Posen Speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:26 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . in proving that they are technically not German documents and that they are technically not forged documents,
Try following along - the discussion was about supposedly forged German documents. But Monstrous cited these cases that are not German documents at all, technically or otherwise, so his attempt to illustrate his point about forged German documents with these examples was idiotic.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:28 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Aha! Monstrous may have identified the source of "Statistical Mechanic"'s confusion. SM apparently thinks that Himmler, apparently being a simpleton, could only discuss one Jewish topic in a particular speech. Thus, Himmler could not possibly in the same speech have discussed both the general expulsion of Jews and also the specific killings of some Jews (such as partisans and their relatives or those associated with Warsaw uprising).

The supposed distinction between "self-defense units" and "partisans" is strange. Many partisans likely consider themselves to be acting in self-defense and from the viewpoint of a occupying force there is likely no distinction since both groups uses violence to resist the occupier.
Yes, SM's distinction reminds me of the difference between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter."
The tedious bore decides to miss the point again. The mess Monstrous has made of this stems from his failure to understand that
The Warsaw ghetto, whether Himmler claimed that it was a "bandit center" or not, was not a center for partisan operations in 1942 or, frankly, in 1943,
the major operation against the ghetto's Jews taking starting in July 1942, before poorly armed bandits, partisans, self-defense units, heroic fighters, what-have-you - numbering several 100 - had been formed and were in place in the ghetto.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:18 pm

FYI
Himmler made other statements on Slavs that were in line with the statements made in the first speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . in proving that they are technically not German documents and that they are technically not forged documents,
Try following along - the discussion was about supposedly forged German documents. But Monstrous cited these cases that are not German documents at all, technically or otherwise, so his attempt to illustrate his point about forged German documents with these examples was idiotic.
When important facts are disclosed I feel compelled to point them out for future reference. No doubt somebody someday will pass off some BS about Mauthausen, like there was a gas chamber there, and then point to the Ziereis confession to support that nonsense. Then I can point out that the Ziereis confession is completely worthless and that only a blithering idiot would rely on it evidence of anything--except to point out how Holocaust evidence is a joke.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:54 am

Whatever. You clearly didn't follow the discussion and your coverup stinks.
No doubt your Mauthausen nightmare has already come to pass . . .
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:09 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . in proving that they are technically not German documents and that they are technically not forged documents,
Try following along - the discussion was about supposedly forged German documents. But Monstrous cited these cases that are not German documents at all, technically or otherwise, so his attempt to illustrate his point about forged German documents with these examples was idiotic.
When important facts are disclosed I feel compelled to point them out for future reference. No doubt somebody someday will pass off some BS about Mauthausen, like there was a gas chamber there, and then point to the Ziereis confession to support that nonsense. Then I can point out that the Ziereis confession is completely worthless and that only a blithering idiot would rely on it evidence of anything--except to point out how Holocaust evidence is a joke.

The only joke here is on you: First you say the Ziereis statement is "worthless" and then go on to contradict that by saying it has merit in that it points out "how Holocaust evidence is a joke.". So which is it, worthless or not? And, as long as we're on this, since when has one document, one witness statement, in any historical event been used to prove that all the evidence for that event is a "joke".

Idiot.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:04 am

Xcalibur wrote:. . . And, as long as we're on this, since when has one document, one witness statement, in any historical event been used to prove that all the evidence for that event is a "joke".

Idiot.
Yeah, for sure, in Maryzilla's mind, historians need her advice on how to evaluate sources - you know, so they don't simply repeat whatever they come across without cross-checking, follow-up, etc. What a witless jackass.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:22 am

This stuck out to me in menstrous's most recent post.
"In particular, several Himmler speeches were "retyped" to fit with the EG documents. At this time there were still no agreed on consensus on how Jews were killed in the camps (with witnesses claiming methods such as hot steam, electrocution on conveyor belts, and skull-crushing machines) which is why there is no explicit mentioning of gassings the edited speeches. "
The reports of both the prisoners, the resistance groups, and the investigative commissions all were clear on gas by this point. The Polish Government in Exile is the only outlier here as they relied on one stupid {!#%@} doofus report.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:42 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:. . . And, as long as we're on this, since when has one document, one witness statement, in any historical event been used to prove that all the evidence for that event is a "joke".

