Posen Speech

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:22 pm

Monstrous wrote:This thread has seen a series of devastating defeats for the Believers. Some high points:
1. The critical page of the text of speech has been retyped, essentially making it useless as evidence.
Not really. This can be put down to wartime reshuffling. The audio recording is inescapable.
2. The audio recording has always been useless as evidence since there is no evidence at all for it being authentic.
There is no evidence at all for it's inauthenticity. It is clearly Himmler's voice. Erich Von Dem Bach Zelewski listined to the audio and confiormed that it was indeed Himmler. Goebbles remarked about the speech in his diary. Engel remarked about the speech in private conversation. Hilderbrandt (a gauliteir) made an offhand reference to the speech in his testimony referring to it as "shocking". One can easily deduce the speech from the reactions of contemporaries.
There exists a letter between Sipo Police chiefs in Poland IIRC where one states to the other that he is sending a copy of Himmlers speech and remarks that he wants it to be burned after reading. Read between the lines.
3. "Ausrottung" did not necessarily or even primarily mean "extermination" in the 1930s-1940s.
Yes it does. There exists not a single use of the term by Hitler or Himmler where it did not clearly mean killing.
4. In the second Posen speech Himmler is talking about partisans and their relatives. Not Jews in general.
You seem to be accepting the authenticity of this speech.
The difficult decision has been made to make this people disappear from the earth
5. Speer revealed to think that it was Hitler who gave the second Posen speech, thus revealing the vagaries of the human memory and the limited value of witness testimonies.
That was a typo in the article. It is the only reference to Hitler giving the speech in the whole article. The quotation refers to Himmler as does the original letter.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:29 pm

Monstrous wrote:This thread has seen a series of devastating defeats for the Believers. Some high points:
1. The critical page of the text of speech has been retyped, essentially making it useless as evidence.
In the days of typewriters, re-typing was common. There were contemporary and postwar recollections of the speeches. There was a 2nd speech and there was a similar speech at Sonthofen without this alleged issue.

You've not offered one positive piece of evidence about a forgery - and the source you rely on says that the re-typing was done during the war (a fact you lied about) and that it does not indicate a forgery (a claim you now make)!
Monstrous wrote:2. The audio recording has always been useless as evidence since there is no evidence at all for it being authentic.
Except that Gottlob Berger concluded, clearly not wanting to as doing so was damaging to his defense, that the voice was Himmler's.
Monstrous wrote:3. "Ausrottung" did not necessarily or even primarily mean "extermination" in the 1930s-1940s.
This "argument" has been dealt with repeatedly - including here.
Monstrous wrote:4. In the second Posen speech Himmler is talking about partisans and their relatives. Not Jews in general.
No, you are simply making things up. Himmler is talking about future generations after the war - and Engel also recalled this. Himmler's words on the 6th were as follows:
I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. [...] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.
Because you see fit to lie, readers should note that Himmler specifically mentions the future avengers of his generation's sons and grandsons - not wartime partisans; states that "this people disappear from the earth" - and, whilst Himmler would call Jews a "people," no one would call partisan bands a "people"; states the killing of the children as part of the solution of "the Jewish question"; and promises that, with the Jewish children gone and the killing of "this people" completed, "only remainders of odd Jews" in hiding will be left. Not a single reference to partisans.

Which reminds me that you never explained your bizarre assertions about the Hungarian Jews.

Monstrous fail!
Monstrous wrote:5. Speer revealed to think that it was Hitler who gave the second Posen speech, thus revealing the vagaries of the human memory and the limited value of witness testimonies.
Human memory doth have vagaries - you've still not shown us in the text of the letter where Speer says Hitler. You were asked to quote the specific part of the letter you're referring to.

