A Radio Challenge

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:47 pm

Chester wrote:
Lemmy Caution wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
I'm thinking of reaching people who only have a thin knowledge of the Holocaust.
Therein lies the reason why deniers cherry-pick information and focus on outliers.
Just weeding the garden or picking the poisonous fruit so to speak. That plus usual and customary marketing strategies equal a modified holocaust which will be a breath of fresh air to the world. A revised holocaust history for those who have become holocaust fatigued.

. . . rather than an informed and factual discussion.

You can have "informed and factual discussion" at CODOH. What you can't have at CODOH is mud slinging (your stock-in-trade). Without the histrionics, all you have is a divergence of evidence. Pressac summarized it like this:

i. Holocaust history is bankrupt.
ii. History based on witness accounts and used to fit the need at hand.
iii. Truncated to fit an arbitrary truth.
iv. Sprinkled with a few non-related German documents of uneven value.


Your shield of law is disappearing. Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act (CHRA) has been flushed. Where people were fined or jailed for hurting someones feelings and where the truth is no defense.

You no longer have the moral high road. Its now the lieroad you own. Holocaust damage control is now at DefCon 2 and the threat level is indicating a repeat of history. Heretofore, I didn't realize the absolute fear that revisionism is creating. The fear is international in scope. Will let you all know the growth rate when I quantify it.:http://cjnews.com/international/toulous ... node/90230


Nice series of posts, Lemmy. Unfortunatly you'll only get paid for one. ;)
I get paid by the word, nitwit. And, despite the higher price per word for postingthere, I don't post at CODOH, which is a heavily censored site, hardly representative of the free debate you nominally advocate. (We have other operatives who handle CODOH anyway . . . )

My shield of law?!?!? LOL. I oppose the very restrictions on speech which you now attribute to me. One lie from you after another.

Promises, promises, Chester. Your data. Oh, it's a bit like Wonderland: announce first, figure it out later.

And coinages like "lieroad" to market your crap. It is enjoyable to watch you flounder. Berg was trounced - and your wager against Roberto, repeated, lost.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Chester » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:06 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote:
I get paid by the word, nitwit. And, despite the higher price per word for postingthere, I don't post at CODOH, which is a heavily censored site, hardly representative of the free debate you nominally advocate. (We have other operatives who handle CODOH anyway . . . )

If you learned to watch your tongue and stay focused on the topic - you would be welcomed. What do you get per word? Let's say I paid you to post at CODOH and abide by their rules, do you think you could show a profit? :P

My shield of law?!?!? LOL. I oppose the very restrictions on speech which you now attribute to me. One lie from you after another.

The you was generic exterminationism.

Promises, promises, Chester. Your data. Oh, it's a bit like Wonderland: announce first, figure it out later.

Anything free is worth waiting for.

And coinages like "lieroad" to market your crap. It is, enjoyable to watch you flounder. Berg was trounced - and your wager against Roberto, repeated, lost.

I bet a buck a beer and a cigarette. You raised it, I think to ten bucks, some reefer, and a six pack. I did not accept the bet by telling you I didn't do drugs. So, you ain't gettin' squat out of me, boy. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:19 pm

Chester wrote: If you learned to watch your tongue and stay focused on the topic - you would be welcomed.
I don't post at CODOH, and never did under my own username, so whatever sins you feel I commit in replying to deniers doesn't factor into my posting there or not. Nor am I concerned about feeling welcomed by the people at CODOH. I did lead a raid on the joint under the banner of Free Wroclaw and jnovitzgate once upon a time, but that was a different matter.
Chester wrote:What do you get per word?
This is between me and my handlers.
Chester wrote:Let's say I paid you to post at CODOH and abide by their rules, do you think you could show a profit? :P
I do quite well, and I have no complaints. I don't like the censorship at CODOH and so requested duty at other camps. My handlers obliged. Really very boring.
Chester wrote: The you was generic exterminationism.
I am not generic.
Chester wrote: Anything free is worth waiting for.
People on death row might disagree with this truism.
Chester wrote: I bet a buck a beer and a cigarette. You raised it, I think to ten bucks, some reefer, and a six pack. I did not accept the bet by telling you I didn't do drugs. So, you ain't gettin' squat out of me, boy. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Excuse me, earlier in this thread I said that no bet was placed, and certainly didn't request you pay me. I suggested that you pay Roberto, on account of your unfair insults directed at him, and that you also apologize to him for being so very wrong about him. Your choice, of course, but here I was writing more broadly, that you bet (as in "Informal A view or opinion, especially about something that cannot be known at the present time") against Roberto and your view or opinion was shown to be erroneous.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:33 pm

Erroneous means plain gosh durned wrong, Chester. :mrgreen:

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Chester » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:57 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote: I suggested that you pay Roberto, on account of your unfair insults directed at him, and that you also apologize to him for being so very wrong about him.
Roberto's reputation is a result of his actions. I suggest that interested readers visit these links. http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... erger.html
http://www.deathcamps.org/hateblogs.html

He showed up at the debate and that was our mutual desire, right?

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Chester wrote:
Lemmy Caution wrote: I suggested that you pay Roberto, on account of your unfair insults directed at him, and that you also apologize to him for being so very wrong about him.
Roberto's reputation is a result of his actions. I suggest that interested readers visit these links. http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... erger.html
http://www.deathcamps.org/hateblogs.html

He showed up at the debate and that was our mutual desire, right?
Please stop promoting slander against individuals who do not even post in this forum. You are beneath contempt.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Chester » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:18 pm

Lemmy Caution wrote: Please stop promoting slander against individuals who do not even post in this forum. You are beneath contempt.
Slander? You are too much! thou craven boil-brained dewberry. Now that Section 13 is flushed, Canadians can once again call a prostitute a whore without fear of being fined for hurting her feelings. Stop stirring up trouble. BTW, Roberto and I have been bumping heads, right here, for a couple weeks. Where have you been?
Jumping around, trying to put out fires all over the internet?


Obligatory insult:
Ol' Abe said you can "compress the most words into the smallest idea of anyone I know. "

I can't disagree with him.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:50 pm

Chester wrote:
Lemmy Caution wrote: Please stop promoting slander against individuals who do not even post in this forum. You are beneath contempt.
Slander? You are too much! thou craven boil-brained dewberry. Now that Section 13 is flushed, Canadians can once again call a prostitute a whore without fear of being fined for hurting her feelings. Stop stirring up trouble. BTW, Roberto and I have been bumping heads, right here, for a couple weeks. Where have you been?
Jumping around, trying to put out fires all over the internet?


Obligatory insult:
Ol' Abe said you can "compress the most words into the smallest idea of anyone I know. "

I can't disagree with him.
Stop slandering people. Seriously. Knock it off.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:16 pm

Actually it's libel, and the page linked contains actionable libel, to which neither I nor this forum will be a party.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Chester » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:19 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Actually it's libel, and the page linked contains actionable libel, to which neither I nor this forum will be a party.
What are you talking about?

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:20 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Actually it's libel, and the page linked contains actionable libel, to which neither I nor this forum will be a party.
Yes, you are correct, on all scores. Slander is oral defamation, and libel is written defamation. It's not the first time Chester tried this. Further, people who don't post here cannot even defend themselves. It is wrong on all counts.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:48 pm

The "Chester" user account has been locked while I consider options.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Darren Wilshak » Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:58 pm

Silly sausage Chester.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:58 am

Let's be clear about what happened here:

1) Chester insulted Roberto Muehlenkamp, behind his back, in a thread devoted to this debate, imputing to Roberto cowardice and offering bets that Roberto would back out of the proposed radio debate with Berg, a denier with whom Roberto has been engaged in debate online in various forums for a number of years. (For some bizarre reason, perhaps obsession, Chester roped Andrew Mathis into this . . .)

2) Chester went on the record with a second prediction, namely, that if the radio debate did occur, Roberto would perform poorly: "I'll bring the fork and you bring the platter as I think Roberto will get his head handed to him."

3) Roberto did accept the debate and the debate took place without the drama which Chester tried to stir up.

4) The debate was a disaster for the world's best authority on the irrelevancy of pruhdoosuh gas and Allied bombbbings - with Roberto performing in the same calm, informative, level headed manner he had in the Dalton debate, this time in the face of Berg's ad hominems ("He should know bettah!") and insults ("Rubbish, Mr Muehlenkamp!"), the contrast between the two men, in terms of substance and style, so pronounced that denier Blake from CODOH was already starting the soul-searching within hours of the broadcast.

5) There is no meaningful way either to salvage Berg's performance or to save face for Chester - his predictions all demonstrably off base and clearly biased, nearly as hysterical as Berg himself. The only honorable and honest course left Chester would be to follow Blake - and to call a disaster a disaster, and then to re-think and re-group.

6) Instead, Chester, frustrated, his public utterances now shown to be as daft and groundless as I and others had said, lashed out at Roberto the day after the broadcast, with a gross and despicable ad hominem, one which included false charges meant to damage the reputation of Roberto and people he's worked with on Holocaust themes. Out of substance, unable to form an argument, unwilling to engage in discussion, Chester resorted to more disparagement and escalated to defamation.

This, readers, is the way denial, er, revisionism works. Recorded here for your enjoyment and for the edification of future historians, should they care about these proceedings.
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:54 pm

Hi everybody,

In the HC blog The usual "Revisionist" victory dancing ..., I announced that I would on this thread discuss the comments made by CODOH "Revisionists" about my debate with Friedrich Paul Berg on 22.06.2012.

I had originally intended to do that according to the chronological order of comments made, but as Berg opened his mouth so wide in his last post on the pertinent CODOH thread, I'll do it the other way around. First the champion of "Revisionist" imbecility, then the cheering crowd.

So here we go.
FPB wrote:The actual radio debate between myself and Roberto Muehlenkamp is over. Now, the "debate over the debate" can begin. I appreciate everyone's comments here--complimentary and critical.