Idiot.
Yeah, for sure, in Maryzilla's mind, historians need her advice on how to evaluate sources - you know, so they don't simply repeat whatever they come across without cross-checking, follow-up, etc. What a witless jackass.

Reading Mary's last reminded me that at Ravensbruek they had a section for "idioten": mentally ill, mentally challenged and demented women. I don't think Mary would have fared very well there. A 14f13-er for sure.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:45 am

Xcalibur wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . in proving that they are technically not German documents and that they are technically not forged documents,
Try following along - the discussion was about supposedly forged German documents. But Monstrous cited these cases that are not German documents at all, technically or otherwise, so his attempt to illustrate his point about forged German documents with these examples was idiotic.
When important facts are disclosed I feel compelled to point them out for future reference. No doubt somebody someday will pass off some BS about Mauthausen, like there was a gas chamber there, and then point to the Ziereis confession to support that nonsense. Then I can point out that the Ziereis confession is completely worthless and that only a blithering idiot would rely on it evidence of anything--except to point out how Holocaust evidence is a joke.

The only joke here is on you: First you say the Ziereis statement is "worthless" and then go on to contradict that by saying it has merit in that it points out "how Holocaust evidence is a joke.". So which is it, worthless or not?
I gave the rule. I gave the exception to the rule. There's no contradiction. Is "I" before "e" except after "c" a contradiction to you as well?
And, as long as we're on this, since when has one document, one witness statement, in any historical event been used to prove that all the evidence for that event is a "joke".
Never, as far as I know.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:18 am

Xcalibur wrote: Reading Mary's last reminded me that at Ravensbruek they had a section for "idioten": mentally ill, mentally challenged and demented women. I don't think Mary would have fared very well there. A 14f13-er for sure.
I agree. It makes me laugh that Mary & David support the regime, that would have been the first to put them to sleep, as congenital idiots.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:20 am

T4 would have got them long before 14f13 tbh...

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:17 am

Jeff_36 wrote:T4 would have got them long before 14f13 tbh...
Frankly, their parents probably left them outside, exposed to the elements, after first looking at them. Luckily for them, a touring clown circus took them in and reared them as pets. :D

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:03 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:T4 would have got them long before 14f13 tbh...
Frankly, their parents probably left them outside, exposed to the elements, after first looking at them. Luckily for them, a touring clown circus took them in and reared them as pets. :D
I'm trying to figure out which one is Mary, which one is David, and which one is Monstrous.........

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:49 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:This stuck out to me in menstrous's most recent post.
"In particular, several Himmler speeches were "retyped" to fit with the EG documents. At this time there were still no agreed on consensus on how Jews were killed in the camps (with witnesses claiming methods such as hot steam, electrocution on conveyor belts, and skull-crushing machines) which is why there is no explicit mentioning of gassings the edited speeches. "
The reports of both the prisoners, the resistance groups, and the investigative commissions all were clear on gas by this point. The Polish Government in Exile is the only outlier here as they relied on one stupid {!#%@} doofus report.
Then why were they still talking about steam and electric floors in 1946?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:26 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:This stuck out to me in menstrous's most recent post.
"In particular, several Himmler speeches were "retyped" to fit with the EG documents. At this time there were still no agreed on consensus on how Jews were killed in the camps (with witnesses claiming methods such as hot steam, electrocution on conveyor belts, and skull-crushing machines) which is why there is no explicit mentioning of gassings the edited speeches. "
The reports of both the prisoners, the resistance groups, and the investigative commissions all were clear on gas by this point. The Polish Government in Exile is the only outlier here as they relied on one stupid {!#%@} doofus report.
Then why were they still talking about steam and electric floors in 1946?
Read my post. The Polish Government in Exile relied on a stupid {!#%@} doofus report for their IMT submission. They were alone in doing that. All mentions of steam and electricity can be traced back to one OS report from 1942 that was predated by a Bund report from a few months earlier that mentioned gas.

