Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

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Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:38 pm

Balsamo re-posted from the RODOH666 Wannsee thread RODOH666 Wannsee thread, which I've sent David to for my views on the development of Third Reich Jewish policy, on his own stance on how "implementation of full scale genocidal policies" came to be Third Reich policy:
Balsamo wrote:Again the "no order, no reality" kind of arguments...which reminds me of a never ending debate on Rodoh about Wannsee...Amazing to see how little most deniers know about how the nazi state did function.

So here was i guess my last post on the topic, not that i am claiming holding the truth, but at the very least i explain how the nazi logic in persuing policies worked:
Well, I would say that the EK’s was Himmler’s armed force at his disposal within its missions as RKF and the HSSPF network. In this context, the expression “ Shoot the Jews as Partisans” makes more sense. In other words, Himmler had authorities to shoot the Jews in the eastern territories NOT to be annexed, so the project to transfer the German Jews would there would increase his grip over them, including their economical values. It should be stressed out that the EK were not to be used everywhere, but only within the territories concerned by Himmler’s specific missions. This would be Hitler’s order to Himmler of the 13th of March 1941 to “prepare the political organization and the administration of the occupied eastern territories”. This “Fuhrer Befehl” also gives Himmler full power and complete freedom to fulfill his task. But this mission was limited to the eastern territories.

The important point here is that even ruthless killings needed to be supported with some kind of legal frame. A kind of legitimation so to speak. In the case of the einzatsgruppen actions, security concerns (de facto under the RSHA) was the legitimation. When Frank asked for a cleaning of the GG, the legitimation was economic and health. There was not enough food, Jews had no resources left and were an economic burden as well as a health threat. In both cases, those actions were backed by legal authorities. The case of Serbia as I said is also a good one as the security legitimation was the highest.
But in order to insist of the importance of some form of legality, there is one example: When Jeckelen took the initiative to shoot the first convoy of German Jews, he did not only anger the Reichkommissar Lohse, but even Lange refused to take part of this Aktion without a written order- that was non-existent. As much illustrative is the letter from Kube to Lohse on what to do with the thousands of German Jews who arrived in Minsk in December 1941 – especially since many were decorated ww1 veterans or mischlingen! (USING the terms half ayrans or three quarter Aryans instead of half Jew). The legitimation on which was based the shootings of Baltic and russian Jews just did not fit to the treatment of the German Jews, even for hard core killers.

But before I continue in this logic, I take the opportunity to address one of StatMec replies to me.
StatMec said
Quote:
“Well, Himmler was made Interior Minister about a year before this time. Also, his intervention in Lodz was not as Interior Minister but as RFSS”

Here I must disagree. Being the “Reichsführer der ss” was a title as well as a rank among the SS, but not the source of Himmler's powers by itself.
It would be a good idea to review the powers held by Himmler and the possibilities that those powers gave him to deal with the Final solution.

CHEF OF THE POLICE WITHIN THE REICH
When Himmler became chef of the Police within the Reich, he was still under the legal authority of the minister of the interior, until he managed to become the minister in 1943.
CHEF OF THE POLICE IN THE EAST
In the East, his powers as chief of the police were much greater. Firstly, because, as we said, he was holding a special “fuhrer Befehl” that gave him kind primacy over the civil administration held by the “Reichskommisars” and the “General Governor”.
SS RKF
he could also rely on his authority as RKF, “or “Reichskommissar für die Festigung deutschen Volkstums”.
Himmler was the sole authority for what we could call demographic engeneering, deciding who would be settled where. This post was one of the most determinent in the genocidal policies that would take place.
In addition, he was de facto at the center of the overall project known as “General Ostplan”, so dear to Rosenberg and which scope was far larger than the only “Judenpolitiek”.

Those circumstances, and those powers, gave Himmler latitude and a power that he could not have in the western occupied territories, or even in the Reich. To sum it up, once a Jew entered those eastern territories, as a RKF, he could send him where he wanted, in transit Ghetto as mentioned in the Protocol where he would then be dispatched to death or to work, this time for the profit of the SS.

Of course, other authorities could compete with Himmler's. And times would be needed to sort out of the mess created by the multiplicity of authorities. The main would be the Rosenberg ministry, the GG, etc. To make things short here, Himmler will finally prevail.

It has to be added that the fragmentation of authority (which Himmler will eventually overcome) related to the Judenpolitiek was not an obstacle to the implementation of a genocidal policies in those regions: General Governor Frank was demanding after having seen his kingdom becoming the bin for Jews, but also most of the Gauleiters, Reichsstatthalters or Reichskommissars, etc. were glad to get rid of their useless Jews and to comply with Hitler’s wishes and the General OstPlan, but not their profitable ones. It is Greiser that took the initiative to create Chelmno, iirc. He cooperate gladly with Himmler and Heydrich as far as the killing is concerned (the less Jews in the Ghetto, the more profits). And the less Jews in his Gau meant more Volkdeutschen to be settled which was a goal and mission he shared with Himmler. Given the fact that he could not send those Jews further east due to opposition of the local authorities there, in order to comply with the acceptance of German Jews (thus obeying the Fuhrer’s wish), he had to deal with his local Jews in a “special way”. The same logic will be implemented in the GG. But there, in addition to this, there was a real fear of epidemic and foot shortage. Better to kill the surplus of Jews than to risk an epidemic that would affect Germans.

