Posen Speech

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Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:14 am

The Coup de Grace for denial in my opinion. The. Authenticity is undeniable in that it is cooborated by the diary of Goebbels and by Albert Speed, who stated that the speech occurred but insisted on his absence during it (debatable).

How can holocaust denial continue in light of this albatross? It makes no sense.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:59 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:The Coup de Grace for denial in my opinion. The. Authenticity is undeniable in that it is cooborated by the diary of Goebbels and by Albert Speed, who stated that the speech occurred but insisted on his absence during it (debatable).
Albert Speed, like Hitler by this point in the war, had a serious methamphetamine dependency. Take everything he says around this time with a grain of salt. Speer freaks can't be trusted.
How can holocaust denial continue in light of this albatross? It makes no sense.
It can't. It's been a dead cult for thirty years now.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:12 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:The Coup de Grace for denial in my opinion. The. Authenticity is undeniable in that it is cooborated by the diary of Goebbels and by Albert Speed, who stated that the speech occurred but insisted on his absence during it (debatable).

How can holocaust denial continue in light of this albatross? It makes no sense.
Himmler gave two speeches at Posen in October 1943 in which he touched on the Final Solution and extermination of the Jews. As to the 4 October 1943 Himmler speech at Posen, to 92 officers including top SS officers, here are some links:

THHP comments on Himmler’s Posen speech

THHP comparison of German and English versions of critical part of speech (not the complete speech as claimed

NARA listing with description of its holding of audio of Posen speech and citation to text of speech:
12. Himmler, Heinrich. "Speech to the SS Officers" ("Rede zu den SS Fuhrern"). Posen, Oct. 4, 1943. Approx. 190 min. Item 242-256, 242-259, 242-257, 242-251, 242-252, 242-249, 242-264, 242-263, 242-250, 242-266, 242-180. The speech has been published in IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals (Nuernberg, 1947-49), vol. 29, p. 110-173.
Nizkor resources and background Himmler’s Posen speech

Holocaust Controversies 2008 discussion of deniers claims re: use of ausrotten/ausrottung in Posen speech

”Listen to Audio "Heinrich Himmler at a Meeting of Schutzstaffel (SS) Major Generals, 10/04/1943"

Axis History Forum thread on Posen speech, with transcript

Himmler also gave a speech in Posen on 6 October 1943 (reprinted here “Smith, Peterson: Heinrich Himmler Geheimreden p. 267 (Edition notes), p. 273 (Nr. 85) and p. 300, Note 1” per Wikipedia).

It is in this second Posen speech that Himmler spoke of how the SS approached the question of killing Jewish women and children in the Final Solution:
I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. [...] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.

And in this speech Himmler indicates that Party Comrade Speer (yes, Mary, there was a typo in the OP, we all spotted it, too) was in attendance:
This entire ghetto was producing fur coats, dresses, and the like. Whenever we tried to get at it in the past we were told: Stop! Armaments factory! Of course, this has nothing to do with Party Comrade Speer. It wasn't your doing. It is this portion of alleged armaments factories that Party Comrade Speer and I intend to clear out in the next few weeks.

Speer, who long denied knowledge of the Final Solution, in later life acknowledged his presence at this speech, as here.

(Like Mary, Speer was thoroughly mendacious.)

The Reichsführer-SS also gave a notorious speech to generals at Sonthofen, this one in May 1944. It's listed in the NARA holdings (see link above) as follows:
19. Himmler, Heinrich. "Speech to the Generals." Sonthofen, May 5, 1944. Approx. 115 min. Item 242-200, 242-210. Speech was held as part of a political education program. Comparison with text as found in Reichsfuhrer SS. Personlicher Stab. Schriftgutverwaltung. Heft Nr. 22. EAP 161-b-12/280. T175, roll 92, frames 2613448-537, indicates the recording omits the equivalent of the text pages 34, 54, and 55. Disc sequence, however, is complete and numbered 1-43.

In this speech, Himmler also referred directly to the extermination of the Jews, returning to the issue of what to do about women and children, saying (as quoted here by David Thompson at Axis History Forum, post about 3/4 way down page):
Another question was essential for the internal security of the Reich and of Europe. That was the Jewish question. It has been solved without compromise, in accordance with orders and with conviction based on reason. [At this point, applause can be heard on the sound-recording tape that has been preserved.] . . . I did not consider that I had the right—this concerns the Jewish women and children—to allow the children to become the avengers who would kill our fathers and our grandchildren. I would have considered that to be cowardice. That is why the question was settled without compromise.
Further, quoting David Thompson again, same link:
On 21 June [Himmler] once more spoke to a group of generals in Sonthofen: "An-other important question still had to be solved. It was the most terrible duty and the most terrible task ever assigned to an organization: the mission of solving the Jewish question."
The Posen and Sonthofen speeches cause all sorts of mildly amusing denier tergiversations - from waffling about ausrottung to claims of inauthenticity (Mary's snottiness here is simply her mildly amusing way of deflecting). As for my view, I agree with you that Himmler's statements at Posen are damning - but I don't believe there to be any single "coup de grace." The best - and incontrovertible - proofs of the Holocaust remain the vast web of independent pieces of evidence for the major elements of the genocide, from planning to actions on the ground.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Gord » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:[(Like Mary, Speer was thoroughly mendacious.)
men·da·cious
/menˈdāSHəs/

adjective: mendacious

not telling the truth; lying.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:q As for my view, I agree with you that Himmler's statements at Posen are damning - but I don't believe there to be any single "coup de grace." The best - and incontrovertible - proofs of the Holocaust remain the vast web of independent pieces of evidence for the major elements of the genocide, from planning to actions on the ground.
What I meant was that It is by far the crown jewel of the anti-revisionist war chest. I must admit that I was sceptical of it for a long time, it was too good to be true. The Mention of it in the diary of Goebbles is huge though.