This is not the first time I have told you this and I suspect it will not be the last.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women). Of course deportations started before the uprising; but Himmler argued that the intensity of the armed uprising proved that it was right to dismantle the ghettos as security risks that would only have increased as the Soviets advanced.

Also on the uprising:
http://codoh.com/library/document/2498/

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:14 am

Jeff_36 wrote:This stuck out to me in menstrous's most recent post.
"In particular, several Himmler speeches were "retyped" to fit with the EG documents. At this time there were still no agreed on consensus on how Jews were killed in the camps (with witnesses claiming methods such as hot steam, electrocution on conveyor belts, and skull-crushing machines) which is why there is no explicit mentioning of gassings the edited speeches. "
The reports of both the prisoners, the resistance groups, and the investigative commissions all were clear on gas by this point. The Polish Government in Exile is the only outlier here as they relied on one stupid {!#%@} doofus report.
Lots of other methods mentioned here:
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://balder.org/judea/The-Most-Fantas ... racles.php
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html#ftnref355

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:26 am

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women)...
Are you able and willing to render a more accurate translation of the parts in question then?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:10 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women)...
Are you able and willing to render a more accurate translation of the parts in question then?
"Terry concludes this section with a long quotation of a Himm-
ler speech “in front of generals at Sonthofen” of 21 June 1944, in which
he referred i.a. to the killing of Jewish women and children. He ignores
the title of the speech: “The ‘final solution’ and the uprising in the War-
saw Ghetto (1944) [recte: 1943].” 1189 The whole excerpt refers in fact to
the Warsaw ghetto revolt. I do not count this as an omission by Terry,
because he has probably never seen the text he quotes (“Bradley F.
Smith and Agnes F. Peterson (eds.), Heinrich Himmler. Geheimreden
1187 Ibid., p. 110.
1188 Bradley F. Smith, Agnes F. Peterson (eds.), Heinrich Himmler Geheimreden 1933 bis 1945
und andere Ansprachen. Propyläen Verlag, 1974, p. 200.
1189 Ibid., p. 203. The speech is found on pp. 203-205.
M ATTOGNO , K UES , G RAF · T HE “E XTERMINATION C AMPS ” OF “A KTION R EINHARDT ” 501
1933 bis 1945. Frankfurt am Main, 1974, p.203: footnote 328”), and
most likely took it instead from the web. 1190 This text contains unindi-
cated ommissions, and its translation swings between approximation
and falsification. I give here the most blatant examples. The following
passage: 1191
“The time when we cleaned out the last big ghetto in Warsaw – by all
means I can give the number – with more than 500,000 Jews in summer
1943 after five weeks of street fighting was also the last time. As isolated as
they may have been, the ghettos were the centers of all partisans – and of
all bandit movements.”
is rendered like this:
“We cleaned out the last one, the big ghetto in Warsaw, in summer
1943. In Warsaw there were 500,000 Jews. I tell you this number confiden-
tially. It took us five weeks of street fighting. Just the same, I want to an-
swer a little question that surely you must have.” (p. 211)
The dissolution of the ghettos as “centers” of the war against the par-
tisans stands in contrast to the thesis of racial extermination of the Jews
inhabiting them, and therefore the pertinent passage has been omitted
(although the omission corresponds to twenty lines of text).
Further in the text, the sentence
“Do we want to be so indecent as to say: no, no, we are too weak for
that, but our children can once deal with them.”
is incorrectly translated in this way:
“Do we want to be so improper that we say, no, no, we’re too weak to
kill children. Our children can deal with them.” (p. 211)
And finally “No, we can not take the responsibility for it” becomes
“No, we cannot shirk our responsibility to kill all the Jews.” (p. 211)."
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php ... page_id=28

"Finally, on June 21, 1944, again before a gathering of generals at Sonthofen, he stated:
""It's a good thing we had the firmness to eradicate the Jews in our domain. Don't ask how difficult that was. As soldiers, you should appreciate — if I may put it that way — the difficulty of carrying out such an order. Also, as soldiers thinking only of what is best for Germany, you must, after critical examination, come to the logical conclusion that it was necessary. For the bombings alone would have been unbearable if we still had the Jews in our cities. I am likewise convinced that the front at Lemberg, in the Government General, could not have been held if we still had the large ghettos in Lemberg, Cracow, Lublin, and Warsaw. The summer of 1943 was the last possible time for clearing out the last big ghetto, the one in War saw, which had — I might as well give the figure — over 500,000 Jews, and that took five weeks of house-to-house combat. The ghettos, no matter how sealed off they may have been, were the centers of every kind of partisan and bandit activity. Likewise, they were breeding-grounds for the toxins of demoralization behind the lines ...

