Posen Speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:30 am

So in this version the existence of the Holocaust was a complete surprise to most audience members. This does not fit very well with the claims earlier in this thread that the audience already knew of the Holocaust which would explain why no long discussion by Himmler was needed.
Few of the Gaulitiers would have been aware. That was shocking indeed. The attendees of the October 4th speech would not have been surprised for the most part.

You have yet to address the testimony of Pohl, Frank, and VDBZ as well.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:31 pm

Jeff_36 wrote: You have yet to address the testimony of Pohl, Frank, and VDBZ as well.
Again, you have an annoying habit of making claims without citing sources. Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski I have already answered. What are you claiming that Frank and Pohl have stated regarding the Posen speeches (with sources)?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:39 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . the 1943 December 16 speech where it is clear that the children and women Himmler is speaking about are the relatives of partisans.
No, it isn't clear. You continue to assert and re-assert whatever you please without paying attention to the words the man used.
This is maybe the most absurd argument, beside the fake and distorted recording one.
The war against Partisans, which was a great occasion to kill as many Jews as possible, was highly documented, and reported by the end of 1941. Some reports of the EG killing activities were published at 100 copies ( the last ones) and the general report covering the whole period was published at 65 copies.
The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread but we may note that even Believers have found the enormous numbers of supposed copies strange. Thus, quoting Butz in "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century": "Even Reitlinger seems puzzled by the existence of these reports and other documents, because he remarks: “It is not easy to see why the murderers left such an abundant testimony behind them, for in spite of their wide circulation list, Knobloch’s [the Gestapo official who edited the reports] reports seem to have been designed primarily to appeal to Himmler and Heydrich."".

The December 16 speech is absolutely clear: "Whenever I was forced to take steps against the partisans and Jewish commissars in some village — I'll say it for the information of this group only — I made it a point to give the order to kill the women and children of these partisans and commissars. I would be a weakling and I would be committing a crime against our descendants if I allowed the hate-filled sons of the sub-humans we have liquidated in this struggle of humanity against subhumanity to grow up. Believe me, easy though it may be to talk in the lecture hall about carrying the idea behind this order to its proper, logical conclusion, it was not so easy to give the order and is not so easy to execute it."

Likely this is also what Himmler stated in the other speeches (before they were "retyped").

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:47 pm

Jeff_36 wrote: Thanks for providing me with another credible witness by the way!
I am interested in the truth unlike Believers who believe.

Baldur von Schirach is not a particularly reliable source considering he obviously lied during the Nuremberg trials and his self-serving memoirs are not particularly trustworthy. No doubt the Gautleiters were shocked but not by Holocaust revelations but by Himmler stating that he had ordered the illegal killing of relatives of partisans.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:50 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . the 1943 December 16 speech where it is clear that the children and women Himmler is speaking about are the relatives of partisans.
No, it isn't clear. You continue to assert and re-assert whatever you please without paying attention to the words the man used.
Whoops, read this post too fast, yes, that is clear in the December speech - but it has no connection to the 6 October speech. In the one case, December, from the excerpt I've seen, Himmler is addressing the anti-partisan warfare waged by the Germans; in the October case, on the other hand, he is speaking about the Jewish question. Two different topics, similar criminal conduct.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:07 pm

Monstrous wrote:The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread but we may note that even Believers have found the enormous numbers of supposed copies strange. Thus, quoting Butz in "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century": "Even Reitlinger seems puzzled by the existence of these reports and other documents, because he remarks: “It is not easy to see why the murderers left such an abundant testimony behind them, for in spite of their wide circulation list, Knobloch’s [the Gestapo official who edited the reports] reports seem to have been designed primarily to appeal to Himmler and Heydrich."".
Translation: "The widely discussed and researched copies of the Ereignismeldungen and TuLBs are a horrific problem for deniers and we may note that the actual texts written by historians, when not quoted out of context, make abundantly clear the nature and uses of such reports. Anyhoo, I am just throwing this BS in, even though I say it's not "really a topic," to spread some manure around the thread."

So, apparently, that path to Reitlinger runs through Butz . . . Monstrous needs to help Maryzilla and Rollo the ganger out, 'cuz they don't like deniers blethering about "nonsense" not germane to the - and I quote from Rollo the ganger - "three question which define 'Revisionism' or whatever term one wishes to use to define those who may not agree with the current holocaust narrative." (six/gas/plan!)
Monstrous wrote:The December 16 speech is absolutely clear: "Whenever I was forced to take steps against the partisans and Jewish commissars in some village — I'll say it for the information of this group only — I made it a point to give the order to kill the women and children of these partisans and commissars. I would be a weakling and I would be committing a crime against our descendants if I allowed the hate-filled sons of the sub-humans we have liquidated in this struggle of humanity against subhumanity to grow up. Believe me, easy though it may be to talk in the lecture hall about carrying the idea behind this order to its proper, logical conclusion, it was not so easy to give the order and is not so easy to execute it."

Likely this is also what Himmler stated in the other speeches (before they were "retyped").
Mere assertion without any proof - and directly in contradiction to the evidence we have. To remind readers, probably bored enough to re-read Hargis posts at CODOH by this point, we know about the following evidence:

Time to stop Monstrous’s BS’ing.

What do we have?

(1) From the war period:

- audio recordings of 190 min. of the 4 Oct speech and 32 min. of the 6 Oct speech, captured after the war and transferred in 1947 to NARA custody along with the transcript (among 525 such speeches by Third Reich leaders; described in Wolfe, Robert (Ed.), Captured German and Related Records: A National Archives Conference, National Archive Conferences Vol. 3, 1974, plates 13-14 (pp. 172-173) (the 5 May Sonthofen audio is also in the NARA collection as are the 24 May and 21 June Sonthofen speeches) (there is no positive argument made as to a phony recording - the question has been raised whether the voice on the audio has been verified as Himmer’s, with the answer being yes, by Gottlob Berger during the IMT)

- transcripts of both speeches (4 Oct reproduced IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals (Nuernberg, 1947-49), vol. 29, p. 110-173, PS-1919; 6 Oct reproduced in Reichsfuhrer SS. Personlicher Stab. Schriftgutverwaltung. Folder 63. EAP 161-b-12/82. Tl75, roll 85, frames 2610152-200) (according to Irving the re-typing on some pages was done in 1943; we have no evidence that the re-typing was for any purpose other than making corrections of typos as was common in the “typewriter era”; both transcripts corrected by Himmler in his handwriting) (note: in this thread, Monstrous lied and claimed that Irving hadn’t dated the re-typing as occurring in 1943)

- Goebbels’ diary entry (9 Oct 1943) relating to the speech of the 6th, made a few days following the speech

- Engel’s comment on the speech of the 6th, secretly recorded whilst he was in British custody; no evidence of torture or forgery

(2) Post-war testimonies”

- IMT testimonies of von dem Bach Zalewski, Berger (Volume XIII , "green series", p. 484)

- NMT Ministries trial, testimony of Hildebrandt (mentioned by Himmler in speech given on the 4th; testimony referenced in AHF thread on post-war Posen testimonies - head of RuSHA - his testimony is cited in the IMT judgment on Berger)

- Werner Lorenz, head of VoMI, referenced n AHF thread on post-war Posen testimonies (I've not been able to find this testimony, will look when back from my travels)

- Pohl trial: Frank, Pohl - both quoted in AHF thread mentioned above

- Speer letter to Jeanty in 1971 on his presence at the Posen speech on 6 Oct ("There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed”; Monstrous apparently lied about the text of this letter)

(Sereny's book may have more post-war information - I am traveling and it is not on line)
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:10 pm

you have our sources now.

Your move.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:40 pm

Note the modus operandi of “Revisionism” . . . an unstated but most revealing change in one of the key claims Monstrous has made about Himmler’s 6 October Posen speech:

Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:54 pm - Monstrous cites unnamed other sources to claim that Himmler was referring to partisans, not Jews:
Monstrous wrote:Other sources has also stated that Himmler ordered child partisans or children of partisans to be killed so as to not grow up as avengers. A war crime for sure (but not a a genocide) but different from deliberate Allied bombing of German civilians?
Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:19 pm - Monstrous reiterates the partisan-reference claim in listing the key point of his argument
Monstrous wrote:This thread has seen a series of devastating defeats for the Believers. Some high points:. . . 4. In the second Posen speech Himmler is talking about partisans and their relatives. Not Jews in general.
Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 pm - Echoing old CODOH arguments that the secret speeches aren’t reliable, Monstrous reiterates that the excerpts that have been published
Monstrous wrote:confirm that Himmler was talking about partisans.

Monstrous adds that the speech only has
Monstrous wrote:coherence it Himmler is talking about men who were executed as partisans and then talks about what to do with their remaining relatives . . .
Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:39 pm - today - as we see, throughout the thread, up until now, Monstrous has claimed that Himmler’s text for 6 October referenced partisans instead of Jews in general (his phrase) - but now Monstrous concedes that the text is about Jews in general only he introduces a whole new claim - the text, which refers to Jews after all, has been doctored! - and only Monstrous can read Himmler's mind, Himmler would have referred to partisans had not unnamed people at unnamed time for undisclosed reasons messed with the text:
Monstrous wrote:The December 16 speech is absolutely clear: "Whenever I was forced to take steps against the partisans and Jewish commissars in some village — I'll say it for the information of this group only — I made it a point to give the order to kill the women and children of these partisans and commissars. I would be a weakling and I would be committing a crime against our descendants if I allowed the hate-filled sons of the sub-humans we have liquidated in this struggle of humanity against subhumanity to grow up. Believe me, easy though it may be to talk in the lecture hall about carrying the idea behind this order to its proper, logical conclusion, it was not so easy to give the order and is not so easy to execute it."

Likely this is also what Himmler stated in the other speeches (before they were "retyped”).
Yep, we’re still without any information from Monstrous on who did the re-typing and when. And Monstrous wants us to rely on him to read Himmler's mind.

But wait there’s more. Monstrous also made this claim, on Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:19 pm:
Monstrous wrote:5. Speer revealed to think that it was Hitler who gave the second Posen speech, thus revealing the vagaries of the human memory and the limited value of witness testimonies.
After being asked several times to support his claim, Monstrous simply fell silent about it.

Everyone can see the BS on display here.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:44 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:you have our sources now.

Your move.
If he simply repeats himself again, I should think that the thread could be put down - it would be merciful.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Everyone can see the BS on display here.
Thank you for the clear summary Statistical.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:18 am

the Speer/Hitler thing is PATHETIC. The original text is clearly visible on the link he supplied, and it quite plainly says "Himmler".

He is either being dishonest or is a troglodyte.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Balsamo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:29 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:the Speer/Hitler thing is PATHETIC. The original text is clearly visible on the link he supplied, and it quite plainly says "Himmler".

He is either being dishonest or is a troglodyte.
Never heard that thing before... :lol: I am aware of the controversy regarding Speer presence at Posen during Himmler´s speech, but that is about it. The sole idea that Hitler might have participated to this conference is absurd. Monstrous made this up or was parroting someone who did.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:37 pm

Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:the Speer/Hitler thing is PATHETIC. The original text is clearly visible on the link he supplied, and it quite plainly says "Himmler".

He is either being dishonest or is a troglodyte.
Never heard that thing before... :lol: I am aware of the controversy regarding Speer presence at Posen during Himmler´s speech, but that is about it. The sole idea that Hitler might have participated to this conference is absurd. Monstrous made this up or was parroting someone who did.
Monstrous misread an online document about Speer's 1971 letter to Jeanty confessing he was there; the text explaining the letter substituted Hitler for Himmler, an apparent typo - the facsimile of the letter says Himmler - Monstrous refused to admit this and finally to make any comment at all on his claim that Speer named Hitler.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:07 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread but we may note that even Believers have found the enormous numbers of supposed copies strange. Thus, quoting Butz in "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century": "Even Reitlinger seems puzzled by the existence of these reports and other documents, because he remarks: “It is not easy to see why the murderers left such an abundant testimony behind them, for in spite of their wide circulation list, Knobloch’s [the Gestapo official who edited the reports] reports seem to have been designed primarily to appeal to Himmler and Heydrich."".
Translation: "The widely discussed and researched copies of the Ereignismeldungen and TuLBs are a horrific problem for deniers and we may note that the actual texts written by historians, when not quoted out of context, make abundantly clear the nature and uses of such reports. Anyhoo, I am just throwing this BS in, even though I say it's not "really a topic," to spread some manure around the thread."
Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Cntury" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this. Himmler in his speeches stating that the EG killed partisan relatives were not sufficient and the critical pages in speeches were "retyped" for greater effect. Remember, the Soviets had access to all the archives in Berlin after the conquest.
Last edited by Monstrous on Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Balsamo wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:the Speer/Hitler thing is PATHETIC. The original text is clearly visible on the link he supplied, and it quite plainly says "Himmler".

He is either being dishonest or is a troglodyte.
Never heard that thing before... :lol: I am aware of the controversy regarding Speer presence at Posen during Himmler´s speech, but that is about it. The sole idea that Hitler might have participated to this conference is absurd. Monstrous made this up or was parroting someone who did.
Monstrous misread an online document about Speer's 1971 letter to Jeanty confessing he was there; the text explaining the letter substituted Hitler for Himmler, an apparent typo - the facsimile of the letter says Himmler - Monstrous refused to admit this and finally to make any comment at all on his claim that Speer named Hitler.
Hitler can easily be placed at his HQ in Rastenburg on Oct. 6, 1943. See:

Hitler and His Generals. Military Conferences 1942-1945. The First Complete Stenographic Record of the Military Situation Conferences, from Stalingrad to Berlin, trans. Roland Winter, Krista Smith, and Mary Beth Friedrich (London: Greenhill Books, 2002).

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:The December 16 speech is absolutely clear: "Whenever I was forced to take steps against the partisans and Jewish commissars in some village — I'll say it for the information of this group only — I made it a point to give the order to kill the women and children of these partisans and commissars. I would be a weakling and I would be committing a crime against our descendants if I allowed the hate-filled sons of the sub-humans we have liquidated in this struggle of humanity against subhumanity to grow up. Believe me, easy though it may be to talk in the lecture hall about carrying the idea behind this order to its proper, logical conclusion, it was not so easy to give the order and is not so easy to execute it."

Likely this is also what Himmler stated in the other speeches (before they were "retyped").
Mere assertion without any proof - and directly in contradiction to the evidence we have. To remind readers, probably bored enough to re-read Hargis posts at CODOH by this point, we know about the following evidence:

Time to stop Monstrous’s BS’ing.

What do we have?

(1) From the war period:

- audio recordings of 190 min. of the 4 Oct speech and 32 min. of the 6 Oct speech, captured after the war and transferred in 1947 to NARA custody along with the transcript (among 525 such speeches by Third Reich leaders; described in Wolfe, Robert (Ed.), Captured German and Related Records: A National Archives Conference, National Archive Conferences Vol. 3, 1974, plates 13-14 (pp. 172-173) (the 5 May Sonthofen audio is also in the NARA collection as are the 24 May and 21 June Sonthofen speeches) (there is no positive argument made as to a phony recording - the question has been raised whether the voice on the audio has been verified as Himmer’s, with the answer being yes, by Gottlob Berger during the IMT)

- transcripts of both speeches (4 Oct reproduced IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals (Nuernberg, 1947-49), vol. 29, p. 110-173, PS-1919; 6 Oct reproduced in Reichsfuhrer SS. Personlicher Stab. Schriftgutverwaltung. Folder 63. EAP 161-b-12/82. Tl75, roll 85, frames 2610152-200) (according to Irving the re-typing on some pages was done in 1943; we have no evidence that the re-typing was for any purpose other than making corrections of typos as was common in the “typewriter era”; both transcripts corrected by Himmler in his handwriting) (note: in this thread, Monstrous lied and claimed that Irving hadn’t dated the re-typing as occurring in 1943)

- Goebbels’ diary entry (9 Oct 1943) relating to the speech of the 6th, made a few days following the speech

- Engel’s comment on the speech of the 6th, secretly recorded whilst he was in British custody; no evidence of torture or forgery

(2) Post-war testimonies”

- IMT testimonies of von dem Bach Zalewski, Berger (Volume XIII , "green series", p. 484)

- NMT Ministries trial, testimony of Hildebrandt (mentioned by Himmler in speech given on the 4th; testimony referenced in AHF thread on post-war Posen testimonies - head of RuSHA - his testimony is cited in the IMT judgment on Berger)

- Werner Lorenz, head of VoMI, referenced n AHF thread on post-war Posen testimonies (I've not been able to find this testimony, will look when back from my travels)

- Pohl trial: Frank, Pohl - both quoted in AHF thread mentioned above

- Speer letter to Jeanty in 1971 on his presence at the Posen speech on 6 Oct ("There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6 1943 that all Jews would be killed”; Monstrous apparently lied about the text of this letter)

(Sereny's book may have more post-war information - I am traveling and it is not on line)
Regarding audio recordings they all have missing parts except the October 4 speech which have been discussed elsewhere and has been demonstrated to never have been authenticated. Berger first denied the voice being Himmler and then stated that it "might" have been Himmler. Audio recordings are certainly not impossible to fake and existing ones (tapes) may be easily edited.

Regarding the speech transcripts Irving has stated that the October 4, 1943, the October 6, 1943, the May 5, 1944, and the May 24, 1944 speeches all have the critical parts retyped. There are also innumerable inconsistencies and weird things about the transcripts. The party program problem, the solution being achieved by the end of 1943, all Jews being killed at the time of the speech problem., the use of "code words" despite allegedly being explicit speeches problem, Himmler speaking about not losing respect for human life problem, and so, and so on, and so on... As discussed elsewhere in this thread.

Regarding Goebbel's diary entry it just states that the Jews are to be rooted out - auszurotten.

Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.

Regarding von dem Bach Zalewsk he was a bought witness who lied in exchange for freedom and who would have testified that Hitler was an ET or that the flat earth theory is correct if he had been told to do so.

Regarding Hildebrand, your "sourcing" is atrocious but may refer to this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=200863 As noted there it is unclear if he had attended the Posen speech.

Hans Frank, Oswald Pohl: Sources are lacking and the links are dead in this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=200863 As such there is no verifiable source. According to the alleged text Frank stated that "As a man of thinking faculties I had to deduce from Himmler's speech what he wanted to say." - Thus, Himmler did not state clearly the existence of an extermination during the speech but Frank now have concluded that Himmler used "code language"... Regarding Pohl, the IMT has already established the Holocaust as a judicial fact so denying it was pointless. Pohl did what most others did, expressed support for the official Holocaust version while denying personal knowledge.

Regarding Speer, an alleged resurfaced memory 25 years later of being present is of little value. Also, Speer did not state what his version of speech was (or even that he remembered it).

See also the many arguments in Metapedia on the speeches:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Balsamo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:44 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Goebbel's diary entry it just states that the Jews are to be rooted out - auszurotten.
Do you speak and/or read German, my friend?
Or do you just play the ausrotten gambit?
Ausrotten may mean rooted out - that is destroy, exterminate in an abstract form when the subject is a concept like Jewry, but when it comes to person, like Jews or conspirators, it means to kill them. And we are not talking about plants here.
Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.


Do you know what was going on at Posen on that day?
It was not only Himmler's speech, but many speakers came to present the current situation. The conference started in the morning, Speer talked about the Armament production, and later, before Himmler, Doenitz spoke as well about the kriegsmarine. So Engels had every reason to be there.
Regarding Speer, an alleged resurfaced memory 25 years later of being present is of little value. Also, Speer did not state what his version of speech was (or even that he remembered it).
Speer was there of course, at least for his speech. Now he did not remember having heard Himmler speech which was the last one, and it is possible for some as some witnesses saw him leaving the conference to meet Hitler at Rastenburg. This is still a controversy about that, but it is possible. What it is much less possible is that he did not get any information on what Himmler said that night.

the 4th of October speech was intended to fellow SS who knew what has been going on, the 6th was meant at the officials and elite of the NSDAP, some of them - at least it is my opinion - might not have known the full extent of the Final Solution. It is by far the most important.
The fact that Himmler was talking to Nazi prominents allowed him to state that the Final Solution was coming to an end, regarding the Jews who were of their direct concern, the Jews from the Greater Reich. He could say that this part of the solution was about to end, and the mass killing at Majdanek (operation Erntefest) confirms this. Bloxham would say that concerning the imperial cone - sorry StatMec - the mission was indeed almost accomplished by the end of 1943. And I hold the point of view that Himmler's revelation greatly facilitate the operation in Hungary a couple of month later, as almost no more lies and deceptions were involved on the German side.
Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
Right;
Well there is a post on this forum as well as on codoh about a video of Vincent Reynouard (you might know him) who is based on the final reports of EG action in the east, that is the compilation of all the formers reports. this report was written in Berlin and published at 65 copies. Even Revisionists don't call them fake or edited. Those reports came out in 1942, long before the end of 1943. And as I said, 65 copies were distributed.
In those, you find murder of women, children, elderly, men, all in some way justified. That was no secret! And, you just cannot fabricate or edit a 3300 pages report which was published at 65 copies. It is just too risky if you understand the problem. of course, technically you can, but you'll face the risk of being debunked if any other those 65 copies resurfaces. You just don't do that.
Now those reports sums up the killing at 465.000 or so people, 90% of them being Jews. That is in the context of the war against Partisan, Nick Terry correctly pointed out that some other actions were not taken into consideration in those final reports. The two fellow revisionists are of course trying to downgrade that number, and to extent the time period to one year, when it is only 6 months.
What is your next step, to pretend that 90% of the Partisans were Jews?

Sorry, but I dedicate my last available times to my two last posts in another thread.
But your arguments are great to point out the ridiculous aspects of Revisionism, thank you for that.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:01 pm

Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Goebbel's diary entry it just states that the Jews are to be rooted out - auszurotten.
Do you speak and/or read German, my friend?
Or do you just play the ausrotten gambit?
Ausrotten may mean rooted out - that is destroy, exterminate in an abstract form when the subject is a concept like Jewry, but when it comes to person, like Jews or conspirators, it means to kill them. And we are not talking about plants here.
Again, how Germans today use the word is relatively uninteresting. What is relevant how the word as used before 1945 and in particular by the NSDAP leaders. Already discussed this elsewhere in this thread so not going to repeat.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:03 pm

Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.


Do you know what was going on at Posen on that day?
It was not only Himmler's speech, but many speakers came to present the current situation. The conference started in the morning, Speer talked about the Armament production, and later, before Himmler, Doenitz spoke as well about the kriegsmarine. So Engels had every reason to be there.
It was a speech to NSDAP leaders (Gautleiters, and so on). Engel was not a speaker.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:18 pm

Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
Right;
Well there is a post on this forum as well as on codoh about a video of Vincent Reynouard (you might know him) who is based on the final reports of EG action in the east, that is the compilation of all the formers reports. this report was written in Berlin and published at 65 copies. Even Revisionists don't call them fake or edited. Those reports came out in 1942, long before the end of 1943. And as I said, 65 copies were distributed.
In those, you find murder of women, children, elderly, men, all in some way justified. That was no secret! And, you just cannot fabricate or edit a 3300 pages report which was published at 65 copies. It is just too risky if you understand the problem. of course, technically you can, but you'll face the risk of being debunked if any other those 65 copies resurfaces. You just don't do that.
Now those reports sums up the killing at 465.000 or so people, 90% of them being Jews. That is in the context of the war against Partisan, Nick Terry correctly pointed out that some other actions were not taken into consideration in those final reports. The two fellow revisionists are of course trying to downgrade that number, and to extent the time period to one year, when it is only 6 months.
What is your next step, to pretend that 90% of the Partisans were Jews?

Sorry, but I dedicate my last available times to my two last posts in another thread.
But your arguments are great to point out the ridiculous aspects of Revisionism, thank you for that.
Revisionists may have different views. Reynouard may not think the reports are fabricated. Butz in his book did not. The relevant chapter can be read here online (Einsatzgruppen arguments are at the end):
http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/10.html

Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.

The Believers cite these document but have no arguments regarding the absurdities involved in, for example, quickly digging up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burning them and leaving no traces. Or air photos showing no burning or graves at Babi Yar.
http://codoh.com/library/document/1493/

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:12 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.


Do you know what was going on at Posen on that day?
It was not only Himmler's speech, but many speakers came to present the current situation. The conference started in the morning, Speer talked about the Armament production, and later, before Himmler, Doenitz spoke as well about the kriegsmarine. So Engels had every reason to be there.
It was a speech to NSDAP leaders (Gautleiters, and so on). Engel was not a speaker.
Well, yes and no. On the one hand, he was posted as " In April 1943, Engel took over under promotion to rear admiral in command as a 2nd Admiral of the North Sea.", a fact which would seem to indicate he had no business attending Posen at all. On the other hand, since Donitz did give a speech there, perhaps the Konteradmiral was there to aid Donitz in the preparation of his speech. At any rate, no one has suggested that Engel was a speaker there.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Engel

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:29 pm

Monstrous wrote:...no arguments regarding the absurdities involved in, for example, quickly digging up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burning them and leaving no traces...
You're quite right. I'm speechless.

Balsamo wrote:But your arguments are great to point out the ridiculous aspects of Revisionism...
There you go. ^That. Thanks, Balsamo.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:53 pm

Monstrous wrote:Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches.
Or
Monstrous wrote:The alleged 100 copies of EG reports are not really a topic for this thread . . .
Apparently we get to pick.
Monstrous wrote:When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Cntury" regarding arguments for this)
No, you make the argument. I will revive a thread for you for just this purpose. Do you know Little Grey Rabbit - he started the AHF thread on postwar Posen testimonies? This same claim about the Ereignismeldungen went rather poorly for him when he tried it. Want to join him in his ignominy on this? Post your explanation here. You will need to clarify whether the Soviets supposedly fabricated or edited the reports - or both.

But thank you for speaking up. This should be fun.
Monstrous wrote:they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
But tossing out 5/e THOTTC isn't an argument. So you're starting behind the 8-ball. You don't yet have the Ereignismeldungen prepared by anyone other than RSHA IV A 1, compiling summary reports from ground-level field reports. You can't use an unproven assertion to prove an unrelated claim, for crissakes.
Monstrous wrote:Himmler in his speeches stating that the EG killed partisan relatives were not sufficient and the critical pages in speeches were "retyped" for greater effect. Remember, the Soviets had access to all the archives in Berlin after the conquest.
Explain what happened, dipshit, instead of piling "might have" on top of "could have" on top of "why not?"
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:55 pm

Xcalibur wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.


Do you know what was going on at Posen on that day?
It was not only Himmler's speech, but many speakers came to present the current situation. The conference started in the morning, Speer talked about the Armament production, and later, before Himmler, Doenitz spoke as well about the kriegsmarine. So Engels had every reason to be there.
It was a speech to NSDAP leaders (Gautleiters, and so on). Engel was not a speaker.
Well, yes and no. On the one hand, he was posted as " In April 1943, Engel took over under promotion to rear admiral in command as a 2nd Admiral of the North Sea.", a fact which would seem to indicate he had no business attending Posen at all. On the other hand, since Donitz did give a speech there, perhaps the Konteradmiral was there to aid Donitz in the preparation of his speech. At any rate, no one has suggested that Engel was a speaker there.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Engel
Correct, and Engel is recorded having said he was among those there. Against this, Monstrous has, er, well, nothing.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:58 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
Right;
Well there is a post on this forum as well as on codoh about a video of Vincent Reynouard (you might know him) who is based on the final reports of EG action in the east, that is the compilation of all the formers reports. this report was written in Berlin and published at 65 copies. Even Revisionists don't call them fake or edited. Those reports came out in 1942, long before the end of 1943. And as I said, 65 copies were distributed.
In those, you find murder of women, children, elderly, men, all in some way justified. That was no secret! And, you just cannot fabricate or edit a 3300 pages report which was published at 65 copies. It is just too risky if you understand the problem. of course, technically you can, but you'll face the risk of being debunked if any other those 65 copies resurfaces. You just don't do that.
Now those reports sums up the killing at 465.000 or so people, 90% of them being Jews. That is in the context of the war against Partisan, Nick Terry correctly pointed out that some other actions were not taken into consideration in those final reports. The two fellow revisionists are of course trying to downgrade that number, and to extent the time period to one year, when it is only 6 months.
What is your next step, to pretend that 90% of the Partisans were Jews?

Sorry, but I dedicate my last available times to my two last posts in another thread.
But your arguments are great to point out the ridiculous aspects of Revisionism, thank you for that.
Revisionists may have different views. Reynouard may not think the reports are fabricated. Butz in his book did not. The relevant chapter can be read here online (Einsatzgruppen arguments are at the end):
http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/10.html

Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.

The Believers cite these document but have no arguments regarding the absurdities involved in, for example, quickly digging up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burning them and leaving no traces. Or air photos showing no burning or graves at Babi Yar.
http://codoh.com/library/document/1493/
Tsk, tsk, post your proofs - not suppositions - in the EG thread.

By the way, "Believers" cite these document but have no arguments" doesn't cut it. You need to cite whom you have in mind, because 1) we don't know what "Believers" are and 2) people on this forum have read historians and other scholars on this topic. So general statements like yours mean nothing.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:06 pm

Good post, Balsamo, and I won't repeat ground. But this:
Balsamo wrote:
Regarding Speer, an alleged resurfaced memory 25 years later of being present is of little value. Also, Speer did not state what his version of speech was (or even that he remembered it).
Speer was there of course, at least for his speech. Now he did not remember having heard Himmler speech which was the last one, and it is possible for some as some witnesses saw him leaving the conference to meet Hitler at Rastenburg. This is still a controversy about that, but it is possible. What it is much less possible is that he did not get any information on what Himmler said that night.
I don't believe there is any controversy about this except among deniers: 1) Sereny's take is brutal, 2) the Jeanty letter is brutal.

Note to readers: The dishonest little {!#%@}, Monstrous, who claimed repeatedly that the Jeanty letter had Speer stating that Hitler gave the speech, now changes his story, without ever responding to demands for an explanation of his claim. His story is now, well, Speer did mention the speech but didn't say whether it was on the 4th or on the 6th, the latter date being the time when Himmler mentioned him by name and for which he tried to arrange excuses about his having left early. This is covered at some length in Gitta Sereny's book, which includes information on Speer’s invitation to the meeting on the 6th IIRC - and in a brief version on the Wikipedia page for the Posen speeches. Monstrous has chosen to lie about this rather than deal with it.
Balsamo wrote:regarding the Jews who were of their direct concern, the Jews from the Greater Reich. He could say that this part of the solution was about to end, and the mass killing at Majdanek (operation Erntefest) confirms this. Bloxham would say that concerning the imperial cone - sorry StatMec - the mission was indeed almost accomplished by the end of 1943.
Agree to disagree, for one thing he mentioned the occupied countries along with making allusions to the Reich.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:35 pm

A few quick comments to answer a few of the idiocies in this post. I'm not, as I said I wouldn't going back through Monstrous's repetitions of arguments we've replied to and for which he keeps repeating the same old thing. Readers can simply scan through the thread if they're interested.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding Hildebrand, your "sourcing" is atrocious but may refer to this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=200863 As noted there it is unclear if he had attended the Posen speech.
I recalled having linked earlier in this thread to AHF but, now that I look, it was a different AHF topic. Anyway, not so atrocious that you couldn't find the thread. I'm traveling, as I've said, and haven't the time to track down everything - and am missing bookmarks on the laptop I have. So, if some of the sourcing is not up to par, I will deal with it when I return.
Monstrous wrote:Hans Frank, Oswald Pohl: Sources are lacking and the links are dead in this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=200863 As such there is no verifiable source.
Jesus, are you really so feeble - and so feeble-minded? A dead link means that there's no verifiable source? Is this your first foray using the Internets?

Good grief.
Frank - Pohl Trial, NMT Green Series, Vol V, p 762
Pohl - Pohl Trial, NMT Green Series, Vol V, p 675, see also p 666 where Pohl also mentions the speech and says it was about the extermination of the Jews and that he discussed it with others
Monstrous wrote:According to the alleged text
Check {!#%@} Green Series, {!#%@} Vol V.
Monstrous wrote:Frank stated that "As a man of thinking faculties I had to deduce from Himmler's speech what he wanted to say." - Thus, Himmler did not state clearly the existence of an extermination during the speech but Frank now have concluded that Himmler used "code language"... Regarding Pohl, the IMT has already established the Holocaust as a judicial fact so denying it was pointless. Pohl did what most others did, expressed support for the official Holocaust version while denying personal knowledge.
"Allegedly." Give it up. This is going really badly for you. We are enjoying the part of your routine where you change your claims, that part that goes something like this: they weren't there, they didn't say it, the source doesn't exist, oh, {!#%@}, well, they didn't mean it.

Sigh. You did read that Frank answered yes, to the question whether he heard the speech in which Himmler announced the Reich/SS policy of extermination of the Jews, didn't you? That he said he had no doubt that "the German Reich had proclaimed an extermination policy against the whole of Jewry . . ."? Now, he didn't recall, but surmised, more, it seems from his testimony. So what? He was asked if he was there, he said yes and he'd heard Himmler speak of the extermination of the Jews, and he also said Pohl was there (p 763).
Monstrous wrote:Regarding Speer, an alleged resurfaced memory 25 years later of being present is of little value. Also, Speer did not state what his version of speech was (or even that he remembered it).
You're now calling attention to your dishonesty. Fine by me.
Monstrous wrote:See also the many arguments in Metapedia on the speeches:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
What's the matter? Slimy, mendacious denier can't make your own arguments?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Balsamo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:38 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Regarding Engel gossiping it is obviously not reliable evidence and he had no reason for being present at Posen.


Do you know what was going on at Posen on that day?
It was not only Himmler's speech, but many speakers came to present the current situation. The conference started in the morning, Speer talked about the Armament production, and later, before Himmler, Doenitz spoke as well about the kriegsmarine. So Engels had every reason to be there.
It was a speech to NSDAP leaders (Gautleiters, and so on). Engel was not a speaker.
No it was much more than that: Doenitz was on of the speaker, along with Milch, the chief of the SA, Speer and many of his collaborator, and many more ( I don't have the list on hand). The meeting started in the morning and ended around 8 pm with Himmler's speech.
Do you know how many people did a speech on that day?

I asked you if you spoke German. This is yes or no: if the answer is no, how would you determine how a German word was supposed to be understood in 1943? Denier's arrogance and stupidity have no limit, really. I was born in Germany, and as you and everyone can see, English is not my native language, but I would never try to explain what the word exterminate meant in English 80 years ago to any native English speaker. If the answer is YES, then please go ahead and explain, not specially by quoting Irving.
Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.
Because before you do, you have to be sure that all the copies have been found and under control. Otherwise, you'd expose yourself to be caught red handed if one of the existing copies appear. And I doubt that the Soviets would have been stupid enough to copy a forgery of 3300 pages 65 times.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:42 am

"It was dated October 6... it wasn't dated at all."

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:46 am

So-called Einsatzgruppen reports continued here, in the "Deniers say the dumbest things: the open-air shootings" thread. My comment on Balsamo's last post on this is here.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:32 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Balsamo wrote:Monstrous wrote:
Actually, the EG reports may have relevance to the Posen speeches. When the Soviets fabricated/edited the EG reports to include killings of Jews (Se "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" regarding arguments for this) they would also have to fabricated/edited some other documents to support this.
Right;
Well there is a post on this forum as well as on codoh about a video of Vincent Reynouard (you might know him) who is based on the final reports of EG action in the east, that is the compilation of all the formers reports. this report was written in Berlin and published at 65 copies. Even Revisionists don't call them fake or edited. Those reports came out in 1942, long before the end of 1943. And as I said, 65 copies were distributed.
In those, you find murder of women, children, elderly, men, all in some way justified. That was no secret! And, you just cannot fabricate or edit a 3300 pages report which was published at 65 copies. It is just too risky if you understand the problem. of course, technically you can, but you'll face the risk of being debunked if any other those 65 copies resurfaces. You just don't do that.
Now those reports sums up the killing at 465.000 or so people, 90% of them being Jews. That is in the context of the war against Partisan, Nick Terry correctly pointed out that some other actions were not taken into consideration in those final reports. The two fellow revisionists are of course trying to downgrade that number, and to extent the time period to one year, when it is only 6 months.
What is your next step, to pretend that 90% of the Partisans were Jews?

Sorry, but I dedicate my last available times to my two last posts in another thread.
But your arguments are great to point out the ridiculous aspects of Revisionism, thank you for that.
Revisionists may have different views. Reynouard may not think the reports are fabricated. Butz in his book did not. The relevant chapter can be read here online (Einsatzgruppen arguments are at the end):
http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/10.html

Why cannot you forge a report and copy it a hundred times using a mimeograph? If the Germans could copy documents, then the Soviets could also.

The Believers cite these document but have no arguments regarding the absurdities involved in, for example, quickly digging up hundreds of thousands of corpses and burning them and leaving no traces. Or air photos showing no burning or graves at Babi Yar.
http://codoh.com/library/document/1493/
And therein lies the problem. If something can't happen then it didn't happen. If a German document refers to impossible events, it doesn't matter if it's an authentic German document or a crude Soviet forgery.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:15 pm

Posen? Anyway, nice to see Maryzilla is back on board, unable to resist - so it's six/gas/plan/plus?

Posen, folks, this thread is on Himmler's Posen speeches; the open-air shootings in the occupied East and the EG reports, with proofs concerning their supposedly having been forged, are to be gone through here.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:18 pm

Basically Ausrottung, as I understand it means to anhilate or wipe out. When applied to a wider concept, like the German Nation of Germanhood, it means the destruction of those things as concepts. When applied to groups of people it has always meant killing. When I say I am going to eliminate the practice of scalping tickets I am obviously not talking about killing. When I am announcing that I am wiping out and decimating those who scalp tickets, I am obviously doing far more than resettlement.

Re VDBZ: He was far from a bought witness. In fact he spent the rest of his life in prison and would make numerous confessions to West German judicial officials.

Frank: You are cherry picking here son. Frank explicitly stated that Himmler was referring to extermination. Full stop.

Pohl: He could easily have denied being present like Speer. Yet he chose not to. Damming.

Hildebrandt explicitly stated that he had heard the speech.

If you continue to make the claim about Engel gossiping I will put you on ignore. That has been refuted thoroughly and decisively.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:23 pm

MR. ROBINS : Witness, after you heard Himmler’s speech in Poznan, you had no doubt that the policy of the Reich and the policy of the SS were committed to the extermination of the Jews, did you?

DEFENDANT FRANK: Yes, quite.

JUDGE PHILLIPS: Was that in '42 or '43 ?

MR. ROBBINS: October '43, your Honor. You say you did not have any doubt?

DEFENDANT FRANK: It was in October 1943 when I heard Himmler's speech at Poznan and I heard it as chief of the administration of the police.

Q. And at that time it became clear to you that the policy of the Reich was the extermination of the Jews? I did not quite get your answer?

A. No doubt could be possible anymore after that. As a man of thinking faculties I had to deduce from Himmler's speech what he wanted to say.
He is not being ambiguous at all here.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:48 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:Pohl: He could easily have denied being present like Speer. Yet he chose not to. Damming.
Of course, Frank had just placed him there, so he was kind of in a pickle.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:53 pm

He could have easily pointed at Frank and shouted "LIAR" to the top of his lungs. If Frank was Bing re the speech it wo0uld be his natural reaction. If Berger did his thing Pohl could have easily done it as well.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:29 pm

Oh he was there, I'm just saying he was kind of {!#%@} by that point in being there. He had a narrative to explain it away.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:31 pm

If the speech did not contain the remarks, the Pohl could have just said it. If Berger could try to do it then so could Pohl.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:56 pm

So we have Frank, who testified in the Ministries trial that he was present at the Posen speech and heard Himmler talk about the Reich's policy of exterminating the Jews - and that Pohl was also present. Then we have Pohl testifying in the same trial that he was present, that he heard Himmler's remarks to the effect that it was easy to talk about doing away with the Jews but the Jews were actually being exterminated, and that he also heard Himmler's remarks at Posen on the seizure of Jewish valuables for the benefit of the Reich.

What was Monstrous's issue with these two testimonies - that one of the citations to them wasn't to his liking, that the transcript is only "alleged" to contain these men's remarks, that Frank made deductions from Himmler's claims about exterminating the Jews, and that it was pointless for Pohl to defend himself even though Pohl, er, defended himself? LOL
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:. . . the 1943 December 16 speech where it is clear that the children and women Himmler is speaking about are the relatives of partisans.
No, it isn't clear. You continue to assert and re-assert whatever you please without paying attention to the words the man used.
Whoops, read this post too fast, yes, that is clear in the December speech - but it has no connection to the 6 October speech. In the one case, December, from the excerpt I've seen, Himmler is addressing the anti-partisan warfare waged by the Germans; in the October case, on the other hand, he is speaking about the Jewish question. Two different topics, similar criminal conduct.
Himmler used very similar phrases and language in the October Posen speeches and the December speech except for it being clear in the December speech that he has speaking about partisans and their relatives and not Jews generally. As I said, the October speeches are likely edited and originally stated the same as the December speech which was missed by the editors.