Do you know of any ways to absolutely verify it's authenticity?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:38 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:q As for my view, I agree with you that Himmler's statements at Posen are damning - but I don't believe there to be any single "coup de grace." The best - and incontrovertible - proofs of the Holocaust remain the vast web of independent pieces of evidence for the major elements of the genocide, from planning to actions on the ground.
What I meant was that It is by far the crown jewel of the anti-revisionist war chest. I must admit that I was sceptical of it for a long time, it was too good to be true. The Mention of it in the diary of Goebbles is huge though.

Do you know of any ways to absolutely verify it's authenticity?
Is there a reason to doubt it? I would think examining chain of custody including where and how the recordings and notes were found, expert voice analysis, comparison of audio to typed version with handwriting analysis for RFSS's notes, analysis of recording medium, "traces" (as with Goebbels' diary, Schirach's memoirs, Engel's recorded comment, others whom I don't have top of mind), along with all the ordinary work . . . at the old RODOH deniers and regular folk reached some kind of agreement to pay for voice analysis but as I recall the idea was dropped (cost?). Revs have been saying stupid things about these speeches for years - a bunch of it in the "he didn't say it but there's nothing damning in what he said" vein. The links I posted above give information on the recordings, typescript and handwriting, "traces," sound quality and voice, IIRC. As NARA holds this stuff, I'd start with them, look at IMT/NMT transcripts and docs relative to 1st Posen speech, etc . . .
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:44 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:What I meant was that It is by far the crown jewel of the anti-revisionist war chest.
I don't know, I think that there are a lot of IFWF documents. Bear in mind - revisionists manage to "deny" the Jäger and Stahlecker reports - if you want to see some comical footwork, drop in sometime on Dog-Maryzilla in an old JREF thread and watch her try dancing away from those documents. Yes, she lurches around, blusters and stomps, and falls down repeatedly, but it's the way she does it . . .

I see the speeches at Posen and Sonthofen as pieces of evidence, among many others, and it is on the burden of the totality of the evidence - providing the best interpretation we have for all that we know - where deniers really come a-cropper.

Is there some new argument someone's concocted about Posen and Sonthofen?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Balsamo » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:29 pm

Hardcore deniers will always deny...and when it is impossible to deny, they'll try to justify, and when justification is impossible, they will focus on allies crimes - like "they too killed women and children - the tactic depend on their degree of denierism.
A 100% will stick to the forgery theme, other will point out that Himmler does not mention "gas chambers" or "extermination camps" which then confirms that those two concepts were invented by the Jews for their sole interests...so goes the story...

So those who admit that Himmler was indeed speaking of killing jews will develop a theory that he was speaking of the campaign against the Jewish Partisans in the East, and Jewish Bolshevism in general, that he was only justifying the action of his EG behind the line...
They would say: "the EG killed women and children, but those were sometimes also committing terrorist actions, it is inhumane but justified, the same way, the Allied were bombing hundreds of thousands of women and children, and as the Germans, they did it to win the war...blablah..."

So StatMec is right has it is not the absolute proof, and i neither a aware of a real definitive proof if taken on its own, while proofs are numerous if connected with each others.
The above typical denier's argument cannot explain why the ss took the time to organize a 3000 miles transport of 80 jewish orphens from a small village of southern France to Auschwitz, for eg, or as StatMec would mention, the case of Corfu's Jews. That is too historical for most of them, and history is the least of their concerned.
Within five minutes they'll be back with the gas chambers, the 6.000.000, etc. Just like our two specimens here on skeptic - which even by revisionist standards are low-level - whenever one is specific and ask specific question, they just dissapear for a while, until they come back with another opportunity to repeat their senseless speech.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:What I meant was that It is by far the crown jewel of the anti-revisionist war chest.
I don't know, I think that there are a lot of IFWF documents. Bear in mind - revisionists manage to "deny" the Jäger and Stahlecker reports - if you want to see some comical footwork, drop in sometime on Dog-Maryzilla in an old JREF thread and watch her try dancing away from those documents. Yes, she lurches around, blusters and stomps, and falls down repeatedly, but it's the way she does it . . .

I see the speeches at Posen and Sonthofen as pieces of evidence, among many others, and it is on the burden of the totality of the evidence - providing the best interpretation we have for all that we know - where deniers really come a-cropper.

Is there some new argument someone's concocted about Posen and Sonthofen?
Some {!#%@} on the David Icke forum argued that they were forged. He based this on the fact that the Posen speech was partially recorded on a disc of some kind that was out of date, and that the handwritten script was found in Rosenberg's possession (Rosenberg was a rival of Himmler he said). Never min the fact that the speech has been independently corroborated by Speer and Goebbles. Speer corroborated it in a private letter, after decades of denying knowlage of the Final Solution. Why would he incriminate himself if the speech never happened?

No explanation from denier-lairs there

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:26 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:No explanation from denier-lairs there
Danke, same old, same old; they flounder around like that on CODOH and at his trial Irving made even a worse ass of himself than usual over this stuff
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 28, 2015 1:04 pm

Worth highlighting what Goebbels recorded in his diary after hearing Himmler's 2nd Posen speech, which, according to the propaganda minister, gave "a completely frank and unvarnished picture":
He [Himmler] is convinced that by the end of the year we can solve the Jewish question for the whole of Europe. He advocates the most radical and toughest solution, namely to exterminate the Jews, the whole lot of them. That is certainly a consistent, albeit brutal solution. For we must take on the responsibility for ensuring that this issue is resolved in our time. Later generations will certainly not have the courage and obsession to tackle this problem in the way we can now.
(Longerich, Goebbels: A Biography, p 611)

A few comments:
1) Goebbels' diary entry is worse than problematic for deniers who claim that the speech, or even the extermination section, is a fabrication; Goebbels was explicit about extermination and his entry repeated some of the Nazi truisms about the responsibility of the Nazi generation vis-a-vis future generations.
2) Importantly, Himmler's 6 October 1943 speech at Posen, on which Goebbels remarked, writing that the Germans would solve the Jewish question in Europe by the end of 1943, contained this statement:
The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over.
Goebbels' text is a gloss on this statement, which he heard Himmler make at Posen.
3) Goebbels' comment counters Bloxham's argument that the Nazis considered the Final Solution to be complete by the time of the Posen speeches and that the intent was not to exterminate the Jews of all of Europe; Goebbels' at least took Himmler's speech to mean that the Nazis planned to finish the job - eliminating the Jews ("exterminate the Jews, the whole lot of them") - "for the whole of Europe." Goebbels explained that the policy enunciated by Himmler was "brutal" but "consistent": exterminate all the European Jews. Himmler put the Nazi leadership on record as not stopping halfway. Unlike what Bloxham argues - that in the eyes of the Nazi leadership the Final Solution in the "Jewish core area" in the east had crushed the power of the Jews - here we have Goebbels writing explicitly that "the whole lot" of European Jews had been targeted for extermination. This understanding was in line with the text of Himmler's speech and Nazi policies and actions in western and eastern Europe. The job was not, as we know, completed on the time line projected by Himmler at Posen - with most notably the invasion of Hungary taking place in 1944 and the subsequent mass murder of most Hungarian Jews outside Budapest.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Balsamo » Thu May 28, 2015 2:20 pm

Still, some questions remains open:
- Why was Himmler so convinced that the problem would be solved by the end of 1943? Especially when one considers the case of France.

By the october 1943, on can estimate that less than a quarter of the Jews of France have been deported, and even more strangely, there is even a kind of deceleration of the number convoys following the speech. 2 in October 43, 1 in November, 2 in December 43. This trend continue in 1944, with 1 or 2 convoy each month (except 3 in May 44).

In the case of Belgium, there will be no transport at all between September (EDIT) 43 and January 44. And then "only" 2500 Jews will be deported in 1944, in 5 small convoys.

It still shows the existence of priorities, if cone compares those western deportation with the frenzy and the efficiency which the Hungarian Jews will be deported with.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu May 28, 2015 2:41 pm

Thanks Balsamo - I was expecting you to comment!

My take is that Himmler was more doing some tough talking, posturing, and overselling - combined with underscoring the urgency of the intent - than making an actual prediction. As I'm traveling today I will come back to this in the case of Western Europe - with a post on the status of the deportations there, and the reasons for that status, vs what Himmler "promised" at Posen. After all, as you say, there were only three months left in the year - and, in addition to the incomplete status of the deportations in Western Europe the Third Reich had large numbers of Jews still remaining in allied countries. I do not think the problem in the west was priorities but rather realpolitik (which I know you expect me to say!), and I will explain further why I believe this to be the case when I have some time. I'll post my further thoughts in the France thread.

Going even beyond the timing questions, that the Nazis intended to wipe out the Jews of Europe and that the extermination was never completed are not points in contradiction with each other. The latter point was subject to reality (including both politics and the course of the war).
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu May 28, 2015 4:38 pm

Dostawca - sciany tekstu!


And we Image for that, StatMech. :-D
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:46 am

It's clear to me: He was convinced he could do it by the year's end, only to miss his deadline. It happens.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:05 am

Himmler had to have known the difficulties which the Germans were encountering in, for example, France, where not even a quarter of the Jews had been deported by fall 1943. The documents show that within the French occupation authority and within the RSHA the issues noted here were reported and discussed.

Some examples: On 25 February 1943, Gestapo Müller wrote a letter to German Foreign Office complaining about Italian actions interfering with German anti-Jewish efforts; Himmler followed up on this letter with a direct complaint to HSSPF Oberg during a visit of the latter to Berlin (Lozowick, p 218). Eichmann followed this up in March with a complaint to the Italians (which went unanswered) and Röthke (head of the Judenreferat) also complained to Müller about Lospinoso’s “delaying tactics” (Lozowick, p 223).

Further, at the end of February, with deportations from France stalled, Knochen (who reported to the HSSPF) explained to Müller, as Eichmann was demanding deportation of the Jews with French citizenship, that, as I quoted from Lozowick's book in the France thread,
the French. Pétain at the head, [Knochen] said, opposed deporting Jews who were French citizens. . . . Second, the direction the war was taking was encouraging the French to toughen their position. . . . Third, the Italians opposed deportation of the Jews, and were dragging the French along with them; in any case, so long as the Italian zone of occupation was safe Jews would continue to stream there to escape deportation.
(Lozowick, p 216)

In June 1943,
the Germans launched a new project in summer 1943 to increase the flow of Jews to the east. Now they cast their eyes upon a hitherto exempt group of Jews: recently naturalized French citizens. . . . Himmler himself urged the Judenreferat forward in June 1943.
Marrus & Paxton, p 323; I've explained in the France thread that the Vichy government, after stalling in spring and summer 1943, ultimately in August refused to make French Jews available for the deportation program.

So I would add to "unmet goals" (which do indeed happen) that Himmler was talking tough at Posen, positioning himself as the champion of a great success, even at the expense of being unrealistic: deporting 250,000 Jews from France between October and December 1943 wasn't practical.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Colin Garner » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:00 am

There are many damning Himmler speeches from 1943-1944, including two at Posen, two at Sonthofen and one at Kharkov. A lot for deniers to chew on.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaste ... eeches.htm

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:10 pm

Thoughts on the arguments here?
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:29 am

I have already viewed that page.

The "alleged disparagement" thing is BS concocted by someone with no knowledge of Nazi policy. The bitching re the recording methid is tripe, as all of Himmlers speeches, including hundreds of non incriminating ones were recorded in the same manner. it fails to take into account the reactions of Goebbles in his diary and Frank, VDBZ et all at Nuremberg.

