Most important photograph

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:37 am

It was Pyrrho who first pointed out that we all need to consider the contribution of asphyxiation to the death of those in gas chambers, so I looked at sports disasters. Death was probably not due to CO poisoning alone. This would explain the eyewitness reports of some bodies with blue lips and so on. I think this is a sensible observation considering the poor health of many of the victims arriving, the jamming of bodies into the chambers and panic at the actual time of execution was about to happen.

May I suggest a review of football crowd disasters? You will note, that despite air being present, the most common cause of death is compressive asphyxia.



There are many websites that describe this phenomena.
"In 1979, 11 young rock music fans were asphyxiated in a crowd crush outside....."

"Hillsborough football stadium disaster: Liverpool fans escape the crush .... It was clear that those dying had suffered asphyxiation and needed....."

"In crowd crush, people usually die of asphyxiation, not from being crushed.........."

"Spectator asphyxia. Effective medical management of a football crowd stampede"

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by David » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:25 am

Nessie wrote:It features Berg (and others) refusing to acknowledge that lividity does not start until at least 20 minutes and may take up to 3 hours after death before it even starts to appear.
Hello Nessie-
You are confusing lividity with the immediate flush caused by CO poisoning.
Lividity is the pooling of the blood in the lower parts of the body.
You continue to miss that a person dying of CO poisoning will flush red prior to
death.

After they die, the bright red blood that made them flush pools and is an even more
striking Cherry red.


The idea that people who die of CO turn purple or blue is plain Believer stupidity.

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:16 am

The wonderful World of David, the holocaust denier and his fabrications.
Nessie on 6OCT2012 wrote:David, how long after death do bodies show signs of redness where death is by CO?
David on 7OCT2012 wrote:Straight away...that is what kills them. I have talked to firemen who have seen the effect and it is striking
David on 17OCT2012 wrote:Science is clear that in CO poisoning the bodies turn a striking red in 20 minutes and remain that way for 48 hours or more.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... edeath.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Lividity is first apparent about 20-30 minutes after death as dull red patches or blotches which deepen in intensity and coalesce over the succeeding hours to form extensive areas of reddish-purple discolouration
David on 15OCT2012 wrote: "If people who die of CO poisoning turn CHERRY RED what do we make of claims that bodies were PURPLE
Read the above quote again David.
Fred Berg on his comedy website wrote:"ALL of the "eyewitnesses" on whom this allegation is entirely based failed to ever mention any RED coloring of even one of the victims"
SS Chemist Leiding from Gas Van trials wrote: "The corpses had, as we chemists found out/observed the typical pink outlook of men, who had died of a CO-poisoning"
Fred Berg didn't look very hard did he?
:D

The bodies go blue black after 8 to 24 hours.
Within an hour or two, the telltale discoloration becomes obvious to even the untrained eye. The pink “slap” of early livor gradually darkens to a dull, bruiselike red before progressing through shades of purple and blue as oxygen gradually disappears from the blood

Jessica Sachs "Corpse: Nature, Forensics, and the Struggle to Pinpoint Time of Death", Perseus Publishing, New York 2002, p. 15
Nessie on 15OCT2012 wrote: By now the body is starting to decompose, which really gets going about 24 hours after death and then greens, browns, blacks and darker colours appear.
David on 16OCT2012 wrote: I do not believe that CO victims can ever be purple or blue even though that would be a common sense approach to oxygen depravation.
David pretends bodies don't go blue at all, left in open pits for days & weeks, in Treblinka as observed by German eyewitnesses.

David pretends to seek "expert assistance" from Fred Berg.
David on 16OCT2012 wrote:I talked to Mr. Berg today. First, it is nice to talk to a man who both knows all the various Holocaust Tales and also knows the science. I ask Mr. Berg about the new Believer claim that bodies turn purple after "a little bit of time." The bodies turn red and (if dead) stay red.
David then gets caught forging words in a citation.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 09#p303209" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David on 18OCT2012 wrote:People must be Pink when they die of CO poisoning
"In some cases, skin, mucous membranes, and finger/toe nails of a person with carbon monoxide poisoning may become cherry red or bright pink. As this color change happens occasionally it is not a reliable carbon monoxide test / indicator of poisoning".
http://www.carbon-monoxide-survivor.com ... hours.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pyrrho the moderator on 21OCT12 wrote:We must not forget the effects of suffocation. There is not only the increase in carbon monoxide, but a drop in the levels of oxygen
and this was a very sensible contribution and where we stand today. .

So now we have it
A) Upon removal from CO gas chamber = possible blue tinge from Asphyxiation

B) 20mins to 8 -24 hours = pink in some cases depending on hemoglobin and iron due to malnutrition.

C) 24hours onward = fade to blue black as hemoglobin deoxygenated

And so we have the matching German Eye witnesses

A) Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser
trial
: "After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas... (para) I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color. Some of them had their closed, other's eyes rolled".

B) Leiding testified "The corpses had, as we chemists found out/observed the typical pink outlook of men, who had died of a CO-poisoning"

C) Treblinka's C.O. Franz Stangl "it was always a huge mass… they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips" & "I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses"

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:28 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:It features Berg (and others) refusing to acknowledge that lividity does not start until at least 20 minutes and may take up to 3 hours after death before it even starts to appear.
Hello Nessie-
You are confusing lividity with the immediate flush caused by CO poisoning.
Lividity is the pooling of the blood in the lower parts of the body.
You continue to miss that a person dying of CO poisoning will flush red prior to
death.

After they die, the bright red blood that made them flush pools and is an even more
striking Cherry red.


The idea that people who die of CO turn purple or blue is plain Believer stupidity.
Please link to non Holocaust related medical evidence of this red flush prior to death. I have been asked Scott and Berg at RODOH and they have produced no evidence whatsoever of such. Maybe you can.

How come if there is a noticeable red flush it is not mentioned in any medical description of symptoms of those suffering from CO poisoning?

No one has said people who die of CO turn purple or blue. They are saying that people who were crushed inside the packed chamber and died of suffocation would show such colours.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Cerdic » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:31 am

At Rodoh I cited a pathologist source, written by a doctor, stating that it takes atleast half a hour for the cherry red colour to become apparent. It takes longer in corpses suffering for anemia, which many in the starving Polish ghettoes did.

Furthermore, as the HC team write in their critique, many ghetto inhabitants had poor circulation in their bodies, making it less likely such a colouring would show up.

Let's try to assemble more sources that note the time frame when the colouring becomes apparent.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:45 pm

Is there a doctor in the house?
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:55 pm

This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And also:
David wrote:You continue to miss that a person dying of CO poisoning will flush red prior to death.
but various sources say that the coloration is not a given, only that it can happen but not always does.

Seems it's mentioned mostly as a telltale sign for first responders to give them a hunch about what might have happened to an unconscious person for immediate appropriate actions. Not all are found in their cars with a hose from the exhaust leading into it...
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:55 pm

Cerdic wrote:At Rodoh I cited a pathologist source, written by a doctor, stating that it takes atleast half a hour for the cherry red colour to become apparent. It takes longer in corpses suffering for anemia, which many in the starving Polish ghettoes did.

Furthermore, as the HC team write in their critique, many ghetto inhabitants had poor circulation in their bodies, making it less likely such a colouring would show up.

Let's try to assemble more sources that note the time frame when the colouring becomes apparent.
My understanding is that it takes at least 20 minutes for lividity to start to appear. Longer of a body is moved. So initially what would happen is that corpses would look as if they had not long died, until the blood pooling becomes really obvious and fixed, which is from 6 to 12 hours after death. Berg uses a corpse that is at least 6 to 12 hours old for his main photo.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:47 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Is there a doctor in the house?
I think that Nessie's evidence is fairly clear and that the holocaust deniers are simply in denial mode.

My concern is that we are focusing on one cause of death for victims in crowded gas chambers, in isolation, when we know there was probably a few causes of death all working at once.

* asphyxiation
* Carbon monoxide poisoning
* contributing pre-existing malnutrition
* contributing traumas from panic and events leading to the gas chambers.

After reading a few reports about asphyxiation deaths in large crowds at football games, concerts and religious festivals, during panics, I get the feeling that asphyxiation is probably quite a significant factor.

For the above reason, even if we were to write to a coroner and ask for a professional opinion, no opinion could be given, as a coroner would have no other examples of panic in CO based gas chambers to work from.

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Cerdic » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:50 am

Pfannensteil's testimony describes that some - not all - of the gas chamber victims were bluish in the face. CO poisoning does not cause this bluish colouring, but there are other situations where this could occur e.g children getting crushed to death by the mass of adults within the gas chamber.

The deniers are making an issue out of nothing. We would expect some of the victims to have bluish features. We would not expect them to show bright cherry red features within minutes of death.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:42 pm

Jankel Wiernik states in "A Year In Treblinka"

http://www.zchor.org/treblink/wiernik.htm#chapter11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"As I have already indicated, there was not much space in the gas chambers. People were smothered simply by overcrowding. ......Overcrowding and lack of air killed many of them in a very painful way."

Edited, wrong comment removed.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:00 am

Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:07 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death.
Why wouldn't some of them show symptoms of asphyxiation? Cedric has already offered you direct quotes from German medical officers confirming some victims died from asphyxiation.

Are you "denying" these because you are a holocaust denier?

:D

"I noticed nothing special about the corpses, except that some of them showed a bluish puffiness about the face. But this is not surprising since they had died of asphyxiation"
SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Pfannenstiel
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/ ... fannen.001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas... (para) I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color"
SS-Unterscharfuehrer Karl Schluch
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... ctest.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:24 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Sorry about the large font and colors. I only used them because it's "Mary":
scrmbldggs wrote:This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:59 am

David wrote:You continue to miss that a person dying of CO poisoning will flush red prior to death.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:...Lividity wouldn't have time to set in...
...you sure you got your story squared with "David"? :scratch:
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:16 am

scrmbldggs wrote: ...you sure you got your story squared with "David"? :scratch:
David seems to have gone on a plagiarism inspired "second summer break" for a while.
:D

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote: ...you sure you got your story squared with "David"? :scratch:
David seems to have gone on a plagiarism inspired "second summer break" for a while.
:D
Aahhh... that explains why "Mary" feels comfortable trolling him. :mrgreen:
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:27 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:......
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Symptoms for acute CO poisoning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_mon ... _poisoning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Increasing exposure produces cardiac abnormalities including fast heart rate, low blood pressure, and cardiac arrhythmia;[20][21] central nervous system symptoms include delirium, hallucinations, dizziness, unsteady gait, confusion, seizures, central nervous system depression, unconsciousness, respiratory arrest, and death.[22][23] Less common symptoms of acute carbon monoxide poisoning include myocardial ischemia, atrial fibrillation, pneumonia, pulmonary edema, high blood sugar, lactic acidosis, muscle necrosis, acute kidney failure, skin lesions, and visual and auditory problems........One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine."


http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/carbon- ... soning-pro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High-level poisoning - The above symptoms may be more severe. In addition there may be:

Personality change.
Poor performance on the mini mental state examination.
Tachycardia and tachypnoea.
Dizziness and ataxia.
Angina, hypotension, arrhythmias.
Agitation, seizures, impairment of consciousness and respiratory failure.
Cerebral oedema and metabolic acidosis may develop.
Less common features include skin blisters, rhabdomyolysis, acute kidney injury, pulmonary oedema, myocardial infarction, retinal haemorrhages, cortical blindness and choreoathetosis.
The classical cherry red coloration is rarely seen in life although it may be seen at post-mortem.


http://medind.nic.in/maa/t07/i4/maat07i4p362.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases"


https://www.advocatehealth.com/condell/ ... carbon.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Signs and Symptoms CO Poisoning - Carboxyhemoglobin levels of >60%
Fatal - Death - Cherry red skin is not listed as a sign – An unreliable finding"


http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Carbo ... oning.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The symptoms of CO poisoning in order of increasing severity include the following:

headache
shortness of breath
dizziness
fatigue
mental confusion and difficulty thinking
loss of fine hand-eye coordination
nausea and vomiting
rapid heart rate
hallucinations
inability to execute voluntary movements accurately
collapse
lowered body temperature (hypothermia)
coma
convulsions
seriously low blood pressure
cardiac and respiratory failure
death

In some cases, the skin, mucous membranes, and nails of a person with CO poisoning are cherry red or bright pink. Because the color change does not always occur, it is an unreliable symptom to count on for diagnosis. Although most CO poisoning is acute, or sudden, it is possible to suffer from chronic CO poisoning. This condition exists when a person is exposed to low levels of the gas over a period of days to months. Symptoms are often vague and include (in order of frequency) fatigue, headache, dizziness, sleep disturbances, cardiac symptoms, apathy, nausea, and memory disturbances."

That is five sources which say you are wrong and cherry red is rare and unreliable even in acute cases.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:26 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death.
Why wouldn't some of them show symptoms of asphyxiation? Cedric has already offered you direct quotes from German medical officers confirming some victims died from asphyxiation.

Are you "denying" these because you are a holocaust denier?

:D

"I noticed nothing special about the corpses, except that some of them showed a bluish puffiness about the face. But this is not surprising since they had died of asphyxiation"
SS-Standartenführer Wilhelm Pfannenstiel
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/ ... fannen.001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas... (para) I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color"
SS-Unterscharfuehrer Karl Schluch
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... ctest.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
CO poisoning is a form of asphyxiation. So everybody who died in a CO gas chamber did die from asphyxiation and did show symptoms of being asphyxiated.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:36 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:......
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Symptoms for acute CO poisoning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_mon ... _poisoning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Increasing exposure produces cardiac abnormalities including fast heart rate, low blood pressure, and cardiac arrhythmia;[20][21] central nervous system symptoms include delirium, hallucinations, dizziness, unsteady gait, confusion, seizures, central nervous system depression, unconsciousness, respiratory arrest, and death.[22][23] Less common symptoms of acute carbon monoxide poisoning include myocardial ischemia, atrial fibrillation, pneumonia, pulmonary edema, high blood sugar, lactic acidosis, muscle necrosis, acute kidney failure, skin lesions, and visual and auditory problems........One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine."


http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/carbon- ... soning-pro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High-level poisoning - The above symptoms may be more severe. In addition there may be:

Personality change.
Poor performance on the mini mental state examination.
Tachycardia and tachypnoea.
Dizziness and ataxia.
Angina, hypotension, arrhythmias.
Agitation, seizures, impairment of consciousness and respiratory failure.
Cerebral oedema and metabolic acidosis may develop.
Less common features include skin blisters, rhabdomyolysis, acute kidney injury, pulmonary oedema, myocardial infarction, retinal haemorrhages, cortical blindness and choreoathetosis.
The classical cherry red coloration is rarely seen in life although it may be seen at post-mortem.


http://medind.nic.in/maa/t07/i4/maat07i4p362.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases"


https://www.advocatehealth.com/condell/ ... carbon.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Signs and Symptoms CO Poisoning - Carboxyhemoglobin levels of >60%
Fatal - Death - Cherry red skin is not listed as a sign – An unreliable finding"


http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Carbo ... oning.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The symptoms of CO poisoning in order of increasing severity include the following:

headache
shortness of breath
dizziness
fatigue
mental confusion and difficulty thinking
loss of fine hand-eye coordination
nausea and vomiting
rapid heart rate
hallucinations
inability to execute voluntary movements accurately
collapse
lowered body temperature (hypothermia)
coma
convulsions
seriously low blood pressure
cardiac and respiratory failure
death

In some cases, the skin, mucous membranes, and nails of a person with CO poisoning are cherry red or bright pink. Because the color change does not always occur, it is an unreliable symptom to count on for diagnosis. Although most CO poisoning is acute, or sudden, it is possible to suffer from chronic CO poisoning. This condition exists when a person is exposed to low levels of the gas over a period of days to months. Symptoms are often vague and include (in order of frequency) fatigue, headache, dizziness, sleep disturbances, cardiac symptoms, apathy, nausea, and memory disturbances."

That is five sources which say you are wrong and cherry red is rare and unreliable even in acute cases.
They all say the cherry red color appears in acute CO poisoning resulting in death. Everybody who died in the gas chambers was dead. If CO poisoning is what caused these deaths, the bodies will show signs of acute CO poisoning resulting in death. Your sources say I'm right.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:42 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Why wouldn't some of them show symptoms of asphyxiation? Cedric has already offered you direct quotes from German medical officers confirming some victims died from asphyxiation.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: CO poisoning is a form of asphyxiation. So everybody who died in a CO gas chamber did die from asphyxiation and did show symptoms of being asphyxiated.
You have just destroyed David's and Fred Berg's entire argument.
Fred Berg at Nazigassings.com wrote:The Corpses would have been RED — all of the “eyewitnesses” lied!


So Mary, you now agree with Scrmbldggs, Nessie, Statistical, Cedric, Bluespace and myself, in that some of the victims died from oxygen deprivation ( and thus blue lips were sometimes seen), some died from CO poisoning ( and thus red was sometimes seen) and therefore David and Fred's arguments are just crappy holocaust denier lies.

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:02 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:They all say the cherry red color appears in acute CO poisoning resulting in death.
You are pretending to be stupid on purpose. If some of the victims are already dead from suffocation, then they are not going to then die again of carbon monoxide poising are they? They are already dead.

That's why we see eyewitness reports of both the red and pink/blue concerning the victims. Do you now acknowledge that David and Freddy Berg's argument is just ridiculous propaganda?
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:17 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Sorry about the large font and colors. I only used them because it's "Mary":
scrmbldggs wrote:This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for providing a source that supports my position. But I think this one has already been shown to us. Please try to remember that we're not talking about the various symptoms of CO poisoning that occur depending on the amount of CO that is absorbed over various time frames. We're looking for the symptoms that occur when a person suffers acute CO poisoning over a short period of time that results in death.

An good way to think about it is if the person who was exposed to CO is experiencing symptoms that are experienced by somebody who is alive (like disorientation or trouble breathing), we don't care what they look like. We only care about what they look like right after they died when they've experienced a rapid build up of CO that kills them.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:They all say the cherry red color appears in acute CO poisoning resulting in death.
You are pretending to be stupid on purpose. If some of the victims are already dead from suffocation, then they are not going to then die again of carbon monoxide poising are they? They are already dead.


Right. If they die from something besides CO poisoning then they didn't die from CO poisoning.

That's why we see eyewitness reports of both the red and pink/blue concerning the victims. Do you now acknowledge that David and Freddy Berg's argument is just ridiculous propaganda?
Mary digs a hole.jpg
No I don't agree with that. But I don't think this issue is extraordinarily important. There are much bigger problems with the Holocaust story than the color of dead Jews.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:57 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Do you now acknowledge that David and Freddy Berg's argument is just ridiculous propaganda?
Mary Q Contrary wrote: No I don't agree with that.
Explain yourself. Either you agree with David & Fred, that all bodies must be pink and no pink bodies were seen, or you don't agree with them. Which is it?
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:08 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Sorry about the large font and colors. I only used them because it's "Mary":
scrmbldggs wrote:This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for providing a source that supports my position. But I think this one has already been shown to us. Please try to remember that we're not talking about the various symptoms of CO poisoning that occur depending on the amount of CO that is absorbed over various time frames. We're looking for the symptoms that occur when a person suffers acute CO poisoning over a short period of time that results in death.

An good way to think about it is if the person who was exposed to CO is experiencing symptoms that are experienced by somebody who is alive (like disorientation or trouble breathing), we don't care what they look like. We only care about what they look like right after they died when they've experienced a rapid build up of CO that kills them.
Honey, no amount of sophistry will make your words any more believable. We ARE talking of deceased victims of acute CO poisoning.
the same source wrote:CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS
The signs of carbon monoxide poisoning vary with concentration and length of exposure. Subtle cardiovascular or neurobehavioural effects occur at low concentrations12. Lengthy exposure or acute exposure to high concentrations often causes coma and death...Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:19 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Sorry about the large font and colors. I only used them because it's "Mary":
scrmbldggs wrote:This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for providing a source that supports my position. But I think this one has already been shown to us. Please try to remember that we're not talking about the various symptoms of CO poisoning that occur depending on the amount of CO that is absorbed over various time frames. We're looking for the symptoms that occur when a person suffers acute CO poisoning over a short period of time that results in death.

An good way to think about it is if the person who was exposed to CO is experiencing symptoms that are experienced by somebody who is alive (like disorientation or trouble breathing), we don't care what they look like. We only care about what they look like right after they died when they've experienced a rapid build up of CO that kills them.
Honey, no amount of sophistry will make your words any more believable. We ARE talking of deceased victims of acute CO poisoning.
the same source wrote:CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS
The signs of carbon monoxide poisoning vary with concentration and length of exposure. Subtle cardiovascular or neurobehavioural effects occur at low concentrations12. Lengthy exposure or acute exposure to high concentrations often causes coma and death...Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
If you ARE talking about about people who were killed because they were exposed to a rapid build up of CO only then why do you keep looking at the range of signs and symptoms of people who experience CO poisoning in concentrations that prove less than fatal?
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:13 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:If you ARE talking about about people who were killed because they were exposed to a rapid build up of CO only then why do you keep looking at the range of signs and symptoms of people who experience CO poisoning in concentrations that prove less than fatal?
Essential Forensic Biology / Dr Alan Gunn / Second Edition
"For example, death from Carbon Monoxide poisoning often results in a cherry red discolouration to the skin lips and internal body organs. although if the body is not discovered for hours after death, the discolouration may not be immediately apparent owing to the settling of the blood.
https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourcei ... n&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where is your citation saying 100% of CO poisoning fatalities are cherry red?

Why are you pretending that no victims in gas chambers died of suffocation?

Do you still claim that David and Fred and correct and 100% of all gas chamber victims must be cherry red, regardless of how they died?

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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:44 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Back over at RODOH Berg is trolling the thread appealing for funds and cruising to get a ban.

http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 420#p49673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are multiple references from medical sources that discolouration is rare (2-3% according to one source). There are multiple references to such discolouration causing people to appear life like, ruddy or sunburnt and how such is a vague and unreliable means of diagnosing CO poisoning. There are multiple references to lividity not even beginning to appear until 20 minutes to 3 hours after death. Only then is cherry red lividity common and would finally become noticeable. But by then bodies have been moved, been piled up or buried and burnt. All of which mean there would not be loads of cherry red remains as Berg claims.

He is wrong, but I cannot see him or his supporters accepting such, despite all the evidence.
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Sorry about the large font and colors. I only used them because it's "Mary":
scrmbldggs wrote:This probably has been posted already but here goes... in acute poisoning:
CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS

...Adults with coronary heart disease may experience angina, arrhythmias and myocardial infarction14. Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281520/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you for providing a source that supports my position. But I think this one has already been shown to us. Please try to remember that we're not talking about the various symptoms of CO poisoning that occur depending on the amount of CO that is absorbed over various time frames. We're looking for the symptoms that occur when a person suffers acute CO poisoning over a short period of time that results in death.

An good way to think about it is if the person who was exposed to CO is experiencing symptoms that are experienced by somebody who is alive (like disorientation or trouble breathing), we don't care what they look like. We only care about what they look like right after they died when they've experienced a rapid build up of CO that kills them.
Honey, no amount of sophistry will make your words any more believable. We ARE talking of deceased victims of acute CO poisoning.
the same source wrote:CLINICAL SIGNS AND DIAGNOSIS
The signs of carbon monoxide poisoning vary with concentration and length of exposure. Subtle cardiovascular or neurobehavioural effects occur at low concentrations12. Lengthy exposure or acute exposure to high concentrations often causes coma and death...Retinal haemorrhages and the classic cherry red skin colour are seldom seen...
If you ARE talking about about people who were killed because they were exposed to a rapid build up of CO only then why do you keep looking at the range of signs and symptoms of people who experience CO poisoning in concentrations that prove less than fatal?
We are speaking mostly of the deceased. Mostly, because it also happened that some still showed signs of life when their bodies were being destroyed.

We also are citing various forensic but also other medical resources, which treat the entire range of available information, from mild, prolonged and acute exposure, from mild to severe symptoms, and also death.

Your beef would be with some of them. You'll have to ask them to keep all information strictly separate according to your preference(s).

Good luck with that. As also with your futile nitpicking and distortions. Please, keep it up, though. It's very comical, entertaining, and rather illuminating.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:52 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
If you ARE talking about about people who were killed because they were exposed to a rapid build up of CO only then why do you keep looking at the range of signs and symptoms of people who experience CO poisoning in concentrations that prove less than fatal?
We are speaking mostly of the deceased. Mostly, because it also happened that some still showed signs of life when their bodies were being destroyed.

We also are citing various forensic but also other medical resources, which treat the entire range of available information, from mild, prolonged and acute exposure, from mild to severe symptoms, and also death.

Your beef would be with some of them. You'll have to ask them to keep all information strictly separate according to your preference(s).

Good luck with that. As also with your futile nitpicking and distortions. Please, keep it up, though. It's very comical, entertaining, and rather illuminating.
What percentage of the people still showed some signs of life when their bodies were being destroyed? Three quarters? Half of them? Maybe a third? Not enough to even worry about.

Why would I have a beef with the sources that provide information about CO poisoning? They are not providing information about a very specific situation--a situation which, btw, rarely if ever occurs in the real world. Most CO poisoning is accidental. That is what the literature is geared towards. You are the person who is using their information to answer a very specific situation. You are the person who needs to figure out what is relevant and what is important in the literature you use as your source.

I don't have a beef with sources that provide a wide range of information about a broad topic. My beef is with people who are so stupid that they don't know how to read the literature and focus only on the relevant information so they just copy/paste everything they can find and hope that nobody notices.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:57 am

Just curious. What do you think the phrase "classic cherry red coloring" means?
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:52 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Just curious. What do you think the phrase "classic cherry red coloring" means?
AFAIK (and wouldn't mind being corrected), it means it is a classic feature, perhaps unique, of CO poisoning, but not the norm. And which may occur under certain circumstances, but does not always, or even often, happen.

One could look at it as a possible side effect.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:14 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: My beef is with people who are so stupid that they don't know how to read the literature .
That would be you. I have clearly posted literature showing that the cherry red is not visible in all fatal CO poisoning cases. You ignored it and kept repeating your same lies.

Yes or no? Are David and Fred Berg correct in saying all the gas chamber victims should be cherry red?
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:46 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:......
When you read medical sources that say that bright cherry red color is not always present, they are talking about CO poisoning in general. Mild CO poisoning won't have the same symptoms as acute CO poisoning. Nobody in the AR camps was slowly poisoned over several days. Nobody died from CO poisoning and wasn't discovered for several days. They were all killed within two to twenty minutes and almost immediately removed from the gas chamber. They would all show symptoms of acute CO poisoning that resulted in a rapid death. Lividity wouldn't have time to set in and wouldn't be contributing to the appearance of the corpses (that is, if the hilarious stories of CO poisoning at the AR camps were true).
Symptoms for acute CO poisoning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_mon ... _poisoning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Increasing exposure produces cardiac abnormalities including fast heart rate, low blood pressure, and cardiac arrhythmia;[20][21] central nervous system symptoms include delirium, hallucinations, dizziness, unsteady gait, confusion, seizures, central nervous system depression, unconsciousness, respiratory arrest, and death.[22][23] Less common symptoms of acute carbon monoxide poisoning include myocardial ischemia, atrial fibrillation, pneumonia, pulmonary edema, high blood sugar, lactic acidosis, muscle necrosis, acute kidney failure, skin lesions, and visual and auditory problems........One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine."


http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/carbon- ... soning-pro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High-level poisoning - The above symptoms may be more severe. In addition there may be:

Personality change.
Poor performance on the mini mental state examination.
Tachycardia and tachypnoea.
Dizziness and ataxia.
Angina, hypotension, arrhythmias.
Agitation, seizures, impairment of consciousness and respiratory failure.
Cerebral oedema and metabolic acidosis may develop.
Less common features include skin blisters, rhabdomyolysis, acute kidney injury, pulmonary oedema, myocardial infarction, retinal haemorrhages, cortical blindness and choreoathetosis.
The classical cherry red coloration is rarely seen in life although it may be seen at post-mortem.


http://medind.nic.in/maa/t07/i4/maat07i4p362.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Cherry-red skin colour associated with severe carbon monoxide poisoning, is seen in only 2-3% of symptomatic cases"


https://www.advocatehealth.com/condell/ ... carbon.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Signs and Symptoms CO Poisoning - Carboxyhemoglobin levels of >60%
Fatal - Death - Cherry red skin is not listed as a sign – An unreliable finding"


http://www.healthofchildren.com/C/Carbo ... oning.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The symptoms of CO poisoning in order of increasing severity include the following:

headache
shortness of breath
dizziness
fatigue
mental confusion and difficulty thinking
loss of fine hand-eye coordination
nausea and vomiting
rapid heart rate
hallucinations
inability to execute voluntary movements accurately
collapse
lowered body temperature (hypothermia)
coma
convulsions
seriously low blood pressure
cardiac and respiratory failure
death

In some cases, the skin, mucous membranes, and nails of a person with CO poisoning are cherry red or bright pink. Because the color change does not always occur, it is an unreliable symptom to count on for diagnosis. Although most CO poisoning is acute, or sudden, it is possible to suffer from chronic CO poisoning. This condition exists when a person is exposed to low levels of the gas over a period of days to months. Symptoms are often vague and include (in order of frequency) fatigue, headache, dizziness, sleep disturbances, cardiac symptoms, apathy, nausea, and memory disturbances."

That is five sources which say you are wrong and cherry red is rare and unreliable even in acute cases.
They all say the cherry red color appears in acute CO poisoning resulting in death. Everybody who died in the gas chambers was dead. If CO poisoning is what caused these deaths, the bodies will show signs of acute CO poisoning resulting in death. Your sources say I'm right.
No they don't. They say people who have acute CO poisoning which will kill if untreated rarely show discolouration. So those who died in the gas chambers willrarely show discolouration.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:56 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:....
If you ARE talking about about people who were killed because they were exposed to a rapid build up of CO only then why do you keep looking at the range of signs and symptoms of people who experience CO poisoning in concentrations that prove less than fatal?
That point has been taken into account and only acute or severe CO poisoning symptoms are being studied. It turns out the answer is the same and discolouration is rare.
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:30 am

CO poisoning is sadly very common. The multiple sources quoted often reference how common it is. A lot is known about CO poisoning unlike say poisoning by cyanide.

The multiple sources deal with chronic and acute poisoning and no matter what they agree there are multiple symptoms which mimic other illnesses and do not appear in all cases.

If cherry red skin discolouration appeared in all or a vast majority of cases of severe poisoning where exposure was rapid, it would have been noticed and reported by now. Such cases would occur where a house is unoccupied for a while and the CO builds up to a high level. Then the resident returns home and is suddenly exposed to high levels and has acute poisoning. I know someone who had that and nearly died. She did not go cherry red. None of the medical sources say check for cherry red. It is rare and unreliable.

The phrase classic cherry red has been picked up and used by various sources. However none make it specific that it is a common symptom in those about to die. The denier/revisionists have just picked on that phrase to try and suggest it is common. It is like Berg's minterpretation of coroners immediately at the scene of death. That does mean they were there immediately at the time of death. It means by the time they get there lividity will have started to form and they should recognise cherry red as a sign of CO poisoning. Apparently 60% did not.

For Berg to be correct the majority of people dying from high level short term exposure will have to turn noticeably cherry red when alive. That is when blood is being pumped around the body and its redness gets to the outer skin. Then on death they look cherry red. They cannot flush red as David claimed (without providing any evidence). The body cannot flush when the heart has stopped. At most we have reports of some who in death appear ruddy, lifelike or sunburnt. Considering how people had been forced to live up to arriving at the chambers that would not be odd. Just the embarrasment of being naked before going into the chamber would cause people to flush a more red colour.

Then we get to lividity. It takes time to form. No where in multiple sources does CO poisoning show up as an exception whereby the bodies are already the cherry red colour lividity forms.
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David
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by David » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:11 pm

Nessie wrote:CO poisoning is sadly very common. A lot is known about CO poisoning unlike say poisoning by cyanide.
The multiple sources deal with chronic and acute poisoning and no matter what they agree there are multiple symptoms which mimic other illnesses and do not appear in all cases.

If cherry red skin discolouration appeared in all or a vast majority of cases of severe poisoning where exposure was rapid, it would have been noticed and reported by now. [snip]
That does mean they were there immediately at the time of death.

For Berg to be correct the majority of people dying from high level short term exposure will have to turn noticeably cherry red when alive.
Hello Nessie. "mimic other illnesses?"
I thought we were discussing death caused by CO poisoning?


The chemistry of dying by CO is pretty simple.
CO binds with hemoglobin at a chemical bond 200 times stronger than oxygen.
(Remember the 200 times!)
This creates carboxyhemoglobin COHb COHb does not carry oxygen to the cells
COHb makes the blood very red.
COHb over 40% starts to make some living persons visibly pink and sick.
The more COHb, the redder the blood, the pinker the living person.

Death occurs when 60%+- of the hemoglobin is converted to COHb.
At 60% COHb 98% of the dead bodies would be flushed pink or red.

After death, lividity sets in, pooling the over 60% COHb blood in the lower parts of the
body and making the very startling cherry red effect.

This Cherry red effect will last because COHb is a very stable compound…
200 times a normal bond with oxygen.
It can be seen 8 weeks after death.


Quotes for Believers to learn
Unlike other conditions that decrease oxygen in the blood, victims of carbon monoxide poisoning are almost never pale or blue (cyanotic). Although it doesn't happen every time, skin coloring in victims of severe carbon monoxide poisoning will often be bright pink or flushed red.
http://firstaid.about.com/od/hazardousm ... soning.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine. In pathological (autopsy) examination the ruddy appearance of carbon monoxide poisoning is notable because unembalmed dead persons are normally bluish and pale, whereas dead carbon-monoxide poisoned persons may simply appear unusually lifelike in coloration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Journal of Forensic Science, Vol. 7, 1962, "Carbon Monoxide Poisoning" by Theodore Rowan, M.B., B.S. and Frank C. Coleman, B.A., M.D., p. 111
Diagnosis of acute CO poisoning depends on 1) History of exposure, 2) Appearance of victim (as given by Haldane in a classic description following the Tylerstown explosion, 1896), a carmine-red tinge, most noticeable on cheeks and lower limbs, discernable on tongue, lips and mucous membranes everywhere. This may be just as noticeable eight weeks after death.

Not one "eye witness" from Treblinka or any of the so-called Carbon monoxide
Death Camps mentions either the "notable" flushed pink/red coloration of the gas chamber victims or the very striking carmine-red tinge that must have appeared
on the bodies.

The "eye witnesses" who do mention a color make a guess at what would be
expected in a case of hypoxia, i.e. normally bluish and pale.
That would be a clear sign of of someone who has NOT seen bodies of people
who died of CO poisoning.


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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:26 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:I thought we were discussing death caused by CO poisoning?
We are. You are deflecting.

Could you or Berg supply a medical citation that states 100% of fatal CO poisoning victims will be Cherry Red? The answer was no.

Could you or Berg support your claim that gas chamber victims only died of CO poisoning and that none alternatively died of asphyxiation ( as identified by SS doctors)? The answer was no.

Therefore your claim, set out below, is completely debunked.
1) 100% of gas chamber victims died of CO poisoning False
2) 100% of CO fatal victims remain Cherry Red forever.False
3) No one mentioned seeing a Cherry red body ( apart from those who did)False
4) Therefore the holocaust never happened.False

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Nessie
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Re: Most important photograph

Post by Nessie » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:13 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:CO poisoning is sadly very common. A lot is known about CO poisoning unlike say poisoning by cyanide.
The multiple sources deal with chronic and acute poisoning and no matter what they agree there are multiple symptoms which mimic other illnesses and do not appear in all cases.

If cherry red skin discolouration appeared in all or a vast majority of cases of severe poisoning where exposure was rapid, it would have been noticed and reported by now. [snip]
That does mean they were there immediately at the time of death.

For Berg to be correct the majority of people dying from high level short term exposure will have to turn noticeably cherry red when alive.
Hello Nessie. "mimic other illnesses?"
I thought we were discussing death caused by CO poisoning?
We are. You miss the point that CO poisoning is hard to diagnose because it has no distinguishing features. You think there is a distinguishing feature, people discolour and can go cherry red. Yet no medical source backs you up in the claim. Instead you take a few sources and misinterpret what they say.

David wrote:The chemistry of dying by CO is pretty simple.
CO binds with hemoglobin at a chemical bond 200 times stronger than oxygen.
(Remember the 200 times!)
This creates carboxyhemoglobin COHb COHb does not carry oxygen to the cells
COHb makes the blood very red.
COHb over 40% starts to make some living persons visibly pink and sick.
The more COHb, the redder the blood, the pinker the living person.

Death occurs when 60%+- of the hemoglobin is converted to COHb.
At 60% COHb 98% of the dead bodies would be flushed pink or red.
That theory is not back up by observation. All the medical sources which comment on discolouration in life say it is rare.
David wrote:After death, lividity sets in, pooling the over 60% COHb blood in the lower parts of the
body and making the very startling cherry red effect.
True, but you keep on ignoring the time that takes and you cannot explain why references to cherry red lividity appearing square with you claiming they are cherry red already.
David wrote:This Cherry red effect will last because COHb is a very stable compound…
200 times a normal bond with oxygen.
It can be seen 8 weeks after death.

Quotes for Believers to learn
Unlike other conditions that decrease oxygen in the blood, victims of carbon monoxide poisoning are almost never pale or blue (cyanotic). Although it doesn't happen every time, skin coloring in victims of severe carbon monoxide poisoning will often be bright pink or flushed red.
http://firstaid.about.com/od/hazardousm ... soning.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"One classic sign of carbon monoxide poisoning is more often seen in the dead rather than the living – people have been described as looking red-cheeked and healthy (see below). However, since this "cherry-red" appearance is common only in the deceased, and is unusual in living people, it is not considered a useful diagnostic sign in clinical medicine. In pathological (autopsy) examination the ruddy appearance of carbon monoxide poisoning is notable because unembalmed dead persons are normally bluish and pale, whereas dead carbon-monoxide poisoned persons may simply appear unusually lifelike in coloration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Journal of Forensic Science, Vol. 7, 1962, "Carbon Monoxide Poisoning" by Theodore Rowan, M.B., B.S. and Frank C. Coleman, B.A., M.D., p. 111
Diagnosis of acute CO poisoning depends on 1) History of exposure, 2) Appearance of victim (as given by Haldane in a classic description following the Tylerstown explosion, 1896), a carmine-red tinge, most noticeable on cheeks and lower limbs, discernable on tongue, lips and mucous membranes everywhere. This may be just as noticeable eight weeks after death.
So from those quotes it is clear discolouration is rare in the living and no mention is made of how long after death it appears.
David wrote:Not one "eye witness" from Treblinka or any of the so-called Carbon monoxide
Death Camps mentions either the "notable" flushed pink/red coloration of the gas chamber victims or the very striking carmine-red tinge that must have appeared
on the bodies.
There are two, the chemist who saw the vans being emptied and Berg refers to one on his site.
David wrote:The "eye witnesses" who do mention a color make a guess at what would be
expected in a case of hypoxia, i.e. normally bluish and pale.
That would be a clear sign of of someone who has NOT seen bodies of people
who died of CO poisoning.
The witnesses refer to what they remember. The evidence shows why only two noticed signs of CO poisoning.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.