I also want to answer a question which I am sure is on your minds. The question is: "Yes, of course, you're killing the adult Jews. I can understand that. But what about the women and children?" — Well, I have to tell you something. One day those children will have grown up. How could we be so contemptibly dishonorable as to say: No, no! We're too weak for this. Our children can take care of them. Let them fight it out, too! When the little Jews of today are all grown up, they'll vent their Jewish hatred on our children and grandchildren, who will have the same problem to solve as we did...

As I said, we had five weeks of house to house fighting in Warsaw, and we cleaned out 700 bunkers — cellar fortifications — sometimes one on top of the other. When we got finished with one block, they suddenly came at us from behind. The Jew always has his catacombs, passages, tunnels. It is an ancient system. He's been a nomad from time immemorial. — As I said, this was the last possible time for this, and I don't believe that otherwise we could so easily have held the front in the Government General.142"

Even these excerpts — Peterson and Smith do not give the whole texts of the speeches — must be regarded with skepticism, for they were taken from documents that are manifestly unreliable. In contrast to the Posen speeches, however, they show rather clearly that Himmler refers to the execution of Jews only in connection with the fight against partisans and other bandits operating behind the German lines on the eastern front."
http://codoh.com/library/document/230/

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:27 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women)...
Are you able and willing to render a more accurate translation of the parts in question then?

What? Again with this? :lol:

Dude, save yourself the trouble and just start blathering about "cheap suits" and "tides turning".

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:57 am

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women). Of course deportations started before the uprising; but Himmler argued that the intensity of the armed uprising proved that it was right to dismantle the ghettos as security risks that would only have increased as the Soviets advanced.
Unable to explain, by quoting the relevant parts of the passage, you simply re-assert what's been shown to be wrong. Brilliant.

Noted that you continue to dodge the request to tell us about the other ghettos mentioned by Himmler - and that you keep trying to pretend that Himmler mentioned only Warsaw.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:04 am

Monstrous wrote:"Finally, on June 21, 1944, again before a gathering of generals at Sonthofen, he stated:
""It's a good thing we had the firmness to eradicate the Jews in our domain. Don't ask how difficult that was. As soldiers, you should appreciate — if I may put it that way — the difficulty of carrying out such an order. Also, as soldiers thinking only of what is best for Germany, you must, after critical examination, come to the logical conclusion that it was necessary. For the bombings alone would have been unbearable if we still had the Jews in our cities. I am likewise convinced that the front at Lemberg, in the Government General, could not have been held if we still had the large ghettos in Lemberg, Cracow, Lublin, and Warsaw. The summer of 1943 was the last possible time for clearing out the last big ghetto, the one in War saw, which had — I might as well give the figure — over 500,000 Jews, and that took five weeks of house-to-house combat. The ghettos, no matter how sealed off they may have been, were the centers of every kind of partisan and bandit activity. Likewise, they were breeding-grounds for the toxins of demoralization behind the lines ...

I also want to answer a question which I am sure is on your minds. The question is: "Yes, of course, you're killing the adult Jews. I can understand that. But what about the women and children?" — Well, I have to tell you something. One day those children will have grown up. How could we be so contemptibly dishonorable as to say: No, no! We're too weak for this. Our children can take care of them. Let them fight it out, too! When the little Jews of today are all grown up, they'll vent their Jewish hatred on our children and grandchildren, who will have the same problem to solve as we did...

