Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:40 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:51 pm

HE'S BBBBAAAACK! :D

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:54 pm

The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:59 pm

Nice to have you back.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:22 pm

:hmm: Pfft, drive-by post... :roll:




Spoiler:
.


Nooooooooooooooo, don't let it be!!!
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by nickterry » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:02 pm

written by yours truly.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:10 pm

nickterry wrote:
written by yours truly.
I read it earlier. When I get a chance I'm going to spend some time on the links in your article.

Thanks for posting it, I know I'll be seeing replies from deniers in the near future.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:24 pm

Yes, thanks to Nick for straightening out so quickly, and clearly, the screaming headlines and somewhat wild text in the tabloids.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:34 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.
Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/the-discovery-of-himmlers-appointments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Yes, thanks to Nick for straightening out so quickly, and clearly, the screaming headlines and somewhat wild text in the tabloids.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks for posting them! :-P
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:38 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.
Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/the-discovery-of-himmlers-appointments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.
"Sonderkommando" means "special unit"

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:42 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.
Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/the-discovery-of-himmlers-appointments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.
"Sonderkommando" means "special unit"
Yeah, but "Sobibor" apparently is not mentioned. Even thought that is what was meant.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by nickterry » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:46 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeff_36 wrote:
The fact that Himmler referred to it as SS-Special Unit Sobibor is telling. No mention of "transit" or "hovercraft" anywhere.
Am not sure about what I bolded^. If I understand correctly, it can obviously be inferred but is not stated explicitly as such?
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/the-discovery-of-himmlers-appointments.html wrote:• 14 Uhr: Start von Cholm mit Sonderzug zum SS-Sonderkommando

• 15-16 Uhr: Besichtigung des SS-Sonderkommandos

The official designation for Sobibor was SS-Sonderkommando Sobibor; the camp was located in Chelm county, often renamed Cholm by the Germans. Thus, three separate Nazi sources confirm Himmler's visit to Sobibor in early 1943, two of which pinpoint 12 February 1943 as the exact date.
Yes, inferred. There was no other SS-Sonderkommando in the vicinity of Chelm/Cholm, this is what Sobibor was called in documents from the same time-frame, and we know from another source that Himmler definitely visited Sobibor in early 1943 without knowing the exact date. AFAIK this was Himmler's only visit to the Lublin district in the relevant time-frame (before the spring 43 letter about Wirth's promotion), the full Dienstkalender would confirm that beyond all reasonable doubt.

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:30 am

The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:02 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/
September 1943 IIRC was when it was dug

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:37 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.
What cremation area are you asking about? If it's the crematorium, that seems to be marked in this image: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo ... 82-10.html

(Thanks to Nessie for posting the link upthread.)
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:22 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:The archeologists also found the escape tunnel that the inmates tried to dig:

http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/1 ... eath-camp/

I thought I read that the archeologists found the cremation area but I can't find it.
What cremation area are you asking about? If it's the crematorium, that seems to be marked in this image: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/photo ... 82-10.html

(Thanks to Nessie for posting the link upthread.)
It was a description of the ground. They could tell where the fire was and how it affected the area.
I'm going to try and find it.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:37 pm

Two colleagues brought this find to my attention: discovery by Haimi/Mazurek’s team of a pendant at Sobibór likely having belonged to 14-year-old Karoline Cohn, who was deported from Frankfurt, Germany, to Minsk in November 1941, when she was 12, and then possibly from Minsk to Sobibór on one of the last transports to the death camp (September 1943, at the time of the liquidation of the Minsk ghetto) (it is possible too that Karoline died in Minsk but that a Minsk deportee carried the pendant to Sobibór).

The pendant, resembling one known to have belonged to Anne Frank, also born in Frankfurt, was found where a building stood along the Himmelstrasse, the path leading to the Sobibór gas chambers. As these are the only two pendants of this sort, researchers are also pursuing a familial relationship of some sort between the Franks and Cohns. Read more:

”Who Was Karoline Cohn?”

Here is an article on this find with more background on the excavations at Sobibór.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:55 pm

From the article^
Archaeologists uncovered a building near the former "Pathway to Heaven" and, in the building's foundation, discovered some of the victims' personal belongings, Yad Vashem said Sunday in the statement.

Researchers believe that the victims may have dropped the items - including the triangular pendant - which fell through the building's floorboards to the ground, where they were buried for decades.
Could have been the place where they had to surrender those belongings.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:14 pm

A bit more on time frames: The Sobibór revolt took place 14 October 1943; Arad lists the Minsk ghetto-liquidation deportations as occurring 18-22 September 1943 - other sources have the deportations commencing a day or two earlier than this IIRC. One of these transports would have carried Sasha Pechersky, who would lead the revolt, from Minsk to Sobibór and, as I've argued, very possibly Eric Hunt's Treblinka Dusche-Meister, Heinz Rosenberg, who in all likelihood went to Sobibór and not ever to Treblinka (explained here and here).
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:57 am

scrmbldggs wrote:From the article^
Archaeologists uncovered a building near the former "Pathway to Heaven" and, in the building's foundation, discovered some of the victims' personal belongings, Yad Vashem said Sunday in the statement.

Researchers believe that the victims may have dropped the items - including the triangular pendant - which fell through the building's floorboards to the ground, where they were buried for decades.
Could have been the place where they had to surrender those belongings.
women's undressing hut (0:50)

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:05 pm

Roberto posted this on RODOH, I can't see where this is added to any comment here:
http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploa ... n-2013.pdf
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:12 pm

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:47 am

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Denying-History » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:28 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:New museum at Sobibor:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/3205 ... -in-Poland
To be honest, I personally feel leaving the site to die is for the best, just as much as it is to leave Auschwitz to rot. The remotness feeling that comes from the photographs I feel leaves a larger impact then seeing a monument.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:57 am

Denying-History wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:New museum at Sobibor:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/3205 ... -in-Poland
To be honest, I personally feel leaving the site to die is for the best, just as much as it is to leave Auschwitz to rot. The remotness feeling that comes from the photographs I feel leaves a larger impact then seeing a monument.

I'm for upkeep and preservation. A museum is fine with me as long as it doesn't disrupt any of the graves, foundations, etc.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:36 pm

Last night I was at a party and wound up speaking with a fellow, let's call him Marek, who it turns out had emigrated from Poland to the US when he was 26. He grew up, he told me, "in eastern Poland, you never heard of it." I asked more precisely where, like near which city, and a geography lesson ensued, his continuing to doubt that I would understand where he meant. He began with "near Lublin." Eventually I asked if his hometown were near Piaski or Izbica, in that direction. Sort of, he said, but northeast of there. "Sounds like Chelm County, I have a colleague," I said, "researching Chelm during the war." Marek gave me an odd look, as though I were daft - and then explained that he had not met anyone in the US, in all his years here, who knew where he grew up. Indeed, it was in a town just outside the city of Chelm. I recognized the name of the town and asked hadn't there been a small labor camp for Jews there. He said yes.

Now I had to, of course, ask Marek about Majdanek. He'd visited several times and described the camp much as I imagine it - except for one thing: he told me that when he had gone to the camp as a child, he'd seen ashes there and had never been able to get them out of his mind. (I have to check on this. There's a famous photo of an ash heap found in the camp by the Soviets, but I can't imagine that it was still present in he '50s. Marek was not so impacted by the iconic display of shoes, which I asked him about.)

I said that I'd imagine that people in the Lublin area and even Chelm must have known a good deal about Majdanek, given the number of Polish political prisoners held there.

Marek told me that he was certain that was so but that as he grew up he had heard far more about Sobibór and Bełzec - especially, given the location of his hometown, about Sobibór. His parents (18 years old during the war) and aunts and uncles had told him much about Sobibór. Marek said that as an adult he'd read a collection of short stories about Chelm written by Isaac Bashevis Singer and that the world described in the stories had been wiped out - the Jews from his town were all gone when he grew up there - and from the entire area of Chelm. I told Marek about the excavations of Sobibór, which didn't seem terribly important to him.

I found it interesting that, given my colleague's research on Chelm and my own knowledge of Majdanek, when I tried to get Marek to tell me more about both interethnic violence in the Chelm area and the fate of so many Poles in Majdanek, Marek told me that I had to understand, the main thing was the elimination the Jews of the region. This is what his family had explained to him as he grew up - what they'd seen for themselves and heard about. Marek has toured Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibór, Bełzec, and Majdanek - each camp more than once; he told me I'd made a dumb decision last year when I decided not to go through with my plan to visit Lublin and Majdanek.
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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:39 pm

. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Balmoral95 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:54 am

Calling Kushner tomorrow: we're doing "Trump: Sobibor".... We can prolly get sub-prime from Deutsche Bank and Pootey for Polish dirt... This a UUUUUUUUUUge win....

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:25 pm

This is a translation of a source provided by the Bergen-Belsen Museum, I will add the source and tweet below:

Preminger was born on 28.01.1896 in Kolomea. This city, today approx. 60,000 inhabitants, located in the west of today's Ukraine on the Prut, about 200 km southeast of Lviv and north of Bukovina.

Since the 16th century, Jews lived in Kolomea; the place had as a Jewish center at the turn of the century a Jewish population share of nearly 50%. From 1939 until the Holocaust, about 15,000 Jews still lived there; they were killed in the Belzec extermination camp.

Rosa Preminger moved from Berlin to Neumünster on September 5, 1932. When exactly she left her hometown of Kolomea is unclear, but by then she had been surrounded by Jewish life. Since there was no Jewish community in Neumünster, she became a member of the Segeberger community.

After the registration documents Ms. Preminger moved back to Berlin on November 4, 1939.
One can only speculate about the reasons. There may have been private, personal reasons, but it is clear that the situation was particularly dangerous for Eastern Jews at this time. Polish Jews were threatened with compulsory expulsions since October 1938, it is possible that Ms. Preminger felt safer in the big city because of growing anti-Semitism in the daily environment (especially after the pogrom of 9/10 November 1938).

It is not clear what kind of nationality Ms Preminger actually had; When she was born, her home region belonged to the Danube monarchy and within this to the Hungarian dominion. After WWI the region belonged to the Ukraine for a short time and then to Poland until WW II.

So far, it was assumed that Rosa Preminger was deported to Lublin and was killed there.
 
The current research has revealed the following:
 
Since Ms Preminger von Neumünster went back to Berlin, the Stolpersteine ​​coordination office in Berlin was asked if anything was known about her. From there, a reference was given to the Healing and Nursing Bendorf-Sayn, Koblenz. This was the "Jacoby cure and care institution", a facility for Jewish "nervous and mental patients" dating back to a private foundation in 1869.
 
From this institution 331 people were deported on June 15, 1942. There were 271 patients, 10 people from the nursing home and 50 employees with their relatives. They all belonged to a transport of a total of 1003 people from the areas of Koblenz, Aachen, Cologne and Dusseldorf, which had been put together according to "Unknown".
In the deportation list of this transport Rosa Preminger is listed under the number 215; in terms of her nationality is registered as "stateless, formerly Poland". The commemorative book of the Federal Archives contains the information that the transport went to Sobibor and arrived there on 19 June 1942. Since Sobibor was an extermination camp, we have to assume that Rosa Preminger was killed there in June 1942 in one of the gas chambers by engine gases.


Heide Winkler
November 2017

https://www.spurensuche-neumuenster.de/ ... preminger/
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: Excavations at Sobibór Extermination Camp

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:26 pm

Partial list from the above link:
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Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843