My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:39 pm

WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:52 pm

WendyO wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Mary Q Contrary wrote:If Greg Gerdes is stupid for issuing a silly non existent challenge, what does it say about Roberto Muehlenkamp for taking the time and effort into answering it?
Roberto is educating interested members, like myself on evidence concerning the holocaust. It helps us understand the errors and lies of holocaust deniers. That's the entire point of this sub-forum.
If that is what Roberto intended then that is what Roberto should have done instead of playing along with--what you call--a "silly non existent challenge."
s

Is one playing along with a silly challenge by showing that it can be easily met and taking advantage of it to provide some information of interest? You've got some strange ideas, ma'am.
It was you who brought a challenge issued on a Nazi website to the attention of this forum. It was you who answered the challenge from said Nazi website on this forum. It was you who concluded your answer by saying "Michael Shermer now has 2 months from today - 15.06.2012 - to explicitly and legally certify that he endorses said posted proof." Your actions lead reasonable readers to conclude that you were participating in what you considered to be a legitimate contest and were attempting to, as you put it "to lay claim to - The National Association of Forensic Historians TM - N.A.F.H. - Crime Scene Investigation Challenge TM - $1,000.00 reward for said grave."

...
His actions were also very deceitful for not informing Dr. Shermer that he was not eligible for the reward and he begged Dr. Shermer to endorse his submittal in a private email. He's only calling the challenge silly now because Dr. Shermer rightly refused to endorse his false proof as real proof.
Fixed it for you Matthew.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:58 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:13 pm

You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:37 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
WendyO wrote:I sent Mr. Gerdes an email asking him to send me the rules for the reward challenge. That was it. Nothing back yet.
You already read the rules as you quoted the number of graves in "the rules".
I'm talking about the official posting rules Ponderer posted and that I quoted earlier. I want to see them for myself to make sure they were posted in their entirety with no alterations.
Last edited by WendyO on Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:40 pm

Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:52 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
WendyO wrote:If the presented proof needs to meet the standards of proof held by Mr. Shermer, The Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine, then who better to make the decision than Mr. Shermer himself? (Duh!)
Greg Gerdes never contacted Michael Shermer. Michael Shermer is continuously brought up as a sparring partner or judge, by idiots like David Cole, who think Mr Shermer is interested.
WendyO wrote: But I will do as you ask.
Step 1) Contact Gerdes and confirm he contacted Mr Shermer first, before making Mr Shermer "judge."
Step 2) Set out your own detailed alternative hypothesis for Chelmno, incorporating all the evidence,
Step 3) Report back to us when you complete steps 1 & 2.
I sent Mr. Gerdes an email asking him to send me the rules for the reward challenge. That was it. Nothing back yet.
Since you seem to be hooked into denier central, could you e-mail Richard Krege and let him know we are still waiting for his report on Treblinka? I mean, it's almost been 20 years. Time's a wastin'.

:lol:
I'm not interested in Treblinka, I'm interested in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36. Why don't you email him if you are so obsessed about his report? Time's a wastin' Jeff.
Why would I bother? The fact that he never released his results to the public says a lot, don't you think?

But, I thought, since you know Gerdes you could also contact Krege for us. I don't really know any of these denier sorts (except for the Rizolis) so I thought you could do us all a favor. Guess not.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:54 pm

WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:55 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.
Stat Mech is mocking you.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:08 pm

WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
On the contrary, thank you for admitting that Chelmno was a death camp where at least 145,301 Jews were murdered by gassing them in vans. It is refreshing to come across a denier who is prepared to accept they were wrong and the Holocaust of mass murdered by gassing and shooting took place.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:09 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
It is not a reading comprehension problem, WendyO is just a troll thinking she is being clever.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:12 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Let's re-state this in a Gerdesian manner:

1. Jeff, please tell me how many metric tons of crushed human Bones you can prove are currently in Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

2. Jeff, please tell me what the proven volume of Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 is.
Foe some reason, Jeff is afraid to answer our questions Stat Mech. I think it's because he knows Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 hasn't even been proven to exist, and he's afraid to admit it.
Stat Mech is mocking you.
WendyO is doing a very good job mocking herself and other deniers. I just want her questions numbered, as Gerdes would number them. To tidy things up.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:53 pm

The WendyOs of this debate should be encouraged as they do more damage to denialism than anything I could ever hope to achieve. It turned out to be way easier than I thought it would be to get denialists to say outrageous anti-Semtic and other comments and started a thread to record them;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25862&p=475993#p475993

So come on WendyO, keep dodging our questions and pretending you have not been linked to evidence of the existence of mass graves at the forest camp.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:29 pm

Nessie wrote:The WendyOs of this debate should be encouraged as they do more damage to denialism than anything I could ever hope to achieve. It turned out to be way easier than I thought it would be to get denialists to say outrageous anti-Semtic and other comments and started a thread to record them;

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=25862&p=475993#p475993

So come on WendyO, keep dodging our questions and pretending you have not been linked to evidence of the existence of mass graves at the forest camp.
Berg is a classic. He's kinda the gift that keeps giving.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:03 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:10 pm

WendyO must be great fun at a party. Or anywhere people gather.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:15 pm

Roberto Muehlenkamp wrote:
Ponderer wrote:Roberto Muehlenkamp has not been honest with Mr. Shermer.