Although I had been debating Mr. Muehlenkamp on the internet many times over the last ten years, I was stunned by his gross ignorance as to just how desperate Germany was for liquid fuels for motor vehicles. In fact, Muehlenkamp insisted several times during the debate that in 1942 there was no shortage at all.
Actually what I said was the following:
RM wrote:I’m sure they (the risks of using producer gas) could have been handled. But why bother? (00:24:42) Why bother when Germany at the time these killings were carried out had plenty of gasoline at its disposal? For instance, I have data here that in June 1942 alone 6 million liters of gasoline were delivered to the General Government. At this time Germany had the Romanian oil fields at its disposal. And they were also counting on getting the oilfields like Baku in the Soviet Union. They had lots of gasoline to spend. And gasoline was something that required no extra precautions. And one other thing: for every producer gas truck that was taken out of the line, another truck would have had to be put in the line, and I assume a truck that runs all day long on the Russian streets, which are very bad, spends a lot more gasoline than is spent running a gasoline engine in idle mode to gas people. So it wouldn’t have been exactly a saving of gasoline, apart from the fact that the Germans had enough gasoline at that time. Even in 1945, when they burned the corpses at Dresden after the bombing attack, they used 68,000 liters, by my calculation, of gasoline, and that was a time when gasoline was scarce, but not in 1942. So there was really no reason to use a system which, if not carefully used, was dangerous, when they could use a system which required no special precautions. No need. And if there had been a reason, this would only mean that the Nazis were not the most practical people. So what? So what? Murderers, as I said, don’t always apply the most practical methods. (00:26:35)
RM wrote:Mr. Berg essentially made a fly into an elephant with diesel thing, yeah, diesel was casually mentioned because some witnesses spoke of diesel, but the witnesses who knew, because they operated the engines, or because they serviced the engines, they spoke of gasoline. Mr. Berg has abandoned his claims regarding the color of the victims, or he hasn’t pursued them, instead we get his, what is it, producer gas thing. But he killed his own argument. He said all civilian vehicles were converted to producer gas so the military could use gasoline. OK, the Holocaust, the killing of the Jews, was a military operation, it was part of the war effort, [...] (01:24:58)
So my argument was that the German military and state administration had sufficient gasoline at its disposal in 1942 (curtailing civilian consumption certainly contributed to that), and that there was no reason why they shouldn't have allocated part of their supply to an extermination program that was considered an important part of the war effort. Furthermore a comparatively tiny part - as I pointed out in the blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on Aktion Reinhard(t) Cremation (2), the daily petrol requirements of a single armored regiment were higher than those of corpse cremation at Sobibór if it had been carried out with petrol as the main combustion agent, and even the daily requirements of Treblinka for corpse cremation that I calculated would have been below those of the 21st Panzer Division. Corpse cremation with gasoline as the main combustion agent, needless to say, would have used up much more gasoline than running a gassing engine. The Nazis supposedly could not spare a comparatively trifling amount of gasoline for homicidal gassing at the time when all their domestic and foreign fuel sources were intact and at their disposal, but they could spare 68,000 liters of gasoline for municipal sanitary purposes (cremation of Dresden air raid victims) in February 1945, when fuel available to the military and state administration was running out because the Romanian oilfields were gone and domestic production had largely been destroyed by Allied air attacks.

Additionally, I questioned whether the use of producer gas generators for gassing - with the increased risks it entailed for the users - would really have led to a saving of gasoline. If a producer gas truck was taken out of transportation service for gassing duty and replaced by a gasoline truck, the effect on gasoline consumption would at the very best have been zero saving.

Last but not least, even if producer gas generators had been so much better and so much cheaper a murder weapon than engines, what would this mean in the face of conclusive evidence, from insider witnesses testifying independently of each other and with none of the major "contradictions" or incongruences that Berg rambled about, whereby gasoline engines were used for gassing? It would mean that the Nazis made a mistake in allocation of certain resources to certain purposes, nothing more and nothing less. It would hardly have been their biggest mistake. Using railway transportation capacity that was needed for carrying supplies to the front in order to deport about 2.5 million people to Auschwitz-Birkenau, Majdanek, Chełmno, Bełżec, Sobibór and Treblinka could be seen as a much more egregious waste of resources, if it had not followed the rationale that the Jews had to be exterminated lest they undermine the German war effort (resettling all these people in the occupied Soviet territories, as was done according to "Revisionist" claims, would have meant an even much larger drain on transportation and other resources, by the way). If the Germans had started to mass-produce the Me 262 as a jet fighter in 1942 instead of stupidly trying to convert it into a bomber, they might not have lost the war in the air against the Allied bomber fleets. And their stupidest mistake of all was attacking the Soviet Union in 1941, moreover without any sort of contingency plan in case the blitzkrieg failed. By Berg's amazing "logic", whereby his Nazi heroes never did things that would have been utterly stupid to do, the German attack on the Soviet Union never took place, Allied bombers were blasted out of the sky by Me 262 jet fighters instead of bombing German cities to rubble, and no valuable railway capacity was ever wasted on transporting Jews anywhere.

Berg only addressed one part of my argument (the one about fuel availability), and not the actual argument but a straw-man distortion of it, rambling away about how awfully fuel-starved poor Germany was as if that were an argument against evidence to mass murder by gasoline exhaust.
FPB wrote: WOW! Muehlenkamp was also totally unaware of the fact that Germany had made 85% of its liquid fuels synthetically from coal--and at enormous expense. The source for the "85%" number is:

U. S. Strategic Bombing Survey, Oil Division Final Report, War Department, Washington, D.C., 1947, p. 1.

A link with the entire text of the important essay within the above reference is: http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/ussbsgensum.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . The first paragraph alone should convince almost anyone that Germany's fuel situation was truly deperate. The essay is entitled "An Empire built on Coal, Air and Water." That same section became the title for one of the subsections of my 2003 essay: "Diesel Gas Chambers: Ideal for Torture--Absurd for Murder." http://www.nazigassings.com/dieselgaschamberc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From "An Empire built on Coal, Air and Water," we have the following description of Germany's dilemma after a brief description of the situation at the beginning of the war:

Germany never recovered from this precarious position, and throughout the war her oil stocks, particularly critical items like aviation and motor gasolines, were so tight that her whole military effort would have collapsed like a pricked balloon in three or four months had her oil supply been dried up.
Berg likes to capitalize on ancillary issues and make a fly into an elephant (the diesel sermon he dedicated himself to for decades is just that). I wasn't so well informed about the German war economy as concerns fuel - big deal, and thanks for increasing my knowledge in this respect (unlike Berg, I'm always open to learning something new). However tight and vulnerable the German armed forces' fuel supply was, I'm not aware of their war effort having been hampered by lack of fuel before the last year of the war. It's not like the German armed forces and state administration had been so short of fuel in 1942 that Globocnik could not have been granted the special fuel quota he requested for Operation Reinhard:
Lublin 9262 4.9.1942 2145=WI.=
To the Personal Staff Reichsführer SS – c/o SS-HSTF Grothman HGWD.== S E C R E T.==
Dear Grothman,
As Head of SS and Police I have again been sensibly shortened in the allotment of fuel. So far I was able to carry out Operation Reinhard from my own quota. However, the current shortening restricts operation even further. As however larger shipments from abroad are coming up and an increase of activity is approaching, I request also taking into consideration this aspect. I ask you to see to it with the competent Reich authority that I receive a special quota exclusively for this operation. SS-OGRUF K R U E G E R is not in conditions to allot more fuel to me.=
The Head of SS and Police for the Lublin District
Signed G L O B O C N I K
SS-Brigadeführer and Major-General of Police
The document whose translation is transcribed above is shown in Jules Schelvis, Vernichtungslager Sobibór, 2003 Unrast Verlag, Münster, Germany (hereinafter "Schelvis 2003"), as Document XXII. The document is a letter dated 4 September 1942, sent by Globocnik to SS-Hauptsturmführer W. Grotham at the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (RSHA – Reich Security Main Office). Perhaps Mr. Berg can explain why Globocnik requested a special fuel quota for Operation Reinhard, what could have been the cargo of these "larger shipments from abroad" and why the handling of these "shipments" would have required additional fuel.

Not that it matters much, but the report quoted by Berg may have overstated the relative importance of synthetic motor fuel, perhaps in order to order to dramatize the achievements of air attacks on the German domestic oil industry. The data in the United States Strategic Bombing Survey Summary Report are a bit different:
The German oil supply was tight throughout the war, and was a controlling factor in military operations. The chief source of supply, and the only source for aviation gasoline, was 13 synthetic plants together with a small production from three additional ones that started operations in 1944. The major sources of products refined from crude oil were the Ploesti oil fields in Rumania and the Hungarian fields which together accounted for about a quarter of the total supply of liquid fuels in 1943. In addition, there was a small but significant Austrian and domestic production. The refineries at Ploesti were attacked, beginning with a daring and costly low-level attack in August 1943. These had only limited effects; deliveries increased until April 1944 when the attacks were resumed. The 1944 attacks, together with mining of the Danube, materially reduced Rumanian deliveries. In August 1944, Russian occupation eliminated this source of supply and dependence on the synthetic plants became even greater than before.


---
FPB wrote:The most foolish error made by Muehlenkamp was his insistence that the bright cherry RED coloring of the corpses from carbon monoxide poisoning could only be recognized by trained medical doctors. Rubbish! The color is dramatic and can e-a-s-i-l-y be recognized by anyone who is not color blind. The evaluation of the color is another matter. An ordinary person might erroneously think the victim had spent too much time lying naked on a beach along the Vistula River—but they certainly would not have had any difficulty seeing the RED color. The absence of any mention or hint of such a dramatic feature regarding all supposed CO victims clearly shows that ALL of the “eyewitnesses” to alleged CO gassings at ARC camps simply lied. It is that simple! They lied about the most dramatic and stunning feature which is used universally to distinguish cyanide and CO-caused fatalities from nearly all other causes. The “eyewitness” testimony used to frame and execute countless Germans, even all of Germany in a sense, was m-a-n-u-f-a-c-t-u-r-e-d and rather clumsily by ignorant prosecutors in Poland and elsewhere. In other words, the mass-murder-by-gasoline-exhaust-theory is no more credible than the much older, but now abandoned, claim that diesel engines were used as a source of carbon monoxide for mass murder.
This moronic hollering starts with a gross misrepresentation of one of my arguments. I didn't say that "the bright cherry RED coloring of the corpses from carbon monoxide poisoning could only be recognized by trained medical doctors". What I said was that
a) in its initial stages livor mortis consists of only spots in certain dependent body parts, which may be detected by a physician examining the corpse but are not likely to be noted by a casual observer, especially one without medical training;
b) the prominent cherry-red discoloration that even a casual witness is likely to notice takes hours to develop.
This is important because the eyewitness descriptions of gassing victims that I mentioned refer to the time when the gas chambers were opened, i.e. the witnesses' observations were made shortly after the victims had died and not one, two or more hours thereafter. To be sure, prisoners arranging the victims inside the mass graves or on the cremation pyres might have noticed the cherry-red discoloration in these corpses' dependent parts. But how many of these prisoners survived to testify? And how many of those who survived to testify went into the detail of describing what the corpses looked like? Please tell us, Mr. Berg. Inquiring minds would like to know.

The arguments I made as concerns corpse color were the following:
RM wrote:What Mr. Berg says about cherry-red discoloration of carbon monoxide poisoning victims, this is influenced by several factors, which Mr. Berg knows well because we’ve talked about it a lot, he even has an essay from me on his website. First of all, did the victims die of carbon monoxide poisoning, or did they suffocate? That’s the one thing. The second thing is, the victims mostly came from ghettos in Poland, especially at Bełżec, where we have these descriptions of Pfannenstiel and Schluch from. They came from ghettos in Poland, which were subject to severe malnutrition. Severe malnutrition creates anemia, creates hemodilution, creates respiratory problems, there are medical sources about that, and all these may have led, according to medical literature we have presented, to cherry-red color not being present because there was to little hemoglobin in these people’s blood to display the color, or because they had a compromised ability to oxygenate – the term comes from an article by Risser et al, which Berg has quoted, and which we are glad that he quoted it. Last but not least: even assuming that the victims died of carbon monoxide poisoning and they turned cherry-red, the question is when was that color present, and when was that color so prominent that it would have been noticed not only by a doctor who did a careful examination of the corpse but by any casual witness – a casual witness, we must say, who was so shocked by what he was seeing, he was seeing corpses falling out of the gas chambers and so on, he might not have been too interested in what color they were. What I have seen of sources describing carbon-monoxide poisoning and the cherry-red coloration refer to fatal cases of carbon monoxide poisoning and the color is usually described as showing in the livor of the corpses. The livor, or livor mortis, is a condition that starts to develop some half an hour or something like that, 20 to 30 minutes, after death, but as small patches which can only be detected by a doctor, and for the corpses to become really cherry-red or bright red, it takes hours, may take hours. (00:30:26)
The first argument, that the victims or some of them may have died from suffocation due to lack of oxygen as opposed to carbon monoxide poisoning, was simply ignored by Berg.

Against the second argument, whereby the victims mostly came from starving Polish ghettos and their health problems brought on by malnutrition (anemia, hemodilution, impairment of respiratory function) may have hindered the characteristic cherry-red discoloration of fatal carbon monoxide poisoning, all that Berg could offer was some hollow blather about Jews captured during the Warsaw Uprising in 1943 looking relatively well fed. Yeah, Mr. Berg, that's why they were not taken to Treblinka like the majority who were not in a comparatively good shape, as becomes apparent from the ghetto's medical records and mortality statistics besides a great many photos on which ghetto residents look everything other than well-fed.

The third argument, regarding when the cherry-red livor mortis of people killed by carbon monoxide poisoning becomes so prominent that casual observers (as opposed to examining doctors) are also likely to notice it, Berg addressed by misrepresenting it. I'll leave it open whether Berg simply didn't listen carefully enough or whether he deliberately set up a straw-man.

Berg's answer to my arguments was the following:
FPB wrote:Now, as far as the color of corpses, and, looking at my notes here, he claims that only doctors could recognize the difference. Rubbish, Mr. Muehlenkamp. From you I actually found a beautiful picture of a corpse of a person who died from carbon monoxide poisoning. It was a very good quality photograph, and in fact I incorporated that picture in the logo for my website. (00:32:50)
The picture that Berg blustered about is worth mentioning for two reasons. One is that it was taken from a source pointed out by me, where livor mortis is described as follows (emphases added):
After cardiac arrest, the blood sinks down into the dependent parts of the body – the formerly circulating blood volume is pulled downward by gravity. Thus lividity reflects the position of the corpse at death and is found, for example, on the shoulder blades and buttocks of a supine corpse while sparing areas with tight clothing and contact surfaces. It already appears as patches in the head and neck region 30 minutes after death; it becomes confluent after 1 – 4 hours and reaches its maximum after 3 – 16 hours. Livor mortis is usually bluish-violet due to the deoxygenated blood.
[...]
Livor mortis is bright red in cases of carbon monoxide or hydrocyanide poisoning (or in cases where the corpse is kept in cold storage).
So the picture that Berg capitalizes on:

Image

in all probability shows a fatal carbon monoxide victims being examined in some forensic lab something like 3 or 4 hours after death. The victim had obviously been lying on its back when found, which is why the cherry-red lividity shows on its back and buttocks. The gloved hand on top of the body's side suggests that it has been turned around to make the lividity visible for the photograph. If the body were lying in the position in which it was probably found, not much of the lividity would be visible as lividity forms in the dependent parts of the body, where blood is gradually drawn by gravity after it stops circulating.

The second reason why this picture is worth mentioning is the logo of Berg's website. That logo is an image worth a thousand words, for one look at it is likely to convince any reasonable person that Berg is a degenerate moron whose head is as full of cuckoo as he claims his opponents' heads to be:

Image

At the end of radio debate last Friday, I pointed out out that Berg's diesel blather is completely irrelevant and the work of his life is thus a wasted effort. I said the following:
The only progress Mr. Berg has made – Mr. Berg has actually made a fly into an elephant with his diesel thing, which has turned out to be irrelevant, because the key witnesses, the insider witnesses, spoke of gasoline, period. Mr. Berg is now reduced to saying, oh the Nazis they could have used this they could have used that – so what? The best thing he can hope to demonstrate, with this evidence to what the Nazis used, is that the Nazis were not so bright, not so practical, when it came to killing methods, and that’s irrelevant. People make mistakes … (1:25.48).


This must have hurt poor Berg's tender feelings, judging by how he now tries to reclaim the relevance of his nonsense with this laughably false analogy:
FPB wrote:The abandonment of the old diesel gas chamber theory, which was embraced by all holocaust scholars until about ten years ago, is of enormous significance. It means that for more than fifty years, minimum, the holocaust scholars did not even know what the most important murder weapon was for “the most thoroughly documented event in the entire history of the world.” It is equivalent to a new Warren Commission admitting that one of the bullets which killed JFK hit the president's skull from the front as the Zapruder film shows--and blew out the back top of the president's skull. In other words, that the huge wound at the back of JFK's skull was an exit wound. That's why it was so huge. Jackie is clearly seen lunging to the back of the car trying to catch the skull fragment flying to the back of the car. Muehlenkamp might say: “OK, so the older Warren Commission got the direction wrong for one of the bullets—big deal!” It is a big deal! What it means is that JFK was murdered by two shooters and that there was, indeed, an elaborate conspiracy which murdered JFK—and then covered it up successfully afterward. Yes, children—hoaxes do occur especially when the stakes are high enough and when the hoaxers are as powerful as the victors were after WW2.
First of all, my dear Fredo, there was never such a thing as a "diesel gas chamber theory". Scholars and criminal justice authorities casually mentioned diesel engines in their books and judgments because diesel engines had been mentioned by witnesses whose testimonies they had assessed. But none of those who mentioned diesel engines gave a flying {!#%@} about whether the gassing engine had been a diesel engine or a gasoline engine. If this detail had been of any importance to them, they might have looked more closely at the related evidence - as was done by my fellow HC authors and me, and more recently by scholars Peter Witte and Achim Trunk - and noticed that the insider witnesses, those who operated or serviced gassing engines or were otherwise familiar with them, all mentioned a gasoline engine and not a diesel engine. But this detail was so unimportant to them that they didn't bother to examine it, and thus the false notion of diesel gassing engines entered historiography. There it remained as a detail of minor importance until Friedrich Paul Berg started making his big bloody fuss about diesel engines being an unsuitable method for homicidal gassing. This big bloody fuss, Berg's work of a lifetime, eventually turned out to be completely irrelevant when some scholars and other researchers took a closer look at the body of evidence and discovered that the best evidence - the testimonies of those witnesses who must have known what they were talking about - pointed to the use of gasoline and not of diesel engines. Thus the tiny fly that Berg had made into an elephant became a tiny fly again. An error regarding a minor detail that has been duly revised, nothing more and nothing less.

Second, while the origin of the bullets that killed JFK is relevant in that it provides information about who the killer was (if the bullets hit JFK's skull from the front as the Zapruder film shows, this means that the killer was not the lone marksman Lee Harvey Oswald, that there were other people behind Kennedy's death and that the historical record of the Kennedy assassination must be substantially revised), the re-assessed evidence about the type of gassing engine calls for no substantial revision of the historical record of Nazi mass murder in gas vans and at the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps. It doesn't change the fact that about 1.4 million people were murdered at the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps, about 157,000 people were murderd at Chełmno and at least several ten thousand were murdered in gas vans used by mobile killing squads. It doesn't change the fact that the victims were gassed with engine exhaust and died a rather cruel and painful death. It doesn't change the fact that the victims were killed for nothing other than their ethnic background. And it doesn't change the fact that Berg's Nazi heroes were the murderers, as was established beyond a reasonable doubt independently of any details about the murder weapons. The revision of historiography regarding the type of engine used for gassing refers to a minor detail of marginal importance. Berg's analogy is as false as can be. In fact, it is so silly that one might question Berg's intellect or sanity even if he had not already provided enough reasons for doubt in this respect.
FPB wrote:In general, Muehlenkamp's enthusiastic and unashamed reliance on courtroom testimony is reminiscent of the mindset used to convict witches and heretics just a few centuries ago. After all, why would anyone lie under oath, ever? The judges and prosecutors in the witchcraft trials were well-meaning credible people who tried, I am sure, to evaluate “eyewitness” testimony fairly as some of the courtroom transcripts seem to show--—but they wore blinders to sustain their delusional, false reality. Today, with DNA evidence in the USA, more and more death row inmates are being set free and many convictions based on eyewitness testimony are being totally overturned. No doubt, it is hard to even imagine that anyone, especially if they are Jewish or Polish, would ever commit perjury—but, competent trial attorneys do know that it happens all the time, every day, everywhere--and that they generally get away with it. If one wants to find real devils, people like Muehlenkamp need only look at themselves in the mirror.
To Berg's great misfortune, he has nothing to show for his claim that the prosecutors and judges who prosecuted and tried his Nazi heroes - mostly in the German Federal Republic, a state of law where every defendant is entitled to a fair trial, any form of coercion by investigators is forbidden and renders evidence inadmissible in court, attorneys are allowed to grill witnesses in cross-examination and a conviction requires the defendant's crime and guilt to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt - wore any "blinders" to sustain any "delusional, false reality" (for further information about West German criminal justice regarding Nazi crimes, read my blog Jürgen Graf on Criminal Justice and Nazi Crimes). This claim is a baseless fantasy right out of a moron's cloud-cuckoo-land. The only "blinders" that some German judges may have worn came from their Nazi-era backgrounds and caused them to be excessively demanding as concerns incriminating evidence, all too fond of applying the in dubio pro reo principle, and exceedingly lenient in the sentences they served to any defendant who could not be proven to have killed on his own initiative beyond what superior orders required him to (sadists like Kurt Franz of Treblinka, Karl Frenzel of Sobibór and Oswald Kaduk of Auschwitz, who enjoyed killing beyond the call of duty, got lifetime sentences because that's the only punishment for first-degree murder provided for in the German criminal code).

As to witnesses, what competent trial attorneys and judges actually know is that witnesses telling downright lies are relatively rare while witnesses erring in good faith about certain details (but seldom about the whole event they describe) are rather frequent, and that it is rather easy for a skilled questioner to uncover a perjurer. Judgments at West German trials against extermination camp staff, like the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial, are full of long explanations why the testimonies of certain witnesses were not considered credible and thus not used to convict the respective defendants on certain counts.

Berg apparently knows as much about criminal justice, at least German criminal justice, as a pig does about Sunday. I suggest that he try to overcome his ignorance by reading some of the NS trial judgments that are available online, as well as the book Tatsachenfeststellung vor Gericht.
Glaubwürdigkeits- und Beweislehre, Vernehmungslehre
, an excellent manual about how to interrogate witnesses and assess testimonies for attorneys, judges, court experts and law students, written by three prominent German jurists.

The last sentence of Berg's CODOH hollering, which he reproduced on his website, has me :lol: . I wouldn't be surprised if I showed up in Berg's nightmares looking like this: :evil:

Chester, have you read this post? If so, please move your ass to CODOH, inform Mr. Berg about it and tell him that I'm looking forward to his joining us on this thread. And that I'm waiting for his answer to the four questions I asked him in this blog.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:51 pm

PS: On his website, Berg added this senile nonsense:
Ome point that I regret not making is that there are no photographs of alleged victims of gassing—anywhere. There are lots and lots of atrocity photos and Muehlenkamp uses a large collection of his own--but not even he pretends to have any pictures of gassing victims. His collection is incomplete. The people who present atrocity photos seem to know that perfectly well—but they also know that their photos of victims from other causes still help further the gassing myth. Another oddity is that in the Auschwitz Album one sees many people strolling casually to the gas chambers, without any physical restraint, and supposedly to their own destruction--but no pictures of the people after they had been gassed. Surely, the German photographers would have included some after-gassing photos as well to impress their friends and/or superiors including Himmler and Hitler.
which I don't consider worth any comment.

However, I'm glad that Berg had a look at my collection of photographs and film stills, especially the following blogs:

Photographic documentation of Nazi crimes

Photos from the German East

Mass Graves and Dead Bodies

The Atrocities committed by German-Fascists in the USSR: (1), (2), (3)

June 22, 1941.

No photos of gassing victims?

Some of the corpses found in the Drobitski Yar are likely to be of gassing victims, as the killing there was done by shooting and in gas vans.

Both methods were also applied at Maly Trostenets.

The famous clandestine photos of Birkenau gassing victims are not included in my collection, IIRC.

And so what? Murder is murder, whether it is committed by gassing, by shooting, by hanging, by burning people alive or by placing them under conditions that lead them to die like flies of starvation, exposure and disease. For all the fuss that Hitler-kissers like Berg make about gassings, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of the at least 12.5 million non-combatants murdered by the Nazis during World War II were killed by methods other than gassing. As Timothy Snyder pointed out:
Mass killing in Europe is usually associated with the Holocaust, and the Holocaust with rapid industrial killing. The image is too simple and clean. At the German and Soviet killing sites, the methods of murder were rather primitive. Of the fourteen million civilians and prisoners of war killed in the bloodlands between 1933 and 1945, more than half died because they were denied food. Europeans deliberately starved Europeans in horrific numbers in the middle of the twentieth century. The two largest mass killing actions after the Holocaust – Stalin’s directed famines of the early 1930s and Hitler’s starvation of Soviet prisoners of war in the early 1940s – involved this method of killing. Starvation was foremost not only in reality but in imagination. In a Hunger Plan, the Nazi regime projected the death by starvation of tens of millions of Slavs and Jews in the winter of 1941-1942.
After starvation came shooting, and then gassing. In Stalin's Great Terror of 1937-1938, nearly seven hundred thousand Soviet citizens were shot. The two hundred thousand or so Poles killed by the Germans and the Soviets during their joint occupation of Poland were shot. The more than three hundred thousand Belarusians and the comparable number of Poles executed in German "reprisals" were shot. The Jews killed in the Holocaust were about as likely to be shot as to be gassed.
Please remember, Mr. Berg, that the gassings your are pathetically trying to whitewash your beloved Führer of accounted for "only" about 2.5 million of the about 12.5 million noncombatants for whose murder he was responsible. You're denying only one in five of your beloved Führer's murder victims.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:45 pm

Chester wrote:
Lemmy Caution wrote: I suggested that you pay Roberto, on account of your unfair insults directed at him, and that you also apologize to him for being so very wrong about him.
Roberto's reputation is a result of his actions. I suggest that interested readers visit these links. http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... erger.html
http://www.deathcamps.org/hateblogs.html

He showed up at the debate and that was our mutual desire, right?
Chester promotes the mendacious smear of compulsive liar and psychopath Carmelo "Blogbuster" Lisciotto (even the CODOH clowns are getting tired of this creep, by the way).

What does that tell us about Chester?

Is he hopeless sucker?

Is he a real big @sshole?

Or is he both?

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:50 pm

Couple of things, here. First, kindly wrap lurid images of dead bodies within "spoiler" tags, like this:

Code: Select all

[spoiler][img]image url[/img][/spoiler]
Second, namecalling and such regarding Chester et al. is not helpful.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:05 am

...and once again, I prove myself to be an idiot by asking people to use tags that do not exist.

That would be the "hide" tags, not "spoiler" tags.

Code: Select all

[hide][img]image url[/img][/hide]
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Donnageddon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:33 am

Pyrrho wrote:...and once again, I prove myself to be an idiot by asking people to use tags that do not exist.

That would be the "hide" tags, not "spoiler" tags.

Code: Select all

[hide][img]image url[/img][/hide]
It's OK Pyrrho, we still tolerate like you!
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Donnageddon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:39 am

Oh crap, did I just venture into the "holocaust denial" thread?

Hi deniers, how is that denying the holocaust working out for you?

Not too well? That is to be expected. Perhaps you need a new hobby.

I hear "throwing yourself in front of a bus" is the latest craze. You should check it out!
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:40 am

Pyrrho wrote:...and once again, I prove myself to be an idiot by asking people to use tags that do not exist.

That would be the "hide" tags, not "spoiler" tags.

Code: Select all

[hide][img]image url[/img][/hide]
LOL At least you reminded me what slander means . . . :)
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:48 am

The deniers have all but gone away Donnageddon.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:50 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:The deniers have all but gone away Donnageddon.
Thus raising many troubling philosophical and knotty practical questions . . .
Saramago: "All this would be absurd if it weren't happening."

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Darren Wilshak » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:13 am

You are correct. David gone, Chester on ice, Bob away.

Ah well, ask the Ness man, he's full of philosophy. No you can't, he's upped the sticks and gone a JREFIng...

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Donnageddon » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:43 am

Darren Wilshak wrote:The deniers have all but gone away Donnageddon.
I used to post on this thread when "Bob" commented. But it was too obvious what "Bob" was doing, And the subject matter too depressing.

I have great admiration for those who confront these denier aah-holes. They can always take a picture, or comment out of context and twist it for their unexplainable purposes.

I am glad there are people ready to respond to the nonsense.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Nessie » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:52 pm

Darren Wilshak wrote:You are correct. David gone, Chester on ice, Bob away.

Ah well, ask the Ness man, he's full of philosophy. No you can't, he's upped the sticks and gone a JREFIng...
Still here, presently waiting for a denier to have a debate with. :D
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:22 pm

Nessie wrote:
Darren Wilshak wrote:You are correct. David gone, Chester on ice, Bob away.

Ah well, ask the Ness man, he's full of philosophy. No you can't, he's upped the sticks and gone a JREFIng...
Still here, presently waiting for a denier to have a debate with. :D
I have invited Friedrich Paul Berg and some of his cheering crowd. Berg has never been afraid of open debate, but I'm not so sure about the others.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:06 pm

Chester may or may not be permitted to return. I haven't made up my mind yet and probably won't for a few days.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:29 am

While we wait for Berg and/or his back-slappers to make up their minds, I'll comment the wisdom uttered by the latter on the "CODOH Revisionist Forum", starting with "haarp" (who has been invited to post here).
haarp wrote:As someone who was hoping to hear an educated response to support the Holocaust claim, Roberto was a severe let down.
Apparently I didn't say what Mr. "haarp" likes to hear. :mrgreen:
haarp wrote:He makes the claim that there's absolutely no proof to call into question any of the claims made by exterminationists which destroyed his credibility from the beginning because there are still questions, what, he thinks people are asking questions because it's fun?
Actually Mr. "haarp" destroyed his credibility from the beginning with this stupid comment. I said that all known evidence points to systematic mass murder while no evidence points to an alternative scenario like resettlement of deported Jews in the "Russian East". That's how it is, my friend, better get used to the idea. And get used to the idea that there's not the slightest evidence, at least outside your cloud-cuckoo-land, to any "hoax" at the origin of the accepted historical record. Quite apart from the fact that such monumental "hoax" would have been completely impossible, like it or not. Why do I think "people" are "asking questions"? Well, some do so because they are Hitler-kissers and cannot face certain unpleasant facts about the crimes of the regime they adulate. Others do so because they hate Jews and cannot face certain unpleasant facts about crimes committed against Jews. Still others do so because they are both Hitler-kissers and Jew-haters. And then there are some (a tiny minority) who ask questions because they think it's cool to be "irreverent" or "politically incorrect" or to attack perceived "taboos" or "holy cows". Those of the latter category sometimes come to their senses, like my fellow blogger and co-author Jason Myers. The ideologically motivated Hitler-kissers and/or Jew-haters, on the other hand, are beyond reasonable arguments.

Just to further illustrate how stupid Mr. "haarp"’s argument about "people" asking "questions" is, there are also "people" questioning the Theory of Evolution. There are even people questioning the globe shape of our planet. Is either supposed to mean anything, except that such "people" are a bunch of idiots?
haarp wrote:Don't insult peoples intelligence.
"haarp" doesn't read like I would insult much intelligence by expressing what I think of him and his motivations.
haarp wrote:Then goes on to say ridiculous things such as the Priest 'uncovering' 800 mass graves in Russia, who was only allowed to excavate 1 and only by removing the top soil, but proceeds to talk about how the victims were all Jews and there were thousands of bodies with German bullets laying in the soil nearby.
haarp is a lousy listener. Father Desbois discovered about 800 mass graves in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union. He uncovered some of them, because the religious Jews co-sponsoring his endeavor only allowed him to do one excavation, the ones at Busk (footage of the excavations can be seen here). The other mass graves he identified by correlating different sources from evidence independent of each other:
a) physical evidence on site, like soil disturbances, human remains disinterred by robbery diggers, cartridges of German bullets;
b) eyewitness testimonies from local villagers, several of them interviewed independently of each other regarding each killing site;
c) Soviet postwar crime site investigation reports;
d) Evidence from West German trials, like Nazi documents and testimonies of defendants and witnesses before West German criminal justice authorities.
Where these independent sources of evidence matched, he made his conclusions about the location and approximate contents of a mass grave. His method was/is a solid method applied in both historical research and criminal investigation. West German courts established the facts of Nazi crimes beyond a reasonable doubt even without the benefit of site access, in trials conducted while the Iron Curtain was in place.
At Busk, Father Desbois did what he did regarding the other graves, and additionally did an excavation. Not because the excavation was necessary to establish the presence and contents of these graves (correlating evidence of the aforementioned categories would have been sufficient) but in order to illustrate the nature of his work and the correctness of his method on hand of one graphic example.
haarp wrote:How does one come to that conclusion so positively without any investigation whatsoever?
How can one be so utterly stupid (or ignorant, or mendacious) as to call the investigation procedure described above no investigation whatsoever?
haarp wrote:Then he points out the flaw in his argument himself, he proceeds to say it's out of respect and religious law you cannot excavate mass graves.
Where's the flaw supposed to be? If one is barred from excavating mass graves for some reason, one has to and can very well establish their existence and contents by correlating other sources of evidence independent of each other, as Father Desbois did.
haarp wrote:Ok, so why are you taking leaps of faith and assuming what's in there and why's it outrageous for people to question your claims?
Except for "Revisionist" true believers, nobody is taking leaps of faith here. Historical facts are being reconstructed by correlating all available evidence, physical, documentary and other. That's how historical research works. That's also how criminal investigation works. Only in "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land is excavating a mass grave the only valid form of investigation. And there only when it comes to the crimes of their beloved Nazi Germany. I'm sure that haarp accepts as factual the crimes attributed to, say, Messrs. Lenin and Stalin ("Red Terror", purges, Gulag camps, etc.) without yelling for excavations of the mass graves containing these crimes' witnesses. Or are you also a Stalin apologist who accepts as factual only those relatively few crimes of Uncle Joe that were uncovered by crime site investigations?
haarp wrote:Thought I'd make a list of points discussed and made during the debate:
Friedrich debated:
Fuel in short supply
Irrelevant for the reasons I explained during the debate and again here. The German military and the Nazi state administration were not so fuel-starved in 1942 that they couldn't have spared a little of their gas for running gassing engines.
haarp wrote:Diesel gas chambers in 3 of the camps
Wrong because insider witnesses from all three camps (folks who operated or services gassing engines or were otherwise familiar with them, as opposed to casual observers or hearsay witnesses), described the gassing engines as gasoline engines and not as diesel engines. Details here.
haarp wrote:Producer gas generators in use producing a much more lethal dose of Co2
Irrelevant for the reasons explained in the debate as well as here and here. Producer gas may have been more toxic but was also dangerous for the users, detaching producer gas vehicles from other service and replacing them by gasoline vehicles would have meant no saving of gasoline at all, gasoline exhaust was lethal enough and a safer method from a user perspective, and it's not like the German armed forces or the Nazi state administration were so fuel-starved in 1942 that they couldn't have spared a comparatively small amount of gasoline for running gassing engines. Gasoline supplies, unlike producer gas, could also be used for a dual purpose (to run gassing engines and to help burn the bodies).
haarp wrote:Bodies turn red after Cyanide poisoning
Not necessarily. Whether and when that happens depends on several factors not taken into consideration by Berg.
haarp wrote:No mention from eye witnesses of red, but mentions of blue colouring in the bodies
Actually Reder's description whereby the bodies looked as if they were alive suggests an unusually healthy aspect of the corpses like is characteristic for carbon monoxie poisoning victims. Pfannenstiel and Schluch both mentioned that some victims were bluish in parts of their faces. Pfannenstiel expressly attributed this to death by suffocation (due to lack of oxygen), which was probably how many of the victims died.
haarp wrote:Healthy weight on average
Utter nonsense.

For reasons why this is utter nonsense, see here, here and here.
haarp wrote:Zyklon B taking too much time to kill a person
Also nonsense, see here.
haarp wrote:No proper investigation conducted to proof exterminationist claims
Actually investigations conducted are at least as proper as regarding any other historical event of phenomenon and consist of finding, assessing and correlating different types of evidence (eyewitnesses, documents, demographics and physical evidence) from sources independent of each other. It's not Berg who gets to determine what a proper investigation must contain.
haarp wrote:Allies bombing the infrastructure of Germany
And thus killing concentration camp inmates by typhus because the Germans had no water to keep them clean, yeah. Apparently it didn't occur to Fritz the moron that the prime cause for high mortality among concentration camp inmates at the end of the war was that the Germans crowded them into much too small places like Bergen Belsen without sufficient hygienic facilities to start with and fed them below subsistence level (the guards were not starving, nor was the Wehrmacht, nor was the adjacent civilian population). And it obviously doesn't matter to him that the people thus treated were illegally detained civilians, who shouldn't have been in those stinking camps in the first place.
haarp wrote:Millions of Jews survived
Sure. And so? See my first question to Berg on this blog.
haarp wrote:Judicial system biased
Said Fredo with nothing to show for it. Actually he went as far as claiming that Polish and other criminal justice authorities induced the witnesses into lying. A fantastic claim supported by no evidence whatsoever, and furthermore belied by similarities between testimonies before various entities in east and west that could not have coordinated their supposed manipulating efforts with each other.
haarp wrote:Roberto debated:
No proof to contradict anything
More precisely: all known evidence points to systematic mass murder, none to an alternative scenario.
haarp wrote:Germany had plenty of fuel throughout the war, even till the last days
No, the argument was this (emphasis added):
RM wrote:I’m sure they (the risks of using producer gas) could have been handled. But why bother? (00:24:42) Why bother when Germany at the time these killings were carried out had plenty of gasoline at its disposal? For instance, I have data here that in June 1942 alone 6 million liters of gasoline were delivered to the General Government. At this time Germany had the Romanian oil fields at its disposal. And they were also counting on getting the oilfields like Baku in the Soviet Union. They had lots of gasoline to spend. And gasoline was something that required no extra precautions. And one other thing: for every producer gas truck that was taken out of the line, another truck would have had to be put in the line, and I assume a truck that runs all day long on the Russian streets, which are very bad, spends a lot more gasoline than is spent running a gasoline engine in idle mode to gas people. So it wouldn’t have been exactly a saving of gasoline, apart from the fact that the Germans had enough gasoline at that time. Even in 1945, when they burned the corpses at Dresden after the bombing attack, they used 68,000 liters, by my calculation, of gasoline, and that was a time when gasoline was scarce, but not in 1942.
Does "haarp" have hearing or understanding problems, or is he lying?
haarp wrote:Nazi's were not practical
More precisely:
RM wrote:So there was really no reason to use a system which, if not carefully used, was dangerous, when they could use a system which required no special precautions. No need. And if there had been a reason, this would only mean that the Nazis were not the most practical people. So what? So what? Murderers, as I said, don’t always apply the most practical methods. (00:26:35)
Does "haarp" have hearing or understanding problems, or is he lying?
haarp wrote:Bodies were buried in very deep pits in Sob, Trib and Bels
Wow, he got one right. For details about the size and capacity of these graves and their contents see here, here and here.
haarp wrote:No forensic investigation out of respect of the dead
No, my friend. No forensic investigation because no one is being indicted any longer for having participated in the killings. The Poles did forensic crime site investigations after the war, I expressly mentioned one of their investigations at Treblinka. What happens today is that archaeologists investigating the site are not allowed to excavate the mass graves because that would violate Jewish burial laws. Even core drilling, as was done at Bełżec in 1997-99 and at Sobibór in 2001, has been decried as "desecration" by Jewish religious fundamentalists. So archaeologists, no doubt to their great annoyance, are now restricted to non-invasive geophysical subsoil imaging – the method that Richard Krege shot "Revisionism" in the foot with at Treblinka.
haarp wrote:No forensic investigation needed
None indeed, because demographic data coupled with documentary and eyewitness evidence, and further corroborated by postwar forensic investigations and recent archaeological investigations, leave no room for reasonable doubt about what happened at these lovely places.
haarp wrote:1.4 million sent to Sob, Trib and Bels
As proven by documentary evidence, and to this day "Revisionists" haven’t managed to prove that a single one of the deportees was transported onwards to the occupied Soviet territories, even though they should be wading in evidence to such gigantic resettlement operation.
haarp wrote:Used the term 'UFO' to try and make Friedrich appear crazy
With the evidence "Revisionists" have got to offer regarding what they claim happened to the deportees after they reached B, S, or T (none at all), "Revisionists" might as well claim that the deportees were abducted by flying saucers. And calling poor Friedrich "crazy" is being nice to him. The man is one of the most demented morons in "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land. Just look at the logo on his website.
haarp wrote:No need to prove people died by gassing
No, stupid. That people died by gassing is abundantly proven by eyewitness testimonies, documentary evidence (e.g. the "Vergasungskeller" document) and physical evidence (see for instance the Cracow Report of 1945 and the study by Keren et al about the holes in the roofs of the Birkenau gas chambers. What I said was that it doesn’t necessarily take an autopsy of a gassing victim to prove that people died by gassing (contrary to Berg’s senseless claim), and considering the way that most of the bodies were disposed of such autopsy is also an unrealistic expectation.
haarp wrote:Does not know anything related to the Allied bombing of German infrastructure during the war
What I don’t know anything about is that concentration camp inmates in 1945 were killed by Allied bombers and fighter planes rather than by their guards and the conditions in which they were forced to live in unsanitary, overcrowded in underfed camps, as was claimed by Berg. I challenged Berg to provide all cases of concentration camp inmates killed by the Allies that he knows about. Let’s see what comes of it.
haarp wrote:Zyklon B kills in a "few minutes"
Certainly so if the concentration is sufficiently high. See here for details.
haarp wrote:Jews were well-fed in Poland in 1943, those who were too weak were sent to the 'death camps'
Wrong again. The argument is that if you see comparatively well-fed Jews in pictures of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in April 1943, that’s because these were people deemed strong of skilled enough to work for the German war effort in the ghetto, who accordingly were fed better than the majority of the ghetto’s population, and who accordingly were spared deportation to Treblinka unlike the majority of the ghetto’s population. If you want to see what the average ghetto inhabitants looked like prior to the deportations, have a look at this photo collection.

So it looks like Mr. "haarp" didn’t understand much of the debate Or then he is being dishonest.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:06 pm

Next in line is blake121666, whose commentary is not so bad for a "Revisionist", as LC already pointed out. He has also been invited to post here.
blake wrote:I thought the debate was very confused and would surely confuse someone not particularly knowledgeable with the issues.
Roberto actually had a few "wins" in my opinion:
1. Fritz peppered ad hominems throughout his arguments ("people such as Roberto should think how I think" - and things like that).
Agreed, and I pointed that out at least twice during the debate.
blake wrote:2. Making an argument such as "Germans would have used producer gas and not engine exhaust or Zyklon-B" isn't particularly convincing w/o some fleshing out of the position - which wasn't satisfactorily done by Fritz.
Can a could-shoulda-woulda argument ever be convincing when there's evidence to what was actually done, whether or not it is what "should" and thus "would" have been done in someone's hindsight opinion?
blake wrote:Although Fritz did make a good point about the slow-release properties of Zyklon-B; which I'd think that even someone very green to the issue might investigate this claim and its implications.
Someone investigating this claim might find out that it doesn't hold water, as I did.
blake wrote:3. Roberto gave more of a holistic type argument (albeit from either a delusional or mendacious perspective since his arguments are false on a thin investigation).
Big words, let's see if there's anything behind them. I'd ask "blake" to substantiate his accusations on CODOH if I were not banned from that lovely place. As it is, I trust he'll come over here and tell me (hopefully he's not a coward throwing manure from the Cesspit, like other CODOH clowns).
blake wrote:Here are suggestions for Fritz of what I think would make a more compelling position from him. I'm thinking of reaching people who only have a thin knowledge of the Holocaust.
1. Start off by defining the Holocaust: what it is and what it isn't and what you deny and don't deny.
That's a good idea in principle, but I doubt that Fredo has sufficient knowledge of anything other than his techno-babble to take such an approach.
blake wrote:2. Go over the audio of the debate and try to come up with the most succinct and straight-forward way to refute every one of Roberto's falsities.
As I proclaim no falsities, that would be even harder for poor Fredo.
blake wrote:For instance, Roberto made claims that the AR camps could plausibly have stored 100s of thousands of bodies. Succinctly state the AR camp narrative (it's prima facie absurd as alleged w/o even having to analyse much).
Only if you're too lazy to do some elementary math. I look forward to blake's reading Chapter 7 of the HC critique and trying to show me what is demonstrably "absurd" in what I wrote. Others have already tried and failed.
blake wrote:3. Flesh out the red corpse issue you're so fond of. It's a good argument but I think it probably goes over the head of a green listener.
In post # 135 I have again shown just how "good" this argument is. See also my response to Berg quoted on his website (a post on the extinct RODOH forum that Fredo kindly saved for posterity).
blake wrote:4. Don't be so adamant about your pet "producer gas" argument. You weren't as bad with this as you usually are.
Apparently Berg has provided even sillier presentations of his irrelevant coulda-shoulda-woulda argument.
blake wrote:The main issue here is that the claimed gassing operations are foolishly inappropriate, not that you can think up a better way (although a quick mention of your producer gas wouldn't be bad).
Are hindsight considerations about a supposed "better" way than what was done according to evidence an issue at all?
blake wrote:Zyklon-B is inappropriate because it needs to be heated and continues outgassing for many hours.
Not at ambient temperatures close to the low boiling point of 27º centigrade or so, let alone at temperatures well above that, which reigned in the gas chambers already due to the body heat of hundreds of people packed together. If that wasn't enough due to very cold outside temperatures (rarely so, as most of the gassings took place in warm weather), the gas chambers could be pre-heated, and IIRC there's evidence that they were. No big deal. What better way of poisoning people than throwing a few cans of your staple insecticide into a closed room through a few openings would blake suggest, by the way? Not that it matters, just curious.
blake wrote:Maybe even try to come up with a succinct summary of the prussian blue issues w.r.t. this.
I'm not sure if Fredo even understands these issues (discussed here, for instance). Better let Germar himself do that.
blake wrote:Engine exhaust is inappropriate because you don't need a whole complicated engine to produce CO which is trivially easy to do w/o an engine.
How, with bottled carbon monoxide that is hard to obtain because it has little industrial applications? Or with Berg's beloved producer gas, which would have gassed the killers themselves or blown them up if they were not careful enough (and the Trawniki guards were not exactly known for their discipline). Funny to see blake embrace the very coulda-shoulda-woulda crap that he previously said was not so hot, by the way.
blake wrote:No eyewitness mentioned red corpses (and in fact blue corpses were claimed) when the corpses would have been red had people died from CO. Roberto would trot out his mendacious make-it-up-as-you-go-along crap which you could use to make him look very bad on cross-examination.
How about coming over here and trying to make me look "very bad on cross examination" over that "red corpses" non-argument, bigmouth? Fredo tried like hell on the extinct RODOH forum and made a fool of himself every time. Maybe that's why he preferred to stick with his producer gas mantra in the radio debate.
blake wrote:I also would have liked more of a dialogue format to the debate rather than set speechifying. Rebuttals of points as they are made (in a civil way of course) would have been nice.
I'm not conscious of having indulged in that "speechifying" sin, though Berg certainly did. With little more than rhetoric and some technobabble to offer, what else was he to do?
blake wrote:W/o handling things this way I'm afraid that the debate was a confused jumbled mess.
On Fredo's side it certainly was. But that's Fredo's problem.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Our next guest is Steven Willow, also invited to post on this forum, who agrees with blake on certain matters but not on other.
SW wrote:I agree with Blake121666 somewhat about bringing a broader view of the Holohoax than just "producer gas."
Like who is supposed to have engendered this monumental "hoax" and how they are supposed to have done it? Here's some interesting reading for you, Steven (assuming you are capable of understanding it): The Hoax That Dare Not Speak Its Name.
SW wrote:For example, when Roberto Muehlenkamp went on and on about how cold war enemies like the US and Soviets would not have cooperated to create a hoax during the 60s, when West German courts were conducting their investigations, Mr Berg might have revealed exactly how the Hoax was carried out and detailed the forging of documents and the torturing of witnesses.
Problem is, my dear Steven, that neither Berg nor any other true believer can offer much if any evidence that any of the many documents incriminating your Nazi heroes was forged or that any but a few of the thousands of witnesses and defendants at various trials before various entities in east and west was tortured. The standard "example" is usually Rudolf Höss, who was tortured by the Brits after his capture but later provided the same and much more information when not under duress. He even told the Poles where they could stick their overblown 4 million estimate about the death toll of Auschwitz Birkenau. Boy, they must have tortured him like hell to get that out of him.
SW wrote:He could have used this theme to show exactly how West German courts brutalised Kurt Franz and Franz Stangl to get them to testify about gassings that never happened.
First time I read that West German courts are supposed to have "brutalised" Kurt Franz and Franz Stangl, actually. Steven must have been smoking some weird stuff or reading some real weird junk.
SW wrote:I think that these West German confessions are puzzling to the general public who are not aware that West Germany was under Zionist control.
Why, looks like we have a real cuckoo here, to use one of Berg's expressions. Or an avid reader of top cuckoo Jürgen Graf, whose rubbish about West German criminal justice I took apart here.
SW wrote:Some people even believed that these West German courts were leniant and that former Nazis spewed out testimony about gas chambers without even being pressured
Such people obviously follow the evidence where it leads and are aware that for none of the 912 NS-crimes trials before West German courts between 1945 and 1997, which involved 1,875 defendants and resulted in 14 death sentences, 150 life sentences and 842 timely sentences, there is any evidence of defendants or witnesses having been "pressured". Which is no surprise as according to the German constitution in Criminal Procedure Law every suspect is entitled to a fair trial,.evidence extracted under any form of pressure is inadmissible in court and defense attorneys are allowed to grill witnesses at their leisure in cross-examination. At one trial at least (the Majdanek trial between 1975 and 1981), defense attorneys even practiced "Revisionism" in the courtroom, without the court doing anything about such activities. "Zionist control", yeah. Keep on dreaming, Steven.
SW wrote:, so Mr Berg could have educated the public in this regard.
I'd love to see Jürgen Graf giving it a try, but Berg? He knows too little besides his techno-babble to even produce a coherent argument in this respect, I dare say. Yelling that all interrogators were fanatics trying to denigrate poor Nazi Germany doesn't cut it.
SW wrote:With that said, I totally disagree with Blake121666 about the unimportance of "producer gas." Mr Berg is the formost expert in the world on what types of fuel the Germans would not use for gas chambers. He made it clear that petrol was essential to the war effort and kept German soldiers warm and healthy during those horrible Russian winters, which producer gas would not have done.
Which doesn't change the facts that in 1942 the German military and state administration were not exactly so fuel-starved that they couldn't have spared a little gas for gassing engines, that replacing producer gas vehicles detached for gassing with gasoline vehicles for military service would have meant no gasoline saving at all at best, and that there was thus no reason to prefer a method that could be rather dangerous for the users over one that was comparatively risk free and no less efficient.
SW wrote:Producer gas, Mr Berg proved, would have killed more jews in a shorter time span and would have not detracted from war aims.
Gasoline exhaust killed fast enough (gassing time was never a bottleneck in the operation), and comparatively small amounts of gasoline made available for gassing would have been no distraction from the war effort at all, quite apart from the fact that getting rid of the Jews was considered part of the war effort. If anything detracted from the war effort in a military sense, it was using lots of railway transport capacity for deporting Jews to extermination camps instead of carrying supplies to the front. And moving those Jews onward to the occupied Soviet territories and resettling them there (as was done according to "Revisionist" lore) would have detracted yet more railway transport capacity from serving Wehrmacht logistics, besides other precious resources. Ever thought about that, Steven?

Note again the spelling "jews" in Steven's otherwise flawless ortography, by the way. The fellow obviously means to express his contempt for Jews.
SW wrote:So why would so called genocidal Nazis have used ridiculous Diesel, or strategically crucial petrol?
For the reasons explained above.
SW wrote:The answer, Mr Berg clearly presented. They would have used producer gas which was cheap and available.
"Would have" speculations may be interesting in the absence of evidence to what was done, but where there is such evidence (moreover from several insider witnesses independent of each other who had no reason to lie and are not known to have been "pressured"), it is a moot exercise in imbecility. The most one could hope to demonstrate with such non-argument is that the SS were not as practical and economic in their methods as they would have been if producer gas genius Berg had advised them.
SW wrote:The fact that no eyewitnesses even mentioned producer gas one time is absolute proof that the Holocaust was a Hoax. No one else has argued this like Mr Berg, and we all owe him thanks for a job well done
Nah, this Jew-hating Willow is definitely a cuckoo. He deserves the first comment made about the blog in which I invited him here:
Oh, god, why am I listening to this? Is this Berg mentally retarded? No, I mean really, why is it, that of all conspiracy whack jobs holocaust deniers seem to be the dumbest.

"This didn't happen, because I would have done it better."
Yeah, congratulations, you are a total moron. Please kill yourself with your special fuel.
By the way, Steven, who is that feeble-minded-looking fellow in your avatar?
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Steven Willow's remarks were followed by a post from the "Moderator" (obviously the deplorable Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, judging by the gibbering hatred of my humble person that transpires from his back-slapping of Berg) and one from my old friend Wilfried "neugierig" Heink, the old Nazi who runs the "Inconvenient History" blog together with Thomas Kues.
WH wrote:I finally had a chance to listen to most of the debate. Having debated Roberto Muehlenkamp for some ten years, I know that he has his stuff down pat. He also has a special talent to obfuscate, to present material as fact when in reality it is only his interpretation, faulty more often than not. Here is just one example: R.M. stated that investigations had taken place, referring to the Lukaszkiewicz (L) Treblinka investigations. He then claimed that L had found a ‘grave’, not so. Here is what L
reported:
“The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp…”
Cold coffee, my dear Heink, besides the pot calling the kettle black. What Lukaszkiewicz described can only have been a former mass grave refilled with human remains after the bodies had been extracted and cremated, as also becomes apparent from the fact that L. had this crater excavated to the bottom (7.5 meters!) in order to "discover the depth of the pit(s) in this part of the camp". See here and here for further details, including the whereabouts of the excavated grave pit inside the Treblinka camp area.
WH wrote:IAside from the bomb crater issue, this clearly says that they had just ‘further excavated’ a bomb crater. L later, in his final report submitted at the IMT as USSR-344 (and strangely never used), wrote: “During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves,…”, which R.M. interprets as meaning ‘full’ graves, one of his favorite ruses. And also, L never tells us where this bomb crater was located.
A the excavated pit filled with human remains can only have been a (former) mass grave, L.'s statement that had found "no graves" can only be interpreted as meaning that he found no pits full of stinking human bodies, unsurprisingly so as the bodies had been extracted from the graves and cremated. This reading is no "ruse" but a more reasonable interpretation than old Heink was ever able to make.
WH wrote:IHaving said that, I did not like the format, issues were left hanging. “The Holocaust” is just too big a subject; it has to be discussed in parts.
Mr. Berg did a commendable job, but I have to wonder if this turned any True Believers into doubters.
I wouldn't be surprised indeed if Berg's arrogant and hollow rhetoric had made one of the other follower of the "Revisionist" faith (especially among the rare newcomers without an entrenched Nazi-apologetic/anti-Semitic agenda) wonder whether the movement he or she had joined is not a load of BS.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:54 pm

Our next guests will be:

"Hektor"

"ginger"

Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis

"Pa Gromheizer

And again, Fredo himself.

Stay tuned!

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:32 pm

I hope you have informed them that there is a two-drink minimum.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:29 pm

I'll ignore Hektor's wishful thinking and pseudo-philosophical nonsense and look at these two:

"ginger"

Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis

The lady came up with some questions to Berg about Zyklon B (which I'll look at when I get to Berg), plus the following:
ginger wrote:Some of Roberto's points gave me pause - like being able to detect mass graves with core samples, radar and aerial photos. Of course I know nothing about these techniques.
Regarding the detection of mass graves by core drilling, read my blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on the Aktion Reinhard(t) Mass Graves (1), especially the sections about Bełżec and Sobibór, which link to the pertinent information from archaeological reports.

Regarding the detection of mass graves by geophysical methods, read the article Excavating Nazi Extermination Centres as well as my blog Thomas Kues on recent archaeological finds at Treblinka.

Regarding air photographs showing mass graves, read the Treblinka section of the blog Mattogno, Graf & Kues on the Aktion Reinhard(t) Mass Graves (1) and Alex Bay's article The Reconstruction of Belzec, especially section 4.6.

As you will see, I know what I'm talking about.

Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis freaked out when his fellow true believer confessed her uneasiness about mass grave investigations, and let fly as follows:
Hargis wrote:Roberto lied through his teeth. There has been no detection of mass graves with core samples, radar, and aerial photos. The 'studies; he takes these lies from have been utterly demolished. Ginger, you really need to read these threads, all of them. Invest a little time and don't rely on soundbytes.

'Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

and then:
'Mass Graves claimed to be found at Treblinka'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6804&p=49215

'Belzec: a fraudulent excavation'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30&p=37585

'Kola's Belzec report and photographs [?] of core samples.'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4154&p=26799
So I'm supposed to have "lied" because I referred to archaeological investigations that a sparrow-brained coward and inveterate liar claims to have been "utterly demolished" by his imbecilic hollering and/or that of his fellow fanatics.

As so often before, wishful thinking is the only thinking that Hargis shows himself capable of.

Far more intelligent attempts to refute or explain away the results of archaeological investigations at the former death camps have been made by Mattogno, Graf and Kues, three "Revisionist" authors who stand a bit (not much) above the bleating "Revisionist" herd.

As "ginger" may find out in Chapter 7 of the HC critique and in my blog Mattogno on Chełmno Mass Graves, I have made mincemeat of these attempts, and exposed a few nasty lies in the process.

Who knows, the lady might even realize (as have other "Revisionists" before her) that Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis produces nothing but verbal manure whenever he hits the keyboard.

"ginger" and Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis are of course cordially invited to join this forum. Jonnie will ignore the invitation because he's too afraid to venture outside his Führerbunker, but maybe the lady is made of sterner stuff.

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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Nessie » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:39 am

I would like to properly continue the brief debate Hannover and I had about the bombing campaign during WWII, which was heavily moderated not for breaking forum rules on CODOH, but for showing Hannover was wrong.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Pyrrho » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:36 pm

Just a note here that Chester's account will remain locked. Libel, legal issue, non-negotiable, etc.

I'd go into the rationale but something has come up that will command most of my attention for the next few days and I just can't spare the time. Priorities.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Lemmy Caution » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:44 pm

Pyrrho wrote:Just a note here that Chester's account will remain locked. Libel, legal issue, non-negotiable, etc.

I'd go into the rationale but something has come up that will command most of my attention for the next few days and I just can't spare the time. Priorities.
Thanks for the update Pyrrho. I think your decision is a good one FWIW.
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Re: A Radio Challenge

Post by Roberto Muehlenkamp » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:04 am

Now I'll have a look at the article that Fredo is so proud of.

It is headed Zyklon-B and the German Delousing Chambers and is a showpiece of Bergian coulda-shoulda-woulda technobabble.

Berg's argument is essentially the following: delousing chambers employing Zyklon B as a pest killer had a mechanism for circulating the poison throughout the chamber, and if the technically clever Germans had wanted to gas people in homicidal gas chambers, they would have endowed these chambers with a circulation mechanism akin to that which was employed in the delousing chambers. Instead evidence points to a comparatively primitive and, according to Berg, ineffective method, and this means that the evidence must be false and there were never any homicidal gassings.

Berg's reasoning so fascinated a "Revisionist" debating team that they made Berg's circulation techno-babble one of their arguments during a debate that took place in 2004 on the now extinct RODOH forum. The contenders were the "Negationist Team" (NT), led in theory by the defunct Robert Countess and in practice by Berg's disciple Scott Smith, and the "Veritas Team" (VT), led by Steve Mock,. a veteran critic of "Revisionist" nonsense. The debate ended after the VT's 3rd response (it should be said in fairness that one of the reasons for there being no further follow-up from the NT may have been a severe accident suffered by Scott Smith, which had him tied to a hospital bed with complicated fractures for half a year or so).

What follows is the part of the VT's 2nd response, posted on 06.08.2004, that deals with the NT's obviously Berg-inspired argument about the supposed indispensability of a circulation system (Kreislauf) in the homicidal gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau.
"The Church of Kreislauf"
________________________________________
G. "The Church of Kreislauf" - Part VI of "NEGATIONIST TEAM 2nd Response 6/22/2004"

This one we will make brief. We might limit ourselves to requiring our opponents to provide evidence in support of their assertions, which they haven't. Our idea of politeness in debate, however, compels us to make just a few more comments.
Quote
________________________________________
NT: In Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II there was:

1) NO provision to heat the air,
________________________________________
As has been shown in the previous part of our response, it was not exactly critical or even necessary to have this provision. But there was a plan to preheat the morgues with the help of 3 forced draft installations, as March 6, 1943 letter from Karl Bischoff to Topf and Sons indicates (as quoted in R.J. van Pelt's report submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt libel trial):
Quote:
________________________________________
In accordance with your proposal, the department agrees that morgue 1 will be preheated with the air coming from the rooms with the 3 installations to generate the forced-draught. The supply and installation of the necessary ductwork and ventilators must follow as soon as possible. As you indicate in your letter, the work should begin this week. The supply and installation of the necessary ductwork and ventilators must follow as soon as possible. As you indicate in your letter, the work should begin this week.
________________________________________
These installations were soon out of order in crematorium II. But note the word "preheated", which indicates not simply the heating, but heating before a certain operation. Normal morgues may or may not need heating, but they don't need to be "preheated".

Ironically, our opponents allude to this document the sentence before their denial of the LK1 heating:
Quote:
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To Summarize from the work of Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers (NY:1989), the basement "Leichenkeller 1" of Krema II had a ventilation fan which drew air from vents in the attic of the building and discharged it into the subterranean room below from the triangular ducts in the upper ceiling corners.

The air exited the room through ventilation openings built into the brickwork of the wall at the bottom and discharged it from the attic vents in the upper building.

The reason that air was not drawn directly from the outside but was pre-heated slightly from the long feeder piping is quite obvious in that a morgue cannot be allowed to freeze. In addition, it must be kept cool--which is why it was built underground in the first place.
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Thus, they destroy their own case without even noticing it. Readers should also note that our opponents would like to have their cake and eat it too. They argue that Leichenkeller 1 was simply a morgue and that it wasn't heated and that morgues should be heated. We think that they should make up their minds. They may also try to explain why the forced draft installations in crematorium II were (apparently) not restored for the use of LK1 as a morgue, why the question of the preheating of the morgue was raised so late and why it was raised not by architects but by the firm Topf and Sons. But let's get back to the heating issue.

R. J. van Pelt quotes judge Jan Sehn, who investigated Auschwitz soon after the war:
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[...]After undressing they were driven through a corridor to the actual gas chamber (Leichenkeller 1), which had previously been heated with the aid of portable coke braziers. This heating was necessary for the better evaporation of the hydrogen cyanide.
Jan Sehn, "Concentration and Extermination Camp at Oswiecim (Auschwitz-Birkenau),' in Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, German Crimes in Poland, 2 vols. (Warsaw: Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland, 1946-7)[...]
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This statement is most probably based on eyewitness testimonies and it shows that the chambers were preheated, one way or another. And we didn't even take the heat generated by hundreds and thousands of bodies in a closed space into account!
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NT: 2) NO provision to blow air through the pile of Zyklon pellets supposedly lowered into the chamber from a can, or otherwise dumped into wire-mesh introduction columns from holes in the roof, according to the "eyewitnesses," and

3) NO provision to recirculate the air in a closed-loop during the presumed gassing phase, as one would expect from a real gaschamber.

The Negationist Team insists that the point of our argument is not lost upon the reader: the supposed gaschamber LK-1 had no means of recirculating the air and gas mixture, nor heating the Zyklon pellets!
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These points were covered in the previous section of our present response. In short, while these "points" may not be lost on the reader, what remains extremely difficult for any sane reader to locate is their relevance to the basic issue of the debate. Has the Negationist team shown that events could not have transpired the way that the Veritas team contends without these elements? No.

Van Pelt sums it up nicely in his report:
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[...]It is undoubtedly true that packing the gas chamber with people did not aid the rapid circulation of the hydrogen cyanide. Yet the design of the hollow, perforated columns did help to allow the gas to reach the higher reaches of the gas chamber, where the air was not displaced by the bodies, and where the heavy panting of panicking 2,000 people, or less, would-so one would assume-cause some circulation.[...]
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If our esteemed opponents feel that this would not be enough to successfully gas people, we will let them present the numerical calculations proving the improbability of such gassings. Quoting the articles about fumigation procedures and showing nifty graphs of uncertain relevance won't be taken as a substitute.
In this response, the VT further addressed the NT's musings, obviously also based on Berg's article, about the possibility of gassing people inside railway cars in tunnels or barns used for delousing trains (as they could have done it that way and it would have been so much more practical than transporting the victims to extermination camps and gassing them there, according to Berg/NT, the fact that the Nazis didn't employ this so much better method is proof, in the bizarre reasoning of Berg and his admirers, that their heroes didn't conduct homicidal mass gassings, and this "proof" is supposed to invalidate all evidence to the contrary):
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NT: Trains full of passengers marked for death could have been wheeled into fumigation barns, gassed with CO, and then driven to any location for disposal.
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Boy, how spectacularly practical, especially the ensuing process of opening railway car after railway car and dragging the bodies out of the fumigation barn to wherever they would have been incinerated, undressing them (damn that rigor mortis!) then cleaning the cars of blood and excrement before sending the train out again to fetch the next batch, while somebody launders the severely soiled clothes.

And we thought that our opponents expected their "engineering principles" or "process engineering" to make mass killing and looting more effective...

Not to mention the cost. If applying that process (carbon monoxide gas out of a bottle) in homicidal gas vans was already considered too expensive, go figure what our opponents' "process engineers" from the WVHA would have said about doing it with a train, which would presumably have required as many bottles of CO as the train had cars.

Oh, we've almost forgot: it would be hard to make a selection in such circumstances. No selections, no labor force, which Nazis sorely needed. Oops!
The NT returned to the Kreislauf argument in their 3rd response posted on 29.09.2004, their arguments being addressed as follows in the VT's 3rd response posted on 26.12.2004:
Re: WORSHIPPING ON THE ALTER OF NON SEQUITUR
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"REVISIONIST" NON SEQUITUR SCIENCE (II)

Kreislauf / Cremation / Typhus

But the Big Daddy Herring is brought to the front of the pack in Section 5 of their submission, the great Church of Kreislauf. We’re glad that our opponents show a little bit of honesty here:
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This "Kreislauf" doctrine is so important to the discussion of REAL gas chambers that the reader should be advised to heed this tenet as Gospel and never forget its significance in the discussion of the alleged homicidal gas chambers.

That's why we call it the "Church of Kreislauf." Jot down this point and don't forget it.
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It is telling that they would make such a trivial technical speculation the gospel of their religion. Once again it must be noted that as good as the N-team are at telling us how they would have gone about more effectively killing hundreds of thousands of people, they have yet to explain how the lack of air recirculation renders the Veritas case and the evidence it is based on impossible or even improbable. And we thought we were here to discuss history, not catechism.

In our previous response on this topic we wrote:
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VT: If our esteemed opponents feel that this would not be enough to successfully gas people, we will let them present the numerical calculations proving the improbability of such gassings. Quoting the articles about fumigation procedures and showing nifty graphs of uncertain relevance won't be taken as a substitute.
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Yet they begin their response with the same nonsense:
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NT: We have already shown how Degesch fumigation chambers worked—and we have cited papers from wartime journals detailing the process. We really can’t make it simpler to understand.
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Guys, we couldn’t care less about Degesch fumigation chambers. We really can’t make it simpler to understand.

One can’t compare homicidal gas chambers and fumigation chambers because completely different principles are involved. Where exactly is the comparison beyond the fact that they both employ Zyklon-B? Both a swimming pool and a clothes washer use water - will our opponents express the same incredulity at the prospect of a swimming pool built without a gyrator? The fact that we even have to address this abject silliness as the centrepiece of their case demonstrates the desperate nature of the revisionist argument.

There must be mechanical recirculation in the fumigation chamber because gas must permeate inanimate objects, not merely contact breathing, moving human beings. All of the "Kreislauf" necessary for the purposes of the SS was provided by the victims' lungs, and if the Negationists wish to prove otherwise it is up to them to show that hundreds and thousands of people did not provide enough heat and motion in order to enable mass murder.
Cute little "ginger", who was so impressed by Berg's techno-babble, would do well to read the above-quoted comments to that rubbish. After she has reported her impressions, we might be treated of the amusing spectacle of Reverend Berg, the Church of Kreislauf's preacher, trying to reassure the concerned sheep in his flock.