The important point here is that Jews were killed in various part of those territories, but that those killings derived from various logics, various political thinking, decisions and because of the consequences of those. The only point in common – the only common denominator, so to speak – was that in fine, the Jews were to disappear from those territories by any means.
When the decision – Hilter’s wish - to expel the German Jews to the same territories, already filled with Jews, and given the absence of new territories available, a purge of those eastern Jews imposed itself – thus the creation of Chelmno and Belzec, thus additional shootings, etc.

This explains why the Shoah was at full force in the eastern part of German controlled Europe. And although Himmler was still building his personal power – it still had some limits by the end of 1941 – he had almost free hand there.
However, one of the frustrations he must have felt was that, although he was in the capacity to kill Jews, his organization was not the beneficiary of the economical profits of the Judenpolitiek.

Whatever the number of Jews, Himmler could extract from Lodz (in order to make room for German Jews), Greiser would not surrender the Lodz Ghetto.
As a matter of fact, I think that the economical aspect of the Shoah is often minimized if compared to the killings. The struggle for power was about the living Jews and the profits they were generating: The entity that controlled those slaves controlled the cheapest manpower in Europe, and thus enjoyed the greatest profits. Himmler was shocked and pissed off by the corruption within the civil administration, especially when related to the goods of the Jews or the profits from their work in the Ghettos.

A CONTEXTUAL CHANGE:

By the end of 1941, it was clear that Barbarossa was a failure. Hitler lost his last and fatal gambit. Moscow was not taken, the Wehrmacht and its allies were stuck in the Russian winter without proper cloths, ammunition and food. And above all, the Soviets launched a multitude of counter-attacks threatening to turn the failure into a total disaster. It is important to stress out that those counter-offensives were still underway when Wannsee took place.

The failure of Barbarossa was as I said the hardest wake-up call that Hitler and his staff had to confront. The Führer lost his most crucial gambit. He sent all his forces into to one single ALL IN ONE bet, like a lunatic poker player. He sent more than 3 million soldiers to invade the USSR without even having considered that his operation could fail. No one thought to even provide winter clothes in case of something would turn wrong. This is so unbelievable, and though, overlooked. The Wehrmacht lost most of its materials (most was from the confiscated weapons from defeated or occupied countries) during the soviet’s counter offensive, and the German industry was not even turned into full war production. The lack of Manpower, the need of military reinforcements (that could only be recruited among german workers) was the main challenge that Nazi Germany was facing. If the SS and Himmler wanted to profit from the situation, they had to act and get a piece of the pie.
As usual in Nazi Germany, conflicting institutions would compete: Goering’s four years plan, the ministry of Armament and the SS. Basically, from the disaster, Himmler saw an opportunity for the SS that could not be missed.

This is this new imperative, along with the increase of Himmler’s powers - a concentration of authorities - that will give yet another impetus, or eventually a structural change, to the genocidal policy that was already taking place in the east, in addition to the security related killings ( which would move further east into the USSR), hygienic measures, space and food management, etc.
At first sight, it can look like a new plan, instead, imho, it’s a more structured and organized version of an already established policy.
It was not all about killing all the Jews, but more like a huge human resources management, that would end in the murder of millions. As the eastern territories – especially Poland and the GG – were the only ones where, as we have seen, Himmler had almost absolute power, the first step was to bring as much Jews as possible there. The Jews there would face the biggest selection ever organized. Having wasted his reserves of Russian POW’s, Himmler turned to the Jews which were to be his very own property. This is the context that will give birth to the reorganization of the WVHA that will coexist with the RSHA. The first being in charge of the Jews selected to live and work – or to die working -, the second in charge of the permanent selection. Both organizations were in any case more free to operate in the eastern territories. It was also the opportunity for Himmler to respond to two missions: participate and profiting for the war effort and cleaning the selected western territories from their Jews by deporting them to the “East” over which Himmler ruled.

There was just one small obstacle to this plan. As SS RKF, Himmler’s authority was still restricted to the eastern territories, and as chief of police within the Reich, he was still under the nominal authority of the minister of the Interior. In the case of the German Jews, another problem arose, they were still somehow German citizens – even third class – were subject to local and national authorities. In addition, there was still indecision about a large scale deportation: It would have been facilitated by a swift victory, but now that the prospect looked grim, attention to the German public opinion increased. And even Hitler hesitated to deport the Jews from Berlin which – although the capital of the Reich – was also the less Nazi. Goebbels expresses his frustration many times in his diary.

Considering this, it can be argued that no plan of massive exterminations has been exposed to the Reich's civil servant - as i said, it would have been counter-productive - but they were aware that these "evacuations" meant the surrender of hundreds of thousands German Jews to the sole will and power of Himmler. They also were aware of the fate of the eastern Jews in Himmler's kingdom, "the East". Their reluctance to submit the German Jews can be explained by the fact that they knew that it would have enforce Himmler's power, and weaken their own role ( or the one of their respective administration) within the State. The struggle between Himmler and Rosenberg for authority there is well known, as is the one between the ministry of Armement, Göring's one and what'd become the WVHA.

