What happened to deported Central European Jews?

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What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:12 am

In this non sequitur in the Treblinka Transit Camp thread, David tries to change the subject from the use of Treblinka as a transit camp for resettling Polish Jews further to the East - for which “hypothesis” he has no evidence and says that he is unable to
make a claim as to where or if or how many Polish Jews were transported -
to the deportations of Jews from Austria.

To escape the hole he’s dug for himself with Treblinka, David uses the diversionary topic of transports of Austrian Jews to the East, in the process confusing two distinct matters - the supposed use of Treblinka for transit further east and the deportations of these central European Jews to various places outside Germany in occupied areas.

But the topic of the fate of the central European Jews, and what happened to them in the occupied east, is an interesting one in its own right, well covered by scholars and worthy of our discussion.

This thread is for David and other revisionists to complete the picture David started to draw when he posted
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:You asked for evidence that Treblinka II was related to resettlement.
I pointed out the obvious fact that Treblinka II was closed when resettlement
stopped.
LOL asked to prove resettlement, you assume resettlement. This is as piss-poor as using a circular definition to explain what a word means, David. You're completely hatstand. You actually think you've made a point, don't you?
David wrote:As to my spinning a fantasy view of resettlement, I haven't. I don't make a claim
as to where or if or how many Polish Jews were transported.
This is your disingenuous way of admitting you've got no evidence for any sort of resettlement hypothesis - otherwise you'd have an idea of where, how, and if Polish Jews were resettled.

Snip drivel.
Hello SM- You have your undies in a knot. I was merely saying
I do not claim that all Polish Jews were resettled.

Obviously there is lots of evidence of transports of Jews to "the East" where
there are complete records.
Please take a look at transports out of Austria in 1941 and 1942. That is useful since complete lists exist and German policy is clear
…lots of transports off to Riga, Vidzem, Latvia, MALY TROSTENETS
Clear evidence of a policy of deporting most people to "the East" or to THERESIENSTADT, CZECHOSLOVAKIA- a few transports to Auschwitz and Sobibor.




Here;
Transport 11 , Train Da 29 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to KAUNAS, KAUNAS, LITHUANIA on 23/11/1941 link 23/11/1941 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 12 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 28/11/1941 link 28/11/1941 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1001
Transport 13 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to RIGA, RIGA, VIDZEME, LATVIA on 03/12/1941 link 03/12/1941 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1001
Transport 14 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to RIGA, RIGA, VIDZEME, LATVIA on 11/01/1942 link 11/01/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 15 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to RIGA, RIGA, VIDZEME, LATVIA on 26/01/1942 link 26/01/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1201
Transport 16 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to RIGA, RIGA, VIDZEME, LATVIA on 06/02/1942 link 06/02/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1003

Transport 19 , Train Da 201 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 06/05/1942 link
Transport 22 , Train Da 203 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 20/05/1942 link 20/05/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 23 , Train Da 204 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 27/05/1942 link 27/05/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 24 , Train Da 205 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 02/06/1942 link 02/06/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 26 , Train Da 206 from VIENNA,VIENNA,AUSTRIA to MINSK, MINSK CITY, MINSK, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 09/06/1942 link 09/06/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1006
Transport 28 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 20/06/1942 link 20/06/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1001
Transport 29 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 28/06/1942 link 28/06/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1005
Transport 30 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 10/07/1942 link 10/07/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 31 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 14/07/1942 link 14/07/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1001
Transport 33 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 22/07/1942 link 22/07/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1005
Transport 34 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 28/07/1942 link 28/071942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 35 , Train Da 501 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 13/08/1942 link 13/08/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1001
Transport 36 , Train Da 223 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MALY TROSTENETS, Camp, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 17/08/1942 link 17/08/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1003
Transport 37 , Train Da 504 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 20/08/1942 link 20/08/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 38 , Train Da 507 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 27/08/1942 link 27/08/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 39 , Train Da 225 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MALY TROSTENETS, Camp, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 31/08/1942 link 31/08/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 40 , Train Da 513 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 10/09/1942 link 10/09/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 41 , Train Da 227 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MALY TROSTENETS, Camp, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 14/09/1942 link 14/09/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1000
Transport 42 , Train Da 519 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 24/09/1942 link 24/09/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1300
Transport 43 , Train Da 522 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 01/10/1942 link 01/10/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 1299
Transport 44 , Train Da 230 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to MALY TROSTENETS, Camp, BELORUSSIA (USSR) on 05/10/1942 link 05/10/1942 WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA 547
Transport 45 , Train Da 525 from WIEN, VIENNA, AUSTRIA to THERESIENSTADT, GHETTO, CZECHOSLOVAKIA on 09/10/1942 link 09/10/1942

For the complete list of deportations from Austria see-
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/about/in ... ry=AUSTRIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please, David and revisionists, explain to us what happened when Jews from Austria (and Germany and the Protectorate) were taken during the period David mentions to places like Lodz, Kaunas, Riga, Wlodowa (near Sobibor), Minsk, Izbica, Maly Trostinets, and Theresienstadt - and how you know what happened to these Jews expelled from central Europe after they reached such places.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:10 am

May I ask anyone for some suggestions concerning reading materials? Are there one or two authoritative books that I can read to understand the "whole system" or is this more a matter, best read through numerous separate books and papers?

(Are there one or two books I can order over the internet and read to catch up?)

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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:28 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:In this non sequitur in the Treblinka Transit Camp thread, David tries to change the subject from the use of Treblinka as a transit camp for resettling Polish Jews further to the East - for which “hypothesis” he has no evidence and says that he is unable to
make a claim as to where or if or how many Polish Jews were transported -
to the deportations of Jews from Austria.
Hello SM- So you feel that the extensive history of transport of
Jews to "the East" is a non sequitur to a discussion of evidence supporting the idea
that Jews were deported to the East? I must say I don't know how to respond
to such brilliant Believer logic.

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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:52 am

David wrote:Hello SM- So you feel that the extensive history of transport of
Jews to "the East" is a non sequitur to a discussion of evidence supporting the idea that Jews were deported to the East?
No.

Just as I wrote, it is a non sequitur to a discussion that began
Nessie wrote:Prove to me that Treblinka II was a transit camp please.

Deportations of Austrian Jews eastward to the Baltics, Lublin region, Minsk in Belorussia, the Warthegau, and Theresienstadt are hardly germane to such a discussion, which you well know, and which is why you raised the matter - to divert attention from your failure to provide even the tiniest evidence about what happened to Jews sent to, er, Treblinka.
David wrote:I must say I don't know how to respond to such brilliant Believer logic.
I have a couple suggestions: 1) You could answer the questions asked - those concerning the function of Treblinka in this thread; those concerning the fate of central European Jews deported to occupied territory here. 2) You could tell us what the role Treblinka played when it comes to deported Austrian Jews - and then explain why you think the deportations of Austrian Jews to not-Treblinka help prove Treblinka was a transit camp. 3) You could develop your theory about the deportations of Austrian Jews - why they were deported to the places they were sent and what happened to them there - and support this theory with evidence. 4) You could return to the Treblinka/Transit thread and try answering Nessie's OP - using evidence to back up your assertions.

Two things that leave me almost speechless are 1) your not "getting" that bringing in deportations from Austria to places other than Treblinka is diversionary to a discussion of Treblinka and 2) your apparent ignorance of the fate of Austrian Jews deported to occupied territory - e.g., Kaunas, Lodz, Izbica, Riga, and so on.

Oh well. Keep digging. With the knowledge that we're here to shove your miserable lies about Treblinka and about deportations of central European Jews back into your ugly face.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:May I ask anyone for some suggestions concerning reading materials? Are there one or two authoritative books that I can read to understand the "whole system" or is this more a matter, best read through numerous separate books and papers?

(Are there one or two books I can order over the internet and read to catch up?)
Matthew - A couple suggestions for (very different) outstanding one-volume treatments of the course of the genocide are Longerich's Holocaust and The Final Solution: A Genocide by Donald Bloxham (the latter a truly revisionist interpretation, one I have many differences with but a great book, one which is provocative in best sense of the term). Longerich's Himmler bio recycles much material from Holocaust, incorporates a great deal of Himmler specifics and shifts focus to Himmler, and expands on Holocaust - but it is a bit turgid, very long, and not a quick read (I thought it was terrific nonetheless). Another bio, Gerwarth's book on Heydrich, is good - like Longerich, Gerwarth sees the European-wide program implemented starting spring 1942. I still refer to Hilberg's 3 volumes regularly and plan to re-read them start to finish at some point and I use anything by Browning a ton (Origins is probably more dog-eared than the rest). These sorts of books do explain the "system" so to speak, quite well, and have the benefit of tying the various, complex threads together into a comprehensive explanation, explaining institutional politics and roles, laying out both central and regional developments, and accounting for the evolution of Nazi (Longerich's term) Judenpolitik.

To get to some monograph type stuff, for AR, the White Paper by Harrison et al is very helpful and more up to date, of course, than Arad. Chelmno has a good study - Montague's book, especially read alongside Trunk's earlier study of Lodz and Epstein's bio of Greiser (her article on the Warthegau in Heimat, Region, and Empire: Spatial Identities under National Socialism edited by Szejnmann & Umbach is an excellent, brief version treatment of Warthegau). On deportations from the Reich, Beate Meyer's A Fatal Balancing Act: The Dilemma of the Reich Association of Jews in Germany, 1939-1945 is excellent if dense and a bit specialized. Also interesting (a really good read, in contrast to some of the books I am mentioning) in this regard is Mark Roseman's A Past in Hiding, with material on deportations from the Reich, Izbica, and by implication AR. On RSHA and SS architects of all this, some indispensable books are Wildt, An Uncompromising Generation; Ingrao, Believe and Destroy; and Safrian, Eichmann's Men - these latter, even with their special focus, like the general books cited above, help tie threads together very well.

A really fine recent interpretive essay is Confino's World Without Jews.

There's just so much - so I will shut up now and not go off into recent stuff on trials, monographs on regional killing actions in the occupied east or specific camps (I won't tell David that there is a 5-volume study of Auschwitz, for example, that would answer many of his points of confusion), and so on.

I make use of both the comprehensive studies as above and tons of specialist books, articles, and so on.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by nickterry » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:May I ask anyone for some suggestions concerning reading materials? Are there one or two authoritative books that I can read to understand the "whole system" or is this more a matter, best read through numerous separate books and papers?

(Are there one or two books I can order over the internet and read to catch up?)
If you have German, there's an excellent book by Alfred Gottwaldt and Diana Schulle, Die Judendeportationen aus dem deutschen Reich, which covers all deportations from the Reich - i.e. Germany, Austria and the Protectorate. Even if you don't have much German the book is easily comprehensible because every transport is listed twice in tabular form, once by destination and once by date.

These were the countries where deportations went to the most diverse destinations, whereas virtually all western and southeast European Jews were deported to Auschwitz, while most Polish Jews were deported to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno. The other thing to note is that Eichmann's office was in charge of coordinating deportations from the Reich and the rest of Europe, but was not as directly involved in the deportations of Jews already inhabiting the Warthegau (Chelmno) or Generalgouvernement (BST).

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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:17 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:Hello SM- So you feel that the extensive history of transport of
Jews to "the East" is a non sequitur to a discussion of evidence supporting the idea that Jews were deported to the East?
No.
[snip drivel-]

Good. So now you know that German policy was to deport Jews to
"the East."

Do you need some help in understanding why if the train records shown it was German policy was to deport Jews to the East, then it meant that Jews were deported to the East?

Do you understand that against that FACT, a demand for evidence that the Germans
had a policy of deporting people with the last name of Kaufmann is stupid?

I will state here that, in fact, it is obvious that German policy toward Jewish groups
did vary from country to country and from time to time.
It is the Believers who claim that there was some secret, "understanding" that
all European Jews were to be murdered.



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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:09 pm

Jeeze...now that all the Austrian train records show that
people were deported to "points East" or THERESIENSTADT,
the Believers are pulling the "Sea Cucumber Response."

Just so that we can continue this discussion on the same page
could Nick tell us about deportations/immigration of Austrian-Jewish citizens out of Austria prior to October 1941.
Specifically, were any Austrian Jews transported to camps as part of a program
of murder?



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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:25 pm

To a large extent, SM's question is irrelevant to belief in
amazing diesel or steam gas chambers, piles of purple bodies, and millions of disappearing bodies.

Believers often conflate the disappearance of Central European Jewish communities with evidence to support Holocaust Belief.
The first major influence ignored by Believes is Stalin.
One would think that Believes don't know that Stalin and Hitler were partners in
dividing up Poland in 1939. Joe ended up with a bit more than half.
What was the impact of the First Soviet Occupation on Poland and specifically
Polish Jews?




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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:29 pm

Munk.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:13 pm

Is David for real? I mean, I will reply to his silliness, but is this guy pulling our legs? Can anyone be this stupid?
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:57 pm

David wrote:Good. So now you know that German policy was to deport Jews to "the East."
German policy for Reich Jews changed through time: the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory) - and the policy of fall 1941 was not the policy of spring 1942 (deportation for extermination). Nor in 1941-early 1942 was the policy for Reich Jews the same as the German policy for Jews in the occupied USSR, who were being murdered in their 1000s in place, so to speak. Nor were the policies able to be implemented for all Jews in all locations all at once, for example, Jews in western Europe and southern Europe, some of whom lived under occupation and some who lived under allied or collaborating government, which differences meant differing applications of policy. These points are so basic that your not comprehending them suggests that you haven't studied this history at all.

Your bizarre implication that all Jews had to be murdered at once, in the same way, at the camp(s) of your choice for there to be a genocide is beyond stupid.
David wrote:Do you need some help in understanding why if the train records shown it was German policy was to deport Jews to the East, then it meant that Jews were deported to the East?
I asked you what happened to the Jews deported to the East - and was happy to stick with the examples from the Austrian transport lists you tried using. You've not replied - instead you keep waving around "to the East" as though the phrase explains everything. What's wrong? Cat got your tongue?
David wrote:Do you understand that against that FACT, a demand for evidence that the Germans had a policy of deporting people with the last name of Kaufmann is stupid?
I've no idea what you're talking about: I am simply waiting for you to explain to us what happened to Austrian Jews deported to Lodz, Kaunas, Riga, Wlodowa (near Sobibor), Minsk, Izbica, Maly Trostinets, and Theresienstadt.
David wrote:I will state here that, in fact, it is obvious that German policy toward Jewish groups
did vary from country to country and from time to time.
As I've been trying to explain to you - and which doesn't negate the genocide. Especially since early regionally based programs targeted Jews in different places before there was a decision by the Reich leadership to do away with the Jews of Europe. And, as explained above, even when the program of mass murder became European wide during 1942, the Germans faced logistical, diplomatic, and other hurdles which influenced how the murders were carried out.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:20 pm

David wrote:. . . tell us about deportations/immigration of Austrian-Jewish citizens out of Austria prior to October 1941.
Specifically, were any Austrian Jews transported to camps as part of a program
of murder?
The Jews deported from Austria in October 1941 were deported before the Germans had decided in favor of a European-wide extermination of the Jews. Some were murdered in Kaunas in November 1941 (Ninth Fort) and in subsequent months on arrival at Riga (Rumbula); most, however, were incarcerated in ghettos - Minsk, Lodz, Riga, for example - or sent to forced labor camps temporarily. In the ghettos and work camps, deported Jews suffered from the same murderous policies - terror, starvation, slave labor - as local Jews. For example, approximately 5000 Austrian Jews were sent to the Lodz ghetto in 1941 - by war's end IIRC fewer than 40 were alive. The policy of the wholesale murder of central European Jews sent to ghettos and camps in the occupied east evolved by spring 1942; for example, deported Jews were sent to Chelmno where they were gassed, were taken from Minsk ghetto to be murdered in gas vans at Maly Trostinets, and were cleared out of Izbica and sent to Sobibor or Belzec along with Polish Jews from the town.

Your gambit - that because when deportations from the Reich, Austria, and the Protectorate began in fall 1941 the policy was not (yet) to murder these Jews on arrival, therefore "to the East" never involved mass murder and always meant resettlement - is idiotic on its face.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:23 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Is David for real? I mean, I will reply to his silliness, but is this guy pulling our legs? Can anyone be this stupid?
Maybe whoever wrote the program "David" was a little, well, ... odd?
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:38 pm

David wrote:To a large extent, SM's question is irrelevant to belief in amazing diesel or steam gas chambers, piles of purple bodies, and millions of disappearing bodies.
Yes and no. Some of the Jews deported from central Europe to occupied territory died of forced deprivation in ghettos and labor camps; some were shot or gassed by mobile and fixed killing units at places like Rumbula and Maly Trostinets; some were sent to extermination camps - like Chelmno, Sobibor, and Belzec - where they were murdered by gas; and very few survived the genocide.
David wrote:Believers often conflate the disappearance of Central European Jewish communities with evidence to support Holocaust Belief.
I don't know whom you're speaking of - but this is not something I do, at least not as you've stated it. The disappearance of these communities is only part of the story: why and how they disappeared, what became of the people who had lived in them is another part of the story.

Perhaps we should focus, David, as I am trying to get you to do with the Warsaw Jews in the thread on Treblinka/Transit. Here we could discuss central European Jews sent to Lodz or to Riga, for example, and look at evidence for what happened to them, compare that evidence to your alternative belief (as you've already told us you will not make an alternative case but wish to stick to your cherished belief) and to the history as historians understand it.
David wrote:The first major influence ignored by Believes is Stalin.
Give us a break.
David wrote:One would think that Believes don't know that Stalin and Hitler were partners in dividing up Poland in 1939. Joe ended up with a bit more than half.
Give me an example of my not knowing about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the secret protocol and its revision, the division of Poland, the case of the Baltics and Soviet annexations, etc. Give me examples of other "Believes" not knowing these elementary points.
David wrote:What was the impact of the First Soviet Occupation on Poland and specifically Polish Jews?
Now you are making us think that you've forgotten the other part of this story - the German invasion of Poland and the German occupation of its western territory, including the formation of Reichsgaue Wartheland and Danzig-West Prussia as well as the occupation regime in the remainder of Poland, the General-Gouvernement. Did you forget these developments? To characterize the situation in Poland during 1939-1941, for instance, as the First Soviet Occupation "on" Poland is beyond bizarre - but most striking.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: German policy for Reich Jews changed through time: the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory) - and the policy of fall 1941 was not the policy of spring 1942 (deportation for extermination). Nor in 1941-early 1942 was the policy for Reich Jews the same as the German policy for Jews in the occupied USSR, who were being murdered in their 1000s in place, so to speak. Nor were the policies able to be implemented for all Jews in all locations all at once, for example, Jews in western Europe and southern Europe, some of whom lived under occupation and some who lived under allied or collaborating government, which differences meant differing applications of policy. These points are so basic that your not comprehending them suggests that you haven't studied this history at all.
Hello SM.
What about, "I will state here that, in fact, it is obvious that German policy toward Jewish groups did vary from country to country and from time to time"
don't you understand?



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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:36 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Is David for real?
No.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I mean, I will reply to his silliness.....
Your'e not wasting your time. You are helping me and others with gaps in our knowledge.

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How many Central European Jews were killed by Stalin?

Post by David » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:51 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here we could discuss central European Jews sent to Lodz or to Riga, for example, and look at evidence for what happened to them,
Excuse me, SM, but you are starting to bounce around a lot with your
various "explanations." You asked about evidence of transports "to the East."
You got it with the complete train records from Austria.
They show that of hundreds of thousands of Austrian Jews a tiny, tiny fraction
were sent to either Auschwitz or Sobibor.

Now you admit that they were sent "East" but you want to know what happened
to them after they were sent "East."
The good news is that you have revised Orthodox Holocaust Belief significantly to
admit that German policy did vary greatly from time to time and from country to country.
Maybe you should start a new thread explaining how all this multitude of policy
changes and decisions actually worked? Who made the decisions?
Was it Hitler. Was it Himmler? Was it all done in secret code?


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Re: How many Central European Jews were killed by Stalin?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:19 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:Excuse me, SM, but you are starting to bounce around a lot with your various "explanations."

Yes. David can't deal with facts. You know that!
:D
David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Now you admit that they were sent "East" but you want to know what happened to them after they were sent "East."

That's why he asked you six times
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:07 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: German policy for Reich Jews changed through time: the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory) - and the policy of fall 1941 was not the policy of spring 1942 (deportation for extermination). Nor in 1941-early 1942 was the policy for Reich Jews the same as the German policy for Jews in the occupied USSR, who were being murdered in their 1000s in place, so to speak. Nor were the policies able to be implemented for all Jews in all locations all at once, for example, Jews in western Europe and southern Europe, some of whom lived under occupation and some who lived under allied or collaborating government, which differences meant differing applications of policy. These points are so basic that your not comprehending them suggests that you haven't studied this history at all.
Hello SM.
What about, "I will state here that, in fact, it is obvious that German policy toward Jewish groups did vary from country to country and from time to time"
don't you understand?


Instead of echoing your obvious and vacuous sentiment, David, I thought it important to provide some details and add in the time factor - not to mention clarifying that the policy was ultimately genocidal and the genocide was carried out. You think I didn't understand what you were up to? LOL
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Who decided on the various policies?

Post by David » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:08 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Instead of echoing your obvious and vacuous sentiment, David, I thought it important to provide some details and add in the time factor - not to mention clarifying that the policy was ultimately genocidal and the genocide was carried out. You think I didn't understand what you were up to? LOL
Hello SM- Nice that we agree that there were many various
German policies. I feel a bit rude pointing out that your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE
TAKE PLACE?

Your "explanations" all come back to the idea that the Germans had various
policies for different times and different countries. But you fail to tell us the
MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of your observation of the "obvious."

WHO MADE THE DECISIONS SETTING POLICIES?
Do you hold onto the Orthodox view that it was Hitler alone?
Do you hold onto the view that there was a written Order in June 1941?
A verbal order in March 1942?
A general "understanding" carried out at various times by various individuals acting
independently?

Looking forward to hearing the important details.


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Re: Who decided on the various policies?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:27 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Hello SM- Nice that we agree that there were many various German policies. I feel a bit rude pointing out that your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE TAKE PLACE?

Your "explanations" all come back to the idea that the Germans had various
policies for different times and different countries. But you fail to tell us the
MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of your observation of the "obvious."

WHO MADE THE DECISIONS SETTING POLICIES?
Do you hold onto the Orthodox view that it was Hitler alone?
Do you hold onto the view that there was a written Order in June 1941?
A verbal order in March 1942?
A general "understanding" carried out at various times by various individuals acting
independently? Looking forward to hearing the important details.
Stop dodging and answer Statistical Mechanic's question. What happened to these Austrian Jews sent east to places like Riga?

* 16 Mar 1942: First Dünamünde Action. 1,900 Reich Jews from the ghetto are murdered.
* 25 Mar 1942: Second Dünamünde Action. 1,840 Reich Jews from Jumpravmuiža are murdered.
* July 1943: Transfer of ghetto occupants to Kaiserwald (Mežaparks) concentration camp begins.
* 8 Oct 1943: Transfer of Liepāja Ghetto survivors to Riga Ghetto
* 2 Nov 1943: About 2,000 people, including children, their caregivers, the old and the sick, are transported from the ghetto to Auschwitz concentration camp.
* End of Nov 1943: All Jews removed from the ghetto, either by transport to another camp or by murder.

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Re: How many Central European Jews were killed by Stalin?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:42 am

David wrote:Excuse me, SM, but you are starting to bounce around a lot with your
various "explanations."
David, I asked you to tell us about
central European Jews sent to Lodz or to Riga, for example, and look at evidence for what happened to them.
Your lying attempt to move the goalposts - you know, where you pretend I
asked about evidence of transports "to the East"
rather than the fate of the Jews transported to occupied territory - is just another way you're trying to wriggle out of answering questions that are too hard for you.
David wrote:You got it with the complete train records from Austria.
As I've told you, that Austrian Jews were shipped to Kaunas, Riga, Lodz, Izbica, Wlodowa, Minsk/Maly Trostinets is well known, not in dispute, and not what I asked you for. Have you looked up strawman yet?
David wrote:They show that of hundreds of thousands of Austrian Jews a tiny, tiny fraction were sent to either Auschwitz or Sobibor.
So what? Did I claim that large numbers of Austrian Jews were sent to Auschwitz? Was Sobibor, like Treblinka, a scenic way-station for resettlement to the East? Telling us where large numbers of Austrian Jews were not sent is not the same as
explain[ing] to us what happened when Jews from Austria (and Germany and the Protectorate) were taken during the period David mentions to places like Lodz, Kaunas, Riga, Wlodowa (near Sobibor), Minsk, Izbica, Maly Trostinets, and Theresienstadt - and how you know what happened to these Jews expelled from central Europe after they reached such places.
Reminder: by Zyklon B at Auschwitz-Birkenau was far from the only way, or even the main way, that the Nazis murdered Jews during the war.
David wrote:Now you admit that they were sent "East" but you want to know what happened to them after they were sent "East."
No, I have known all along where Austrian and other central European Jews were sent, so there's nothing for me to admit. Besides, I asked you in the first thread in this post, not if Austrian and Reich Jews were sent eastward but to tell us
the fate of the central European Jews, and what happened to them in the occupied east.
You still haven't done so. You're dodging.
David wrote:The good news is that you have revised Orthodox Holocaust Belief
I guess I'm a revisionist, then. Please tell us what is "Orthodox Holocaust Belief" and who practices it.
David wrote:admit that German policy did vary greatly from time to time and from country to country.
This is not something I "admit"; it is what scholars argue and what I agree with - because it is what the evidence shows: also, what you mean by this empty formula is not what scholars and I mean when we discuss the evolution in policy and how it was applied across Europe. Above I gave you some details of what I mean, and, like other points in this thread, you ignored those details. Any reasonable person reading this knows why.
David wrote:Maybe you should start a new thread explaining how all this multitude of policy changes and decisions actually worked? Who made the decisions?
Was it Hitler. Was it Himmler? Was it all done in secret code?
There's no need for me to start a new thread on this. Why would I bother? I've posted on the subject elsewhere at great length, for example in this thread at RODOH666 and in this one as well.

Maybe you should start answering the questions you've been asked in this thread (and in the Treblinka/Transit thread) instead of dodging them with tangents and new questions.
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Re: Who decided on the various policies?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:04 am

David wrote:I feel a bit rude pointing out that your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE TAKE PLACE?
Do you seriously think I don't have thoughts on that? Did you fail to read my post - where I say that
the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory) - and the policy of fall 1941 was not the policy of spring 1942 (deportation for extermination)
or do you entirely lack the ability to make inferences?

At any rate, the links I included in my post just above explain my views on this while acknowledging that other, reasonable cases can be made - not yours, of course, because your notion that there was not a shift to mass murder of the Jews across much of Europe is completely bonkers. (I've discussed these other views in other threads in this forum - e.g., Bloxham's interpretation here.)
David wrote:Your "explanations" all come back to the idea that the Germans had various policies for different times and different countries.
No, this is not what I argued. Try again.
David wrote:But you fail to tell us the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of your observation of the "obvious."

WHO MADE THE DECISIONS SETTING POLICIES?
This isn't the "MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL" - and, of course, the reason I "fail to tell" you about this is simply that we haven't been discussing in depth the development of policy but rather what the policy was and what actions were taken and their consequences. We were trying to discuss in the Treblinka/Transit thread evidence for Treblinka being a transit camp - you have continually dodged doing so - and in this thread we are discussing, or trying to when you aren't dodging and diverting, what happened to the Jews from Austria and central Europe shipped to occupied territory. Answering this specific query doesn't require discussing who made which policy decisions.

Hell, I even tried to help you focus by reminding you that
I asked you what happened to the Jews deported to the East - and was happy to stick with the examples from the Austrian transport lists you tried using. You've not replied - instead you keep waving around "to the East" as though the phrase explains everything. What's wrong? Cat got your tongue?
and suggesting that
we should focus, David, as I am trying to get you to do with the Warsaw Jews in the thread on Treblinka/Transit. Here we could discuss central European Jews sent to Lodz or to Riga, for example, and look at evidence for what happened to them, compare that evidence to your alternative belief (as you've already told us you will not make an alternative case but wish to stick to your cherished belief) and to the history as historians understand it.
We're still waiting for you to do this instead of playing more 20 questions. For now, I am not following your tangents and diversions - please stick to the topic of this thread:
Please, David and revisionists, explain to us what happened when Jews from Austria (and Germany and the Protectorate) were taken during the period David mentions to places like Lodz, Kaunas, Riga, Wlodowa (near Sobibor), Minsk, Izbica, Maly Trostinets, and Theresienstadt - and how you know what happened to these Jews expelled from central Europe after they reached such places.
David wrote:Do you hold onto the Orthodox view that it was Hitler alone?
Citations?
David wrote:Looking forward to hearing the important details.
Read the threads I linked to above - or open a thread on the topic, but stop {!#%@} up this thread with your attempts to divert and get yourself off the hook from replying to specific questions. Ok?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Who decided on the various policies?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Hello SM- Nice that we agree that there were many various German policies. I feel a bit rude pointing out that your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE TAKE PLACE?

Your "explanations" all come back to the idea that the Germans had various
policies for different times and different countries. But you fail to tell us the
MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of your observation of the "obvious."

WHO MADE THE DECISIONS SETTING POLICIES?
Do you hold onto the Orthodox view that it was Hitler alone?
Do you hold onto the view that there was a written Order in June 1941?
A verbal order in March 1942?
A general "understanding" carried out at various times by various individuals acting
independently? Looking forward to hearing the important details.
Stop dodging and answer Statistical Mechanic's question. What happened to these Austrian Jews sent east to places like Riga?

* 16 Mar 1942: First Dünamünde Action. 1,900 Reich Jews from the ghetto are murdered.
* 25 Mar 1942: Second Dünamünde Action. 1,840 Reich Jews from Jumpravmuiža are murdered.
* July 1943: Transfer of ghetto occupants to Kaiserwald (Mežaparks) concentration camp begins.
* 8 Oct 1943: Transfer of Liepāja Ghetto survivors to Riga Ghetto
* 2 Nov 1943: About 2,000 people, including children, their caregivers, the old and the sick, are transported from the ghetto to Auschwitz concentration camp.
* End of Nov 1943: All Jews removed from the ghetto, either by transport to another camp or by murder.
Exactly.

David's trying to wave the magic wands of "to the East" and "Jews were deported," ignoring evidence about anything else involved, to stave off the inescapable knowledge that the central European Jews were, in large part, eventually murdered in the occupied areas, in different ways - deprivation in ghettos, exploitation and abuse in slave labor camps, gas vans at Chelmno and Maly Trostinets, "open air" shootings at Rumbula and the Ninth Fort, gas chambers at Sobibor and Belzec, and so on. Discussing deportation without mentioning its results is just plain stupid and very much in line with David's "know nothing" stance on Treblinka and transit, where he imagines he has, in order to be taken seriously, no obligation to explain what he thinks happened, in the light of all the evidence, as well as of a piece with David's trying to pass off the partition of Poland under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact as "the First Soviet Occupation on [sic] Poland."

In addition, David is ignoring that, prior to the European-wide program of mass murder, the Germans were carrying out genocide in the occupied USSR, for example, wiping out by far most of the Baltic Jews by the end of 1941. There didn't have to be, and there wasn't, in 1941 a European-wide program to exterminate the Jews in order for the Germans already to be killing 100s of 1000s of Jews in the occupied USSR and thereby making large regions, in the Nazis' word, Judenrein.

(We could create a long thread with all of our questions ignored by David . . . LOL)
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Re: Who decided on the various policies?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:51 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:David's trying to wave the magic wands of "to the East" and "Jews were deported," ignoring evidence about anything else involved, to stave off the inescapable knowledge that the central European Jews were, in large part, eventually murdered in the occupied areas


I am guessing that David is vigorously searching holocaust denier internet blogs to find a "close enough" answer he can plagiarise. He has posted his "quick" unrelated diversionary questions to give himself more time to do this.

For the extended period when I was posting against David on my own, the topics were limited to my knowledge and this allowed David to evolve a set of standard responses over time. That's why it is good that you are now introducing other topics. You are breaking "a pattern" which is a good thing.

Statistical Mechanic wrote: We could create a long thread with all of our questions ignored by David . . . LOL
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:35 am

Yeah, I was really hoping the doofus would turn up something to copy-paste on
central European Jews sent to Lodz or to Riga, for example
so we all could
look at evidence for what happened to them, compare that evidence to [David's] alternative belief . . . and to the history as historians understand it.
I guess he is having trouble finding something suitable to plagiarize.

Lodz in particular will do that to them - for example, you can observe been-there of RODOH666 clamming up and then turning tail and fleeing in this ugly thread when asked about a survivor from Lodz whose case he'd introduced.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:12 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Lodz in particular will do that to them - for example, you can observe been-there of RODOH666 clamming up and then turning tail and fleeing in this ugly thread when asked about a survivor from Lodz whose case he'd introduced.
I enjoyed your posted comment.

"The Lodz thread: where revisionists come to discuss anything but (Lodz)" .

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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Lodz in particular will do that to them - for example, you can observe been-there of RODOH666 clamming up and then turning tail and fleeing in this ugly thread when asked about a survivor from Lodz whose case he'd introduced.
I enjoyed your posted comment.

"The Lodz thread: where revisionists come to discuss anything but (Lodz)" .
:lol:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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When did the policy of forced emigration end?

Post by David » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:29 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Do you seriously think I don't have thoughts on that? Did you fail to read my post - where I say that
the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory) - and the policy of fall 1941 was not the policy of spring 1942 (deportation for extermination)
Hello SM-
Yes, I read your post. Maybe you did not understand what I asked.
" your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE TAKE PLACE? Don't feel badly about not understanding
this since Believers are always vague on actual dates.

You have skated over a date which is very relevant to your own question-
When did the policy of forced emigration change to a policy of deportation to
occupied territory?



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Post by David » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:26 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: David's trying to wave the magic wands of "to the East" and "Jews were deported,"
Hello SM- You seem to have forgotten that you fled from the topic of Transit Stop Treblinka in the face of the evidence of train transports of Austrian
Jews to "the East."

Now you have admitted (vaguely) that Germany policy (at some point in time)
was, "the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)"

A little vague there on WHERE the deportations were sent.
To ask you the obvious question- What do you mean by "Occupied Territory?"
Were the deportations to the West or, (as Revisionists say) to the East?

Rather humorously, you have shifted from denying that people were sent "to the
East" to demanding that I tell you what happened to them once they got there. :roll:


You claim, "the central European Jews were, in large part, eventually murdered in the occupied areas, in different ways - deprivation in ghettos, exploitation and abuse in slave labor camps,"
It is clear that you are wrong regarding Austrian Jews: Most had left German-territory by October 1941.



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WHO MADE THE DECISIONS?

Post by David » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:53 am


Consistency is not a Believer thing.
Here we have SM claiming that, " the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)
and claiming that the Germans were "wiping out by far most of the Baltic Jews by the end of 1941."

Statistical Mechanic wrote: by the end of 1941.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:This isn't the "MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL" - and, of course, the reason I "fail to tell"
Besides the fact that most Austrian Jews had left the Reich by the end of 1941, we have zero Bulgarian Jews being deported during the War
5% or so of French/Jewish citizens being deported, 95% of Danish Jews being allowed
to leave to Sweden….so much for your "European-wide program to exterminate 'the Jews'"
So, I understand why you "fail to tell." You don't have a clue how your Tale really
worked, or the date policy changes (allegedly) were made, or even by whom the
policy changes were made.

You have flubbed the first point of what happened to Central European Jewish communities in failing to address the impact of Stalin.
You have flubbed the second point of even being able to tell us what
German policy was or when.

So, to bring up another answer to your question,
What do you think of the publish Wartime casualty rates among Polish Jews?






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Re:

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:08 am

David wrote:Hello SM- You seem to have forgotten that you fled from the topic of Transit Stop Treblinka in the face of the evidence of train transports of Austrian Jews to "the East."
David, you are peculiar, perhaps because you're delusional.

In the first place, I am surprised to find that you think I "fled" from discussion of Treblinka and transit/resettlement when, in reply to your last posts in the discussion, I made this post patiently explaining to you what is meant by evidence for a transit camp and asking that you explain, as a case study, your theory with reference to Warsaw and this post replying to your unwillingness to provide an alternative interpretaition with evidence and calling on you to stop lying about what I've previously written. These were my last posts in the thread, and they followed your last posts . . .so it is rather that you fled than I did. LOL

Second, far from fleeing "in the face of evidence of train transports of Austrian Jews to 'the East,'" I was so glad to see you go off on that diversionary exercise that I opened this thread to discuss these transports and to blast your dishonest use of the "to the East."

You really are a laughable specimen. You try to come off so serious and everything when you write utter BS.
David wrote:Now you have admitted (vaguely)
David, again, I haven't "admitted" what I think; I simply told you my conclusions and also explained their significance.
David wrote: that Germany policy (at some point in time) was, "the policy in 1938 (forced emigration) was not the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)"
You are turning my clear statement into gibberish for a purpose. Stop it.

I do have a serious question, if you can try to be serious: Do you really not know the basic evolution of Nazi policy from the early '30s into '41? Do you not know when the effort to get Jews to emigrate was changed to a policy of deportation? This is such a basic piece of the chronology that your futzing around with it is odd. What is your point - or are you ignorant? I would rather you come out and say what you're trying to say than asking me to repeat the details of countless studies of Third Reich Jewish policy, which we're all familiar with. Ok?
David wrote:A little vague there on WHERE the deportations were sent.
We were discussing a transport list you copy-pasted. Which contained locations to which Jews were sent. I added back some you snipped. How is this being a little vague? Especially when I've repeated to names of the places in question a number of times?
David wrote:To ask you the obvious question- What do you mean by "Occupied Territory?"
Were the deportations to the West or, (as Revisionists say) to the East?
Do you have any friends? I mean, you're a tiresome bore. As you well know, I used "occupied east," "occupied areas," "occupied territory" interchangeably - in the OP I stated the topic clearly:
the topic of the fate of the central European Jews, and what happened to them in the occupied east, is an interesting one in its own right, well covered by scholars and worthy of our discussion.
And
Please, David and revisionists, explain to us what happened when Jews from Austria (and Germany and the Protectorate) were taken during the period David mentions to places like Lodz, Kaunas, Riga, Wlodowa (near Sobibor), Minsk, Izbica, Maly Trostinets, and Theresienstadt - and how you know what happened to these Jews expelled from central Europe after they reached such places..
By the way, instead of replying to my direct request you've quibbled, diverted, hemmed and hawed, gone on tangents, and distorted what's been posted.

We're still waiting for a reply.
David wrote:Rather humorously, you have shifted from denying that people were sent "to the
East" to demanding that I tell you what happened to them once they got there.
No, I argued that people were not transited to the East through Treblinka. Since my view is that most of those brought from central Europe to the places I mentioned - along with Sobibor and Belzec - were killed, and yours is . . . I don't know . . . it seemed important to find out.

To make it clear, in the Treblinka Transit thread you've been unable to show any evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp through which Jews were sent further to the East; for some reason*, you introduced into that thread the topic of Austrian Jews none of whom were sent to Treblinka, and I opened this thread - to discuss what happened to central European Jews who were sent to Poland or other occupied eastern areas.

Instead of telling us what you think, you play semantic games and misrepresent our previous exchanges. Why don't you just answer what you've been asked - instead of objecting to the questions?!?!?!

- - -- - - -- -
* The reason you did this is obvious: to confuse transit of mainly Polish Jews through Treblinka to somewhere further east, as discussed in Nessie's thread, with deportation of central European Jews to killing sites, labor camps, and ghettos in occupied areas of Poland, Belorussia, and the Baltics.
David wrote:You claim, "the central European Jews were, in large part, eventually murdered in the occupied areas, in different ways - deprivation in ghettos, exploitation and abuse in slave labor camps,"
It is clear that you are wrong regarding Austrian Jews: Most had left German-territory by October 1941.
David, this is what is called a non sequitur. Instead of going through why with you, now, I will ask you again to explain what became of the central European Jews sent to just two places - Lodz and Riga.
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Re: When did the policy of forced emigration end?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:18 am

David wrote:Hello SM-
Yes, I read your post. Maybe you did not understand what I asked.
" your "time factor" fails to point out the MOST IMPORTANT DETAIL of a chronology, ie. WHEN DID THE CHANGE TAKE PLACE? Don't feel badly about not understanding
this since Believers are always vague on actual dates.

You have skated over a date which is very relevant to your own question-
When did the policy of forced emigration change to a policy of deportation to
occupied territory?
David, it's so hard to tell if you're being serious or just fooling around.

Anyway, I told you generally in previous posts when this policy change occurred. I thought, of course, as someone who posts here a lot, you'd know about this and that the timing of this change wasn't in dispute.

But, on the off chance you really are as ignorant as you seem, here are two links for you: this one is the wording of Gestapo Mueller's order to halt Jewish emigration, issued 23 October 1941 on Himmler's instructions and specifying that the deportations begun the previous week would continue and this one a moldy old Nizkor article explaining that the deportation actions began on 15 October 1941.
IIRC Browning in Origins covers the policy change, including the build-up, quite well; I think Longerich, Holocaust, also does so nicely.

Tune in tomorrow for more Third Reich Facts 101. Jesus.
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Re: WHO MADE THE DECISIONS?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:33 am

David wrote:Consistency is not a Believer thing.
Here we have SM claiming that, " the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)
and claiming that the Germans were "wiping out by far most of the Baltic Jews by the end of 1941."
It would be helpful if you'd tell us what you find inconsistent in these two points, the first addressing the fate of Reich, Protectorate, and Austrian Jews; the second discussing actions in the Baltics carried out against Baltic Jews by police units, local collaborators, and the Wehrmacht.
David wrote:Besides the fact that most Austrian Jews had left the Reich by the end of 1941, we have zero Bulgarian Jews being deported during the War
5% or so of French/Jewish citizens being deported, 95% of Danish Jews being allowed
to leave to Sweden….so much for your "European-wide program to exterminate 'the Jews'"
So, I understand why you "fail to tell." You don't have a clue how your Tale really
worked, or the date policy changes (allegedly) were made, or even by whom the
policy changes were made.
This is incoherent. We are trying to discuss the deportations of central European Jews - and you bring in Bulgarian Jews??!!?

A few comments, and then let's get back to the topic of this damned thread, ok?
1) Danish Jews were not "allowed to leave"; they were rescued by the underground and moved out of Denmark and harm's way.
2) 76,000 out of about 350,000 French Jews were deported - you will find that this does not calculate to 5%.
3) I've already commented on obstacles to the European-wide final solution:
And, as explained above, even when the program of mass murder became European wide during 1942, the Germans faced logistical, diplomatic, and other hurdles which influenced how the murders were carried out.
So, no, I didn't claim that the final solution was completed, and I didn't claim that results were even across the countries of Europe . . . the European-wide extermination of Jews was begun and carried out, but not finished, for a variety of reasons, among them, to repeat, diplomatic and logistical issues, also responses to labor shortages, the course of the war.
David wrote:You have flubbed the first point of what happened to Central European Jewish communities in failing to address the impact of Stalin.
What are you talking about?
David wrote:You have flubbed the second point of even being able to tell us what German policy was or when.
Instead of handing out grades according to your mysterious and confused criteria, why don't you answer what you were asked in the OP?
David wrote:So, to bring up another answer to your question,
What do you think of the publish Wartime casualty rates among Polish Jews?
Stop posting gibberish (what the hell is "the publish Wartime casualty rates"?*) - stop diverting - answer what you've been asked.

I am getting the idea that those who describe you as a troll are onto something. You are making it clear that, just as you have no evidence for Treblinka's serving as a scenic waystation to the East, you have no interest in discussing the fate of the central European Jews whom you yourself introduced. But, as we know, you introduced them as a distraction - so you wouldn't have to discuss Treblinka. And now you toss in Bulgarian Jews, the evolution of Nazi Jewish policy, and "the publish Wartime casualty rates among Polish Jews" to avoid answering what happened to Austrian Jews! LOL

- - -- - - --
* If you have a point, make it. If you want to ask me a question, tell me what you are talking about. In any event, I've been overly patient, replying to your diversions and even going over basic facts you claim to be ignorant of. No more, in this thread. This thread is to discuss the deportations of Central European Jews in fall 1941 and 1942 and what happened to these people after they were deported. If you try diverting in the future, you will be chatting with yourself.
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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:32 am

Thank you, SM. You are very patient and educational. I really appreciate your posts!
.
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Confusion over German policies.

Post by David » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:49 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here we have SM claiming that, " the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)
and claiming that the Germans were "wiping out by far most of the Baltic Jews by the end of 1941."

It would be helpful if you'd tell us what you find inconsistent in these two points,
They are two radically different policies. I wanted to know
who you claim ordered these two different policies, when, and why.
This relates to your question of what happened to Central European Jews.



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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by David » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:16 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:We are trying to discuss the deportations of central European Jews - and you bring in Bulgarian Jews??!!?
We are trying to get you to present a coherent description of
what "German policy" was and when.
So far you have "deportations to occupied areas" and "mass exterminations"
going on in October 1941. Care to tell us what German policy was to
Bulgarian Jews in October 1941?


A few comments, and then let's get back to the topic of this damned thread, ok?
1) Danish Jews were not "allowed to leave"; they were rescued by the underground and moved out of Denmark and harm's way. Why don't
you go learn about the month long movement of Jews out of Denmark?
Caught you lying.

2) 76,000 out of about 350,000 French Jews were deported - you will find that this does not calculate to 5%. You can't be that ignorant, SM.
You are conflating non-citizen Jewish refugees from eastern Europe with
French/Jewish citizens. The refugees were the target of a weak effort to
transport them back to Eastern Europe. French citizens were largely exempt .
Caught you lying again. Robert O. Paxton is a notorious inflationist but
read his review of Persécutions et entraides dans la France occupée
in the March 6th issue of New York Review of Books.

3) I've already commented on obstacles to the European-wide final solution:
And, as explained above, even when the program of mass murder became European wide during 1942, the Germans faced logistical, diplomatic, and other hurdles which influenced how the murders were carried out.
Obstacles? "explained above?" That is a ipse fixit pronouncement not an explanation. Why would German policy be any different in
Poland than in France?

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Re: What happened to deported Central European Jews?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:04 am

David the insane holocaust denier wrote:Why would German policy be any different in
Poland than in France?
Hmmm let's think......what does the Second Armistice at Compiègne say about German occupation rights in France? Now what is the corresponding treaty of surrender between Germany and Poland? David? Can you tell us?
:D

How are you going answering Statistical's question? You were previously pretending that Jews sent from Austria to Riga were having a lovely time at their new resettlement camp.
Riga.jpg
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Re: Confusion over German policies.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:00 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Here we have SM claiming that, " the policy of fall 1941 (deportation to occupied territory)
and claiming that the Germans were "wiping out by far most of the Baltic Jews by the end of 1941."

It would be helpful if you'd tell us what you find inconsistent in these two points,
They are two radically different policies.
So what?
David wrote: I wanted to know who you claim ordered these two different policies, when, and why.
This relates to your question of what happened to Central European Jews.
My mentioning two German actions that are different is not a case of my being inconsistent, as you accused me of being; rather, it is a case of two different approaches the Germans took.

The deportations of Jews from Greater Germany were agreed by Hitler in September 1941 and ordered, well, I've shown you above by whom.

Bear in mind that these German actions were taken in 1941, as I told you, the first involving Reich, Austrian, and Protectorate Jews and the second directed against Baltic Jews. The timing is important, because in summer and fall 1941 there was not yet a decision in favor of a European-wide extermination of the Jews. Also, that two different populations were involved is different, because at that time there was not yet a decision in favor of a European-wide extermination of the Jews. The central European Jews were to be cleared out of Reich territory at that time - by forced deportation - and sent to places like the ones you listed and I added. At the same time, well, actually beginning in June 1941, the police units (EGs, police battalions, HSSPFs, etc) and some military units (Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS) began to kill Jews in occupied territory during the Barbarossa campaign and invasion of the USSR. The police units were under Himmler's authority, with the EGs directly reporting to Heydrich; Himmler arranged with military leaders cooperation in the so-called pacification and cleansing operations, and military leaders like Manstein and Richenau instructed their officers to understand and to assist. We know of direct orders by Heydrich for the murder of Jews in state or party positions; we know of Himmler visiting killing sites and the operations expanding thereafter; we know of a great deal of local initiative, by police commanders on the ground, interpreting and applying general orders and testing the limits of what could be done with the Jews - all as part of a development of policy during 1941.

The killings escalated to embrace entire Jewish communities, rather than largely adult males as they did at the outset, by August 1941. By fall entire areas were being cleansed and declared Judenrein. Just last evening I happened to read a brief, pertinent description of this process of escalation and expansion, in an article on the Holocaust in Latvia:
In fact the point of no return might well have been Friedrich Jeckeln's unexpected "success" at Babi Yar at the end of September, which seemed to show that even in cities like Kiev massacring almost the entire Jewish population was possible and much easier than all the "experts" had believed. A short time later, Jeckeln was transferred to Riga and received the order to proceed there in the same way. . . . The result was Jeckeln's Bloody Sunday in Riga and the deportation of thousands of Reichsjuden]/i] . . . to Kovno, Riga, and Minsk, where most of them were killed immediately on their arrival.

(Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm, "'Inventing' the Holocaust for Latvia," in Z. Gitelman, ed., Bitter Legacy: Confronting the Holocaust in the USSR, page 111; I think that the history is a bit more nuanced than Wilhelm states it.)

I mentioned the Baltics as a leading example of the process described by Wilhelm for two reasons. First, the genocide went further there, faster, than elsewhere in occupied USSR - out in advance of formal policy decisions for what we now call the final solution. Second, of course, Kovno and Riga are located in the Baltics - and were two of the places to which central European Jews were deported, so what we happening in the region, although an independent process to the deportations, as I've said, still relevant, especially in that some of the transports got caught up in the local extermination actions (e.g., in November at the Ninth Fort in Kaunas, Rumbula outside Riga).

Another bit I just happened to read last night describes the escalation in the Baltics using different details to those chosen by Wilhelm, in this case involving Lithuania:
In the first half of August 1941 the scale of [murder] operations increased. From August 1 to 14, Hamann's unit conducted ten Aktionen which claimed 4,788 victims. . . . In the course of two days, August 15 and 16, 3,200 Jews - men, women, children - were murdered at the temporary concentration camp which had been established near the northern Lithuanian town of Rokiskis. It was the first time that children were included among the victims of organized slaughter. This marked the shift to the inauguration of the program to completely destroy the Jews of Lithuania.

(Michael MacQueen, "Nazi Policy toward the Jews in the Reichskommissariat Ostland: June-December 1941: From White Terror to Holocaust in Lithuania," in Gitelman, pages 99-100)

Lithuania, of course, is a place where deported central European Jews were murdered too, at the Ninth Fort in Kovno as described above.

Both authors describe regional killing operations, the role of the forces under command of Himmler and Heydrich, a process of escalation, and, in fact, as I argued in the links I gave you (Wannsee and Lodz) a feedback loop in which what was thought possible and doable expanded prior to the decision for a European-wide extermination. To drive home the point you miss in thinking deportations of German Jews to occupied eastern areas is inconsistent with local/regional killing actions in the occupied USSR, everything I described in the two statements you quote deals with 1941, before the European-wide extermination action was decided, and during fall 1941, when central European Jews were deported, the central European Jews, from a policy point of view, were not yet included in the extermination actions then taking place, mostly carried out by Himmler-Heydrich's forces, in the occupied east.

Which background should help you understand the importance of my question, which you are still dodging, what happened to the Jews from central Europe when they were deported in 1941-1942 and after they reached various deportation sites.
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