My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:12 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, thanks for all your time, but I have to call it a night. I'd like to leave you with one question: Did Mr. Muehlenkamp prove that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 contains the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies and at least 52.20 metric tons of human remains?
Sure. His calculations look fine to me.

Keep in mind, none of this is in dispute for me. This is history, the fact is those graves and their contents are expected based upon what we know about this camp.
And here we see the blurring of academia and religious dogma so common among "scholars" of the Holocaust. They don't start with the evidence and then let it lead them to the truth. They start with The Truth (none of which is in dispute, according to Jeffk) and then they find the support for The Truth.

The Truth, in this case, is that they know the Chelmno death toll is X. Because one of the things they know about Chelmno is that the death toll is X, they reasonably expect to find graves and remains that are commensurate with that death toll. Because they found physical evidence of people having died at Chelmno, and because the expected death toll at Chelmno is X, they are certain beyond doubt that they have found evidence of X people being murdered at the camp. It doesn't matter if they found seventy thousand bodies in one mass grave or if they found an old shoe. They found what they expected to find.

To an unbiased scholar, finding an old shoe isn't evidence of X number of people having died at the camp. Finding mass graves holding one one thousandth of X doesn't prove that X number of people died at the camp. But to the Holocaust "scholar", for whom the number of bodies isn't in dispute, they see what they expect to see.

In the world of Holocaust scholarship, hey don't even need to find evidence of mass graves at all to prove the number of victims. Because the Germans are known to have destroyed all the evidence of mass graves, they wouldn't expect to find any evidence of any bodies. And they can't look for any evidence because Jewish law forbids the disturbing of human remains. But because the number of victims isn't in dispute, they know those remains are buried there anyway.

Now, addressing how they first discovered the fact that there are the remains of X victims under the earth at Chelmno, they know because Judge Budnards (or something like that) said there were 350,000 victims in 1945 and the Kraut judiciary in the 1960s said anything below 170,000 is unacceptable. Based upon these estimates (which are not in dispute by Jeffk), they naturally expect to find mass graves commensurate with those estimates. So they have now identified mass graves which contain the expected number of victims. So now the discovery of the mass graves supports the number of victims. The number of proven victims proves mass graves large enough to hold that number of victims and the number of victims proves the number and size of the mass graves which proves the number of victims which proves the size of the mass graves and so on and so on and so on in the wonderfully circular logic of Holocaust "scholarship."
:lol:

I'm starting to think Wendy and Mary are the same person.

No, Mary. It doesn't work like that.

What I know is this:

The Germans transported around 150,000 Jews to Chelmno. We have no exit destinations for them. We have documents and eyewitness statements detailing what happened to them, including detailing the mass graves the Germans piled those bodies into after relieving them of their stuff (the Germans didn't like the Jews but didn't mind taking their clothes and other valuables. Waste not, want not, right?). We also know that Chelmno served as an experimental camp where Blobel used different methods to destroy bodies. The Germans dumped the ash and bone fragments back into the graves, later either selling it for fertilizer or tossing it into the river.
So, yes, I'd expect to find those graves there based on converging points of evidence.
Want to convince me otherwise? Then give me proof of where those Jews went if the Germans didn't kill them.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:16 pm

So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth? You made use of empirical studies and testimonies? There's evidence you learned of that discusses the mass burials? You drew conclusions about mass graves from such evidence? You supplemented those conclusions with the findings from physical examinations of the area? I am shocked!
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:27 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth? You made use of empirical studies and testimonies? There's evidence you learned of that discusses the mass burials? You drew conclusions about mass graves from such evidence? You supplemented those conclusions with the findings from physical examinations of the area? I am shocked!
Yeah, sorry about that. I know that disappoints Mary and Wendy.

:lol:
:lol:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


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“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:37 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:. . . that disappoints Mary and Wendy.

