Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:26 pm

Denying-History wrote: But its not like our 1942 photographs show us a sign out by the road
Kestenberg was speaking of the gas chamber building, not a sign on the highway. Actually war-time photos do show signs by the road, depending on what you mean by the road. The "warning board" prohibiting entry to the camp show on p 60 (#66) of Dziadosz's book (the sign is next to an SS guard booth - cropped views are shown elsewhere, p 26 of The Prisoners of Majdanek), for example.
Denying-History wrote: Also mind that if the sign was on the door, I am quite sure that we would have seen it in liberation/post-war photographs and reports. Which is the point that I am trying to make.
Not necessarily, especially since the gas chambers by that time hadn't been used for gassing for months.

Look, I doubt these details but . . . another source to examine, which I haven't, is prisoner drawings.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:25 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote: But its not like our 1942 photographs show us a sign out by the road
Kestenberg was speaking of the gas chamber building, not a sign on the highway. Actually war-time photos do show signs by the road, depending on what you mean by the road. The "warning board" prohibiting entry to the camp show on p 60 (#66) of Dziadosz's book (the sign is next to an SS guard booth - cropped views are shown elsewhere, p 26 of The Prisoners of Majdanek), for example.
I am quite sure that Jurek Kerstenberg described seeing a sign from the road that read "gas chamber". Thats the kind of sign I mean.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote: Also mind that if the sign was on the door, I am quite sure that we would have seen it in liberation/post-war photographs and reports. Which is the point that I am trying to make.
Not necessarily, especially since the gas chambers by that time hadn't been used for gassing for months.

Look, I doubt these details but . . . another source to examine, which I haven't, is prisoner drawings.
I have seen a few but they are few and far in between when it comes to being online copies. I have seen one depicting a sign but its not on the gas chamber. Its showing this one.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:39 pm

Denying-History wrote:I am quite sure that Jurek Kerstenberg described seeing a sign from the road that read "gas chamber"...
Yes, he did. And for all we know he might have mixed up "Desinfektion" with such a chamber. Or maybe there was a sign on the (old) "Krematorium". Gas chamber and crematorium are often used interchangeably by survivors...

I mean, apparently there were several signs up. Descriptions, building, block and field numbers. And many of the structures were identical, who knows what was labeled how...
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:05 pm

Denying-History wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote: But its not like our 1942 photographs show us a sign out by the road
Kestenberg was speaking of the gas chamber building, not a sign on the highway. Actually war-time photos do show signs by the road, depending on what you mean by the road. The "warning board" prohibiting entry to the camp show on p 60 (#66) of Dziadosz's book (the sign is next to an SS guard booth - cropped views are shown elsewhere, p 26 of The Prisoners of Majdanek), for example.
I am quite sure that Jurek Kerstenberg described seeing a sign from the road that read "gas chamber". Thats the kind of sign I mean.
Kestenberg:
And the trucks drove in the direction of the gas chamber. Because during the time that I worked there, in Majdanek, we had to . . . when one had to go out from the lager there was a highway. And when one went on the highway . . . we were going to work in columns. We had to go by such a house. It was quite openly written. Outside was written 'Gas Chamber.' Everyone could see.
And he continued, after a "hm" from Boder:
And it was seen that those trucks driving at night went in the direction of the gas chamber with all those . . . all those women and children. Since that time until now we did not have any news from those people. That means that they were surely gassed, or burned. I don't know what the Germans did there.
K. is first describing when work columns went out from the prisoner fields going by "such a house" on which, outside, "was written 'Gas Chamber.'" Then he mentions trucks taking people by the same "gas chamber." The passage is garbled (the ellipses are in the interview and there are other, unrelated problems with it I've not quoted here) but I think it's clear he was talking of people often passing by the gas chambers on their way out of the camp and then in the instance he's describing being taken to the gas chamber, at the same place, not the highway. His recollection is a sign visible to someone not working in that area, I think.
Denying-History wrote:I have seen a few but they are few and far in between when it comes to being online copies.
There are more in printed books and catalogues. None in my possession shows such signs.
Denying-History wrote:I have seen one depicting a sign but its not on the gas chamber. Its showing this one.
That's actually a cropped detail from the photo I mentioned in my post. No mention of gas chambers, but on the highway, I believe.

My main point is this: I think that the two testimonies I know of are mistaken about the sign(s) mentioned, but I am not sure. I don't have enough testimonies in full to be sure others haven't mentioned a sign of some sort. Ditto the artifacts collected at the museum. So I can't entirely rule out the two testimonies.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:42 pm

to keep Majdanek stuff together, link to discussion of Reinartz testimony on gas chambers, given to NKVD
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:56 am

