Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:32 am

Not sure, Mailänder's not said so (I'm about 2/3 of the way through), and I just don't have a good enough memory to recall that from the Auschwitz camp history, van Pelt, or the USHMM Anatomy book - or anything else. Is there a source you know for that?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:22 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Not sure, Mailänder's not said so (I'm about 2/3 of the way through), and I just don't have a good enough memory to recall that from the Auschwitz camp history, van Pelt, or the USHMM Anatomy book - or anything else. Is there a source you know for that?
I read that in connection with the Sonderkommando revolt. SKs being transferred to Majdanek for destruction and Soviet POWs who worked the crematorium there transported to Birkenau. I can't find my source right now and only came across this so far. Maybe it's related, but I don't know:
2. Telex from concentration camp Auschwitz to the RSHA and police stations of 8th October 1944
[...]
Translation:
"Re: Attempted mass escape of the prisoners employed in the local crematoria.

On 7 October 1944, the details of the local crematoria attempted a mass escape. However, this was defeated by the fast and resolute action of the local guard details. Most of the prisoners were shot on escape. At present, the following prisoners are still missing: Rd. Vh. Bv. prisoner Töpfer, Karl, born 20 February 1912 in Mühlhausen, admitted in 15 April 1944 (Lublin) by criminal police Erfurt, reference number 4944/42 K.Bv. 2.) Russian POW Schenkarenko, Aleksander, born 10 October 1921 in Witowzy, admitted on 15 April 1944 from Stalag?, ID 12766, special characteristic: close-copped hair and tattooed number 11526 on the breast. - transport Jew..."
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... mando.html


ETA From "Sonderkommando Revolt – Auschwitz – Birkenau 7 October 1944" at:
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/sonderevolt.html wrote: Salmen Lewental recalled their courage:
[...]
On the same day fourteen prisoners of the Sonderkommando were arrested and locked in the bunker of Block 11 in the Auschwitz main camp. Among those incarcerated Jankiel Handelsman from Radom, one of the organisers of the uprising, who was sent to Auschwitz – Birkenau on the 4 March 1943 in an RSHA transport from Drancy.

Another prisoner was the Polish Jew Wrobel who received the explosives from the female munitions workers and five Russian Prisoners of War who had arrived from Majdanek on the 16 April 1944.
(Emphasis mine)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:28 am

Duh, in spring '44; I was thinking of during the main life of the camp. This is covered in Czech, Chronicle, p 612, listing prisoners from KL Lublin arriving at Auschwitz 15 April as part of the evacuation of Majdanek in the face of the Red Army's advance and further explaining logistics for these transferees at Auschwitz. Also in Blatman's book on the death marches: The evacuation began 1 April, at which time there were 12,327 prisoners remaining. The first Russians removed were taken on 2 April to Natzweiler-Struthof. The transfer you cited probably involved 1,239 prisoners taken from KL Lublin to Auschwitz on 13 April (mostly women, children, and sick prisoners) – the ones arriving at Auschwitz 15 April; another transport of 1,327 prisoners (similar makeup) left Majdanek on the 16th itself. On the 15th, also, a transport of 600 mostly male prisoners went to Plaszow. According to Mailänder, by the first part of May all but 1,700 prisoners (some Poles who were very sick, Soviet POWs, and a maintenance crew) had been sent to Auschwitz and other camps. The intent, Mailänder says, was to re-establish KL Lublin and bring evacuated guards back (because, you know, the Red Army sweep westward was just a passing thing)! (Mailänder, pp 33-34, Blatman, pp 57-58)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:One argument of Hunt's which Nessie highlighted as compelling concerned the (“impossible”) location of the gas chamber-bathhouse complex relative to the new crematorium, near Field V at KL Lublin:
Nessie wrote:If it was purpose built as a homicidal gas chamber, the layout and location far away from the crematorium is very odd.
So compelling was Hunt's argument to Nessie that, along with some other key points which have been debunked in this thread, Nessie wrote that
Nessie wrote:If I was a court, Hunt has done a defence job that means I would never convict as the prosecution's evidence is so dubious.
I've explained, and cited sources showing, that the gassing of Jewish prisoners was complete by the time new crematorium was completed and put into operation, in fall 1943, making Hunt’s argument absurd.

I also pointed out that open-pit incineration of corpses was the favored method of disposing of dead bodies at KL Lublin during the extermination phase of the camp's existence. In Elissa Mailänder's book, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942- 1944, these is an excellent overview of KL Lublin, its history, functions, role in the occupation of the East and in the genocide, and layout/organization. On p 113 we find a map of the camp with an indication for some "Open-Air Cremation Pits." I am guessing that by this point even Nessie - who acted as mouthpiece here for Hunt's deceptions - can tell us where those pits were located, in relation to the gas chambers. There's no need for me to scan and post the map Mailänder uses as it conforms to other maps readily available to Hunt, and Nessie, had either of them thought to consider this problem for more than a millisecond.
One more time:

Here is Mailänder's summary of the disposal of corpses at Majdanek:

- SS-Oberscharführer Erich Muhsfeldt (also spelled Mussfeldt) headed up burial, cremation and the crematories, assisted by SS-Unterscharführer Robert Seitz; Muhsfeldt came to KL Lublin in November 1941 and was assigned this duty by the commandant

- the two SS men were assisted by teams of SK members, each of which was gassed at some point (testimony of Kapo Ernst Fischer) and replaced with another team (the teams were composed as follows: late 1941 - Polish Jews - Seitz referred to "Polish and Jewish prisoners of war"); as of March 1942 - Russian POWs; then a team of French and German Jews during the height of the exterminations; finally after Aktion Erntefest - Russian POWs again)

- phase I (November 1941 - June 1942): corpses of prisoners who died in the camp or were killed there were buried beyond Field V (testimony of Muhsfeldt and Seitz)

- phase II (June - October 1942): corpses were disposed of in the old crematorium ("built between Fields I and II, situated diagonally across from the bathing barracks and, later, the gas chambers," as I've previously described); the ovens (probably two of them) were oil-fueled and built by Kori company (they were brought from Sachsenhausen); Hauptscharführer Klein instructed Muhsfeldt on operation of the overns; witnesses (survivor Wanda Bialas, for example) describe observing from the nearby laundry corpses arriving at the crematorium on carts, as described upthread; according to Muhsfeldt's testimony, "With round-the-clock operation, each oven could incinerate about 100 bodies per day," not a number that could keep up with the camp's production of dead bodies