As I said, we had five weeks of house to house fighting in Warsaw, and we cleaned out 700 bunkers — cellar fortifications — sometimes one on top of the other. When we got finished with one block, they suddenly came at us from behind. The Jew always has his catacombs, passages, tunnels. It is an ancient system. He's been a nomad from time immemorial. — As I said, this was the last possible time for this, and I don't believe that otherwise we could so easily have held the front in the Government General.142"
As has been stated over and over, the topic of the excerpt here, even according to Monstrous's translation, is "the eradication of Jews" in the German domain, and examples of actions and their rationale, not anti-partisan operations in general. Himmler even mentions "if we still had the Jews in our cities" in contrast to Jews in areas to the east. Next we will hear about the necessity of military operations against German-Jewish partisans?

I will also state again that Himmler's statement is not accurate about Warsaw - according to Monstrous logic, therefore, he never made the speech. Of course, the Nazi paranoid vision cast Jews as a security threat - who has ever argued differently?- and tried justifying extermination actions against Jews on that basis. But that argument flies in the face of the facts, which Monstrous still can't get his head around, concerning operations like the ones against Warsaw as well as Lviv, Krakow, Lublin, and other ghettos.

It appears that Monstrous has finally come around to admit that Himmler is speaking about the full sweep of German actions against the Warsaw ghetto - but now tries justifying the 1942 action as some king of preemptive strike against innocent Jewish civilians. Their true colors always show at some point ...
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:27 pm

Thanks, Monstrous. But I can't quite make it out, you seem to have quoted a few things. Will you tell us how much of that is your work?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women). Of course deportations started before the uprising; but Himmler argued that the intensity of the armed uprising proved that it was right to dismantle the ghettos as security risks that would only have increased as the Soviets advanced.
Unable to explain, by quoting the relevant parts of the passage, you simply re-assert what's been shown to be wrong. Brilliant.

Noted that you continue to dodge the request to tell us about the other ghettos mentioned by Himmler - and that you keep trying to pretend that Himmler mentioned only Warsaw.
What about the other ghettos? Himmler stated that the ghettos were security risks and cited the long uprising in the Warsaw ghetto as proof of this being a correct view. But, again, the deportations started long before the uprising - Jews were viewed as security risk long before the uprising due to Jews being seen as having caused the defeat in WWI - there is no claim that deportations started only after or due only to partisan activities.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:29 pm


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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:53 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Not hidden at all - the main point is crystal clear: the operations to which Himmler made general reference against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto were not connected with war against partisans - the operations began before ghetto defense groups armed themselves and were carried out against 100s of 1000s of defenseless Jews.
Ah, I think you like Terry are badly confused by the very poor and misleading English translation of the speech (so poor it is more like a fabrication). It is quite clear that Himmler is using the long armed Warsaw uprising in order to argue the security risk caused by the ghettos and the necessity of his harsh orders in regards to the uprising (including killing of children and women). Of course deportations started before the uprising; but Himmler argued that the intensity of the armed uprising proved that it was right to dismantle the ghettos as security risks that would only have increased as the Soviets advanced.
Unable to explain, by quoting the relevant parts of the passage, you simply re-assert what's been shown to be wrong. Brilliant.

Noted that you continue to dodge the request to tell us about the other ghettos mentioned by Himmler - and that you keep trying to pretend that Himmler mentioned only Warsaw.
What about the other ghettos? Himmler stated that the ghettos were security risks and cited the long uprising in the Warsaw ghetto as proof of this being a correct view. But, again, the deportations started long before the uprising - Jews were viewed as security risk long before the uprising due to Jews being seen as having caused the defeat in WWI - there is no claim that deportations started only after or due only to partisan activities.
Yeah, Jews were killed because the Germans "viewed" Jews as a security risk, a health risk, Communists, useless mouths, etc. Of course, the German murderers attached negative but irrational ideas to Jews. What's your point? You've basically just given us the rationale for genocide. If I ever need a lawyer, I would not want someone with your intelligence.

Anyway, while you're at it, let's drill down a bit. What were the security concerns that supposedly motivated the spring 1942 action against the Lublin ghetto?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:00 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Anyway, while you're at it, let's drill down a bit. What were the security concerns that supposedly motivated the spring 1942 action against the Lublin ghetto?
This thread is about the Posen speeches.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:04 pm

Troll.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:39 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Anyway, while you're at it, let's drill down a bit. What were the security concerns that supposedly motivated the spring 1942 action against the Lublin ghetto?
This thread is about the Posen speeches.
You {!#%@} idiot, you've been going on about how other speeches supposedly support your view of Himmler's speeches at Posen - you've been posting pathetic attempts to refute Nick Terry's explanation of Himmler's speech at Sonthofen but now you try having it that we're not to reply to your stupid posts about this. 'Fraid not. I take your reply to me to be a cowardly admission that you've got no answer - and we can all agree that you thus cannot support your claim about Himmler's Sonthofen speech and we can agree also that that speech is a serious problem for you.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:46 pm

This is the Mattogno translation, which I do not trust as much as the one used in Fleming.
"It's a good thing we had the firmness to eradicate the Jews in our domain. Don't ask how difficult that was. As soldiers, you should appreciate — if I may put it that way — the difficulty of carrying out such an order. Also, as soldiers thinking only of what is best for Germany, you must, after critical examination, come to the logical conclusion that it was necessary. For the bombings alone would have been unbearable if we still had the Jews in our cities. I am likewise convinced that the front at Lemberg, in the Government General, could not have been held if we still had the large ghettos in Lemberg, Cracow, Lublin, and Warsaw. The summer of 1943 was the last possible time for clearing out the last big ghetto, the one in War saw, which had — I might as well give the figure — over 500,000 Jews, and that took five weeks of house-to-house combat. The ghettos, no matter how sealed off they may have been, were the centers of every kind of partisan and bandit activity. Likewise, they were breeding-grounds for the toxins of demoralization behind the lines ...

I also want to answer a question which I am sure is on your minds. The question is: "Yes, of course, you're killing the adult Jews. I can understand that. But what about the women and children?" — Well, I have to tell you something. One day those children will have grown up. How could we be so contemptibly dishonorable as to say: No, no! We're too weak for this. Our children can take care of them. Let them fight it out, too! When the little Jews of today are all grown up, they'll vent their Jewish hatred on our children and grandchildren, who will have the same problem to solve as we did...
He admits to killing women and children. Recall that a decent chunk of the deportees in the 1943 clearing were sent to TII. Recall also that by that point the "Russian east" was no more.

At the beginning he acknowledges the general eradication of Jews in the German domain. This {!#%@} Monstrous six ways to Sunday.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:06 pm

Which is why he wants to cut off conversation about it. LOL.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:30 am

Jeff_36 wrote:This is the Mattogno translation, which I do not trust as much as the one used in Fleming.
"It's a good thing we had the firmness to eradicate the Jews in our domain. Don't ask how difficult that was. As soldiers, you should appreciate — if I may put it that way — the difficulty of carrying out such an order. Also, as soldiers thinking only of what is best for Germany, you must, after critical examination, come to the logical conclusion that it was necessary. For the bombings alone would have been unbearable if we still had the Jews in our cities. I am likewise convinced that the front at Lemberg, in the Government General, could not have been held if we still had the large ghettos in Lemberg, Cracow, Lublin, and Warsaw. The summer of 1943 was the last possible time for clearing out the last big ghetto, the one in War saw, which had — I might as well give the figure — over 500,000 Jews, and that took five weeks of house-to-house combat. The ghettos, no matter how sealed off they may have been, were the centers of every kind of partisan and bandit activity. Likewise, they were breeding-grounds for the toxins of demoralization behind the lines ...

I also want to answer a question which I am sure is on your minds. The question is: "Yes, of course, you're killing the adult Jews. I can understand that. But what about the women and children?" — Well, I have to tell you something. One day those children will have grown up. How could we be so contemptibly dishonorable as to say: No, no! We're too weak for this. Our children can take care of them. Let them fight it out, too! When the little Jews of today are all grown up, they'll vent their Jewish hatred on our children and grandchildren, who will have the same problem to solve as we did...
He admits to killing women and children. Recall that a decent chunk of the deportees in the 1943 clearing were sent to TII. Recall also that by that point the "Russian east" was no more.

At the beginning he acknowledges the general eradication of Jews in the German domain. This {!#%@} Monstrous six ways to Sunday.
Confused, not up to date, and incorrect as usual. It is not Mattogno who made this translation. Ausrottung = eradicate has the usual problems mentioned earlier in this thread. The "women and children" have been discussed many times earlier in this thread. In short, it is located between statements on the Warsawa uprising and therefore refers to the killings taking place there. That women and children were killed there is well known, and was also likely widely known among German leaders, which is why Himmler apparently felt a need to justify this in almost every "secrect speech".

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:43 pm

^It clearly is in reference to a general solution, with Warsaw used as an example. Read the {!#%@} speech bro.

Ausrottung in this context means killing, see the list I posted earlier for examples of precedent.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:03 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:^It clearly is in reference to a general solution, with Warsaw used as an example. Read the {!#%@} speech bro.
plus: "When the little Jews of today are all grown up, they'll vent their Jewish hatred on our children and grandchildren, who will have the same problem to solve as we did."
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:32 pm

Monstrous wrote:It is not Mattogno who made this translation.
Who did? Graf? Perhaps while running a temperature?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:59 pm

Covered in the Mattogno, Kues, & Graf reply to the HC White Paper, pp 500-501 (pp 575-576 here); Monstrous's initial quotation of this wasn't explained clearly in the thread
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:42 pm

Here’s what a member of an Einsatzgruppe (SK 4a), Karl Kretschmer, wrote in a letter to his wife on Sunday, 27 September 1942, explaining how he understood his orders:
. . . I am in a very gloomy mood. I must pull myself out of it. The sight of the dead (including women and children) is not very cheering. But we are fighting this war for the survival or non-survival of our people. You back home, thank God, do not feel the full force of that. The bomb attacks have, however, shown what the enemy has in store for us if he has enough power. You are aware of it everywhere you go along the front. My comrades are literally fighting for the existence of our people. The enemy would do the same. I think that you understand me. As the war is in our opinion a Jewish war, the Jews are the first to feel it. Here in Russia, wherever the German solider is, no Jew remains. You can imagine that at first I needed some time to get to grips with this. . . .
in Klee, Dressen & Riess, "The Good Old Days": The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders, p 163

Here Kretschmer wrote that his SK was killing women and children to ensure Germany's survival against its Jewish enemy - in fulfillment of the German strategy, which his Kommando was implementing and which he found personally difficult, of making certain that in the occupied East "no Jew remains."
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:20 am

In his interview with Goldensohn, Göring matter of factly noted that he heard Himmler's Posen speeches for the first time when they were read at Nuremberg - he didn't contest the authenticity of the speeches but instead complained about Himmler.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here’s what a member of an Einsatzgruppe (SK 4a), Karl Kretschmer, wrote in a letter to his wife on Sunday, 27 September 1942, explaining how he understood his orders:
. . . I am in a very gloomy mood. I must pull myself out of it. The sight of the dead (including women and children) is not very cheering. But we are fighting this war for the survival or non-survival of our people. You back home, thank God, do not feel the full force of that. The bomb attacks have, however, shown what the enemy has in store for us if he has enough power. You are aware of it everywhere you go along the front. My comrades are literally fighting for the existence of our people. The enemy would do the same. I think that you understand me. As the war is in our opinion a Jewish war, the Jews are the first to feel it. Here in Russia, wherever the German solider is, no Jew remains. You can imagine that at first I needed some time to get to grips with this. . . .
in Klee, Dressen & Riess, "The Good Old Days": The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders, p 163

Here Kretschmer wrote that his SK was killing women and children to ensure Germany's survival against its Jewish enemy - in fulfillment of the German strategy, which his Kommando was implementing and which he found personally difficult, of making certain that in the occupied East "no Jew remains."
Evidence for nothing. The women and children could be among those killed by the mentioned Soviet bombing. The Jews were moved to ghettos by so most German soldiers would not see any remaining Jews in Russia. Furthermore, revisionists have not denied that many Jews were killed by the EG and others but that is not the same as an extermination.