Hunts Majdanek film.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:25 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I'm not doubting mass graves were found at the camp. I'm asking why you equate "filmed by the Russians for propaganda purposes" and "witnessed by journalists" with "thoroughly documented"
Well, the way it first became known that mass graves were found at the camp was through the Polish and Soviet investigation. I must clarify too that my referring you to films and photographs made of the site and reports of what was found there is not the investigation itself.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:There's no confusion on my part. I recognize the difference between and the relative value of conclusions drawn vs evidence presented. Fortunately, in this instance, we have the Extraordinary Report which tells us the conclusions of the Commission and the evidence supporting those conclusions.
I think that by referring to the propaganda uses of the evidence found at the site and pointing to the errors of interpretation you are in fact either confusing the conclusions vs the evidence or trying to muddy what was found. Since you are not doubting mass graves were found, I'm not sure what your point is. Is your point that the photographs and film footage are not of mass graves at Majdanek?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why don't you tell us how the evidence detailed in the Report was misinterpreted by the Russians and the Poles back in 1945 and how it can be interpreted to support the current story.
The report has long since been superseded by new research. It contains a mix of pieces that cannot be supported by evidence and pieces that can be. The piece I referred to, you agree, is among those supported by evidence.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: . . . we don't have any confirming evidence for the Soviet-Polish commission's claims in this report except for eyewitness testimony.
I didn't say that we have corroborating evidence from eyewitnesses for the report's statement, for example, that in the camp "the Committee found over one thousand three hundred and fifty cubic metres of compost consisting of dung, the ashes of incinerated corpses and small human bones." The understanding we have of the camp today comes from a variety of sources, among these sources eyewitnesses but also documents, including German records of the camp's construction, the camp layout and physical features, etc.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:The report mentions the camp's use for the extermination of the Jews. What evidence do you think the commission ignored that supports the claim that the greater part of those murdered at the camp were Jewish?
The majority of prisoners in the camp during much of 1942 and 1943 were Jews as were most of those killed in the camp. The report's implication is that Jews were simply one of many groups who were victims in the camp ("the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of different nationalities of Europe") rather than the main victims. In the section on murder using gas, the report gives several examples of victims of gassing and fails to mention Jews, unless I missed a reference (I see mentions, in this section of the report, of Poles, "persons including women and children," "the selection of people," "children of ages ranging from three to ten," "prisoners," and "totally innocent people, including aged people, women and children"). Jeremy Hicks analyzed film footage not used in the films I've mentioned and concludes that material relating to the preponderant role of Jews was held back.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:You're correct about the caption and how it appears in a series of photographs on the Yad Vashem website. It is awkward
Yes, the additional information, not the caption, was used for a series of images and was awkward . . . It appears that the series, with a couple Buchenwald images as you note, was provided with additional information, beyond the caption for each photograph, and that that additional information was applied globally but should not have been.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:especially so when one of photographs in that series of photographs taken by Soviet soldiers a week after the liberation of Birkinau, Auschwitz, and Madjanek is a drawing of prisoners at
Agreed, this is an error. There's another shot of Buchenwald in the series that I hadn't caught as well.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Doesn't prove the Holocaust didn't happen. It just proves that the people who present evidence that it did are lazy, sloppy, liars, or simply don't care about presenting accurate facts because they know nobody will call them out on it.
How does it prove this? It rather appears to me a case of a mistake having been missed during checking in the process of preparing materials for display. I don't think, and neither do you or anyone else, that YV was trying to mislead people into thinking that an image captioned Buchenwald was taken at Auschwitz or Majdanek. Of course, like people studying any aspect of history, those studying the Final Solution make mistakes - get called out for them - and correct them.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Investigators determined that people had been shot through autopsies. They didn't find any evidence that they had been gassed.
I think you're mistaken, not that investigators determined that people had been shot, they did, but that they found no evidence of death from gas. The report of the commission read:
The discovery within the precincts of the camp of a number of corpses bearing the characteristic symptoms of poisoning by carbon monoxide confirms the fact that the Germans utilized carbon monoxide for the purpose of putting prisoners to death.
This conclusion would not support these particular victims having been shot. I am not aware of the correlation of the victims shown in the images of the camp's mass graves to the discovery of corpses showing signs of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why don't you tell why you think the prisoners walked in the direction the Madjanek museum says they walked?
I already have in numerous posts including recently this one Again, what I asked Nessie was why we should believe Hunt's conclusion: no satisfactory answer has been provided, and, in fact, we can see where Hunt was dishonest, as detailed throughout the thread.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:24 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Nessie,

I wanted to return to this issue, Hunt's raising the supposed logistical concerns regarding the distance between No. 41 and the crematorium - about a mile - a....
I found the indictment (in YVA P26/13) in the 1975-1981 Majdanek trial held in Dusseldorf (known as the Third Majdanek Trial). The charges filed in that case match with what Mattogno and Graf wrote about the sequence of crematoria and also with Kranz's research on corpse-disposal sites (thanks to a friend for helping me translate from the German, which I'm happy to post if you'd like; italic is added by me):
The bodies of prisoners who died were burned in a crematorium built in the 1st intermediate field on June 1942. This crematorium had two furnaces (?) which could burn approximately 200 bodies in the course of 24 Hours. A larger crematorium built behind field V was put into operation in the autumn of 1943. It held five furnaces in which up to 1,000 corpses could be burned daily. If the capacity of the respective crematorium was not enough, the bodies were burned in the vicinity of the camp on car chassis and railroad tracks. Cremations of this type were carried out in particular in the period from December 1942 until the fall of 1943.

Recall that the last major gassings, according to Kranz, occurred in October 1943, with perhaps a small number more taking place no later than November 1943. It was in November 1943 that 18,400 Jews were shot in the trenches behind Field V, located close to the new crematorium. Before then, that is, during almost the whole time the gas chambers were operated, corpses were disposed of in the old crematory in Interfield I, as it happens close by the gas chambers, and at incineration locations in the camp.

This succinct note in the charges filed at Dusseldorf clarifies, I think, the sequence and helps explain that the extant crematory's location, which Hunt tries making a problem for the situation of the gas chambers behind No. 41, is a false issue; rather, Hunt simplified the sequence beyond recognition to make it appear that the contemporary ruins of the camp equated to its configuration during the course of the mass murder.

SM
Judicial findings alert! I highlighted the part of your response that can be confirmed to be evidence generated during a judicial proceeding (as is nearly all the evidence we have for the Holocaust). I suspect there is a great deal more evidence you are using that wouldn't exist if it were not for some sort of a trial. However, I don't have the kranz book so I can't follow the footnotes to find out if that is indeed the case.

