Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Discussions
User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:48 am

Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
To places - how many times must we post this? - like Majdanek, Poniatowa, Budzyn - having nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's resettlement thesis.

Exercise: look up Aktion Erntefest or Operation Harvest Festival along with Majdanek or Poniatowa.

Small numbers, into the KL system or other camps, many to be worked to death or shot in fall 1943 - some as potential exchange hostages.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:51 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why hasn't this distinction ever been made before?

It has. Here is the map.
Treblinka Rail map.jpg
Here's a photo of Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master, who took handed the train movement logs to Justice Lukaszkiewicz, at Treblinka Rail station.
Treblinka Railway Station.jpg
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And if there was an actual train station at Treblinka, where was the fake train station at Treblinka?
The fake railway station was on the southwest border of the extermination camp adjacent to the "Living camp". You already know this as I have posted Caroline Colls' map for you before. You are pretending to forget. This is the same map that David said "didn't show the Ukrainian Farmhouse". You must have the same disease as David.
Colls Map 2014.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
To places - how many times must we post this? - like Majdanek, Poniatowa, Budzyn - having nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's resettlement thesis.

You mean like Faurisson's, which I directly quote? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


One thing's for sure - tens of thousands transferred through Treblinka has absolutely NOTHING to do with your pure extermination theory.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:05 am

Andrew E Mathis wrote:So here's a personal anecdote that I hope will illustrate a point.

Some of you know I used to live in New York, some of those some of you know that when I did, I lived part of that time in Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn, but I worked in North Jersey, so I had to take the subway every day to the World Trade Center (this was before 9/11). At 9/11, I would transfer to the PATH (Port Authority Trans-Hudson) train, which would take me to Jersey City, where I worked. So every day, I was in the World Trade Center, as were literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of commuters who didn't work in those buildings.

Nevertheless, it would be wrong to call the World Trade Center a transfer station and nothing else, right?

That's just a total non-sequitor.

A better WTC analogy is that there were false rumors / conspiracy theory at the beginning that no Jews were in the towers, however people researched that false rumor and looked at the list of people who were missing / died and found that there were many that in fact were Jewish.

In a similar way, the Holohoax museum's Senior Historian and their gas chamber conspiracy lie falsely claims that not even 1 Jew was sent to Majdanek from Treblinka yet we can look through archives and trace and find at present count almost 25,000 sent from Treblinka to Majdanek and more coming in every day.

Some of these rumors about no Jews in the towers persist today although researchers already found the evidence to disprove it.
"there is no known instance of a person selected out of Treblinka upon arrival and sent to Majdanek as a forced laborer"
Dr. Peter Black

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:19 am

Did anyone see where Hunt replied to this from Nick Terry (I'm blind, so I can't find his response):
nickterry wrote:Does GCH have...

1. a transitee who was deported from the Warsaw ghetto in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
2. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Radom in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
3. a transitee who was deported from ghettos in Distrikt Warschau other than Warsaw in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
4. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Lublin in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
5. a transitee from Theresienstadt via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up
6. a transitee from Bulgaria (Thrace/Macedonia) via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up
All I could find was this hint of a promise to sidestep the request:
Like I said I can continue to fill in the outbound train records and anything you ask if given access to the by your own allegations, incompetent Senior Historian of the US Holocaust Museum's ("cannot have exceeded 200's) resources.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:32 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Did anyone see where Hunt replied to this from Nick Terry (I'm blind, so I can't find his response):
nickterry wrote:Does GCH have...

1. a transitee who was deported from the Warsaw ghetto in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
2. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Radom in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
3. a transitee who was deported from ghettos in Distrikt Warschau other than Warsaw in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
4. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Lublin in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
5. a transitee from Theresienstadt via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up
6. a transitee from Bulgaria (Thrace/Macedonia) via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up
All I could find was this hint of a promise to sidestep the request:
Like I said I can continue to fill in the outbound train records and anything you ask if given access to the by your own allegations, incompetent Senior Historian of the US Holocaust Museum's ("cannot have exceeded 200's) resources.

Don't worry, I can say without a doubt that in Volume 2 of my project I will share with the world proof of well over 10,000 more Jews, from one of those asked on the list very soon - transited to the East - not saying more than that right now.

So get yourself on record right now and say "No Jews were transited East from Treblinka. It was all a deception." Thanks.

The ultimate "sidestep" is the banning from Stanford archives, the ADL ultra-militant-Zionist whining banning this important hoax destroying, US Holocaust Museum Senior Historian demolishing video from Youtube, the associated persecution, imprisonment, and laws against investigation.

While you're talking about sidestepping, where is Terry's estimate of the number transited through Treblinka?

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:39 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:Yea I can say without a doubt that in Volume 2 of my project I will share with the world proof of well over 10,000 more Jews, from one of those asked on the list very soon - transited to the East - not saying more than that right now.

The ultimate "sidestep" is . . .
ducking Nick Terry's questions, after miscalculating the number of Jews discussed in your video.

It is not lost on us that you haven't proven a single Jew
transited to the East
through Treblinka; rather, as has been said over and over, you've merely pulled together existing material, including Shoah Foundation interviews, on shuffling of a small number of Jews through Treblinka into the KL system and other camps.

What's the matter, Nick asked a simple question -
gaschamberhoax wrote:If you're still processing it, as you claim you are . . . That means you already have an estimate in your head, so give a ROUGH ESTIMATE, we don't need an exact figure.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:43 am

So get yourself on record right now and say "No Jews were transited East from Treblinka. It was all a deception." Thanks.
You just ducked that. And speaking of quacks,

Terry hasn't appeared on this forum in days and you're saying I'm sidestepping him?

He has been asked to give an estimate of the number of Jews transited through Treblinka.


I'll give the proof in my next video.

This will rocket me to approximately 40,000 Jews proven transited through Treblinka so I hope by then the Senior Historian of the US Holocaust Museum will realize how unqualified he is and give me unrestricted access to all the information available to him that's restricted from me so I can find proof of tens of thousands more through the camp system he claims less than 200 were transited through.

But he's not unqualified, he's a Holocaust promoter - a Jewish supremacist pure extermination gas chamber promoter.
Last edited by gaschamberhoax on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:49 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:Terry hasn't appeared on this forum in days and you're saying I'm sidestepping him?
Nick Terry doesn't have to be posting on the forum every day in order for readers here to be interested in a response to the issues he's raised.

Sidestepping noted.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:50 am

It's not sidestepping I will share what I have soon. The information is being vetted as we speak.

It's funny you don't hold him to the same standards you held me when you claimed I ran away, when I preferred CODOH to the unmoderated joke here, etc.

If we were at CODOH there would be no sidestepping.

You sidestepped two separate things - here's one -
So get yourself on record right now and say "No Jews were transited East from Treblinka. It was all a deception." Thanks.
Last edited by gaschamberhoax on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:51 am

Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:59 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:It's not sidestepping I will share what I have soon. The information is being vetted as we speak.
I take that is your way of apologizing for {!#%@} pestering of me. LOL
gaschamberhoax wrote:If we were at CODOH there would be no sidestepping.
There'd be censorship.
gaschamberhoax wrote:You sidestepped two separate things - here's one -
So get yourself on record right now and say "No Jews were transited East from Treblinka. It was all a deception." Thanks.
You answer what I asked you first. We haven't finished this bit of business from days ago. Your attempts to change the subject and answer questions with questions are blatant.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Nessie » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:08 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:.........

There has never been a controversy over which Treblinka we're talking about before.
That is all the more reason to go back and check mistakes have not been made.
If a Revisionist had said that there was evidence of the labor camp at Treblinka serving as a transit camp, it would have been controversial. If a Revisionist said that Treblinka was a transit camp, no Believer would have accused him of confusing the Treblinka train station where everybody knows Jews transited through and Treblinka the death camp where all Jews were murdered. In fact there's never been much talk of the train station at Treblinka being more than a facade to trick the Jews into believing they were in a transit camp.

Now you're saying that it's not controversial to claim that the train station might've served as a transit point? Why hasn't this distinction ever been made before? And if there was an actual train station at Treblinka, where was the fake train station at Treblinka?
The village of Treblinka had its railway station through which trains going from Malkinia to Siedice passed. There was a branch which lead to the camps.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic ... ecki04.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... ure2.4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://holocaust.umd.umich.edu/trip/treblinkamap.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So trains heading from the north could end up going via Treblinka as on that part of the railway system.
The story is that we have substantial evidence that hundreds of thousands of Jews were deported to Treblinka and never seen again. We've been told that there is substantial documentation of Jews arriving at Treblinka but nothing that shows where they went afterwards. No distinction has been made. If we're going to say that all the evidence Hunt has uncovered of Jews actually leaving Treblinka isn't important because we don't know which Treblinka the Jewish survivors are talking about, then all the evidence of Jews arriving at Treblinka must similarly be rejected because we don't know which Treblinka they were sent to in the first place. Which Treblinka is referred to in the Hoefle telegram?
The Hoefle Telegram specifically refers to Aktion Reinhard camps, so the "T" refers to TII. Then we need to take into account the huge discrepancy between numbers arriving and leaving, the evidence of the station master at the village station, the way TII was raised to the ground and as we know by recent excavations, buried under a lot of sand, signs of human remains, other witnesses to events there etc.
I'm sorry but Treblinka is Treblinka is Treblinka.
I am sorry, but there has to be a distinction between the village station, TI and TII to show that there has not be a mixing up of information.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Nessie » Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:24 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Treblinka village railway station is on the main line between Malkinia and Seidlce. Trains going from Bialystok in the north to Lublin in the south can go via Treblinka on that line. You can see on this map there is also a route via Czeremcho(?). So the via is a common term to show its route.

http://uzar.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/1electrify.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The station at TII was on a branch line off the main route. Trains going via Treblinka may not have stopped at all and just kept going on the main line to Lublin and Majdanek. So on the 19th August two trains leave Bialystok and one ends up at TII and one at Majdanek. We know that because those Jews were part of AR.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:45 pm

Nessie wrote:The station at TII was on a branch line off the main route. Trains going via Treblinka may not have stopped at all and just kept going on the main line to Lublin and Majdanek. So on the 19th August two trains leave Bialystok and one ends up at TII and one at Majdanek. We know that because those Jews were part of AR.
The one you say "ends up" at T2 does not end up there at all, but continues. Stop with the "one way ticket to the gas chambers" phony narrative.
See the testimony of Irene Shapiro for proof.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:59 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p395540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Just a minor addition / correction (for context and some in red for convenience) here... just for the record:
The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Marty Wintonbury
Poster
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:41 am

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Marty Wintonbury » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:10 pm

Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
Well of course they remained in German custody, it was a GERMAN resettlement program.

This is another miscomprehension and strawman. Everyone knows that Goebbels said that the Jews would be resettled after the war, but this was still DURING the war. The thing about transit camps is that they are merely stopover places on the way to someplace else. As Eric has been the first to notice in his radical research, trains didn't just go to transit camps like Majdanek directly from Bialystok. Jews were sent first to Treblinka which is right next door to Bialystok, and then, even though Treblinka is a little out of the way and not as the crow flies from Bialystok to Majdanek, Treblinka was a traditional transit stop, even if off the beaten track.

Eric made it clear, and not one of you true believing Holo-fanatics has responded, that trains didn't have to stop at Treblinka on a Bialystok to Majdanek run. But this was no express run, as it would have been had people been sent to be gassed. There was something critical about Treblinka in the German transit camp system, so that people had to make a stop there. If it was a death camp, why would trains continue on to Majdanek?

Of course, we know that Majdanek was also a transit camp, but transit camps, unlike death camps, can be like stepping stones so that people hopped from one to the other while waiting for a long term resettlement program to begin. It is not terribly different than programs in the United States, in which families are supported by government programs in decaying hotels while waiting almost forever for the Department of Social Services to find a long term Section 8 housing opening. It may seem like a stretch for some of you who are religiously invested in Nazi extermination myths, but think of Treblinka as a condemned Motel 6, where welfare families stay while waiting for better accomodations.

Incidently, all the alleged "death camps" for Reinhard were lined up in a row along the Bug River, like tenements disintegrting on a broken street in some wretched slum. This is where Eric has noted that people bounced from place to place, not to be exterminated, but to be given some minimal accomodation like people anywhere who are on the dole and living by government handouts.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Nessie » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:33 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:
Nessie wrote:The station at TII was on a branch line off the main route. Trains going via Treblinka may not have stopped at all and just kept going on the main line to Lublin and Majdanek. So on the 19th August two trains leave Bialystok and one ends up at TII and one at Majdanek. We know that because those Jews were part of AR.
The one you say "ends up" at T2 does not end up there at all, but continues. Stop with the "one way ticket to the gas chambers" phony narrative.
See the testimony of Irene Shapiro for proof.
"On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka."

Where did those Jews get "re-settled" after they arrived at TII and Lublin (Majdanek)?
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:38 pm

The grim railway cars carry me there, to that place. They transport from all directions: from east and west, from north and south. ~The Last Jew of Treblinka: A Memoir By Chil Rajchman

RAJCHMAN, REJCHMAN / REICHMANN, Anna
Born in Lodz. From 1941 she was together with her brother Yechiel Rajchman in the ghetto of Ostrow Lubelski. In October 1942 she was deported together with her brother to Treblinka.
Yechiel told about her: "On the train to Treblinka, my sister begged me to give her some food because we had very little food with us. They cheated us. We were told that they are taking us to Russia for work, and it will take many days until we will reach our destination. I did not give my sister Anna. She accepted my reasoning and was willing to suffer and hold off her thirst and craving for food. "Alright, I will do without the food as long as we will come to a place and survive." She was so weak upon arrival that they dispatched her to the gas chambers as soon as we arrived."
Source: USHMM, Interview with Chiel Rajchman, 7 December, 1988
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/rol ... rance.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(my bold)
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Nessie » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:08 pm

Marty Wintonbury wrote:
Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
Well of course they remained in German custody, it was a GERMAN resettlement program.

This is another miscomprehension and strawman. Everyone knows that Goebbels said that the Jews would be resettled after the war, but this was still DURING the war. The thing about transit camps is that they are merely stopover places on the way to someplace else. As Eric has been the first to notice in his radical research, trains didn't just go to transit camps like Majdanek directly from Bialystok. Jews were sent first to Treblinka which is right next door to Bialystok, and then, even though Treblinka is a little out of the way and not as the crow flies from Bialystok to Majdanek, Treblinka was a traditional transit stop, even if off the beaten track.
It is 125km (a 1 1/4 hour drive from Bialystok to Treblinka on google maps). Treblinka was on one of two rail routes to Lublin, so it was perfectly reasonable to go via that route as opposed to the other.
Eric made it clear, and not one of you true believing Holo-fanatics has responded, that trains didn't have to stop at Treblinka on a Bialystok to Majdanek run.
I have already pointed out that going via does not necessarily mean stopping at.
But this was no express run, as it would have been had people been sent to be gassed. There was something critical about Treblinka in the German transit camp system, so that people had to make a stop there. If it was a death camp, why would trains continue on to Majdanek?
Maybe they just went via Treblinka station. Maybe they dropped off the Jews at TII and TI and the empty carriages went onwards to Lublin.
Of course, we know that Majdanek was also a transit camp, but transit camps, unlike death camps, can be like stepping stones so that people hopped from one to the other while waiting for a long term resettlement program to begin. It is not terribly different than programs in the United States, in which families are supported by government programs in decaying hotels while waiting almost forever for the Department of Social Services to find a long term Section 8 housing opening. It may seem like a stretch for some of you who are religiously invested in Nazi extermination myths, but think of Treblinka as a condemned Motel 6, where welfare families stay while waiting for better accomodations.

Incidently, all the alleged "death camps" for Reinhard were lined up in a row along the Bug River, like tenements disintegrting on a broken street in some wretched slum. This is where Eric has noted that people bounced from place to place, not to be exterminated, but to be given some minimal accomodation like people anywhere who are on the dole and living by government handouts.
So the Nazis spent time and money shuffling Jews all round Poland from transit camp to transit camp. Why? Where there any other purely transit camps like TII supposedly was?
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:38 pm

They probably can't find them since it makes so much sense to hide them away in the woods.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Mary Q Contrary
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1180
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:30 am

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Why hasn't this distinction ever been made before?

It has. Here is the map.
Treblinka Rail map.jpg
That's a map. I'm talking about the distinction being made in our discussions. Besides, where's the work camp on that map?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Here's a photo of Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master, who took handed the train movement logs to Justice Lukaszkiewicz, at Treblinka Rail station.
Treblinka Railway Station.jpg
That would be the same Zabecki who notes trains transiting through Treblinka?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And if there was an actual train station at Treblinka, where was the fake train station at Treblinka?
The fake railway station was on the southwest border of the extermination camp adjacent to the "Living camp". You already know this as I have posted Caroline Colls' map for you before. You are pretending to forget. This is the same map that David said "didn't show the Ukrainian Farmhouse". You must have the same disease as David.
Colls Map 2014.JPG
That map doesn't show anything that we're talking about. To summarize: you believe the Jews on the train passed through the real station at Treblinka and then came to a fake train station also called Treblinka. Didn't the Jews notice there were two train stations named Treblinka?
Thanks from:
Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed, Satan, Tinky Winky

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:57 pm

If Hunt “finds” his “next” 15,000 Jews transited through Treblinka, it will be by the same shoddy and misleading crap he pulled to expand fewer than 3,000 Jews transferred to KLs and other camps into 10,000 Jews transited to the mythical settlements of the East.

Already it’s been shown that Hunt’s own back-up data support a number of transferred Jews less than 3 times lower than his claim. His double counting and overestimating - and wishful thinking - have been pointed out.

Let’s turn now to his incompetent handling of the supporting evidence he told us would prove the 10,000 claim correct – the evidence he based his video on and which he himself provided to support the 10,000 estimate.

Theresienstadt – Hunt Counts as “Transited” Jews Those Who Were Part of an Exchange, Not Resettlement, Plan; Those Who Were Murdered in Auschwitz; and Those About Whom in Hunt’s Mind There Is ???Uncertainty???: Hunt included in his estimate a notorious transport of 1,260 children from Bialystok as “resettlers.”

1) Nick Terry has already schooled Hunt in the purpose of the transport, which was anything but resettlement:
4. Then we have the Bialystok-Theresienstadt Kindertransport. Not sure if Eric Rhymes With knows this, but the transport was then deported from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz en bloc and gassed there. No selection, any connection with Treblinka was purely a routing issue, the whole point was to hold back some Polish Jewish children as hostages/for exchange. There are two journal articles on this transport (Klibanski 1995 and Cytron 2002) and it's discussed elsewhere, too.
Under no line of thinking can children seized to be utilized as hostages (in hopes of their being exchanged for German captives of the Allies) “prove” that Jews were being transited and resettled. Hostages do not resettlers make.

2) What actually happened to these children was monstrous.

To begin with, the children had probably most likely about gassing, as rumors about Treblinka had reached and circulated in the Bialystok ghetto. Here is Klibanski’s explanation of their situation:
The inmates of Theresienstadt could not understand this fear, but in the Bialystok ghetto the children had already heard of the shower-like gas chambers in which the Germans killed Jews. Rumors of these began appearing in the Bialystok ghetto at the beginning of 1943, spread by escapees from Treblinka. The testimony of one of them, Abraham Broide, was spread in the ghetto by Mordechai Tenenbaum and can be found in his Underground Archives.
http://www.zabludow.com/bronkaKlibanski.html

Hunt dates the transport of these children from Bialystok to 24 August. Sara Bender, in The Jews of Bialystok, page 265, describes the deportation:
Train schedules, telegrams sent to the train stations, and orders placed by the Reich Railway Authority, confirm that the deportation of Bialystok Jews began on August 17, 1943, and ended a week later, on August 23. During that week, more than 25,000 Jews were deported in fourteen transports.
Bender gives train nos. as "PJ 200, 201, etc." Some trains went to Malkinia and then to Lublin. Others to Treblinka (according to Zabecki, trains 201, 203, 204). Still other trains went to Auschwitz, where Jews underwent another selection.
Documents issued by the Reich Railway Authority state that a transport of 1,260 children left Bialystok on August 24 for Theresienstadt. . . . During the Nazi trials in Germany in the 1960s, it was revealed that the children left Bialystok on August 21 or 22 (not August 24 as stated in the Reich Railway Authority documents), in an ordinary passenger train, arriving in Theresienstadt on August 24.
(Bender, page 271)

Bender continues her account by telling how (page 272)
In Theresienstadt the children were placed in special barracks to prevent contact with the ghetto residents. The Germans feared that the children might disclose information about Treblinka and other death camps, of which the Theresienstadt population was yet unaware.
Eventually, according to Bender, the children would be murdered at Auschwitz:
Some six weeks later, a transport from Theresienstadt arrived in Auschwitz carrying 1,260 Bialystok children and Czech doctors and nurses. The Auschwitz camp log for October 7, 1943, states: "1,260 Jewish children and 53 Czech chaperones arrived from Theresienstadt in a transport arranged by the Reich Main Security Office, They were killed in gas chambers on the day of their arrival [in the camp].
(Bender, page 272)

The fate of the children was determined, not by a resettlement policy or a transit action, but by their being made part of a hostage-exchange plan that Himmler abandoned during this time, according to Wisliceny a the Eichmann trial; Bender believes that the plan was abandoned because the Brits wouldn't countenance it (page 273).

Hunt evinces not a scintilla of knowledge of this situation. His abject reply to Nick Terry was
I "know" of this but do not accept the gassing claim.
Really?

3) On Hunt’s Word-doc submitted as “proof,” for this transport, he’s noted “???proof”??? in place of “Name” of his source for the estimate. Hunt has “?Bialystok?” for “Transferred From.” He includes two weblinks, one to CODOH, where he feels safe, and another to a memorial site. Despite his “???” Hunt counted 1,200 (not 1,260) transferred for this entry.

And on what ground does Hunt “not accept the gassing claim”? That it doesn’t fit his “transit game” delusion?

Subtract 1,200 and send the pupil to make-up sessions on how to think and “honesty.”

Helen Schwartz – Hunt Relies on Unsubstantiated and Dubious Testimony: Helen Schwartz is listed by Hunt as arriving from Bialystok in mid-September and proving 350 Jews from Bialystok ghetto “transited” through Treblinka at this time; Helen Schwartz is listed by Hunt as arriving from Bialystok in mid-September and proving 350 Jews “transited” through Treblinka at this time; Schwartz gives an account of her experience here http://www.theverylongview.com/WATH/personal/both2.htm.

A short summary, dated 1998, has Schwartz deported from Bialystok “Sept. of 1943 [when] the Germans finally liquidated the ghetto.” Schwartz relates how she was taken from Bialystok to Majdanek, then to Treblinka, and then, as part of a selection of 150 of the girls and 200 men, to Blizyn. Schwartz says of her brief stay at Treblinka that she was showered – and, despite her fears of a gassing (“We assumed they were going to gas us and murder us like they murdered other Jews.”), “it was a real shower.” She recalls that she was taken with “some girls to an office to get examined. I was forced to join this group. I remember I was pushed on a table and there were men and women in white coats examining me. Unfortunately, I do not remember anything else. I must have been given something to knock me out. I do not know what they did to me.” She surmises she was injected with something. Eventually, according to Schwartz, she was transferred “at least a hundred and fifty girls in a cattle car, with about two hundred men in another car” to Blizyn, a labor camp in District Radom (http://www.sztetl.org.pl/en/article/bli ... in-blizyn/).

The details narrated by Schwartz make it likely that in the years intervening between her camp experiences and when she gave her testimony she had confused events, mingled in what she’d learned of after her time in the camps, and conflated places. For one thing, the kind of medical experimentation she alludes to was not practiced at Treblinka. There was no mid-September transport to Treblinka from Bialystok (the last being in late August as recorded by Zabecki. If Schwartz traveled from Bialystok in September, she could not have gone to Treblinka, as at the time there were only 100 workers in the camp – not the 350 she describes on her transport alone. Sara Berger (The Jews of Bialystok, pages 274-275) has the final deportation (8 September 1943, 31 cars) from Bialystok going past Malkinia to Lublin, where Jews were selected for Majdanek, Pionatowa, Blizyn, and Trawniki. So another possibility is that it was on one of these transports that Schwartz was taken – none stopping at Treblinka.

Hunt’s inclusion of 350 “transiters” on the basis of this confusing and unsubstantiated testimony is worse than reaching.

Subtract 350 and send the pupil to after-school tutoring on how to read critically.

The general point here is obvious: Hunt wants to inflate his numbers – while lying that the general and specialist literature is ignorant of what happened. Thus, he is grabbing whatever "sounds good" to him and might resemble something like a transiting through Treblinka without checking for reliability, without matching his source to other evidence, and without fitting what people remember into the wider context.

Hunt claims he’s proven 10,000 Jews “transited” through Treblinka; what he’s actually proven is that the specialists are right and that he is not a serious researcher.

Hunt is clueless about the phases and uses of Treblinka – mushing everything together for rhetorical purposes.

Like any institution, Treblinka had a history - it went through phases. The great liquidation actions - in which the Jews of Warsaw ghetto and the surrounding district and District Radom were wiped out - took place in 1942 into early 1943. In 1943 the use of the camp changed somewhat - it was used to kill off large groups of Jews from various places - notably the Grodno-Bialystok region and Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, many of these from Greece, deported through Skopje. By summer 1943 the Germans were cleaning-up the and covering-up - activity underway when the early August revolt occurred. Subsequent to the revolt the camp was in dissolution mode. Hunt mixes all this up - and throws in the idiot's observation, so nicely pointed out by Andrew E Mathis, that even when a institution is focused on a purpose, not all its activities will be the same.
gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? . . . Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable
As to Hunt’s persistent and somewhat silly question why a few trains came to Treblinka during the dissolution the camp after the revolt, he seems ignorant of the situation at the time. There were no transports arriving at all between the time of the revolt at Treblinka (2 August) and the Bialystok transports. In fact, there had been no transports during the summer of 1943 - that slow period marks off the large-scale killing operations from the end life of Treblinka (although even earlier in 1943 the killing had slowed down with the liquidation of the Jews of District Warsaw and District Radom). Also, the camp had been damaged in the rebellion:
At that time the camp had already ceased to be fully operational. Part of it had been destroyed during the uprising a few weeks earlier, and only a few Jewish prisoners were still there to carry out the work connected with the extermination process. Therefore, the annihilation of the transports from Bialystok took more time than before the uprising. Only ten freight cars loaded with Jews could enter the camp simultaneously, as opposed to twenty previously. These difficulties were why the other transports from Bialystok, except for the one with the children, were sent to Majdanek and Auschwitz.
(Arad, page 372)

The Germans who remained were jittery and took measures to prevent more trouble:
Following the burning of the death camp and the escape of most of the prisoners, the lack of workers in the death camp was supplemented by Jews from the labour camp. After a break of several days the death camp began operating once again, but now only 10 wagons were taken onto the ramp at any one time. During the revolt the gas chambers and the ramp had not been destroyed. We had been surprised that until then, during the entire extermination action, the transports had been divided into sections of 20 wagons for unloading purposes. We reasoned that the Germans were probably concerned even then about this mass of several thousand people and they took into account the possibility of Jewish resistance, which might be difficult to suppress in the case of a complete transport. . . . It was not to be unexpected that after the uprising they would anticipate another revolt by the Jews, and as a consequence they decided to take a lesser number of wagons onto the ramp.

The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed.
Zabecki at http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html

Around this time, Globocnik was sent packing to Trieste (in September), taking Stangl along, at which time Kurt Franz replaced Stangl as commandant of the camp:
Kurt Franz, Stangl’s deputy, was appointed commander of Treblinka. He was responsible for dismantling the camp, destroying the gas chambers, and erasing all signs of the extermination camp.
(Arad, page 373)

During August, the Germans attempted to use Treblinka in the liquidation of Bialystok ghetto. I am not aware of detailed documentation for events inside the camp at this time; my sense is that the Germans found that the now-undermanned camp, which had suffered significant damage, was no longer suitable for large-scale extermination actions. The killing process was more protracted, and, with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp. Therefore, some of the Bialystok trains were diverted as the Germans made other plans for disposing of Jews. The negative experience would likely harden into a firm decision over time, so that by the end of August the camp was probably no longer thought of as even a “backup” killing center.

During September the dismantling of the camp was in full swing:
Franz had at his disposal some SS men and a group of Ukrainian guards. The physical work was carried out by about 100 Jewish prisoners who remained there after the uprising. The work was accomplished during September/October 1943.
(Arad, page 373)

In addition, goods in the camp were to be removed.
On November 17, the last transport, carrying equipment from the camp, departed.
(Arad, page 373] There are some records of this activity:
Once the industrial machinery was no longer needed for exhuming bodies and demolition of the camp, it was sent away, having no other purpose to fulfil. In the waybills for the wagons sent from Treblinka at the time of the final 'liquidation' of the camp three excavators are mentioned.
Potyondi at http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... inka.shtml

The better question is why trains wouldn’t have continued to come past and even to Treblinka in late summer and early fall as the Germans learned in real-time that their killing center was no longer up to the continuing liquidation tasks of the Third Reich, even on the limited basis on which the camp had been employed since spring 1943; as trains made their way along the Malkinia-Siedlce line (“The camp was situated in the northeastern part of the General Government, not far from Malkinia, a town with a railroad station on the main Warsaw-Bialystok line and close to the Malkinia-Siedlce line”), and as goods and equipment were removed from the camp by the remaining SS, Ukrainian, and Jewish squads.

An even better question concerns the standards used by Hunt.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:17 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:...To summarize: you believe the Jews on the train passed through the real station at Treblinka and then came to a fake train station also called Treblinka. Didn't the Jews notice there were two train stations named Treblinka?
(Highlight mine.)
The camp of Treblinka occupied a clearing 1 mile square, surrounded by woods and situation about a mile and a half from the railway station of Treblinka, on the line Malkinia-Siedlece. Beginning in May 1942 every day, with only brief interruptions, trains bringing Jews to Treblinka arrived from all over Poland, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Bulgaria, and Greece. On the average, 3 to 4 trains of 60 cars arrived every day; each car containing 80 to 150 people. The trains traveled along a siding to the entrance gate, where the train escort got off and a camp escort received the deportees. Soldiers from outside were forbidden to cross the camp grounds. Precautions to insure secrecy went so far that an electric siren was placed on the main observation tower, to signal any German plane that approached to change its course. No plane ever flew over the camp.

The whole station was camouflaged in the must cunning fashion. Thus, the large barracks adjoining the platform, which served as the main storehouse for the stolen clothes, was covered with timetables of trains that allegedly came to Treblinka Station (some months later, when Treblinka had become famous, the name of the station was changed to Ober-Majdan). Then one saw a huge signpost bear the inscription: "To Bialystock and Baranowicze", such signs as "Tickets" and "Stationmaster," and finally an enormous painted arrow with the words: "Change for east-bound trains." There was also a large station clock. Inside these barracks there was nothing but clothes, shoes, and rags, but incoming people had the impression that they were really at a junction, where they would change to another train going still further east.

Near the platform there was a stout fence about 9 feet high with a gate through which the newly arrived were drive in to a huge square. Their disappointment and surprise were overwhelming: instead of a junction, they were in a huge concentration camp...
http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... inka.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:08 pm

edited below
Last edited by gaschamberhoax on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:18 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p395540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Just a minor addition / correction (for context and some in red for convenience) here... just for the record:
The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I replaced that "ANNIHILATE" lie with the truth - transit - unless you think this woman and her family was "annihilated" rather than sent to Lublin, sent to work and to play in the orchestra.


I already told you to look at the testimony of Irene Shaprio who was on that train via Treblinka on the 18th or 19th of August -

Hear this annihilated woman speak :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn503458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Her Father went to Majdanek, along with her Uncle, 22 year old boyfriend, and cousin.
After Lublin she and her mother went to Blizyn.

Her father played in the Majdanek orchestra.
Did you see your father? Yes, he’s in the orchestra!


NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WERE GASSED!

What a terrible mistake you've made! You think someone who made horrific false rape or murder accusations would admit their wrongdoing at some point!


Look at what the power of ONE WORD is - they came to the conclusion that they were "annihilated" when there is clearly no proof of that!

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:32 pm

Marty Wintonbury wrote:
Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
Well of course they remained in German custody, it was a GERMAN resettlement program.
This is all they have now - "ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one."

We'll have proof of over 40,000 transited through Treblinka when my next video is released, and they'll claim those transited, including to the East, through the German's own system don't count because they're not "resettlers!"

Of course we're supposed to believe the Jews, who were rounded up in the first place and transited away hundreds of miles for aiding the murder and murdering German soldiers are what - supposed to go completely free somewhere else to do it again? Of course they remained in German custody! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've got many for "resettlement in the east" coming up soon.

So I want Terry, Mathis, and whatever other exterminationist TRULY believes I can't find anyone transited through Treblinka to the East to take the following pledge, print it out and sign and date it. We already know the US Holocaust Museum and Yad Vashem claim it's not possible to find any Jews transited, "East" or not, and they've been proven tremendously wrong using archives they can access in their own museums. We can agree on the judge in the following posts.

When proof of one of the following is shown to me, and verified by a fair judge of evidence, agreed upon by myself and Mr. Hunt, I promise to concede that the claim that no Jews were transited East through Treblinka, but "gassed" upon arrival is a horrific libel against the German people, wartime atrocity propaganda run amuck. I concede that Treblinka operated primarily as a transit camp, transited Jews both to the Lublin District, Auschwitz, and to the East and did not have homicidal gas chambers. I apologize to the Revisionists who have been horribly persecuted in order to bring forward this historical truth and will do everything within my power to atone for my past claims of Germans "gassing" almost a million men women and children at Treblinka and will spread the word that Treblinka was a transit camp, not an extermination camp.

Print it out, sign and date it. Shermer can judge but I've heard he doesn't reply to anything at all.

nickterry wrote:
Does GCH have...

1. a transitee who was deported from the Warsaw ghetto in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
2. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Radom in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
3. a transitee who was deported from ghettos in Distrikt Warschau other than Warsaw in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
4. a transitee who was deported from Distrikt Lublin in 1942 to Treblinka, if so where did they end up.
5. a transitee from Theresienstadt via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up
6. a transitee from Bulgaria (Thrace/Macedonia) via Treblinka to anywhere, if so where did they end up

YES I DO.
Last edited by gaschamberhoax on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:40 pm

Nessie wrote:So the Nazis spent time and money shuffling Jews all round Poland from transit camp to transit camp. Why? Where there any other purely transit camps like TII supposedly was?

Maybe you should investigate yourself before jumping to the horrific conclusion you do because of your ignorance. It's funny you like to put the word purely in our mouths but we don't claim it was purely a transit camp there were other uses such as the attached labor camp.

Your silly speculation that it was impossible is pointless because you can't deny something we KNOW happened
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by gaschamberhoax on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:46 pm

Marty Wintonbury wrote:
Andrew E Mathis wrote:And ZERO going for "resettlement in the east." ALL of them remained in German custody. Every last one.
Well of course they remained in German custody, it was a GERMAN resettlement program.

This is another miscomprehension and strawman. Everyone knows that Goebbels said that the Jews would be resettled after the war, but this was still DURING the war. The thing about transit camps is that they are merely stopover places on the way to someplace else. As Eric has been the first to notice in his radical research, trains didn't just go to transit camps like Majdanek directly from Bialystok. Jews were sent first to Treblinka which is right next door to Bialystok, and then, even though Treblinka is a little out of the way and not as the crow flies from Bialystok to Majdanek, Treblinka was a traditional transit stop, even if off the beaten track.

Eric made it clear, and not one of you true believing Holo-fanatics has responded, that trains didn't have to stop at Treblinka on a Bialystok to Majdanek run. But this was no express run, as it would have been had people been sent to be gassed. There was something critical about Treblinka in the German transit camp system, so that people had to make a stop there. If it was a death camp, why would trains continue on to Majdanek?

Of course, we know that Majdanek was also a transit camp, but transit camps, unlike death camps, can be like stepping stones so that people hopped from one to the other while waiting for a long term resettlement program to begin. It is not terribly different than programs in the United States, in which families are supported by government programs in decaying hotels while waiting almost forever for the Department of Social Services to find a long term Section 8 housing opening. It may seem like a stretch for some of you who are religiously invested in Nazi extermination myths, but think of Treblinka as a condemned Motel 6, where welfare families stay while waiting for better accomodations.

Incidently, all the alleged "death camps" for Reinhard were lined up in a row along the Bug River, like tenements disintegrting on a broken street in some wretched slum. This is where Eric has noted that people bounced from place to place, not to be exterminated, but to be given some minimal accomodation like people anywhere who are on the dole and living by government handouts.
Actually now that you mention it there was a transit camp I saw in that video about American concentration camps for the Japanese. Let me dig that up.

I don't know what you're saying about tenements, etc., the Bug river was a natural spot for a cordon sanitaire, let me find the article which proves it.

Someone with more knowledge about trains can talk about if the trains at Treblinka were refueled or not, or we're to believe they were sent from Warsaw to Treblinka to Majdanek with no refueling? Or the exterminationist story, Warsaw to Treblinka and back with no refueling?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:55 pm

gaschamberhoax wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p395540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Just a minor addition / correction (for context and some in red for convenience) here... just for the record:
The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I replaced that "ANNIHILATE" lie with the truth - transit - unless you think this woman and her family was "annihilated" rather than sent to Lublin, sent to work and to play in the orchestra.


I already told you to look at the testimony of Irene Shaprio who was on that train via Treblinka on the 18th or 19th of August -

Hear this annihilated woman speak :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn503458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Her Father went to Majdanek, along with her Uncle, 22 year old boyfriend, and cousin.
After Lublin she and her mother went to Blizyn.

Her father played in the Majdanek orchestra.
Did you see your father? Yes, he’s in the orchestra!


NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WERE GASSED!

What a terrible mistake you've made! You think someone who made horrific false rape or murder accusations would admit their wrongdoing at some point!


Look at what the power of ONE WORD is - they came to the conclusion that they were "annihilated" when there is clearly no proof of that!
What are you going on about? Here's an excerpt from the transcript. Yes, transit of those trains. Seems she never set foot into Treblinka village, Treblinka I or Treblinka II?

http://collections.ushmm.org/search/cat ... 9207_12140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
¬¬Interview with Irene Shapiro
March 27, 1992
Ipsmont, New York

...

Q: Where were you taken?

A: We were taken by train to Treblinka, which was not even a retaining camp, just pure and simple extermination. You were driven in, exterminated. So we passed the field of ashes and human bones, and they were totally unabashed. We saw it. And it was at that point, and there were many train, that we started to sing all kind of songs, among them, “The International” and they were shooting onto the train because there were some left-wing and some Zionists -- and we were singing all kinds of songs and that was the song of our revolt, and they shot me between my thighs and I was scraped by the bullet.

Q: You were grazed by the bullet which was shot through -- you were in a cattle car --

A: Yes, yes, and so we decided to jump. We were nearing the point before we went to that Treblinka. We knew where we were going. We -- there were some people -- at that point I realized there were more people in the underground, even the other factions, you know, whoever they were, and they were, uh -- I cut my skirt -- there were no slacks worn in those days, and we were going to jump through the window and we saw people who were jump --

Q: Through the window in the cattle car?

A: Yes, you could. You would push -- you could.

Q: No window, but the opening?

A: The opening. The opening. That was big enough to be pushed through and we saw -- I mean --to let you know that you could -- see, we’ve seen bodies. We’ve seen. I’ll never forget the jazz musician whose song I carry in my heart and nobody to write it down, and he was shot in front of me. He jumped.

Q: As he was jumping, he was shot?

A: Yes, and then he didn’t move, and I never heard of him. Never. So he was killed. And we still decided we will take a chance. But there was not -- we didn’t have anything with us. We didn’t have weapons, we didn’t have anything. So we asked people, “Please give us your money.”

Q: So you got out of the car successfully?

A: No, no. We were standing in the car and we’re asking people who were sitting there praying to God, “Never mind your prayers. We are your hope. If we survive, that nation will live. We can’t; we need your money.”

Q: Oh, okay, cause I --

A: We knew. Somebody said, “Oh, this one, this is rich so-and-so.” Their answer was, “We need that money to buy ourselves out.’ And besides –

Q: This was still in the cattle car?

A: Yes. And then somebody said, “If you dare to come close to that window we’re going to call the Ukrainian, because if you jump, they’re going to shoot through the car.” So, we said the hell with it. At that point (End of Tape 1). I didn’t mind taking a chance.

Q: So we’re outside Treblinka in the rail car?


A: That’s how we crossed to Treblinka after the shooting I already had a sore and the reason which I so well remember the scene because with me were my high school friends whose names I know. I know how they perished. Yes. And I know how they perished. And because my mother fainted.

Q: Your parents were in the same car?

A: Yes. I joined them with that German and I went with them and I managed to pass the selection. Many parents were sent off and the train stopped in Treblinka and the last two wagons or three wagons were detached and these people went directly to the annihilator. But my parents passed their original inspection and were with us young people in the same wagon. My mother fainted and she couldn’t even go down because it was so crowded. This was the first time that I opened my big mouth to my father. Normally had I done this he would have let me have it. I mean physically. I said, “God damn it, would you get off your you-know-what and help your wife. She’s fainted.” And wild-eyed, he looked at me as if he was from a different world, and that’s when I recognized that that’s the end of the big father of mine and the beginning of me, the leader of that family. I’ve done this all along, supported them, got food for them, gave them the money that I earned. I was the undertaking kind of a person but now I knew if there was any decision to be made, it would have to be me because he’s just not there.

Q: This was a different world?

A: This was a different world, and I had to live up to it, so I went to my mother and I said, and I shook her, and I said, “No, you live. You will live. Now you stop it.” She said, “Why did you do it? Why did you wake me up? I could have died.’ I said, “You don’t know yet.” And for some reason at that point when I knew I couldn’t -- we passed the point. Treblinka was much too far from wherever we could go, somebody told us where the point was. There were many more people. I never knew how many --

Q: Who were to escape?

A: Who were to escape -- oh, my boyfriend knew. See, my boyfriend was taken with the first action, the one that was in February, and he jumped the train; that first train in February, and he stayed with farmers and he came back home to me. So he knew the point of -- where you could go to, uh, where there was Jewish underground. There was no point going anywhere especially not where there was a Polish underground. You had to go where we knew we had hiding places. The underground amounted to hiding places. We did a little sabotage, but it was basically survival. Well, at that point, we said, well, let come whatever may, and once it passed Treblinka, we started believing, yes, that we are going to work.

Q: You’re in the cars that were not left there, so the train continued?

A: That’s right. And at that point.


Q: And your family is still together?

A: Yes.

Q: Friends are still with you?

A: Yes. And we were taken to Lublin.[/b] Katzov Lublin. It’s known as (?). And that is the first time that I realized that they annihilate people in the way they said, because I saw cans of Zyklon B gas right in front of me -- a pile. (?).

Q: Were you the only one to see this?

A: No, we all saw it. And we also had children removed from their parents and taken to the place in front of which was the Zyklon B gas,...
(bolding mine)


Zyklon-B... That doesn't sound like Treblinka II, does it? ...I'll continue with another excerpt:
Q: That means you all continued on after you stopped at Treblinka?

A: When we disembarked in Lublin,
that is when I realized that we were so very few. That means that the rest either disappeared with the first action --it was (?) big ghetto or were already separated and had gone on to Treblinka and I know that my neighbors, young people, a boy and a girl, my age, went with their grandparents, in a wheelchair, so obviously I knew what happened. And my father and my uncle came out of -- you never knew what it was -- steam was coming out from both. Sometimes the steam meant that there was steam coming down as well -- hot water coming for a wash-up.

Q: You’re talking about Lublin?

A: Yes.
We were all given -- no, no, we were not all given baths. My par – our men were given a bath. That included my cousin, my uncle, my boyfriend and my father, and they got out. We saw them. And they were brought to Majdanek. Majdanek was behind, it was an adjunct, sort of a part, outlying area of the (?) of the concentration camp. We were walked to that concentration camp without the bath.
Q: Your mother was how old at this time?

A: She was 49, that wasn’t a girl. We ended in a camp, Blitzen, (?). (?). While we waited in Lublin train station, they marched in 350 men. While they were standing waiting also to be joined with us. This was the contingent of a city of 150,000 Jews. One hundred and fifty of us and 350 men. That’s all that eventually survived.

Q: Brezany?

A: That’s when they were walking to the train, I asked him. Somebody that I knew, did you see my father? He said yes, he’s in the orchestra. Oh I said, he must have more soup. I was rejoicing for him. Being something in camp to meant that he’s a little better off. Little did I know what was going to happen. So we worked in that Blitzen, indeed I worked in a knitting factory.

Q: How close was Blitzen to ______?

A: To Auschwitz?

Q: To Lublin.

A: To Lublin. No, I think this was the Blitzen. Was near Radom. Not very far, I would say ---.

Q: Another rail trip?

A: A 150, 200 miles.

Q: So you went by train again?

A: Yes, by train. But it wasn’t a big trip, no. This camp was different. It was not a typical concentration camp. It was a working camp where the families weren’t together, but women who came before us had their clothing on, their things, their belongings. We didn’t, because they took it away. We came from a concentration camp. But they did.

Q: What were you wearing?

A: I had some old rag with something on the back, whatever it was.

Q: What they gave you at Lublin?

A: Yes, after the bath. Yes, we looked real funny. They didn’t shave our heads at that time. That Blitzen was survivable until about Christmas of that year.

Q: December, December ____?

A: Was okay. By okay I meant the soup was pretty dense, there weren’t killings, there weren’t executions. They were intimidating, there were a lot of civilian Germans worked the factories. Then there came the leadership of Lublin, of that camp, Majdanek and took over. Our camp became a concentration camp and things became worse.

Q: So the Majdanek management basically, took over the management Blitzen?

A: But I didn’t know how and why and then we discovered it. Because some wood, burning wood, woodpiles came from Lublin to us. In them a piece of, a chunk of, a log was found was Hebrew inscription. That told us on November 2, for three days, machine-gunning of all Jews, they are no more. So we knew that I had no father, no boyfriend, no uncle and my mother ---. Well, she said if I survive I can find another guy, she says. Interesting, my mother. I couldn’t believe it.

Q: That’s her humor?

A: No, it was a method for surviving. Oh, we’ll manage, you did not despair.

Edits: additions
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Here's a photo of Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master, who took handed the train movement logs to Justice Lukaszkiewicz, at Treblinka Rail station.
Treblinka Railway Station.jpg
Mary Q Contrary wrote:That would be the same Zabecki who notes trains transiting through Treblinka?
Yes Mary, Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master is the same Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master who handed over the Treblinka logs to Justice Lukaszkiewicz because he was Station master at Treblinka. Are you getting it yet?

Matthew Ellard wrote:The fake railway station was on the southwest border of the extermination camp adjacent to the "Living camp". You already know this as I have posted Caroline Colls' map for you before.
Colls Map 2014.JPG
Mary Q Contrary wrote:That map doesn't show anything that we're talking about.
The map shows exactly what we are talking about. It is the fake station where the Jews got off, next to the living camp.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: You believe the Jews on the train passed through the real station at Treblinka and then came to a fake train station also called Treblinka. Didn't the Jews notice there were two train stations named Treblinka?
That is exactly what happened. The trains with Jews were held at the siding at Treblinka Railway Station. They are then sent down the single line railway in groups of 20 cars to get executed in groups that match gas chamber capacity . They get off the cars at Treblinka II. They did not get out off their carriages at Treblinka Railway Station to stretch their legs and look at local signs you complete idiot


Franciszek Zabecki, the Treblinka Station Master
When will they let us leave the wagons altogether?' Through some air gaps terrified people looked out, asking hopefully: 'How far is it to the agricultural estates where we’re going to work?' Twenty wagons were uncoupled from the train, and a shunting engine began to push them along the spur-line into the camp. A short while later it returned empty. This procedure was repeated twice more, until all sixty wagons had been shunted into the camp, and out again. Empty they returned to Warsaw for more 'settlers'."
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 27639
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:15 am

scrmbldggs wrote:What are you going on about? Here's an excerpt from the transcript. Yes, transit of those trains. Seems she never set foot into Treblinka village, Treblinka I or Treblinka II?

http://collections.ushmm.org/search/cat ... 9207_12140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Interview with Irene Shapiro
March 27, 1992
Ipsmont, New York
Irene Shapiro is also listed in the Shoah database. Her biographical detail mentions the following camps for her:
Auschwitz II-Birkenau (Poland : Death Camp)
Blizyn (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Lippstadt (Germany : Concentration Camp)
Majdanek (Poland : Concentration Camp)
In segment 20 of her interview, according to the database notes, Shapiro discusses
deportation awareness
deportation from Bialystok (Poland : Ghetto)
deportation to Majdanek (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Segment 20 is not available through the database online. Shapiro's testimony audiotape is available online, at USHMM, and is same as transcript posted by scrmbldggs. Hunt's Word doc cites the USHMM audiotape and references the notoriously unreliable Mattogno, Kues, and Graf.

The USHMM notes for Schapiro's interview make the same mistake made by Hunt:
Irene Shapiro, born in 1925 in Brezany, Ukraine, describes her life in Gludjan until 1938 when her family moved to Bialystock; Russian propaganda; her strong Zionist beliefs; the Russian occupation in Bialystok, which became part of Soviet Byelorussia; the ghettoization of Bialystok during the second German occupation; her involvement with the Jewish underground; her time in Treblinka, Lublin, Majdanek (where her father was killed), Blitzen, and in May 1944, Auschwitz Birkenau; how she survived in the camps; her liberation; her immigration to the United States in 1946; and her work with American and British forces after the war.
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn509207
But in the audiotape Schapiro talks of cars on her train being detached and sent into Treblinka and is as scrmbldggs quotes it. Perhaps an intern or summer volunteer, working too quickly, heard reference to Treblinka and thus included it in the note.

Hunt attributed 450 Jews "transited" from Treblinka to Shapiro's testimony even though Schapiro says she didn't enter the camp but rode past it along with the others in her car.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:..., Shapiro discusses
deportation awareness
deportation from Bialystok (Poland : Ghetto)
deportation to Majdanek (Poland : Concentration Camp)
IRENE SHAPIRO
Q Why dont you start right -- first tell me your name.
A I am Irene Shapiro born Hess and I. was raised in part of Poland
known as. th.e corridor And that was between east Prussia and Germany
proper. So I. lived in small community of Jews and in 1938 we moved
to the northeastern part of Poland big city of Bialystock.....And then was con
fined i.n ghetto of Bialystock...So stayed in the ghetto until
th.e last day of it which. was in August of 1943...And was put in line with my parents and we
were taken into depot where trains were waiting. We tried to escape
from the trains...it was too late....We were nearing the extermination camp. We. sat down and decided to
start singing. As we were singing our songs the Germans were shooting
at us and I. was grazed by bullet. Fortunately it passed between my
th.ighs and just scarred it bit And we were taken to Lublin. Lublin
had an extermination camp.
http://www.ushmm.org/media/emu/get?irn= ... le=primary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (PDF)
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Nessie » Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:54 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:
Nessie wrote:So the Nazis spent time and money shuffling Jews all round Poland from transit camp to transit camp. Why? Where there any other purely transit camps like TII supposedly was?

Maybe you should investigate yourself before jumping to the horrific conclusion you do because of your ignorance. It's funny you like to put the word purely in our mouths but we don't claim it was purely a transit camp there were other uses such as the attached labor camp.

Your silly speculation that it was impossible is pointless because you can't deny something we KNOW happened
.......
Please explain the purpose of TII.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:51 am

Question:
gaschamberhoax wrote:...my claim, which currently is 50 times PHD Black's claim.

My estimate -
....
Shapiro - 450
...
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p395009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


...since those numbers were posted by Mr Hunt, and in light of the transcript(s) of Ms Shapiro where it was recorded that she said this (bolding mine):
While we waited in Lublin train station, they marched in 350 men. While they were standing waiting also to be joined with us. This was the contingent of a city of 150,000 Jews. One hundred and fifty of us and 350 men. That’s all that eventually survived.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p395666" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


It's close. Is that where he got his numbers from?
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Marty Wintonbury
Poster
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:41 am

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by Marty Wintonbury » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:13 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
gaschamberhoax wrote:Here's another sidestep -

We KNOW tens upon tens of thousands of Jews were transited through Treblinka. That's what YOU are sidestepping - these following transits prove that even without your alleged "extermination" Treblinka was used for transiting tens of thousands of Jews. Even without your "extermination" going on, why did they have to stop there AT ALL? This proves our point, Treblinka served a necessary function even without your alleged "extermination" - it was not a top secret extermination camp hidden in the forests - it was a transit camp on a main rail line.
But the action to TRANSIT the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's your question - why did they have to stop at Treblinka AT ALL?

"they ran outta da gas" is not acceptable

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 21#p395540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Just a minor addition / correction (for context and some in red for convenience) here... just for the record:
The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I replaced that "ANNIHILATE" lie with the truth - transit - unless you think this woman and her family was "annihilated" rather than sent to Lublin, sent to work and to play in the orchestra.


I already told you to look at the testimony of Irene Shaprio who was on that train via Treblinka on the 18th or 19th of August -

Hear this annihilated woman speak :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn503458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Her Father went to Majdanek, along with her Uncle, 22 year old boyfriend, and cousin.
After Lublin she and her mother went to Blizyn.

Her father played in the Majdanek orchestra.
Did you see your father? Yes, he’s in the orchestra!


NONE OF THESE PEOPLE WERE GASSED!

What a terrible mistake you've made! You think someone who made horrific false rape or murder accusations would admit their wrongdoing at some point!


Look at what the power of ONE WORD is - they came to the conclusion that they were "annihilated" when there is clearly no proof of that!
What are you going on about? Here's an excerpt from the transcript. Yes, transit of those trains. Seems she never set foot into Treblinka village, Treblinka I or Treblinka II?

http://collections.ushmm.org/search/cat ... 9207_12140" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
¬¬Interview with Irene Shapiro
March 27, 1992
Ipsmont, New York

...

Q: Where were you taken?

A: We were taken by train to Treblinka, which was not even a retaining camp, just pure and simple extermination. You were driven in, exterminated. So we passed the field of ashes and human bones, and they were totally unabashed. We saw it. And it was at that point, and there were many train, that we started to sing all kind of songs, among them, “The International” and they were shooting onto the train because there were some left-wing and some Zionists -- and we were singing all kinds of songs and that was the song of our revolt, and they shot me between my thighs and I was scraped by the bullet.

Q: You were grazed by the bullet which was shot through -- you were in a cattle car --

A: Yes, yes, and so we decided to jump. We were nearing the point before we went to that Treblinka. We knew where we were going. We -- there were some people -- at that point I realized there were more people in the underground, even the other factions, you know, whoever they were, and they were, uh -- I cut my skirt -- there were no slacks worn in those days, and we were going to jump through the window and we saw people who were jump --

Q: Through the window in the cattle car?

A: Yes, you could. You would push -- you could.

Q: No window, but the opening?

A: The opening. The opening. That was big enough to be pushed through and we saw -- I mean --to let you know that you could -- see, we’ve seen bodies. We’ve seen. I’ll never forget the jazz musician whose song I carry in my heart and nobody to write it down, and he was shot in front of me. He jumped.

Q: As he was jumping, he was shot?

A: Yes, and then he didn’t move, and I never heard of him. Never. So he was killed. And we still decided we will take a chance. But there was not -- we didn’t have anything with us. We didn’t have weapons, we didn’t have anything. So we asked people, “Please give us your money.”

Q: So you got out of the car successfully?

A: No, no. We were standing in the car and we’re asking people who were sitting there praying to God, “Never mind your prayers. We are your hope. If we survive, that nation will live. We can’t; we need your money.”

Q: Oh, okay, cause I --

A: We knew. Somebody said, “Oh, this one, this is rich so-and-so.” Their answer was, “We need that money to buy ourselves out.’ And besides –

Q: This was still in the cattle car?

A: Yes. And then somebody said, “If you dare to come close to that window we’re going to call the Ukrainian, because if you jump, they’re going to shoot through the car.” So, we said the hell with it. At that point (End of Tape 1). I didn’t mind taking a chance.

Q: So we’re outside Treblinka in the rail car?


A: That’s how we crossed to Treblinka after the shooting I already had a sore and the reason which I so well remember the scene because with me were my high school friends whose names I know. I know how they perished. Yes. And I know how they perished. And because my mother fainted.

Q: Your parents were in the same car?

A: Yes. I joined them with that German and I went with them and I managed to pass the selection. Many parents were sent off and the train stopped in Treblinka and the last two wagons or three wagons were detached and these people went directly to the annihilator. But my parents passed their original inspection and were with us young people in the same wagon. My mother fainted and she couldn’t even go down because it was so crowded. This was the first time that I opened my big mouth to my father. Normally had I done this he would have let me have it. I mean physically. I said, “God damn it, would you get off your you-know-what and help your wife. She’s fainted.” And wild-eyed, he looked at me as if he was from a different world, and that’s when I recognized that that’s the end of the big father of mine and the beginning of me, the leader of that family. I’ve done this all along, supported them, got food for them, gave them the money that I earned. I was the undertaking kind of a person but now I knew if there was any decision to be made, it would have to be me because he’s just not there.

Q: This was a different world?

A: This was a different world, and I had to live up to it, so I went to my mother and I said, and I shook her, and I said, “No, you live. You will live. Now you stop it.” She said, “Why did you do it? Why did you wake me up? I could have died.’ I said, “You don’t know yet.” And for some reason at that point when I knew I couldn’t -- we passed the point. Treblinka was much too far from wherever we could go, somebody told us where the point was. There were many more people. I never knew how many --

Q: Who were to escape?

A: Who were to escape -- oh, my boyfriend knew. See, my boyfriend was taken with the first action, the one that was in February, and he jumped the train; that first train in February, and he stayed with farmers and he came back home to me. So he knew the point of -- where you could go to, uh, where there was Jewish underground. There was no point going anywhere especially not where there was a Polish underground. You had to go where we knew we had hiding places. The underground amounted to hiding places. We did a little sabotage, but it was basically survival. Well, at that point, we said, well, let come whatever may, and once it passed Treblinka, we started believing, yes, that we are going to work.

Q: You’re in the cars that were not left there, so the train continued?

A: That’s right. And at that point.


Q: And your family is still together?

A: Yes.

Q: Friends are still with you?

A: Yes. And we were taken to Lublin.[/b] Katzov Lublin. It’s known as (?). And that is the first time that I realized that they annihilate people in the way they said, because I saw cans of Zyklon B gas right in front of me -- a pile. (?).

Q: Were you the only one to see this?

A: No, we all saw it. And we also had children removed from their parents and taken to the place in front of which was the Zyklon B gas,...
(bolding mine)


Zyklon-B... That doesn't sound like Treblinka II, does it? ...I'll continue with another excerpt:
Q: That means you all continued on after you stopped at Treblinka?

A: When we disembarked in Lublin,
that is when I realized that we were so very few. That means that the rest either disappeared with the first action --it was (?) big ghetto or were already separated and had gone on to Treblinka and I know that my neighbors, young people, a boy and a girl, my age, went with their grandparents, in a wheelchair, so obviously I knew what happened. And my father and my uncle came out of -- you never knew what it was -- steam was coming out from both. Sometimes the steam meant that there was steam coming down as well -- hot water coming for a wash-up.

Q: You’re talking about Lublin?

A: Yes.
We were all given -- no, no, we were not all given baths. My par – our men were given a bath. That included my cousin, my uncle, my boyfriend and my father, and they got out. We saw them. And they were brought to Majdanek. Majdanek was behind, it was an adjunct, sort of a part, outlying area of the (?) of the concentration camp. We were walked to that concentration camp without the bath.
Q: Your mother was how old at this time?

A: She was 49, that wasn’t a girl. We ended in a camp, Blitzen, (?). (?). While we waited in Lublin train station, they marched in 350 men. While they were standing waiting also to be joined with us. This was the contingent of a city of 150,000 Jews. One hundred and fifty of us and 350 men. That’s all that eventually survived.

Q: Brezany?

A: That’s when they were walking to the train, I asked him. Somebody that I knew, did you see my father? He said yes, he’s in the orchestra. Oh I said, he must have more soup. I was rejoicing for him. Being something in camp to meant that he’s a little better off. Little did I know what was going to happen. So we worked in that Blitzen, indeed I worked in a knitting factory.

Q: How close was Blitzen to ______?

A: To Auschwitz?

Q: To Lublin.

A: To Lublin. No, I think this was the Blitzen. Was near Radom. Not very far, I would say ---.

Q: Another rail trip?

A: A 150, 200 miles.

Q: So you went by train again?

A: Yes, by train. But it wasn’t a big trip, no. This camp was different. It was not a typical concentration camp. It was a working camp where the families weren’t together, but women who came before us had their clothing on, their things, their belongings. We didn’t, because they took it away. We came from a concentration camp. But they did.

Q: What were you wearing?

A: I had some old rag with something on the back, whatever it was.

Q: What they gave you at Lublin?

A: Yes, after the bath. Yes, we looked real funny. They didn’t shave our heads at that time. That Blitzen was survivable until about Christmas of that year.

Q: December, December ____?

A: Was okay. By okay I meant the soup was pretty dense, there weren’t killings, there weren’t executions. They were intimidating, there were a lot of civilian Germans worked the factories. Then there came the leadership of Lublin, of that camp, Majdanek and took over. Our camp became a concentration camp and things became worse.

Q: So the Majdanek management basically, took over the management Blitzen?

A: But I didn’t know how and why and then we discovered it. Because some wood, burning wood, woodpiles came from Lublin to us. In them a piece of, a chunk of, a log was found was Hebrew inscription. That told us on November 2, for three days, machine-gunning of all Jews, they are no more. So we knew that I had no father, no boyfriend, no uncle and my mother ---. Well, she said if I survive I can find another guy, she says. Interesting, my mother. I couldn’t believe it.

Q: That’s her humor?

A: No, it was a method for surviving. Oh, we’ll manage, you did not despair.

Edits: additions
Holy Moly, what a complete miscomprehension and strawman. What difference would it possibly make whether this woman actually entered Treblinka or waited outside? The fact that the Germans had her within a five iron shot of the supposed gassing installations and then trecked her to another stop disproves the whole death camp myth.

Nor is there any evidence that the people who entered the camp were harmed. On the contrary, these might have been less healthy people who needed immediate attention for medical, hygenic and nutritional issues. There is no reason to assume that the Germans ignored the usual issues of triage, and, in all likelyhood, Treblinka was the top rated transit camp with the most experienced staff, having transitted, by that date, almost 860,000 individuals -more than any other camp.

We should also consider that Treblinka, having just been vandalized and defaced by thugs who had launched an insurrection, was not in the best shape. In addition to property damage, there would likely have been obscene, hateful graffiti covering the walls of the showers and delousing areas. It may well have been that Treblinka only functioned for the most dire emergency cases and that normal, healthy people were sent to Majdanek where the German authorities didn't have to worry about the aesthetic condition of the site.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:21 am

Thanks for the entertainment and a good LOL!
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:29 am

Like we're supposed to believe every word of Shapiro's - another Jew with a bullet "graze" wound she can't show.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 28645
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Location: sometimes

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:41 am

gaschamberhoax wrote:Like we're supposed to believe every word of Shapiro's - another Jew with a bullet "graze" wound she can't show.
So you are willing to believe and use what fits your preconceived notions from the testimony of Jews, but nothing else?

Please tell us, how did you arrive at the number of transferred survivors you took from her testimony to bolster your claim that Jews were transferred out of Treblinka II after having been admitted to become "pampered inmates at that spa" and then sent elsewhere to enjoy their "wonderful eastern vacations and ultimate homes"?
Last edited by scrmbldggs on Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

gaschamberhoax
Poster
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Transfers OUT of Treblinka II and Arad's Goof

Post by gaschamberhoax » Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:07 am

Oh I believe that she was transited through, (although my estimate of those transited with her is far too low actually considering the documentation claims far more than her quoted figure) do I believe she saw this - in an operational camp? Hell no.

So we passed the field of ashes and human bones, and they were totally unabashed. We saw it.