And taken from that^:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:[...]Kranz, p 47, cites the testimony of August Reinartz, an SS orderly, 1946, saying that "people were mass murdered only in one gas chamber which was located in a brick building near the bathhouses. Other chambers were used only for disinfection . . .". Mailänder, p 173, summarizes Reinartz's full, detailed description of the gassing process and notes that Reinartz's statement was originally given to NKVD investigators and was later used in the Düsseldorf Majdanek trial.[..]First, Reinartz told the NKVD that there was one gassing facility, the so-called bunker ("brick building"). Second, on the other side of the coin, Reinartz said that other gassing rooms in the camp (this would include IV, V, and VI, the ones identified by the Commission as homicidal gas chambers) "were used only for disinfection."[...]
is what I was aiming at in a way. Fumigation perhaps making it necessary to post warning signs for personnel. And it occurred to me maybe even on the eastern heater room connected to # 41 and the inner fumigation room. Granted, all speculation on my part, but maybe not all that far-fetched... :pardon:
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:21 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Kestenberg:
And the trucks drove in the direction of the gas chamber. Because during the time that I worked there, in Majdanek, we had to . . . when one had to go out from the lager there was a highway. And when one went on the highway . . . we were going to work in columns. We had to go by such a house. It was quite openly written. Outside was written 'Gas Chamber.' Everyone could see.
And he continued, after a "hm" from Boder:
And it was seen that those trucks driving at night went in the direction of the gas chamber with all those . . . all those women and children. Since that time until now we did not have any news from those people. That means that they were surely gassed, or burned. I don't know what the Germans did there.
K. is first describing when work columns went out from the prisoner fields going by "such a house" on which, outside, "was written 'Gas Chamber.'" Then he mentions trucks taking people by the same "gas chamber." The passage is garbled (the ellipses are in the interview and there are other, unrelated problems with it I've not quoted here) but I think it's clear he was talking of people often passing by the gas chambers on their way out of the camp and then in the instance he's describing being taken to the gas chamber, at the same place, not the highway. His recollection is a sign visible to someone not working in that area, I think.
Maybe, its sort of hard to know due to the testimony being sort of jumbled. I thought he was a describing a sign on the eastern wall of the Bunker or the Canopy.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I have seen a few but they are few and far in between when it comes to being online copies.
There are more in printed books and catalogues. None in my possession shows such signs.
I have some which are available online, but nothing really that helpful for this.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I have seen one depicting a sign but its not on the gas chamber. Its showing this one.
That's actually a cropped detail from the photo I mentioned in my post. No mention of gas chambers, but on the highway, I believe.

My main point is this: I think that the two testimonies I know of are mistaken about the sign(s) mentioned, but I am not sure. I don't have enough testimonies in full to be sure others haven't mentioned a sign of some sort. Ditto the artifacts collected at the museum. So I can't entirely rule out the two testimonies.
It could just simply be miss-identification of the sign.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:49 pm

David's main man Merlin is really a nutter (did David forget his forum password, btw?). Here Merlin writes a stunningly bizarre letter to the USHMM. In the name of free inquiry and evidence-based debate ("honest research and open discussion"), he whines to the USHMM that the museum website takes issue with Kranz's estimated death toll for Majdanek. And advises the USHMM to settle on a supposed new orthodoxy represented by, says Merlin, "Graff, Kranz, and Mattagno," confirming Hilberg's earlier estimate.

This protest made by Merlin is quite odd: he ignores the very important USHMM encyclopedia entry in favor of the website - presumably taking the "if it's not online, it doesn't exist" pov, and he urges a closure of debate on the question of the death toll at Majdanek so that an orthodoxy might be declared - and publications dragooned into adhering to it.This latter angle is odd, too, because Jurgen Graf himself has written, in Incoherent History (and elsewhere), that "Kranz’s figure is still too high by at least 28,000 deaths." An odd orthodoxy Merlin aims for . . . in which its supposed proponents disagree . . .

The core disagreement here - between the USHMM and Kranz - was discussed in this thread as long ago as December 2014 in a post that noted:
“The SS destroyed most of Majdanek’s records before evacuating the camp,” meaning that caution must be used for estimates regarding arrivals, transfer, deaths. USHMM estimates deaths between 80,000 and 110,000 [as we know, Kranz, who has done a detailed study, supports the lower figure]
As we can see, the Museum gave an explanation for part of the reason why its researchers didn't settle on Kranz's estimate. One point of divergence is in fact the number of Jews deported to Majdanek - Kranz stating 74,000 whilst the USHMM estimates "between 74,000 and 90,000." The USHMM estimates a higher number of prisoners passing through the camp than does Kranz.

Merlin also chides, in the name of the new orthodoxy he's promoting, the Museum for focusing on a different issue to his: the USHMM examines Majdanek and subcamps (presumably KL Warschau, DAW camp, Blizyn, Arbeitzlager Radom, Bekleidungswerke Lublin, and some smaller workplaces), not only Majdanek. But Merlin wants his iconic number, apparently 78,000 deaths, and won't accept that different scholars/publications have differing viewpoints, methodologies, priorities - and even disagreements.

In offering his new estimate, Kranz wrote, in a revisionist spirit, that - because of imprecision about the number of victims in the Erntefest operation, the number of deaths of Jewish prisoners in the camp including in the gas chambers, and the fact that not all Jews brought to the camp were registered (the number can only be assembled by comparing documentation on various ghettos and other places, especially in Lublin area, with camp population reports, the Korherr report, and other records) - we can estimate only "an approximate number of Jewish prisoners who died or were murdered at KL Lublin." The Majdanek Museum directors have been quoted as accepting Kranz's estimate "with a certain caution," although in recent years the website has used Kranz's figures, rounding to 80,000 total deaths and 60,000 Jews perishing in the camp.

