November 21st is False Confession Day.

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November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:48 pm

Since one of the keystones of Holocaust Belief are a handful of confused "confessions,"
it is useful to look take a minute to look at some impressive statistics on confessions.

http://www.goodspeaks.org/event/false-confession-day" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Soviet Prosecutor,
"We have no physical evidence of 6,000,000 bodies.
We have no documents.
We have no photographs.
We have no Order.
But we can get lots and lots of confessions.

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:07 am

David the insane holocaust denier cult member wrote:Since one of the keystones of Holocaust Belief are a handful of confused "confessions,"
David? You ran away for a month last time. Mary has run away forever. Answer my previous questions.

Why do 100% of both Germans and Jewish slave workers give the same account of the holocaust, even though they were enemies and in most cases never met?

Do you still claim a secret Jewish/Soviet "conspiracy" gathered all these people at a top secret meeting in Russia and gave then scripts of exactly what they had to say?

Please explain your current insane "working theory" in detail.

:D

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:09 am

So when David can't make headway against the totality of the evidence, he disappears for a month, hoping we will forget his lies and incompetence, only to return with a thoroughly mendacious post. We have, in fact, as we have demonstrated in thread after thread, physical evidence, documents, photographs, and orders.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So when David can't make headway against the totality of the evidence, he disappears for a month, hoping we will forget his lies and incompetence, only to return with a thoroughly mendacious post.
Poor poor David. His "best buddy" has abandoned him. Mary went off and joined a UFO cult and didn't even say "goodbye" to the holocaust denial cult.

Technically, I'm not sure if "one person", David, can comprise a cult. I think other terms may be more useful like "David is just a complete idiot"
.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by TJrandom » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:20 am

The same scenario is playing out in Japan, now that the confessors have finally died. They have now been accused of having lied, since no physical evidence or documentation can be found… even though their accounts as kidnappers match the accusations of the girls who were kidnapped for sexual servitude to our imperial army. And in an instant – rape and sexual enslavement during war didn`t happen, but instead girls 12 and up were simply prostitutes, plying their trade. Right…. Oh, but it of course helps that documents which may have been in existance were long ago destroyed, and are otherwise now proposed for `protection` by a new states secrets law.

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:44 pm

I hope that David, rather than spouting off with empty charges and claims, will show us how in major scholarly studies of the Holocaust and Third Reich, starting with say Hilberg, false confessions were relied on - and how (giving examples) the major scholars fail to cross-check, correlate, and analyze confessions. In short, I hope that David will show just the degree to which shoddy scholarship, reliant on false confessions, compromises what we know about the Holocaust and the Third Reich.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Nessie » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:58 pm

David wrote:Since one of the keystones of Holocaust Belief are a handful of confused "confessions...."
He has not even finished his first sentence and the first lie appears :lol:
David wrote:it is useful to look take a minute to look at some impressive statistics on confessions.

http://www.goodspeaks.org/event/false-confession-day" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Soviet Prosecutor,
"We have no physical evidence of 6,000,000 bodies.
We have no documents.
We have no photographs.
We have no Order.
But we can get lots and lots of confessions.
He then finishes of the post with 5 lies in a row. Wow!
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:55 pm

Nessie wrote: He then finishes of the post with 5 lies in a row. Wow!
David's opening post, simply copied the theme from Berg's post on RODOH on the 17NOV14 and posted it here. David even copied the links. David is obviously still in love with Berg and copies whatever Berg does to get Berg's attention.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:06 am

David needs to explain how his claim works. He can start by telling us how in his view the following important classic and current historians of the Holocaust rely on confessions as a keystone of their interpretation and arguments - and fail to use documents, data, photographs, physical evidence, etc.:

* Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, three volumes
* Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942
* Longerich, Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews
* Silberklang, Gates of Tears: The Holocaust in the Lublin District
* Blatman, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide
* Bryant, Eyewitness to Genocide: The Operation Reinhard Death Camp Trials, 1955-1966
* Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, Auschwitz 1940-1945. Central Issues in the History of the Camp (5 volumes)
* Montague, Chelmno and the Holocaust: The History of Hitler's First Death Camp

These are the sorts of works David claims are based mainly on confessions, are the products of True Believers, and stand in need of revision. David denies these works and many other well-researched studies of Nazi crimes, but let's have him start with this sampling, a decent representation of important books on the Holocaust, with a bit of an emphasis on policy and death camps.

David can now tell us how these
keystones of Holocaust Belief are a handful of confused "confessions"
or, er, contain little beyond
lots and lots of confessions.

And he can give us, for a change, references to actual materials that scholars have produced instead of his usual litany of vacuous and generalized claims . . .
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Gord » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:40 pm

Nessie wrote:
David wrote:Since one of the keystones of Holocaust Belief are a handful of confused "confessions...."
He has not even finished his first sentence and the first lie appears :lol:
David wrote:it is useful to look take a minute to look at some impressive statistics on confessions.

http://www.goodspeaks.org/event/false-confession-day" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Soviet Prosecutor,
"We have no physical evidence of 6,000,000 bodies.
We have no documents.
We have no photographs.
We have no Order.
But we can get lots and lots of confessions.
He then finishes of the post with 5 lies in a row. Wow!
I thought "we have no Order" and "we can get lots of confessions" might be true.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by TJrandom » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:17 pm

Gord wrote: I thought "we have no Order" and "we can get lots of confessions" might be true.
That IMO would be worse... meaning that all of those involved in the systematic murder of millions were working on their own, and not following orders. Not that following orders was a legitimate defense, but still....

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:22 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote: I thought "we have no Order" and "we can get lots of confessions" might be true.
That IMO would be worse... meaning that all of those involved in the systematic murder of millions were working on their own, and not following orders. Not that following orders was a legitimate defense, but still....
I think it refers to this?
.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:15 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote: I thought "we have no Order" and "we can get lots of confessions" might be true.
That IMO would be worse... meaning that all of those involved in the systematic murder of millions were working on their own, and not following orders. Not that following orders was a legitimate defense, but still....
I think it refers to this?
Above I asked David about what it is he's revising and mentioned Longerich as someone whose work David needs to deal with in the light of his empty OP. Based on his expert work for the defense in Irving's suit against Lipstadt, Longerich wrote a book-length essay on The Unwritten Order and Hitler's central and decisive role in the genocide. This isn't the book I asked David to comment on - Holocaust is a more recent study and not focused, like The Unwritten Order, on Hitler's role in the process, but this earlier work is pertinent to the point raised here.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:57 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Why do 100% of both Germans and Jewish slave workers give the same account of the holocaust, even though they were enemies and in most cases never met?
The various "eye witnesses" give wildly different stories.
What did the "gas chamber" of Treblinka look like?


Eichmann-
A certain Captain of the Security Police that is to say of the Order Police greeted us. There was also a number of workers there. The captain of the Order Police - this surprised me considerably - was without his uniform coat, and his sleeves were rolled up, and it seemed that he was somehow participating actively in the work.

This I still remember. And they were erecting wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three, this I no longer know exactly. The size - a sort of house with two or three rooms, I would say of that size , not large; and apparently
- but I do not know this any more - Hoefle had given instructions to this Police Captain that he should explain this installation to me.


Abraham Krzepicki was deported to the Treblinka death camp on the 25 August 1942 and he described the first gas chambers:

“But the longish, not too large brick building standing in the middle of the “Death Camp” had a strange fascination for me, this was the gas chamber.

Now I noticed that, spread over the flat roof of the building, there was a green wire net whose edges extended slightly beyond the building’s walls. Beneath the net, on top of the roof I could see a tangle of pipes.


Treblinka survivor Oscar Strawczynski ..
Over in Camp 2 there was also the “bath.” It was a large concrete building standing on a cement platform. On its roof and visible from a distance was a wooden Star of David. Running through the middle of the building was a corridor. The entrance was covered with a red curtain.


So your "100% same" accounts of the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
have "small wooden huts," "a large concrete building," and a "not too large brick building."

Three 5 year-olds asked to describe Santa Claus would have greater
similarity in their accounts.
The type of "Gas."
The various types of "gas" allegedly used at Treblinka are as extreme.
Eichmann claimed "Potassium cyanide or acid, it has the name of some acid, the acid of potassium cyanide.

Treblinka survivor Oscar Strawczynski claimed a vacuum system,
The doors are hermetically sealed, the motors start to work. The air from inside is sucked out and fumes from burnt gasoline forced in. The cries from inside can be heard for about for about ten minutes and then it becomes quiet.

The "eye witnesses" in the official Polish report,
"The victims slip and fall, and they cannot get up for new numbers of forcibly driven victims fall upon them. The chief throws small children into the chambers over the heads of the women. When the execution chambers are filled the doors are hermetically closed and the slow suffocation of living people begins, brought about by the steam issuing from the numerous vents in the pipes. At the beginning, stifled cries penetrate to the outside; gradually they quiet down and 15 minutes later the execution is complete.

Some others claimed diesel exhaust
Others claimed exhaust from gasoline engines.

Steam, vacuums, diesels, gasoline engines.
Five accused witches describing the Devil would have been more consistent.






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False Confession Day.

Post by David » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:(giving examples) the major scholars fail to cross-check, correlate, and analyze confessions. In short, I hope that David will show just the degree to which shoddy scholarship, reliant on false confessions, compromises what we know about the Holocaust and the Third Reich.
Hello SM- Let's take what was at one time the keystone confession at the Nuremberg Show Trial, that of Rudolph Hoess.
Specifically, let's focus on "The Start of the Holocaust" as confessed to by
Hoess.

"I was suddenly ordered by Himmler's adjutant to repon directly to the Reichsfuhrer SS1 in Berlin. Contrary to his usual custom, his adjutant was not in the room. Himmler greeted me with the following: "The Fuhrer has ordered the Final Solution of the Jewish question. We the SS have to carry out this order. The existing extermination sites in the East2 are not in a position to carry out these intended operations on a large scale. I have, therefore, chosen Auschwitz for this purpose."

So, to cross check the "confession", can any Believer tell us the DAY that
Hoess received the incredible order that changed his life?...in Berlin, in the office
of the Reichsfuhrer?

Thank you.




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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by TJrandom » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:39 am

Why stop at the day... why not the hour and minute too? Oh, and the color of the walls, what everyone was wearing, what they ate for breakfast....

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Gord » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:17 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
TJrandom wrote:
Gord wrote: I thought "we have no Order" and "we can get lots of confessions" might be true.
That IMO would be worse... meaning that all of those involved in the systematic murder of millions were working on their own, and not following orders. Not that following orders was a legitimate defense, but still....
I think it refers to this?
Yes. Some people make it a big deal that there's no "Order" on paper with Hitler's signature known to be in existence. Some have conjectured such an Order must have existed at some point; others have argued that Hitler's verbal Order would have been sufficient. But to some Holocaust deniers in the past, the lack of such a written Order implied that Hitler never knew about the extermination of the Jews, if there ever was such an extermination at all.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:32 am

David wrote:So your "100% same" accounts of the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
have "small wooden huts," "a large concrete building," and a "not too large brick building."
Stop lying. Let's just take one of your lies.

You quote Krzepicki saying that the gas chamber he saw at the camp was made of brick. He would have seen that structure, indeed the original building, sometime between 25 August and 12 September, the 18-day period during which Krzepicki was in Treblinka. The new gas chambers were constructed under Erwin Lambert's direction at the end of August into early September. Krzepecki escaped from the camp shortly afterwards, on 12 September.

You quote Eichmann as saying that the gas chambers at Treblinka were wooden huts. But you forgot this part of Eichmann's testimony, which came just before what you quoted:
we travelled from Lublin. I no longer recall what was the name of that place. I am confusing this, for I am unable to say whether it was called Treblinka or otherwise. Truly I no longer have an idea where I was taken to then. This I don't know any more. But this could have been established, I imagine, since there are other testimonies on this subject, and through them it would certainly be possible to check this. For I am not the only person to know of these matters. I reached this place and there was something in the form of a forest.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 10-01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eichmann was unable to pinpoint when his visit to Lublin and Globocnik's camp took place except that he recalled
that it must have been at the end of the summer - in autumn
and that it was during . . . 1941. Frankly, Eichmann isn't clear about when he went and to which camp he went. Eichmann may even have been at Belzec, where the original gas chambers, three in number, were in a wooden barrack. (Cesarini, in Becoming Eichmann, pp 98-99, concludes that Eichmann's various accounts are
fragmented and often contradictory
but that this visit took him to
possibly Belzec . . . under construction in woods some distance from Lublin.
Recall Eichmann's reporting that
they were erecting wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three.)
Longerich OTOH believes that the camp was Treblinka, only later, Eichmann having scrambled the time line of his visit, partly on the ground that elsewhere in his testimony Eichmann changes from wooden huts to "cottages" like the ones at Auschwitz (Holocaust, p 263; see also Browning, Origins of the Final Solution pages 362-366 for an explanation of Eichmann's testimony more in line with Cesarini's) The testimony you quote from Eichmann is useless for specifics about Treblinka in late summer 1942.

Last you say that Oscar Strawczynski described
the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
as a concrete building. Have you read Strawczynski's diary or just the excerpts at HEART? I ask because Strawczynski, according to his diary, didn't arrive at Treblinka from Czestochowa until October 1942 - over a month after the first gas chambers had already been replaced by the new structure for mass murder! Strawczynski began his account with a description of his arrival at Treblinka:
It was the day after Sukkoth, October 5,1942. . . . Although utterly exhausted after 24 hours in the tightly packed cattle cars, we shivered with terror when the train stopped and we heard frightful shouts, 'Out! Out! . . .' In the eyes of my wife, I recognize that finally even she has begun to believe the horrible rumors about the gas factory beyond Malkinia. . . .
(p 129) As you recall, from this time line of the camp, the large transports from Czestochowa went to Treblinka from 21 September through 8 October (also discussed in this forum here). Last, Strawczynski explained in his diary that he never saw the gas chambers; in general, he explained, those inmates
in Camp 1 were strictly forbidden to enter Camp 2,
so Strawczynski heard about the upper camp from a worker who had been an inmate there before the transports began and a carpenter who, like Wiernik, had worked in the upper camp for some months.

You tried to have us believe that Krzepicki, Eichmann, and Strawzynski gave different descriptions of the capital F First Treblinka gas chambers. But this is what you are stuck with:
- Krzepecki's report of his first-hand observation in late August 1942 that Treblinka's first gas chamber was made of brick. This matches the testimony of a Polish laborer - who while working on the RR extension observed the construction of a "building [that] was built of bricks and concrete" which he learned "contained people-extermination chambers" (HC White Paper, p 295).
- Eichmann's poor memory, and dodging and weaving, leaving a muddled testimony about a camp that may have been Belzec, may have been under construction in 1941, may have been visited during a month in autumn, and may have had wooden huts or cottages like those at Auschwitz - in short, observations of something that clearly was not Treblinka's first gas chambers, those operating in August 1942.
- Strawczyinski's report from later fall 1942 (probably in December, when the camp was being "beautified") - well after his arrival 5 October which was itself well after the First Treblinka gas chambers, which Strawczynski never saw in any event, had been replaced with the new gas chambers - again, a description totally irrelevant to, in your words,
the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
to which you tell us Strawczynski's words pertain.

You claim three testimonies about the first gas chambers in Treblinka - but you have one (Krzepicki's) along with Eichmann's testimony possibly about Belzec and possibly about Treblinka's second gas chambers and Strawczynski's repetition of what two inmates told him sometime in fall 1942, after the first gas chambers had been replaced. A true David gem.

You can't even be a little bit honest.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:55 am

David wrote:[Hello SM- Let's take what was at one time the keystone confession at the Nuremberg Show Trial, that of Rudolph Hoess.
Specifically, let's focus on "The Start of the Holocaust" as confessed to by Hoess.
No, David. I asked you to show how important scholarly works use confessions as their "keystone," as you claimed.

Go ahead: how do scholars explain the evolution of Jewish policy to the Final Solution, and to what extent are confessions versus documents, etc, the "keystone"?

You claimed it, now you defend your claim - using the 9 scholarly works I listed.

PS - since I've earlier told you how I interpret Hoess's testimony on this, I am not going to repeat myself here - rather, we stick to the matter at hand, which you introduced - confessions as the "keystone" for Believer history which ignores, you told us, documents, photographs, orders, and physical evidence. Get busy.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:07 am

TJrandom wrote:Why stop at the day... why not the hour and minute too? Oh, and the color of the walls, what everyone was wearing, what they ate for breakfast....
LOL - and for testimony I have already told him is in error and which has to be explained, not taken as gospel!
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Why do 100% of both Germans and Jewish slave workers give the same account of the holocaust, even though they were enemies and in most cases never met?
David the lying holocaust denier wrote: The various "eye witnesses" give wildly different stories.
David? The German, Polish and Jewish eyewitness reports all confirm mass executions by gas chambers.

Now don't run away and hide again,
try to answer my question. Why did Eichmann ( a German officer in Argentina) and Yankel Wiernik ( a Jewish slave worker in Treblinka II) both confirm the existence of mass murder in gas chambers?

Why do all the eyewitnesses, German, Jewish and
Polish, confirm mass executions in gas chambers?

Do you still claim there was a secret meeting
after the war, in Russia, and that Jewish communists secretly flew Eichmann, Weirnik and all 300 other eyewitnesses, so they could give them scripts?

Why isn't there one single eyewitness,
of any sort, who says "I saw some of the 3,000,000 Jews resettled in Russia or Belarus or Ukraine?".
:D

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:29 am

TJrandom wrote:Why stop at the day... why not the hour and minute too? Oh, and the color of the walls, what everyone was wearing, what they ate for breakfast....

The day is a good start as a confirmation. Although one would think that Hoess could remember if he met Himmler in the morning or afternoon.

To expand the topic, can you think of reasons why a propagandist would
keep the date of a meeting with Himmler vague?
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:32 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL - and for testimony I have already told him is in error and which has to be explained, not taken as gospel!
Hello SM…You seem to be always telling everyone they are in error
so I am sorry if I am a bit confused.
Are you claiming that Hoess' testimony was in error? If so, how so?
Thank you.


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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:05 am

David wrote: The day is a good start as a confirmation. Although one would think that Hoess could remember if he met Himmler in the morning or afternoon.
So you are sooooo stupid, you claim that Hoess should remember the time of a meeting with Himmler, yet you simultaneously claim Hoess was tortured by British soldiers to give false testimony at the IMT, that Hoess still still got wrong because he couldn't remember. The judges dismissed his evidence.

Which is it, David? Has Hoess got a good or a poor memory? Can't make up your mind?

:D

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:08 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:LOL - and for testimony I have already told him is in error and which has to be explained, not taken as gospel!
Hello SM…You seem to be always telling everyone they are in error
so I am sorry if I am a bit confused.
Are you claiming that Hoess' testimony was in error? If so, how so?
Thank you.

We’ve gone over this before. Höss didn’t recall the day in summer 1941, of course, saying that he was "unable to recall the exact date." (see Longerich below, I know you smell a rat but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, truly . . . ) What's more important is that Höss’s postwar statements about this meeting contained inconsistencies and indicate, a cigar being a cigar, that he may have confused conversations that took place at different times.

In summer (June, I think) 1941 - before a decision was made for the extermination of Europe’s Jews - my view is that Höss and Himmler did discuss plans for Auschwitz but not as a center for the extermination of the Jews. Laurence Rees believes that the discussion may have focused on the IG Farben works (the timing is plausible for this), but the two men may have, as Höss recalled, discussed killing facilities - just not as part of the Final Solution. After all, the meeting was before Barbarossa and before the Einsatzgruppen actions in occupied USSR. IMO, it was also months before a decision to exterminate Europe's Jews was taken.

Further, in his affidavit IIRC, still dating this meeting to 1941, Höss recalled that the RFSS gave him the instruction at a time when three camps for the extermination of the Jews were already operating in the General-Gouvernement - but the first AR camp didn’t open until spring 1942. Höss also wrote elsewhere about the meeting with the RFSS - along the same lines - that Himmler explained the need to prepare for the FS at Auschwitz as due to the lack of capacity at the existing death camps in the East - again, months before any death camps existed.

So I think Höss was in error about what he discussed with Himmler in June 1941 and that discussion of the role of Auschwitz in the Final Solution was later.

The point, for this thread, is that historians have had to explain the inconsistencies in Höss's statements and figure out both what happened and why they exist. Breitman, e.g., accepts Höss's statement; Longerich doesn't and attributes it to bad memory - Höss habitually confusing years; Rees and van Pelt also believe that Höss misspoke; and so on.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by TJrandom » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:37 am

David wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Why stop at the day... why not the hour and minute too? Oh, and the color of the walls, what everyone was wearing, what they ate for breakfast....

The day is a good start as a confirmation. Although one would think that Hoess could remember if he met Himmler in the morning or afternoon.

To expand the topic, can you think of reasons why a propagandist would
keep the date of a meeting with Himmler vague?
Not sure what you are asking... but are you maybe saying that you met with Himmler but don`t remember the day?

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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:16 am

TJrandom wrote:Not sure what you are asking... but are you maybe saying that you met with Himmler but don`t remember the day?
No, it's heap funnier than that...

Hoess, a SS officer, ran the largest concentration camp and executes Jews in gas chambers, in Auschwitz. Himmler was the head of the SS and Hoess's commanding officer.

David is arguing that the commanders of the extermination camps suddenly decided, on their own volition, to build gas chambers and execute jews and magically trains were full of Jews were sent to extermination camps for this purpose. Amazingly, Himmler, according to David, was simply "sleep talking a fantasy dream" when a German officer secretly recorded Himmler clearly stating that he executed all the Jews in front of 300 Germans at a conference.

However David can't explain why he claims this.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:53 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:So your "100% same" accounts of the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
have "small wooden huts," "a large concrete building," and a "not too large brick building."
Stop lying. Let's just take one of your lies.

You quote Krzepicki saying that the gas chamber he saw at the camp was made of brick. He would have seen that structure, indeed the original building, sometime between 25 August and 12 September, the 18-day period during which Krzepicki was in Treblinka. The new gas chambers were constructed under Erwin Lambert's direction at the end of August into early September. Krzepecki escaped from the camp shortly afterwards, on 12 September.
??? You are confused on timing and as bumbling with the
facts as usual.
First, "dispatched SS-Scharführer Lorenz Hackenholt from Belzec death camp, to assist in the erection of the new gas chambers in Treblinka which were completed in September 1942.
So your "theory" requires that for the first two weeks Krzepicki was at Treblinka there
was no gas chamber. :roll: :roll:
What Krezepicki says is,
"The gas chamber and the new building–which was in the process of being built at the time and to which we were assigned as construction helpers-were made of brick."


Statistical Mechanic wrote: You quote Eichmann as saying that the gas chambers at Treblinka were wooden huts. But you forgot this part of Eichmann's testimony, which came just before what you quoted:
we travelled from Lublin. I no longer recall what was the name of that place. I am confusing this, for I am unable to say whether it was called Treblinka or otherwise. Truly I no longer have an idea where I was taken to then. This I don't know any more. But this could have been established, I imagine, since there are other testimonies on this subject, and through them it would certainly be possible to check this. For I am not the only person to know of these matters. I reached this place and there was something in the form of a forest.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eic ... 10-01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eichmann was unable to pinpoint when his visit to Lublin and Globocnik's camp took place except that he recalled
that it must have been at the end of the summer - in autumn
and that it was during . . . 1941. Frankly, Eichmann isn't clear about when he went and to which camp he went. Eichmann may even have been at Belzec, where the original gas chambers, three in number, were in a wooden barrack.
And you are forgetting the confirming part of Eichmann's
testimony.
Eichmann. Then let me speak now about this last point of the most terrible thing I have ever seen in the course of my life: It was Treblinka.
I also received an order. With Globocnik...I went to Globocnik ...on this occasion for the second time and [had] to report to Mueller. Because the installation was in full operation.

Then I thought, thus I pictured it to myself: there is a wooden house here to the right, this I still remembered, to the left there were some additional ones. Two-three other wooden houses. Instead of this - again with a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Hoefle - instead of this I came to a station, which...to a station called Treblinka and which was put up as if it were a German railway station somewhere in Germany; with all the signs etc. - they imitated everything. I stayed there - far to the rear.

I did not come nearer in order to see all this. I saw how, on passages fenced in by barbed wire, a line of naked Jews were entering a house in front, entering....not a house - a big structure similar to a hall - to be exterminated by gases. A hall where they were put to death


So Eichmann's testimony of a second visit confirms the testimony of his first
Treblinka inspection of the wooden huts.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: (Cesarini, in Becoming Eichmann, pp 98-99, concludes that Eichmann's various accounts are
fragmented and often contradictory
but that this visit took him to
possibly Belzec . . .under construction in woods some distance from Lublin.
Recall Eichmann's reporting that
they were erecting wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three.)
Longerich OTOH believes that the camp was Treblinka, only later, Eichmann having scrambled the time line of his visit, partly on the ground that elsewhere in his testimony Eichmann changes from wooden huts to "cottages" like the ones at Auschwitz (Holocaust, p 263; see also Browning, Origins of the Final Solution pages 362-366 for an explanation of Eichmann's testimony more in line with Cesarini's) The testimony you quote from Eichmann is useless for specifics about Treblinka in late summer 1942.
Not at all. The rest of Eichann's testimony makes it clear that his inspection of the wooden huts was at his first trip to Treblinka. Of course, his testimony contradicts other "eye witness" stories. That is my point.

Of course, false Confessions are usually "fragmented and often contradictory"
because the confessor does not know the real facts including dates.


Statistical Mechanic wrote: Last you say that Oscar Strawczynski described
the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
as a concrete building. Have you read Strawczynski's diary or just the excerpts at HEART? I ask because Strawczynski, according to his diary, didn't arrive at Treblinka from Czestochowa until October 1942 - over a month after the first gas chambers had already been replaced by the new structure for mass murder!
I am pulling excerpts from the ARC website. But does it make
any difference which gas chambers Oscar is saying was concrete? No.
Other tales have the second gas chamber made of brick.
However, to rebut your prevarications,
Your entire "theory" is based on the claim that the "first gas chambers had been replaced!" Are you claiming that the First Gas Chamber was torn down
by October 1942?

Statistical Mechanic wrote: You tried to have us believe that Krzepicki, Eichmann, and Strawzynski gave different descriptions of the capital F First Treblinka gas chambers. But this is what you are stuck with:
- Krzepecki's report of his first-hand observation in late August 1942 that Treblinka's first gas chamber was made of brick. [snip irrelevant]
- Eichmann's poor memory, and dodging and weaving, leaving a muddled testimony about a camp that may have been Belzec, may have been under construction in 1941, may have been visited during a month in autumn, and may have had wooden huts or cottages like those at Auschwitz - in short, observations of something that clearly was not Treblinka's first gas chambers, those operating in August 1942.
This excuse has already been addressed
- Strawczyinski's report from later fall 1942 (probably in December, when the camp was being "beautified") - well after his arrival 5 October which was itself well after the First Treblinka gas chambers, which Strawczynski never saw in any event, had been replaced with the new gas chambers - again, a description totally irrelevant to, in your words,
the First Treblinka "gas chamber"
to which you tell us Strawczynski's words pertain.

You claim three testimonies about the first gas chambers in Treblinka - but you have one (Krzepicki's) along with Eichmann's testimony possibly about Belzec and possibly about Treblinka's second gas chambers and Strawczynski's repetition of what two inmates told him sometime in fall 1942, after the first gas chambers had been replaced. A true David gem.

You can't even be a little bit honest.
Maybe you should read the testimony of Franz Suchomel
before claiming you have come up with a rational "explanation "
of the wildly varied "First Gas Chamber" descriptions, let alone throwing
insults around.

Suchomel: Yes. But the old ones hadn't been demolished. When there
were a lot of trains, a lot of people, the old ones were put back into
service. And here...the Jews say there were five on each side. I say
there were four, but I'm not sure. In any case, only the upper row on
this side was in action.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/akt ... transcript" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are back to dealing with contradictory tales of a brick, wooden, or concrete
gas chamber at Treblinka.
I should remind you of all the goofy tales of Steam, cyanide, submarine and tank diesel engines, and even gasoline engines to be used in your wooden, concrete,
or brick gas chamber.

Only a Believer crackpot would claim, "100% of both Germans and Jewish slave workers give the same account of the holocaust."




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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:44 am

David,

Yes, your attempt to make people believe you'd cited three contradictory testimonies about the first Treblinka gas chamber exploded in your face.

Now you are backing up so fast - you misstate what I wrote, you dig your hole on Eichmannn evlen deeper, you confuse my argument and now you even try having that it doesn't matter which gas chambers Strawczynski wrote about! - that I'm afraid you will trip and hurt yourself.

Let's take you latest mess point by confused point:
David wrote:??? You are confused on timing and as bumbling with the
facts as usual.
First, "dispatched SS-Scharführer Lorenz Hackenholt from Belzec death camp, to assist in the erection of the new gas chambers in Treblinka which were completed in September 1942.
So your "theory" requires that for the first two weeks Krzepicki was at Treblinka there
was no gas chamber. :roll: :roll:
Apparently you can't read. I wrote that Krzepicki was the only one of your trio who I think did see and report on the first gas chambers at Treblinka. You could have figured this out by looking at these sentences which I wrote:
1) "He would have seen that structure, indeed the original building, sometime between 25 August and 12 September, the 18-day period during which Krzepicki was in Treblinka."
2) "Krzepecki's report of his first-hand observation in late August 1942 that Treblinka's first gas chamber was made of brick. This matches the testimony of a Polish laborer . . ."
3) "You claim three testimonies about the first gas chambers in Treblinka - but you have one (Krzepicki's)"

Please tell us what is factually bumbling in what I wrote - and where I said that Krzepicki was at Treblinka for 2 weeks before there were gas chambers there.

My "theory" is, as I wrote, that Krzepicki was at Treblinka during the time when the old gas chambers were about to be and then were replaced by the new ones, on which Krzepicki was a laborer. I took the description of the "not too large brick building" - Krzepicki's words - to pertain to the original structure because he sneaked over to see the brick building, because he said that gas chamber 'had not been operating for a week," and because he mentioned that victims killed in the brick building were being cremated. (If I'm wrong, and if the structure Krzepicki described as a not very big brick building was for the new gas chambers, then you have zero witnesses describing what you said - "the First Treblinka 'gas chamber.'" In any event, Krzepicki did write distinctly that both the new and the old gas chambers were made of brick, which, again, matches what a Polish laborer testified about the original building.)
David wrote:And you are forgetting the confirming part of Eichmann's testimony.
Eichmann. Then let me speak now about this last point of the most terrible thing I have ever seen in the course of my life: It was Treblinka.
I also received an order. With Globocnik...I went to Globocnik ...on this occasion for the second time and [had] to report to Mueller. Because the installation was in full operation.

Then I thought, thus I pictured it to myself: there is a wooden house here to the right, this I still remembered, to the left there were some additional ones. Two-three other wooden houses. Instead of this - again with a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Hoefle - instead of this I came to a station, which...to a station called Treblinka and which was put up as if it were a German railway station somewhere in Germany; with all the signs etc. - they imitated everything. I stayed there - far to the rear.

I did not come nearer in order to see all this. I saw how, on passages fenced in by barbed wire, a line of naked Jews were entering a house in front, entering....not a house - a big structure similar to a hall - to be exterminated by gases. A hall where they were put to death


So Eichmann's testimony of a second visit confirms the testimony of his first Treblinka inspection of the wooden huts.
No, this testimony doesn't "confirm" Eichmann's other testimony in any way at all.

But, first, I specifically responded to what you quoted, David, which was the first visit Eichmann, in his tangled, confused way, told about, which was probably not to Treblinka at all.

Also, as to the "second" visit, Eichmann describes the gassing facility very differently - this time the gassing facility is not a few wooden houses: the Jews were taken into "not a house - a big structure similar to a hall - to be exterminated by gases. A hall where they were put to death." Eichmann is quite clear on the differences in what he saw: during his "first" visit, he observed "wooden huts, possibly two, perhaps three, this I no longer know exactly. The size - a sort of house with two or three rooms, I would say of that size , not large." Eichmann specifically says that what he saw on his supposed second trip to Treblinka was "big" and "not a house."

To repeat, because you struggle with facts so much: on Eichmann's supposed first trip (probably to Belzec) the gas chambers he saw were "not large" and "a sort of house": on the supposed second trip he saw "not a house" but a "big structure similar to a hall."

You've also garbled the rest of what Eichmann said about his second visit. The wooden houses he describes on his second visit were what he recalled from the first time and had expected to see on arriving at the camp, where he now saw a building made to look like a German railway station ("instead of this I came to a station"). The station Eichmann describes sounds like the "improvement" which Stangl had built some time after the construction of the new gas chambers (Arad, p 122). The second visit thus, on the basis of the gas chambers, the station, and other parts of the testimony, was when the new gas chambers were operating.

Again, Eichmann nowhere describes, as you claim he did, "the First Treblinka 'gas chamber.'"
David wrote:The rest of Eichann's testimony makes it clear that his inspection of the wooden huts was at his first trip to Treblinka. Of course, his testimony contradicts other "eye witness" stories. That is my point.
But your point is off mark because, in fact, Eichmann doesn't make clear even what camp he visited the first time, when he saw the small, wooden huts. In this case, Eichmann's testimony doesn't contradict other eyewitnesses - it is confused AND it is most likely testimony about a different place. (In fact, Eichmann's testimony about his first visit has details that support other evidence regarding Aktion Reinhard and specifically Belzec.)
David wrote: I am pulling excerpts from the ARC website. But does it make any difference which gas chambers Oscar is saying was concrete? No.
It makes all the difference in the world when you are writing about the first gas chambers at the camp!

Also, if you want to build a case around what Strawczynski wrote, you should at least read what he wrote, in its full context.
David wrote:Other tales have the second gas chamber made of brick.
We are not discussing the second set of gas chambers, which Strawczynski never saw either, but your claims about divergent testimonies on the first set. You’re changing the subject - which was the first gas chambers at Treblinka, not the second - and it is obvious why you now want to discuss a new issue.

To be clear, as you seem very confused, I think both the first and second gas chambers at Treblinka were built with a good deal of brick - and that you have zero testimonies to the contrary.

Your continued butchering of the testimonies, your saying that it's all the same no matter what Strawczynski meant, and your jumping around now underscore that the claim you tried making about Krzepicki, Eichmann and Strawczynski is baseless.
David wrote:However, to rebut your prevarications,
You’ve not yet shown one prevarication or even one error in what I wrote.
David wrote:Your entire "theory" is based on the claim that the "first gas chambers had been replaced!"
No it isn’t. I specifically told you that Eichmann’s testimony is probably about Belzec and too contradictory as to specifics to be taken as a firm account of the first gas chambers at Treblinka, and I also specifically told you that Strawczynski never saw the gas chambers - old or new - but reported on what people told him.
David wrote:Maybe you should read the testimony of Franz Suchomel before claiming you have come up with a rational "explanation " of the wildly varied "First Gas Chamber" descriptions, let alone throwing insults around.
David, I was replying to the trick you tried and which you’re running away from now by trying to shift to Suchomel. If you wanted to write not about Krzepicki, Eichmann, and Strawczynski, but about Suchomel, you should have done so. Your first trick is exposed. I’m glad we can agree on that. Suchomel's statement challenges not one thing that I've written. Here's why:

We don’t know what Eichmann saw in his supposed first visit - and, according to him, in his second visit he didn’t see a small wooden house-like structure rather “a big structure similar to a hall.” And Strawczynksi’s diary, which relies on what he was told, could well have mixed up the two old and new facilities - hardly good for your claim that he was a witness to what the "the First Treblinka 'gas chamber'" looked like. And Krzepicki, the only witness you quoted to the original gas chambers, said both the first and second chambers were brick. There are no discrepancies.
David wrote:You are back to dealing with contradictory tales of a brick, wooden, or concrete gas chamber at Treblinka.
No, I’m not. I’ve straightened out your misstatements about the accounts you cited, and I’ve shown that you either lied when you wrote that they were all witness descriptions of the first gas chambers at Treblinka or you were just terribly mixed up. Your claim of three contradictory eyewitness descriptions of the original gas chambers is flat out wrong - and now you’re reduced to throwing around a few words out of any context, misstating my argument, and making new claims without even trying to support your original point.
David wrote:Only a Believer crackpot would claim, "100% of both Germans and Jewish slave workers give the same account of the holocaust.”
Please don’t attribute to me what I haven’t written and don’t believe.

In fact, many Germans giving testimonies, trapped by the volume of evidence for mass murder, didn't contest the evidence for mass murder but tried to shift blame to others, pleaded superior orders, denied that they themselves played the role charged, or explained the murders as legal and necessary. Or they said that the circumstances were special, they'd been humane, they'd not engaged in excesses, they didn't recall, they had been drinking at the time, they helped some of the victims, etc (kind of like this case: starting here and continuing through the thread and especially this post). Some Germans, of course, simply admitted to their own guilt and told what they knew. A few lied through their teeth, saying that the crimes didn't occur at all. Even fewer tried to have it that the crimes hadn't been committed and they weren't part of them anyway (Kurt Franz?). Thus, as you'd expect, Germans responded to charges against them in different ways, depending on their circumstances, the strength of the evidence against them, their attitudes and commitments, and, like any witness, what they had done and observed. And Jewish witnesses reported in different ways as well, in part based on their perspective - what they saw as well as all the other factors that make individual witnesses differ.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:42 pm

All in all a fine example by David of "revisionists" re-visioning quotes past and present. :lol:
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:04 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:All in all a fine example by David of "revisionists" re-visioning quotes past and present. :lol:
And lost in the shuffle? David still hasn't supported - and I gave him 9 "Believer" books to work with - his claim that "Believers" fail to make use of documents, photographs, physical and other evidence in favor or using lots and lots of (or a handful of - he can't make up his mind) confused confessions as their "keystone."

All he needs to do - instead of lying about Treblinka witnesses - is show us how in the 9 studies I cited the authors rely on confessions and don't have other kinds of evidence. He could do this, e.g., by analyzing sources used in these works, cited in footnotes, and sorting these sources into categories and showing us the %'s, say, for confessions, German documents, other contemporary reports, eyewitness statements to authorities, data including demographics, photographs and films, physical studies, diaries and letters, media reports, documents from governments besides Germany, company records, and so on.

David prefers generalized huffing and puffing so as not to get pinned down - and then, of course, dishonest tricks.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:01 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yes, your attempt to make people believe you'd cited three contradictory testimonies about the first Treblinka gas chamber exploded in your face.
So claims of a brick, a concrete, or a wood
gas chamber aren't at odds? I think one "eye witness" claimed the
"gas chamber" was made of stone. I will look around for that "eye witness."
And tales of Steam chambers, Diesel Chambers, cyanide chambers, and gasoline
engine chambers are all the same…to a Believer. :roll:

As Matty claims, "the Stories are all 100% in agreement because everyone
says the events happened in Poland sometime in the early 1940's. :D :D

Statistical Mechanic wrote:But, first, I specifically responded to what you quoted, David, which was the first visit Eichmann, in his tangled, confused way, told about, which was probably not to Treblinka at all.
Let's all agree that Eichmann's testimony is as tangled and confused as if he were making things up :P , but you are absurdly obtuse about his two visits.
To put the obvious clearly for you: On the first visit alleged visit he saw small wooden huts. On the second trip he expected to see the small wooden huts again but saw a
large "Hall."
Statistical Mechanic wrote:David still hasn't supported - and I gave him 9 "Believer" books to work with - his claim that "Believers" fail to make use of documents, photographs, physical and other evidence in favor or using lots and lots of (or a handful of - he can't make up his mind) confused confessions as their "keystone."

All he needs to do - instead of lying about Treblinka witnesses - is show us how in the 9 studies I cited the authors rely on confessions and don't have other kinds of evidence. He could do this, e.g., by analyzing sources used in these works, cited in footnotes, and sorting these sources into categories and showing us the %'s, say, for confessions, German documents, other contemporary reports, eyewitness statements to authorities, data including demographics, photographs and films, physical studies, diaries and letters, media reports, documents from governments besides Germany, company records, and so on.
Gee, I still have Believers claiming that the testimony that
they call " tangled, confused" is really 100% in accord with all the other testimony!
And you are demanding that I write a doctoral thesis on how Believers can
navigate between all these tales. The answer doesn't require so m uch analysis,
SM. Believers have a willing suspension of Disbelief. They ignore the
conflicts and impossibilities and concentrate on claims that are kinda more or less
in accord….like being in Poland.
But, to continue the discussion on the concrete-wooden-brick diesel or steam
"gas chamber" you seem to be claiming that there are "documents"
that clarified the confused tales of the "gas chamber?"
So you have some invoices or bills for the "gas chamber like orders for a motor
or copper pipes?
Or are you just B.Sing?


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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:19 pm

David wrote:So claims of a brick, a concrete, or a wood gas chamber aren't at odds?
David, stop being foolish - the testimonies you cited are not about the same structure - "the First Treblinka 'gas chambers'" as you put it - and one is about a different place! So, of course, they are not at odds - or, I should say, only in your dazed and confused mind are they at odds.

For the third or fourth time:
One (Krzepicki's) was indeed about the first Treblinka gas chambers. One (Eichmann's) was probably about Belzec - but then, when you got tripped up on this, you added an Eichmann testimony about the 2nd Treblinka gas chambers. And one (Strawczynski's) was most likely, judging from the passage in his book, which you admit you haven't read) a pastiche or composite he heard and recalled from two fellow inmates.
David wrote:I think one "eye witness" claimed the "gas chamber" was made of stone. I will look around for that "eye witness."
You first might apologize for wasting our time with this silly trick you tried playing.
David wrote:And tales of Steam chambers, Diesel Chambers, cyanide chambers, and gasoline engine chambers are all the same…to a Believer. :roll:
Not to me. As you can see, I take the time and effort to be specific and to support what I write.
David wrote:As Matty claims, "the Stories are all 100% in agreement because everyone
says the events happened in Poland sometime in the early 1940's. :D :D
That's not what he wrote, of course, but I will let Matthew straighten you out.
David wrote:Let's all agree that Eichmann's testimony is as tangled and confused as if he were making things up :P , but you are absurdly obtuse about his two visits.
To put the obvious clearly for you: On the first visit alleged visit he saw small wooden huts. On the second trip he expected to see the small wooden huts again but saw a large "Hall."
Try again.

On the first tour with Hoefle, Eichmann saw wooden huts in the death area - in a camp he wasn't sure the name of but probably Belzec. Treblinka didn't exist at the time of his first visit, in 1941. It is not clear where Eichmann was or when he was there. And on his second time traveling to camps with Hoefle, Eichmann expected to see wooden huts on his coming to the camp, where people arrived, but he saw a German-looking railway station there instead:
Then I thought, thus I pictured it to myself: there is a wooden house here to the right, this I still remembered, to the left there were some additional ones. Two-three other wooden houses. Instead of this - again with a certain Sturmbannfuehrer Hoefle - instead of this I came to a station, which...to a station called Treblinka and which was put up as if it were a German railway station somewhere in Germany; with all the signs etc.

David, Eichmann is discussing the lower camp here, not the upper camp. He then testified to seeing the passageway to the upper camp and the gas chambers there, in the death area. The gas chambers he saw were in a large hall and specifically not in small wooden huts. Thus: Eichmann saw only the new gas chambers at Treblinka.

Eichmann's testimony is useless for discussion of the first gas chambers at the camp - which is what you started out discussing (who knows what you're on about at this point?).
David wrote:Gee, I still have Believers claiming that the testimony that
they call " tangled, confused" is really 100% in accord with all the other testimony!
Not me. That isn't close to what I've said. You are discussing this with me - not an imaginary "Believer." Stick with what I've written instead of making up crap to divert from your failures to support your claims.
David wrote:And you are demanding that I write a doctoral thesis on how Believers can
navigate between all these tales.
No. What I am saying is really basic enough even you should be able to grasp it: if you claim "Believers" ignore documents and other evidence and use confessions as a "keystone," then you need to support the claim - by showing us how in "Believer" works the keystone of the argument is based on confessions.

I suggested one way to do this.

You can't do it - so you're now pretending to be even stupider than you are and whining about the hole you've dug for yourself.
David wrote:The answer doesn't require so m uch analysis, SM.
Actually, the answer does require significant analysis. I myself am curious about what the analysis would reveal about different works and different scholars - and the nature of their sources taken as a whole. One of the things scholars always do is to assess the sources of the works they read - doing a quantitative study of a number of core studies would be interesting. It is the very kind of the thing you'd think someone trying to make the case that "Believers" rely on one kind of evidence, confessions, would have done before spouting off . . .
David wrote:Believers have a willing suspension of Disbelief. They ignore the conflicts and impossibilities and concentrate on claims that are kinda more or less in accord….like being in Poland.
Unsubstantiated noise. Especially after I've just written to the contrary . . . !
David wrote:you seem to be claiming that there are "documents" that clarified the confused tales of the "gas chamber?"
That was NOT my point about these testimonies. My point about these testimonies was that you don't understand them and you have not shown them to be in conflict - in fact, quite the contrary.

Just so you don't keep playing games:
1) I replied to your attempted sleight of hand with the original Treblinka gas chambers and 3 "eyewitnesses" by showing the deceit you were attempting.
2) I also replied to your larger claim about the Holocaust as a whole - that the history is based on confessions which form, you wrote,
the keystones of Holocaust Belief

and that, inter alia, the belief that millions of Jews (you wrote 6,000,000) perished in the Holcoaust. You've dodged my requests that you support this assertion. So now I have no choice but to keep reminding readers that you've done so . . .

David, are you going to explain, using actual works by those whom you call "Believers," how confessions form the "keystone" of their argument? Or are you going to keep huffing and puffing?
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:46 pm

Careful, "huffing and puffing" might have gravel consequences and trigger a new train of thoughts. ;)
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:16 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:Careful, "huffing and puffing" might have gravel consequences and trigger a new train of thoughts. ;)
He did rather abruptly abandon that er train wreck of an argument eh?
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:37 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Careful, "huffing and puffing" might have gravel consequences and trigger a new train of thoughts. ;)
He did rather abruptly abandon that er train wreck of an argument eh?
We might be in for an eventful ride. At the moment we are visiting the chambers and discussing their architecture and soon their function. From there, we will roll by various pits which will bring us to osteoblastic machinery and a quick look at the local arboreal situation. Then we will be treated to tales about foreign visitors and their further travels to wondrous locations. Eventually, our little train will make a detour to the weapons factories of the neighboring camp and then on to visit wonderful Malkinia on our way back to our starting point.

Our tour guide will not miss pointing out various fairy tales and legends about the region, including the use of invisibility cloaks by former residents and magicians, and the still visible entrance to Hollow Earth.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by David » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:the testimonies you cited are not about the same structure
While you are tap dancing around your brick, wooden, or concrete
steam, diesel, vacuum, zyclon, or gasoline gas chamber building you need to add
a pirouette around the "confession" of Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko.

A stone building, the so-called “dushegubka”, had nine chambers inside, in which people were murdered by asphyxiation with gases. In the tenth chamber there was an engine of high power which pumped the gas into the chambers.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _9432.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And, since you claim that transportation expert Eichmann could not tell Belzec from
his Treblinka do you think he also confused Treblinka with Auschwitz when he
testified about the "gas?"

I saw how, on passages fenced in by barbed wire, a line of naked Jews were entering a house in front, entering....not a house - a big structure similar to a hall - to be exterminated by gases. A hall where they were put to death, as far as I was told, with ...how is it called -cyan...
Less. Potassium cyanide?
Eichmann. Cyan....
Less. Potassium cyanide [Zyankali].
Eichmann. Potassium cyanide or acid,



Matty says, "The eye witness testimony is 100% exact. They all agree that
the deaths happened in Poland and at some time in the early 1940's"







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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:48 am

David wrote: ... Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko.

A stone building, the so-called “dushegubka”, had nine chambers inside, in which people were murdered by asphyxiation with gases. In the tenth chamber there was an engine of high power which pumped the gas into the chambers.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... _9432.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...
The "new gas chamber", IIRC, built from bricks from a large chimney, so what? Bricks also are called 'artificial stones'.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:54 am

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/photos.html wrote:
CHIMNEY IN MALKINIA
The photo on the left was taken in early autumn 1942 by Kurt Franz. SS man Erwin Lambert is working at the chimney in order to destroy it. The bricks were used for building the new gas chambers of Treblinka.
The photo on the right shows the site in summer 2002. The trees around the church have grown, new houses have been built but the site where the chimney had been, remained empty.
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Re: November 21st is False Confession Day.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:09 am

David,

To reiterate, and to be clear, I've not said that I expect all witnesses to observe and report the same thing about commonly witnessed events. In fact, I've said I expect some divergence - which we need to sort out. Your continued allegation that I expect all the witnesses to match on all the details is what is called a strawman - please knock it off.

Up til now I've been sticking with your three witnesses and have shown how their testimonies don't diverge - because they aren't reporting on the same events. So now you've abandoned that tack and want to discuss more confusion in Eichmann's testimonies (we would need a forum all for Eichmann if we wanted to exhaust his exhausting narration and justifications) and also another witness on a separate topic, the second or new Treblinka gas chambers. (You always give away when your gambits fail - you try slipping over to a new topic!)

But let's just step back for a moment. First, let's add one detail on the original claim you made about contradictions as to the construction of the original gas chambers at Treblinka. As I've told you, we have two solid reports on this (for more such reports, see the HC White Paper, pp 295-298): these are Krzepicki, who wrote that both the first and second sets of gas chambers at Treblinka were constructed of brick, and a Polish laborer named Lucjan Puchala. The other statements you cited as contradictory are irrelevant to this issue (what the original gas chambers were made of) because the witnesses were not reporting on the first gas chambers at Treblinka.

Further (and here's the new point you need to think about), recent archaeological studies, which we've discussed at length in this forum, have discovered bricks in the location of the first gas chambers, corroborating Krzepicki and Puchala. Here are some relevant points about Sturdy Colls’s work:
the dig found brick walls and foundations from the gas chambers, and massive amounts of human bone.

news article on Sturdy Coll's discoveries
An apparent structure measuring 22 x 15m was identified in the Ground Penetrating Radar survey, undertaken in 2010. Targeted excavation in the middle of this area in 2013 confirmed that this structure was the Old Gas Chamber building. The discovery of tiles, sections of wall and other building furnishings proved that this building was modeled on a bathhouse.
preliminary forensic report on original gas chambers, syncing with Krepicki’s and Puchala's testimonies well as that of others concerning the original gas chambers The preliminary findings update includes a photo of one of the bricks, with this caption:
One of the sections of brick wall found in the area of the Old Gas Chamber at Treblinka II.
So the testimonies about the original brick facility are supported by forensic work at the site!

But now you want to discuss the new gas chambers. You cite a brief excerpt you've read from Shevchenko's testimony to a SMERSH investigator in 1944, the English translation of which mentions a "stone building." Leaving aside for a moment your penchant for picking up snippets, without knowing their context, let's say that as to this structure Shevchenko said nothing more, only that it was stone. Here is what you are now up against:

The new gas chambers had to be constructed, and people had to plan, oversee, and execute their construction. The trouble for you is that we have evidence about these folks and their work. Strangely enough, the AR authorities decided to utilize the services of Erwin Lambert, who had before his work with T4 and the AR camps been a bricklayer foreman, to direct the construction of the new Treblinka gas chambers in August-September 1942. Lambert's work is described, for example, as follows:
The bricks for the new gas chambers were obtained from a number of sources, including the chimney of an abandoned glass factory in Malkinia. SS-Oberscharfuhrer Kurt Franz took a number of photographs of the demolition of the chimney, and testified after the war that be bricks had been used in the construction of the new gas chambers. Other bricks were delivered from Warsaw . . .
quoted from Webb’s book on Treblinka

Image

chimney at Malkinia, from Yad Vashem collection
Erwin Lambert is on the photo putting fire under the chimney to burn the wooden poles used for holding the chimney after removing some bricks. The bricks were used for the new gas chambers of Treblinka. The photograph is from the private album of Kurt Franz from the time of his service as Deputy Commandant of Treblinka. The album was presented by the prosecution at Franz's trial in Dusseldorf during the years 1964-5.
A fall 1942 report from Warsaw ghetto described what witnesses had told the ghetto underground about the construction of the new gas chambers - that
It looks like an unfinished shell of a brick building. . .

and also that the work had been done in part by
Jewish artisans selected from those brought for extermination,

that is men like Wiernik and the bricklayers about whom Wiernik wrote (supervised by Germans executing Lambert's plans). The report also said that bricks were
hauled from Warsaw in freight-cars attached to the rear of each transport-train. The bricks were loaded at the Warsaw Umschlagplatz by Jews.

(“The Annihilation of Jewish Warsaw: A Report," AR II/192, section entitled “Treblinka,” n.d. - report states that the information on Treblinka arrived in September 1942, from Kermis, ed., To Live and To Die With Honor: Selected Documents from the Warsaw Ghetto Underground Archives O.S. Oneg Shabbath, p 44)

Also, for the second gas chambers we have the following people stating that the chambers were made of bricks: Krepicki, as noted earlier; Wiernik (“brick building which housed the gas chambers” - Donat, p 157;); the Dusseldorf judgment summarizing perpetrator and other witnesses before that court (“a massive brick structure set on a foundation of concrete” - Donat, p 300); Strawczynski (told by other inmates); Glazar - p 37, heard from other inmates) (I don’t believe Rajchman stated what the new chambers were made of; Willenberg didn’t see them). We can add to these testimonies the following: descriptions of a brick structure in the Oyneg Shabes report, reports of bricks and skilled workers taken from Warsaw to the camp to build the new gas chambers, testimony at the Dusseldorf trial about Lambert's remit, and photographs entered into evidence at the Dusseldorf trial corroborating a part of that testimony. Against this, we have one snippet from a long testimony saying stone, in the English translation from Russian.

Good grief.

numerous edits: typos, dropped sentences, bad formatting galore, cleaned up best I can
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:51 am, edited 11 times in total.
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