- phase III (November 1942 - January 1943): the old crematory was taken off line in November, just as the gassing program began; at this time, Muhsfeldt resorted to burying the corpses of dead/killed inmates again; many bodies were buried in the Krepiecki forest - the SK crew fo these burials numbered about 20

- phase IV (February - late October 1943): Muhsfeldt, as we've discussed elsewhere, went to Auschwitz to learn techniques for open-pit burning of corpses (his trip was on 19 February 1943); Muhsfeldt was subsequently assigned exhumation and burning of the corpses previously buried in Krepiecki forest and behind Field V; the technique, according to testimony from Seitz and Muhsfeldt, utilized grates made of truck chassis placed over pits, methane as a fuel, and grinding of the ashes using an iron plate and iron rammer; the burning of the previously buried corpses was complete by October 1943; Muhsfeldt's crew also burned the bodies of newly killed prisoners in this same manner during this period

- phase IVa (November 1943): starting on 4 November, Muhsfeldt burned the corpses of the 18,000 victims of Aktion Erntefest (Muhsfeldt's testimony gave only 17,000) in a similar manner but with a few nuances - wooden grates were used, grinding of ashes was done by a gasoline-powered mill; the work was checked by SD officials from the Lublin office; Aufseherinnen testimony reported a terrible, strong odor around the camp from this operation

- phase V (January - May 1944): construction of the new crematory was begun already in September 1943 but not completed until January 1944 - again with Kori company building the installation; this crematorium had larger capacity and was coke fueled, a cheaper solution; according to Muhsfeldt's testimony, "We didn't start burning bodies in the new crematorium until January 1944"; in contrast to the erroneous account given by Hunt and echoed by Nessie, this crematorium, located at the far end of the camp from the gas chambers, was never in operation during the gassing program (October 1942 - October 1943) or the mass shootings of Jews culminating in Aktion Erntefest on 3 November 1943 (and is thus irrelevant to discussion of the logistics of the mass annihilation of Jews at KL Lublin)

(Mailänder, pp 176-180)

In this brief update to the thread using the Majdanek museum book on the layout of the camp and Mailänder's study of female guards at Majdanek, every key point I've shared has aligned to my earlier arguments in this thread and/or provided more detail for them. Nothing in this summary supports Nessie's main claims, which were based on Hunt's propaganda movie. In fact, the burden of what is presented, sourced, and supported in the two works exposes the inaccuracies and dishonesty in Hunt's account and Nessie's posts here promoting that account.

Anyone care to explain to me at this point why I should give a {!#%@} about Hunt's piece of crap movie?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:42 am

A: apparently not.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:05 am

LOL someone who doesn't seem to like posting in forums unless they are moderated by his Nazi pals is rattled by this thread - and so he talks to himself in the padded confines of the RODOH loony bin.

About my criticism of Hunt's and Nessie's point about the distance between the crematorium and the gas chambers, he writes,
This of course begs the question. What is Stat Mech's proof that the Nazis never intended to cremate gas chamber victims in the New Crematorium, and were aware that the gassings were to cease prior to the New Crematorium becoming operational?
But this is backwards, as we heard here in this thread:
If it was purpose built as a homicidal gas chamber, the layout and location far away from the crematorium is very odd.
The claim to which I was responding, as this quotation shows, was that the gas chambers were placed too far from the crematorium . . . not that the new crematorium was built in the "wrong" place.

During the period when Jewish prisoners were being gassed at Majdanek, the crematorium stood much closer to the gas chambers - and, even so, corpses were disposed of as described above, not exclusively in the crematorium.

Here, you can see for yourselves where the old and new crematoria and gas chambers lay in relation to one another:

Image

- when the gas chambers were built, the old crematorium had been operating for months at E
- the gas chambers are at 41 (the pavilion roof and bunker are not shown)
- the new crematorium, which didn't open until fall 1943, is at K

In addition, the fact is that the new crematorium, which Nessie, following Hunt, tried making out was where the gassing victims' bodies were burned, was not used to burn the bodies of gassing victims at all. So the "anomaly" of the distance from the bathhouse/bunkercomplex to the new crematorium isn't anomalous at all.

It seems to be irksome that in a thread on Hunt's claims, as defended by Nessie, I replied to Nessie and Hunt - and not to David Cole's questions from two decades ago, which, frankly, I'd forgotten. Yes, Cole asked "what was the wisdom in putting the gas chambers at the opposite end of the camp from the ovens, and at the bottom of the hill (after each gassing, the dead bodies would have to have been dragged up the hill, the length of the entire camp, to the ovens)?" As we've seen, the premise of the question is false. The gas chambers were built across from Middle Field I, where the old crematorium was located. No, the bodies wouldn't have to have been dragged to the new crematorium - it didn't exist yet!

Are we being told that Hunt couldn't figure this error of Cole's out after 20 years?

Poor try to cover up incompetent dishonesty.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:52 am

It seems (judging from post war accounts) that the ovens were erected as KL Lublin's very brief stand-in period of exterminitory activity closed out. This is easily determinable from any level of analysis. It seems that hunt failed to do his homework. Far from someone with the level of expertise attributed to him by Traynor.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:05 am

Jeff_36 wrote:It seems (judging from post war accounts) that the ovens were erected as KL Lublin's very brief stand-in period of exterminitory activity closed out. This is easily determinable from any level of analysis. It seems that hunt failed to do his homework. Far from someone with the level of expertise attributed to him by Traynor.
Muhsfeldt's testimony, for one thing, and (I think covered in Graf & Mattogno) some Kori company records and construction documents/correspondence from 1943.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:26 am

David, let's dig into one of your recent "buckshot" posts by discussing just one of your claims in detail, assuming you're not too chicken to join in.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
6. The Story that there were 6 "gas chambers" at Majdanek. abandoned by everyone with any brains but the Story that there was one "wrongway" gas chamber is still clung to by a few desperate Believers. Thank you Eric Hunt.. . . .
We've been over most of your "story," so I will simply remind everyone of your method: you take a point in contention (e.g., Hilberg disputed the death toll at Majdanek as early as 1961, early news of gas chambers - not steam chambers - circulated), pretend it is some "official story," pretend that Nuremberg enshrined the official story, and then cite either competing views or denier BS to "refute" the non-existent official story. Inane.