Note too that the USHMM's researchers dispute the Majdanek staff's estimate of gassing victims, and mine too, which are far lower than the USHMM estimate. I've not determined why the USHMM has such a high estimate for this.

Another weird aspect of Merlin's urgent protest, which was written 2 September 2016, is that the USHMM estimates were published in 2009, about seven years ago!

(thanks to a colleague for pointing out Merlin's letter and its amusing, and ill-informed, orthography)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:15 pm

I guess Merlin believes that everyone should now stop and settle on exact numbers. That's it, no more research, ever.

I guess that should hold true for denier researchers. Everyone stop, put your pencils down, test is over. Too bad because I so looked forward to "revisionist" historians continuing their never ending search for the "deported" Jews in Russia. They aren't there, of course, but at least it would give them something to do.

I love the various letters that deniers write to the USHMM. I wonder if the curators gather once a week to read them and laugh their #%!es off.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:28 pm

LOL - and all under the rubric of opposing consensus, orthodoxy, a standard history! What a bunch of effing nitwits. Their games are transparent.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:55 pm

On David's latest about Majdanek:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David's linking to Eric Hunt's stunningly bizarre (even for Hunt) video on Denial, which segues to a prolonged recycling of his previous Majdanek claims, is just pathetic. Unfortunately for David, it reminds us that he hightailed it out of the forum around the time he made this post, when his own confused claims about the Majdanek camp came undone and before it was shown that Rabbit's "contribution," which David had praised, was irretrievably botched (e.g., Miedzyrzec). David's a coward and he thinks we have short memories. Who thinks he will have the guts to face the music on Majdanek?
Where we left off was when David's claims about how prisoners were brought to the camp were shown to be fallacious - and we were still waiting for David to reply to questions I asked him about the processing of arriving prisoners.

To remind David - and here's where months ago already D-H got tired of David's stalling and obfuscations (swearing was involved):

1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated? (This was both Hunt's claim and what The Lesser Bunny said in his dumb video. I helped David with this one here.)

2. Why didn’t the narrator (that is, TLB) mention the undressing rooms to the south of the showers listed for both barracks in the Polish-Soviet commission report – was this “oversight” because the southern location of the undressing rooms undermines his claim that the prisoners must have undressed to the north of the showers?

3. How does the position of the delousing baths within the shower room prove which way prisoners passed through the barrack? (TLB claimed that it did so.)

4. In what way does a photo from summer 1942 provide evidence for how the bathhouse and bunker were used starting around October 1942? Why is the protruding “vestibule” discovered by the narrator not described in either the text or on the diagrams of the Polish-Soviet Commission report (August 1944, as reproduced in Graf & Mattogno)? (hint for David: Miedzyrzec)

And lookie here, just one of the times when I summarized what David had refused to reply to.

Open invitation to David to return to this thread and clean up the mess he (and The Lesser Bunny) have made of all this.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:12 pm

David is a big coward. A chicken. Instead of answering pointed questions about his Majdanek claims, and dealing with all the counter-evidence to them posted in this thread, he's continued to drop drive-by slogans in other threads.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:24 pm

Posting this for visual reference. It is the control room for bottled gas at the time of liberation or shortly after.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:08 am

David’s been posting some whoppers about Majdanek from the safety of a thread on Hollywood. First, here are two summary posts describing where David left off: . . . here again, in condensed form, are the questions about proof for "wrongway gas chambers" which David refuses to answer . . . and Last, I’d like to go back through the five things I asked David to explain for us last August (David dodged these questions so relentlessly that I had to repeat them several times just to keep track of things!).

And here are David’s recent inanities with links to where they've previously been dealt with in this thread.

1. First, David lies about the explanations provided in this thread for incoming prisoner processing at Majdanek:
David wrote:. . . your brilliant theory that the Germans used secret "code words" for entrance and exit! :lol: :lol:
A post that focuses on the March 1942 plans vs what was built ("In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated?" - showing the plan from March 1942 for barrack no. 42 and the postwar Polish-Soviet Commission schematic for no. 41.)

"Can David show how the bathhouse no. 41 was "built according to plans"? Which plans? How does the bathhouse as discovered and described in 1944 and what is extant today conform to the plans which David had in mind?"

Information on the arrival-processing of incoming prisoners, without "codes words," sorry David:

Where TLB screwed up with a photo from "Miedzyrzec Podlaski, Poland, 26/05/1943, German policemen conducting searches on Jews" and David fell for it

"Hunt and BRoI have simply left out two key elements of the entry and processing of arriving prisoners – the Effektenkammer, south of the bathhouses, and, as we saw above, the Rosengarten, to their west": Gröner, Donat, Stanisławski, Kwiatkowski, unnamed Slovakian Jew, Ruppert, Psiuk, Marszałek testimonies, with map summarizing details provided

"There is nothing in the layout of the shower room that implies which way the prisoners entered from, despite BRoI’s claim . . .": Pawlowska, Skoraczynski, Marszałek, Stanisławski testimonies - with schematic

further testimonies undermining the "wrongway" claims of Hunt, TLB, and David and providing more information on arrivals, selections, etc: Sobol, Skoraczyński, Kosibowicz, Sztaba, Gryta, Piwińska, Sztrygler testimonies

