My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:08 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: Roberto submitted his entry to the N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge on this forum intending for it to be judged by Michael Shermer.
Incorrect. Greg Gerdes stated that the NAFH Challenge would be judged by Michael Shermer before Roberto even applied. Greg Gerdes never contacted Michael Shermer to seek his permission to do this. Greg Gerdes already knew that Michael Shermer was not going to be part of his "challenge" so it was fraudulent from day one.

Didn't you know this? Why don't you sent a nice letter to Greg Gerdes and ask him if Michael Shermer ever agreed to be part of his "challenge". Come back and tell us what he says.


Greg Gerdes fraudulently makes Michael Shermer part of his "challenge" without permission
http://www.nafcash.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fourth - If a potential claimant can get Michael Shermer to categorically endorse an eligible posted “proof” (by explicitly stating that said posted “proof” meets his own, “Skeptic” Magazine’s and The “Skeptics” Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof), the claimant will receive a $1,000.00 reward.

NOTE: If Shermer refuses to endorse an eligible “proof,” potential claimants can still receive a secondary reward by getting a judge to rule that their submittal did not contain any errors of stated fact and did in fact meet the proven - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY

Even more fun is the "The National Association of Forensic Historians" claims to be trademarked. Can you say in which country it is trademarked and where its registered office is? If you can't find either the trademark or registered office, can you tell me who is exactly offering the reward? There's a good boy....Do some research into your own cult members.. :D

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:31 pm

Daedalus wrote:Shouldn't you be at a clan rally?
The CCC doesn't have a rally scheduled until next Spring.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Daedalus » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:37 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Daedalus wrote:Shouldn't you be at a clan rally?
The CCC doesn't have a rally scheduled until next Spring.
:roll:
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:38 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote: Roberto submitted his entry to the N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge on this forum intending for it to be judged by Michael Shermer.
Incorrect. Greg Gerdes stated that the NAFH Challenge would be judged by Michael Shermer before Roberto even applied. Greg Gerdes never contacted Michael Shermer to seek his permission to do this. Greg Gerdes already knew that Michael Shermer was not going to be part of his "challenge" so it was fraudulent from day one.


Then I guess Gerdes pulled a fast one on Roberto and made him look like a fool.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Didn't you know this? Why don't you sent a nice letter to Greg Gerdes and ask him if Michael Shermer ever agreed to be part of his "challenge". Come back and tell us what he says.

Greg Gerdes fraudulently makes Michael Shermer part of his "challenge" without permission
http://www.nafcash.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fourth - If a potential claimant can get Michael Shermer to categorically endorse an eligible posted “proof” (by explicitly stating that said posted “proof” meets his own, “Skeptic” Magazine’s and The “Skeptics” Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof), the claimant will receive a $1,000.00 reward.

NOTE: If Shermer refuses to endorse an eligible “proof,” potential claimants can still receive a secondary reward by getting a judge to rule that their submittal did not contain any errors of stated fact and did in fact meet the proven - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY

Even more fun is the "The National Association of Forensic Historians" claims to be trademarked. Can you say in which country it is trademarked and where its registered office is? If you can't find either the trademark or registered office, can you tell me who is exactly offering the reward? There's a good boy....Do some research into your own cult members.. :D
OMG! You mean that Roberto can still win a secondary prize if he can find "a judge" in lieu of Michael Shermer to endorse his submittal? And Roberto can't even do that!!! Double OMG!!!
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:01 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:Then I guess Gerdes pulled a fast one on Roberto and made him look like a fool.
Err...No Mary. Gerdes made the offer to the public, not Roberto. Gerdes pulled a fast one on holocaust deniers by pretending he had Michael Shermer as a judge. The NAFCASH challenge was just another fraudulent document by a holocaust denier. Nothing unusual.

So Mary? Who is paying the money for the NAFCASH Challenge? The name isn't registered, there is no registered office and Greg Gerdes name doesn't appear anywhere on the offer. Did you actually think the NAFCASH Challenge was real?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Then I guess Gerdes pulled a fast one on Roberto and made him look like a fool.
Err...No Mary. Gerdes made the offer to the public, not Roberto. Gerdes pulled a fast one on holocaust deniers by pretending he had Michael Shermer as a judge. The NAFCASH challenge was just another fraudulent document by a holocaust denier. Nothing unusual.


No he didn't. Gerdes never said Michael Shermer agreed to act as a judge. He said that Michael Shermer or somebody else needed to certify the submission in order to win. Roberto posted his submission and said it was up to Michael Shermer to certify his submission....which he didn't.....because Roberto's submission didn't prove anything.

So Mary? Who is paying the money for the NAFCASH Challenge? The name isn't registered, there is no registered office and Greg Gerdes name doesn't appear anywhere on the offer. Did you actually think the NAFCASH Challenge was real?
Don't know. Don't care.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Daedalus » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:32 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Then I guess Gerdes pulled a fast one on Roberto and made him look like a fool.
Err...No Mary. Gerdes made the offer to the public, not Roberto. Gerdes pulled a fast one on holocaust deniers by pretending he had Michael Shermer as a judge. The NAFCASH challenge was just another fraudulent document by a holocaust denier. Nothing unusual. So Mary? Who is paying the money for the NAFCASH Challenge? The name isn't registered, there is no registered office and Greg Gerdes name doesn't appear anywhere on the offer. Did you actually think the NAFCASH Challenge was real?
Don't know. Don't care.
Yeah, we get that.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:39 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote: No he didn't. Gerdes never said Michael Shermer agreed to act as a judge.
The alternative to Michael Shermer was a judge. Greg Gerdes never asked a judge either. Try actually reading it.

NOTE: If Shermer refuses to endorse an eligible “proof,” potential claimants can still receive a secondary reward by getting a judge to rule that their submittal did not contain any errors of stated fact and did in fact meet the proven - WITH 100 % CERTAINTY

Thankfully we already have judges who reviewed the matter. Justice Iona Nikitchenko, Justice Sir Geoffrey Lawrence, Justice Francis Biddle and Justice Henri Donnedieu de Vabres. Ever heard of them?

Matthew Ellard wrote: So Mary? Who is paying the money for the NAFCASH Challenge? The name isn't registered, there is no registered office and Greg Gerdes name doesn't appear anywhere on the offer. Did you actually think the NAFCASH Challenge was real?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Don't know. Don't care.
I see.... so you know it is just another scam by your lying holocaust denier cult. Fair enough. You are a member of this ridiculous cult.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:21 am

Regarding the "NAFCASH" business, I have once again had to remove a user account from a previously-banned user who periodically tries to post variations on the NAFCASH "challenge". That person might as well stop wasting their time. I will not allow a previously-banned user to post here.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:15 am

Time to see if Michael Shermer is willing to endorse Roberto's numbers game as proving that any of the alleged fifty four huge mass graves contain at least 19 bodies. Let's see what we have. Hmmm. Looks like Michael Shermer is still telling Roberto that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Just as I figured. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mary is an idiot

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:05 pm

Mary the holocaust denier wrote:Time to see if Michael Shermer is willing to endorse Roberto's numbers game

We are talking about Greg Gerdes. What is this "numbers game"? ( Citation or link please)

Why does Michael Shermer have to back up, Roberto, someone he doesn't know, for a document he hasn't read, on a forum he doesn't go to?

Mary the holocaust denier wrote:Looks like Michael Shermer is still telling Roberto that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Michael Shermer doesn't know who Roberto is.

Are you having some sort of hallucination or are you just confused and bewildered, as per normal

:D

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:44 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:Opening statement:

The following information is being presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies, in accordance with - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM grave numbering system, which can be seen in this webpage here:

http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Table

The above table shows an estimative calculation of the minimum amounts of human cremation remains (ashes, bone fragments, teeth or tooth meal) that can be reasonably expected to be currently buried in the mass graves at the former Nazi extermination camp of Chełmno, as well as a calculation, based on a reasonably estimated average weight of the deportees, of the number of corpses corresponding to these cremation remains. It is based on archaeological data and other evidence mentioned below, and on realistic, conservative assumptions complementing such data and other evidence where necessary. It can therefore, in my opinion, be considered proof of the numbers of human cremation remains and corresponding numbers of whole corpses stated therein, according to the standards of proof that would be applied by a German court of law, whereby a reasonable estimated minimum quantity is considered the (maximum) quantity that can be proven, even if there are good reasons to assume that the actual quantity is higher.

The table consists of the following columns:

Grave #: the number of the grave according to the report about Archaeological Research in the area of Chełmno extermination camp by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak, which is transcribed in Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak (editor), Chelmno Witnesses Speak and on the website of the Museum of the former Extermination Camp in Chełmno-on-Ner (hereinafter called the "Chełmno Report").
(a) Volume m3: Volume in cubic meters of each grave, according to the Chełmno Report and my blog articles Mattogno on Chełmno Mass Graves and Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 3).

(b) Thereof occupied by corpses (m3): Part of each grave’s volume that is occupied by whole corpses. In the Chełmno Report there is no indication of whole corpses inside the graves, so this column is blank.

(c) = (a) - (b) = Thereof occupied by soil and cremation remains (m3): The part of each grave’s volume occupied by soil and cremation remains is the difference between each grave’s total volume and the part of that volume occupied by whole corpses. As no whole corpses were reported to exist in the Chełmno graves, this volume is equal to the each grave’s total volume.

(d) % of human cremation remains in soil: The concentration/density of human cremation remains contained in the soil of each grave is an essential parameter for establishing the amount of human cremation remains in each grave. The term "human cremation remains" is understood as meaning burned or unburned parts of human bodies left over from a not necessarily complete cremation process, crushed or uncrushed and including ashes, bone fragments, teeth (scorched or not) and tooth meal.

The Chełmno Report provides the following descriptions of human cremation remains contained in the graves:

Grave # 1 ("The first grave")
Under the humus, on the top of the ash layer, we found several unburned objects belonging to the victims.
Grave # 2 ("The second grave")
While the new layout was being uncovered, the existence of burned-out objects and ashes as well as crushed human bones both burned and unburned was stated.[…] Further part of the grave contains burned-out objects mixed with inclusions of ash and bonemeal as well as lumps of burn waste and coke.[…] The northern segment of the grave may probably be linked to different attempts to remove the corpses, burn them inside the graves or in primitive furnaces-hearths as well as to the process of crushing bones. In the other segment, bones ground into bonemeal can already be found.[…]
Grave # 3 ("The third grave")
The contents of the grave includes sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones.
Grave # 4 ("The fourth grave")
It is filled with gray sandy soil mixed with inclusions of burn waste, ash and crushed bones.
Grave # 5 ("The fifth grave")
The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones.
One notes that the pits making up grave # 5 are described as containing a "significant" mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones in their soil, whereas no such precision is made as concerns the other four graves. This suggests that the concentration of human cremation remains in the first four graves is rather lower than in grave # 5 – high enough to be detected, but not so high as to be considered "significant".

As the report does not express in percentage terms what is meant by significant and not-so-significant admixtures of human remains in the soil, another archaeological source must be used to obtain some precision. In his Chełmno book (see my blog Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 3)), Revisionist writer Carlo Mattogno informs his readers that at the end of 1988 the Koniń District Museum sent to the Institute of Forensic Medicine of the Poznań Medical Academy a package containing four sacks of soil mixed with ashes and bone fragments collected in the area of the Chełmno camp, requesting an expert opinion about whether these ashes and bone fragments were of human origin and what their concentration in the soil was. The Institute of Forensic Medicine confirmed on 5 December 1988 that these remains were of human origin and that the concentration of human remains in all the material sent could be estimated at "some percent". Also not a precise quantification, but at least it allows for making some reasonable assumptions. "Some" is certainly more than one or two percent and certainly less than ten percent. It would not be far-fetched to assume that "some percent" could mean 5 % or more. However, in order to be on the safe side I’ll consider that it’s no more than 2.5 %. As the samples were examined in 1988, they must have been collected before, and as only the first grave and what was considered one of the camp’s crematoria had been investigated before 1988, the samples examined must have been from either of the two. The relatively low concentration of human remains in these samples is likely to be equal to the concentration found in the other three graves proper (i.e. the ones that, unlike the ash disposal pits that make up grave # 5, had originally been used to bury whole human corpses), regarding which the concentration of human remains in the soil is not pointed out as being "significant". Therefore, this was the concentration of human cremation remains that I considered to be present in Chełmno graves nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4.

In the pits that make up grave # 5, on the other hand, the concentration of burn waste and crushed human bones was found to be "significant". These pits, as mentioned in the blog Mattogno on Chełmno Mass Graves, had already been described in the report of the site investigation made in 1945 by Judge Włodzimierz Bednarz, where it is pointed out that "because of the soil’s fertilization by human ashes the vegetation in this area is much richer and its color is much greener". Even today, according to the Chełmno Report, "the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface". All this shows that the concentration of human cremation remains in grave # 5 is much higher than in graves nos. 1 to 4. How much higher cannot be determined on hand of the available data, so caution calls for assuming the lowest threshold of what can be considered a "significant" concentration, which I conservatively put at 10 %. The actual concentration of human remains in this grave is probably higher, but according to the rationale that a reasonably estimated minimum is a proven maximum, I considered this percentage as being the minimum density of human cremation remains in Chełmno grave # 5.

(e) = (c) * (d) = Volume of human cremation remains (m3): The volume in cubic meters of human cremation remains in each grave, calculated by multiplying the part of each grave’s volume containing soil and human cremation remains instead of whole corpses (which in the case of the Chełmno graves is the whole volume of each grave) with the (minimum) percentage thereof that can be considered to consist of human cremation remains, i.e. 2.5 % for graves nos. 1 to 4 and 10 % for grave # 5.

(f) = ( e) * 0.5 t/m3 (metric tons): The volume in cubic meters of human cremation remains, calculated in column (e), is converted into the weight of these cremation remains in metric tons considering the specific weight of human cremation remains, which according to Mattogno, Graf and Kues (MGK) is 0.5 g/cm3 (see, among others, my blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on Aktion Reinhard(t) Cremation (4)).

The weight of human cremation remains in the Chełmno mass graves, calculated in the above table, is the following:

Grave #_Weight of human cremation remains in metric tons
1_15.11
2_66.68
3_52.20
4_68.25
5_204.80
Total_407.04

Readers who want the above weights in pounds need only introduce them into the online weight converter. 1 metric ton equals 2,204.6226218 pounds.

(g) Corpse residue factor: This factor represents the part of a corpse’s original volume and weight that is left over after cremation. Dividing the cremation residue weight in column (f) by this factor, one thus obtains the corpse’s original weight prior to cremation. According to MGK (see again the above-mentioned blog) the remains left behind by cremation would correspond to about 5 % of the corpses’ non-decomposed weight. This percentage, however, is too low for open-air cremation, in which corpses are not reduced as thoroughly as in a crematorium and the percentage of cremation residue is thus higher. According to a document from the British Environment Agency referred to by MGK (Environment Agency North West Region Area. Extracts from Submission to Cumbria County Council’s Inquiry into the Foot and Mouth Crisis), section 5.2.4 on page 13), a typical pyre for 300 cows at the time of the British Foot & Mouth Disease Crisis in 2001 could leave 15 tons of carcass ash and 45 tons of other ash to be disposed of. Assuming that each cow weighed 500 kg (as is done in the article CBA of Foot and Mouth Disease Control Strategies: Environmental Impacts by Paul Watkiss and Alison Smith, footnote 7 on page 4), the original weight of carcasses burned on such a pyre was 150 tons, i.e. the carcass ash amounted to 10 % of the original carcass weight. I therefore considered a corpse residue factor of 10 % instead of MGK’s 5 %. Note that this assumption, besides being based on empirical data from cremation under comparable circumstances, leads to a much lower life or pre-cremation weight corresponding to a given weight of cremation remains than the residue percentage considered by MGK, and therefore to a lower number of corpses whose cremation is considered to have produced these cremation remains.

(h) = (f)÷(g) * 1,000 = Pre-cremation weight of cremated corpses (kg): Dividing the cremation residue weight in columns (f) by the corpse residue factor in column (g), one obtains the pre-cremation weight of fresh corpses in metric tons. Multiplying the result of this division by 1,000 yields the same corpses’ weight in kg.

(i) = Average weight of corpse (kg):

The average life weight of a deportee murdered at Chełmno extermination camp was calculated as being 34 kg, see the blogs Mattogno on Chełmno Cremation (Part 2) and Belzec Mass Graves and Archaeology: My Response to Carlo Mattogno (4,1). In these blogs I also explain why the average weight considered by Mattogno in his Chełmno book (45 kg) is too high.

(j) = (h)÷(i) = Number of corpses reduced to cremation remains: The number that results from dividing the total pre-cremation weight of the corpses in column (h) by the average weight of corpses in column (i). As no whole corpses in the Chełmno mass graves have been reported, this is also the total number of victims whose remains can be proven to currently lie in the mass graves at Chełmno.

The numbers are the following:

Grave #_Number of victims whose remains currently lie in grave
1_4,445
2_19,610
3_15,353
4_20,074
5_60,235
Total_119,717

Grave # 3 is the grave referred to as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 on the webpage under http://www.vnnforum.com/showpost.php?p= ... count=2629" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (it reads "3/35" there but the author obviously meant to say "3/36").

This grave has been proven to contain the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies. It has thus been proven to contain the remains of at least 19 bodies.


Closing statement:

The preceding information was presented as proof that alleged - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - contains the remains of at least 19 bodies in my attempt to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave.

Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof. Michael Shermer can explicitly and legally endorse said posted proof by contacting, via email, Greg Gerdes, President of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM (Contact information can be found at the bottom of their website: http://www.nafcash.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and making the following statement to Greg Gerdes:

I, Michael Shermer, acting as sole appointed arbiter of - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM, do hereby explicitly and legally certify that I categorically endorse the information in - Roberto Muehlenkamp's - My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs - thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting my own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof, and that - Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 - does in fact contain the remains of at least 19 bodies. Furthermore, I will publish this certification / endorsement in the next issue of Skeptic Magazine.

(Note: What is to be explicitly and legally certified / endorsed by Michael Shermer is not just all the information that is sandwiched between my opening and closing statements, but also my answers to - The N.A.F.H.’s - C.S.I. / Alleged “Mass Graves” Questionnaire - for this alleged mass grave. (Said questionnaire can be found here: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6927" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

And my answers for this alleged mass grave are: the answers linked to here (Page 2).
It's been at least two months since Roberto Muehlenkamp shredded Holocaust Denial by publishing this incontrovertible proof that there is a mass grave at Chelmno that contains the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies.

Unfortunately, other commitments have prevented me from regularly participating in this forum so perhaps I missed it but I can't seem to find Michael Shermer's published endorsement of Roberto's findings. I know that Roberto did not specifically say that Michael Shermer needs to respond in this forum for his endorsement to be legally binding. So I will concede that there is a chance that Michael Shermer published his explicit endorsement in Skeptic Magazine or Scientific American, or maybe even in one of the scholarly journals devoted to Holocaust and Genocide Studies.

I've checked those two consumer publications and couldn't find Michael Shermer addressing this at anytime during the last four years. Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to academic journals. If any of you professional historian types do, could you do me a favor and look to see if Michael Shermer is on the record as explicitly endorsing the information in Roberto Muehlenkamp's "My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs" thread on the Skeptics Society’s forum, as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof? Or is Michael Shermer still refusing to make himself and the whole skeptic movement look like a bunch of morons by endorsing Roberto's silly findings?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:14 am

Mary Q Contrary, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Unfortunately, other commitments have prevented me from regularly participating in this forum.......
.....yet, here your are, posting away. :lol:

Mary Q Contrary, the lying holocaust denier wrote: I can't seem to find Michael Shermer's published endorsement of Roberto's findings. I know that Roberto did not specifically say that Michael Shermer needs to respond
So why bring it up? :lol:

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:42 am

MQC debuted with a first post in this thread... Is it time to say good-bye?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Denying-History » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:13 am

Lol two years ago as well.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary, the lying holocaust denier wrote:Unfortunately, other commitments have prevented me from regularly participating in this forum.......
.....yet, here your are, posting away. :lol:

Mary Q Contrary, the lying holocaust denier wrote: I can't seem to find Michael Shermer's published endorsement of Roberto's findings. I know that Roberto did not specifically say that Michael Shermer needs to respond
So why bring it up? :lol:
It's an annual tradition :lol: :lol:
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:48 am

Mary Q Contrary, the holocaust denier wrote: It's an annual tradition :lol: :lol:
So making yourself look like a complete idiot is an annual event?

I thought it was every time you posted.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:28 am

ROFL
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:07 pm

Could someone help me out here? I'm a bit confused about the number of graves at Chelmno. The nafca site says 15, but here I see only 5. Or have only 5 out of the 15 been excavated? Or is there actually a different number of graves? Thanks for any help you can give.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:38 pm

OK, I think I found out the answer to my own question. The number of "alleged" graves has increased since Mr. Muehlenkamp made his original post. Which leads me to my next question. Has anyone proven that the other 10 graves exist as well?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:09 pm

Citation?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:02 pm

This is a bit out of date:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

Is there something else out there showing additional excavations?
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:15 pm

more complete view of same

condensed version on museum website

Neither Montague nor Krakowski devotes much coverage to mass graves and/or excavations.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:41 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:This is a bit out of date:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

Is there something else out there showing additional excavations?
OK, I think I have it figured out now. One of the original 5 graves is actually comprised of 11 smaller graves that are located in a row spaced very close to each other. So 11 + 4 = 15. Thanks Jeff.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:56 pm

So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:18 pm

WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp is using the information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak to prove the existence of five mass graves.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.

Edited to clear up confusing language.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

WendyO
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:40 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp did not actually prove anything, he is utilizing information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.
Didn't prove anything? Really?

Now I'm really confused.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:51 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp did not actually prove anything, he is utilizing information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.
Didn't prove anything? Really?

Now I'm really confused.
I'm not sure where you are confused. Mr. Muhlenkamp did not go out and dig up those sites himself. What he did is use information provided by the archeologist to show that mass graves were found at the Chelmno site.

Perhaps my wording was confusing, if so, I apologize.

What is not disputed is that archeological digs found graves filled with ash and crushed bone. In addition, one of the graves found contained a caustic substance that destroyed gloves. It is possibly quicklime used in early attempts to dispose of the bodies.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:00 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp is using the information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak to prove the existence of five mass graves.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.

Edited to clear up confusing language.
I edited to clear this up.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:04 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp did not actually prove anything, he is utilizing information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.
Didn't prove anything? Really?

Now I'm really confused.
I'm not sure where you are confused. Mr. Muhlenkamp did not go out and dig up those sites himself. What he did is use information provided by the archeologist to show that mass graves were found at the Chelmno site.

Perhaps my wording was confusing, if so, I apologize.

What is not disputed is that archeological digs found graves filled with ash and crushed bone. In addition, one of the graves found contained a caustic substance that destroyed gloves. It is possibly quicklime used in early attempts to dispose of the bodies.
If it is not disputed, then why does this thread even exist?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:05 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp is using the information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak to prove the existence of five mass graves.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.

Edited to clear up confusing language.
I edited to clear this up.
Only 5 and not all 15?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:14 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp is using the information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak to prove the existence of five mass graves.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.

Edited to clear up confusing language.
I edited to clear this up.
Only 5 and not all 15?
What, exactly, are you questioning?

You just stated that several of the smaller graves are included as one large grave:
WendyO wrote: OK, I think I have it figured out now. One of the original 5 graves is actually comprised of 11 smaller graves that are located in a row spaced very close to each other. So 11 + 4 = 15.
So, would you prefer I said 11 small graves located close together and 4 large graves? Does it matter?
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:29 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
Mr. Muehlenkamp is using the information provided by Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak to prove the existence of five mass graves.

Please see this site for more information:
http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm#

BTW, welcome to the forum. We enjoy new ideas and new people.

Edited to clear up confusing language.
I edited to clear this up.
Only 5 and not all 15?
What, exactly, are you questioning?

You just stated that several of the smaller graves are included as one large grave:
WendyO wrote: OK, I think I have it figured out now. One of the original 5 graves is actually comprised of 11 smaller graves that are located in a row spaced very close to each other. So 11 + 4 = 15.
So, would you prefer I said 11 small graves located close together and 4 large graves? Does it matter?
I'm sorry if I'm sounding difficult here Jeff, but I want to have a very clear understanding about what has been proven at Chelmno. I'm not sure if all 11 of the smaller graves that were once called a single grave have been proven to contain remains. I'm sure that at least one has, but have they all?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:01 am

So, I held my nose and actually looked at both nafcash and the HH Chelmno by Mattogno. This breaks my longstanding vow NOT to ever read or even look at another "Holocaust Handbook."

What is of some interest is the map found on page 168:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/23-c.pdf


Per Muehlenkamp (see link above):
"The fifth grave: It is not one single grave but rather a line of pits filled with ashes. The total length of these 11 pits, located 2-3 m from one another, equals 161 m. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts crushed. The archaeologist refers to judge Bednarz, according to whom the depth of the pits was about 4 m and their width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface."

So, this is the series of smaller pits described by WendyO. Basically these are the 11 pits which equal the "fifth grave."
These pits are filled crushed human bones and burn waste.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:57 am

Hey Jeffk, if I have some questions in the coming week, will look up stuff for me?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:05 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Hey Jeffk, if I have some questions in the coming week, will look up stuff for me?
Sure, let me know what you need.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:21 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, I held my nose and actually looked at both nafcash and the HH Chelmno by Mattogno. This breaks my longstanding vow NOT to ever read or even look at another "Holocaust Handbook."

What is of some interest is the map found on page 168:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/23-c.pdf


Per Muehlenkamp (see link above):
"The fifth grave: It is not one single grave but rather a line of pits filled with ashes. The total length of these 11 pits, located 2-3 m from one another, equals 161 m. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts crushed. The archaeologist refers to judge Bednarz, according to whom the depth of the pits was about 4 m and their width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface."

So, this is the series of smaller pits described by WendyO. Basically these are the 11 pits which equal the "fifth grave."
These pits are filled crushed human bones and burn waste.
Jeff, I'd like to thank you for all your time and effort, but I cannot say, based on what I just read and saw in the link you directed me to, that those graves have been proven to be filled with crushed human bone and burn waste. Do these graves exist only because years ago some judge named Bednarz said they do? Or am I missing something here?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by scrmbldggs » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:39 am

.
Lard, save me from your followers.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:42 am

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:So, I held my nose and actually looked at both nafcash and the HH Chelmno by Mattogno. This breaks my longstanding vow NOT to ever read or even look at another "Holocaust Handbook."

What is of some interest is the map found on page 168:
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/23-c.pdf


Per Muehlenkamp (see link above):
"The fifth grave: It is not one single grave but rather a line of pits filled with ashes. The total length of these 11 pits, located 2-3 m from one another, equals 161 m. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts crushed. The archaeologist refers to judge Bednarz, according to whom the depth of the pits was about 4 m and their width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface."

So, this is the series of smaller pits described by WendyO. Basically these are the 11 pits which equal the "fifth grave."
These pits are filled crushed human bones and burn waste.
Jeff, I'd like to thank you for all your time and effort, but I cannot say, based on what I just read and saw in the link you directed me to, that those graves have been proven to be filled with crushed human bone and burn waste.
Do these graves exist only because years ago some judge named Bednarz said they do? Or am I missing something here?
No, this is what the archeologists found.

I'm not sure how much clearer this can be.

What we have are three converging points that show this was an extermination camp:

What the archeologists found.

Documents pertaining to gas vans:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150325081 ... zialwagen/

Witness statements:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... s.html?m=1

There is more, of course, but that's enough to start with.

I'm not sure where you are coming from, WendyO. Maybe you could be clearer? Are you disputing graves? The camp's function? Please, let me know.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:18 am

Never saw that coming . . . ! Wow!
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