Now, you bring up Majdanek, and I notice you've been too gutless to get yourself properly in the discussion in that thread. Poor Nessie, everything borrowed from Hunt has been exposed as a lie or just wrong. It's in that thread - not here. Yes, it is easy for anyone to ignore the evidence and discussion and post stupidities about a supposed wrong-way gas chamber - but real work would be helping Nessie out in the thread. Coward.
Relative to your two claims . . .

First, you seem upset by the very revisionist process you say you use, when it is applied to Majdanek, and you thank Eric Hunt for the revisions made by scholars through the years examining the uses of various facilities at Majdanek. The reexamination of the camp by scholars has led them to conclude, as the museum director Kranz summarized in his book on Jews in the camp, that a single gassing facility was employed there. Well before Eric Hunt was putting lies into videos, the bathhouse-bunker complex had been identified as the site of gassings at Majdanek.

Second, you refer to one gas chamber - unless my understanding is incorrect, there are said to have been three gas chambers in a single building which were most likely the only ones employed - and use the term "wrongway" to describe these.

So, your first point being simply inane, let's discuss your second. What do you mean by "wrongway"? Are you making the same claim Nessie put forward in this thread and for which Nessie could provide no sources? Or are you referring to something else and expect us to read your mind? Explain.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:04 am

crickets?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:13 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: you take a point in contention (e.g., Hilberg disputed the death toll at Majdanek as early as 1961, early news of gas chambers - not steam chambers - circulated), pretend it is some "official story," pretend that Nuremberg enshrined the official story, and then cite either competing views or denier BS to "refute" the non-existent official story. Inane.
First, I think you have the facts significantly skewed. Hilberg listed the number of Jewish dead at Majdanek as 50,000.
I won't try and educate you on WHY your statement is a significant 1. sign of ignorance or 2. of dishonesty.


But to deal with your nattering about the Nuremberg Tribunal as enshrining the official story.
Nuremberg was a propaganda show...much of its value to the producers was in the "evidence" dragged through the courtroom.
It's Judgment was very unclear on what the Tribunal actually found.

But, to put the question to you relative to what is an "official story," what could be more official than a Judgment by
a Court, based on evidence supplied by government prosecutors, and enforced by government agents with 12 feet of rope?
Please explain using the finding of the Tribunal that the Schutzstaffel was a "criminal organization" to illustrate your discussion.

As an aside you seem to be claiming that Hilberg had the power to make official findings?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:40 pm

David wrote:First, I think you have the facts significantly skewed. Hilberg listed the number of Jewish dead at Majdanek as 50,000.
I won't try and educate you on WHY your statement is a significant 1. sign of ignorance or 2. of dishonesty.
I told you this many times, one of these in December 2014. What is your point? You brayed on and on about the "official death toll" of 1.4 million as charged at Nuremberg - I told you that there was no agreement on any such number early on and that as early as 1961 Hilberg (others too) had challenged the higher estimates. What ignorance and what lie are you talking about?

Actually, this is a good time to re-post what I informed you about previously:
Nessie wrote:
. . . the changes are always reductions in the numbers killed . . .
This is simply not true. In 1961, as I've told David over and over, Hilberg already had an estimate of 50,000 at Majdanek. Quoting from a post I made in another thread:
Last, Hilberg's number apparently wasn't in need of too much revision - basically what Kranz did, over fifty years after Hilberg's first edition, was confirm that Hilberg was on track. And show why other numbers were erroneous. With a sound enough argument that no one's yet refuted it. The USHMM Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos entry for Majdanek cites Kranz and gives an estimate in the Hilberg-Scheffler-Kranz range - but, guess what, says too that this number may yet be revised. (Because research and thinking continue . . .)
FYI - Scheffler (1985) 50-60,000, Marszalek (1994) 80,000. As I told David, the numbers have indeed varied - but in the 50,000 to 200,000 range (if we include Lukaswkiewicz's dated 1948 estimate) - without there being an "official" high number consistently ratcheted down.
Do you understand this now?
David wrote:Nuremberg was a propaganda show...much of its value to the producers was in the "evidence" dragged through the courtroom.
It's Judgment was very unclear on what the Tribunal actually found.
But, to put the question to you relative to what is an "official story," what could be more official than a Judgment by
a Court, based on evidence supplied by government prosecutors, and enforced by government agents with 12 feet of rope?
Please explain using the finding of the Tribunal that the Schutzstaffel was a "criminal organization" to illustrate your discussion.

As an aside you seem to be claiming that Hilberg had the power to make official findings?
You're off topic, this thread is about Majdenk and your "wrongway" claim. In the "What do deniers deny"? thread you post about Majdanek, in the "Majdanek" thread you post about what deniers deny and go off on Nuremberg! LOL Please, try to focus.

I asked you here to support a specific claim you made. Apparently you can't and also can't stop your mouth running - and the gibberish flowing - about Nuremberg.

Try again. Majdanek. "Wrongway gas chambers." What on earth are you talking about and what do you have to support whatever it is?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:42 am

David sure doesn't like Hilberg.

Maybe even more so because it stands to reason that he arrived at those numbers much earlier than the date of the publication of the book?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:47 am

Good point, Hilberg finished his dissertation, the basis for his 1961 book, in 1955 . . . the research began in 1948! I've no idea when he worked out the Majdanek death toll but 1961 is too late for sure.

Hey David, "Wrongway" . . . on what basis do you assert this? Please, don't try obfuscating again, just answer the damned question you were asked.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:54 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David wrote:
First, I think you have the facts significantly skewed. Hilberg listed the number of Jewish dead at Majdanek as 50,000.
I won't try and educate you on WHY your statement is a significant 1. sign of ignorance or 2. of dishonesty.


