermann über eine Tagung am 13.7.43 im RMbO zum Thema: Arbeitseinsatzfragen des Reiches unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der V erhältnisse in den besetzten Ostgebieten, NO-1831, NMT XIII, pp.1018-19; cf. Safrian, Eichmann’s Men, p.124; Yitzhak Arad, Ghetto In Flames, Ktav, 1982, p.402.
146 Der Reichsführer SS an HSSPF Ostland, SS-WVHA, 21.6.1943, NO-2403.

147 Memorandum by Gottlob Berger, 14.7.43, NO-3370; cf. Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, p.737ff.
The actual "allocation" of the region's Jews to "the East" (resettlement, extermination) versus SS labor camps didn't follow exactly what was agreed at the conference - but as will be seen below the general thrust of what happened was in line with the July discussion.

C. Map of European Theater, summer 1943, showing the many possibilities for resettlement in "the East"

This map gives an idea of what "the East" looked like and who held it in mid-1943.


D. Case Study: Dissolution of the Lithuanian Ghettos, late-summer/fall 1943

How did the Ostland ghetto closures, transfers to labor camps, and "evacuations" work out in practice? Let's look at Lithuania.

On the liquidation of the Vilnius ghetto, between early August and 23-24 September 1943, inmates were sent to the following places in accord with Himmler's order of June 1943: i) work camps in the Ostland - Vaivara labor camp in Estonia (2,000), Kaiserwald labor camp near Riga (1,700), Kailis and HKP slave labor camps in Vilnius (2,500) (a number of the Ostland inmates were subsequently sent to Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig) and ii) the "East" - Sobibór (4,500) and Ponary shooting range (several 100s).

On the liquidation of Kaunas ghetto, in fall 1943 the Kaunas ghetto was dissolved and turned into a concentration/labor camp - about 3,500 inmates dispersed into a number of labor subcamps in the vicinity under command of SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Wilhelm Göcke. 26 October 26 1943 about 2,700 Jews from the main camp were deported - those fit for work were sent to Vaivara labor camp in Estonia; the rest (mostly children and the elderly) were sent to "the East" - Auschwitz. (Not until July 1944, with the Red Army approaching the area, was concentration camp Kaunas fully liquidated - the Jews still there at the time shipped to Dachau and Danzig; during this roundup about 2,000 Jews were killed; 4,000 Jews were sent to Kaufering and Stutthof, where Kaunas Jews surviving at Vaivara were also sent at this time.)

The third ghetto remaining in Lithuania in 1943, Šiauliai, was also converted into a concentration camp - with 5 work camps - in fall 1943 under SS command, an SS-Oberscharführer, Hermann Schlöf, replacing the Gebietskommissar on 1 October; at the same time, the original site of the ghetto was razed. In November 1943 in the so-called children's action, the SS led a roundup of nearly 600 non-working children, old people, and disabled Jews for transport to Auschwitz. As with Kaunas, the camps at Šiauliai were shut down as the Red Army approached in July 1944, with 100s of Jews dying in the operation and the rest transported to Stutthof and Dachau.

E. Conclusion

In short, "the East" to where Himmler planned to send Ostland Jews who were not interned in the new SS-run work camps during fall 1943 was a chimera - in reality, the non-working Jews were sent to the forest of Ponary to be shot or to Auschwitz and Sobibór for extermination.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Oh no! Not another "where did they go?" thread!

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol: