Posen Speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:42 pm

Jeff_36 wrote: Re VDBZ: He was far from a bought witness. In fact he spent the rest of his life in prison and would make numerous confessions to West German judicial officials.
Bought. Never faced trials for war crimes or extradited as promised by the Allies which would have caused the death penalty. Germany much later instead imprisoned him for prewar crimes.
Jeff_36 wrote: Pohl: He could easily have denied being present like Speer. Yet he chose not to. Damming.
Pohl had already been tortured and forced to sign false confessions regarding being aware of the Holocaust so his options were rather limited at this point. The best he could do, and did, was to state that he had attempted to oppose the Holocaust.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Weberb.html
Jeff_36 wrote: Hildebrandt explicitly stated that he had heard the speech.
Where?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:46 pm

Pohl openly complained about his torture in interviews, and yet did not swear off his having heard the speech.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:49 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
MR. ROBINS : Witness, after you heard Himmler’s speech in Poznan, you had no doubt that the policy of the Reich and the policy of the SS were committed to the extermination of the Jews, did you?

DEFENDANT FRANK: Yes, quite.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: Was that in '42 or '43 ?

MR. ROBBINS: October '43, your Honor. You say you did not have any doubt?

DEFENDANT FRANK: It was in October 1943 when I heard Himmler's speech at Poznan and I heard it as chief of the administration of the police.

Q. And at that time it became clear to you that the policy of the Reich was the extermination of the Jews? I did not quite get your answer?

A. No doubt could be possible anymore after that. As a man of thinking faculties I had to deduce from Himmler's speech what he wanted to say.
He is not being ambiguous at all here.
That there is "no doubt" regarding what Himmler "wanted to say" is a "deduction" by Frank...

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:02 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Pohl openly complained about his torture in interviews, and yet did not swear off his having heard the speech.
Source?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:20 pm

I am pressed for time now but I will get it for you later today if possible. It was an interview where he claimed to have been mistreated But made no mention of the speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:23 pm

Oh, another point. There is no debate regarding if the Soviets fabricated evidence on a massive scale. We know they did. Even the Believers are forced to admit the large forgery of all kinds of evidence supporting that the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre, forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission, death by electrocution on a conveyor belt at Auschwitz, and so. Even many Believers may have doubts that diesel exhaust was really used for mass killings as claimed by the Soviets. Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:47 pm

The katyn deception was more or less always known.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:48 pm

Had the eg reports been the same it would have been realized by real historians long ago

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:29 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . the 1943 December 16 speech where it is clear that the children and women Himmler is speaking about are the relatives of partisans.
No, it isn't clear. You continue to assert and re-assert whatever you please without paying attention to the words the man used.
Whoops, read this post too fast, yes, that is clear in the December speech - but it has no connection to the 6 October speech. In the one case, December, from the excerpt I've seen, Himmler is addressing the anti-partisan warfare waged by the Germans; in the October case, on the other hand, he is speaking about the Jewish question. Two different topics, similar criminal conduct.
Himmler used very similar phrases and language in the October Posen speeches and the December speech except for it being clear in the December speech that he has speaking about partisans and their relatives and not Jews generally. As I said, the October speeches are likely edited and originally stated the same as the December speech which was missed by the editors.
There is no proof that the October speech was "edited"; there are apparent corrections of the sort routinely made in the era of typewriters. You don't get to assert what you've not proved, no matter how many times you repeat yourself. First you lied and said that Irving hadn't dated the type corrections to the war period; now you just repeat yourself. The October speeches clearly refer to the extermination of the Jews, as you have now been forced to admit - earlier you tried saying that they referred to anti-partisan operations but when that didn't work out, you changed your argument.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:42 pm

Monstrous wrote:Oh, another point. There is no debate regarding if the Soviets fabricated evidence on a massive scale. We know they did. Even the Believers are forced to admit the large forgery of all kinds of evidence supporting that the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre,
No one is "forced to admit" this; it's a fact. The fact that the Soviets did this with regard to Katyn doesn't prove that they forged documents pertaining to the killing of Jews, whose victimization they tended to downplay and subsume into the great heroic Soviet peoples narrative. Also, your examples, which are piss-poor, hardly show something occurring on a "massive scale," even if we take them all seriously.
Monstrous wrote:forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission
Citation and proof of forgery?
Monstrous wrote:Even many Believers may have doubts that diesel exhaust was really used for mass killings as claimed by the Soviets.
The misunderstanding that diesel was used to kill Jews in Aktion Reinhard camps was not a Soviet falsification - a number of witnesses, many who never inspected the engines and some who were repeating hearsay, and a few with access to the engines IIRC, stated that the engines feeding the exhaust to the gas chambers were diesel - whilst many other witnesses said petrol.
Monstrous wrote:Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries.
The discussion isn't about what "in principle" could happen - it is trying to get you to show evidence for what did happen. You must have none, because you keep failing to produce any.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:57 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: Hildebrandt explicitly stated that he had heard the speech.
Where?
Oh good grief. When sources are detailed, all we get from Monstrous is more "alleged" etc. Anyway, "The spontaneous corroboration of the contents of the Poznan speech was given by the witness Hildebrandt, who was himself convicted before one of these Tribunals and who received a 25-year sentence." - NMT trial, Ernst von Weizsaecker, et al. ("Ministries Case"), Green Series, vol XI, judgment against Berger, p 539
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . the 1943 December 16 speech where it is clear that the children and women Himmler is speaking about are the relatives of partisans.
No, it isn't clear. You continue to assert and re-assert whatever you please without paying attention to the words the man used.
Whoops, read this post too fast, yes, that is clear in the December speech - but it has no connection to the 6 October speech. In the one case, December, from the excerpt I've seen, Himmler is addressing the anti-partisan warfare waged by the Germans; in the October case, on the other hand, he is speaking about the Jewish question. Two different topics, similar criminal conduct.
Himmler used very similar phrases and language in the October Posen speeches and the December speech except for it being clear in the December speech that he has speaking about partisans and their relatives and not Jews generally. As I said, the October speeches are likely edited and originally stated the same as the December speech which was missed by the editors.
There is no proof that the October speech was "edited"; there are apparent corrections of the sort routinely made in the era of typewriters. You don't get to assert what you've not proved, no matter how many times you repeat yourself. First you lied and said that Irving hadn't dated the type corrections to the war period; now you just repeat yourself. The October speeches clearly refer to the extermination of the Jews, as you have now been forced to admit - earlier you tried saying that they referred to anti-partisan operations but when that didn't work out, you changed your argument.
Irving said nothing definitively regarding the date of the retyping and how could he know anything regarding that? What is uncontested is that critical speeches had their critical parts retyped at some point. You are imagining things regarding my earlier statements. I have always said that the Posen speeches in their original form referred to anti-partisan activities but they have been edited afterwards.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:10 am

Irving said it was during the war ("[Himmler] he had that page retyped
 making no reference to a Fuhrer order"); you said he didn't ("Irving made no claim as to when the re-typing occurred"). You also wrote, "Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries." I am imagining nothing. Are you now changing your tune - and arguing that someone in Himmler's office or elsewhere within the government of the Third Reich altered the text from partisans to Jews?

I explained all this to you in this previous post and won't do so again.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission
Citation and proof of forgery?
Many, many, many examples of Soviet and other forgeries here:
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm

Regarding steam killings:
http://www.cwporter.com/pg2.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:17 am

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission
Citation and proof of forgery?
Many, many, many examples of Soviet and other forgeries here:
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm

Regarding steam killings:
http://www.cwporter.com/pg2.htm
I hope the other links are better, in terms of the question asked, than the one on "steam." (And no, I am not going to scroll through dozens of unrelated links to help you make an argument, something you seem utterly incapable of doing.) The "steam" link simply reprints well-known material from the IMT proceedings, namely a Polish government submission to the IMT, without any discussion of its provenance or proof of Soviet forgery. Try again.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Irving said it was during the war ("[Himmler] he had that page retyped
 making no reference to a Fuhrer order"); you said he didn't ("Irving made no claim as to when the re-typing occurred"). You also wrote, "Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries." I am imagining nothing. Are you now changing your tune - and arguing that someone in Himmler's office or elsewhere within the government of the Third Reich altered the text from partisans to Jews?

I explained all this to you in this previous post and won't do so again.
"I arrived at the very strange discovery when I looked at the transcript of both those speeches that those two pages had been retyped at some other date. I can't say whether it was retyped before or after the bulk of the speech, but they had been typed by a different secretary on a different typewriter using different carbon paper. Obviously you only discover this if you look at the original documents which the average historian is not patient enough to do. They had been retyped and they had been repaginated in pencil at that point and I have to say to preempt your question, I have no explanation why. It just raises the fact that a document -- if a document has been retyped at a key point, then I hold that document to be suspect."
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/35irving.html

No sure what you are blabbering about next. My position has always been the same and consistent regarding the Posen speeches.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission
Citation and proof of forgery?
Many, many, many examples of Soviet and other forgeries here:
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm

Regarding steam killings:
http://www.cwporter.com/pg2.htm
I hope the other links are better, in terms of the question asked, than the one on "steam." (And no, I am not going to scroll through dozens of unrelated links to help you make an argument, something you seem utterly incapable of doing.) The "steam" link simply reprints well-known material from the IMT proceedings, namely a Polish government submission to the IMT, without any discussion of its provenance or proof of Soviet forgery. Try again.
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:28 am

"All we can say is that for some reason this page was retyped at a different date. We do not whether it was retyped during the war, which is the likelihood. We do not know what has been inserted or taken out. On this occasion we do not have the other transcripts of that speech. So that is a page that I am unhappy about pinning a capital issue on. You do not often find a document that has been so clearly tampered with as that."
http://hdot.org/en/trial/transcripts/da ... 6-110.html

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:08 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Irving said it was during the war ("[Himmler] he had that page retyped
 making no reference to a Fuhrer order"); you said he didn't ("Irving made no claim as to when the re-typing occurred"). You also wrote, "Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries." I am imagining nothing. Are you now changing your tune - and arguing that someone in Himmler's office or elsewhere within the government of the Third Reich altered the text from partisans to Jews?

I explained all this to you in this previous post and won't do so again.
"I arrived at the very strange discovery when I looked at the transcript of both those speeches that those two pages had been retyped at some other date. I can't say whether it was retyped before or after the bulk of the speech, but they had been typed by a different secretary on a different typewriter using different carbon paper. Obviously you only discover this if you look at the original documents which the average historian is not patient enough to do. They had been retyped and they had been repaginated in pencil at that point and I have to say to preempt your question, I have no explanation why. It just raises the fact that a document -- if a document has been retyped at a key point, then I hold that document to be suspect."
http://www.ihr.org/books/kulaszka/35irving.html

No sure what you are blabbering about next. My position has always been the same and consistent regarding the Posen speeches.
Sigh. Irving: "[Himmler] had that page retyped
 making no reference to a Fuhrer order." Ergo: during the war. Deal with it and stop citing tangents to the point being discussed.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:10 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission
Citation and proof of forgery?
Many, many, many examples of Soviet and other forgeries here:
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm

Regarding steam killings:
http://www.cwporter.com/pg2.htm
I hope the other links are better, in terms of the question asked, than the one on "steam." (And no, I am not going to scroll through dozens of unrelated links to help you make an argument, something you seem utterly incapable of doing.) The "steam" link simply reprints well-known material from the IMT proceedings, namely a Polish government submission to the IMT, without any discussion of its provenance or proof of Soviet forgery. Try again.
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.
Well, first of all, it is not obviously a forgery for being an incorrect claim - errors, mistakes, bad assumptions, etc happen to occur. Perhaps some leaps of judgment or bad perceptions or rumors led to some erroneous conclusions. That does not constitute forgery. Second, you continue to squirm around and re-state your claims as they are shot down. You said Soviet - you can't prove anything of the sort. I am well familiar with the so-called steam issue - and it is in no way an example of Soviet chicanery as you tried making out. Good that you're backtracking - better if you'd stop being dishonest.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:51 pm

Fact: all talk of steam killings originate from one report. There were many contemporary reports that spoke of gas being the method.

See the Vendel Report.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by nickterry » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:54 pm

Monstrous wrote:Oh, another point. There is no debate regarding if the Soviets fabricated evidence on a massive scale. We know they did. Even the Believers are forced to admit the large forgery of all kinds of evidence supporting that the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre, forgery of evidence for killings by steam in concentration camps as testified by an entire Soviet commission, death by electrocution on a conveyor belt at Auschwitz, and so. Even many Believers may have doubts that diesel exhaust was really used for mass killings as claimed by the Soviets. Forging the EG and Posen documents is in principle no different from the other now confirmed Soviet forgeries.
Except none of the examples you cited are cases of forgery, and several of them weren't even errors or falsehoods propagated by the Soviets.

1. There are no Nazi documents attributing Katyn to the Nazis. Instead the Soviets relied on the same types of evidence as the Nazis, i.e. witnesses and forensics. As the Nazis had reported first the Soviets had to fabricate very little, simply twisting the arms of a small number of eyewitnesses and persuading forensic experts to spew a different brand of technobabble, as can be seen in the IMT transcript with the Bulgarian expert who visited the site.

2. There are no Nazi documents attributing steam chambers to Treblinka or anywhere else. Instead this was an early report mistake that was recycled into the Nuremberg trial era by the Polish government-in-exile's legal specialist Tadeusz Cyrian, writing in London. Cyprian chose to join the postwar Polish government which was multi-party until well after the main Nuremberg trial. By contrast, the 1944 Soviet investigation and the 1945 Polish government investigation agreed on the use of engines and gas chambers. 3311-PS confirms the London origin of 'steam' at Nuremberg
http://www.cwporter.com/textfile1.htm
The text which refers to Treblinka A and B confirms the recycling of the November 1942 Hersz Wasser report.

3. There are no Nazi documents about electric conveyor belts at Auschwitz. Instead the Pravda correspondent Boris Polevoi mentioned this in a newspaper article on 2 February 1945. The correspondent of Komsomolskaya Pravda who was on-site at the same time did not mention this and instead talked of Zyklon B gas chambers.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... z-and.html
Polevoi's reporting from IMT included quite a few sensationalised, made-up details, suggesting he was the Soviet equivalent of a tabloid journalist. The Soviet press spoke of gas chambers before liberation and after liberation, with this solitary exception. The Polish press in the spring of 1945 also spoke of gas chambers and not of electrocution conveyor belts. There are also no survivor testimonies so far uncovered that come from survivors transferred away before liberation that refer to electrocution conveyor belts - there are however some survivor testimonies reporting hearsay that conveyor belts rather than lifts brought bodies from the gas chambers to the crematoria, a not unsurprising distortion of the Krema II/III layout.

4. There are no Nazi documents about electrocution facilities at any other camp, either. The Soviet prosecution at IMT did include an allusion to electrocution at Belzec (misspelled, IIRC) but this was recycled from wartime rumours, and was contradicted by the Soviets' and Poles' own investigations in 1944-45, i.e. before IMT, which located one of two survivors of the camp, Rudolf Reder, who repeatedly testified about petrol engines.

5. There are no Nazi documents about diesel gassing engines used either in vans or in camps. Claims about diesel engines in use were made in both the east and the west independently of each other, alongside claims about petrol engines. "The Soviets" only once publicised the use of diesel engines, at the Krasnodar trials re gas vans, yet every other source on gas vans from the 1940s and thereafter spoke of petrol engines being used or ignored the engine issue. When different Soviet military commands captured and interrogated in 1944-45 Trawnikis assigned to Treblinka, they heard first about petrol engines then others spoke of diesel. Since there were diesel generators in the camp for the power supply the confusion is understandable. The most famous 'diesel' witness was of course Kurt Gerstein, captured and interrogated by the French.

So all of your examples are entirely irrelevant to the question of whether Soviet authorities fabricated Nazi documents. Considering that leading revisionists like Carlo Mattogno make extensive use of Soviet-captured Nazi documents and do not declare them to be forgeries, then there is almost universal agreement that the Soviets did not forge Nazi documents.

Since the Posen speech and the Ereignismeldungen were discovered in Nazi document caches captured by the Americans, alleging that "the Soviets" (which ones? which department?) forged them is completely nonsensical. While there certainly were Soviet agents in the US government at the time, they were generally in Washington, DC or Los Alamos, and none of the agents exposed during or after the Cold War were involved in document management during the Nuremberg trials or in the National Archives.

The problem with forgery claims about Nazi documents is the same facts and ideas found in IMT or NMT documents are also found in documents that were simply archived - on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

The Posen speech was used at IMT, the Sonthofen speech was not - and it was discovered by historians in Himmler's extraordinarily jumbled Personalstab RFSS papers, captured, archived and microfilmed by the Americans. Goebbels' reaction to the 2nd Posen speech to the Reichs- and Gauleiter was recorded in his diary, which was split between east and west. The relevant entry may well have been in the portion discovered in Moscow during the 1990s, but the preservation of the diaries on glass plates prohibits the possibility of any subtle editing or fragmentary insertion.

Since Himmler preached the same essential message about the extermination of the Jews in multiple speeches to audiences of Wehrmacht generals from late 1943 to mid 1944, we have multiple reactions and confirmations from generals who were never in Soviet captivity, eg from General of Panzer Troops Eberbach as recorded in CSDIC bugged conversation transcripts, or from Rudolf von Gersdorff in his 1970s memoirs. Eberbach's reaction predates the discovery of the Posen speech in 1945.

The same pattern extends to the rare documents referring to gassing - for example, the US found 501-PS, a bundle of documents about gas vans, in 1945, and used them for IMT. They also had another RSHA files with a document just as explicit about gas vans being used to kill human beings in the SS papers, which were microfilmed in the 1950s. The document was known by the 1960s to lawyers and historians. Meanwhile, the Soviets captured other RSHA files, including a report from Einsatzgruppe B referring to the arrival of two additional Gaswagen, giving license plate numbers. This document was used in East German war crimes trials but was unknown to historians until the 1990s.

The license plate numbers in the Soviet-archived report match the sequence of numbers in the US-microfilmed RSHA file; but one of the exact license plate numbers was given in a Polish underground report from Auschwitz in autumn 1944, identifying the arrival of gas vans (which had obviously retreated from Russia/Belorussia during 1944) in the Auschwitz area and their use by the Gestapo (i.e the same agency that controlled Einsatzgruppe B).
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s-gas.html

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:23 pm

we have multiple reactions and confirmations from generals who were never in Soviet captivity, eg from General of Panzer Troops Eberbach as recorded in CSDIC bugged conversation transcripts, or from Rudolf von Gersdorff in his 1970s memoirs. Eberbach's reaction predates the discovery of the Posen speech in 1945.
Thank you for your excellent post Dr. Terry. I have been searching like mad for contemporary references to these speeches ever since this topic started and I admit to having not come across the ones you mentioned in the quoted excerpt.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:41 pm

so far we have

Von Dem Bach Zeilewski

Von Gersdorff

Eberbach

Engel

Goebbles

Pohl

Frank

Speer

Baldur von Schirach

Gersdorff also made a declaration in 1979 to Gerald Fleming that he had heard Himmler make exterminatory statements in January 1944. (Fleming, Hitler and the Final solution, 1984, pg. 53)

I think this does it.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:25 pm

also: Hildebrandt, Berger
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by nickterry » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:35 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
we have multiple reactions and confirmations from generals who were never in Soviet captivity, eg from General of Panzer Troops Eberbach as recorded in CSDIC bugged conversation transcripts, or from Rudolf von Gersdorff in his 1970s memoirs. Eberbach's reaction predates the discovery of the Posen speech in 1945.
Thank you for your excellent post Dr. Terry. I have been searching like mad for contemporary references to these speeches ever since this topic started and I admit to having not come across the ones you mentioned in the quoted excerpt.
Quite likely in Soenke Neitzel's book Tapping Hitler's Generals; I looked at the original CSDIC files before this was published so am going on my notes/memory with this one.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Nessie » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:01 pm

Monstrous wrote:.......
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.
That is a typical denier/revisionist non sequitur. It is amazing how reliant denial/revisionism on logical fallacies.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:16 pm

Nessie wrote:
Monstrous wrote:.......
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.
That is a typical denier/revisionist non sequitur. It is amazing how reliant denial/revisionism on logical fallacies.

I don't get the impression he's clear on the definition of "forgery". So, for his edification:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... sh/forgery

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:23 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Monstrous wrote:.......
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.
That is a typical denier/revisionist non sequitur. It is amazing how reliant denial/revisionism on logical fallacies.

I don't get the impression he's clear on the definition of "forgery". So, for his edification:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... sh/forgery
LOL, bingo!
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:41 pm

Jeff_36 is still not impressed with monstrous and is amused by his continued use of tired and long debunked tropes, next thing you know he'll break out the "lampshade" myth that Jeff_36 considers to be a automatic concession of defeat in any debate.

In Jeff_36's opinion, monstrous has continued to fight a lost war: the contemporary confirmations are now so piled up (see Jeff_36's earlier post) that monstrous has little else to say.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:47 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Xcalibur wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Monstrous wrote:.......
No one is today claiming steam killings so obviously it is a forgery. Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting.
That is a typical denier/revisionist non sequitur. It is amazing how reliant denial/revisionism on logical fallacies.

I don't get the impression he's clear on the definition of "forgery". So, for his edification:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... sh/forgery
LOL, bingo!

Here's a legal definition more to our purposes:

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-ch ... rgery.html

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:37 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
we have multiple reactions and confirmations from generals who were never in Soviet captivity, eg from General of Panzer Troops Eberbach as recorded in CSDIC bugged conversation transcripts, or from Rudolf von Gersdorff in his 1970s memoirs. Eberbach's reaction predates the discovery of the Posen speech in 1945.
Thank you for your excellent post Dr. Terry. I have been searching like mad for contemporary references to these speeches ever since this topic started and I admit to having not come across the ones you mentioned in the quoted excerpt.
Exactly what are these persons alleged to have stated according to which sources?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:41 pm

that the speech was legit and he mentioned extermination. I have explicitly supplied a reference for you.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:45 pm

We have been over and over this. Monstrous either runs in circles or goes off on tangents to avoid dealing with what's unpleasant to his claims. So far everything he's claimed about Soviet forgeries has blown up in his face.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:56 pm

nickterry wrote: So all of your examples are entirely irrelevant to the question of whether Soviet authorities fabricated Nazi documents. Considering that leading revisionists like Carlo Mattogno make extensive use of Soviet-captured Nazi documents and do not declare them to be forgeries, then there is almost universal agreement that the Soviets did not forge Nazi documents.
Not all revisionists agrees with Mattogno on everything. Most revisionists consider the Wannsee protocol to be a forgery/editied but not Mattogno if I recall correctly.

Many revisionists argue that the most important documents regarding the gas vans are Soviet forgeries.
nickterry wrote: Since the Posen speech and the Ereignismeldungen were discovered in Nazi document caches captured by the Americans, alleging that "the Soviets" (which ones? which department?) forged them is completely nonsensical. While there certainly were Soviet agents in the US government at the time, they were generally in Washington, DC or Los Alamos, and none of the agents exposed during or after the Cold War were involved in document management during the Nuremberg trials or in the National Archives

The problem with forgery claims about Nazi documents is the same facts and ideas found in IMT or NMT documents are also found in documents that were simply archived - on both sides of the Iron Curtain.
.
Again, it was the Soviets who captured Berlin and the archives there. All of these archives were thus under Soviet control for a period before being "captured" by Americans.
nickterry wrote: The Posen speech was used at IMT, the Sonthofen speech was not - and it was discovered by historians in Himmler's extraordinarily jumbled Personalstab RFSS papers, captured, archived and microfilmed by the Americans. Goebbels' reaction to the 2nd Posen speech to the Reichs- and Gauleiter was recorded in his diary, which was split between east and west. The relevant entry may well have been in the portion discovered in Moscow during the 1990s, but the preservation of the diaries on glass plates prohibits the possibility of any subtle editing or fragmentary insertion. .
The diary only speaks of "rooting out" "(auszurotten)

At the very least, Carlos Porter collection of ridiculous Nuremberg claims demonstrate the show trail nature and that the Soviets would not have hesitated for a moment regarding forging/editing documents..
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:06 pm

"some of the most important Nuremberg documents are now generally acknowledged to be fraudulent. /47

For example, defense attorney Dr. Boehm protested to the Tribunal that Nuremberg document 1721-PS, which purportedly confirms attacks by stormtroopers against Jewish synagogues in November 1938, is a clumsy forgery. He went on to explain his reasons at some length. /48

Several Nuremberg documents based on the purported "death bed confession" of Mauthausen commandant Franz Ziereis, are demonstrably fraudulent. (Nuremberg documents 1515-PS, 3870-PS, and NO-1973.) These documents supposedly prove systematic killings of hundreds of thousands of people by gassing and other means at Mauthausen and Hartheim. /49

Almost forty years after the Tribunal handed down its verdicts, Nuremberg document USSR-378 was definitively exposed as a fraud. It is a purported record of numerous private conversations with Hitler by Hermann Rauschning, a former National Socialist official in Danzig. In brutal language, the Führer supposedly revealed his most intimate thoughts and secret plans for world conquest. Rauschning's "memoir" was published in 1939 in Britain under the title Hitler Speaks, and in the United States in 1940 as The Voice of Destruction. It was this US edition that was accepted in evidence at Nuremberg as proof of the "guiding principles of the Nazi regime."

Chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross and his Soviet colleagues cited numerous quotations from it. Defendant Baldur von Schirach contested its authenticity, but defense attorney Pelckmann (who did not know any better) accepted this "evidence" as authentic. /50 In 1983 Swiss historian Wolfgang Hänel established that the "memoir" is entirely fraudulent. Rauschning never had even a single private meeting with Hitler. /51

Another fraudulent Nuremberg document is the so-called "Hossbach protocol" (document 386-PS), a purported record of a high-level 1937 conference at which Hitler supposedly revealed his secret plans for aggressive conquest. US Nuremberg prosecutor Sidney Alderman called it "one of the most striking and revealing of all the captured documents," and told the Tribunal that it removed any remaining doubts about the guilt of the Germans leaders for their crimes against peace. It was largely on the basis of this document that Göring was condemned to death. /52

Similarly spurious is Nuremberg document L-3 (US-28), supposedly a record of a bellicose speech by Hitler to armed forces commanders on August 22, 1939. It contains a widely cited quotation attributed to Hitler, "Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" /53

Jewish historian Lucy Dawidowicz, author of The War Against the Jews, acknowledged that "There are also Holocaust documents that are outright falsification and some that purvey myth rather than historical fact." /54"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:03 pm

Monstrous wrote:At the very least, Carlos Porter collection of ridiculous Nuremberg claims demonstrate the show trail nature and that the Soviets would not have hesitated for a moment regarding forging/editing documents..
http://www.cwporter.com/partone.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/parttwo.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partthre.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/partfour.htm
Oh, grow up. Just above you acknowledged that the very first example on Porter's list was a charge leveled by the Poles, not the Soviets (you wrote, having been informed of your stupidity on this, "Whether it is a Polish or a Soviet one is not that interesting"). Further, you were shown that Porter didn't prove or even claim forgery - he simply reprinted an IMT document. Finally, Nessie, Xcalibur, Nick Terry, Jeff, and I all showed you that the Polish submission you cited was not a forgery at all. So here you are back singing the same discredited song you started out with. Jesus wept.
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:29 pm

Monstrous wrote:"some of the most important Nuremberg documents are now generally acknowledged to be fraudulent. /47

For example, defense attorney Dr. Boehm protested to the Tribunal that Nuremberg document 1721-PS, which purportedly confirms attacks by stormtroopers against Jewish synagogues in November 1938, is a clumsy forgery. He went on to explain his reasons at some length. /48

Several Nuremberg documents based on the purported "death bed confession" of Mauthausen commandant Franz Ziereis, are demonstrably fraudulent. (Nuremberg documents 1515-PS, 3870-PS, and NO-1973.) These documents supposedly prove systematic killings of hundreds of thousands of people by gassing and other means at Mauthausen and Hartheim. /49

Almost forty years after the Tribunal handed down its verdicts, Nuremberg document USSR-378 was definitively exposed as a fraud. It is a purported record of numerous private conversations with Hitler by Hermann Rauschning, a former National Socialist official in Danzig. In brutal language, the Führer supposedly revealed his most intimate thoughts and secret plans for world conquest. Rauschning's "memoir" was published in 1939 in Britain under the title Hitler Speaks, and in the United States in 1940 as The Voice of Destruction. It was this US edition that was accepted in evidence at Nuremberg as proof of the "guiding principles of the Nazi regime."

Chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross and his Soviet colleagues cited numerous quotations from it. Defendant Baldur von Schirach contested its authenticity, but defense attorney Pelckmann (who did not know any better) accepted this "evidence" as authentic. /50 In 1983 Swiss historian Wolfgang Hänel established that the "memoir" is entirely fraudulent. Rauschning never had even a single private meeting with Hitler. /51

Another fraudulent Nuremberg document is the so-called "Hossbach protocol" (document 386-PS), a purported record of a high-level 1937 conference at which Hitler supposedly revealed his secret plans for aggressive conquest. US Nuremberg prosecutor Sidney Alderman called it "one of the most striking and revealing of all the captured documents," and told the Tribunal that it removed any remaining doubts about the guilt of the Germans leaders for their crimes against peace. It was largely on the basis of this document that Göring was condemned to death. /52

Similarly spurious is Nuremberg document L-3 (US-28), supposedly a record of a bellicose speech by Hitler to armed forces commanders on August 22, 1939. It contains a widely cited quotation attributed to Hitler, "Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" /53

Jewish historian Lucy Dawidowicz, author of The War Against the Jews, acknowledged that "There are also Holocaust documents that are outright falsification and some that purvey myth rather than historical fact." /54"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html

I'm not sure what all this is doing in this thread, but whatever.

Well let's say we all agree that these documents are indeed forgeries. Now your burden of proof is to show how each of these forgeries affected the judgment rendered on each convicted defendant. I'll give you unil September 1, 2015 to prepare a response (much more generous terms than you'll get from the other forum members here, I assure you). This is your big chance to succeed where CW Porter failed, so I suggest you take up the challenge to strike a real blow for revisionism.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:11 am

Xcalibur wrote:I'm not sure what all this is doing in this thread, but whatever.
It's here to distract from his failure to provide even a mote of evidence for one of his central claims - that the Posen speech transcript was tampered with and, in connection with the EG reports, subject to same kind of Soviet monkey business. What he's doing has a scientific name - it is called "muddying the waters."
. . . all right we are two nations America our nation has been beaten by strangers who have bought the laws and fenced off the meadows and cut down the woods for pulp and turned our pleasant cities into slums and sweated the wealth out of our people . . . but do they know that the old words of the immigrants are being renewed in blood and agony tonight . . . the language of the beaten nation is not forgotten in our ears tonight

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by nickterry » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:11 am

Monstrous wrote:"some of the most important Nuremberg documents are now generally acknowledged to be fraudulent. /47

For example, defense attorney Dr. Boehm protested to the Tribunal that Nuremberg document 1721-PS, which purportedly confirms attacks by stormtroopers against Jewish synagogues in November 1938, is a clumsy forgery. He went on to explain his reasons at some length. /48
LOL so a defense attorney alleges forgery of documents that primarily record the destruction of synagogues known to have been destroyed on Kristallnacht. Are you serious?
Several Nuremberg documents based on the purported "death bed confession" of Mauthausen commandant Franz Ziereis, are demonstrably fraudulent. (Nuremberg documents 1515-PS, 3870-PS, and NO-1973.) These documents supposedly prove systematic killings of hundreds of thousands of people by gassing and other means at Mauthausen and Hartheim. /49
The Ziereis statement isn't a Nazi document, doofus. It was written down after the war by an ex-Mauthausen prisoner.
Almost forty years after the Tribunal handed down its verdicts, Nuremberg document USSR-378 was definitively exposed as a fraud. It is a purported record of numerous private conversations with Hitler by Hermann Rauschning, a former National Socialist official in Danzig. In brutal language, the Führer supposedly revealed his most intimate thoughts and secret plans for world conquest. Rauschning's "memoir" was published in 1939 in Britain under the title Hitler Speaks, and in the United States in 1940 as The Voice of Destruction. It was this US edition that was accepted in evidence at Nuremberg as proof of the "guiding principles of the Nazi regime."

Chief British prosecutor Sir Hartley Shawcross and his Soviet colleagues cited numerous quotations from it. Defendant Baldur von Schirach contested its authenticity, but defense attorney Pelckmann (who did not know any better) accepted this "evidence" as authentic. /50 In 1983 Swiss historian Wolfgang Hänel established that the "memoir" is entirely fraudulent. Rauschning never had even a single private meeting with Hitler. /51
This, too, is not a Nazi document.
Another fraudulent Nuremberg document is the so-called "Hossbach protocol" (document 386-PS), a purported record of a high-level 1937 conference at which Hitler supposedly revealed his secret plans for aggressive conquest. US Nuremberg prosecutor Sidney Alderman called it "one of the most striking and revealing of all the captured documents," and told the Tribunal that it removed any remaining doubts about the guilt of the Germans leaders for their crimes against peace. It was largely on the basis of this document that Göring was condemned to death. /52
Sorry, Weber is relying on out-dated denialist claims falsified by the discovery of a copy of the Hossbach Memorandum in 1989 and the existence of a parallel text in Ludwig Beck's Nachlass, i.e two further documents that confirm the IMT-submitted text - Hossbach himself had confirmed it in his memoirs postwar.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho%C3%9Fb ... derschrift
Bradley F. Smith: Die Überlieferung der Hoßbach-Niederschrift im Lichte neuer Quellen, in: Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 38 Jg., 1990, S. 329-336. http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1990_2.pdf
Similarly spurious is Nuremberg document L-3 (US-28), supposedly a record of a bellicose speech by Hitler to armed forces commanders on August 22, 1939. It contains a widely cited quotation attributed to Hitler, "Who talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" /53
Problem being, L-3 was passed to the IMT prosecution by Louis Lochner, a journalist, and was thus known not to have come from Nazi archives. The prosecution did not submit it at Nuremberg. This is a classic case of when not to trust a document - if it emerges on its lonesome, then forgery is a possibility, whereas cases of forged documents found in archival files are far, far, far, far, far rarer.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansprache ... ugust_1939

There are incidentally multiple file notes of this Hitler speech as well as summaries in multiple diaries (Halder, von Bock, von Leeb) so the core of the speech is extremely well attested - just not the spin-doctoring in L-03.
Jewish historian Lucy Dawidowicz, author of The War Against the Jews, acknowledged that "There are also Holocaust documents that are outright falsification and some that purvey myth rather than historical fact." /54"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html
This is too vague to be helpful here.