I told you this many times, one of these in December 2014. What is your point?
Everyone knows the Hilberg was only listing Jewish mortality. You are caught twisting the facts, Slithery One.
In fact, Soviet propaganda was that Majdanek was supposed to be "The Auschwitz for Slavs."
here are some quotes pulled off the Web today about the Majdanek death toll-

The death toll at Majdanek is one of the remaining mysteries of the Holocaust. Raul Hilberg, author of The Destruction of the European Jews, estimated the death toll at 50,000, but he was only counting Jewish victims of each death camp in his study. By contrast, the camp's museum, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum agree that over 300,000 people died at Majdanek. The plurality of the inmates were Jews (40 percent), but there were also high numbers of Poles, Soviets, French, and Dutch prisoners, as well as Jews, political prisoners, and criminals from Germany, Austria, and Italy. Most likely, Hilberg's figure is correct, and the remaining 250,000 or more victims of the camp were not Jewish, making it an exception to the other five death camps.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... anek.shtml

And
the Düsseldorf trial of the Majdanek war criminals, the West German government charged the Nazis with the murder of no less than 200,000 people at the camp. Jewish historian Martin Gilbert wrote "Between 300,000 and 350,000 people were murdered here in Majdanek over a period of three years."
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... stics.html

and

The camp opened in September 1941, initially for Soviet prisoners of war, and was liberated by the Soviet Army in July 1944. During this time approximately 360,000 victims died or were murdered at Majdanek, 120,000 of them Jews.
http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks ... ab8K1zJtzA

It is worth noting that Hilberg did get the figures about right in 1961- Graff and Mattogno got them about right in the 1990's-
Karen got them right in 2005. There was nothing new discovered. The evidence was always there. For all researchers...
The fact that "the holocaust explained" website still repeats the 360,000 lie shows the honesty and accuracy of Believers.
So, SM, why didn't YOU correctly present that Hilberg was only bothering to count Jewish deaths?
I would guess that Hilberg had figured out that the death toll at Majdanek was a small percentage of the Nuremberg figures.
Why do you think that he didn't speak up?
And, since you spend so much time trying to defend the "correct" numbers of camp victims, have you bothered to let
theholocaustexplained.org know that they are wildly incorrect? Or do you only care about understating the number of victims?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 12:59 am

I toned it down for those who might want to read it.

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David wrote:
First, I think you have the facts significantly skewed. Hilberg listed the number of Jewish dead at Majdanek as 50,000.
I won't try and educate you on WHY your statement is a significant 1. sign of ignorance or 2. of dishonesty.

I told you this many times, one of these in December 2014. What is your point?
Everyone knows the Hilberg was only listing Jewish mortality. You are caught twisting the facts, Slithery One.
In fact, Soviet propaganda was that Majdanek was supposed to be "The Auschwitz for Slavs."
here are some quotes pulled off the Web today about the Majdanek death toll-

The death toll at Majdanek is one of the remaining mysteries of the Holocaust. Raul Hilberg, author of The Destruction of the European Jews, estimated the death toll at 50,000, but he was only counting Jewish victims of each death camp in his study. By contrast, the camp's museum, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum agree that over 300,000 people died at Majdanek. The plurality of the inmates were Jews (40 percent), but there were also high numbers of Poles, Soviets, French, and Dutch prisoners, as well as Jews, political prisoners, and criminals from Germany, Austria, and Italy. Most likely, Hilberg's figure is correct, and the remaining 250,000 or more victims of the camp were not Jewish, making it an exception to the other five death camps.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... anek.shtml

And
the Düsseldorf trial of the Majdanek war criminals, the West German government charged the Nazis with the murder of no less than 200,000 people at the camp. Jewish historian Martin Gilbert wrote "Between 300,000 and 350,000 people were murdered here in Majdanek over a period of three years."
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... stics.html

and

The camp opened in September 1941, initially for Soviet prisoners of war, and was liberated by the Soviet Army in July 1944. During this time approximately 360,000 victims died or were murdered at Majdanek, 120,000 of them Jews.
http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks ... ab8K1zJtzA

It is worth noting that Hilberg did get the figures about right in 1961- Graff and Mattogno got them about right in the 1990's-
Karen got them right in 2005. There was nothing new discovered. The evidence was always there. For all researchers...
The fact that "the holocaust explained" website still repeats the 360,000 lie shows the honesty and accuracy of Believers.
So, SM, why didn't YOU correctly present that Hilberg was only bothering to count Jewish deaths?
I would guess that Hilberg had figured out that the death toll at Majdanek was a small percentage of the Nuremberg figures.
Why do you think that he didn't speak up?
And, since you spend so much time trying to defend the "correct" numbers of camp victims, have you bothered to let
theholocaustexplained.org know that they are wildly incorrect? Or do you only care about understating the number of victims?
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The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by David » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:

As an aside you seem to be claiming that Hilberg had the power to make official findings?
You're off topic, this thread is about Majdenk and your "wrongway" claim. In the "What do deniers deny"? thread you post about Majdanek, in the "Majdanek" thread you post about what deniers deny and go off on Nuremberg! LOL Please, try to focus.

I asked you here to support a specific claim you made. Apparently you can't and also can't stop your mouth running - and the gibberish flowing - about Nuremberg.
As previously said, to have a revision you need a Story to revise.
I can see that you realize that the Nuremberg Tribunal is as "official" a Story as it gets. Start to slither, SM.

Yes, Hilberg gave the correct figures for Jewish deaths (only) and "neglected" to challenge the 1,500,000 Nuremberg figure or the
360,000 figure. You are caught lying about what he actually said.

As to what Revisionists want to revise...here is the Example- The Nuremberg propaganda lie that 1,500,000 people were killed
at Majdanek and the still repeated Believer lie that 360,000 people were killed at majdanek.

Here is what Revisionists about Majdanek-
"The concentration camp Majdanek was a place of suffering.

The people imprisoned there suffered under catastrophic sanitary conditions, epidemics, at times completely insufficient rations, back-breaking heavy labor, harassment. More than 40,000 Majdanek inmates died, primarily from disease, debilitation and malnutrition; an unknown number was executed.