SM may have more.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:50 am

Monstrous wrote:Thoughts on the arguments here?
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
Metapedia? Ok, have you read this thread? I think a lot of the ground is already covered here. Are there particular points from the WN thingy you'd like to discuss?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:17 am

It basically rehashes the Been-there arguments, quoting Butz on Berger, some waffeling on double negatives ect. ect.

They basically require perfect grammar. I know for a fact that perfect grammar from political leaders is never an expectation.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:41 am

Jeff_36 wrote:It basically rehashes the Been-there arguments, quoting Butz on Berger, some waffeling on double negatives ect. ect.

They basically require perfect grammar. I know for a fact that perfect grammar from political leaders is never an expectation.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:42 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I have already viewed that page.

The "alleged disparagement" thing is BS concocted by someone with no knowledge of Nazi policy. The bitching re the recording methid is tripe, as all of Himmlers speeches, including hundreds of non incriminating ones were recorded in the same manner. it fails to take into account the reactions of Goebbles in his diary and Frank, VDBZ et all at Nuremberg.

SM may have more.
The Waffen-SS had many non-German members.

According to the link below some of Himmler's later speeches did use magnetic tape: Not sure how many speech recordings are supposed to have survived but many are stated to have been destroyed. The source lists only 47 speeches by all leaders. Obviously early speeches before the introduction of tape did not use tape. So there remains only some speeches which could have been recorded on tape but are supposed to have been recorded on old technology discs instead. Considering the much better quality of the magnetic tape this seems dubious. Making forged recordings of some speeches on old style discs would not have been particularly difficult.
http://www.archives.gov/research/captur ... dings.html

Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. The Jews were to be "auszurotten" so it again depends on how to interpret this.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:49 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:Thoughts on the arguments here?
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
Metapedia? Ok, have you read this thread? I think a lot of the ground is already covered here. Are there particular points from the WN thingy you'd like to discuss?
*Irving stating that the critical parts are retyped?
*Why would Himmler confess and if doing so briefly in the middle of a long speech?
*Why does the speech state that genocide was part of the NSDAP party program?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:02 am

1 Irving also stated that he did not think it was a forgery

2 why not

3 *plans. He was more likely referencing general plans

Also: it would have been very difficult to find a convincing impersonator. You have yet to adress the reactions of Gobbles, Frank, and Von dem bach

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:10 am

Jeff_36 wrote:1 Irving also stated that he did not think it was a forgery
Irving's argument was a bit of ad hoc pleading to exonerate Hitler - his argument fell to pieces under cross examination. And of course we have the typescript and the audio tape, as explained in this thread.

Irving's take was comical: the usual missing pages and re-typed page - but accepting the speech and trying to argue that Heinie had re-typed the page to cover-up his having spoken to the top brass about "orders" for the murders in the copy prepared for the Führer because, according to Irving, the Führer only learned around this time that Himmler had been carrying out mass murder on his own authority all along . . . thus: wartime tampering by Himmler to hide from Hitler that he'd been basically quoting him without permission . . . a version retyped for Himmler's file with the phrase about orders but a different version that must have gone to Dolfy . . . as Rampton said, without any evidence of that, Irving's argument being "the leap into space which, I am afraid, I do not follow."
Jeff_36 wrote:2 why not
First of all, Himmler did not "confess"; Himmler made a very long speech touching on major wartime themes as well as minor issues, a review of his world, so to speak, the Final Solution surely being a major theme. Himmler touted the discipline and performance of the SS and projected the completion of the Final Solution, including foreign countries and Mischlinge/mixed marriages, but he also made clear that the SS had acted for the party, state and German people - and, in his view, all were in on it. This is anything but a "confession": he was proud of the work, considered the extermination necessary, and implicated the leadership as a whole in the Final Solution ("You are now informed, and you will keep it to yourselves."). And he urged the leaders to stay the course.
Jeff_36 wrote:3 *plans. He was more likely referencing general plans
The WN webpage says this:
According the politically correct interpretation, the speech states that genocide of the Jews was part of the NSDAP party program. However, the program contained nothing relating to any physical extermination of the Jews.
Himmler doesn't reference the party program specifically; he says that rooting out the Jews is what every party comrade expects, it's part of the program (this could mean SS, it could mean party and state plan, it is just vague and not a technical precise reference to the formal Program of the NSDAP). I don't consider this a meaningful objection in the context of the text.
Jeff_36 wrote:Also: it would have been very difficult to find a convincing impersonator. You have yet to adress the reactions of Gobbles, Frank, and Von dem bach
Claims of forgery founder on these contemporary echoes of the speech.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:23 am

Furthermore, there exists a letter between Gauilitiers referencing the speech as a top secret item to be destroyed after reading. The extermination of the Jews was the only item in the speech that had not yet been aired in public, along with the kidnapping of Polish children.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Xcalibur » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:14 am

Hey Wannasee. I think it's a good thing the Canadian government is willing to pay for your rehab. Do send us an email or two after you're done. From the half-way house. I'm sure I can say with confidence that all of us here at SSF will be praying for you and will do our endeavorest to help you with the twelve-step program. And when that's finally in place, we can educate you about history, a subject you seem interested in, but know nothing about.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:19 am

Please withhold your mockery. I happen to have been clear as a whistle during the past few posts.

You are the one who seems to know little about history, as you hold to a specific chronology that has little support from either the relevant documentary evidence or relevant post war testimony.

Unlike you, I have put a huge amount of thought into these questions.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:29 pm

The Waffen-SS had many non-German members.
Yes, but only 1 division more or less comprised of Russian hiwis (Hitler and Himmler were opposed to it's creation btw). The conscription of non Germanic SS members did not start until the Germans were losing the war badly.
According to the link below some of Himmler's later speeches did use magnetic tape.
Yes, but speeches that he made in the same time period of the Posen speech (such as his speech to the Galicia Division of the SS) were recorded on discs. That says a lot.
Making forged recordings of some speeches on old style discs would not have been particularly difficult.
Yes it would have been. Himmler's speeches were seldom heard by the public, so an impersonator would have little to work with. It would have been much easier to impersonate Goebbles for instance, as he was heard in public almost every day.
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. The Jews were to be "auszurotten" so it again depends on how to interpret this.
He says "exterminated, bag and baggage" there are no two interpretations about this.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:25 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. . . .
How to explain, then, that a few days after the speech Goebbels wrote in his diary exactly as the Reichsführer SS put it, that the Jewish question was to be solved by the end of this year, an unrealistic deadline btw?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:24 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. . . .
How to explain, then, that a few days after the speech Goebbels wrote in his diary exactly as the Reichsführer SS put it, that the Jewish question was to be solved by the end of this year, an unrealistic deadline btw?
solution = all Jews genocided by the end of 1943 = unrealistic that Himmler would have believed this
solution = all Jews secured in places where they could not "backstab" the war effort by the end of 1943 = realistic that Himmler would have believed this
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:33 am

Jeff_36 wrote:
The Waffen-SS had many non-German members.
Yes, but only 1 division more or less comprised of Russian hiwis (Hitler and Himmler were opposed to it's creation btw). The conscription of non Germanic SS members did not start until the Germans were losing the war badly.
According to the link below some of Himmler's later speeches did use magnetic tape.
Yes, but speeches that he made in the same time period of the Posen speech (such as his speech to the Galicia Division of the SS) were recorded on discs. That says a lot.
Making forged recordings of some speeches on old style discs would not have been particularly difficult.
Yes it would have been. Himmler's speeches were seldom heard by the public, so an impersonator would have little to work with. It would have been much easier to impersonate Goebbles for instance, as he was heard in public almost every day.
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. The Jews were to be "auszurotten" so it again depends on how to interpret this.
He says "exterminated, bag and baggage" there are no two interpretations about this.
Regarding, Waffen-SS, Slavs are not just Russians. For example Ukrainians were recruited in large numbers well before the Posen speeches. Then there were the Eastern European Slavic allies.

Regarding the audio recording, whoever may have impersonated Himmler during the Posen speeches would have had little difficulty doing the same for the few other Himmler speeches allegedly recorded on discs from this period. Every single one of the surviving "Himmler" speeches (discs and tape) could have been recorded in a week or two by an impersonator. Let us remember that that there are voice actors who do this every day for a living (dubbing foreign films and so on).

That Himmler seldom made public speeches would make it easier to impersonate Himmler since so few comparisons could be made. One could even imagine that all of the few remaining official recordings of Himmler are forgeries which would make an audio comparison impossible.

Anyway, the audio quality on the dics is so poor that any voice analysis is difficult to make even assuming there are any genuine audio recording of Himmler left. Any person with a somewhat similar voice would be sufficient.

Yet another possibility is that no actor was used but that only selected parts of an original (tape) audio recording was played out in order to record a new disc audio recording. Then you actually have Himmler's voice. The simplest solution.

Regarding Goebbels's diary, are you arguing that they cremated the baggage also? That the German phrase "mit Kind und Kegel" was used (which is often used to describe a permanent move with all belongings) is evidence for that it is an expulsion of Jews that is described and not killing. The verb used is still "auszurotten" which has many different interpretations.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:40 am

Jeff_36 wrote:Furthermore, there exists a letter between Gauilitiers referencing the speech as a top secret item to be destroyed after reading. The extermination of the Jews was the only item in the speech that had not yet been aired in public, along with the kidnapping of Polish children.
Source?

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:01 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:1 Irving also stated that he did not think it was a forgery
Irving's argument was a bit of ad hoc pleading to exonerate Hitler - his argument fell to pieces under cross examination. And of course we have the typescript and the audio tape, as explained in this thread.

Irving's take was comical: the usual missing pages and re-typed page - but accepting the speech and trying to argue that Heinie had re-typed the page to cover-up his having spoken to the top brass about "orders" for the murders in the copy prepared for the Führer because, according to Irving, the Führer only learned around this time that Himmler had been carrying out mass murder on his own authority all along . . . thus: wartime tampering by Himmler to hide from Hitler that he'd been basically quoting him without permission . . . a version retyped for Himmler's file with the phrase about orders but a different version that must have gone to Dolfy . . . as Rampton said, without any evidence of that, Irving's argument being "the leap into space which, I am afraid, I do not follow."
Jeff_36 wrote:2 why not
First of all, Himmler did not "confess"; Himmler made a very long speech touching on major wartime themes as well as minor issues, a review of his world, so to speak, the Final Solution surely being a major theme. Himmler touted the discipline and performance of the SS and projected the completion of the Final Solution, including foreign countries and Mischlinge/mixed marriages, but he also made clear that the SS had acted for the party, state and German people - and, in his view, all were in on it. This is anything but a "confession": he was proud of the work, considered the extermination necessary, and implicated the leadership as a whole in the Final Solution ("You are now informed, and you will keep it to yourselves."). And he urged the leaders to stay the course.
Jeff_36 wrote:3 *plans. He was more likely referencing general plans
The WN webpage says this:
According the politically correct interpretation, the speech states that genocide of the Jews was part of the NSDAP party program. However, the program contained nothing relating to any physical extermination of the Jews.
Himmler doesn't reference the party program specifically; he says that rooting out the Jews is what every party comrade expects, it's part of the program (this could mean SS, it could mean party and state plan, it is just vague and not a technical precise reference to the formal Program of the NSDAP). I don't consider this a meaningful objection in the context of the text.
Jeff_36 wrote:Also: it would have been very difficult to find a convincing impersonator. You have yet to adress the reactions of Gobbles, Frank, and Von dem bach
Claims of forgery founder on these contemporary echoes of the speech.
The ad hominem against Irving (and Irving's theories about Hitler being unaware of the Holocaust) are completely irrelevant for the factual question regarding whether parts of text was in fact retyped or not retyped as stated by Irving under oath. Have anyone actually denied this retyping as stated by Irving (implying perjury)? Source?

Regarding whether Himmler confessed, the speech stated that "I want to mention another very difficult matter here before you in all frankness. Among ourselves, it ought to be spoken of quite openly for once; yet we shall never speak of it in public." So this is supposedly a truly exceptional and unique event. Very strange that it would placed in the middle of a long speech and only with a few brief and unclear sentences. Probably would have been utterly incomprehensible and unclear to a SS-officer or Gauleiter from, say, the western parts of Germany who had never been informed of a genocide before this supposedly unique event.

Regarding the party program, the speech stated "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews". So the speech is clearly talking about the Party programme. If arguing that the speech is talking about a genocide, then the implication is Himmler is stating that genocide was part of the Party programme (which is incorrect).

Regarding the reactions of Frank and von dem Bach, are you referring to something said during the Nuremberg trials? All Nuremberg "confessions" are uninteresting considering the torture and threats thereof, threats of deprotation of family members to the Soviet Union, and so on. Goebbels's diary and audio recording dealt with above.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:32 am

Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. . . .
How to explain, then, that a few days after the speech Goebbels wrote in his diary exactly as the Reichsführer SS put it, that the Jewish question was to be solved by the end of this year, an unrealistic deadline btw?
solution = all Jews genocided by the end of 1943 = unrealistic that Himmler would have believed this
solution = all Jews secured in places where they could not "backstab" the war effort by the end of 1943 = realistic that Himmler would have believed this
Well, now you’re changing the subject – the question Jeff and I replied to was whether or not Goebbels’ diary entry referred to the Posen speech; it did, you seem to agree. And Goebbels wrote nothing about “secure places”; he wrote
[Himmler] advocates the most radical and toughest solution, namely to exterminate the Jews, the whole lot of them.
To your other points of confusion, Himmler would of course be the first person to make an unrealistic statement, right? And this statement would be the first time he'd ever said something unrealistic or had an unrealistic thought, is that what you're trying to tell us?

Himmler used some very strange expressions to describe the effort for "securing Jews in places" - like this one on the 6th:
I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed
and this one on the 4th:
I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people
and this other one from the speech on the 4th:
We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.
Can you explain to us how those concepts refer to "securing Jews in places" other than in graves?

And, no, "all Jews secured in places where they could not 'backstab' the war effort by the end of 1943" was no more realistic than all Jews exterminated? How in hell were the 100s of 1000s of Hungarian Jews to be "secured" in 10 or 12 weeks during late 1943 - just for one minor point?

Question for you: Were the Jews, in your opinion, "backstabbing" the German war effort?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:56 am

Monstrous wrote:The ad hominem against Irving (and Irving's theories about Hitler being unaware of the Holocaust) are completely irrelevant for the factual question regarding whether parts of text was in fact retyped or not retyped as stated by Irving under oath. Have anyone actually denied this retyping as stated by Irving (implying perjury)? Source?
I thought you wanted to know about what Irving claimed and how it worked out. Sorry for my giving you the benefit of the doubt; I won't do it again. It is not unusual, of course, for re-typing to occur in the days of typewriters (Irving's claim was war-time re-typing). And, then, of course, we need to deal with Sonthofen, where generals got Himmler's spiel . . .
Monstrous wrote:Regarding whether Himmler confessed, the speech stated that "I want to mention another very difficult matter here before you in all frankness. Among ourselves, it ought to be spoken of quite openly for once; yet we shall never speak of it in public." So this is supposedly a truly exceptional and unique event.
It is not a "confession," which is what you asked about.
Monstrous wrote:Very strange that it would placed in the middle of a long speech and only with a few brief and unclear sentences. Probably would have been utterly incomprehensible and unclear to a SS-officer or Gauleiter from, say, the western parts of Germany who had never been informed of a genocide before this supposedly unique event.
Because it was an aspect of the war and, just as he said, "another very difficult matter" he needed to deal with in the terms I've already explained. This was a time of serious military reversals for the Germans, and Himmler was dealing with the extermination of the Jews in that context. The speech on the 4th was not to random SS officers and Gauleiter but to an audience composed mainly of very high ranking SS officers (33 Obergruppenführers, 51 Gruppenführers and eight Brigadeführers, according to Wikipedia). (It was the speech on the 6th for which about 60 Reichsleiter and Gauleiter were in attendance; this was the speech in which Himmler explained why the children, too.) In any event, his intent was in part to clarify expectations - among leaders who undoubtedly had various degrees of knowledge already, in part to ensure unity of purpose and will, in part to assure the leaders there'd be no halfway measures, in part to put the leadership "on the record" - not to give a detailed accounting. After all, by late 1943, several million Jews had been involved in the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people. Agencies and officials across many institutions - police, military, Foreign Office, WVHA, occupation authorities had been involved in this evacuation/extermination.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the party program, the speech stated "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews". So the speech is clearly talking about the Party programme. If arguing that the speech is talking about a genocide, then the implication is Himmler is stating that genocide was part of the Party programme (which is incorrect).
No, that's not clear at all. The word Programm can be translated, according to German-English dictionaries, as "program" or "plan" or "scheme"; it doesn't clearly refer to the capital P NSDAP Program. But so what? By 1943, Hitler's "prophecy" wasn't exactly a secret, was it? He's talking about the man in the street and the need to keep to the faith.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the reactions of Frank and von dem Bach, are you referring to something said during the Nuremberg trials? All Nuremberg "confessions" are uninteresting considering the torture and threats thereof, threats of deprotation of family members to the Soviet Union, and so on.
Was Speer also threatened and tortured when he said he had in fact heard the speech? IIRC parts of the speech not related to the so-called evacuation of the Jews were played at Nuremberg.

One does need to treat the postwar statements of the gentlemen who testified about the speech - and there were more than those whom Jeff mentioned - with care, as they had reasons to minimize what they knew beforehand and so on.

I am not sure what torture you are referring to given the range of people testifying about the speech. Would you be so kind as to go through the list of people who spoke about the speeches after the war and explain their torture, how the torture was used, of what it consisted, and how it elicited specific testimony?

The pre-Nuremberg references that I referred to came from Goebbels and Engel, who was IIRC at the speech on the 6th.
Monstrous wrote:Goebbels's diary and audio recording dealt with above.
Indeed, your questions were dealt with above.

So, are you going to tell us your view of the speeches?
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:43 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
Goebbel in his diary stated nothing not already stated in the October 4 speech. . . .
How to explain, then, that a few days after the speech Goebbels wrote in his diary exactly as the Reichsführer SS put it, that the Jewish question was to be solved by the end of this year, an unrealistic deadline btw?
solution = all Jews genocided by the end of 1943 = unrealistic that Himmler would have believed this
solution = all Jews secured in places where they could not "backstab" the war effort by the end of 1943 = realistic that Himmler would have believed this
Well, now you’re changing the subject – the question Jeff and I replied to was whether or not Goebbels’ diary entry referred to the Posen speech; it did, you seem to agree. And Goebbels wrote nothing about “secure places”; he wrote
[Himmler] advocates the most radical and toughest solution, namely to exterminate the Jews, the whole lot of them.
To your other points of confusion, Himmler would of course be the first person to make an unrealistic statement, right? And this statement would be the first time he'd ever said something unrealistic or had an unrealistic thought, is that what you're trying to tell us?

Himmler used some very strange expressions to describe the effort for "securing Jews in places" - like this one on the 6th:
I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed
and this one on the 4th:
I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people
and this other one from the speech on the 4th:
We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us.
Can you explain to us how those concepts refer to "securing Jews in places" other than in graves?

And, no, "all Jews secured in places where they could not 'backstab' the war effort by the end of 1943" was no more realistic than all Jews exterminated? How in hell were the 100s of 1000s of Hungarian Jews to be "secured" in 10 or 12 weeks during late 1943 - just for one minor point?

Question for you: Were the Jews, in your opinion, "backstabbing" the German war effort?
Regarding the translation of the diary entry, I have already discussed that in another reply.

Regarding the quotes from the speeches, they seem to be covered here:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches

Obviously Goebbels did not think that Himmler was obviously unrealistic regarding a solution by the end of 1943. Difficult to fit with solution = genocide. Even assuming Himmler had a regular habit of fabulating in speeches.

Regarding the Hungarian Jews, they were in no position to "backstab" the German war effort. Unlike, say, Jews in Germany. Would some Jews have helped the Allies if given the chance? Very likely, considering the German hostility towards Jews. Let us also remember the treatment of the Japanese American and the Volga Germans based on the suspected possibility that some group member might help Japan and Germany.

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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:46 pm

Monstrous wrote:Regarding the translation of the diary entry, I have already discussed that in another reply.
Well, you're free to believe that Goebbels meant "eradication" of their baggage. Your argument was so silly I didn't think you meant it seriously. Anyway, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mit_Kind_und_Kegel.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the quotes from the speeches, they seem to be covered here:
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
Well, the WN piece makes a number of claims. Which ones do you credit? - and do tell us why.

By the way, Himmler compared the duty which the SS carried out in the Jewish question to the duty they'd carried out 30 June 1934. Were Rohm and the others then taken to "secure places" at that time? He also gave the example of his men having to face 1,000 bodies piled up - were these the Jews taken to "secure places"? Is that how evacuation and resettlement are achieved - by bodies in heaps?
Monstrous wrote:Obviously Goebbels did not think that Himmler was obviously unrealistic regarding a solution by the end of 1943. Difficult to fit with solution = genocide. Even assuming Himmler had a regular habit of fabulating in speeches.
Please don't misstate what I've posted. To be unrealistic, to express urgency, to use exaggeration, to over-promise are not fable telling. "Obviously" it "obviously" doesn't matter whether Goebbels saw a flaw in the RFSS's prediction or agreed with it - I see you're continuing to try to slide away from your original point that the diary entry didn't refer to the speech. Thanks for this concession.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the Hungarian Jews, they were in no position to "backstab" the German war effort.
Really? Hungary was a solid ally of Germany? Without risk of wandering off the reservation? In a country without influential Jews? Germany did not press Hungary to solve the Jewish question? I see. You should perhaps read a book on the war and tell us about it.
Monstrous wrote:Unlike, say, Jews in Germany. Would some Jews have helped the Allies if given the chance? Very likely, considering the German hostility towards Jews.
So Himmler, when he said on 6 October, that "The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over," was referring to the Jewish danger in Germany? Really?

You might want to read Himmler's words: as to Germany he spoke on 4 October of the solution in the past tense, because the Jews in Germany had been by and large, mit Kind und Kegel, destroyed by late 1943. Or are you going to explain to us the powerful and influential situation of German Jews in fall 1943, giving us their numbers, describing their organizations, and citing examples of their effective undermining of the Reich?

Let's try again: I didn't ask if Jews might or could "backstab" the German war effort. I asked if, in your opinion, they'd done so. A simple, plain answer will suffice.
Monstrous wrote:Let us also remember the treatment of the Japanese American and the Volga Germans based on the suspected possibility that some group member might help Japan and Germany.
Totally irrelevant to understanding what Himmler said at Posen.

You evaded this: "So, are you going to tell us your view of the speeches?" And this: "Was Speer also threatened and tortured when he said he had in fact heard the speech?" And so on.
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Re: Posen Speech

Post by Monstrous » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Monstrous wrote:The ad hominem against Irving (and Irving's theories about Hitler being unaware of the Holocaust) are completely irrelevant for the factual question regarding whether parts of text was in fact retyped or not retyped as stated by Irving under oath. Have anyone actually denied this retyping as stated by Irving (implying perjury)? Source?
I thought you wanted to know about what Irving claimed and how it worked out. Sorry for my giving you the benefit of the doubt; I won't do it again. It is not unusual, of course, for re-typing to occur in the days of typewriters (Irving's claim was war-time re-typing). And, then, of course, we need to deal with Sonthofen, where generals got Himmler's spiel . . .
Monstrous wrote:Regarding whether Himmler confessed, the speech stated that "I want to mention another very difficult matter here before you in all frankness. Among ourselves, it ought to be spoken of quite openly for once; yet we shall never speak of it in public." So this is supposedly a truly exceptional and unique event.
It is not a "confession," which is what you asked about.
Monstrous wrote:Very strange that it would placed in the middle of a long speech and only with a few brief and unclear sentences. Probably would have been utterly incomprehensible and unclear to a SS-officer or Gauleiter from, say, the western parts of Germany who had never been informed of a genocide before this supposedly unique event.
Because it was an aspect of the war and, just as he said, "another very difficult matter" he needed to deal with in the terms I've already explained. This was a time of serious military reversals for the Germans, and Himmler was dealing with the extermination of the Jews in that context. The speech on the 4th was not to random SS officers and Gauleiter but to an audience composed mainly of very high ranking SS officers (33 Obergruppenführers, 51 Gruppenführers and eight Brigadeführers, according to Wikipedia). (It was the speech on the 6th for which about 60 Reichsleiter and Gauleiter were in attendance; this was the speech in which Himmler explained why the children, too.) In any event, his intent was in part to clarify expectations - among leaders who undoubtedly had various degrees of knowledge already, in part to ensure unity of purpose and will, in part to assure the leaders there'd be no halfway measures, in part to put the leadership "on the record" - not to give a detailed accounting. After all, by late 1943, several million Jews had been involved in the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people. Agencies and officials across many institutions - police, military, Foreign Office, WVHA, occupation authorities had been involved in this evacuation/extermination.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the party program, the speech stated "says every Party comrade, "that's quite clear, it's in our programme: elimination of the Jews". So the speech is clearly talking about the Party programme. If arguing that the speech is talking about a genocide, then the implication is Himmler is stating that genocide was part of the Party programme (which is incorrect).
No, that's not clear at all. The word Programm can be translated, according to German-English dictionaries, as "program" or "plan" or "scheme"; it doesn't clearly refer to the capital P NSDAP Program. But so what? By 1943, Hitler's "prophecy" wasn't exactly a secret, was it? He's talking about the man in the street and the need to keep to the faith.
Monstrous wrote:Regarding the reactions of Frank and von dem Bach, are you referring to something said during the Nuremberg trials? All Nuremberg "confessions" are uninteresting considering the torture and threats thereof, threats of deprotation of family members to the Soviet Union, and so on.
Was Speer also threatened and tortured when he said he had in fact heard the speech? IIRC parts of the speech not related to the so-called evacuation of the Jews were played at Nuremberg.

One does need to treat the postwar statements of the gentlemen who testified about the speech - and there were more than those whom Jeff mentioned - with care, as they had reasons to minimize what they knew beforehand and so on.

I am not sure what torture you are referring to given the range of people testifying about the speech. Would you be so kind as to go through the list of people who spoke about the speeches after the war and explain their torture, how the torture was used, of what it consisted, and how it elicited specific testimony?

The pre-Nuremberg references that I referred to came from Goebbels and Engel, who was IIRC at the speech on the 6th.
Monstrous wrote:Goebbels's diary and audio recording dealt with above.
Indeed, your questions were dealt with above.

So, are you going to tell us your view of the speeches?
I agree with Irving that if the critical parts of a text are retyped, then the text should be viewed with suspicion and very possible having been deliberately tampered with.

There is no indication that the audience of the Posen speeches were limited to only individuals being involved in the killings in Poland/the Soviet Union. As such, the audience would have included individuals who would have required a longer explanation than the ones supposedly given by Himmler in the speeches. In short, Himmler's speech presumes that the audience is already very well-informed before the speeches, presumably by mind-reading/telepathy, or some similar method....

I think we simply have to disagree on the Party program. Most neutral readers will most likely have to conclude that if Himmler was talking about a Jewish genocide in the speech, then he was also stating that the NSDAP Party program included a Jewish genocide. Now if Himmler was actually only talking about expulsion, then this fits very well with the program stating that Jews could not be citizens.

Regarding Speer, he obviously lied systematically during the Nuremberg trials and later regardless of which version of the Holocaust is correct, so I do not know why anyone should trust anything he stated. If you are referring to the letter he also stated "Who would believe me that I suppressed this, that it would have been easier to have written all of this in my memoirs?" Assuming that the letter is authentic, this would seem to indicate that Speer late in his life suddenly "unsuppressed" some memory of being present... Garbage.

Regarding the Nuremberg trials, the torture, the fabrications, and the other problems, see for example:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html

Regarding Engel, see no particular reason to believe alleged British intelligence transcripts of bugged conversations between prisoners considering the British intelligence run torture centers in Germany in order to get confessions. Even assuming authenticity, Engel would have difficulty remembering the speech and it would be unclear if he was truthful when making smalltalk. Also, rather unclear if he states that Himmler admitted to the Holocaust or to the killing of partisans/partisan relatives (which other sources already state Himmler stated in speeches).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... n-war.html