denierbud auschwitz

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Matthew Ellard
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:12 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Talk to homophobic Matthew. He said the connecting structure was a lift. You guys can't agree on anything. No wonder the Holocaust will one day be erased from the pages of history.
The lift is in Krema II. Are you saying the denierbud video is crap because it makes the same statement? Are you two idiots confused between Dr Terry comment that Pruefer was in fact referring to KREMATORIUM IV concerning oven breakdowns versus the lift in Krema II in denierbud's video?

And as for homophobia....well "Mary" you should ask "David the holocaust denier" why he spends all day and is preoccupied changing my font into pink. Using all your available brain cells (both of them) give me a reason for David to do this? He's obviously gay and wants me to see his Ernst Rohm side. What other reason could there be? I can't think of one. David is pretty creepy and I wouldn't let him near my kids.

Do you have a problem with David being a gay holocaust denier?

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by nickterry » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:35 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Talk to homophobic Matthew. He said the connecting structure was a lift. You guys can't agree on anything. No wonder the Holocaust will one day be erased from the pages of history.
If absolute unanimity of interpretation is your gold standard then I guess nothing much ever happened in history since you're not going to find it anywhere. But be careful, in my experience, 'revisionists' and the revisionist-inclined disagree with each other far more than sane people. Are you sure you want to be hoist by your own petard on this one?

Matthew was wrong. But so were you. The error resulted from a potential binary choice regarding a very peripheral detail in one small excerpt of a lengthy set of interrogations of the engineer who helped build the crematoria at Birkenau.

It was of course compounded by the fact that one of you quoted from a website whereas the other did nothing more than react to the website quote, neither of which is regarded as how one does history properly.

All of this might as well be slapped next to the thesaurus entry for 'mountains out of molehills'.

And that's the best "you guys" ever do.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:31 pm

nickterry wrote:You seem to have a very black-and-white view of reliability. ALL historians have to deal with sources that are less than perfectly reliable. So do all lawyers, judges and juries and also journalists. There is no such thing as the perfect witness, because human beings do not always express themselves with perfect clarity, nor do they have perfect memories.
And do ALL historians and lawyers, judges, juries, and journalists dismiss the unreliability of witnesses they rely upon by citing the possibility that these witnesses were suffering from PTSD? Because Nessie said we cannot rule out PTSD as an explanation for the way witnesses to the Holocaust recount their testimony. And when he says witnesses he means both perpetrators and "victims."

No, they don't. Historians and lawyers, judges, juries, and journalists dismiss unreliable testimony. They don't use it and cite PTSD as a possible reason for their unreliability.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:37 pm

Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:40 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:And as for homophobia....well "Mary" you should ask "David the holocaust denier" why he spends all day and is preoccupied changing my font into pink. Using all your available brain cells (both of them) give me a reason for David to do this? He's obviously gay and wants me to see his Ernst Rohm side. What other reason could there be? I can't think of one.
Bigots often have trouble seeing the world through anything except their own narrow minded prejudiced eyes.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:02 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:And as for homophobia....well "Mary" you should ask "David the holocaust denier" why he spends all day and is preoccupied changing my font into pink. Using all your available brain cells (both of them) give me a reason for David to do this? He's obviously gay and wants me to see his Ernst Rohm side. What other reason could there be? I can't think of one.
Bigots often have trouble seeing the world through anything except their own narrow minded prejudiced eyes.
Hmmmmm.... so you can't think of any other reason for David to do this either. Glad we agree.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:30 pm

nickterry wrote:
If absolute unanimity of interpretation is your gold standard then I guess nothing much ever happened in history since you're not going to find it anywhere. But be careful, in my experience, 'revisionists' and the revisionist-inclined disagree with each other far more than sane people. Are you sure you want to be hoist by your own petard on this one?


You are always better at spreading smears than arguing facts,
Nick but try to stay on topic


Matthew was wrong. But so were you. The error resulted from a potential binary choice regarding a very peripheral detail in one small excerpt of a lengthy set of interrogations of the engineer who helped build the crematoria at Birkenau.
You are the one pretending that Prufer had a "binary choice"
Neither Krema II and III nor Krema IV and V meet Prufer's description, ie.
one "gas chamber" with a "connecting structure."

Now you minimize the importance of Prufer..."'mountains out of molehills,"
but his inability to describe the location of the "gas chamber" relative to the
cremation furnaces is a major problem for Believers...or at least those few honest ones.

Prufer obviously had no idea what he was supposed have seen.
Like people in witchcraft trials, he was guessing at what he supposed the "Devil"
must have looked like.

The inverse of this problem is the failure of "eye witnesses" to see the

CHERRY RED LIVIDITY
This is a striking effect of CO poisoning which would have been noticed by any
witness to a pile of naked bodies of CO poisoning.
But it is an unexpected event that false witnesses would not think of.
And guess what, not one witness ever saw it!
They exected that people who died of suffocation would be

PURPLE or BLACK

Guess what, that is what they ALL described....always purple, black, blue,
any color but the surprising
CHERRY RED.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:45 pm

David wrote: Prufer obviously had no idea what he was supposed have seen.
Kurt Prufer worked with Karl Schultze. They worked on the gas chambers. They knew exactly what was going on. Read the evidence.

Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
Germany, March 5, 1946
"
Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took
place the liquidation of innocent human beings?

A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.


Engineer Fritz Sander testifying on March 7 1946
Q. Although you knew about the mass liquidation of innocent human beings in crematoriums, you devoted yourself to designing and creating higher capacity incineration furnaces for crematoriums - and on your own initiative.

A. I was a German engineer and key member of the Topf works and I saw it as my duty to apply my specialist knowledge in this way to help Germany win the war, just as an aircraft construction engineer builds airplanes in wartime, which are also connected with the destruction of human beings.


Testimony of Engineer Karl Schultze
A. Prufer was an expert. he designed and constructed these crematoriums and led the building operations in the concentration camps. I was responsible for the ventilation systems and for its air injection into the muffles. In specific instances, I lead the installation operations personally. I personally led the installation work in Auschwitz crematoriums and gas chambers. For this purpose, I traveled to Auschwitz three times in 1943.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:13 am

David wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Talk to homophobic Matthew. He said the connecting structure was a lift. You guys can't agree on anything. No wonder the Holocaust will one day be erased from the pages of history.
What is amazing to me is the extent that these Believer
experts will go to come up with crackpot "explanations" for the contradictory
tales.


And the extent to which their fellow travelers will just agree that it's plausible. The Holocaust would be dead if the general public found out about these more ridiculous explanations.


Look at the stupidities with the Prufer quote

"Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Nickterry claims that Prufer is talking about Krema IV and V...
Why did he talk Prufer speak of "the crematorium?" He should have
said " 'two crematorium' had gas chambers next to them"
We have seen that the comment about "connecting structure" is bogus.
It was one building.
See http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... an-1678.jp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the alleged "gas chamber" of Krema IV and V consisted of several
rooms.
Homophobic Matt says it must've been Krema II or III that Prufer was talking about because he says the "connecting structure" was the lift. An elevator between two spaces that are "next to each other." WTF? Obviously he doesnt' even read the garbage he posts. But Nickterry rescues homophobic Matt by telling us that the statement from Prufer was translated from whatever into whatever into whatever into English so of course the original meaning is going to get garbled. But it's still a reliable statement because, as Nessie tells us, Prufer could very easily have been suffering from PTSD. Nessie's partially right. We can be certain Prufer was suffering from TSD when he gave the statement. TSD was very common when Kraut bigwigs were being interrogated by the Allies.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:21 am

Nessie wrote:Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD. You said some survivor testimony might be shatbit crazy because they were suffering from PTSD. You tell me which ones those are and those will be the ones that I dismiss.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote: Prufer obviously had no idea what he was supposed have seen.
Kurt Prufer worked with Karl Schultze. They worked on the gas chambers. They knew exactly what was going on. Read the evidence.

Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
Germany, March 5, 1946
"
Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?

A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

Q


You're babbling, Matt.
Read what Prufer said he saw...obviously it cannot be Krema I, II,or III.


Nick's attempt to relate the testimony to Krema IV or V is bogus too.
Just look at a picture of the building. It was all one building.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... -photo.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The building was built as one building.
See http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... o-4302.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See construction plans
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... n-2036.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


But even more so...the alleged "gas chamber" of Krema IV and V was a
series of 6 small rooms. That is 6!
See- http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... n-2036.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If Prufer were referring to Krema IV or V he would have said,
"Yes, I did see six next to the crematorium. The gas chambers were part of the
crematoria building"


Nick's clownish confabulation is absurd.






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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:28 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Homophobic Matt says it must've been Krema II or III that Prufer was talking about because he says the "connecting structure" was the lift.
No I didn't. Nice try Mary. I posted the Prufer testimony as to when a Topf Krema broke down after 6 months due to excessive use, as he built all the Kremas at Auschwitz. You assumed it was Krema II although I did not mention Krema II and you asked what was the intervening structure. I assumed it was Krema II and said the lift. Dr Terry then pointed out Prufer was talking about Krema IV or V based on the description of the structure. Therefore I will follow Dr Terry's expertise and agree with him.

Then came the fun bit..... I linked 27 confessions by members of the SS or Topf who directly state they were aware of the gas chamber liquidations. This includes Prufer. However you two idiots can't deal with that. David lied and said Prufer was mistaken about the liquidations even though his fellow Topf worker, Karl Schultze
stated he directly worked on the gas chambers and gave the dates.

So Mary and his pink fonting "bum chum" David are left in a bit of a bind. They can't quote Prufer as he admits Jews were been liquidated. In fact poor Mary & David are now stuck with 27 German eye witnesses who were there running the gas chambers.

Well David & Mary... our biblical holocaust denial couple,..... what are you going to do next? Will David go Ernst Rohm on me again and change my font to pink in revenge? Will Mary say all the Germans are lying because Mary doesn't like what they say?

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:57 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD.
No Mary, you can't dismiss all the testimonies because some give exact dates and the confessions support each other. So Mary, the holocaust denier, which one of these do you accept?

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/testimony.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial,
Dusseldorf: "If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber".

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz "Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time"


Testimony of Treblinka's second commandant, Stangl
"Wirth suddenly appeared, looked around on the gas chambers on which they were still working, and said: 'right, we'll try it out right now with those twenty-five working Jews. Get them up here'

From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr
Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.


SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]

Anton Lauer, Police Reserve Battalion
"The exhaust gases were fed into the inside of the van. I can still today hear the Jews knocking and shouting 'Dear Germans, let us out"

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch
I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths.

Testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Kurt Bolender
After undressing, the Jews were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians...After the Jews entered the gas chambers

Testimony of SS private Hoeblinger
Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the cans.

Testimony of SS private Boeck
There was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof.

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad
The tins were filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then quickly covered.


Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard
I recall particularly one mass execution when ....

SS-man Theodor Malzmueller
When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard where the so-called "gas-van" was parked.

From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
the door was opened and bodies thrown out. They still seemed alive, their limbs were so supple. They were thrown in, I can still remember a civilian pulling out teeth with some pliers and then I just got the hell out of there....

SS-Untersturmfuehrer Oberhauser
The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August 1942 can be divided into two phases....

Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August 1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp.

Mary? Do you want me to list the rest of the testimonies? I will include Franz, Hoess and Stangl in the next batch.

Can you & David now list all your eyewitnesses that said there was no gass chambers? What was that?............ you don't have any! Gosh!

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:11 am

David the holocaust denier wrote:CHERRY RED LIVIDITY
This is a striking effect of CO poisoning which would have been noticed by any witness to a pile of naked bodies of CO poisoning.


Sooooo Mary, you are a holocaust denier. David's entire argument that the holocaust didn't happen is made on his assumption that "someone" should have noticed that C.O. victims were were red before turning blue-black, 8 to 24 hours after gassing.

However Stangl is the only eyewitness who makes a comment on the colour of bodies (not lips) when they are in in the full pits at Treblinka. He says the excuted Jews were blue black.

Do you agree with David the holocaust denier's logic?

Do you agree with David that all the SS gas chamber eyewitnesses lied in court and pleaded guilty on purpose? ( If so, can you explain why they did this?)

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:27 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote: Prufer obviously had no idea what he was supposed have seen.
Kurt Prufer worked with Karl Schultze. They worked on the gas chambers. They knew exactly what was going on. Read the evidence.
Your "evidence" is riddled with contradictions and impossibilities
like the thousands of "eye witnesses testimonies" to witches covens, ghosts,
and assorted miracles.
An example is the failure to mention the bright cherry red lividity of CO poisoning.

That is why it is useful to review the actual building(s) built. Thnx to Denierbud
for bringing a dose of skepticism and science to the discussion.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:26 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Your "evidence" is riddled with contradictions and impossibilities
Nope. You're lying. List the contradictions. You can't. ....but you will change my font into pink!

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: An example is the failure to mention the bright cherry red lividity of CO poisoning.
Only one eyewitness mentioned body colour when he confessed. That was Stangl who confessed to mass murder. Would you show me the various judges who asked SS members "What body colour did you see?" I couldn't find any.

Poor poor David, can't find one SS member who says there were no gas chambers. Tsk tsk tsk....what a loser....

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:43 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD. You said some survivor testimony might be shatbit crazy because they were suffering from PTSD. You tell me which ones those are and those will be the ones that I dismiss.
I would not be surprised if it was found all witnesses to the Holocaust had PTSD to one extent or another. Evidence for that is found in the book 'Witness to Hell' about British POWs at Auschwitz and in particular the final chapter about what happened to the POWs after the War.

The only witnesses to dismiss are those where the is evidence from other sources to show they are lying. I say it is nonsense to try and dismiss a witness just because he described something as a connecting structure which you do think is a very good descriptive.

In any case, could this just be an translation issue?

Mary, which witnesses do you believe?
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:46 pm

Are we seriously expected to dismiss all witness to bodies after gassing as they did not mention lividity colour, no matter what that colour is?
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:17 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD.
No Mary, you can't dismiss all the testimonies because some give exact dates and the confessions support each other. So Mary, the holocaust denier, which one of these do you accept?

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/testimony.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial,
Dusseldorf: "If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber".

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz "Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time"


Testimony of Treblinka's second commandant, Stangl
"Wirth suddenly appeared, looked around on the gas chambers on which they were still working, and said: 'right, we'll try it out right now with those twenty-five working Jews. Get them up here'

From the testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Wilhelm Bahr
Q: How long did it take to gas the Russians?
A: I returned after two hours and they were all dead.


SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947
I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women [from the women's camp in Auschwitz]

Anton Lauer, Police Reserve Battalion
"The exhaust gases were fed into the inside of the van. I can still today hear the Jews knocking and shouting 'Dear Germans, let us out"

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch
I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths.

Testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Kurt Bolender
After undressing, the Jews were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians...After the Jews entered the gas chambers

Testimony of SS private Hoeblinger
Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the cans.

Testimony of SS private Boeck
There was a sign 'to disinfection'. He said 'you see, they are bringing children now'. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof.

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad
The tins were filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after
opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then quickly covered.


Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard
I recall particularly one mass execution when ....

SS-man Theodor Malzmueller
When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard where the so-called "gas-van" was parked.

From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
the door was opened and bodies thrown out. They still seemed alive, their limbs were so supple. They were thrown in, I can still remember a civilian pulling out teeth with some pliers and then I just got the hell out of there....

SS-Untersturmfuehrer Oberhauser
The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August 1942 can be divided into two phases....

Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist
When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August 1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp.

Mary? Do you want me to list the rest of the testimonies? I will include Franz, Hoess and Stangl in the next batch.


Do I need to troll the internet and copy/paste a bunch of quotes from people who have seen UFOs?

Can you & David now list all your eyewitnesses that said there was no gass chambers? What was that?............ you don't have any! Gosh!
If the statute of limitations on war crimes had been allowed to expire in 1978, you might have a glimmer of a tangible point here. Unfortunately for your argument, anybody who was close enough to the action to provide credible testimony that there were never any gas chambers was close enough to the action to be charged with war crimes. Hence, they keep their mouth shut. So nobody saying there were no gas chambers means nothing. It's exactly what you'd expect in the current legal milieu.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:39 am

Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD. You said some survivor testimony might be shatbit crazy because they were suffering from PTSD. You tell me which ones those are and those will be the ones that I dismiss.
I would not be surprised if it was found all witnesses to the Holocaust had PTSD to one extent or another. Evidence for that is found in the book 'Witness to Hell' about British POWs at Auschwitz and in particular the final chapter about what happened to the POWs after the War.

The only witnesses to dismiss are those where the is evidence from other sources to show they are lying. I say it is nonsense to try and dismiss a witness just because he described something as a connecting structure which you do think is a very good descriptive.

In any case, could this just be an translation issue?

Mary, which witnesses do you believe?
If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events. For example, SK describe hauling bodies from the gas chamber to the crematorium. They are describing hauling bodies from the morgue to the crematorium. SS guards who heard the wailing of Jews as they were forced into the gas chamber actually witnessed the fearful reactions of Jews who were unfamiliar with delousing procedures. Eyewitnesses who say they saw Jews being whipped to force them into the gas chamber are describing the actual event of Jews being whipped because they didn't want to go through a delousing procedure. Witnesses who can correctly describe the position of windows relative to the doors in the gas chamber can do so because they actually did see the morgues. I believe the majority of eyewitnesses to gassings are telling the truth as they know it but they are misinterpreting what they actually witnessed. Of course, some of them are just plain liars. I don't believe any of them who say "gas chambers" actually did see a gas chamber.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:32 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: Do I need to troll the internet and copy/paste a bunch of quotes from people who have seen UFOs?
No Mary, these are testimonies in front of judges with other supporting evidence. In other words, you can't explain why all these SS personnel pleaded guilty and supplied collaborated eyewitness testimony. In fact, you can't explain why you two dumb holocaust deniers can't find one German eyewitness saying there were no gas chambers. Can you see how stupid you are? (Probably not)
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If the statute of limitations on war crimes had been allowed to expire in 1978, you might have a glimmer of a tangible point here.
Mary? Are you not feeling well today? These people were convicted of war crimes more than 50 years ago. Even more fun is this.....
Article 29 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court states that genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes "shall not be subject to any statute of limitations".

Did you get confused or something? Remember, it's "David" who had the stroke, not you!

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:40 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events. For example, SK describe hauling bodies from the gas chamber to the crematorium.
I see...... and the eyewitnesses pouring Zyklon B from tins down shafts on the roof were just SS guys taking LSD during the war? Is that your working theory?

So Mary, my cute little holocaust denier,.....how come you two holocaust deniers can't find one witness who confirms your theory? Is that because you made up this theory last night?
Mary Q Contrary wrote: I don't believe any of them who say "gas chambers" actually did see a gas chamber.
I see..... so the Topf engineer who put the plumbing into a gas chamber and confessed in court was actually day dreaming?

You holocaust deniers are mad as hatters!

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:07 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD. You said some survivor testimony might be shatbit crazy because they were suffering from PTSD. You tell me which ones those are and those will be the ones that I dismiss.
I would not be surprised if it was found all witnesses to the Holocaust had PTSD to one extent or another. Evidence for that is found in the book 'Witness to Hell' about British POWs at Auschwitz and in particular the final chapter about what happened to the POWs after the War.

The only witnesses to dismiss are those where the is evidence from other sources to show they are lying. I say it is nonsense to try and dismiss a witness just because he described something as a connecting structure which you do think is a very good descriptive.

In any case, could this just be an translation issue?

Mary, which witnesses do you believe?
If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events. For example, SK describe hauling bodies from the gas chamber to the crematorium. They are describing hauling bodies from the morgue to the crematorium. SS guards who heard the wailing of Jews as they were forced into the gas chamber actually witnessed the fearful reactions of Jews who were unfamiliar with delousing procedures. Eyewitnesses who say they saw Jews being whipped to force them into the gas chamber are describing the actual event of Jews being whipped because they didn't want to go through a delousing procedure. Witnesses who can correctly describe the position of windows relative to the doors in the gas chamber can do so because they actually did see the morgues. I believe the majority of eyewitnesses to gassings are telling the truth as they know it but they are misinterpreting what they actually witnessed. Of course, some of them are just plain liars. I don't believe any of them who say "gas chambers" actually did see a gas chamber.
Sorry, but I am lost with that response. It reads as you do believe some witnesses to homicidal gassings but do not believe there were homicidal gassings :?
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:04 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: Do I need to troll the internet and copy/paste a bunch of quotes from people who have seen UFOs?
No Mary, these are testimonies in front of judges with other supporting evidence. In other words, you can't explain why all these SS personnel pleaded guilty and supplied collaborated eyewitness testimony. In fact, you can't explain why you two dumb holocaust deniers can't find one German eyewitness saying there were no gas chambers. Can you see how stupid you are? (Probably not)


Matt is trying to avoid the subject of Denierbud's video, the impossibility
that the Krema II building was used as a "gas chamber."
As to "testimony in front of judges," BFD?
Testimony was given at Nuremberg that the Germans committed the Katyn killings,
or that 1,400,000 people were gassed at Majdanek, or that the Germans experimented
with the commercial production of human soap. It also applies to testimony in thousands of witch craft trials. Gee, Matt, how come no one stood up and told the Court
that the Devil was not real!

As to Germans standing up and announcing anything about "gas chambers"
is a typical hypocritical BS ElLard argument.
Expressing doubts about the goofball tales of underground trick gas chambers is
a felony (5 years) or invite criminal charges.

In fact, there are several brave Germans who did stand up and tell the truth.
Thies Christophersen was stationed at Auschwitz and gave detailed and well supported testimony (in front of a judge, Mat)
See http://www.historiography-project.org/b ... ersen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This drove the Believers into a frenzy and Christophersen became the object of
a smear campaign and various attempts at criminal prosecution. He was
"punished" by being deported from Switzerland.

The more intelligent question is, WHY DO BELIEVERS MAKE DOUBTING THE
HOLOCAUST A FELONY?


Matt is a Believer...which means he loves and Believes in the sick weird claims
even when they contradict each other

Revisionists tend to go with the physical evidence such as the structures as they were
designed and built....or the LACK of evidence when it comes to the millions of
missing bodies.



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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:58 am

Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please show the connection between PTSD and unreliability and how it affects witness testimony to such an extent you would dismiss the who lot.
I don't dismiss all survivor testimony because some of them might have been suffering from PTSD. You said some survivor testimony might be shatbit crazy because they were suffering from PTSD. You tell me which ones those are and those will be the ones that I dismiss.
I would not be surprised if it was found all witnesses to the Holocaust had PTSD to one extent or another. Evidence for that is found in the book 'Witness to Hell' about British POWs at Auschwitz and in particular the final chapter about what happened to the POWs after the War.

The only witnesses to dismiss are those where the is evidence from other sources to show they are lying. I say it is nonsense to try and dismiss a witness just because he described something as a connecting structure which you do think is a very good descriptive.

In any case, could this just be an translation issue?

Mary, which witnesses do you believe?
If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events. For example, SK describe hauling bodies from the gas chamber to the crematorium. They are describing hauling bodies from the morgue to the crematorium. SS guards who heard the wailing of Jews as they were forced into the gas chamber actually witnessed the fearful reactions of Jews who were unfamiliar with delousing procedures. Eyewitnesses who say they saw Jews being whipped to force them into the gas chamber are describing the actual event of Jews being whipped because they didn't want to go through a delousing procedure. Witnesses who can correctly describe the position of windows relative to the doors in the gas chamber can do so because they actually did see the morgues. I believe the majority of eyewitnesses to gassings are telling the truth as they know it but they are misinterpreting what they actually witnessed. Of course, some of them are just plain liars. I don't believe any of them who say "gas chambers" actually did see a gas chamber.
Sorry, but I am lost with that response. It reads as you do believe some witnesses to homicidal gassings but do not believe there were homicidal gassings :?
Sorry if I'm a bit elliptical. I have a bad habit of giving Holocaust Survivors the benefit of the doubt. People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen. However, the hundreds of thousands of people who serve as eyewitnesses to the gas chambers that the Believers claim exist are actually very few when it comes to saying they actually participated in the operation of a gas chamber.

How many Germans testified to actually participating in a homicidal gassing? Not Germans who testified that they knew about homicidal gas chambers. Not Germans who testified that they saw from a distance or who were aware when gassings were taking place. Not Germans who participated in one end of the process such as being present during selections or who supervised Jews who removed the bodies from the gas chambers. Not Jews who saw their whole family marched in the direction of a smokestack and never saw them again. But ones who actually looked through the peephole or who threw the gas pellets into the gas chamber. Or those who performed a peripheral but necessary role such as writing the instructional material that was used to train the SS on the operation of gas chambers or those who taught the seminars on proper procedures for mass execution with gas chambers. How many of those are there?
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:43 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: Do I need to troll the internet and copy/paste a bunch of quotes from people who have seen UFOs?
No Mary, these are testimonies in front of judges with other supporting evidence.


Let's see that "other supporting evidence" as you call it.


In other words, you can't explain why all these SS personnel pleaded guilty and supplied collaborated eyewitness testimony. In fact, you can't explain why you two dumb holocaust deniers can't find one German eyewitness saying there were no gas chambers. Can you see how stupid you are? (Probably not)
I just explained why. Didn't you read what I wrote?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If the statute of limitations on war crimes had been allowed to expire in 1978, you might have a glimmer of a tangible point here.
Mary? Are you not feeling well today? These people were convicted of war crimes more than 50 years ago. Even more fun is this.....
Article 29 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court states that genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes "shall not be subject to any statute of limitations".

Did you get confused or something? Remember, it's "David" who had the stroke, not you!
I was talking about West Germany you homophobic hater. But thank you for verifying that there is no statute of limitations on war crimes.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:45 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: How many Germans testified to actually participating in a homicidal gassing?
I listed 17 eyewitnesses of gas chamber operations above. I promised another 20. Have you forgotten already? Tsk tsk tsk

What makes you particulary stupid is your "current working theory" that German SS eyewitnesses all suffered PTSD and dreamed that they were operating gas chambers and gas vans...... even though they were at different trials and locations. So why did they all have the same story ?

Even stranger, the Topf engineer, who testified to actually working on the Auschwitz gas chambers kept his blueprints which can be seen in Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp By Yisrael Gutman. Did he dream all of this in your "working theory"

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:22 am

David the really stupid holocaust denier wrote:In fact, there are several brave Germans who did stand up and tell the truth. Thies Christophersen was stationed at Auschwitz and gave detailed and well supported testimony (in front of a judge, Mat)


Lie No 1) Thies Christophersen was stationed at the Plant Protection Institute in Rajsko growing Dandelions (a flower) and not Auschwitz. Rajsko is three kilometers away from Auschwitz. He was a private in the Wehrmacht not the SS.

Lie No 2) Thies Christophersen claimed in his pamphlet Auschwitz Lies "After the war I saw a TV film about Auschwitz that showed a building with huge smoke stacks. I am very sorry, but when I left the camp at Auschwitz in December 1944, I did not see this building"
Here is a photo of one of the chimneys of the five Kremas he didn't see.....
Auschwitz chimney.jpg
Lie no 3) Thies Christophersen claimed in his book " It is an absolute certainty that no people were shot at Auschwitz, because this we would have heard" That this fact is disproved by camp records (especially those which state 'auf der Flucht erschossen'

Lie No 4) Thies Christophersen claimed in his pamphlet Auschwitz Lies "could go anywhere in the camp, as he was wearing the uniform of an officer" He was a private in reality and made this up.

However what David didn't mention was.........Thies Christophersen is a convicted holocaust denier who wrote a pamphlet called "Auschwitz Lie" but the pamphlet's facts, as mentioned above, were destroyed as fabrications by a holocaust denier.

1) Thies Christophersen was convicted in 1976 for dissemination of Nazi propaganda
2) Thies Christophersen was convicted 1978 on charges of incitement and insulting the state and did 12 months in gaol.
3) Thies Christophersen in 1981, was again convicted by the District Court of Flensburg for holocaust denial and served another 18months.


What's really funny is even "Warheit" the holocaust denier from CODOH acknowledges that it's a fabrication. I will now move onto the Zundel trial (which you all can read)
David the really stupid holocaust denier wrote:Thies Christophersen gave detailed and well supported testimony (in front of a judge, Mat)
Asked by the crown prosecutor if he quoted half of the quote (in his "Auschwitz lies" pamphlet) because the whole quote didn't support his position, Christophersen stated he did not know the other half.

Christophersen, asked if he denied there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, replied that he had not found anybody who could give him details about the gas chambers although he had made efforts to do so

On re-examination, Christophersen testified that sympathy for National Socialism was not a justification for lying. His motives for testifying were as follows: he had come to the conviction that the gas chamber stories were a hoax, a swindle.

How interesting! So Mary the holocaust denier, says all the SS witnesses to gas chambers made up the same story after the war as they were suffering from PTSD yet here is a Wehrmacht private claiming he was asking about gas chambers during the war!
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Nessie » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:39 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:......


People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.

.....
Interesting hypothesis. So you say the Holocaust was a massive conspiracy?

Who organised it?

How did they do it?

Evidence your answers please.
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:52 pm

Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:......


People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.

.....
Interesting hypothesis. So you say the Holocaust was a massive conspiracy?

Who organised it?

How did they do it?

Evidence your answers please.
Here is what Revisionists say,

Revisionists have found that the first casualty of war is Truth. We have found that much of the history we are taught today about WWII was originally influenced by Soviet, British and American wartime propaganda which exaggerated and exploited the real tragedies of real people for propaganda purposes serving the State. This concerns not just Jews but Slavs, Roma, Jehovah’s Witnesses and, in some versions, Gays.

As you have seen, governments lie. But, more commonly they put
a strong spin on a tale.
Take the Invasion of Iraq. Why the heck to we attack Iraq?
It was a disaster, tens of thousands of people were killed and no one
gives a Rat's ass that it was a criminal and unjustified act.
Why the heck did England invade Iraq, Nessie?

I don't believe in "conspiracies" but I do believe that humans have a
remarkable capacity for self-delusion and a strong tendency to
accept dumb ideas from people they view as "leaders."

Holocaust Belief is just like belief in witches or devils.

Both had many witnesses to seeing impossible things.
Some witnesses were "victims," some witnesses confessed to being witches.
The authorities of the time smiled on the tales and
People who did not believe the tales were punished.

That is why Denierbud brings a skeptical rationalism to Holocaust Belief.
He merely looks at the physical evidence and sees the tales are
impossible.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: How many Germans testified to actually participating in a homicidal gassing?
I listed 17 eyewitnesses of gas chamber operations above. I promised another 20. Have you forgotten already? Tsk tsk tsk

What role did these seventeen eyewitnesses play in the operation of the gas chambers?
What makes you particulary stupid is your "current working theory" that German SS eyewitnesses all suffered PTSD and dreamed that they were operating gas chambers and gas vans...... even though they were at different trials and locations. So why did they all have the same story ?


PTSD is Nessie's current working theory as to why eyewitness testimony ranges from implausible to insulting the intelligence and why it can still be relied upon. I say that crazy talk must be treated as crazy talk. I find it amusing that scholars in every discipline apply my standards to accepting or rejecting eyewitnesses. Only the Holocaustics make excuses for the crazy talk.

Even stranger, the Topf engineer, who testified to actually working on the Auschwitz gas chambers kept his blueprints which can be seen in Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp By Yisrael Gutman. Did he dream all of this in your "working theory"
A Topf engineer who worked on the morgues kept the blueprints he used? Well why didn't you say so earlier? Now I know the Holocaust is true!!!
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:59 am

Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:......


People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.

.....
Interesting hypothesis. So you say the Holocaust was a massive conspiracy?
I don't say the Holocaust is a massive conspiracy.
Who organised it?

How did they do it?

Evidence your answers please.
I don't know. You are the one who said it was a conspiracy. I guess it would work the same way the conspiracy to remove the taint of genocide from National Socialism so Nazism can take over again and finish the job is suppose to work. Nizkor likes that one. Why don't you ask them?
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:42 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:......


People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.

.....
Interesting hypothesis. So you say the Holocaust was a massive conspiracy?
I don't say the Holocaust is a massive conspiracy.
Who organised it?

How did they do it?

Evidence your answers please.
I don't know. You are the one who said it was a conspiracy. I guess it would work the same way the conspiracy to remove the taint of genocide from National Socialism so Nazism can take over again and finish the job is suppose to work. Nizkor likes that one. Why don't you ask them?

Gee, It is Believers who claim there was a huge conspiracy...

The "conspiracy" was Hitler and a few Nazi's who were in on the secret.

From "The Showtrial"
Witness,[Hoess] your statements will have far-reaching significance. You are perhaps the only one who can throw some light upon certain hidden aspects, and who can tell which people gave the orders for the destruction of European Jewry, and can further state how this order was carried out and to what degree the execution was kept a secret.
and
DR. KAUFFMANN: During that conference did Himmler tell you that this planned action had to be treated as a secret Reich matter?
HOESS: Yes. He stressed that point. He told me that I was not even allowed to say anything about it to my immediate superior Gruppenfáhrer Glácks."

Boy, now THAT is some conspiracy...you can't even tell your immediate superior
what your real job is!!

That the Believers tell us that the Nazi conspirators used "secret code words"
to fool their co-workers.
From Nizkor-
Here, we will deal specifically with the code word Sonderbehandlung, literally "special treatment" or "special handling." This is probably encountered most often. Other code words include:

Umsiedlung, literally "resettlement"
Sonderaktion, literally "special action"
Evakuierung, literally "evacuation"
and, of course,
die Endlösung der Judenfrage, literally "the final solution to the Jewish question."

For a Nizkor "explanation" of the secret code words:
material = "Zyklon-B
"resettlement" = sending people to gas chambers
"special treatment" = murder
Showers = gas chambers

So Hoess would (according to Nizkor) tell his boss that
various Jews were going to be "resettled" and he would need
more "material" for the "special action....and Glacks would be fooled.


So, Nessie, it is the Believers who preach a secret Nazi conspiracy
of people using code words and lying to their spouses and bosses.
Believers tell us that the conspiracy was so profound that Hitler was
afraid to put his order in writing! Isn't that amazing?

The Believer conspiracy even extends to the documents that Denierbud looked
at regarding the Secret Trick Underground Shower/gas chamber.

See...the German conspiracy even extended to use of "code words' on the
blue prints...Leichenkeller (morgue) really meant "gas chamber"

The claim of an amazing conspiracy is an integral part of Holocaust Belief.

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:14 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: What role did these seventeen eyewitnesses play in the operation of the gas chambers?
But Mary darling, I already quoted their connection with eye-witnessing actual gas chambers or their operation here. Are you having problems reading?
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 20#p301838" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I specifically chose the testimony of eyewitnesses who witnessed gassings or built the gas chambers as per your request. David gave one eyewitness, a Wehrmacht private, who worked on a dandelion farm three kilometres from Auschwitz who said he never saw the Kremas or gas chambers and that no one was shot at Auschwitz until he admitted lying in court at the Zundel trial.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: PTSD is Nessie's current working theory as to why eyewitness testimony ranges from implausible to insulting the intelligence and why it can still be relied upon. I say that crazy talk must be treated as crazy talk.
But Mary my little holocaust denier, both you and David said the eyewitness testimonies don't make sense, but neither of you can actually give one inconsistency at all. In fact you haven't even looked at them or you would have realised they were all about gassings and gas chambers. Oh well holocaust deniers are stupid.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: A Topf engineer who worked on the morgues kept the blueprints he used? Well why didn't you say so earlier? Now I know the Holocaust is true!!!
Are you having trouble reading again?
Testimony of Engineer Karl Schultze
A. Prufer was an expert. he designed and constructed these crematoriums and led the building operations in the concentration camps. I was responsible for the ventilation systems and for its air injection into the muffles. In specific instances, I lead the installation operations personally. I personally led the installation work in Auschwitz crematoriums and gas chambers. For this purpose, I traveled to Auschwitz three times in 1943.

What do you think that word...gas chamber means? Go on....you can do it....be brave and not a little girl.....

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:32 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.
No the documentary, eyewitness and phsysical evidence confirms the gas chambers. You haven't presented one iota of evidence saying it didn't. In fact you failed to read the eyewitness testimonies at all as you are a holocaust denier.
David the senile holocaust denier wrote: Gee, It is Believers who claim there was a huge conspiracy.
No. It is holocaust deniers. Mary is now going to explain to us in detail why all the German eyewitnesses talk about gas chambers at different times at different trials while she says they never saw gas chambers. Mary, you can explain that can't you? No?

David the senile holocaust denier wrote: That the Believers tell us that the Nazi conspirators used "secret code words"
Ausrotten is not a coded word and Himmler used it in his little speech where he confirms the mass executions od Jews. Tsk tsk tsk.

Heinrich Himmler Admits to the Nazi Holocaust at Posen Recording
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by David » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:19 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David the senile holocaust denier wrote: That the Believers tell us that the Nazi conspirators used "secret code words"
[Ausrotten is not a coded word and Himmler used it in his little speech where he confirms the mass executions od Jews. Tsk tsk tsk.
Matt, you have it bassackwards, as usual.
The claim that Ausrotten is a "code word" comes fromm the Nizkor Gang.

But you have given another reason that the Holocaust Believer claim of a vast
secret conspiracy by Hitler and a few SS is absurd.


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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:49 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Ausrotten is not a coded word and Himmler used it in his little speech where he confirms the mass executions od Jews. Tsk tsk tsk.
David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Matt, you have it bassackwards, as usual. The claim that Ausrotten is a "code word" comes fromm the Nizkor Gang.
WRONG Again! David Irving said that ausrotten was a coded word for transport. However Hitler used the word correctly meaning extermination. Nizkor points this out on their website.

I explained to the British-born Irving, that my Occidental College colleague Juergen Pelzer, a German-born professor who teaches German, said ausrotten means "exterminate." Irving responded (1994): "The word ausrotten means one thing now in 1994, but it meant something very different in the time Adolf Hitler uses it." Pelzer checked his historical dictionaries. Ausrotten has always meant "exterminate."

I would first draw attention to the famous memorandum on the four-years plan of August, 1936. In that Adolf Hitler says, "we are going to have to get our armed forces in a fighting state within four years so that we can go to war with the Soviet Union. If the Soviet Union should ever succeed in overrunning Germany it will lead to the ausrotten of the German people."

in a December, 1944, conference regarding the Ardennes attack against the Americans, Hitler ordered his generals "to ausrotten them division by division" (Irving, 1977, p. 741). Was Hitler giving the order to transport the Americans out of the Ardennes division by division?! "No," Irving admitted (1994):

http://www.nizkor.com/hweb/orgs/america ... tic-9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mary Q Contrary
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:58 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: People who say they saw homicidal gassings taking place or who say they participated in them are lying. We know witnessing a homicidal gassing is impossible because homicidal gassings didn't happen.
No the documentary, eyewitness and phsysical evidence confirms the gas chambers. You haven't presented one iota of evidence saying it didn't. In fact you failed to read the eyewitness testimonies at all as you are a holocaust denier.
You blew off my request for "supporting evidence" from the trials (because you don't have any). Let's see how quickly you can run from offering up the "documentary" and "phsysical" evidence you claim exists. Run little homophobe, run!

And I read those idiotic little quotes you plagiarized from some Holomania website. Have you? If you actually had you would see that none of those people were directly involved in the process. They knew about them, sure. But none of them actually participated beyond being an observer.
David the senile holocaust denier wrote: Gee, It is Believers who claim there was a huge conspiracy.
No. It is holocaust deniers. Mary is now going to explain to us in detail why all the German eyewitnesses talk about gas chambers at different times at different trials while she says they never saw gas chambers. Mary, you can explain that can't you? No?
How many witches denied witchcraft or the Devil when they were on trial for their evil deeds? What's that? None of them? Since these people were testifying in a court of law, they were telling the truth. So witchcraft is real as is the Devil, right? What's that? No, it's not?!? So you are positing a vast conspiracy to make people believe in witchcraft and the Devil? Then how do you explain belief in witchcraft and the Devil without a vast conspiracy?

David the senile holocaust denier wrote: That the Believers tell us that the Nazi conspirators used "secret code words"
Ausrotten is not a coded word and Himmler used it in his little speech where he confirms the mass executions od Jews. Tsk tsk tsk.

Heinrich Himmler Admits to the Nazi Holocaust at Posen Recording
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I didn't hear Heinrich admitting to anything at Posen. Although I don't know what the German word for Nazi Holocaust is.
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Matthew Ellard
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:42 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: You blew off my request for "supporting evidence" from the trials (because you don't have any).
Start here at Avalon. It is the full trial scripts for the IMT. The evidence is all clearly stated.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/witness.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can them move onto to the subsequent trials, The Medical Case, The Milch Case, The Justice Case, The Pohl Case, The Flick Case, The I.G. Farben Case; Case, The Hostage Case, The RuSHA Case, The Einsatzgruppen Case, The Krupp Case, The Ministries Case, The High Command Case. We will then move onto the Polish trials (most Auschwitz personell were tried in Poland) and later German trials.

So pick an eyewitness from the list of 17 that I gave above and I will take you though all the supporting evidence.

Mary Q Contrary wrote: And I read those idiotic little quotes you plagiarized from some Holomania website.
They are court transcripts from trials. You can't get around that can you?
Mary Q Contrary, a week ago wrote: If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events
Mary Q Contrary wrote: But none of them actually participated beyond being an observer.


"about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber",

"Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up"

Q: Did you look at their bodies?
A: Yes, because I had to load them.


"I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women from the women's camp in Auschwitz."

"I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths".

"as driver would start the engine right away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the exhaust gases. Once this had taken place...I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it there"
Matthew Ellard wrote:Mary is now going to explain to us in detail why all the German eyewitnesses talk about gas chambers at different times at different trials while she says they never saw gas chambers. Mary, you can explain that can't you? No?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many witches denied witchcraft or the Devil when they were on trial for their evil deeds? What's that? None of them?
During her testimony, Bridget stated that, “I am no witch. I am innocent. I know nothing of it Salem Witch Trials. Next time check your actual history before posting.

Mary Q Contrary
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Re: denierbud auschwitz

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: You blew off my request for "supporting evidence" from the trials (because you don't have any).
Start here at Avalon. It is the full trial scripts for the IMT. The evidence is all clearly stated.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/witness.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can them move onto to the subsequent trials, The Medical Case, The Milch Case, The Justice Case, The Pohl Case, The Flick Case, The I.G. Farben Case; Case, The Hostage Case, The RuSHA Case, The Einsatzgruppen Case, The Krupp Case, The Ministries Case, The High Command Case. We will then move onto the Polish trials (most Auschwitz personell were tried in Poland) and later German trials.

So pick an eyewitness from the list of 17 that I gave above and I will take you though all the supporting evidence.
Start at the top and go down each one telling me what role they played in the gassing operation.
Mary Q Contrary wrote: And I read those idiotic little quotes you plagiarized from some Holomania website.
They are court transcripts from trials. You can't get around that can you?
Transcripts from witch trials are court transcripts from trials. So what?
Mary Q Contrary, a week ago wrote: If you read the statements of witnesses to the gas chambers carefully you will find that they describe actual places and they describe actual events
Mary Q Contrary wrote: But none of them actually participated beyond being an observer.


"about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber",

"Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up"

Q: Did you look at their bodies?
A: Yes, because I had to load them.


"I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women from the women's camp in Auschwitz."

"I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths".

"as driver would start the engine right away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the exhaust gases. Once this had taken place...I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it there"
Matthew Ellard wrote:Mary is now going to explain to us in detail why all the German eyewitnesses talk about gas chambers at different times at different trials while she says they never saw gas chambers. Mary, you can explain that can't you? No?
The same way accused witches were able to provide corroborating testimony.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:How many witches denied witchcraft or the Devil when they were on trial for their evil deeds? What's that? None of them?
During her testimony, Bridget stated that, “I am no witch. I am innocent. I know nothing of it Salem Witch Trials. Next time check your actual history before posting.
Is she denying the reality of witchcraft? You're not very good at deciphering the meaning of words, are you?
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