The real victims of Majdanek deserve our respect, just as all victims of war and oppression deserve our respect, regardless what nation they belong to. But we are not doing the dead any service by inflating their number for political and propagandistic reasons and by making utterly unfounded claims about the way they died.


The Revisionist were about right. Many Believers still exaggerate the numbers.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:18 am

Stop with the {!#%@} yellow. This is your last yellow post I answer.

David, I thought we've been discussing the Holocaust, and I forgot that your 1.4 or whatever million wasn't for Jews killed. And that's because you refer to "a Judgment by a Court," the IMT, and I simply can't find anything in the judgment about the number of Jews/people killed at Majdanek. I am sure you remember I've asked you repeatedly to post a link to where in the IMT judgment an estimate of the Majdanek death toll was given. Will you provide that reference so that I can see exactly what you're going on about with the number you use?

Here's where I asked you to do this last November. Just link to the document and quote the relevant text. Then this gets easier.
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And why were Believers so wrong?

Post by David » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:25 am

scrmbldggs wrote:David sure doesn't like Hilberg.

Maybe even more so because it stands to reason that he arrived at those numbers much earlier than the date of the publication of the book?
Why do you say I don't like Hilberg? You are being stupid.
Hilberg was being honest about Jewish deaths at Majdanek...he just didn't challenge the Nuremberg figure of 1,500,000 or the
360,000 figure... Although he must have know about what the real figure was.
Graff put the percentage of Jewish deaths at 83% about right on as it turns out.

But Hilberg is important!

Hilberg proves in 1948 the evidenceshowed that the number of Majdanek deaths was around 75,000.
Nothing new has been discovered. No complex calculations were invented

That raises the question of why proclaimed "Holocaust Scholars" like Martin Gilbert were braying out,
"Between 300,000 and 350,000 people were murdered here in Majdanek over a period of three years."


How possibly could the Nuremberg "evidence" be so far wrong?
The Soviets had all the evidence that Hilberg had.
The answer is obvious, Believers took the tragic figures and exploited them for propaganda purposes
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:43 am

David wrote:I can see that you realize that the Nuremberg Tribunal is as "official" a Story as it gets. Start to slither, SM.
Nope, that isn't what I said. You're wrong because Hilberg disputed the death toll, e.g., Łukaszkiewicz's estimate of 200,000 Jewish victims was made in the late '40s, and Hilberg's estimate challenged that - and any higher estimates. And, since the Soviet estimate was so much higher across the board, but didn't break out the % of Jews, Hilberg challenged that estimate, too.

Again, if you want to discuss Nuremberg, open a thread on it.
David wrote:Yes, Hilberg gave the correct figures for Jewish deaths (only) and "neglected" to challenge the 1,500,000 Nuremberg figure or the 360,000 figure. You are caught lying about what he actually said.
You "caught" me not following what you were talking about . . . because you keep refusing to post the IMT judgment you claim as the "official story" on this. All you had to do, David, is type out, "people," not "Jews."
David wrote:As to what Revisionists want to revise...here is the Example- The Nuremberg propaganda lie that 1,500,000 people were killed at Majdanek and the still repeated Believer lie that 360,000 people were killed at majdanek.
You've not yet shown us where the Nuremberg judgment "lies" that 1.5 million people were killed at Majdanek; the best "believer" source is Kranz - and he says 78,000 people and 60,000 Jews died at Majdanek. So what is it you want to revise and on what basis?

If a non-scholarly website, like The Holocaust Explained, has picked up old, bad data, fixing it is not "revision" of the latest research; that is called fact-checking. The Holocaust Explained, er, explains that their site is not a research site; in fact, it is a site trying to keep up with the research and then share it with schools, etc. Their mistakes are honest or not, I don't have any basis to judge, but I don't assume the worst without any basis for doing so. Clearly, "believer" scholars are trying to establish and communicate the best understanding.

Crapbookpages is a denier website you tried slipping in LOL!

Also, remember McPherson: one purpose of revisionism is to do better research that adds new information that clarifies or changes previous conclusions. This is entirely normal - and exactly what was being done with Majdanek from as early as the late 1940s.
David wrote:Here is what Revisionists about Majdanek-
"The concentration camp Majdanek was a place of suffering.

The people imprisoned there suffered under catastrophic sanitary conditions, epidemics, at times completely insufficient rations, back-breaking heavy labor, harassment. More than 40,000 Majdanek inmates died, primarily from disease, debilitation and malnutrition; an unknown number was executed.

The real victims of Majdanek deserve our respect, just as all victims of war and oppression deserve our respect, regardless what nation they belong to. But we are not doing the dead any service by inflating their number for political and propagandistic reasons and by making utterly unfounded claims about the way they died.


The Revisionist were about right. Many Believers still exaggerate the numbers.
Blah, blah, blah. "Real victims" and "respect" coming from you lot. Ha ha.

But people relying on the latest scholarship don't exaggerate the numbers - and scholars try to establish the best estimates they can, using sources material.

I also need to remind you of a simple point: trials hear all sorts of evidence, and courts accept or reject evidence as they are convinced or not convinced by it. And this is normal, not unique to Nuremberg.

Now, "wrongway gas chambers"? Explanation and source? No more dodging permitted.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: And why were Believers so wrong?

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:44 am

David wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:David sure doesn't like Hilberg.

Maybe even more so because it stands to reason that he arrived at those numbers much earlier than the date of the publication of the book?
Why do you say I don't like Hilberg? You are being stupid.
Hilberg was being honest about Jewish deaths at Majdanek...he just didn't challenge the Nuremberg figure of 1,500,000 or the
360,000 figure... Although he must have know about what the real figure was.
Graff put the percentage of Jewish deaths at 83% about right on as it turns out.

But Hilberg is important!

Hilberg proves in 1948 the evidenceshowed that the number of Majdanek deaths was around 75,000.
Nothing new has been discovered. No complex calculations were invented

That raises the question of why proclaimed "Holocaust Scholars" like Martin Gilbert were braying out,
"Between 300,000 and 350,000 people were murdered here in Majdanek over a period of three years."