I contacted the NAFH and learned that Muehlenkamp has not been complying with the NAFH's official posting rules and has been ineligible for 17 of the 18 reward submittals that he has posted here.
Hi there, chimp.

Who do you think you are fooling with your "Ponderer" alias, when you stink of Greg Gerdes miles away?

If you have again changed your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules, just send me the latest version to my e-mail address (you know which it is), and I'll post the next submission in compliance with the latest version of your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules next 15 September.

What are you waiting for?

As we're at it, I see that your "Anders" handle has been banned from VNN, where you had earlier been restricted to the "Tard Corral". Looks like even your fellow "White" specimens want to see nothing of you.
Mr. M did not deny his deceit in this post. But it looks like he was caught red handed, so there was nothing left for him to do but admit it.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:48 pm

Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:08 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.
My you know what?

What would you call a hole in the ground filled with ground bone and ash? A swimming pool?
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:46 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
That was my experience. The more questions I answered, the more Gerdes got worried I may complete the challenge, so he added more questions and would change the rules.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:53 pm

Nessie wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
That was my experience. The more questions I answered, the more Gerdes got worried I may complete the challenge, so he added more questions and would change the rules.
From what I remember there's always been doubt if Gerdes actually had the money to begin with.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:08 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
No he didn't. But then again, you see a nonexistent grave where none has been proven to exist.

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:11 pm

WendyO wrote:So now I have to ask:

How many Chelmno graves has Mr. Muehlenkamp proven then?
All of them. Recall from Roberto's opening statement: "It can therefore, in my opinion, be considered proof of the numbers of human cremation remains and corresponding numbers of whole corpses stated therein, according to the standards of proof that would be applied by a German court of law, whereby a reasonable estimated minimum quantity is considered the (maximum) quantity that can be proven, even if there are good reasons to assume that the actual quantity is higher."

The operative phrase is in bold face. The Germans understand that the experience of the Holocaust constitutes a special Jewish "self-understanding" which forms part of their human worth. This special self-understanding leads to a correlative duty on the part of Germans, that of respect. Because victimization is so important to the Jewish people's self-concept, German courts accept the truth of the Holocaust. German courts also refuse to accept any evidence that might contradict the accepted historiography.*

So you see, Roberto linked us to a picture on photobucket about the Holocaust. Information and facts which might contradict that picture cannot be considered. Ergo, the truth of that picture on photobucket has been proven.

*Holocaust Denial and the Law
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:12 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.
This is getting a little stale, WendyO.

Here, try some of these posts:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27369&start=80

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27457

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26535

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27590

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=31585&p=713843#p713843

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:14 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.
My you know what?

What would you call a hole in the ground filled with ground bone and ash? A swimming pool?
And what would the proven volume of this "hole in the ground" be Jeff?

And just how much crushed human bone has this "hole in the ground" been proven to currently contain?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:17 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
No he didn't. But then again, you see a nonexistent grave where none has been proven to exist.
You're wrong, simple as that.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:25 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.
This is getting a little stale, WendyO.

Here, try some of these posts:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27369&start=80

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27457

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26535

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27590

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177
No thanks Jeff, I don't want posts, I want proof.

Tell me Jeff, do you have the you-know-what's to admit Mr. M's presentation does not constitute proof?

If you really do believe it is proof, then by what standard of proof do you call it?

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by WendyO » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:33 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
No he didn't. But then again, you see a nonexistent grave where none has been proven to exist.
You're wrong, simple as that.
:lol:

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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:34 pm

WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Nessie wrote:You have been linked to evidence it does exist, twice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 has never been proven to exist. Now if Jeff only had the you-know-whats to do the same.
Look, it's not my fault you have a reading comprehension problem. When Nessie and I both show you the same information and you can't get it that's a YOU problem.
i

The problem here Jeff, is there's as little proof that your you-know-whats exist as Chelmno grave # 3 / 36.
This is getting a little stale, WendyO.

Here, try some of these posts:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27369&start=80

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27457

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26535

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27590

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27177
No thanks Jeff, I don't want posts, I want proof.

Tell me Jeff, do you have the you-know-what's to admit Mr. M's presentation does not constitute proof?

If you really do believe it is proof, then by what standard of proof do you call it?
Oh, I thought we were clear.

I'm no longer answering your questions, it's your turn to answer mine.