The problems here are rather all yours - and rather crushing. In fact, your arguments are so poor, I keep expecting a better chimp - no, not Mary - to show up to rescue you.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:30 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I won't repeat myself on the use of "Programm," but the Party Program actually says that non-citizen were to live in Germany as guests and would be subject to laws as foreigners. The party program doesn't say non-citizens would be "evacuated." Face it, Himmler wasn't giving a technical recounting of planks of the party platform and how they'd been fulfilled. This notion you've got stuck on is really silly.
Actually it states that "Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens." No right to be in Germany and guests are usually expected to leave eventually, Jews being expelled is compatible with the Program unlike a genocide.
You are stretching this so thin that it's snapping. The Program had nothing in it that related to evacuation or expulsion. It in fact contained the opposite.
If the party program does not contain anything supporting expulsion or genocide, then we must conclude that a) Himmler did not know the most basic NS text, or b) the speech text is a forgery by a particularly inept forger (supported by numerous other absurdities).
That is a fallacy. Anyone conducting a forgery would have been part of the intelligence apparatus and would have had deep knowledge of Nazi affairs.
Indeed, also Monstrous states a false dichotomy: the other and more likely alternative is that Himmler was speaking loosely about the expectations of the national comrades.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Monstrous fail!
:heh:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:15 pm

Like I said, the mention of the typo is a credibility killer. The letter clearly says it was Himmler.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I won't repeat myself on the use of "Programm," but the Party Program actually says that non-citizen were to live in Germany as guests and would be subject to laws as foreigners. The party program doesn't say non-citizens would be "evacuated." Face it, Himmler wasn't giving a technical recounting of planks of the party platform and how they'd been fulfilled. This notion you've got stuck on is really silly.
Actually it states that "Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens." No right to be in Germany and guests are usually expected to leave eventually, Jews being expelled is compatible with the Program unlike a genocide.
You are stretching this so thin that it's snapping. The Program had nothing in it that related to evacuation or expulsion. It in fact contained the opposite.
If the party program does not contain anything supporting expulsion or genocide, then we must conclude that a) Himmler did not know the most basic NS text, or b) the speech text is a forgery by a particularly inept forger (supported by numerous other absurdities).
That is a fallacy. Anyone conducting a forgery would have been part of the intelligence apparatus and would have had deep knowledge of Nazi affairs.
Is that why they produced forged documents containing FBI stamps?
http://www.cwporter.com/gl3.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:28 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I won't repeat myself on the use of "Programm," but the Party Program actually says that non-citizen were to live in Germany as guests and would be subject to laws as foreigners. The party program doesn't say non-citizens would be "evacuated." Face it, Himmler wasn't giving a technical recounting of planks of the party platform and how they'd been fulfilled. This notion you've got stuck on is really silly.
Actually it states that "Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens." No right to be in Germany and guests are usually expected to leave eventually, Jews being expelled is compatible with the Program unlike a genocide.
You are stretching this so thin that it's snapping. The Program had nothing in it that related to evacuation or expulsion. It in fact contained the opposite.
If the party program does not contain anything supporting expulsion or genocide, then we must conclude that a) Himmler did not know the most basic NS text, or b) the speech text is a forgery by a particularly inept forger (supported by numerous other absurdities).
That is a fallacy. Anyone conducting a forgery would have been part of the intelligence apparatus and would have had deep knowledge of Nazi affairs.
Indeed, also Monstrous states a false dichotomy: the other and more likely alternative is that Himmler was speaking loosely about the expectations of the national comrades.
No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:31 pm

Monstrous wrote:No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"
And he's talking to whom?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:39 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"
And he's talking to whom?
?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:41 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I won't repeat myself on the use of "Programm," but the Party Program actually says that non-citizen were to live in Germany as guests and would be subject to laws as foreigners. The party program doesn't say non-citizens would be "evacuated." Face it, Himmler wasn't giving a technical recounting of planks of the party platform and how they'd been fulfilled. This notion you've got stuck on is really silly.
Actually it states that "Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens." No right to be in Germany and guests are usually expected to leave eventually, Jews being expelled is compatible with the Program unlike a genocide.
You are stretching this so thin that it's snapping. The Program had nothing in it that related to evacuation or expulsion. It in fact contained the opposite.
If the party program does not contain anything supporting expulsion or genocide, then we must conclude that a) Himmler did not know the most basic NS text, or b) the speech text is a forgery by a particularly inept forger (supported by numerous other absurdities).
That is a fallacy. Anyone conducting a forgery would have been part of the intelligence apparatus and would have had deep knowledge of Nazi affairs.
Is that why they produced forged documents containing FBI stamps?
http://www.cwporter.com/gl3.htm
Those were translations. Said translations can be regarded as authentic.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:45 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: BS. It meant one thing then as well. You will find many uses of the word from the 1940's that were clearly in referece to extermination. Hitler ordering that the American divisions in the Ardennes be "ausrottung" is not a reference to their evacuation or resettlement. :lol:
Failure of logical thinking. Even if ausrottung could mean killing, then this does not mean that it always meant killing. Irving/Potter has demonstrated this conclusively.
I have yet to see a use of this word from any time period that does not refer to killing, wiping out, or destruction.
" In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

"Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290)."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:46 pm

EDIT: Document L3 was a garbled merger of two Hitler speeches. The essence of the content however, remains intact.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:47 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"
And he's talking to whom?
?
Answer the question. To whom was Himmler speaking? Or is the question too hard for you?

Oh, and by the way . . .
Over the last 15 months, we’ve travelled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.
Barack Obama never said this, there's only one explanation, some forger was engaged in shenanigans, chicanery, and hijinx.

Get serious.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:51 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: BS. It meant one thing then as well. You will find many uses of the word from the 1940's that were clearly in referece to extermination. Hitler ordering that the American divisions in the Ardennes be "ausrottung" is not a reference to their evacuation or resettlement. :lol:
Failure of logical thinking. Even if ausrottung could mean killing, then this does not mean that it always meant killing. Irving/Potter has demonstrated this conclusively.
I have yet to see a use of this word from any time period that does not refer to killing, wiping out, or destruction.
" In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

"Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290)."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm
Thank you for proving my point.

The first quote is obviously an apocalyptic reference to the destruction of the German state. Hitler was stating that the Soviets would have anhilated the German people. There are several Goebbles speeches on this theme that make clear that it was the anhilation of the German state that they feard.

The second one is even more clear: The bad conditions are being wiped out, gotten rid of, done away with. None will remain anymore.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Oh, and by the way . . .
Over the last 15 months, we’ve travelled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.
Barack Obama never said this, there's only one explanation, some forger was engaged in shenanigans, chicanery, and hijinx.

Get serious.
phpBB [video]


Clearly this is a Russian impersonator with no knowledge of the English language!

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:53 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"
And he's talking to whom?
?
Answer the question. To whom was Himmler speaking? Or is the question too hard for you?
Am audience? A tape machine?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:55 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: BS. It meant one thing then as well. You will find many uses of the word from the 1940's that were clearly in referece to extermination. Hitler ordering that the American divisions in the Ardennes be "ausrottung" is not a reference to their evacuation or resettlement. :lol:
Failure of logical thinking. Even if ausrottung could mean killing, then this does not mean that it always meant killing. Irving/Potter has demonstrated this conclusively.
I have yet to see a use of this word from any time period that does not refer to killing, wiping out, or destruction.
" In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

"Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290)."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm
Thank you for proving my point.

The first quote is obviously an apocalyptic reference to the destruction of the German state. Hitler was stating that the Soviets would have anhilated the German people. There are several Goebbles speeches on this theme that make clear that it was the anhilation of the German state that they feard.

The second one is even more clear: The bad conditions are being wiped out, gotten rid of, done away with. None will remain anymore.
So ausrotten does not have to mean killing...

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:59 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: BS. It meant one thing then as well. You will find many uses of the word from the 1940's that were clearly in referece to extermination. Hitler ordering that the American divisions in the Ardennes be "ausrottung" is not a reference to their evacuation or resettlement. :lol:
Failure of logical thinking. Even if ausrottung could mean killing, then this does not mean that it always meant killing. Irving/Potter has demonstrated this conclusively.
I have yet to see a use of this word from any time period that does not refer to killing, wiping out, or destruction.
" In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

"Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290)."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm
Thank you for proving my point.

The first quote is obviously an apocalyptic reference to the destruction of the German state. Hitler was stating that the Soviets would have anhilated the German people. There are several Goebbles speeches on this theme that make clear that it was the anhilation of the German state that they feard.

The second one is even more clear: The bad conditions are being wiped out, gotten rid of, done away with. None will remain anymore.
So ausrotten does not have to mean killing...
It means annihilation. When applied to a group of people it always means mass killing. German speaking deniers like Uddo Wallendey do not debate over this point.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:05 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:No, Himmler is not speaking loosely: "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews"
And he's talking to whom?
?
Answer the question. To whom was Himmler speaking? Or is the question too hard for you?
Am audience? A tape machine?
No. Try harder. We covered it above.

And, please, call in help. You are not only embarrassing yourself, you're boring the {!#%@} out of everyone.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:18 pm

@ Monstrous:

Are you going to show us in the text of the letter where Speer says Hitler? You were asked to quote from the letter . . . we're still waiting?

Are you going to keep dodging what you were asked about Hungary?

Are you ever going to clean up your lies about Engel and about "partisans"?

Are you ever going to produce anything beyond your suspicions to show that anything's been forged here?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:19 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote: BS. It meant one thing then as well. You will find many uses of the word from the 1940's that were clearly in referece to extermination. Hitler ordering that the American divisions in the Ardennes be "ausrottung" is not a reference to their evacuation or resettlement. :lol:
Failure of logical thinking. Even if ausrottung could mean killing, then this does not mean that it always meant killing. Irving/Potter has demonstrated this conclusively.
I have yet to see a use of this word from any time period that does not refer to killing, wiping out, or destruction.
" In August 1936 he dictated to his young secretary Christa Schroeder the text of the famous memorandum on the Four Year Plan (printed with commentary by Professor Wilhelm Treue in Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1955, at pages 184 et seq.; quoted by the plaintiff in THE WAR PATH, at page 50). In this Hitler stated that Germany must be rendered capable of waging War against the Soviet Union because 'a victory by Bolshevism would lead not to a new Versailles treaty but to the final annihilation, indeed the Ausrottung, of the German nation'. Clearly Hitler is not saying that the Bolsheviks would liquidate one hundred million Germans: but that they would subsume the nation, take it over, emasculate it -- the Germans would cease to exist as a sovereign world power."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

"Even Himmler used the word ausrotten on occasions to mean something other than murder. For example replying on February 21, 1944 to a report from Bormann on abuses in the Lublin concentration camp, Himmler wrote: 'The guilty commandant, SS-Sturmbannführer Florstedt, has been under arrest for two months already. The deplorable conditions are being severely ausgerottet and redressed in rigorous court-proceedings' (National Archives microfilm T-175, roll 53, at page 7290)."
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Aus ... ument.html

http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm
Thank you for proving my point.

The first quote is obviously an apocalyptic reference to the destruction of the German state. Hitler was stating that the Soviets would have anhilated the German people. There are several Goebbles speeches on this theme that make clear that it was the anhilation of the German state that they feard.

The second one is even more clear: The bad conditions are being wiped out, gotten rid of, done away with. None will remain anymore.
So ausrotten does not have to mean killing...
It means annihilation. When applied to a group of people it always means mass killing. German speaking deniers like Uddo Wallendey do not debate over this point.
Well, German speaking revisionists like Germar Rudolf do.

And yet again see:
http://www.cwporter.com/aussudet.htm
http://www.cwporter.com/use2.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:25 pm

Monstrous wrote:Well, German speaking revisionists like Germar Rudolf do.
There. I helped you see the folly of what you're saying.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:52 pm

drop it. It has always had more or less one meaning when applied to a group of persons.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
2. The audio recording has always been useless as evidence since there is no evidence at all for it being authentic.
There is no evidence at all for it's inauthenticity. It is clearly Himmler's voice. Erich Von Dem Bach Zelewski listined to the audio and confiormed that it was indeed Himmler. Goebbles remarked about the speech in his diary. Engel remarked about the speech in private conversation. Hilderbrandt (a gauliteir) made an offhand reference to the speech in his testimony referring to it as "shocking". One can easily deduce the speech from the reactions of contemporaries.
There exists a letter between Sipo Police chiefs in Poland IIRC where one states to the other that he is sending a copy of Himmlers speech and remarks that he wants it to be burned after reading. Read between the lines.
Source regarding Erich Von Dem Bach Zelewski and the audio recording? Anyhow a useless confessor who gained lenient treatment in exchange for lies.

The others said nothing about the audio recording used at Nuremberg.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:@ Monstrous:
Are you going to show us in the text of the letter where Speer says Hitler? You were asked to quote from the letter . . . we're still waiting?
Not sure if anyone has actually quoted the letter itself or if there is a public text available. I quoted a secondary description of the letter which included excerpts (from the auction).
.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you going to keep dodging what you were asked about Hungary?
What were I asked? Why the Hungarian Jews were not deported at first? Likely because Hungary was an ally who resisted this.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you ever going to clean up your lies about Engel and about "partisans"?
Engels? Engels was an admiral, so he was likely not present at Posen at all, confabulating rumors and gossip in captivity...

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:00 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:@ Monstrous:
Are you going to show us in the text of the letter where Speer says Hitler? You were asked to quote from the letter . . . we're still waiting?
Not sure if anyone has actually quoted the letter itself or if there is a public text available. I quoted a secondary description of the letter which included excerpts (from the auction).
But you told us that this was in the letter. Was the text of the letter concerning Hitler/Himmler directly quoted in the "secondary description of the letter which included excerpts (from the auction)"?

This is harder than it should be. You told us that the letter said something. We asked you to quote it. Just do so.
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you going to keep dodging what you were asked about Hungary?
What were I asked? Why the Hungarian Jews were not deported at first? Likely because Hungary was an ally who resisted this.
No, that is not what you were asked. You were asked about your argument concerning Hungary in this post - and I can't find where you answered.

Do you make this all harder than it should be to distract from the problems you're having here?
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you ever going to clean up your lies about Engel and about "partisans"?
Engels? Engels was an admiral, so he was likely not present at Posen at all, confabulating rumors and gossip in captivity...
Really? Engels was Marx's sidekick, Engel was indeed a German admiral who was recorded saying he was there at Posen and heard the statements about killing of Jewish children. You also tried to lie to us by claiming that Engel swallowed so-called propaganda and referred to extermination camps at Belsen and Buchenwald.

You forgot to lie more about the partisans in your latest post. Are you growing as tired of your nonsensical arguments as everyone else?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:09 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:This thread has seen a series of devastating defeats for the Believers. Some high points:
1. The critical page of the text of speech has been retyped, essentially making it useless as evidence.
In the days of typewriters, re-typing was common. There were contemporary and postwar recollections of the speeches. There was a 2nd speech and there was a similar speech at Sonthofen without this alleged issue.

You've not offered one positive piece of evidence about a forgery - and the source you rely on says that the re-typing was done during the war (a fact you lied about) and that it does not indicate a forgery (a claim you now make)!.
There may be an innocent explanation. Or not. The fact remains that the document has been tampered with and is not reliable.source regarding the speech.

Except for the October 6 speech only some alleged excerpts from the "secret speeches" have been publicized. As such context is missing and they can be summarily dismissed. If anything they confirm that Himmler was talking about partisans.

Regarding the October 6 speech, it is just incoherent. Himmler talks about a genocide yet at the same time about not losing respect for human life? Really?

And why even bring up the women and the children if he has already just stated that the Jewish people should be exterminated? There is some kind of coherence it Himmler is talking about men who were executed as partisans and then talks about what to do with their remaining relatives (who likely often provided support for their men), but there is no coherence in making a distinction for children/women if already talking about a genocide of people.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:27 pm

Argument from incredulity. Dismissed.
.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:30 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you going to keep dodging what you were asked about Hungary?
What were I asked? Why the Hungarian Jews were not deported at first? Likely because Hungary was an ally who resisted this.
No, that is not what you were asked. You were asked about your argument concerning Hungary in this post - and I can't find where you answered.

Do you make this all harder than it should be to distract from the problems you're having here?
What problem? Himmler stated that "The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year." Hungary was not occupied!

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:41 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you ever going to clean up your lies about Engel and about "partisans"?
Engels? Engels was an admiral, so he was likely not present at Posen at all, confabulating rumors and gossip in captivity...
Really? Engels was Marx's sidekick, Engel was indeed a German admiral who was recorded saying he was there at Posen and heard the statements about killing of Jewish children. You also tried to lie to us by claiming that Engel swallowed so-called propaganda and referred to extermination camps at Belsen and Buchenwald.

You forgot to lie more about the partisans in your latest post. Are you growing as tired of your nonsensical arguments as everyone else?
Engel talked about Belsen and Buchenwald and had obviously swallowed the Allied propaganda lies regarding these camps. As an admiral he would not have been present at Posen at all. He was just retelling some story about Posen he had heard from someone else and gave himself as the source in order to increase the credibility of his claims and his own importance. In fact, Engel is an example of how false stories are created and modified.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:58 pm

Monstrous wrote:There may be an innocent explanation. Or not. The fact remains that the document has been tampered with
No, the fact remains that the document was re-typed, not tampered with. "Tampered with" is your judgment and not a statement of fact.