How possibly could the Nuremberg "evidence" be so far wrong?
The Soviets had all the evidence that Hilberg had.
The answer is obvious, Believers took the tragic figures and exploited them for propaganda purposes
You were saying?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:46 am

good call, he stops being an obnoxious a-hole or no one should reply. no appeals to mods, just ignore the jerk.
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The point is that the Tribunal knew the correct figures

Post by David » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I forgot that your 1.4 or whatever million wasn't for Jews killed.
I'll try red! Anyway, it is not my 1,400,000. It is the figure from the evidence presented at Nuremberg.
And your sneakiness related to you distortion of what Prof. Hilberg wrote.



nd that's because you refer to "a Judgment by a Court," the IMT, and I simply can't find anything in the judgment about the number of Jews/people killed at Majdanek.

This has been explained to you too. Nuremberg was a show trial- meaning absurd evidence was paraded around to impress the
public, shrunk head, human soap, amazing Soviet films.
The Tribunal actually was remarkable vague on they thought was "real."
The acceptance of Soviet Katyn evidence into the record but the overlooking making a finding is one example.
Another one is quoting Hoess in the Judgment but not ruling when a "Hitler Order" was actually issued is another... Or clarifying the actual date
that he was called to Berlin and into Himmler's office. That would have been easy to establish.

However, the Trial established an official Story. All the Intentionalist sprang full-blown from the "evidence" presented at the
IMT. As I pointed out, the criminal character of the SS was officially established at Nuremberg.

For the most part it is the IMT Story that is being revised.
AJP Taylor started to revise the IMT Story. Professor Hilberg started to revise the IMT Story (kinda)
I am sure you remember I've asked you repeatedly to post a link to where in the IMT judgment an estimate of the Majdanek death toll was given. Will you provide that reference so that I can see exactly what you're going on about with the number you use?

Here's where I asked you to do this last November. Just link to the document and quote the relevant text. Then this gets easier.

I am sorry but you seem to miss the nature of a show trial- I would assert that the Tribunal (or the prosecutors) knew as well
Helberg would in 2 years what the real death toll at Majdanek was.

That is the whole point of why


[/quote]

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Re: The point is that the Tribunal knew the correct figures

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:54 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I forgot that your 1.4 or whatever million wasn't for Jews killed.


I'll try red! Anyway, it is not my 1,400,000. It is the figure from the evidence presented at Nuremberg.
And your sneakiness related to you distortion of what Prof. Hilberg wrote.



nd that's because you refer to "a Judgment by a Court," the IMT, and I simply can't find anything in the judgment about the number of Jews/people killed at Majdanek.

This has been explained to you too. Nuremberg was a show trial- meaning absurd evidence was paraded around to impress the
public, shrunk head, human soap, amazing Soviet films.
The Tribunal actually was remarkable vague on they thought was "real."
The acceptance of Soviet Katyn evidence into the record but the overlooking making a finding is one example.
Another one is quoting Hoess in the Judgment but not ruling when a "Hitler Order" was actually issued is another... Or clarifying the actual date
that he was called to Berlin and into Himmler's office. That would have been easy to establish.

However, the Trial established an official Story. All the Intentionalist sprang full-blown from the "evidence" presented at the
IMT. As I pointed out, the criminal character of the SS was officially established at Nuremberg.

For the most part it is the IMT Story that is being revised.
AJP Taylor started to revise the IMT Story. Professor Hilberg started to revise the IMT Story (kinda)
I am sure you remember I've asked you repeatedly to post a link to where in the IMT judgment an estimate of the Majdanek death toll was given. Will you provide that reference so that I can see exactly what you're going on about with the number you use?

Here's where I asked you to do this last November. Just link to the document and quote the relevant text. Then this gets easier.

I am sorry but you seem to miss the nature of a show trial- I would assert that the Tribunal (or the prosecutors) knew as well
Helberg would in 2 years what the real death toll at Majdanek was.

That is the whole point of why


Afraid not.
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Re: The point is that the Tribunal knew the correct figures

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:02 am

Ooh, I wanna play too!


[quote="Statistical Mechanic"][quote="David"][quote="Statistical Mechanic"] I forgot that your 1.4 or whatever million wasn't for Jews killed.[/quote]

I'll try red! Anyway, it is not my 1,400,000. It is the figure from the evidence presented at Nuremberg.
And your sneakiness related to you distortion of what Prof. Hilberg wrote.



nd that's because you refer to "a Judgment by a Court," the IMT, and I simply can't find anything in the judgment about the number of Jews/people killed at Majdanek.

This has been explained to you too. Nuremberg was a show trial- meaning absurd evidence was paraded around to impress the
public, shrunk head, human soap, amazing Soviet films.
The Tribunal actually was remarkable vague on they thought was "real."
The acceptance of Soviet Katyn evidence into the record but the overlooking making a finding is one example.
Another one is quoting Hoess in the Judgment but not ruling when a "Hitler Order" was actually issued is another... Or clarifying the actual date
that he was called to Berlin and into Himmler's office. That would have been easy to establish.

However, the Trial established an official Story. All the Intentionalist sprang full-blown from the "evidence" presented at the
IMT. As I pointed out, the criminal character of the SS was officially established at Nuremberg.

For the most part it is the IMT Story that is being revised.
AJP Taylor started to revise the IMT Story. Professor Hilberg started to revise the IMT Story (kinda)
I am sure you remember I've asked you repeatedly to post a link to where in the IMT judgment an estimate of the Majdanek death toll was given. Will you provide that reference so that I can see exactly what you're going on about with the number you use?

Here's where I asked you to do this last November. Just link to the document and quote the relevant text. Then this gets easier.

I am sorry but you seem to miss the nature of a show trial- I would assert that the Tribunal (or the prosecutors) knew as well
Helberg would in 2 years what the real death toll at Majdanek was.

That is the whole point of why


[/quote][/fade]
Afraid not.[/quote][/size]
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by David » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:05 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:I can see that you realize that the Nuremberg Tribunal is as "official" a Story as it gets. Start to slither, SM.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Łukaszkiewicz's estimate of 200,000 Jewish victims was made in the late '40s,
"Lying" Łukaszkiewicz claimed 360,000 Majdanek deaths. Why was he 300,000 deaths off? Why was Holocaust "Scholar"
Marin Gilbert braying out 300,000 to 350,000?


David wrote:Yes, Hilberg gave the correct figures for Jewish deaths (only) and "neglected" to challenge the 1,500,000 Nuremberg figure or the 360,000 figure. You are caught lying about what he actually said.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:You "caught" me not following what you were talking about . . . because you keep refusing to post the IMT judgment you claim as the "official story" on this. All you had to do, David, is type out, "people," not "Jews."
I caught you lying about what Hilberg said.
David wrote:As to what Revisionists want to revise...here is the Example- The Nuremberg propaganda lie that 1,500,000 people were killed at Majdanek and the still repeated Believer lie that 360,000 people were killed at majdanek.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:You've not yet shown us where the Nuremberg judgment "lies" that 1.5 million people were killed at Majdanek; the best "believer" source is Kranz - and he says 78,000 people and 60,000 Jews died at Majdanek. So what is it you want to revise and on what basis?
Think you are being cute with the "Judgment" thing? uh? You must have been an only child!
the IMT was a show trial....You need to look at the evidence presented in the court. TheTribunal probably knew the
Soviet evidence was shi...uh, inaccurate as the dickens.

snip SM's crass, vulgar scatologic ranting-
David wrote:Here is what Revisionists about Majdanek-
"The concentration camp Majdanek was a place of suffering.

The people imprisoned there suffered under catastrophic sanitary conditions, epidemics, at times completely insufficient rations, back-breaking heavy labor, harassment. More than 40,000 Majdanek inmates died, primarily from disease, debilitation and malnutrition; an unknown number was executed.

The real victims of Majdanek deserve our respect, just as all victims of war and oppression deserve our respect, regardless what nation they belong to. But we are not doing the dead any service by inflating their number for political and propagandistic reasons and by making utterly unfounded claims about the way they died.


The Revisionist were about right. Many Believers still exaggerate the numbers.
The real Revisionist view of Majdanek deserves to be repeated!

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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:24 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:I can see that you realize that the Nuremberg Tribunal is as "official" a Story as it gets. Start to slither, SM.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Łukaszkiewicz's estimate of 200,000 Jewish victims was made in the late '40s,

"Lying" Łukaszkiewicz claimed 360,000 Majdanek deaths. Why was he 300,000 deaths off? Why was Holocaust "Scholar"
Marin Gilbert braying out 300,000 to 350,000?



David wrote:Yes, Hilberg gave the correct figures for Jewish deaths (only) and "neglected" to challenge the 1,500,000 Nuremberg figure or the 360,000 figure. You are caught lying about what he actually said.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:You "caught" me not following what you were talking about . . . because you keep refusing to post the IMT judgment you claim as the "official story" on this. All you had to do, David, is type out, "people," not "Jews."

I caught you lying about what Hilberg said.

David wrote:As to what Revisionists want to revise...here is the Example- The Nuremberg propaganda lie that 1,500,000 people were killed at Majdanek and the still repeated Believer lie that 360,000 people were killed at majdanek.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:You've not yet shown us where the Nuremberg judgment "lies" that 1.5 million people were killed at Majdanek; the best "believer" source is Kranz - and he says 78,000 people and 60,000 Jews died at Majdanek. So what is it you want to revise and on what basis?


Think you are being cute with the "Judgment" thing? uh? You must have been an only child!
the IMT was a show trial....You need to look at the evidence presented in the court. TheTribunal probably knew the
Soviet evidence was shi...uh, inaccurate as the dickens.

snip SM's crass, vulgar scatologic ranting-

David wrote:Here is what Revisionists about Majdanek-
"The concentration camp Majdanek was a place of suffering.

The people imprisoned there suffered under catastrophic sanitary conditions, epidemics, at times completely insufficient rations, back-breaking heavy labor, harassment. More than 40,000 Majdanek inmates died, primarily from disease, debilitation and malnutrition; an unknown number was executed.

The real victims of Majdanek deserve our respect, just as all victims of war and oppression deserve our respect, regardless what nation they belong to. But we are not doing the dead any service by inflating their number for political and propagandistic reasons and by making utterly unfounded claims about the way they died.


The Revisionist were about right. Many Believers still exaggerate the numbers.

The real Revisionist view of Majdanek deserves to be repeated!


No worries, it's all there... just for the record. But you still have to explain what it is, David.
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:27 am

David wrote:"Lying" Łukaszkiewicz claimed 360,000 Majdanek deaths. Why was he 300,000 deaths off? Why was Holocaust "Scholar"
Marin Gilbert braying out 300,000 to 350,000?
I don't know; I've only read comments on his estimate. There's no reason to think he lied. What makes you think that?
David wrote:I caught you lying about what Hilberg said.
David, previously I'd posted
What you fail to say, with your dishonest set-up ("Today, the figure has dropped . . .") is that Scheffler, Berenstein & Rutkowski and Marszalek, long before "today," all estimated death tolls well below the one you claim as the "supposed fact" that was revised: already in 1961 Raul Hilberg estimated that 50,000 Jews had been murdered at Majdanek. The Soviets did submit a claim at the IMT for the murder at Majdanek of 1.5 million "persons: Soviet prisoners of war, prisoners of war of the former Polish Army, and nationals of various countries- Poles, Frenchmen, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Serbs, Greeks, Croats, and a great number of Jews." (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp; the Soviet claim of 1.5 persons exterminated at the camp became part of the indictment at Nuremberg)

David, please post a reference to the IMT judgment's finding that 1.4 million people were killed at Majdanek and their used as fertilizer. Thank you.
I linked to this. You've never clarified or shown what I've asked you about - the IMT judgment on the death toll of Majdanek. I misunderstood you. Simple.
David wrote:Think you are being cute with the "Judgment" thing? uh? You must have been an only child!
Hunh? No, you wrote that the official story, including the Majdanek death toll, was in the IMT judgment. I quoted you on that. Show us.
David wrote:the IMT was a show trial....You need to look at the evidence presented in the court. TheTribunal probably knew the
Soviet evidence was shi...uh, inaccurate as the dickens.
Well, you are surely nuts, to understand a trial result, one reads the court's judgment, not all the evidence submitted, whether the court relied on it or not.
David wrote:snip SM's crass, vulgar scatologic ranting-
Accurate description, you mean.
David wrote:The real Revisionist view of Majdanek deserves to be repeated!
And a good thing you did, it shows how afraid you are to answer what I asked you, Mr Wrongway.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:32 am

Here is why David is posting repetitive, off focus nonsense about Nuremberg -he has no answer for what I asked him earlier:
So, your first point being simply inane, let's discuss your second. What do you mean by "wrongway"? Are you making the same claim Nessie put forward in this thread and for which Nessie could provide no sources? Or are you referring to something else and expect us to read your mind? Explain.
So he's entirely ignored the questions he was asked and tries to divert the thread.

@ David: Evidence for your claim?

Back on track now . . . but if David tries one more obfuscation, we can move on, knowing that he made a claim that he is unable to back up.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:30 am

No reply from David, yet he has plenty of time to confuse himself, in another thread, about what HD is. One can only assume that David had no evidence to support the claim he made about the Majdanek gas chambers and so is ignoring the challenge to explain his claim and show us his evidence for it. In short, one has to assume that when David wrote about "wrongway gas chambers" at Majdanek, he was being dishonest.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:26 am

David still refusing to reply.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:47 pm

David! Psssst, here's a hint for you: There's no evidence for "wrongway gas chambers" at Majdanek. Eric Hunt just made {!#%@} up again. And you got snookered again, too.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:42 am

David has time to post in an old thread on Lipstadt (no, I don't know what the post said . . . ) but still refuses to answer this:
. . . there is no evidence that I found in Hunt's video for "wrongway gas chambers," nor did Nessie find any way back when. So David needs to stop stalling and dodging and spell out what he's talking about. That means, David needs to give us a summary of the evidence he thinks exists for "wrongway gas chambers" and tell us the exact minutes/seconds mark in the video where the evidence is provided. . . .
This is how David and other Holocaust deniers deal with history: they make claims that they cannot support and they evade questions about those claims. In the case of David's claim about "wrong way gas chambers" at Majdanek, David's evasion and sing and dance have been going on for weeks. What is David afraid of? It is simply not possible to have useful discussion with people who stall, dodge, and stonewall simple, legitimate inquires.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:00 pm

Going on weeks with no answer from David . . .
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by David » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Going on weeks with no answer from David . . .
Since you have taken to stalking me on various threads shouting out the the same question
I was just going to send you a nice tin foil hat to wear.

But someone has taken the time to demolish your ridiculous lies.



Too many photographs and records for you to lie about, SM.

And, as opposed to you, Mr. "Arm Chair Believer Expert," the gentleman actually went to Majdanek.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:37 pm

Perp or survivor?
.
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote: Well, you are surely nuts, to understand a trial result, one reads the court's judgment, not all the evidence submitted, whether the court relied on it or not.
Then if I read one of those "scholarly" "academic" books about the Holocaust, I won't find any statement of facts being supported by a person's testimony given in a court of law (a.k.a. evidence submitted), will I?

Or, if I do, the testimony will have a footnote referencing the part of the judgement where it is indicated that the court relied upon that particular testimony?

How many times are you going to try this gambit and fail?
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:12 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote: Well, you are surely nuts, to understand a trial result, one reads the court's judgment, not all the evidence submitted, whether the court relied on it or not.
Then if I read one of those "scholarly" "academic" books about the Holocaust, I won't find any statement of facts being supported by a person's testimony given in a court of law (a.k.a. evidence submitted), will I?
Of course you will.

Your post is a non sequitur. I was talking about court judgments, not what scholars or others do with trial evidence or with court judgments after the fact.

Also, if I recall, my post wasn't about testimony given in a court of law at all but rather about Soviet submissions to the IMT. At least that's my recollection.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Or, if I do, the testimony will have a footnote referencing the part of the judgement where it is indicated that the court relied upon that particular testimony?
It depends on the author's purposes, of course.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many times are you going to try this gambit and fail?
I don't know what gambit you are referring to. I simply reminded David that evidence submitted to a court is evaluated by the court, some accepted, some not. That is part of how courts reach determinations - by evaluating evidence for competing claims. If the court's judgment doesn't mention a piece of the evidence (e.g., killing took place by means of steam), but reaches a decision that contradicts that submitted evidence (e.g., killing took place by means of gas), claiming that the court found that piece of evidence (steam) persuasive is nothing short of bonkers.
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Re: The Amazing Shrinking Majdanek Death Toll

Post by David » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:34 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
How many times are you going to try this gambit and fail?
Hello MQC-
SM has been caught lying about the "backwards gas chamber." Caught lying about what Browning said at the Lipstadt Trial.
And caught making up the "Hilberg gambit." I think he is in some sort of competition with Matty Ellard.

He has been squirming for months over the absurd impossible "evidence" of 1,400,000 deaths presented at Nuremberg
trying to divert attention from the obvious....ie. The Soviets made up the ugly tale. Originally they claimed that
2,000,000 people were killed at majdanek.

For the straight scope on Believer antics on Majdanek see
Eric Hunts The Majdanek Gas Chamber Myth


.

One Believer even tried to blame the Germans, claiming they tricked the Soviets by bringing huge numbers of
shoes into the camp. :roll:

Anyway, SM is a Believer

To learn something new, supported with photographic and documentary evidence,
Take a look at

All Six of the Gas Chambers have been shown to post-War fakes.
This, of course, is entirely in line with the Revision of the death toll from 1,400,000 to the still horrible but
"normal" 78,000.

What is weird is that Believers seem to hate any reduction in the death tolls.
I think it is good news but the Believers keep returning to the false higher figures.
I took this today from a Believer website

By contrast, the camp's museum, the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum agree that over 300,000 people died at Majdanek.... Most likely, Hilberg's figure is correct, and the remaining 250,000 or more victims of the camp were not Jewish, making it an exception to the other five death camps.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... anek.shtml

As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly.
And a Believer in the Ugly Myth will return to his sick lies.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:10 am

I guess that answers my earlier question: tourists.

Well then, to learn something new, supported with photographic and documentary evidence - who needs scholars and actual research...
.
Lard, save me from your followers.