2. In this post, David lied
David wrote:. . . Putting on your tinfoil hat and screaming out theories claiming people walked past the fumigation rooms and in circles in the Camp is not the same as showing the documents, plans, and existing buildings. . . .
photographs showing how prisoners generally entered Majdanek - neither the way Hunt and TLB claim nor the way David claims (aerial photo with typical route to the bathhouses marked)

comparison of Hunt's claims about entry to the camp to evidence about arrival - this post also covers ground in point #3 below

3. Finally, David got something mostly right:
David wrote:. . . you were insisting that all the arriving detainees had to walk along the main Lublin-Chelm highway to get into the Camp.
a map of the Majdanek camp showing key prisoner-arrival features

"most transports arriving at the Old Airfield, from the northeast as you've been shown repeatedly"

"The route prisoners usually took to the Majdanek camp when they were removed from arriving transports was as follows: the prisoners had arrived at the Flugplatz and disembarked on the ramp there; they were marched under SS guard from the "old airfield" along the Lublin-Zamosc-Chelm highway to the main gate of the Majdanek camp, where they turned right and followed the "black road" to the entrance to the economics sector, the entrance just to the east of the bathhouses and gas chambers; it was here that they entered into the inner part of the camp and were processed, sometimes in the Effektenkammer, sometimes in the area in front of (south of) the bathhouses or in the Rosengarten just west of barrack no. 42, or even inside one of the bathhouses."

". . . this post explains the main route by which prisoners entered Majdanek and relates to the map of the camp . . .": material from Wiśnioch and Kranz; testimonies given by Tcharnabroda and Donat
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:10 am

:hmm: And now it looks he rather takes a whiff of Zyklon-B than breathing some life into his prior assertions here. :-P
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:30 am

[quote="Statistical Mechanic"]On David's latest about Majdanek: [quote="Statistical Mechanic"]
Where we left off was when David's claims about how prisoners were brought to the camp were shown to be fallacious - and we were still waiting for David to reply to questions I asked him about the processing of arriving prisoners. Windbag- The discussion was
whether arriving detainees would have/could have entered the greater Camp grounds at an entrance on the Lublin-Chelm highway or at different entrances. Since the arriving prisoners usually walked to the camp from the train station that would seem logical.
But if you imagine all the arriving inmates walking along the main public highway, fine. Stupid but fine.



To remind David - and here's where months ago already D-H got tired of David's stalling and obfuscations (swearing was involved):

1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated? (This was both Hunt's claim and what The Lesser Bunny said in his dumb video. I helped David with this one here.)
You missed the obvious answer. First the buildings were built according to the plan.
The plans were for a specific use...registration of arriving prisoners, undressing them, showering them, fumigating their clothes, redressing them and admitting them into the camp.

If the Plans were from March 1942, then the planned use continued through construction.
Given that the bidding and construction stage of building Krema II at Birkenau was almost a year, you have some tap-dancing to do.

You're are slithery on the date "fall 1942."
Care to give a month, week, or day you claim gassings of humans started at the Showers?



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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:36 am

David, before I reply, please, please learn to use the quotation function. It is very hard to read and reply when you post such a mish-mash.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:41 am

David wrote:...The discussion was
whether arriving detainees would have/could have entered the greater Camp grounds at an entrance on the Lublin-Chelm highway or at different entrances. Since the arriving prisoners usually walked to the camp from the train station that would seem logical.
(Partially my emphasis)

What would seem logical and which train station?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:52 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
David wrote:...The discussion was
whether arriving detainees would have/could have entered the greater Camp grounds at an entrance on the Lublin-Chelm highway or at different entrances. Since the arriving prisoners usually walked to the camp from the train station that would seem logical.
(Partially my emphasis)

What would seem logical and which train station?
Is it time to get the map out again?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:02 am

Whut?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:17 am

David wrote:Windbag-
The discussion covers a lot of testimonies and some complex details. I will write posts that are as long as they need to be to provide the necessary information.
David wrote:The discussion was whether arriving detainees would have/could have entered the greater Camp grounds at an entrance on the Lublin-Chelm highway or at different entrances. Since the arriving prisoners usually walked to the camp from the train station that would seem logical.
What you've posted here is gibberish. You seem to be floundering - maybe you should have kept away?

Also, you see, if you don't read what was posted, you will write silly things. I posted testimonies, marked maps, aerial photos, reports. You just posted incomprehensbile shite.

So here we go again: Some transports, mostly in the early days of Majdanek's history, came to the Lublin train station. But not many. By far most transports bringing prisoners to the camp arrived at the Old Airfield and the prisoners were marched to the camp along the Lublin-Zamosc-Chelm highway to the main gate, then along the black road to the business sector, as shown in my posts. You tried to have the prisoners coming from another vague area to the west. Fail.
David wrote:But if you imagine all the arriving inmates walking along the main public highway, fine. Stupid but fine.
Tell us what the evidence shows, David. And show us what is wrong with the evidence I've used in my posts.
David wrote:You missed the obvious answer. First the buildings were built according to the plan.
Nope, I didn't miss anything. But you missed two important points: first, buildings 41 and 42 as they were constructed do not match - they were not both built according to the plan from March 1942; second, you missed the time line, which included changes to the complex and led to changes in the construction planned.