The fact that Himmler's remarks on the Jewish question in these speeches received mention - how long, O lord, how long? - in war-time sources, that they match an audio version, and that they were testified to after the war undercuts your suspicion, which is all you've got - suspicion.

In addition, Himmler made parallel remarks a few months later in speeches at Sonthofen, including an explanation about the killing of children in one of these.
Monstrous wrote:Except for the October 6 speech only some alleged excerpts from the "secret speeches" have been publicized. As such context is missing and they can be summarily dismissed. If anything they confirm that Himmler was talking about partisans.
You are not keeping up, you know. Earlier in this thread, toward the very beginning, it is described where the full speech can be found as well as a link labeled "Axis History Forum thread on Posen speech, with transcript". Where do you think that will take you and what do you imagine you will find there?

I am curious - do you make so many false statements out of ignorance or mendacity?
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the October 6 speech, it is just incoherent. Himmler talks about a genocide yet at the same time about not losing respect for human life? Really?
I can see that you are struggling to tell us you know nothing about the Nazis or genocide. Goebbels often exhorted Germans to show the utmost pity and caring for Germans - but stone, cold hearts towards peoples perceived as enemies to Germany. At Sonthofen, Himmler put it this way:
In my view, we as Germans, however deeply we may feel in our hearts, are not entitled to allow a generation of avengers filled with hatred to grow up with whom our children and grandchildren will have to deal because we, too weak and cowardly, left it to them.
Himmler at Posen described the duty as hard - just like murdering Rohm and others in 1934 - but necessary given the Jewish threat - "since we know how hard it would be for us if we still had the Jews, as secret saboteurs, agitators, and slander mongers, among us now, in every city."

Your ignorance and poor comprehension skills do not speak to Himmler's coherence but to your own deficits.
Monstrous wrote:And why even bring up the women and the children if he has already just stated that the Jewish people should be exterminated?
Have you even read the speech? Himmler was explaining why the women and children had to be included in the extermination:
We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth.
Himmler's words. Himmler's clear explanation of his thought process and self-justification - bearing no relationship to the lies you are coughing up.
Monstrous wrote:There is some kind of coherence it Himmler is talking about men who were executed as partisans and then talks about what to do with their remaining relatives (who likely often provided support for their men), but there is no coherence in making a distinction for children/women if already talking about a genocide of people.
Ignoramus, he is telling the audience that he did not restrict the extermination to adult male Jews - and that he had women and children killed to prevent a future generation of Jews after the war from seeking revenge against Germany. I agree that the thinking is {!#%@} up - but it is coherent in Himmler's genocidal framework.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:28 pm

Monstrous wrote:What problem? Himmler stated that "The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year." Hungary was not occupied!
Our exchange on Hungary was about whether Himmler was referring to "securing Jews in place" or to the extermination of the Jews - you replied to me that Himmler's statement that the Germans had the moral right to exterminate the Jews, a people whom he said wanted to kill Germans, didn't apply to Hungarian Jews. You've still not told me why.

Himmler didn't restrict his comment on extermination of the Jews to Jews in the occupied countries, he talked about the Jewish people - so I asked you about the Jews of Hungary, as one example. I am still waiting for an answer.

Frankly, I don't think you have one and that's why you're giving us a song and a dance.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:05 pm

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Are you ever going to clean up your lies about Engel and about "partisans"?
Engels? Engels was an admiral, so he was likely not present at Posen at all, confabulating rumors and gossip in captivity...
Really? Engels was Marx's sidekick, Engel was indeed a German admiral who was recorded saying he was there at Posen and heard the statements about killing of Jewish children. You also tried to lie to us by claiming that Engel swallowed so-called propaganda and referred to extermination camps at Belsen and Buchenwald.

You forgot to lie more about the partisans in your latest post. Are you growing as tired of your nonsensical arguments as everyone else?
Engel talked about Belsen and Buchenwald and had obviously swallowed the Allied propaganda lies regarding these camps.
Liar. Try backtracking all you want - you claimed that
Monstrous wrote:. . . Engel seem to have believed that false Allied propaganda stories of extermination camps in Germany proper such as at Belsen and Buchenwald.
Engel said not a single word about extermination camps - what he said was, according to the transcript,
Belsen and Buchenwald were no surprise to me. . . . But the average German knows it's like that. Haven't you heard about how the concentration camps were from the outside?... How the people had to run past the Standartenführer... It was the utter limit. Then we're surprised when the people here reproach us for it.'
Are you still trying to have us believe that prisoners running past the Standartenführer is extermination?!??! What Engel was saying is that, whatever he was now hearing about KLs like Belsen and Buchenwald, it was not a surprise to him because like average Germans he'd already heard the same stuff and "knows it's like that" - and that the Germans shouldn't be surprised about Allied reproach of the Germans on this score.

Your other bit of tomfoolery about Engel was that he was "misremembering of Himmler talking about killing (Jewish) partisans and relatives" - which is doubly odd if he wasn't there at all, as you also assert: the partisan ruse is BS, because, as has been explained to you repeatedly, Himmler didn't make a reference to partisans at all but to the Jewish question and also in that context to eliminating the chance of future generations of "avengers" growing up. It is also BS because Engel's remark, just like Himmler's, was about killing the Jews (Engel: "told us how he killed the Jews"; Himmler: "to have this people disappear from the earth").

I've not seen an attendance list for the speech on the 6th, but Speer "shouldn't" have been there and clearly was; if Engel wasn't there, he somehow was able to summarize a key part of what Himmler said - and he seemed to think he was there, according to his own words. (I believe that the IMT documents include a list of non-attending officers on the 4th; somebody else might know.)

Here's another link to a copy of the transcript of the speech on the 4th: http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... posen.html
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:23 pm

Monstrous - you missed this question:
Are you ever going to produce anything beyond your suspicions to show that anything's been forged here?
I take it that the answer is, "No."
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:41 pm

THE STORY OF WHY HISTORY BOOKS HAD TO BECOME 10'S OF 1000'S PAGES LONG
Monstrous wrote:. . . Except for the October 6 speech only some alleged excerpts from the "secret speeches" have been publicized. . . . they can be summarily dismissed
A monstrous new standard: historical documents must be "publicized" in their entirety or any findings of researchers are not to be considered. So, for instance, if several researchers study a document, but they don't "publicize" all of it, but only read it, analyze it, compare it to other documents, and then write about what they think most important to their topic, why then the researchers' findings must be summarily dismissed, without mercy, gone! Because they didn't publicize the whole document. Even if the document is available to other researchers, and its location is known, throw the research out! in fact, every history work must reprint every document referred to in full for each to be considered at all. That is just how it works - kill the trees!

At the same time, apparently - and this seems in contradiction to the monstrous new standard of printing every word of every document discussed - Monstrous gets to declare the hidden meaning of documents he's not been able to read at all and hasn't deigned to share with us:
If anything they [Himmler's unpublicized speeches!] confirm that Himmler was talking about partisans.
Monstrous can’t cite anything to support his claim - but we’ve already seen that Monstrous feels free to make up whatever he wants to support his heroes.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:35 pm

Re Engle not being there: Karl Donitz was present at the October 6th speech. It is reasonable to assume that Engel, his deputy, would be there as well.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:33 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Re Engle not being there: Karl Donitz was present at the October 6th speech. It is reasonable to assume that Engel, his deputy, would be there as well.
Source? Donitz was a speaker but it seems he made the standard successful defense ("There was a Holocaust but I knew nothing") so he would have denied being present during Himmler's speech.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:43 am

Metapedia states that there are at least four speeches by Himmler that have the critical parts retyped:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_spee ... ts_retyped
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_spee ... _retyped_2

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:54 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:What problem? Himmler stated that "The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year." Hungary was not occupied!
Our exchange on Hungary was about whether Himmler was referring to "securing Jews in place" or to the extermination of the Jews - you replied to me that Himmler's statement that the Germans had the moral right to exterminate the Jews, a people whom he said wanted to kill Germans, didn't apply to Hungarian Jews. You've still not told me why.

Himmler didn't restrict his comment on extermination of the Jews to Jews in the occupied countries, he talked about the Jewish people - so I asked you about the Jews of Hungary, as one example. I am still waiting for an answer.

Frankly, I don't think you have one and that's why you're giving us a song and a dance.
The context was "The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year". Hungary was not occupied. Himmler may have believed it realistic to have confined all Jews in the occupied countries by the end of 1943. He would not have believed it realistic to have killed all Jews by the end of 1943.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:05 am

Returning to the audio recording. Has there ever been any kind of identification of the voice as Himmler's? Aside from Berger saying that the voice "might" be Himmler's?