Please see my previous posts.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:37 pm

Oh goodie, let's have a long and fruitless semantic debate about what "proof" means! Yay!
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:43 pm

It's why I'm done answering questions. I'm not going to be drawn into a swirling vortex of endless questions about "proof" that no denier will ever accept.
A sober appraisal would put Himmler himself in the racially average band, or to some extent even below it: his face was round rather than oval, his nose more broad than slim, his normal bearing more ‘sagging’ than erect...
Longerich: Himmler

Hhhhhhhmmmmmm, is it possible that Carlo Mattogno is the greatest scholar the world has ever known?
:lol: :lol:
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:44 pm

WendyO wrote:.....
No thanks Jeff, I don't want posts, I want proof.

Tell me Jeff, do you have the you-know-what's to admit Mr. M's presentation does not constitute proof?

If you really do believe it is proof, then by what standard of proof do you call it?
You ran away from answering my questions about proof. So you clear do not have the you-know-whats.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:46 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:. . . The Germans understand that the experience of the Holocaust constitutes a special Jewish "self-understanding" which forms part of their human worth. This special self-understanding leads to a correlative duty on the part of Germans, that of respect. Because victimization is so important to the Jewish people's self-concept, German courts accept the truth of the Holocaust. German courts also refuse to accept any evidence that might contradict the accepted historiography.* . . .
Says the expert in German law. Who is not an anti-Semite. {!#%@}.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:It's why I'm done answering questions. I'm not going to be drawn into a swirling vortex of endless questions about "proof" that no denier will ever accept.
I am glad you are standing your ground. WendyO, like many denialists will not say what they would accept as proof because they are scared that either now or one day it will be presented to them. A poster called Turnagain is an exception, he has said what he would accept, but he has pitched it beyond what he knows has been done already.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:53 pm

WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
WendyO wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Actually - Gerdes' rules and Roberto's compliance being the least interesting topics yet introduced into this subforum - Roberto did deny deceit on his part and accused Gerdes of playing games with the rules.
No he didn't. But then again, you see a nonexistent grave where none has been proven to exist.
You're wrong, simple as that.
:lol:
Ok, tell us how to read what Roberto wrote: "If you have again changed your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules, just send me the latest version to my e-mail address (you know which it is), and I'll post the next submission in compliance with the latest version of your cowardly and imbecilic posting rules next 15 September." And explain what this has to do with Roberto's supposedly not denying deceit. The only deceit apparent here is that which Roberto accused Gerdes of.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:58 pm

Has WendyO, leaving aside the upcoming incompetent discussion of standards of proof, told us all what this report, cited by Roberto (excerpted here), does signify about Chełmno?
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:39 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
WendyO wrote:Jeff, thanks for all your time, but I have to call it a night. I'd like to leave you with one question: Did Mr. Muehlenkamp prove that Chelmno grave # 3 / 36 contains the remains of at least 15,353 human bodies and at least 52.20 metric tons of human remains?
Sure. His calculations look fine to me.

Keep in mind, none of this is in dispute for me. This is history, the fact is those graves and their contents are expected based upon what we know about this camp.
And here we see the blurring of academia and religious dogma so common among "scholars" of the Holocaust. They don't start with the evidence and then let it lead them to the truth. They start with The Truth (none of which is in dispute, according to Jeffk) and then they find the support for The Truth.

The Truth, in this case, is that they know the Chelmno death toll is X. Because one of the things they know about Chelmno is that the death toll is X, they reasonably expect to find graves and remains that are commensurate with that death toll. Because they found physical evidence of people having died at Chelmno, and because the expected death toll at Chelmno is X, they are certain beyond doubt that they have found evidence of X people being murdered at the camp. It doesn't matter if they found seventy thousand bodies in one mass grave or if they found an old shoe. They found what they expected to find.

To an unbiased scholar, finding an old shoe isn't evidence of X number of people having died at the camp. Finding mass graves holding one one thousandth of X doesn't prove that X number of people died at the camp. But to the Holocaust "scholar", for whom the number of bodies isn't in dispute, they see what they expect to see.

In the world of Holocaust scholarship, hey don't even need to find evidence of mass graves at all to prove the number of victims. Because the Germans are known to have destroyed all the evidence of mass graves, they wouldn't expect to find any evidence of any bodies. And they can't look for any evidence because Jewish law forbids the disturbing of human remains. But because the number of victims isn't in dispute, they know those remains are buried there anyway.