Can you show us evidence for what you now claim - that the buildings were both built according to the plan? I posted the March 1942 plan and the postwar schematic to help you with this question. Months ago. Please, now show us how both buildings were built according to plan - and, while you're at it, how the bathhouse-bunker complex matches an original plan.
David wrote:The plans were for a specific use...registration of arriving prisoners, undressing them, showering them, fumigating their clothes, redressing them and admitting them into the camp.
First, prisoners were not registered in the bathhouses. This was done, typically, as was surrender of valuables, in the Effektenkammer. Prisoners who were not registered into the camp also generally went to the Effektenkammer (before going to the bathhouses or Rosengarten or to a temporary holding area). This use of the Effektenkammer was typical of the KLs. You also failed to mention the role of the Rosengarten and temporary holding areas. And you forget the disinfection baths.

Second, you didn't mention disinfestation chambers at other locations in Majdanek, which need to be taken into account.

Third, that prisoners were often processed through the Effektenkammer and bathhouses doesn't mean that those facilities were used only for this. E.g., Polish and other non-Jewish prisoners were processed differently from Jewish prisoners. Also, on some occasions prisoners from the camp were showered (this was not often by any means) in the bathhouses.

Fourth, so {!#%@} what? Nothing you have posted makes one whit of difference to how the buildings were eventually built out and used. That is what Hunt and TLB are wrong about. Your saying that the buildings were used for showering, fumigation, and changing doesn't tell us how people were moved into and out of the bathhouses. Most testimonies that describe a direction of flow for arriving prisoners describe entry to the bathhouses from the south, the opposite of what you say.
David wrote:If the Plans were from March 1942, then the planned use continued through construction.
Prove it. As I asked you to do above.
David wrote:Given that the bidding and construction stage of building Krema II at Birkenau was almost a year, you have some tap-dancing to do.
I'm aware of the construction time line for the bathhouses and bunker at Majdanek. Are you? I've posted about it several times. And, no, the bathhouse-bunker complex was not like the Birkenau crematoria and never handled numbers remotely approaching those of Birkenau.
David wrote:You're are slithery on the date "fall 1942."
Care to give a month, week, or day you claim gassings of humans started at the Showers?
David, here are links to previous posts on this question: here, here, here - and dozens more I am not going to search for. (There are several references to these dates in the links in my post above.) Do you have reading comprehension problems?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:22 am

David, one more little thing: you seem really confused about Majdanek camp. Maybe it's time for you to make a "return" trip there? - best, SM
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:32 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Whut?
Make him draw the route he constantly refused to draw.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:36 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Whut?
Make him draw the route he constantly refused to draw.
Exactly.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:38 am

Denying-History wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Whut?
Make him draw the route he constantly refused to draw.
Yay, the circling maze! Yes, David. Do it! :clapping:





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.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:48 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:On David's latest about Majdanek:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: Where we left off was when David's claims about how prisoners were brought to the camp were shown to be fallacious - and we were still waiting for David to reply to questions I asked him about the processing of arriving prisoners. Windbag- The discussion was
whether arriving detainees would have/could have entered the greater Camp grounds at an entrance on the Lublin-Chelm highway or at different entrances. Since the arriving prisoners usually walked to the camp from the train station that would seem logical.
But if you imagine all the arriving inmates walking along the main public highway, fine. Stupid but fine.



To remind David - and here's where months ago already D-H got tired of David's stalling and obfuscations (swearing was involved):

1. In what way does a plan from March 1942 prove how the bathhouses were used from fall 1942 to fall 1943 – after the bunker and gas chambers were added and the purpose of the facility was updated? (This was both Hunt's claim and what The Lesser Bunny said in his dumb video. I helped David with this one here.)
You missed the obvious answer. First the buildings were built according to the plan.
The plans were for a specific use...registration of arriving prisoners, undressing them, showering them, fumigating their clothes, redressing them and admitting them into the camp.

If the Plans were from March 1942, then the planned use continued through construction.
Given that the bidding and construction stage of building Krema II at Birkenau was almost a year, you have some tap-dancing to do.

You're are slithery on the date "fall 1942."
Care to give a month, week, or day you claim gassings of humans started at the Showers?


Draw the route the prisoners marched David.

Image

Here is a hint though, maybe you should start at the old airport and go down the highway instead of listening to Erics claim that prisoners got off at Lublin station.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:49 am

And then David needs to show the sources and evidence that he thinks prove us wrong about the route we've spelled out. :)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:41 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David, before I reply, please, please learn to use the quotation function. It is very hard to read and reply when you post such a mish-mash.
You're full of little demands, SM. I've come back to see what you big points are
regarding Building 41 and addressed your first question....
1. The plans of Building show a very specific use building with a specific floor plan and logical path of
travel through the building. (As Mr. Hunt shows in his latest video)
2. The building was built according to plans.

So the question is simple, There is no indication of change of use during construction of Building 41.

A guess of an eight month construction project would put No Change of Use out to November 1942.




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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:57 am

Denying-History wrote:
Draw the route the prisoners marched David.

Image

Here is a hint though, maybe you should start at the old airport and go down the highway instead of listening to Erics claim that prisoners got off at Lublin station.