Anyway

This is the very reason of Wannsee. Another could be the problems raised by the first deportation of 1941, by the “accidental” shootings of Half Aryans in Minsk and Riga and the protests that could have reached the Reichsführer SS. I am not aware of any documents, but Heydrich himself gives us a hint during the conference. We have seen that the conference was not a complete success.

The real change, which will give a new impetus to Himmler’s power and to the genocidal policies will be a bit later ( February 42?) when Himmler will see his authority as SS RKF increase to the whole German sphere of influence – and that includes the West. He will meet additional obstacles there, though. Another impetus in the West will be given by him becoming minister of the interior in summer 1943.
But the important point is that in the “East”, everything as already ready to the implementation of full scale genocidal policies BEFORE Wannsee.
Not to rehash that "never ending" discussion, Balsamo calls it (the thread is 2nd longest at RODOH666, exceeded only by been-there's useless WUF thread), but this is a good opportunity to open a topic on policy and decision-making in the Third Reich, which David wants to discuss, AND leave the Central Europe thread for discussion of, again borrowing from Balsamo, the "reality" of certain deportation actions, that is, what happened to Jews on specific transports cited by David.

(Of course, there are connections back and forth here, but the Central European Transports thread is meant to focus on the empirical questions, and evidence to resolve them, surrounding the 1941-1942 deportations from Greater Germany.)
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Cerdic » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:01 am

No responses yet?

Image
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Balsamo » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:06 pm

Nope

And i think that one could wait until the end of time before having one.
The deniers we have on this forum hardly know the subject they are arguing with...So having them to share their knowledge about how the third Reich was functionning is like asking God to bring peace on earth..

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:46 pm

Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:18 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss? Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:34 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss? Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
This is quite amusing. The one who can hardly formulate a coherent question, leave alone an accurate answer, is attempting to tell a thoroughly studied and articulate person how it's done. :lol:
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:41 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss? Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
This is quite amusing. The one who can hardly formulate a coherent question, leave alone an accurate answer, is attempting to tell a thoroughly studied and articulate person how it's done. :lol:
What's even more amusing is that a thoroughly studied and articulate idiot can't figure out how to start a conversation about some useless topic that he thinks is important. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:50 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss? Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
This is quite amusing. The one who can hardly formulate a coherent question, leave alone an accurate answer, is attempting to tell a thoroughly studied and articulate person how it's done. :lol:
What's even more amusing is that a thoroughly studied and articulate idiot can't figure out how to start a conversation about some useless topic that he thinks is important. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hmmm, there must be something about this particular issue that scares the living daylights outta you. Good.

I'm sure Statistical Mechanic, and other well versed members here, are gonna lambaste you and your pals. Again.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:26 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss?
I did. I posted the OP. On account of David's trying to divert the Central Europe thread to discuss general policy issues and decision-making in the Third Reich. As people have pointed out, he's honored this thread with his silence on the matter.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
?????????
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:28 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Cerdic wrote:No responses yet?

Image
There's nothing to respond to.
LOL, proving - beyond a shadow of a doubt - Balsamo's point . . .
Why don't you get the ball rolling? What is it about Nazi policy and decision making do you want to discuss? Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
This is quite amusing. The one who can hardly formulate a coherent question, leave alone an accurate answer, is attempting to tell a thoroughly studied and articulate person how it's done. :lol:
What's even more amusing is that a thoroughly studied and articulate idiot can't figure out how to start a conversation about some useless topic that he thinks is important. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Most amusing of all is that the topic was introduced by David, to interrupt a discussion he was struggling to be part of, and now, when I've provided him a place to ventilate on the topic he thinks, in a different context, to be so important, David can't come up with anything to say - but this comic steps in to . . . discuss discussing.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:45 pm

. . . continued from here. . .

David, we understand that you find it mysterious that French Jews weren't deported to the death camps right off the bat, so to speak. You even wrote that
The Germans occupied France for 4 years. What do you think the "timing issue" was for carrying out the "Final Solution" in France, 1947? In fact, it seems that French Jewish citizens were exempt from deportation.
You appear to be struggling with a simple concept (time) as well as with empirical information (what we know about deportations from France, for example).

To help you figure out what is clear to everyone else (except the terminally baffled Maryzilla), please think about this parallel situation: Italian Jews, even though Italy was a close ally of Germany during the war, were not deported to Auschwitz until late 1943. How come? What factors affected the timing of deportations of Jews from Italy?

David, if you can figure out some reasons for this, you might (I hope) be able to apply the same kind of thinking to the situation in France, where the timing of deportations also differed to those of Austria/Germany but also had a different chronology to the deportations of Jews from Italy.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Cerdic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:34 pm

This isn't another Wannsee thread - it's worse than that.
„(...) Wenn wir irgendetwas beim Nationalsozialismus anerkennen, dann ist es die Anerkennung, daß ihm zum ersten Mal in der deutschen Politik die restlose Mobilisierung der menschlichen Dummheit gelungen ist.“ Kurt Schumacher 23. Februar 1932

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Balsamo » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:37 pm

Actually,
As i said, it is not surprising that the fellow deniers aroung here will remain silent. Even deniers with more knowledge tend to keep quite about this period - end of 41 up to mid 42.
The only reason i see is because this period is very well documented, even though without understanding the functioning of the Reich, the documentation is hard to digest or, at least to put in perspective. So most deniers will simply try to reduce those documents the best they can, without trying to read even a little a part of them.

This is the period of the shoah that is the best "historizised" and for which it takes a lot of bad faith to deny the murder intend of some Nazi authorities. So it is not a surprise that they just will ignore it. Too much documents i guess.

Indeed, Cerdic, it is not about a conference, here we should deal with the core of the reality...real massacres,
real deads, real inhumane policies...in a word, real crimes...the real nazi world.

Oh and by "historizied", i also mean that there are various views among historians, real debates...As you would have understood my views are rather ultra-structuralist even among functionalists...lol...
But the "fun" is that what happened cannot be denied with the usual denier's fallacies, i think i remember that even our dear Been-there did not deny the shootings in the Baltic States....



,

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:11 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
?????????
I know you don't. That's why I mentioned it to you.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Balsamo » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:25 pm

you mean the distinction between ethnic cleansing - by shootings trainloads of people, removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong to a place where they could starve quietly, or for the lucky ones to work in minefields until they die - and extermination ?

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:20 pm

Balsamo wrote:. . . i think i remember that even our dear Been-there did not deny the shootings in the Baltic States....
Right-o, this is NOT about the conference - nor about policies alone, in a formal sense. It's about the interplay of events, decisions, policy, tactics, war-time logic, diplomacy, economic factors, the Party and government, and so on.

As to been-there, my recollection is that he kind of admitted that some bad stuff happened in the Baltics, it's undisputed, only then he disputed what happened there, saying that there was a war on and all so of course everyone was brutal, the Germans didn't target Jews, the German police units were up against partisans, there may have been some German reprisal actions, the killings were cases of inter-ethnic conflict in the region and/or carried out at the initiative of the Lithuanians, for example, and not on the responsibility of the Germans, the locals carried out nasty pogroms, the Communists murdered people in the Baltics, people weren't put to death in gas chambers the way the holocaust mythology of mass-genocide in factory-of-death homicidal gaschambers claims Jews were killed, the figures of missing people is inflated, and Colonel Jaeger was a bad-ass rogue operator who perhaps took credit to impress superiors of the unordered unplanned actions of Lithuanians - and also been-there said that my posts on the history of that region were wall-of-text obfuscation with ad hominems so he didn't really know what was being said about the Baltics - and he told me that I need to understand the distinction between democide and genocide in order to say empirically whether the Jews were killed en masse - and whatever massacres there were now get overplayed and were not anyway examples of genocide - so, frankly, who knows what been-there makes of the extermination of the Jews of the Baltics in the early days of the German war against the USSR?
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:21 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Just make sure you know the difference between ethnic cleansing and extermination before you start flapping your lips.
?????????
I know you don't. That's why I mentioned it to you.
I know the distinction, I was wondering why you think I don't and what relevance the distinction has to, oh, say, Treblinka? Or, well, the Baltics? Or Lodz and its relation to Chelmno? Or Izbica? Maly-Trostinets? You know, the topics under discussion in the threads that led to this thread.

We can count on you not to explain your comment. So no need to make the effort not to. We've seen your BS enough already.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:26 pm

Balsamo wrote:you mean the distinction between ethnic cleansing - by shootings trainloads of people, removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong to a place where they could starve quietly, or for the lucky ones to work in minefields until they die - and extermination ?
I can see you don't have a clear grasp of the subtlety and nuances either. Not surprising. A good way to think about it is that extermination is a type of ethnic cleansing. But it is not necessary to exterminate people to carry out an ethnic cleansing.

Part of your definition of ethnic cleansing--the "removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong" part--is accurate. It's what the Georgians did to the Cherokee in the 1830s, Nazis did to the Jews during WW2, the Americans did to the Japanese during WW2, the Czechs, Poles, Russians, etc. did to the Germans after WW2, the Jews did and are doing to the Arab population in Palestine today, etc.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned that result in the death of the people being ethnically cleansed might be closer to an extermination policy.

The point is that academic scholarly professor types and most laypeople make distinctions between and ethnic cleansing and extermination. To say there is a policy of extermination, you need evidence of this. You can't take evidence of an ethnic cleansing and say that it's evidence of extermination. Like, you can't say "Oh Looky here! A telegram with numbers on it! Proof of extermination!" or "Oh Looky here! Somebody counted the trains that passed through their station. Proof of extermination"

If you want to say there was extermination, you need proof of that. It's really quite simple but you people consistently fail to grasp the difference.

So, now, what is it about Third Reich Jewish policy you wanted to discuss?
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:41 pm

Extermination:

Ausrottung

noun
die Vernichtung
destruction, extermination, annihilation, death, extinction, obliteration

die Ausrottung
extermination, eradication

die Vertilgung
extermination, destruction, eradication

How Native German Speakers Read "Ausrotten"

the IHR translates
"die Juden ausrotten"
as "exterminate the Jews"

While looking at the meaning of the word "ausrotten" (or "Ausrottung"), it is useful to see how Germans use the word themselves.

In particular, since it is English-speaking Holocaust-deniers who invent mistranslations for the word, we may learn something about their level of scholarship by seeing what their German-speaking colleagues have to say.

...

We invite the reader to confirm this, since deniers offer both these texts on the web. Here is the German original and here is the translation.

This is one of the most-read books of Holocaust-denial, published in German on one of its largest websites. The translation is copyrighted by one of the oldest Holocaust-denial organizations, the Institute for Historical Review, and is published on one of the largest denial websites, CODOH.

English-speakers, take note: This is how deniers use the word "ausrotten" when they think you're not looking.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/himmle ... tive.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


(Note: The provided links in above text aren't working for me.)
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Balsamo wrote:you mean the distinction between ethnic cleansing - by shootings trainloads of people, removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong to a place where they could starve quietly, or for the lucky ones to work in minefields until they die - and extermination ?
I can see you don't have a clear grasp of the subtlety and nuances either. Not surprising. A good way to think about it is that extermination is a type of ethnic cleansing. But it is not necessary to exterminate people to carry out an ethnic cleansing.

Part of your definition of ethnic cleansing--the "removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong" part--is accurate. It's what the Georgians did to the Cherokee in the 1830s, Nazis did to the Jews during WW2, the Americans did to the Japanese during WW2, the Czechs, Poles, Russians, etc. did to the Germans after WW2, the Jews did and are doing to the Arab population in Palestine today, etc.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned that result in the death of the people being ethnically cleansed might be closer to an extermination policy.

The point is that academic scholarly professor types and most laypeople make distinctions between and ethnic cleansing and extermination. To say there is a policy of extermination, you need evidence of this. You can't take evidence of an ethnic cleansing and say that it's evidence of extermination. Like, you can't say "Oh Looky here! A telegram with numbers on it! Proof of extermination!" or "Oh Looky here! Somebody counted the trains that passed through their station. Proof of extermination"

If you want to say there was extermination, you need proof of that. It's really quite simple but you people consistently fail to grasp the difference.

So, now, what is it about Third Reich Jewish policy you wanted to discuss?
LOL, everyone here knows the distinction between "mere" ethnic cleansing and extermination, idiot.

What we're interested in, on this little tangent, is your explanation of your claim, and of the relevant evidence, that Jews were removed from German controlled Europe - but not subjected to mass execution to remove them from earth. Say in the Baltics.

To give us something specific to discuss.

So how did ethnic cleansing work in the Baltics in 1941-1942? Pray tell. Where were the Jews of the Baltics removed to?

(I have to say your ability to discern bitter irony is none too good, just sayin'.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Balsamo » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:49 pm

Mary Q
So, now, what is it about Third Reich Jewish policy you wanted to discuss?
As StatMec said, one could start with the Baltic States...
Or you could chose Serbia - where as far as i know, there was no plan for German settlements...

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:09 pm

Serbia also a good discussion point - the Baltic countries, Serbia, maybe the Warthegau. I really do hope we can get beyond David's pinballing and Maryzilla's horrific case of OCD and have a discussion about what happened, or, as some would say, history - and have this discussion in the light of Maryzilla's bold truisms about ethnic cleansing.

To remind Maryzilla, who has a "where were Jews taken to" allergy, ethnic cleansing, her new mantra, doesn't involve her earlier magic hook called emigration - and does involve people's being shoved somewhere, say, "another" region, as even Maryzilla, who doesn't want to say where, acknowledges in writing
Part of your definition of ethnic cleansing--the "removing them from a region to another while stealing everything they belong" part--is accurate. It's what . . . Nazis did to the Jews during WW2. . . .
So, one more time, to where
during WW2
did the Nazis remove Jews living in the Baltics, Serbia, or the Warthegau?
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:52 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:. . . continued from here. . .

David, we understand that you find it mysterious that French Jews weren't deported to the death camps right off the bat, so to speak. You even wrote that
The Germans occupied France for 4 years. What do you think the "timing issue" was for carrying out the "Final Solution" in France, 1947? In fact, it seems that French Jewish citizens were exempt from deportation.
You appear to be struggling with a simple concept (time) as well as with empirical information (what we know about deportations from France, for example).

To help you figure out what is clear to everyone else (except the terminally baffled Maryzilla), please think about this parallel situation: Italian Jews, even though Italy was a close ally of Germany during the war, were not deported to Auschwitz until late 1943. How come? What factors affected the timing of deportations of Jews from Italy?

David, if you can figure out some reasons for this, you might (I hope) be able to apply the same kind of thinking to the situation in France, where the timing of deportations also differed to those of Austria/Germany but also had a different chronology to the deportations of Jews from Italy.
Another argument David has given us - I presume against any German effort to exterminate Jews in western European countries - is this puzzler:
David wrote:. . . French/Jewish citizens who had less than 5% losses . . .
As we know, about 1/4 of the Jews living in France during the war were deported and murdered (75,000 out of a population of 350,000 IIRC, approximately 50,000 of the victims being stateless, foreign-born Jews and 25,000 being French citizens). Deportations of French Jews to Auschwitz began with one small transport in March 1942, picked up in scope during summer 1942, and went on, with ups and downs, until 1944.

OTOH almost 3 of 4 Dutch Jews were deported from the Netherlands, and nearly all those deported perished, beginning in summer 1942 - 102,000 out of a population of 140,000.

It would be interesting for David to tell us what accounted for the differences between France and the Netherlands.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:18 pm

One more case for David to explain to us, given the supposed German policy of non-murder of Europe's Jews, that of Slovakia.

As is well known, the Nazis secured agreement of Tiso's government to begin deporting Slovakian Jews about the same time as the first deportation of French Jews to Auschwitz, that is, March 1942. By the end of 1942, about 58,000 Slovak Jews had been deported. About 1/3 of the trains went to Auschwitz, 2/3 of them first to labor camps in Lublin district, some of those transported being taken to Majdanek. 2 trains went to Izbica. In fall 1944, another 12,000+ Slovakian Jews were rounded up by Einsatzgruppe H and mostly sent to Auschwitz, many of them surviving as extermination operations at Birkenau were stopped during the latter part of this operation. About the same % of Slovakian Jews perished as a result of the German actions as of Dutch Jews - some 65,000 of the almost 90,000 Jews living in Slovakia after the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia.

I am curious about David's explanation of the deportations from Slovakia, as well as the Netherlands, in comparison to those from France.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Balsamo » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:38 am

I was about to answer when i remembered that my name was not David... :D

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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:48 am

We can read in this forum recent posts from David that argue that the Third Reich didn't have a policy for or aim of eliminating Jews from Europe by mass murder and from Mary Q Contrary stating that the Nazis didn't try to exterminate European Jews.

These posts bring to mind a passage in Alon Confino's recent book, World Without Jews, page 225, describing the determination of the Nazis to be finished with the Jews and focusing on the tiny Jewish population of Corfu in southern Europe:
Then, three days after the Allies landed in Normandy, on June 9, 1944, the Germans found the presence of mind to deport the Jews from the remote Mediterranean island of Corfu. The Jewish community, existing in good number from the fourteenth century, included Sephardic Jews from Greece, Spain, and southern Italy. Their deportation could not assist in the war effort. Indeed, it hurt this effort, because it demand special gasoline for the boats that was very expensive. But on June 7, 1944, the Allies entered Rome, the German hold on Corfu seemed short-lived, and they did not want to leave the island with the Jewish community alive. On Friday at 5:00 a.m. the Germans knocked on every Jewish door on the island. The entire community, 2,000 people, was assembled in the main square. Allied planes hovered above, but the Germans continued. The Jews were forced to surrender their valuables and hand over keys to their homes. . . . Several days afterwards the Jews were placed on barges pulled by motorboats and transported first to Patras and then to Athens, where they were put in cattle cars bound for Auschwitz. Ninety-one percent of the Jews of Corfu died in the Holocaust.
Other historians, of course, describe these events, including Michael Matsas, whose book, The Illusion of Safety: The Story of the Greek Jews During World War Two, Confino cites. The “prearrest” (that is, pre-9 June 1944) Jewish population of Corfu, according to Matsas, page 83, was 2,000. The “postwar” Jewish population on the island was 187.

Where did they go? Following the German roundup of 9 June 1944, the Jewish
captives were taken inside the neighboring old fortress, where they were forced to surrender their valuables. . . . On June 11 [the Germans] placed 300 women on barges pulled by motorboats. . . . The barges arrived at the port of Iguomenitsa on the Greek mainland, where wiring trucks transported the women to Athens. On June 14 the males prisoners, along with the remaining women and children, were transported by a tugboat towards Lefkas. . . . Emil Jaeger, commander of the island . . . reported the following:
. . . On May 30, Captain Magnus, Commander of the Navy in western Greece, placed at my and Burger’s disposal (in spite of the enormous expense of 9,000 gallons of petrol), other barges for the transfer of 1,795 Jews from Corfu to Piraeus.
Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, who did autopsies in the Auschwitz crematoria, related the arrival and fate of the Corfu deportees from the 11 June transport:
Last night they burned the Greek jews from the Mediterranean island of Corfu, one of the oldest communities in Europe. The victims were kept for twenty-seven days without food or water. When they arrived at Auschwitz’s loading platform, the doors were unlocked, but no one got up for selection. Half of them were already dead and half in a coma. The entire convoy without exception was sent to number two crematorium.
Matsas, pages 115-117

Jaeger, whom Matsas concludes was not briefed on the final solution, had advocated to his superiors against deporting these Jews.

Shaul Chazan, a member of the Birkenau Sonderkommando from Salonika, brought to Auschwitz in April 1944 along with Jews from various towns in Greece, told interviewer Gideon Greif about the arrival of Jews from Corfu at Birkenau (We Wept Without Tears, page 270):
Once a transport from Corfu came. . . . There weren’t any more grips from Greece. See, it was almost over by the time I came.The last Greeks were the ones from Corfu . . .
Armando Aaron, a Jew taken to Birkenau from Corfu, gave testimony about the deportation of Corfu Jews, describing the journey of the Corfu Jews on a transport arriving at Birkenau on, he recalled, 29 June 1944. According to Danuta Czech’s Auschwitz Chronicle, page 654,
an RSHA transport from Athens and the island of Corfu
with 2,044 Jews arrived at the camp on 30 June 1944, a day later than Aaron recalled:
446 men, given Numbers A-15229-A-15674, and 175 women, given Nos. A-8282-A-8456, are admitted to the camp. The remaining 1,423 people are killed in the gas chambers.

Czech’s sources include documents held by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, a quarantine list, a statement of former prisoner Enrica Jong, and Arolsen documents. In the appendix of The Holocaust Odyssey of Danny Bennahmais is a table, apparently constructed by Bennahmias, Stephen Bowman, and Rebecca Camhi Fromer, summarizing the transports from Greece to Auschwitz (page 123); Bennahmias was on the 20th transport, whereas the “Ateny i Korfu” transport described above was no. 21, next to last of the Greek transports, arriving 30 June 1944; this table has some slight discrepancies to Czech but also concludes that 1,423 deportees did not receive numbers and were gassed. The Athens/Corfu transports of this period are also noted in volume II of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum camp history, Auschwitz 1940-1944: Central Issues in the History of the Camp.
 
Finally, according to a USHMM on-line article on Corfu
In July 1944, 435 of the men who had arrived at Aushwitz-Birkenau on the transport chose immediate death rather than joining the Sonderkommando, the special detachment forced to help the Germans destroy the bodies of Jewish prisoners.

This act of resistance is also noted in Steven Bowman, “Greek Responses to the Nazis in the Mountains and Camps,” P. Henry, ed., Jewish Reistance Against the Nazis, pages 178-179. Also Olga Lengel recounts this event.
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Re: Third Reich Judenpolitik - Not Another Wannsee Thread!

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:31 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:48 am
We can read in this forum recent posts from David that argue that the Third Reich didn't have a policy for or aim of eliminating Jews from Europe by mass murder and from Mary Q Contrary stating that the Nazis didn't try to exterminate European Jews.

These posts bring to mind a passage in Alon Confino's recent book, World Without Jews, page 225, describing the determination of the Nazis to be finished with the Jews and focusing on the tiny Jewish population of Corfu in southern Europe:
Then, three days after the Allies landed in Normandy, on June 9, 1944, the Germans found the presence of mind to deport the Jews from the remote Mediterranean island of Corfu. The Jewish community, existing in good number from the fourteenth century, included Sephardic Jews from Greece, Spain, and southern Italy. Their deportation could not assist in the war effort. Indeed, it hurt this effort, because it demand special gasoline for the boats that was very expensive. But on June 7, 1944, the Allies entered Rome, the German hold on Corfu seemed short-lived, and they did not want to leave the island with the Jewish community alive. On Friday at 5:00 a.m. the Germans knocked on every Jewish door on the island. The entire community, 2,000 people, was assembled in the main square. Allied planes hovered above, but the Germans continued. The Jews were forced to surrender their valuables and hand over keys to their homes. . . . Several days afterwards the Jews were placed on barges pulled by motorboats and transported first to Patras and then to Athens, where they were put in cattle cars bound for Auschwitz. Ninety-one percent of the Jews of Corfu died in the Holocaust.
Other historians, of course, describe these events, including Michael Matsas, whose book, The Illusion of Safety: The Story of the Greek Jews During World War Two, Confino cites. The “prearrest” (that is, pre-9 June 1944) Jewish population of Corfu, according to Matsas, page 83, was 2,000. The “postwar” Jewish population on the island was 187.

Where did they go? Following the German roundup of 9 June 1944, the Jewish
captives were taken inside the neighboring old fortress, where they were forced to surrender their valuables. . . . On June 11 [the Germans] placed 300 women on barges pulled by motorboats. . . . The barges arrived at the port of Iguomenitsa on the Greek mainland, where wiring trucks transported the women to Athens. On June 14 the males prisoners, along with the remaining women and children, were transported by a tugboat towards Lefkas. . . . Emil Jaeger, commander of the island . . . reported the following:
. . . On May 30, Captain Magnus, Commander of the Navy in western Greece, placed at my and Burger’s disposal (in spite of the enormous expense of 9,000 gallons of petrol), other barges for the transfer of 1,795 Jews from Corfu to Piraeus.
Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, who did autopsies in the Auschwitz crematoria, related the arrival and fate of the Corfu deportees from the 11 June transport:
Last night they burned the Greek jews from the Mediterranean island of Corfu, one of the oldest communities in Europe. The victims were kept for twenty-seven days without food or water. When they arrived at Auschwitz’s loading platform, the doors were unlocked, but no one got up for selection. Half of them were already dead and half in a coma. The entire convoy without exception was sent to number two crematorium.
Matsas, pages 115-117

Jaeger, whom Matsas concludes was not briefed on the final solution, had advocated to his superiors against deporting these Jews.

Shaul Chazan, a member of the Birkenau Sonderkommando from Salonika, brought to Auschwitz in April 1944 along with Jews from various towns in Greece, told interviewer Gideon Greif about the arrival of Jews from Corfu at Birkenau (We Wept Without Tears, page 270):
Once a transport from Corfu came. . . . There weren’t any more grips from Greece. See, it was almost over by the time I came.The last Greeks were the ones from Corfu . . .
Armando Aaron, a Jew taken to Birkenau from Corfu, gave testimony about the deportation of Corfu Jews, describing the journey of the Corfu Jews on a transport arriving at Birkenau on, he recalled, 29 June 1944. According to Danuta Czech’s Auschwitz Chronicle, page 654,
an RSHA transport from Athens and the island of Corfu
with 2,044 Jews arrived at the camp on 30 June 1944, a day later than Aaron recalled:
446 men, given Numbers A-15229-A-15674, and 175 women, given Nos. A-8282-A-8456, are admitted to the camp. The remaining 1,423 people are killed in the gas chambers.

Czech’s sources include documents held by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, a quarantine list, a statement of former prisoner Enrica Jong, and Arolsen documents. In the appendix of The Holocaust Odyssey of Danny Bennahmais is a table, apparently constructed by Bennahmias, Stephen Bowman, and Rebecca Camhi Fromer, summarizing the transports from Greece to Auschwitz (page 123); Bennahmias was on the 20th transport, whereas the “Ateny i Korfu” transport described above was no. 21, next to last of the Greek transports, arriving 30 June 1944; this table has some slight discrepancies to Czech but also concludes that 1,423 deportees did not receive numbers and were gassed. The Athens/Corfu transports of this period are also noted in volume II of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum camp history, Auschwitz 1940-1944: Central Issues in the History of the Camp.
 
Finally, according to a USHMM on-line article on Corfu
In July 1944, 435 of the men who had arrived at Aushwitz-Birkenau on the transport chose immediate death rather than joining the Sonderkommando, the special detachment forced to help the Germans destroy the bodies of Jewish prisoners.

This act of resistance is also noted in Steven Bowman, “Greek Responses to the Nazis in the Mountains and Camps,” P. Henry, ed., Jewish Reistance Against the Nazis, pages 178-179. Also Olga Lengel recounts this event.
On 23 July 1944, shortly after the halt of the massive Hungarian transports to Auschwitz, the Germans deported to Auschwitz about 2,500 Jews from the islands of Rhodes (1,661) and Kos (94) as well as the city of Athens (700-900). About 600 of these deportees entered the Auschwitz camp; the rest were gassed. This transport was similar in some ways to the June 1944 deportation of about 1,800 Jews from the island of Corfu.

Some important features of Rhodes Jewry should be noted in this:

- the Jewish community of Rhodes, a Sephardic community, was important to and well integrated into the local and regional economy (it dated to about 1500)
- even so, most Rhodes Jews were poor traders or merchants with small, family businesses
- of the three groups of non-Italians on Rhodes (the Jews, Greeks, Turks), the Jews participated most in Italian politics - many joined Fascist organizations, especially the youth, and there was strong support among the Jewish community for Italian imperialism in the Mediterranean region
- because of the difficult economy on the island, there was a history of Rhodes Jews migrating from the island in search of opportunity - after passage of the Italian racial laws in 1938, a large emigration occurred encouraged by the unexpected, novel development

Germany occupied Rhodes in September 1943, after Italy’s armistice with the Allies. The German military commander, Ulrich Kleemann, faced security, provisioning, and personnel concerns. Kleemann was not initially in favor of the deportation of the Jews in summer 1944 on account of the potential that the action would cause security problems and economic disruption. Nevertheless, months before Eichmann’s men organized the deportation, the military had registered the island’s Jews in anticipation of getting rid of them. Kleemann was instructed by Berlin to assist in the deportation and made personnel available to do so.

Try as I might I cannot fit these late, small actions against the Jews of Corfu and Rhodes into the frameworks suggested by Bloxham or Brayard to explain the Final Solution, let alone the obsessions repeated by “revisionists” to deny the Final Solution. Security, food, economic, or other concerns do not explain these deportations to Auschwitz. In fact, the Jews on the island of Rhodes were assimilated to Fascist Italy's projects, far from being a Judeo-Bolshevik cell of subversives and terrorists. Further, the removal of the Jews from Rhodes and Corfu was a distraction from the security priorities of the military. Military responses to Allied operations in the region slowed down the deportation. As one military officer protested in the case of Corfu, the island was “military frontline” and the action against the Jews would unsettle the local population, strengthen Allied propaganda, and help local partisans. On Rhodes, too, Kleemann feared that the Jewish action would destabilize the situation. Berlin perceived matters through the lens of the European Final Solution, however. The Jews themselves were told that they were being sent somewhere (locally or to Germany) to work - but only a quarter of them were kept alive. Clearly, in July 1944 the Germans could not send Jews “to the East.” Neither Corfu nor Rhodes was part of the alleged core of “Eastern Jewry” or its supposed power base. The operation was not a secret SS action but a collaboration by the military and the SS.

A decision by the Germans in favor of extermination of the Jews of Europe is the most satisfactory, and simplest, explanation for the Corfu and Rhodes liquidation actions. Eichmann's office sent the eventual leader of the island operations, Anton Burger, to Athens in March 1944, replacing Wisliceny who had done the massive Salonika action in 1943 but been moved on to Bratislava. The island action became possible in the light of events in Italy in late 1943 and the German takeover of Italian occupied Greece. Not until months after the German takeover did Burger's team get to the outlying eastern islands of Rhodes and Kos, with their small Jewish communities. But the team did take action, in accordance with the efforts to complete the Final Solution in Greece, sending the Jews of Rhodes and Kos to Auschwitz in the final Greek transport to the camp.

source: Anthony McElligott, "The Deportation of the Jews of Rhodes, 1944: An Integrated History," in Antoniou & Moses, eds, The Holocaust in Greece, pp 58-85
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