Since you don't believe the vast majority of all the Holocaust evidence is generated in course of a judicial proceeding of some type, you should have no problem finding a non-judicial source that confirms the facts you have presented.
You really do get yourself all tangled up - partly due to your confusion about the nature of the discipline of history, partly due to your willful lack of understanding of criminal proceedings, partly due to your zeal to argue some obscure point about evidence used for the Final Solution, and partly due to your rushing and not thinking about what is posted.

Please re-read my post.

If you re-read the post, you will understand that I didn't cite any "judicial findings" at all. I quoted from an indictment, that is, the charges against people accused of a crime, not what the court found. That is, the snippet I quoted is from, as I wrote, "the indictment (in YVA P26/13) in the 1975-1981 Majdanek trial held in Dusseldorf (known as the Third Majdanek Trial)" or, as I also wrote, "the charges filed at Dusseldorf." What quoted is not evidence but rather a clear statement of some of the reasoning for what the prosecution decided to charge.

I do thank you for taking the trouble to highlight the text of the indictment and the note I added introducing it, but your doing so wasn't necessary; I'm well aware of the source I used. I used it, as my post explained not because it was a "judicial finding" or evidence but because it happens to be a succinct explanation of 1) what I'd earlier explained to Nessie about the two crematories at Majdanek and their roles, 2) what Graf and Mattogno wrote about there being two crematories at the camp and the timing involved, and 3) how Hunt tried to mislead the gullible into thinking that the location of the new crematory is evidence against gassings in the bunker behind No. 41.

As for the rest of your blather, are you referring to where I wrote that "Many of the government documents and reports which historians examine were indeed evidence in postwar trials . . ." and that "one hallmark of the work done since, in addition to the variety of the evidence consulted by historians, is the quantity of sources tapped: for example, by the estimate of Lawrence Douglas IMT investigators studied more than 100,000 documents - of which only 4,000 were submitted as evidence in the trial against the major war criminals"? Why on Earth should I be asked to produce specifically judicial or non-judicial sources, whatever you mean by that? Balsamo tried explaining all this to you when he wrote, "The fact that TODAY a document is classified through the IMT system, does not mean that the document was created by the IMT." As I told you earlier, "historians' making use of documents (and testimonies) that were also part of trials is different to historians' replaying judicial proceedings."

At any rate, the sources utilized by Graf and Mattogno for the crematory construction process, which led them to the same conclusion as what was stated in the 1974 indictment, include trial testimony, especially Mussfeldt's, documents in the Archive of the State Museum in Majdanek) (especially documents from the Central Building Office of the POW Camp Lublin, also telegrams and letters), the Archive of the Auschwitz State Museum, the State Archive of the Russian Federation, Moscow) (including correspondence about the construction), the State Archive of the Vojvodship in Lublin, even expert reports from “the Polish-Soviet Investigative Commission,” and technical drawings of aspects of the camp from Majdanek Periodical and from H. Kori (the crematory manufacturer). I am traveling and didn't pack Kranz but I recall (though I'm seriously jet-lagged) his paying little attention to the construction of the new crematory.

You need to waffle in giant confusion about all this so you can keep ignoring the substance of the discussion, of course, which is that Hunt tried to mislead readers when he posted on his web page about Bad und Disinfektion I that
The bodies then would have to have been sent to the crematory on the complete opposite side of the camp, more than a mile away, up a hill!
The original crematory, which stopped operating in October 1942, stood adjacent the gas chambers behind No. 41; the crematorium to which Hunt referred, the one a mile away and up the hill, was built later and opened in fall 1943, about the time the gassing program ceased. A significant portion of the corpses were, therefore, were incinerated outdoors.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:47 pm

It is apparent why Hunt's handlers have stopped him posting in SSF, with his Majdanek propaganda video imploding as badly here as his Treblinka transfer video did earlier.

A bit off topic, to be sure, but I haven't heard that Hunt "found" all those Warsaw Jews he asked help finding - remember? the ones Hunt was sure were "resettled" in 1942 somewhere besides Treblinka and about whom he appealed to revisionists to send him information? the same ones who give Maryzilla and David allergic reactions when we try discussing them?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:20 am

Nessie,

I happen to be reading a just-published book on the General-Gouvernement - Martin Winstone's The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland under the General Government. After summarizing the three Einsatz Reinhard camps, Winstone turns his attention to other camps that served various purposes in the Final Solution in the east: he mentions, of course, Auschwitz as a camp that combined extermination and forced-labor mission. He discusses how Himmler's deadline of December 1942 for the extermination of GG Jews (excepting a small number of forced-laborers to be held in 5 cities) was missed and the implications of this for 1943; he introduces some of the less-well-known innovations of the FS in the GG such as what he calls "transit ghettos" - places like Izbica in which Jews were concentrated before being cycled to the AR death camps; he describes the survival of the Radom armaments camps with their Jewish slave workforce; he gives an overview of remnant camps and ghettos especially in Lublin district where Jews sorted and worked over goods stolen from other Jews murdered in AR camps, and he discusses the punishing labor, described in the Wannsee protocol, meant to extract the last drop of labor power from Jewish slaves on the Durchgangsstrasse IV or at Janowska before they would perish from overwork, malnutrition, disease - or murder when they were no longer useful to the Germans.

Winstone devotes about a single page to Majdanek - and I felt that it was worth sharing that with you. Recall that Jews at Majdanek were murdered en masse in the great shooting action commanded by SSPF-Lublin Sporrenberg during November 1943 - along with Jews at Poniatowa and Trawniki - in Aktion Erntefest. At the beginning of 1943, when Himmler had sought to have the Jews of the GG finished off, about 300,000 out of the 1.8 million Jews of the region were still alive. Thus, although Bełzec was closed down by the end of 1942, Sobibór and Treblinka continued to be places where Polish Jews were murdered - and both camps saw their missions widened beyond the GG - to the "cleansing" of Bezirk Białystok and parts of western and southern Europe. The numbers of remaining Jews, housed in a number of remnant ghettos and work camp (like Plaszow in Crakow and like camps those mentioned above), declined throughout the year in the various killing actions at Sobibór, Treblinka, and other sites in the GG. By the time fall 1943, a total of 1.38 million Jews had been killed at the AR camps - and more had perished in ghettos, work camps, and places like Janowska and Majdanek.

It is in this context that Winstone covers the Majdanek camp (pp 167-168), describing the camp in very similar terms to those shared previously in this thread:
Bełzec, Sobibór, and Treblinka were just three of hundreds of sites across the General Government where Jews were murdered in 1942-1943. Another was the fourth camp included in the Höfle Telegram, Majdanek, although its role in the Holocaust has been much misunderstood. The camp had originally been intended for Soviet POWs but they never arrived. Jews, some 74,000 of whom passed through, thus formed the majority of inmates until November 1943 [Ernefest]. Majdanek has often been compared to Auschwitz . . . but the analogy is misleading. Its primary function was as a slave labor camp to which able-bodied Jews who were not selected for the extermination camps were sent, as in the case of the Slovak transports in June 1942 or deportations from Warsaw after the 1943 uprising. . . . This status was reflected in another of [Majdanek's] function, that of transit camp: around 15,000 Jews were eventually sent from Majdanek to other locations including Auschwitz and Sobibór. The camp undoubtedly became a mass killing site but never in the sense of receiving daily transports like Auschwitz, Bełzec, Sobibór, or Treblinka. The gas chambers, which were constructed in late 1942 just as the murders in the Lublin district were concluding [Bełzec ceased functioning at this time], were smaller than in the other camps and used less frequently, primarily on weakened prisoners . . . or weakened women and children from new transports. The gassings formed just one - and not necessarily the most important - form of killing in the camp. Large numbers (more than 10,000 in 1942 alone) died from disease, malnutrition and overwork, an illustration that the concept of extermination through labor remained an important element of the Holocaust. . . . A very large proportion of the inmates were shot, including an unknown number of typhoid victims in 1942 and then 18,000 people (more than 30 per cent of the 59,000 Jews who died in Majdanek) on a single day in November 1943.
With this, and previous explanations of Majdanek's role, in mind, it is easy to understand, I think, how Hunt sets up false expectations, continuing the Auschwitz analogy, of what an extermination camp/KL should be - in terms of scale, killing process, etc - so he can swat them down and appear to have accomplished something. He hasn't - except to reveal his own blindspots and ignorance and to prove his commitment to a campaign of disinformation. Of course, deniers are stuck in the '40s, going after long-since revised claims and interpretations - ones concerning Majdanek among these.

I recognize, of course, the obsession which Hunt and deniers have with gas chambers; with that in mind, I think it is worth sharing this comparison which Winstone makes of the Janowska camp to Majdanek (p 168):
Although there were no gas chambers in Janowska, it is likely that more people were murdered there, mostly by shooting, than at Majdanek.
Here Winstone cites a 1998 article by Thomas Sandkühler in a collection of essays on National Socialist concentration camps, edited by Ulrich Herbert. The narrow fixations of deniers like Hunt - and their desire to put over a deceitful story about the Final Solution - lead them to ignore the larger context, which Winstone provides, and thus to miss the lion's share of what happened and its significance.

SM
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:21 pm

I see that this "Treblinka continued to be places where Polish Jews were murdered - and both camps saw their missions widened beyond the GG - to the "cleansing" of Bezirk Białystok and parts of western and southern Europe." is verified by this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and how some of the last transports were from Bulgaria.

I wonder if the Hofle telegram should be looked at with a new light as to why Majdanek was referred to as 'L'.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:51 pm

Nessie wrote:I wonder if the Hofle telegram should be looked at with a new light as to why Majdanek was referred to as 'L'.
Because the name "Majdanek" is a common or popular term for what was officially called "KL Lublin." The Majdanek website explains this:
The camp, built from autumn 1941, was initially called Kriegsgefangenenlager der Waffen SS Lublin – a camp for prisoners of war, and in February 1943 was renamed Konzentrationslager Lublin – a concentration camp.
Kranz also mentions this on p 8 of his book The Extermination of Jews at Majdanek Concentration Camp. Thus, Höfle was referring to the formal name for the camp we know as "Majdanek" when he used the "L."

The real mystery concerning Höfle's use of the initials B, T, S, and L in his telegram arose back in March 2014 when your friend Fritz Berg alerted the world and, inexplicably, the Nobel committee, of his protege's "discovery" of how to break the "Höfle code":
Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:"B" meant Birkenau--NOT Belzec.
"T" meant Theresienstadt--NOT Treblinka.
"S" meant Stutthof--NOT Sobibor.
"L" meant Lublin.

http://gaschamberhoax.com/the-end-of-th ... aust-hoax/

Stay tuned for much more hoax shattering news. Nominations for Nobel prizes will be appreciated.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything athttp://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.gaschamberhoax.com
Not content with garnering just the one Stundie for his Birkenau gas-chamber-breath-holding argument, Fritz was clearly shooting for a second Stundie award. I for one meant to thank Fritz for reminding us that Hunt's stupidity, not to mention Fritz's own, is every bit as colossal as his mendacity.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:27 am

My two cents: KL Lublin was never intended as a Totenlager like Sobibor. Gassings there happened out of necessity (for lack of a better word) rather than purpose.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:34 am

.[/quote]
Kranz also mentions this on p 8 of his book The Extermination of Jews at Majdanek Concentration Camp. Thus, Höfle was referring to the formal name for the camp we know as "Majdanek" when he used the "L."

The real mystery concerning Höfle's use of the initials B, T, S, and L in his telegram arose back in March 2014 when your friend Fritz Berg alerted the world and, inexplicably, the Nobel committee, of his protege's "discovery" of how to break the "Höfle code":
Friedrich Paul Berg wrote:"B" meant Birkenau--NOT Belzec.
"T" meant Theresienstadt--NOT Treblinka.
"S" meant Stutthof--NOT Sobibor.
"L" meant Lublin.

http://gaschamberhoax.com/the-end-of-th ... aust-hoax/

Stay tuned for much more hoax shattering news. Nominations for Nobel prizes will be appreciated.

Friedrich Paul Berg

Learn everything athttp://www.nazigassings.com
Nazi Gassings Never Happened! Niemand wurde vergast!

http://www.gaschamberhoax.com
Not content with garnering just the one Stundie for his Birkenau gas-chamber-breath-holding argument, Fritz was clearly shooting for a second Stundie award. I for one meant to thank Fritz for reminding us that Hunt's stupidity, not to mention Fritz's own, is every bit as colossal as his mendacity.[/quote]


SOURCE?

As far as I know, none of the camps that berg proposed were under the influence of Hofle (who was in Lublin). Also, there is no way that Theresienstadt could have an intake of 700K in a year without it being commonly known.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:44 am

Jeff_36 wrote:SOURCE?

As far as I know, none of the camps that berg proposed were under the influence of Hofle (who was in Lublin). Also, there is no way that Theresienstadt could have an intake of 700K in a year without it being commonly known.
Right, the post here (same as link in my post) https://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php? ... hof#p36579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is beyond stupid. It is nonsensical, which is why Hunt took it down from his website after even RODOH's cheering squad couldn't stomach it. (Thus you will get a 404 notice if you click on the link in Berg's post - Berg seems to be "helping" Hunt make a fool of himself.)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:44 am

Jeff_36 wrote:My two cents: KL Lublin was never intended as a Totenlager like Sobibor. Gassings there happened out of necessity (for lack of a better word) rather than purpose.
What Hunt pretends is that Majdanek was like Auschwitz, which leads him to set up strawman after strawman.

Also, since revisionists are obsessed with gas chambers, Hunt's sole focus is on gassings - rather than on the role(s) Majdanek was to play including the mass-murder by shooting at the camp (during and before Erntefest).

As we've seen in this thread, understanding the broader context, along with the planned and improvised uses of KL Lublin, helps to expose Hunt's game and his misrepresentations.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:54 am

I read the epic thread on Hunts Treblinka screed. You and Terry utterly kicked the {!#%@} out of him. His fraudulent editing was exposed. What an outstanding job. Inspired me to join the forum.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:57 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I read the epic thread on Hunts Treblinka screed. You and Terry utterly kicked the {!#%@} out of him. His fraudulent editing was exposed. What an outstanding job. Inspired me to join the forum.
Great to have you here! Welcome. I will get back to you on żydokomuna, I think it is a very important issue and very good you raised it. (And good point re: Höfle's camps!)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:02 am

The fact that some use it as a justification sickens me.

The fact that Zinoviev (Aronov) Trotsky (Bronstein) and Kamenev (Rosenfeld) chose Russian sounding surnames to replace their old ones says a lot.

What's your take?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:06 am

Jeff_36 wrote:The fact that some use it as a justification sickens me.

The fact that Zinoviev (Aronov) Trotsky (Bronstein) and Kamenev (Rosenfeld) chose Russian sounding surnames to replace their old ones says a lot.

What's your take?
I basically agree - want to add some points to the ones you made - but also probe a bit on the inter-ethnic conflicts in Poland and elsewhere in the East, which the Nazis exploited . . . need some time to pull together some notes. The Nazis' conception - Jewish finance capital AND Jewish Bolshevism - also more or less tells us it is an element of anti-Semitic thinking.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:16 am

Jeff_36 wrote: The fact that Zinoviev (Aronov) Trotsky (Bronstein) and Kamenev (Rosenfeld) chose Russian sounding surnames to replace their old ones says a lot.

What's your take?
I'm sort of aware that the Imperial Russian general staff in 1914, had lots of blokes with German names, as a legacy from its westernisation period. Changing surnames may have been quite common in Russia in that period.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:25 pm

So I got a PM asking me a good question about Majdanek - did any of the SS staff ever admit to the gas chambers there? The simple answer is yes, some did.

Here's a sampling - the third Majdanek trial indictment, which I have, is 500 pp long and I've not surveyed it yet for this point - that will have to wait. However, Kranz gives the following:

- p 45, head of Majdanek technical department Friedrich Ruppert, 1945 Nuremberg interrogation, description of the structure, gassing rooms, and gas-flask storage (p 50 also testimony of gassing of sick inmates), ND - NO-1903

-p 48 Heinz Stalp, SS member, being interrogated in August 1944 and testifying to a gassing that took place in October 1942, 350 women and children

- p 57 Sporrenberg interrogation, aware of mass murder in the camp's chambers (camp commandant claimed to Sporrenberg that the chambers were for delousing) (as alluded to in Nick Terry's post in the Official Sobibór Thread)

- p 59 Rudolf Ettrich, worked in Effektenkammer and witnessed parts of the gassing process; possibly some others but not many for sure

(An aside: on p 42 a Home Army report about the late fall 1943 dismantling of the gas chambers near the bathhouse - which is actually the right timing)

There's a new book on female guards at Majdanek, by Elissa Mailãnder, which I've not read. I gave it a quick skim for this topic:

- p 173, testimony of guard Georg W (statement in Vienna, 1965); also statements of SS-Oberscharfuhrers August Reinartz (also cited by Kranz) and Hans Perschon

- pp 174-175, a number of prisoner functionaries

- p 175, female guards Erna Pfannstiel, Hertha Ehlert, Luzie H.

But most interesting is this detail, for it seriously undermines Hunt's claims that the evidence for the gas chambers was manufactured/manipulated by the Communists to support their claims of multiple gas chambers at Majdanek.

- Kranz, p 47, testimony of August Reinartz, an SS orderly, 1946, saying that "people were mass murdered only in one gas chamber which was located in a brick building near the bathhouses. Other chambers were used only for disinfection . . ."

- Mailãnder, p 173, Reinartz's description of the process was detailed, given in 1945 to NKVD investigators

So Reinartz testified that the No 41 bathhouse-gas chamber-pavilion complex was the only extermination facility using gas and, counter to the Soviet line, the other gassing facilities in the camp, which the Soviets identified as extermination chambers, were for disinfestation. Further, Reinartz told this to NKVD investigators and they took it down; all this strengthens Reinartz's credibility in that what he related didn't follow the Soviet line and in fact his 1945 testimony matches what recent research has concluded.

There were something like 85 defendants in the three Majdanek trials and I don't have access to all the trial records. Kranz says that many of those on trial denied any involvement with gassing, said they didn't know, etc - but that some defendants and witnesses, as noted above, did attest to homicidal gassings at Majdanek.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:58 pm

I found another SS witness who admitted that there were gas chambers at Majdanek, albeit in an odd place, a quotation from and remarks on the Düsseldorf court judgment:
The Court continued:
. . . The witness Müller is one of the few members of the SS who have not sought to hide their knowledge behind alleged ignorance, inability to remember, disinterest in camp events at the time in question, or other excuses. According to his own statements, he was initially with the Wachsturmbann from late 1941 on, and with the command staff from late 1942 to spring 1943, and has admitted that as part of his training as SDG [sanitation services assistant] he was present when a group of naked people were killed in one of the small gas chambers by piping carbon monoxide into it, and that he observed the deaths of the victims through the small window. The witnesses Cesarski, Stanisławski, Skibinska and Ostrowski unanimously confirmed the use of Zyklon B; this also follows from the protocols of the questioning of the witnesses Benden, Gröner and Rockinger, which were read into evidence.
. . . the case of SS-man Heinz Müller is quite revealing; as the reader will recall, the court had praised him for being "one of the few members of the SS who have not sought to hide their knowledge behind alleged ignorance, inability to remember, disinterest in camp events at the time in question, or other excuses." He confessed having attended the gassings with carbon monoxide, thus finally furnishing some evidence for murders committed with this poison: even though the official subject literature unanimously alleges this killing method, we have failed to find even one other witness statement to this effect.
http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Whilst Graf & Mattogno may have failed to find even one other witness to CO poisoning of the victims at Majdanek, it should be noted that actual historians have located some, at least, Ruppert (gas-flasks) cited by Kranz above; Kapo Otto Rehder, cited in Kranz, p 55 and prisoner Stanisław Olszański, in Kranz, p 56.

Based on recent scholarship, it is to be expected that testimonies would include, as the Düsseldorf court noted that they did, both Zyklon B gassings (as with the witnesses mentioned by Il Re di Convoluzione, as with Ettrich mentioned in Kranz, and as with Kapo Ernst Fischer mentioned in Mailänder, p 174) and CO poisoning (as described by Müller and Ruppert of the camp staff, also by prisoners Rehder and Olszański).

Il Re’s laziness, or dishonesty, is the stuff of “revisionist” history.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:49 pm

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Wachsmann on KL Lublin (pp 319-322), differentiating the different phases of the camp's development and its changing role:

1. Like Auschwitz, Majdanek was a KL and death camp - but followed a somewhat different course.

2. As with Auschwitz, Jews began to be transported to KL Lublin in spring 1942; also, the Jewish transports to Lublin were meant to substitute for the Soviet POWs who'd originally been slated as the slave laborers. (Wachsmann's prisoner data is close to that of Kranz.) Further, KL Lublin was expanded in summer-fall 1942 to accommodate female prisoners.

3. Conditions in the camp were atrocious and mortality was high, especially during 1942. Selections were carried out in the camp, especially during the typhus epidemic during 1942. During July, 1,500 prisoners were taken to a nearby forest and shot. By the turn of the year, the crematory was overburdened with the number of corpses. Prisoners were pulled from the infirmary and elsewhere for such actions.

4. However, through most of 1942 KL Lublin was not a death camp; when Lublin ghetto was cleared, for example, 30,000 Jews were taken not to KL Lublin but to Bełzec to be gassed. Also, as noted in my post linked to just above, "deportation trains en route to Belzec and Sobibor occasionally interrupted their journey in Lublin. Here, Jewish men considered fit for labor were pulled out and sent to Majdanek for construction work; the others remained on the trains to death camps." It was only when Bełzec was closed down at the end of 1942 that KL Lublin was given the additional function of mass murder of Jews.

5. Thus, the gas chamber behind the bathhouse was completed "around October" 1942; it utilized Zyklon B and CO. For the first time, Jews were selected for murder on arrival, as at Auschwitz. A large killing spree occurred during a 2-week period in December 1942 when 1000s of Polish Jews were gassed at KL Lublin. In spring 1943, children were also brought to the camp, as were Jews from the Warsaw ghetto in its final destruction. As with Auschwitz, at Majdanek women, children, and the elderly were selected for the gas chambers - the victims undressed in the bathhouse before being murdered.

6. Wachsmann describes the handling of corpses as I've done in this thread, another source rubbishing Hunt's ploy regarding the location of the crematory, stressing that the bodies of victims were generally burned in the open air, many of them "burned in large pyres in a forest, some distance away." Wachsmann explains that SS Oberscharführer Erich Muhsfeldt "had traveled to Auschwitz in February 1943" to learn from SS there about corpse incineration.

7. KL Lublin never became central to the Final Solution as did Auschwitz-Birkenau; "The WVHA and RSHA managers regarded Auschwitz as a far more convenient target for transports from western and central Europe, while most Jews rounded up in the General Government were deported to Globocnik's death camps." Why did Auschwitz become so important versus Majdanek? - "its greater proximity, better transport links, and superior infrastructure" (p 296). So here is another researcher dismissing Hunt's cavalier and misleading assumption of an identity between Auschwitz and KL Lublin - and his denial of gassings at Majdanek because the history/process didn't mirror that of Auschwitz.

(Wachsmann uses testimony I've not seen - from Dionys Lenard, a male Slovakian Jew, from an unnamed Polish prisoner, and from Rywka Awronska, a Jewish woman from Warsaw. This testimony is in good alignment with familiar testimonies.)

Wachsmann's coverage is similar to, if less detailed than, what I've outlined in this thread; what the USHMM Encyclopedia maintains; Winstone's material; and what Silberklang wrote. It leaves no room for Hunt's claims and Nessie's attempts at "selling" them.

Hunt apparently made his video without the help of either actual sources or much thought - his arguments are, as with his Treblinka video, transparently designed to deceive. On key points (e.g., the route prisoners took through the bathhouse, corpse burning), Hunt simply made up BS. I'm still confused as to why Nessie is convinced by such fictionalizing.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:35 am

KL Lublin, IMO is a side-note to the Holocaust.

As for Muhsfeldt's visit to A-B in Feb 43: Were the concrete Kremas built by then?

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:45 am

Jeff_36 wrote:KL Lublin, IMO is a side-note to the Holocaust...
I see it as one of the multicolored pieces of the mosaic?
As for Muhsfeldt's visit to A-B in Feb 43: Were the concrete Kremas built by then?
IIRC, the new ones were under construction then with the first one to operate in March 1943?
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:46 am

Jeff_36 wrote:KL Lublin, IMO is a side-note to the Holocaust.
It was never a main site for extermination of the Jews, which underscores that the camp's functions, as presented time and again in this thread, diverged from (1) the Soviet descriptions of Majdanek following the camp's liberation and (2) Auschwitz and the Einsatz Reinhard camps. Wachsmann puts it pretty much as you do: "As a Holocaust death camp, too, Majdanek stood in the second rank." (p 322)
Jeff_36 wrote:As for Muhsfeldt's visit to A-B in Feb 43: Were the concrete Kremas built by then?
I may have been unclear: Wachsmann's implication is that Muhsfeldt's visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau was to learn about open-air incineration, which was the main way corpses were disposed of at Majdanek during late 1942 and 1943, including the victims of Operation Harvest Festival.

The new crematorium - the one whose location Hunt uses as "proof" there were no gassings at the somewhat distant B&D No. 41 - was never in operation, as I explained to Nessie upthread, until the time the gassing program had ended. Wachsmann is more precise about two key dates. First, the final gassing action occurred in September 1943 (p 331, the gassing program lasted from sometime after October 1942 until then, just about a year). Second, the new crematorium was still not complete by the time of Operation Harvest Festival, 3 November 1943 - construction began in September 1943 and was continuing at the time of the mass shooting (p 331). Again, Hunt's whackadoo claim that the location of B&D No. 41 being so far from the cremation facility shows that B&D No. 41 could not have been a gassing site ignores the simple fact that the cremation building he's discussing didn't exist at the time of gassings were being carried out!
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:56 am

scrmbldggs wrote: IIRC, the new ones were under construction then with the first one to operate in March 1943?
See my post above. Upthread, citing Kranz and the court indictment in the 3rd Majdanek trial, I'd posted on this sequence, with only minor (a couple weeks) discrepancies to Wachsmann's dates.

I swear, Hunt's hatchet job on Majdanek - his own version of Mr Peabody's "improbable history," with its WABAC "should-have-been machine" - is every bit as buffoonish and dishonest as his Treblinka transit camp disaster flick.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:03 pm

I was referring to the A-B kremas. It would not make sense to learn about open air incineration at a camp that no longer used it.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:28 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:I was referring to the A-B kremas. It would not make sense to learn about open air incineration at a camp that no longer used it.
Well, they would still have known the process. But they apparently also did at that time (also later again behind Krema V):
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/augas.html wrote: Crematorium I

Crematorium I operated [at Auschwitz] from August 15, 1940 until July 1943...


Bunker No. 1
...
The bunker contained two provisional gas chambers. It operated from the early months of 1942 until the spring and summer of 1943, when four new buildings with gas chambers and crematorium furnaces came into use in Birkenau concentration camp. At that time, Bunker No. 1 was demolished and the adjacent burning pits were filled in and landscaped.
(Emphasis mine)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:23 am

Ok makes sense. Thanks. (Insert "Thanks from: Jeff_36")

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:49 am

y"Thanks from: Jeff_36"w
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:59 am

Jeff_36 wrote:I was referring to the A-B kremas. It would not make sense to learn about open air incineration at a camp that no longer used it.
Ah, but, yes, it would because Birkenau had resident experts who could be consulted at any time - but also open-air cremations were still happening at Birkenau during the early part of 1943 because the new crematoria there didn't go into operation until March and June 1943. Also, the bunkers stayed in operation into the transition period. The very first incineration in one of the new crematoria was in March, attended by SS dignitaries - the month after Muhsfeldt's visit.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:59 am

And, argh, scrmbldggs beat me to it. GMTA!
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:27 am

Yeah but... there's always room for improvement. Your posts are so much better than mine. :-D


They can be a bit fuzzy.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:15 pm

I just received from the Majdanek Museum a short booklet called "Majdanek: A Guide to the Historical Buildings."

There are some interesting things in the booklet.

1) The information indirectly supports the account I've given in this post and others of the original and new crematories at Majdanek - that the original crematorium in Middle Field I, much closer to the gas chambers than the new crematorium (and near the laundry and drying room), stopped working about the time (fall 1942) at which the gas chambers went into operation; that the new crematorium wasn't operational until fall 1942 when the gassing had stopped, and that during the height of the exterminations, including Operation Harvest Festival, corpses of murder victims were incinerated in pits, out of doors (burning sites included Krepiec forest outside the camp). This information exposes as attempted sleight of hand Hunt's objection that the location of the surviving crematorium so far from the gas chambers was impractical.

2) There is testimony, and explanation, paralleling what Kranz wrote concerning Bad und Desinfektion I & II, namely, that men and women used separate bathhouses and that selections occurred in no. 42 (women's) as well as no. 41 (men's):
The bathhouse in barracks no 42 was designated in the autumn 1942 [that is, about the time the gassing began] as showers for women. Changing rooms were set up along both sides of the shower room. Four cabins for disinfecting clothing with steam were installed next to the boilers. The shower room was also a place for the selection of Jewish women and girls. From there, they were led to the gas chambers in the bunker behind the men's bathhouse.
(p 15) This suggests, as argued in this thread, that the earlier provisional layout for no. 42 which Mattogno relied on was modified in fall 1942 as the purpose of the building came to include murder via gassing in the bunker behind the barracks next door.

3) The booklet has additional testimonies about gassing to those I quoted in the thread (e.g., Ettrich, Ruppert, Rehder, Fischer, Olszański, Müller): Stefania Perzanowska (p 16), SS- Rottenführer Otto Henschke (p 17), Janina Ludwiczak (p 17). Perzanowska's testimony identifies SS orderlies and Dr Blancke as conducting selections (see below).

4) The booklet has the testimony of Jerzy Kwiatkowski about the cremation pyres for incineration of the bodies of prisoners who'd died from illness or were murdered (p 18).

5) The booklet collects testimonies on selections. Reading these testimonies alongside others, we can propose the following ways in which prisoners were selected for gassing (witnesses below taken from the booklet, Kranz, the USC Shoah Foundation, and other sources):

- selections among arriving prisoners occurring in the Rosengarten also known as Selection Square (near the complex housing nos. 41 & 42, the pavilion, and the gas chamber bunker (Zacheusz Pawlak, Kwiatkowski, Symcha Turkieltaub, Dora Minc, Radiewicz Walentyna Nikołajewna, Halina Birenbaum née Grynsztajn, Irene Shapiro)

- square in front of nos. 41 and 42 (Jerzy Kwiatkowski, Radiewicz Walentyna Nikołajewna)

- inside 41 and 42 - before showering (Frieda Aaron, Helen Greenbaum, Adam Boren, Lusia Haberfeld)

- inside 41 (possibly 42?) - after showering (Stefania Perzanowska, Frida Binder)

- in specific fields around the camp (Middle Field II, where the coal heap was located, also served as a holding area and selection site according to Kwiatkowski, Frieda Kliger, Karol Muszkatel, Regina Fingier, Adam Frydman, Natan Żelechower) (infirmary and ambulatory clinic, Jerzy Kwiatkowski, good discussion in Kranz, p 51) (Interfield V - children - Maria Bielacka-Szczepanska, Jerzy Kwiatkowski)

- other selections/prior to entering the camp (Miriam Moskowitz, Frania Konopielko Griegoriewna, Irene Shapiro)

- other selections/around the camp (Estelle Laughlin, Henry Frankel, Esther Rosenberg, Anna Heilman, Rose Minsky, Frida Binder, Jack Schwartz, Rywka Rybak, Danuta Brzosko-Medryk, Hanna Mierzejewska)

6) Execution sites included not only the gas chambers behind nos. 41 and 42 but the following: in the old crematory in Middle Field I, described as a place of execution when there were bottlenecks in the gas chambers; ditches beyond Interfield V and the new crematorium (site of Operation Harvest Festival shootings).
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:38 pm

One argument of Hunt's which Nessie highlighted as compelling concerned the (“impossible”) location of the gas chamber-bathhouse complex relative to the new crematorium, near Field V at KL Lublin:
Nessie wrote:If it was purpose built as a homicidal gas chamber, the layout and location far away from the crematorium is very odd.
So compelling was Hunt's argument to Nessie that, along with some other key points which have been debunked in this thread, Nessie wrote that
Nessie wrote:If I was a court, Hunt has done a defence job that means I would never convict as the prosecution's evidence is so dubious.
I've explained, and cited sources showing, that the gassing of Jewish prisoners was complete by the time new crematorium was completed and put into operation, in fall 1943, making Hunt’s argument absurd.

I also pointed out that open-pit incineration of corpses was the favored method of disposing of dead bodies at KL Lublin during the extermination phase of the camp's existence. In Elissa Mailänder's book, Female SS Guards and Workaday Violence: The Majdanek Concentration Camp, 1942- 1944, these is an excellent overview of KL Lublin, its history, functions, role in the occupation of the East and in the genocide, and layout/organization. On p 113 we find a map of the camp with an indication for some "Open-Air Cremation Pits." I am guessing that by this point even Nessie - who acted as mouthpiece here for Hunt's deceptions - can tell us where those pits were located, in relation to the gas chambers. There's no need for me to scan and post the map Mailänder uses as it conforms to other maps readily available to Hunt, and Nessie, had either of them thought to consider this problem for more than a millisecond.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:17 am

Hunt seems to have had little knowledge of the camp. Traynor referred to him as having an encyclopedic knowledge of KL Lublin LOL not so much.

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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:53 am

He figured out enough to fool people who knew incredibly little about the camp. That's what passes for revisionist greatness: knowing just enough, and distorting it, to fool the uninformed.
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:59 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:- in specific fields around the camp . . . infirmary and ambulatory clinic . . .
Let's add some detail to this method of selection, with details on other selection methods (around the camp, incoming transports) to follow:

- over time, there were infirmaries/clinics in KL Lublin in Fields I (by September 1943 the entire left side), II (for Soviet POWs), III, IV, and V (women's infirmary)

- the infirmaries were staffed by SS physicians (who oversaw general operations and had the final say in determinations of patients' health and work capability), SS orderlies (who made selections of prisoners unable to work), German and Austrian Kapos (who supervised prisoner-physicians and prisoner-orderlies), prisoner-physicians (mostly Poles, who diagnosed and tried with limited resources to treat sick prisoners), prisoner-orderlies (who assisted the prisoner-physicians)

- medical supplies, space for sick prisoners, and food were scarce in the infirmaries; there were no surgical facilities; disease was rampant in the camp and even SS guards had high rates of serious, long-term illness; as a result little could be done for seriously sick prisoners - and being sent to an infirmary in camp parlance was being sent to a "terminal ward"

- the problems of overcrowding peaked in April-May 1943 when Jews transported to KL Lublin from Bialystok and Warsaw raised the number of inmates in the camp to its peak

- selections in the infirmaries regularly removed inmates who were the sickest - "Those who could no longer rise out of bed were taken away. Each time, the prisoner-physician was asked if the patient could be cured or not. . . . Over time, the process grew even more brutal. Anyone who couldn't walk was assigned to the group that would be gassed. Decisions were made on the fly by the Kapo and the SDG (SS nurse orderly)." (testimony of Polish prisoner-physician Jan Novak)

- the head physician during 1943 was SS-Hauptsturmführer Heinrich Schmidt; key personnel involved in making selections were the two SS orderlies Unterscharführer Günther Konietzny and Unterscharführer Wilhelm Reinartz (prisoner testimonies described Konietzny as brutal and enthusiastic whilst Reinartz was seen as reluctant and having a troubled conscience); German prisoner-orderly Ludwig Benden assisted the two SS men in selections; the SS physicians were mostly a "passive presence" during selections

(Mailänder, pp 160-163)

-
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:- . . . selections/around the camp . . .
Mailänder focuses on selections during roll-call, which the short Majdanek book summarized above didn't focus on. Mailänder quotes from testimony not utilized by the authors of the Majdanek book, both prisoner and guard testimony. This different focus may be due to Mailänder's theme, which is the women's camp and the work-experiences of the female guards at KL Lublin. Indeed, Mailänder mentions that as with the infirmary selections, selections around the camp were under the direction of the SS physicians. In the case of selections around the camp, however, the SS physicians were supported in selections by SS field and block leaders. Mailänder writes that "In the women's camp, the Aufseherinnen [females guards employed by the SS] carried out the selections under the direction of Chief Guard Else Ehrich during the daily roll call." As with the selections of male prisoners, for these selections Hermann Hackmann, the overseer of the prisoners' compound, directed what times the selections should occur and how many prisoners should be taken from each field. Prisoner testimony quoted by Mailänder implies that besides roll-call selections, other methods were used.

- the head guard, Ehrich, was assisted in selections by field leader Hermine Braunsteiner (survivor testimony: "She could even select during roll call. If she didn't like the look of someone, if they were too weak, or too thin - then she was liable to say . . . : 'Away.'"

- SS men would accompany the Aufseherinnen during selections

- Dora Arend testified that Ausfeherin Hildegard Lächert would "fetch [prisoners] from the rows, yanking by the shoulders, or by their hair or ears. About ten to twenty women were pulled out. . . . [She] always had a smile on her face as she did her work. She used to always have a dog with her, and she struck our heads and faces in a dreadful manner with her thick, long whip."

- according to Ausfeherin Erna Pfannstiel, Ehrich and Braunsteiner walked the ranks of prisoners lined up for roll-call on Field V and "pointed at the prisoners, the women, with their finger or with a stick they were carrying to pick them out from the rest. The women then had to stand over to the side. . . . Then I saw Ehrich and Braunsteiner bring the women they had chosen away. They said they were bringing them to the bath. . . . But I knew the women would not be returning from the bath, because they were being taken next door to the gas chamber [the bunker behind no. 41 or 42]. Then we had to calm them down. We had to talk with them, and with hand gestures calm them down." (Mailänder concludes from other testimony that "hand gestures" were "slaps, blows, and other like gestures.") Perhaps the torture of Höss or beating of Morgen can explain Ausfeherin Pfannstiel's testimony about selections for gassing at KL Lublin?

(Mailänder, pp 163-164)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:- selections among arriving prisoners occurring in the Rosengarten also known as Selection Square . . .
Jewish prisoners arriving to the camp were selected for gassing, especially during 1943 up to the fall of that year (but having begun with large transports of Jews from Lublin in the later part of 1942). What follows is general/usual practice - as, we've seen, there were various practices for handling selections:

- arrivals and gassings were usually planned for the night-time to conceal them (there goes another of Hunt's mysterious conundrums, about secrecy - which, at the same time, fell apart, not due to the location of the gas chambers but because people talked - even residents of the city of Lublin heard about the gassing program in the camp, as did camp workers who didn't work in that area or need to know)

- selections of arriving prisoners generally took place in an area outside the camp perimeter (Georg Gröner, prisoner-functionary/Kapo, testifying about late 1942: "When prisoner transports arrived at the camp . . . the entire transport was usually brought to a fenced-in area behind the bathing facility [buildings no. 41 & 42]. I used to called the area the 'rose garden.' . . . Afterwards, the camp physician, camp commandant, and camp compound leader [Hermann Hackmann] sorted the inmates into groups. . . . During the sorting (selection), the prisoners had to walk past the physician, who either sent them from the 'rose garden' to the bathing facility, or sent them over to an empty area on the other side of the 'rose garden,'" where they waited. Those selected for gassing were made to wait, according to Mailänder, summarizing Gröner's testimony, "in front of the gas chambers." Gröner: "SS members stood in a cordon between the rose garden and the bathing facility so that no one could escape. In the bathing facility, the prisoners first showered and then were given their prisoner's uniforms. Afterwards, they were distributed to the various fields. . . . Afterwards, the Jewish people who had remained behind in the rose garden were gassed.")

- as an aside, some selections were carried out right in front of the gas chambers (Aufseherinnen Ehrich and Braunsteiner seem to have been involved in what guard Erna Pfannstiel called "delicate situations. By 'delicate situations' I mean situations at the bath"; Pfannstiel told Aufseherin Hertha Ehlert that, quoting Mailänder, "a gas chamber was located on the other side of the bathing barrack," taking her to the gas chamber and showing it to her)

- among those arriving to the camp, selections focused on "the younger women, the older ones, and the women with children" (statement of Chela Apelbaum); although selections for gassing involved mainly Jews, Soviet POWs and Polish prisoners were sometimes selected for the gas chambers

- by spring 1943, selections of Jews were systematic and, according to Mailänder, the norm for arriving transports bringing Jews to KL Lublin

- violence against the arriving Jews was a common feature of the selections; since guards rotated duty, there was not a permanent team that carried out all the selections of arriving prisoners

(Mailänder, pp 164-165, 174-176)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:18 am

Very informative details. Thanks, Stat Mech!
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:46 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So I got a PM asking me a good question about Majdanek - did any of the SS staff ever admit to the gas chambers there? The simple answer is yes, some did. . . .
I've summarized material from Kranz and Mailänder above answering this question. In addition to gassing, as has been presented in this thread, at KL Lublin the SS used what Konrad Morgen called "the old, tried system" (open-air shooting) as well as some other ways of killing prisoners designated for death. Murder, in fact, was the major "medical" intervention for sick prisoners and others unable to work (on account of age, infirmity, etc).

- lethal injection: sometimes inmates in the infirmaries were "helped to die," even those not in serious condition, by injections of phenol, gasoline, or evipan; the injections were given by SS orderlies (Reinartz was identified as one SS man giving lethal injections) - lethal injection was not a good method to eliminate sick inmates during epidemics

- shootings: major killing actions before October 1942 (gas chambers in operation) took place just outside the camp as well as in the Krepiecki forest, which lay about 12 km from KL Lublin in the direction of Chelm; camp compound leader Hackmann testified after the war that Globocnik ordered in 1941, thought Commandant Karl Otto Koch, that prisoners who had typhoid - there was an outbreak - "were to be liquidated"; SS man Erich Muhsfeldt corroborated Hackmann's testimony and added that "The only thing that was done to combat the epidemic was to shoot sick inmates"; murdering inmates who might pass along disease was seen as an acceptable "hygienic" measure (rather than implementation of conventional disease-prevention protocols); in summer 1942 - following the swelling of the camp with arrivals of Jews from Austria, Slovakia, the Protectorate and the Altreich - another typhoid outbreak resulted in large-scale shootings of Jews in the Krepiecki forest (testimony from a Polish inmate, SS perpetrators and guards, and residents of a nearby village - the mass graves for the shootings were dug by Soviet POWs and Soviet POWs spread a layer of lime over the dead bodies in the pits; the shooters were mostly volksdeutsche, many of them auxiliaries from Ukraine; among the Jews who were shot, according to Hackmann, were those sent by Globocnik and never registered in the camp)

- Aktion Erntefest, 3 November 1943: 18,000 Jews (8,000 from KL Lublin and 10,000 marched to Majdanek from Poniatowa and Trawniki labor camps) were shot; another 24,000 Jews at other Lublin camps were shot at the same time; these murders were executed by detachments of SD and police battalions sent to the camp for this purpose (some regular KL Lublin guards seem to have been kept from the murder scene and told little, whilst others were used in assembly and conveyance of the victims to the shooting area, which was at the trenches dug behind Field V and near the new crematory) (Aufseherin Alice Orlowski: "I remember the date November 3, 1943, very well. . . . After the operation was over, we saw that there were no more Jews in the camp")

- hanging in the old crematorium: Josef M, a German Kapo, witnessed murders in the original crematorium - under Muhsfeldt, head of the crematorium; Muhsfeldt's assistant, Robert Seitz, testified that these killings involved small numbers of prisoners, usually sent over from an infirmary; Kapo Fischer with his crew performed the hangings; an Aufseherin, Luzie H, by accident came on the aftermath of one such hanging, seeing the bodies on the floor after having been cut down from the nooses (there were no such hangings in the new crematorium which began operation in fall 1943)

- gassing: the gas chambers were planned as early as July 1942 and completed in October 1942; as noted, I've summarized witness testimony above, along with all the other material in the thread on gassings, so just a few additional points will be added here: 1) Mailänder, citing Barbara Schwindt's research, concludes that it is impossible to rule out gassings in the "stained" room in B&B no. 41; 2) gassings were overseen by SS-Oberscharführer Anton Endress assisted by SS orderlies Wilhelm Reinartz (above) and Hans Perschon; infirmary staff were called upon when needed; 3) Reinartz testified that gassings occurred on order of the camp commandant; 4) those selected for murder had to undress in the bathhouse next to the gas chambers from where they were forced into the gas chambers; 5) the SS physicians monitored the gassing process; 6) Aufseherin Luzie H testified to seeing bodies of victims of a gassing jammed into a trailer attached to a tractor (Soviet POWs were doing the corpse loading); 6) the maximum number of inmates who could be murdered in the gas chambers in a single day was 700 (thus, for Aktion Erntefest, "the old, tried system," which produced 18,000 murders on 3 November 1943)

(Mailänder, pp 165-176)
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Re: Hunts Majdanek film.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:54 am

Some of those Soviet POWs from Lublin-Majdanek were later sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau, correct?
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