It was the Majdanek Museum that said that a large percentage of arriving prisoners
got off at the train station. SM is now admitting that some inmates did arrive in the Central train station.

Can you mark the location of the airfield so that we can understand how far you think
the victims had to walk?

Here is a quote about the secrecy of the "gas chamber."

The gas chambers are located within sight of the main road that goes past the camp. The gas chamber building is barrack Number 41 which is shown in the photo above. A sign on the building says "Bad und Desinfektion" (Bath and Disinfection), which the Museum guidebook says was "to lull the vigilance of those condemned to death." There are actually two buildings near the entrance to the camp where Zyklon-B was used. Only the building used for gassing people with Zyklon-B was shown on the tour; the other one is barrack Number 42 which was used for delousing clothing with the same Zyklon-B when the camp was in operation. Barrack Number 42 is off limits to visitors.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:58 am

David wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
Draw the route the prisoners marched David.

Image

Here is a hint though, maybe you should start at the old airport and go down the highway instead of listening to Erics claim that prisoners got off at Lublin station.

It was the Majdanek Museum that said that a large percentage of arriving prisoners
got off at the train station. SM is now admitting that some inmates did arrive in the Central train station.

Can you mark the location of the airfield so that we can understand how far you think
the victims had to walk?

Here is a quote about the secrecy of the "gas chamber."

The gas chambers are located within sight of the main road that goes past the camp. The gas chamber building is barrack Number 41 which is shown in the photo above. A sign on the building says "Bad und Desinfektion" (Bath and Disinfection), which the Museum guidebook says was "to lull the vigilance of those condemned to death." There are actually two buildings near the entrance to the camp where Zyklon-B was used. Only the building used for gassing people with Zyklon-B was shown on the tour; the other one is barrack Number 42 which was used for delousing clothing with the same Zyklon-B when the camp was in operation. Barrack Number 42 is off limits to visitors.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... nek02.html


Where exactly does the museum say it. Directed me to the place where they say it David.

http://www.majdanek.eu/

Don't make up crap ether, you know exactly where the "old airfield" is. Right below Majdanek Tatarski.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... field.html

They would get off from that point and March down the highway to the enterance to Majdanek.

Don't bring up the gas chambers right now. They are irrelevant. We are first going to establish the route.

Now draw the route you believe that the prisoners walked.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:08 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David, before I reply, please, please learn to use the quotation function. It is very hard to read and reply when you post such a mish-mash.
You're full of little demands, SM.
Well, if you want to be taken seriously . . . is this your way of telling us you have no answers to important questions? But, really, after all these years, that you can't master a basic function of the forum is, well, interesting.
David wrote:I've come back to see what you big points are regarding Building 41 and addressed your first question....
1. The plans of Building show a very specific use building with a specific floor plan and logical path of travel through the building. (As Mr. Hunt shows in his latest video)
But according to Graf & Mattogno, the plan from March 1942 isn't for building 41 at all. It's for what later was to become building 42:
This was the original plan of March 23, 1942, for the delousing facility intended to be established outside the camp. As far as one can tell from looking in through the windows of this building, which is off-limits to visitors, this plan was realized, with a few modifications, in Barrack 42 (Building XII). In this barrack one can see the Boiler Room333 as well as a cement-lined chamber which seem much larger than those sketched on the aforementioned plan.

According to a report of the Central Construction Office, Building XII was 40% complete on July 1, 1942. . . .
(p 131)

Answer what I asked you and show your evidence: Were the two bathhouses built according to the March 1942 plan? Do they match one another?
David wrote:2. The building was built according to plans.
You don't know what you're talking about. To remind you:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:. . . Can you post a print of the "starting point plan of March 1942" that you want to discuss?
That would be great.
. . . David, as you know, we're here to help. But only to a point. Since you've visited the Majdanek camp, read Graf & Mattogno, read this thread in its entirety, and thought this all out, this should be easy for you. No need for BRoI to make another crappy video to help you out, no need to bring Nessie in. I think you can do it. Think about the reply above and what you missed in your first try to answer questions 1-2.

Think hard. Then look at these three items below.

First look at this. It's the March 1942 blueprint for barrack no. 42

Image

And here is the schematic of the north end of barrack no. 41 drawn by experts from the Polish-Soviet Commission in 1944:

Image

Now this next bit will require some reading, sorry. But these are excerpts from the 1944 report of the Polish-Soviet Commission, reprinted on pp 122-123 of the Graf & Mattogno book on Majdanek, giving the expert description of barrack no. 41.

Image

Image

I'll save you the trouble of blabbing about the outrage of the identification of gas chamber IV - that's not what I'm asking you about. What I want to know is whether the March 1942 blueprint shows what was built in summer-fall 1942 and described by the expert report in 1944?

And also what was in place in 1944 in terms of rooms and layout in barrack no. 41? And how does that compare to the March blueprint for no. 42?