Now, addressing how they first discovered the fact that there are the remains of X victims under the earth at Chelmno, they know because Judge Budnards (or something like that) said there were 350,000 victims in 1945 and the Kraut judiciary in the 1960s said anything below 170,000 is unacceptable. Based upon these estimates (which are not in dispute by Jeffk), they naturally expect to find mass graves commensurate with those estimates. So they have now identified mass graves which contain the expected number of victims. So now the discovery of the mass graves supports the number of victims. The number of proven victims proves mass graves large enough to hold that number of victims and the number of victims proves the number and size of the mass graves which proves the number of victims which proves the size of the mass graves and so on and so on and so on in the wonderfully circular logic of Holocaust "scholarship."
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:54 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:They start with The Truth (none of which is in dispute, according to Jeffk) and then they find the support for The Truth.
Reference please, showing where/how Jeffk came to his conclusions.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:It doesn't matter if they found seventy thousand bodies in one mass grave or if they found an old shoe. They found what they expected to find.
Where did Jeffk explain what he expected to be found in the mass graves which Roberto wrote about?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:In the world of Holocaust scholarship, hey don't even need to find evidence of mass graves at all to prove the number of victims. Because the Germans are known to have destroyed all the evidence of mass graves . . .
Aren't they known to have tried to destroy the mass graves - or are dumb enough to think that you can trip people up with semantic games about "all the evidence and like that?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:And they can't look for any evidence because Jewish law forbids the disturbing of human remains.
Except excavations take place.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:But because the number of victims isn't in dispute, they know those remains are buried there anyway.
The numbers are not in dispute? If you insist, but I thought that in many cases there is ucertainty about precise numbers and that there are ongoing discussions about the numbers of victims.
Mary Q Contrary wrote:Now, addressing how they first discovered the fact that there are the remains of X victims under the earth at Chelmno, they know because Judge Budnards (or something like that) said there were 350,000 victims in 1945 and the Kraut judiciary in the 1960s said anything below 170,000 is unacceptable.
Are you sure that this is how Montague, on whose work I believe Jeffk based comments on the numbers of dead, proceeded and reasoned?
Mary Q Contrary wrote:So they have now identified mass graves which contain the expected number of victims. So now the discovery of the mass graves supports the number of victims. The number of proven victims proves mass graves large enough to hold that number of victims and the number of victims proves the number and size of the mass graves which proves the number of victims which proves the size of the mass graves and so on and so on and so on in the wonderfully circular logic of Holocaust "scholarship."
Pure gobbledygook, which I can't find Jeffk having written.
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:55 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then deniers will just challenge the results or, becoming sudden technical experts, they will decry issues with GPR in general. Further physical studies of sites are certainly welcome but not to shut deniers up - because they won't - rather to clarify and refine what the totality of the evidence about these sites tells us. But far more interesting and necessary is further explication of the role of Chelmno in how the Warthegau was governed, the roles ascribed population groups there, responses of Poles and Jews to German rule in the region, and how events in the Warthegau figured in the development of the Final Solution.
Yeah! If somebody conducted investigations using GPR and concluded that there were mass graves, they would probably go have the results published somewhere and then everybody could look at their methodology and their conclusions and all that. Then somebody might notice something they thought might be wrong in the study. Then they would go off and do another investigation that contradicted the first investigation and then they would get those results published somewhere. Then somebody else might notice something about the second investigation they thought was weird. Then they would go off and do a third investigation and get that published somewhere and everybody would be able to read the results of the third investigation and how the study was conducted and all that and then go off and do yet another investigation. What kind of a crackpot system is that? How are we ever going to achieve certainty if anybody can read something that somebody publishes and challenge it? History by the judiciary is the only way to go. Without Judges deciding the truth, anarchy will reign!
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Re: My Chelmno Grave # 3 / 36 Proofs

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:58 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Then deniers will just challenge the results or, becoming sudden technical experts, they will decry issues with GPR in general. Further physical studies of sites are certainly welcome but not to shut deniers up - because they won't - rather to clarify and refine what the totality of the evidence about these sites tells us. But far more interesting and necessary is further explication of the role of Chelmno in how the Warthegau was governed, the roles ascribed population groups there, responses of Poles and Jews to German rule in the region, and how events in the Warthegau figured in the development of the Final Solution.
Yeah! If somebody conducted investigations using GPR and concluded that there were mass graves, they would probably go have the results published somewhere and then everybody could look at their methodology and their conclusions and all that. Then somebody might notice something they thought might be wrong in the study. Then they would go off and do another investigation that contradicted the first investigation and then they would get those results published somewhere. Then somebody else might notice something about the second investigation they thought was weird. Then they would go off and do a third investigation and get that published somewhere and everybody would be able to read the results of the third investigation and how the study was conducted and all that and then go off and do yet another investigation. What kind of a crackpot system is that? How are we ever going to achieve certainty if anybody can read something that somebody publishes and challenge it? History by the judiciary is the only way to go. Without Judges deciding the truth, anarchy will reign!
It's a game of bait and switch when people like you insist that GPR or whatever can resolve an issue, then when GPR or whatever is used, you guys suddenly develop an allergy to GPR or whatever.

Where's Krege's stuff, speaking of publishing results for comment and debate?
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