:lol:
:lol:
both/either/all the same
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:04 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.
Stat Mech is mocking you.
By posting questions he's too afraid to answer, he's mocking himself.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:06 am

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.
Stat Mech is mocking you.
By posting questions he's too afraid to answer, he's mocking himself.
Nah, he's mocking you.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:31 am

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
All of them. Recall from Roberto's opening statement: "It can therefore, in my opinion, be considered proof of the numbers of human cremation remains and corresponding numbers of whole corpses stated therein, according to the standards of proof that would be applied by a German court of law, whereby a reasonable estimated minimum quantity is considered the (maximum) quantity that can be proven, even if there are good reasons to assume that the actual quantity is higher."
So Mr. M claims to have proven all the graves at Chelmno by the standards of German courts, but he's afraid to accept The N.A.F.H. Challenge to pursue his case in American courts? Why is he so afraid to try and prove his Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 proofs beyond reasonable doubt in an American court of law? But I'm sure he knows what would happen, just like all the trolls on this thread know what would happen. That's why they are so afraid to keep any debate on the subject on the grave in question. Not a one of them really believes that Chelmno grave# 3 / 36 contains 52.20 metric tons of crushed human bone like Mr. M falsely and deceivingly claims. They just don't have the you-know-what's to admit it.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:33 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.
Stat Mech is mocking you.
By posting questions he's too afraid to answer, he's mocking himself.
Nah, he's mocking you.
Nah, he's mocking himself.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:59 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Oh goodie, let's have a long and fruitless semantic debate about what "proof" means! Yay!
On this thread, Mr. M asked, and then begged in a private email, Dr. Shermer to accept his presented evidence as not only proof, but that which met the same standard of proof held by Dr. Shermer himself, The Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine. Are you afraid to use that standard proof while trying to determine how many metric tons of crushed human bones are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:10 am

WendyO wrote: On this thread, Mr. M asked, and then begged in a private email, Dr. Shermer to ........
Soooo...... Greg Gerdes first fabricated "a Challenge", open to anyone from public, with Michael Shermer as judge, but never bothered to contact Michael Shermer. Then Roberto tried to correct Greg Gerdes deceitful challenge by contacting Michael Shermer.

Have you sent Roberto a thank you card for attempting to fix the deceitful behaviour of Greg Gerdes, your fellow holocaust denier?
:lol:

How are you going with your alternative hypothesis regarding Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence?

Don't be shy about being a holocaust denier. You should tell everyone you meet. :lol:

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:How are you going with your alternative hypothesis regarding Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence?
Your're afraid to apply Dr. Shermers, The Skeptics Society's and Skeptic Magazine's standard of proof to Mr. M's deceitful presentation, aren't you Stat Mech? Please tell us what you're so afraid of.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:49 am

WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:How are you going with your alternative hypothesis regarding Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence?
Your're afraid to apply Dr. Shermers, The Skeptics Society's and Skeptic Magazine's standard of proof to Mr. M's deceitful presentation, aren't you Stat Mech? Please tell us what you're so afraid of.

That's actually Matthew Ellard. I'm not sure how you confused them.
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:51 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:How are you going with your alternative hypothesis regarding Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence?
WendyO wrote:Your're afraid to apply Dr. Shermers, The Skeptics Society's and Skeptic Magazine's standard of proof to Mr. M's deceitful presentation, aren't you Stat Mech? Please tell us what you're so afraid of.
1) Michael Shermer has never stated what his standard level of proof was, in this matter, because your moronic holocaust denying friend, Greg Gerdes never contacted him, to ask what it was. :lol:

2) I'm Matthew Ellard and not Statistical Mechanic. :lol:

3) You failed to thank Roberto for correcting Greg Gerde's deceitful challenge, by trying to make contact with Michael Shermer after Greg Gerdes claimed Michael Shermer was the judge.

Your'e not very bright are you? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:54 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: That's actually Matthew Ellard. I'm not sure how you confused them.
I think Wendy O is a bit "intellectually challenged". :lol:

I even tried to colour code my posts for Wendy.......but to no avail!

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:03 am

WendyO wrote: So Mr. M claims to have proven all the graves at Chelmno by the standards of German courts, but he's afraid to accept The N.A.F.H. Challenge to pursue his case in American courts? Why is he so afraid to try and prove his Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 proofs beyond reasonable doubt in an American court of law?
Well, did Mr. Gerdes actually contact Mr. Shermer to have him agree to judge this? Or find someone else to do it?
WendyO wrote: But I'm sure he knows what would happen,
That he would be wasting his time because Mr. Shermer knows nothing about this?
Or that Greg Gerdes doesn't have the money?
WendyO wrote: just like all the trolls on this thread know what would happen.
That seems a tad unfair. I think you are the troll, we were here first. You popped up out of nowhere. Are you some sort of ghost from deniers past, coming back to haunt us again? Are you a sock puppet of someone that is banned?
WendyO wrote: That's why they are so afraid to keep any debate on the subject on the grave in question.
What "debate?"
WendyO wrote: Not a one of them really believes that Chelmno grave# 3 / 36 contains 52.20 metric tons of crushed human bone like Mr. M falsely and deceivingly claims. They just don't have the you-know-what's to admit it.
You know what's?
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:06 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote: That's actually Matthew Ellard. I'm not sure how you confused them.
I think Wendy O is a bit "intellectually challenged". :lol:

I even tried to colour code my posts for Wendy.......but to no avail!
:lol:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:18 am

Question for Groening by a reporter:
“Mr. Groening, what do you say to those who still deny the Holocaust?”

Groening:
“Nothing. They are hopelessly lost.”


Harvard Crimson (on why it refused to run an add by Bradley Smith):
“(It is) vicious propaganda based on utter BS that has been discredited time and time again.”

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:20 am

The National Association of Forensic Historians (TM)
http://www.nafcash.com/

Wendy O, When you email Greg Gerdes, can you ask him the trademark registration number for The National Association of Forensic Historians. It doesn't appear to be registered.

Unless of course, Greg Gerdes was also lying about that.
:lol:

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:26 pm

WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:How are you going with your alternative hypothesis regarding Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence?
Your're afraid to apply Dr. Shermers, The Skeptics Society's and Skeptic Magazine's standard of proof to Mr. M's deceitful presentation, aren't you Stat Mech? Please tell us what you're so afraid of.
I haven't a clue a) why you're quoting Matthew Ellard to introduce a question to me and b) what is the standard of proof you're bringing up, if in fact your question does have something to do with me.

To help you on a) Matthew Ellard posts in dark blue. Even morons like David are usually able to distinguish Matthew's posts. If you try hard, you may raise your game to moron level. Look for the dark blue type - then think "Matthew Ellard." Then type "Matthew," not "Statistical Mechanic."

As to b) generally Shermer advocates an approach involving consilience of inductions and convergent evidence, which Jeffk has already explained using in his effort to understand Chełmno. Is that what you mean? To my knowledge, Shermer didn't agree to play any role in this and, in fact, explained that he'd not researched the issues in years. I do not believe he articulated any particular standard of proof for Gerdes' silly contest. But perhaps you can tell me, or Matthew Ellard, or whomever, where to find the standard of proof you're talking about, if it does not involve consilience of inductions or convergent evidence.

Here's an idea. Tell us how Roberto's presentation, in your view, is deceitful and why you reject it. Focus, just for giggles, on what it says about events at Chełmno, instead of Greg Gerdes' contest, in which I personally have zero interest.

Have you answered the questions I asked, btw, here and here. Might be good to do so before you start calling people cowards and stuff.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:04 pm

Nessie wrote:
WendyO wrote:.....
No thanks Jeff, I don't want posts, I want proof.

Tell me Jeff, do you have the you-know-what's to admit Mr. M's presentation does not constitute proof?

If you really do believe it is proof, then by what standard of proof do you call it?
You ran away from answering my questions about proof. So you clear do not have the you-know-whats.
I'll answer any questions you have that are directly related to Chelmno grave # 3 / 36, if you have the you-know-whats to keep to the subject at hand.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:15 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then deniers will just challenge the results or, becoming sudden technical experts, they will decry issues with GPR in general. Further physical studies of sites are certainly welcome but not to shut deniers up - because they won't - rather to clarify and refine what the totality of the evidence about these sites tells us. But far more interesting and necessary is further explication of the role of Chelmno in how the Warthegau was governed, the roles ascribed population groups there, responses of Poles and Jews to German rule in the region, and how events in the Warthegau figured in the development of the Final Solution.
Yeah! If somebody conducted investigations using GPR and concluded that there were mass graves, they would probably go have the results published somewhere and then everybody could look at their methodology and their conclusions and all that. Then somebody might notice something they thought might be wrong in the study. Then they would go off and do another investigation that contradicted the first investigation and then they would get those results published somewhere. Then somebody else might notice something about the second investigation they thought was weird. Then they would go off and do a third investigation and get that published somewhere and everybody would be able to read the results of the third investigation and how the study was conducted and all that and then go off and do yet another investigation. What kind of a crackpot system is that? How are we ever going to achieve certainty if anybody can read something that somebody publishes and challenge it? History by the judiciary is the only way to go. Without Judges deciding the truth, anarchy will reign!
I like your sarcasm Mary, and your comments about GPR. And thank you for your input here. I would like to ask you a question and I am being serious: Do you believe Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to actually exist?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:20 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, thanks for all your time, but I have to call it a night. I'd like to leave you with one question: Did Mr. Muehlenkamp prove that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 contains the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies and at least 52.20 metric tons of human remains?
Sure. His calculations look fine to me.

Keep in mind, none of this is in dispute for me. This is history, the fact is those graves and their contents are expected based upon what we know about this camp.
And here we see the blurring of academia and religious dogma so common among "scholars" of the Holocaust. They don't start with the evidence and then let it lead them to the truth. They start with The Truth (none of which is in dispute, according to Jeffk) and then they find the support for The Truth.

The Truth, in this case, is that they know the Chelmno death toll is X. Because one of the things they know about Chelmno is that the death toll is X, they reasonably expect to find graves and remains that are commensurate with that death toll. Because they found physical evidence of people having died at Chelmno, and because the expected death toll at Chelmno is X, they are certain beyond doubt that they have found evidence of X people being murdered at the camp. It doesn't matter if they found seventy thousand bodies in one mass grave or if they found an old shoe. They found what they expected to find.

To an unbiased scholar, finding an old shoe isn't evidence of X number of people having died at the camp. Finding mass graves holding one one thousandth of X doesn't prove that X number of people died at the camp. But to the Holocaust "scholar", for whom the number of bodies isn't in dispute, they see what they expect to see.

In the world of Holocaust scholarship, hey don't even need to find evidence of mass graves at all to prove the number of victims. Because the Germans are known to have destroyed all the evidence of mass graves, they wouldn't expect to find any evidence of any bodies. And they can't look for any evidence because Jewish law forbids the disturbing of human remains. But because the number of victims isn't in dispute, they know those remains are buried there anyway.

Now, addressing how they first discovered the fact that there are the remains of X victims under the earth at Chelmno, they know because Judge Budnards (or something like that) said there were 350,000 victims in 1945 and the Kraut judiciary in the 1960s said anything below 170,000 is unacceptable. Based upon these estimates (which are not in dispute by Jeffk), they naturally expect to find mass graves commensurate with those estimates. So they have now identified mass graves which contain the expected number of victims. So now the discovery of the mass graves supports the number of victims. The number of proven victims proves mass graves large enough to hold that number of victims and the number of victims proves the number and size of the mass graves which proves the number of victims which proves the size of the mass graves and so on and so on and so on in the wonderfully circular logic of Holocaust "scholarship."
What I think you are saying Mary, is the trolls on this thread (the real deniers), have a need to believe what they think they see, and it is really a faith based belief rather than a belief based on science or any kind of skeptics society standard of proof. It's why they are all so afraid to simply discuss Chelmno grave # 3 / 36, even though it is the subject of this thread.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:22 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then deniers will just challenge the results or, becoming sudden technical experts, they will decry issues with GPR in general. Further physical studies of sites are certainly welcome but not to shut deniers up - because they won't - rather to clarify and refine what the totality of the evidence about these sites tells us. But far more interesting and necessary is further explication of the role of Chelmno in how the Warthegau was governed, the roles ascribed population groups there, responses of Poles and Jews to German rule in the region, and how events in the Warthegau figured in the development of the Final Solution.
Yeah! If somebody conducted investigations using GPR and concluded that there were mass graves, they would probably go have the results published somewhere and then everybody could look at their methodology and their conclusions and all that. Then somebody might notice something they thought might be wrong in the study. Then they would go off and do another investigation that contradicted the first investigation and then they would get those results published somewhere. Then somebody else might notice something about the second investigation they thought was weird. Then they would go off and do a third investigation and get that published somewhere and everybody would be able to read the results of the third investigation and how the study was conducted and all that and then go off and do yet another investigation. What kind of a crackpot system is that? How are we ever going to achieve certainty if anybody can read something that somebody publishes and challenge it? History by the judiciary is the only way to go. Without Judges deciding the truth, anarchy will reign!
It's a game of bait and switch when people like you insist that GPR or whatever can resolve an issue, then when GPR or whatever is used, you guys suddenly develop an allergy to GPR or whatever.

Where's Krege's stuff, speaking of publishing results for comment and debate?
Why are you trying to switch the subject to Treblinka, when the subject of this thread is Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Why are you so afraid to discuss the subject at hand?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:24 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?
Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:36 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:As to b) generally Shermer advocates an approach involving consilience of inductions and convergent evidence, which Jeffk has already explained using in his effort to understand Chełmno. Is that what you mean? To my knowledge, Shermer didn't agree to play any role in this and, in fact, explained that he'd not researched the issues in years. I do not believe he articulated any particular standard of proof for Gerdes' silly contest. But perhaps you can tell me, or Matthew Ellard, or whomever, where to find the standard of proof you're talking about, if it does not involve consilience of inductions or convergent evidence.
Did Mr. M's presented proof meet the standard of proof held by Dr. S himself, the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine?

Mr. M submitted 18 proofs (17 of which were not eligible for the N.A.F.H. reward he was pretending to honestly try to earn, thus deceiving Dr. S and all those who read his posts); how many of them meet the standard of proof held by Dr. S himself, the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine?

Why do you think Mr. M left the following out of his presentations when he knew doing so would render his presentation ineligible for a reward?

"FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof."

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:05 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:As to b) generally Shermer advocates an approach involving consilience of inductions and convergent evidence, which Jeffk has already explained using in his effort to understand Chełmno. Is that what you mean? To my knowledge, Shermer didn't agree to play any role in this and, in fact, explained that he'd not researched the issues in years. I do not believe he articulated any particular standard of proof for Gerdes' silly contest. But perhaps you can tell me, or Matthew Ellard, or whomever, where to find the standard of proof you're talking about, if it does not involve consilience of inductions or convergent evidence.
Did Mr. M's presented proof meet the standard of proof held by Dr. S himself, the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine?

Mr. M submitted 18 proofs (17 of which were not eligible for the N.A.F.H. reward he was pretending to honestly try to earn, thus deceiving Dr. S and all those who read his posts); how many of them meet the standard of proof held by Dr. S himself, the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine?

Why do you think Mr. M left the following out of his presentations when he knew doing so would render his presentation ineligible for a reward?

"FYI - This is my __?__ “buried remains / mass grave proof” submitted to Michael Shermer for his endorsement. To date, __?__ of my submittals have been deemed ineligible for a reward due to my noncompliance with the official posting rules that I received from the N.A.F.H. prior to posting my alleged “proofs.” Regardless of eligibility status, __?__ of my submittals have been endorsed by Michael Shermer as meeting his own, Skeptic Magazine’s and the Skeptics Society’s expressed and implied standards of proof."
Stop screwing around with my name, got it?

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass, as I told you, about Gerdes' contest and its rules. You seem to be afraid to answer substantive questions about Chełmno.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:09 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:The National Association of Forensic Historians (TM)
http://www.nafcash.com/

Wendy O, When you email Greg Gerdes, can you ask him the trademark registration number for The National Association of Forensic Historians. It doesn't appear to be registered.

Unless of course, Greg Gerdes was also lying about that.
:lol:
I did Matthew, and he sent me this:

https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/register.jsp

So your attempt to make Mr. G out as a liar failed Matthew. BTW, I'm learning all kinds of interesting things from Mr. G. Things that prove just how deceptive Mr. M has been and what a liar you are. Thank you for insisting that I contact him. I guess you count on the fact that most people wont take the time to investigate your statements designed to discredit Mr. G and nafh. But Mr. G is being a great help in providing me with the information I need to cut through all your BS. I think I'm going to have fun showing who the real liars are on this thread.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:09 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then deniers will just challenge the results or, becoming sudden technical experts, they will decry issues with GPR in general. Further physical studies of sites are certainly welcome but not to shut deniers up - because they won't - rather to clarify and refine what the totality of the evidence about these sites tells us. But far more interesting and necessary is further explication of the role of Chelmno in how the Warthegau was governed, the roles ascribed population groups there, responses of Poles and Jews to German rule in the region, and how events in the Warthegau figured in the development of the Final Solution.
Yeah! If somebody conducted investigations using GPR and concluded that there were mass graves, they would probably go have the results published somewhere and then everybody could look at their methodology and their conclusions and all that. Then somebody might notice something they thought might be wrong in the study. Then they would go off and do another investigation that contradicted the first investigation and then they would get those results published somewhere. Then somebody else might notice something about the second investigation they thought was weird. Then they would go off and do a third investigation and get that published somewhere and everybody would be able to read the results of the third investigation and how the study was conducted and all that and then go off and do yet another investigation. What kind of a crackpot system is that? How are we ever going to achieve certainty if anybody can read something that somebody publishes and challenge it? History by the judiciary is the only way to go. Without Judges deciding the truth, anarchy will reign!
It's a game of bait and switch when people like you insist that GPR or whatever can resolve an issue, then when GPR or whatever is used, you guys suddenly develop an allergy to GPR or whatever.

Where's Krege's stuff, speaking of publishing results for comment and debate?
Why are you trying to switch the subject to Treblinka, when the subject of this thread is Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Why are you so afraid to discuss the subject at hand?
I'm not trying to switch the subject to Treblinka but rather to stick with the question of GPR, in reply to Mary's pointless point missing post.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:10 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:So you didn't start from a religious-dogmatic premise about Truth?
Yes he did. Jeff's knowledge is faith based, not science based.
Pray tell how so.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:16 pm

WendyO wrote:. . . But Mr. G is being a great help in providing me with the information I need to cut through all your BS. I think I'm going to have fun showing who the real liars are on this thread.
This oughta be good. When do you start posting these gems? So far you've ignored everything you've been asked, been utterly unresponsive to what Jeffk has posted, and run on like a small-town barrister about Gerdes' rules. Pretty effin'' boring and pretty effin' pathetic.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:23 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, thanks for all your time, but I have to call it a night. I'd like to leave you with one question: Did Mr. Muehlenkamp prove that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 contains the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies and at least 52.20 metric tons of human remains?
Sure. His calculations look fine to me.

...

So, yes, I'd expect to find those graves there based on converging points of evidence.
The question wasn't about Mr. M's "calculations" or what you would "expect" to find at Chelmno (if the official claims are correct) and you know it Jeff. Why are you trying to deceive yourself? Everyone can see the game you are playing. Are you afraid your faith in the H is going to be shook to its foundation if you admit the truth that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never even been proven to exist, much less contain at least 52.20 metric tons of crushed human bone? Your afraid to answer my simple questions because you know it will lead you to the truth. And that is a truth that you are afraid to confront. What kind of skeptic are you Jeff?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Come on Jeff, don't be afraid to answer our questions.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:30 pm

WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:
WendyO wrote:.....
No thanks Jeff, I don't want posts, I want proof.

Tell me Jeff, do you have the you-know-what's to admit Mr. M's presentation does not constitute proof?

If you really do believe it is proof, then by what standard of proof do you call it?
You ran away from answering my questions about proof. So you clear do not have the you-know-whats.
I'll answer any questions you have that are directly related to Chelmno grave # 3 / 36, if you have the you-know-whats to keep to the subject at hand.
You respond to questions about Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 that it is unevidenced, or words to that effect. What is that you need as evidence of the existence of the grave? Please go into some detail in your reply.

A lot of work has been done at Chelmno, excavations, articles recovered, probing surveys to establish what is under the ground, including grave # 3 / 36. The conclusion is that burnt human remains are buried there. Are you saying that conclusion is wrong? If so, why?

http://www.muzeum.com.pl/en/chelmno.htm

"The third grave.
Located parallel to the forest wall. On the basis of probing surveys and drills, it was stated that it reaches the forest from the south (SE), insignificantly entering its area. It passes under the forest track, which during the war most likely in this part of the clearing ran along the then forest wall, situated further on than the present one. A stone wall (about 135 meters long), which was to determine the stretch of the grave, is narrower by 2 m than the actual width of the grave. Its total length equals 174 m, width about 8 m. The contents of the grave includes sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones."
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:36 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Don't be shy about being a holocaust denier. You should tell everyone you meet.
Not blindly accepting that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has been proven to exist and to contain at least 52.20 metric tons of crushed human bones makes me a holocaust denier? That sounds like the "logic" of a true-believer whose beliefs about Chelmno are faith based and not science based.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:37 pm

Nessie wrote:A lot of work has been done at Chelmno, excavations, articles recovered, probing surveys to establish what is under the ground, including grave # 3 / 36. The conclusion is that burnt human remains are buried there. Are you saying that conclusion is wrong? If so, why?
So far she's refused to state what she concludes from the work done at Chełmno.

Her substitute for providing an answer - she is really a chicken - is to repeat herself, ignore what's been posted, refuse to provide specifics, repeat herself again, play games with usernames, repeat herself again, make unfounded charges, post gibberish about science and faith, and repeat herself some more.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:38 pm

[quote="Nessie"]You respond to questions about Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 that it is unevidenced, or words to that effect. /quote]

Don't be so stupid Nessie.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:52 pm

WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You respond to questions about Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 that it is unevidenced, or words to that effect.
Don't be so stupid Nessie.
WendyO wrote:Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist.
What is that you need as evidence of the existence of the Chelmno grave # 3 / 36? Please go into some detail in your reply.

A lot of work has been done at Chelmno, excavations, articles recovered, probing surveys to establish what is under the ground, including grave # 3 / 36. The conclusion is that burnt human remains are buried there. Are you saying that conclusion is wrong? If so, why?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by scrmbldggs » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:15 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:A lot of work has been done at Chelmno, excavations, articles recovered, probing surveys to establish what is under the ground, including grave # 3 / 36. The conclusion is that burnt human remains are buried there. Are you saying that conclusion is wrong? If so, why?
So far she's refused to state what she concludes from the work done at Chełmno.

Her substitute for providing an answer - she is really a chicken - is to repeat herself, ignore what's been posted, refuse to provide specifics, repeat herself again, play games with usernames, repeat herself again, make unfounded charges, post gibberish about science and faith, and repeat herself some more.
Like s/he's downed a bottle of Superset...
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:04 pm

Lol

Judging from her posts, answering "why" questions and giving explanations are beyond her capacity.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:26 pm

My, this lit up a bit while I've been in training.

:lol:

I'll be back, I don't want WendyO to think I lack the you-know-whats to answer her.

:lol:
Question for Groening by a reporter:
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Groening:
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