Once you've got this under your belt, we can move on to how Black Rabbit played games in his video with the "Undressing room," which was the point of question 2. You have to understand the buildings and documents to be able to see the game Rabbit tried. So baby steps, David, baby steps.
There's also the issue of how what was built was used, and the testimonies that contradict what you say. You will have to deal with these at some point.
David wrote:So the question is simple, There is no indication of change of use during construction of Building 41.
See above. You're making random noises in hopes of covering up your ignorance and confusion. The March plan was for building 42, not 41, so you are really just posting gibberish.
David wrote:A guess of an eight month construction project would put No Change of Use out to November 1942.
But we have better than "a guess": we have construction documents, cited by Graf & Mattogno in fact; a postwar schematic; and testimonies - all of which contradicts Hunt's claims and your increasingly lame defense of Hunt.

My suggestion is that you sit yourself down, make yourself a very strong pot of coffee, and read the thread through from where you left off.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:31 am

David wrote: It was the Majdanek Museum that said that a large percentage of arriving prisoners got off at the train station. SM is now admitting that some inmates did arrive in the Central train station.
Not true that I am "admitting" something "now"; the testimonies and the secondary literature say what I have written. You tried to make out that most of the transports came to the Lublin train station - they didn't. Months ago, for example, I wrote,
with most transports arriving at the Old Airfield, from the northeast as you've been shown repeatedly. You tried to screw with the orientation of Kranz's photo to support your Single Entrance Theory - you told a blatant and demonstrable lie, saying that it was a view looking to the east. And you tried to get readers to think that the Lublin RR station, not the ramp at the Old Airfield, was the main transport depot, also to support your idiotic argument.
I've made numerous other posts like the one quoted here.

You are now asked to "mark the location of the airfield so that we can understand how far you think the victims had to walk." You reply
David wrote:Here is a quote about the secrecy of the "gas chamber."
This is a non sequitur. Your reply has nothing to do with the question you were asked.

Further, let's look at what you've quoted:
The gas chambers are located within sight of the main road that goes past the camp. The gas chamber building is barrack Number 41 which is shown in the photo above.
This is not correct. The gas chamber building is just north of building no. 41 under the canopy roof. Building 41 is the eastern lying bathhouse.
David wrote:A sign on the building says "Bad und Desinfektion" (Bath and Disinfection), which the Museum guidebook says was "to lull the vigilance of those condemned to death." There are actually two buildings near the entrance to the camp where Zyklon-B was used. Only the building used for gassing people with Zyklon-B was shown on the tour; the other one is barrack Number 42 which was used for delousing clothing with the same Zyklon-B when the camp was in operation. Barrack Number 42 is off limits to visitors.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... nek02.html
More nonsense. Gassing of prisoners was mostly by CO but also with Zyklon B - and it occurred in the bunker, not the barracks numbered 41 and 42.

Please re-read Denying-History's request and stop repeating yourself about extraneous points. Mark the route on a camp map showing the route you believe was taken by most groups of prisoners arriving at the camp.

Once we've seen what you come up with, we can talk about what evidence you have for this.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:36 am

David, as you're struggling with the simplest facts about the layout of Majdanek, here is a Google Maps aerial view marked to remind you of what's what:

Image

G = gas chambers (that is, the bunker north of barrack 41), 41 and 41 are the bathhouses, R = Rosengarten, and 43 and 44 are the Effektenkammer buildings.

You are making a worse mess of this for yourself than you began with - and where you began was pretty well messed up.

This marked view was posted in the thread months ago. Again, I suggest you learn about Majdanek before making claims about the camp. You are only embarrassing yourself and "revisionism."
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:07 pm

Denying-History wrote:Where exactly does the museum say it. Directed me to the place where they say it David.

http://www.majdanek.eu/
I will give David some help here: In a 2014 guide book to the camp and museum, published by the museum, Beata Siwek-Ciupak writes that prisoners
were usually brought in freight trains. . . . The trains stopped about a kilometer and a half to the west of the camp, on a railroad siding on the grounds of the SS Fur and Garment Works on Wronska Street. From there, in ranks of five, closely surrounded by SS men and Order Police, they walked in a column to the camp. Smaller transports, mostly from the Lublin District, arrived in trucks.
(p 17) The 2015 museum publication, The Prisoners of Majdanek, gives a bit more detailed explanation:
Because Majdanek had no direct railway connection, the prisoners were initially brought to the Lublin station, and later to the railway siding on the premises of the Clothing Works in Wrońska Street. From there, arranged in columns, escorted by the SS and police, they were hereded to KL Lublin. . . .
(p 25) Anyone besides David reading this thread will realize that this procedure has already been described in the thread, most recently yesterday.
Denying-History wrote:Don't bring up the gas chambers right now. They are irrelevant. We are first going to establish the route.
Exactly, baby steps for David on account of his stunning combination of ignorance and dishonesty.
Denying-History wrote:Now draw the route you believe that the prisoners walked.
He really, really doesn't want to have to do this! LOL.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:24 pm

And David posts some gnomic versifying on barrack 41:
David wrote:*SM, timing is important in understanding history. You Believers are bad at it, or more correctly, try and ignore it.
An example the history of the Barrack No. 41, at Majdanek
What does David, who has barrack 41 and the bunker confused, and who has barrack 41 and barrack 42 confused, mean by these supposed words of wisdom? Does David himself even know?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Denying-History wrote:Where exactly does the museum say it. Directed me to the place where they say it David.

http://www.majdanek.eu/
I will give David some help here: In a 2014 guide book to the camp and museum, published by the museum, Beata Siwek-Ciupak writes that prisoners
were usually brought in freight trains. . . . The trains stopped about a kilometer and a half to the west of the camp, on a railroad siding on the grounds of the SS Fur and Garment Works on Wronska Street. From there, in ranks of five, closely surrounded by SS men and Order Police, they walked in a column to the camp. Smaller transports, mostly from the Lublin District, arrived in trucks.
(p 17) The 2015 museum publication, The Prisoners of Majdanek, gives a bit more detailed explanation:
Because Majdanek had no direct railway connection, the prisoners were initially brought to the Lublin station, and later to the railway siding on the premises of the Clothing Works in Wrońska Street. From there, arranged in columns, escorted by the SS and police, they were hereded to KL Lublin. . . .
(p 25) Anyone besides David reading this thread will realize that this procedure has already been described in the thread, most recently yesterday.
Denying-History wrote:Don't bring up the gas chambers right now. They are irrelevant. We are first going to establish the route.
Exactly, baby steps for David on account of his stunning combination of ignorance and dishonesty.
Denying-History wrote:Now draw the route you believe that the prisoners walked.
He really, really doesn't want to have to do this! LOL.
Here is the issue with Davids claim... Wrońska Steet is not along Lublin Station.

They would have to go to to the highway...
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:11 pm

No mystery here. Wrońska Street is where the Flugplatz (Old Airfield) and SS Clothing works were. Already dealt with, by you, here and me here.

And arriving prisoners generally went along the highway, and I've posted testimonies about that.

David is just posting BS at this point. He's not gotten a single point right nor has he made a coherent statement about any of the issues. Embarrassing. Someone should step in and help him before he does more damage.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:38 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:And then David needs to show the sources and evidence that he thinks prove us wrong about the route we've spelled out. :)

You guys are not tracking very well. My comment was that arriving inmates very well may have entered the the larger camp
area from different directions rather than walking along the main Lublim-Chelm highway. For example, the people who arrived at the
central station in Lublin would have come into the large assembly field from the West.

But the idea seems to confuse you Believers and distract from the fact that all arriving prisoners ended up at Building 41 and 42,
the Shower and Disinfection buildings and clothing fumigation building.

You Believers agree on that?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:50 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:And then David needs to show the sources and evidence that he thinks prove us wrong about the route we've spelled out. :)
You guys are not tracking very well.
You seem to be writing about a different camp. This thread is about Majdanek, in Lublin.

Do you have difficulty understanding what D-H asked that you do - simply to show on a map the main route you think prisoners took to the Majdanek camp?

If you were to give D-H the consideration of a clear answer, we could cut down on the length of these posts and your useless questions and "observations."
David wrote:My comment was that arriving inmates very well may have entered the the larger camp area from different directions rather than walking along the main Lublim-Chelm highway.
We're tracking just fine, David. We're asking you to tell us the usual or main route on which prisoners were taken and what evidence you have for whatever route you claim. You're trying to obfuscate and dodge. Simple.
David wrote:For example, the people who arrived at the central station in Lublin would have come into the large assembly field from the West.
Evidence for this? What period of the camp's history? Which gate?

See, we're tracking fine. We just notice that you're blowing smoke.
David wrote:But the idea seems to confuse you Believers and distract from the fact that all arriving prisoners ended up at Building 41 and 42, the Shower and Disinfection buildings . . .

You Believers agree on that?
Not 100%, as I've already posted, and recently, that some prisoners (this was especially true during the time of the Warsaw transports in spring 1943) were taken to holding areas and kept there for days. You've also described the arrival process incorrectly, which I've also explained to you, as you left out the Effektenkammer and Rosengarten. You are also confused about buildings 41, 42, and the bunker.

I've made several long posts on what you now ask and included maps and aerial views showing the route which most prisoners took. If you can't understand what's been posted, this discussion is impossible. But for heaven's sake, stop asking us about what's already been posted in detail and summary form!

There is, of course, no confusion in what any of us has said.

Here's the issue: You tried having prisoners enter only from the west. That's been shot down. So you tried throwing in a bunch of distractors and spouted gibberish. Now you are scrambling and backing up to "the people who arrived at the central station in Lublin" - without . . .

- identifying the route these prisoners took and where they entered the camp
- saying one word about how most prisoners came to Lublin and then to the Majdanek camp
- providing any evidence at all for anything you say

FAIL.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Denying-History
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Denying-History » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:16 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:And then David needs to show the sources and evidence that he thinks prove us wrong about the route we've spelled out. :)

You guys are not tracking very well. My comment was that arriving inmates very well may have entered the the larger camp
area from different directions rather than walking along the main Lublim-Chelm highway. For example, the people who arrived at the
central station in Lublin would have come into the large assembly field from the West.

But the idea seems to confuse you Believers and distract from the fact that all arriving prisoners ended up at Building 41 and 42,
the Shower and Disinfection buildings and clothing fumigation building.

You Believers agree on that?
You again are saying they entered by marching people though the city? Despite the fact that this would only prove to be evidence for a southern enterance considering that would be where these people were guided.

Eric Hunt doesn't claim this route and mind it makes no sense to March them through the city. You need to prove they entered from this side.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies