Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

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Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:35 am

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek wrote:Image

Or this maybe:

Image

Have you pick :)

Sydney Morning Herald
Date: 05/05/99

GEORGE RYBA

For a memorable 31/2; years, I was a Polish political prisoner in Auschwitz. Beginning in October 1941, we prisoners were put to work building New Camp No 2 (Birkenau) to accommodate more than 200,000 new prisoners. As a construction electrician, I worked installing electrical power in four gas chambers and the adjacent crematoria. Later, during gassing, wires and cables were often ripped off by victims gasping for air and writhing in the agony of asphyxiation. We had to repair such damage when the still convulsive bodies were being lifted up for cremation.

Dozens of my Jewish friends in the camp died by gassing. Seven of my close non-Jewish friends (five Poles, one Slovene and one Corsican), unable to carry out heavy work when weakened by typhus and malaria, were thrown naked in winter frost, one on top of another, like sardines, screaming onto a truck, 80 to a load, for the 15-minute journey to the gas chamber.
In the aftermath of the German defeat at Stalingrad, from the middle of 1943, the Nazis restricted gassing to Jews and Gypsies and still managed to exterminate 1.5 million people before the Red Army liberated Auschwitz in 1945.

I was still there till about three weeks before liberation, when the SS demolition squads were blasting away anything indicative of what had been going on in Auschwitz for nearly five years.

All this I described in painful detail while giving evidence against Himmler's deputies, Kaltenbrunner and Pohl, and eight SS leaders during the first two main trials of war criminals at Nuremberg in 1945-46. My testimony withstood long and forceful cross-examination by dozens of the best German lawyers defending the Nazi elite.

[...]

George Ryba, a Sydney resident, is a survivor of Auschwitz and was a leader of the camp's underground resistance.

...........

Majdanek death toll: 1.5 million

Nazi Mass Killing Laid Bare in Camp

Victims Put at 1,500,000 in Huge Death Factory of Gas Chambers and Crematories

William H. Lawrence
The New York Times
August 30, 1944
Page 1


LUBLIN, Poland, Aug. 27 (Delayed) -- I have just seen the most terrible place on the face of the earth -- the German concentration camp at Maidanek, which was a veritable River Rouge for the production of death, in which it is estimated by Soviet and Polish authorities that as many as 1,500,000 persons from nearly every country in Europe were killed in the last three years.

I have been all through the camp, inspecting its hermetically sealed gas chambers, in which the victims were asphyxiated, and five furnaces in which the bodies were cremated and I have talked with German officers attached to the camp, who admitted quite frankly that it was a highly systemized place for annihilation, although they, of course, denied any personal participation in the murders.

I have seen the skeletons of bodies the Germans did not have time to burn before the Red Army swept into Lublin on July 23, and I have seen such evidence as bone ash still in the furnaces and piled up beside them ready to be taken to near-by fields, on which it was scattered as fertilizer for cabbages.

Ten Mass Graves Opened

I have been to Krempitski, ten miles to the east, where I saw three of ten opened mass graves and looked upon 368 partly decomposed bodies of men, women and children who had been executed individually in a variety of cruel and horrible means. In this forest alone, the authorities estimate, there are more than 300,000 bodies.

It is impossible for this correspondent to state with any certainty how many persons the Germans killed here. Many bodies unquestionably were burned and not nearly all the graves in this vicinity had been opened by the time I visited the scene.

But I have been in a wooden warehouse at the camp, approximately 150 feet long, in which I walked across literally tens of thousands of shoes spread across the floor like grain in a half-filled elevator. There I saw shoes of children as young as 1 year old. There were shoes of young and old men or women. Those I saw were all in bad shape -- since the Germans used this camp not only to exterminate their victims, but also as a means of obtaining clothing for the German people -- but some obviously had been quite expensive. At least one pair had come from America, for it bore a stamp, "Goodyear welt."

I have been through a warehouse in downtown Lublin in which I saw hundreds of suitcases and literally tens of thousands of pieces of clothing and personal effects of people who died here and I have had the opportunity of questioning a German officer, Herman Vogel, 42, of Millheim, who admitted that as head of the clothing barracks he had supervised the shipment of eighteen freightcar loads of clothing to Germany during a two month period and that he knew it came from the bodies of persons who had been killed at Maidanek.

Evidence Found Convincing

This is a place that must be seen to be believed. I have been present at numerous atrocity investigations in the Soviet Union, but never have I been confronted with such complete evidence, clearly establishing every allegation made by those investigating German crimes.

After inspection of Maidanek, I am now prepared to believe any story of German atrocities, no matter how savage, cruel and depraved.

As one of a group of nearly thirty foreign correspondents brought to Poland on the invitation of the Polish Committee of National Liberation, I also had an opportunity to sit with the special mixed Soviet-Polish Atrocities Investigation Commission, headed by Vice-chairman Andrey Witos of the Polish Committee, and to question six witnesses, including three German officers -- Vogel, Theodore Shoelen and Tanton Earness -- who will probably face trial for their part in the administration of the death camp.

Responsible Germans Listed

For the correspondents, the commission's prosecutor, a Pole, summed up the evidence taken. He said it had been decided that these Germans bore the main responsibility for the crimes committed at Maidanek and in the Krempitski Forest: General Globenik, Gestapo, and SS Chief of the Lublin district. Governor Wendler of the Lublin district, described as a distant relative of Heinrich Himmler. Former Governor Zoerner of the Lublin district. Lisske, who had charge of all the concentration camps in the Lublin district. General Weiss, who was in charge of the Maidanek camp. Company Commander Anton Tumann, who at one time had charge of Maidanek. Mussfeld, who was in charge of the crematorium. Klopmann, who was chief of the German political department in the Lublin district.

It is impossible in the space here available to relate details of all the evidence of crimes we saw and heard, but for the benefit of those who have not had the opportunity to see with their own eyes, here is the story as it came from the lips of a German who had been a prisoner in Maidanek and was left behind by the retreating Germans. He is Hans Staub, a 31-year-old, tall, husky man with close-cropped hair, who had been imprisoned for engaging in black market meat operations in Germany.

Despite German orders that prisoners were to keep out of the crematorium area, he managed to slip inside the brick fence one day and secrete himself about the time a truck loaded with about a dozen persons drove up. Among them was a Polish woman he estimated to have been 28 or 29 years old.

The prisoners were guarded by tommy-gunners, who ordered them to alight from the truck and undress. The woman refused and this enraged Mussfeld, who beat her. She screamed and Mussfeld lost his temper, shouting, "I'll burn you alive."

According to Staub, Mussfeld then directed two attendants to grab the woman and bind her arms and legs. They then threw her on an iron stretcher, still clothed, and pushed her body into the oven.

"I heard one loud scream, saw her hair flame and then she disappeared into the furnace," Staub said.

According to several witnesses, the peak death production day for Maidanek was November 3, 1943, when for some reason not made clear the Germans executed a total of 18,000 to 20,000 prisoners by a variety of means, including shooting, hanging and gassing.

Camp Covers 670 Acres

This is Maidanek as I saw it. It is situated about a mile and a half from the middle of Lublin on the highroad between Chelm and Cracow. As one approaches he gets a view of the concentration camp almost identical with those pictured in American motion pictures. The first site is a twelve-foot-high double barbed-wire fence, which was charged with electricity.

Inside you see group after group of trim green buildings, not unlike the barracks in an Army camp in the United States. There were more than 200 such buildings. Outside the fence there were fourteen high machine-gun turrets and at one edge were kennels for more than 200 especially trained, savage man-tracking dogs used to pursue escaped prisoners. The whole camp covered an area of 670 acres.

As we entered the camp the first place at which we stopped obviously was the reception centre and it was near here that one entered the bath house. Here Jews, Poles, Russians and in fact representatives of a total of twenty-two nationalities entered and removed their clothing, after which they bathed at seventy-two showers and disinfectants were applied.

Sometimes they went directly into the next room, which was hermetically sealed with apertures in the roof down which the Germans threw opened cans of "Zyklon B", a poison gas consisting of prussic acid crystals, which were a light blue chalky substance. This produced death quickly. Other prisoners were kept for long periods; the average, we were told, was about six weeks.

Near the shower house were two other death chambers fitted for either Zyklon gas or carbon monoxide. One of them was seventeen meters square and there, we were told, the Germans executed 100 to 110 persons at once. Around the floor of the room ran a steel pipe with an opening for carbon monoxide to escape at every twenty-five centimeters.

Victims' Death Watched

We were told the victims always received a bath in advance of execution because the hot water opened the pores and generally improved the speed with which the poison gas took effect. There were glass-covered openings in these death chambers so the Germans could watch the effect on their victims and determine when the time had come to remove their bodies. We saw opened and unopened cans of Zyklon gas that bore German labels.

About a mile from the gas chambers was the huge crematorium. Built of brick, it looked and was operated not unlike a small blast furnace for a steel mill, operating with coal as fuel fanned by an electrically operated blower. There were five openings on each side -- on one side the bodies were loaded in and on the other ashes were removed and the fire built up. Each furnace held five bodies at a time.

We were told it took fifteen minutes to fill each furnace and about ten to twelve minutes for the bodies to burn. It was estimated that the battery of furnaces had a capacity of 1,900 bodies a day.

Near the furnaces we saw a large number of partial and complete skeletons. Behind a brick enclosure near by were more than a score of bodies of persons who, we were told, had been killed by the Germans on the day the Red Army captured Lublin, which they did not have time to burn before fleeing.

Not far from the furnaces were a large number of earthenware urns, which investigating authorities said witnesses told them were used by the Germans for ashes of some of their victims, which they sold to families for prices ranging up to 2,500 marks.

We saw a concrete table near the furnace and asked its purpose. We were told the Germans laid the bodies of victims there just before cremation and knocked out gold teeth, which were salvaged. We were told that no bodies were accepted for cremation unless the chest bore a stamp certifying that it had been searched for gold teeth.

It is the purpose of the Polish Committee of National Liberation to keep the main parts of Maidanek just as it now exists as an exhibition of German brutality and cruelty for all posterity to see.

M. Witos struck the universal feeling of all who have seen the camp when he expressed regret that the section of American and British public opinion that favours a soft peace with the Germans will not have an opportunity in advance of the peace conference to look at this plain evidence of the brutality of the Germans practiced towards their victims.

Among the few Polish people whom we had an opportunity to talk there is a widespread sentiment for stronger means of vengeance against the Germans, and the belief that some of those directly responsible for Maidanek should be executed in the terrible death camp they themselves erected.
:) :D :lol: :mrgreen: :frown:

Jerzy

Nessie. Which version of "Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau" is you favorite one?
The one by KULA is a bit home-made but great:)
Jerzy

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:49 am

Continuing the reply to Bob's post #236

You say "This is nonsense, and Nessie must know it, his source is wikipedia:

Between April 1938 and April 1945, some 238,380 people of various nationalities including 350 Western Allied POWs were incarcerated in Buchenwald. One estimate places the number of deaths in Buchenwald at 56,000.

Thus this refers to entire period and to all peoples who ever came through the camp, they were not all housed there at particular period as this individual is suggesting!"

But that is a lie. I used another source as well and at no point did I use the entire period camp figures to calculate retort per person. What a death rate of 25% does show is work till you die. It is evidenced as well, yet you go on to lie again when you say "His "it was built to meet the plan of work and die." is unfounded so no wonder he did not back it up again. I already refuted this nonsense.". To say a camp built specifically to house slave workers, which has 6 retorts and an overall death rate of 25% is not a place to go to work and die is head in the sand, la la la, I'm not looking!

As I have shown Buchenwald may not have been referred to as a death camp, but its actual functioning means it was a place to go and face death. You then say "Nessie failed to explain why they wanted much bigger capacity than in Auswhitz since Buchenwald was not extermination camp, and there were some 9 deaths per day in the mentioned period of muffle planning." which ignores how Buchenwald actually functioned, the plans to work till you die and yes, epidemics as well! Despite what you claim here "What? I thought that typhus epidemics are myth according to Nessie and Zimmerman! Or this is somehow magically related only to Auschwitz and there was some magic protection against typhus?" I have never denied there were epidemics. Please follow what I have said, which is even with epidemics, the ratio or retorts per head and ability to cremate people was way in excess of what epidemics could kill.

You go on to play with numbers when replying to my evidence that the ratio of retots per head at Buchenwald was lower than at Auschwitz. "This is again lie since Nessie is already familiar with correct data, population during the planning (spring 1942) and installation (Aug/Oct 1942) of the new muffles was some 8,000 on average. Nessie falsely used population from December 1943 and 1944/45 thus he comitted "little" fraud to achieve his goal and to raise number of prisoners per retort. Exactly like Zimmerman."

Nice of you to acknowledge I am working with the correct data, so your jibe at my sources and claims of lying are proved by you to be a lie. So you show when the retorts were built the ratio was 1 to 1333. It is not a fraud to show how that changed as the population grew.

"The 6 retort crematorium was built in 1942 and by 1943 there were 37,000 prisoners there, or 1 retort per 6000, 3 times more prisoners per retort than at Birkenau. That prisoner population kept rising to almost double by the end of 1942, with no extra retorts planned or added. There was a typhus epidemic there in 1945 by when there were over 80,000 prisoners in the camp and its sub camps or 1 retort to 13,300 prisoners."

So buy your own standards you committed a fraud by only showing one set of statistics to suit your argument. Whereas I showed a number of statistics to give a truer more accurate picture of what the ratio at Buchenwald was.

Bob, this is the pot calling the kettle black

"btw - if you are not going to stop with your deceptions, dodging and ignorance, i will not respond in the future no matter if i will/will not receive ban on username. This is my last warning, stop with your strategy since this renders whole debate absurd."

I am happy to debate you in the style you debate with me. If you do not like that, alter your style.
Last edited by Nessie on Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:49 am

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
So according to you the Nazi response to high death rates from an epidemic was not to fight the epidemic, but to prepare for ever increasing epidemics and have a massive ability to cremate those who perish..

Hello Nessie- The Germans made huge efforts to fight typhus and save inmate lives....
Because of conditions in the camp at the beginning of 1943, they planned also delousing chambers (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 55-69.; chapter 5.) and bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria. (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 151-155.) Apparently not very smart and incompatible to want to install bathing installations for whole camp if we follow orthodox literature and place was already adapted and used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room for victims during the alleged secret extermination operation! Crematoria themselves are instruments of hygiene as pointed out even by Pressac since they are there to be able to deal with bodies affected by typhus/diseases.

This of course again proves that one of the most active uses here, Nessie, who wants to argue against revisionists really does not know revisionist´s arguments and evidence or even orthodox literature when he said:

But building Kremas is not fighting an epidemic. It is for dealing with the dead.

Instead of this, he lies about documents:

what did the 4,756 person who were being cremated in a day (as reported by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff in June 1943)

But this "4,756 person were being cremated in day" is not stated in the document of course, he completely invented it.

Good luck David on this forum.

Jerzy, don´t forget this version from Pelt (second image).

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am

Bob wrote:Nessie ignored my warning, ok, so I will address only two points not related to subject:
Attack me all you want, I will forever be more civil than you in these debates. I know your tactics of trying to control the subject, dictate the topic and your jibes to try and force me to accept what you have said.
This is again false, I do not attack Nessie, but his arguments and "approach" he uses, that is quite a difference, he is the one who argues ad hominem and calls peoples antisemites, neo-nazis and etc. He thus received what he deserved for his debate style and insults, complete exposure of his deceptions.
That is what I mean by arrogant. I can also use you technique and say it is a lie. You are so sure what you say is the case and that is the end of it you are unable to even contemplate others may disagree with you and your arguments. Sorry Bob, but I am not convinced by your so called proof.
Yes, Nessie can use this alleged "technique", his big problem will be the fact that he is not able to back it up since there are no lies from me. I backed up his lies and deceptions as shown in comments. Nessie can disagree, no problem but without any evidence this has no value. When i disagree, i always back up why and I refute opponent´s arguments because declarations like "I do not believe" "I am not convinced" "I disagree" are no counter argument.
Sorry Bob, but I am not convinced by your so called proof.
I learned long time ago that Nessie cannot be convinced, his mind is already made up, he does not want to be confused with facts and figures.

Case closed, debate with someone who stubbornly refuses to reads opponent´s comments and to follow grasp them is like to talk to wall. Anyway, thank you for your effort.
Bob, you have never quite realised that I use a different style of debate with you from others. I use your style against you. You have used plenty of ad hominems. I remember well the photo of men in KKK outfits, doing Nazi salutes with holohoax placards, which caused you to say you you could not say what they represented :lol:

I have shown where you have lied, especially when you made up a quote and then called me a liar over that.

When I have said, sorry Bob I disagree with you, it has been backed up by evidence.

I also learned you cannot be convinced and debates with you are like talking to a wall. I still make the effort as I think it is worthwhile chipping away at you and other revisionist/deniers to keep you and your false beliefs in check.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:02 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
So according to you the Nazi response to high death rates from an epidemic was not to fight the epidemic, but to prepare for ever increasing epidemics and have a massive ability to cremate those who perish..

Hello Nessie- The Germans made huge efforts to fight typhus and save inmate lives.
The entire Sauna complex was built to save lives. The Germans had a
vigorous program of educating detainees to keep clean. Several German doctors
even came down with typhus while saving inmates' lives.
Buildings were regularly fumigated.
Inmates were regularly deloused and vaccinated.

You can bash the Germans for many things but not for making major efforts
to fight typhus among the detainees.


I can bash why the Nazis made major efforts to stop typhus in the camps. They did not want to lose too many slave workers at the same time and they did not want typhus spreading outside the camps. I can also bash the idea that all the retorts at Birkenau were built only to deal with typhus.

Please tell me what the 4,756 people who were cremated in a day in June 1943 died of? There was no epidemic then.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:10 pm

Bob wrote:......

........

he lies about documents:

what did the 4,756 person who were being cremated in a day (as reported by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff in June 1943)

But this "4,756 person were being cremated in day" is not stated in the document of course, he completely invented it.

.......
From Mattogno, Para 6.1

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...a letter sent on June 28, 1943 by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff, the Chief of the Auschwitz Central Construction Office, to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler, the Chief of the Economic-Administrative Main Office Amtsgruppe C. In this letter he mentions the following 24-hour capacities of the crematoria of Auschwitz and Birkenau:[135]
� old crematorium I: 340 persons � crematorium IV: 768 persons
� crematorium II: 1,440 persons � crematorium V: 768 persons
� crematorium III: 1,440 persons

Total: 4,756 persons"

which he sites from the Rossiski Gosudarstvenni Vojenni Archiv, Moscow. Where is the lie Bob? What did the 4,756 people cremated one day in June 1943 die of? There was no epidemic.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:18 pm

Bob wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
So according to you the Nazi response to high death rates from an epidemic was not to fight the epidemic, but to prepare for ever increasing epidemics and have a massive ability to cremate those who perish..

Hello Nessie- The Germans made huge efforts to fight typhus and save inmate lives....
Because of conditions in the camp at the beginning of 1943, they planned also delousing chambers (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 55-69.; chapter 5.) and bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria. (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 151-155.) Apparently not very smart and incompatible to want to install bathing installations for whole camp if we follow orthodox literature and place was already adapted and used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room for victims during the alleged secret extermination operation! Crematoria themselves are instruments of hygiene as pointed out even by Pressac since they are there to be able to deal with bodies affected by typhus/diseases.

This of course again proves that one of the most active uses here, Nessie, who wants to argue against revisionists really does not know revisionist´s arguments and evidence or even orthodox literature when he said:

But building Kremas is not fighting an epidemic. It is for dealing with the dead.

...........
Whilst you happily criticise bathing installations in gas chambers, how are you able to justify plans for bathing installations in morgues?

You are the one who is trying to conflate retorts to epidemics and leave it at that. If you are expecting an epidemic, as the world has faced on many occasions, do you you see a wide scale building of retorts? No you see a wide scale preparation of vaccines and hospital facilities. Any morgues come once the epidemic starts and are temporary. Birkenau is the exception, not the rule.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:49 pm

So Nessie went even more deeply to personal insults and misuse the fact that i decided to not debate with him anymore. But not so easy.
I remember well the photo of men in KKK outfits, doing Nazi salutes with holohoax placards, which caused you to say you you could not say what they represented :lol:
This is outrageous lie, here is my answer:
Nessie - Do you think the men in the photo are anti-semitic, pro-Nazi, Holocaust deniers? Yes, no or not sure?

Bob - I actually need more than one photo to judge peoples Nessie. You want to know who are these peoples, but i can´t tell you what they are since I see only photo, I need more than photo to judge peoples on the photo. You have no problem to label them as neonazis, antisetmies or what with using just one picture, but I need more, so deal with it.

Don´t know what is strange about to say that I need more information about these peoples on the picture to be able to judge them, i need to know who are they, why they say what they say, why they have these signs, what are they arguments, what is their message, what they really wanted to show with their gestures if everything is as it looks and etc. I am not so primitive to judge peoples only thanks to one photograph.
I have shown where you have lied, especially when you made up a quote and then called me a liar over that.
Just another outrageous lie claimed everytime when Nessie in in the corner:
Nessie - There are many cases where courts rely totally on witnesses. There may be no physical evidence or it has been destroyed.

OK, so you ignore the answer elsewhere, so the Nazis destroyed evidence when the Action Reinhard camps were destroyed.

Bob - Nessie also made next interesting claim "absence of physical evidence prove crime" since absence of evidence prove that evidence was destroyed according to Nessie.

Nessis now denies that what he said means what I have wrote and accused me of lying.


I based this quote "Nessie claim that absence of physical evidence prove crime" on these Nessie´s quote "There may be no physical evidence or it has been destroyed." and because Nessie refused to explain me who destroyed this evidence which doesn´t exist, my quote is still valid, becuase the only logical explanation of Nessie´s quote about destroying, is that "Germans destroyed physical evidence of their crime, so absence of these evidence prove that has been detroyed by criminals to hide their crime". Nessie can clarify his postition to prove that "Nessie claim that absence of physical evidence prove crime" is free invention from Bob.

I based it clearly on your quote "There may be no physical evidence or it has been destroyed." " My quote is the only possible explanation of your claim, if you don´t agree, I challenge you again to clearly say who destroyed evidence in this quote from you to finally solve this issue which you still bring up when you are desperate.

Ok, so here it is, you only confirmed that i did not invent it and i was right, you clearly said in your quote, that absence of evidence prove crime, because according to you this missing evidence of crime had been destroyed by criminals themselves. Thanks finally for your confirmation.
In short - Nessie explained that physical evidence for crime in camps is missing because it has been destroyed (he didn´t say by whom), I used this claim to write "Nessie also made next interesting claim "absence of physical evidence prove crime" since absence of evidence proves that evidence was destroyed according to Nessie.", because the only possibility was that Nazis were the ones who allegedly destroyed this evidence which is now missing. Nowhere i claimed that this is his genuine quote, but clearly demonstration of idea of his claim (as i clearly explained) as is common in books where such an ideas are commonly in quotation marks without the italic, this quote even contains my grammar error so this fact is obvious. He then accused my of lying and that I made it up ignoring all what I said. Later after many accusations and fuss, he finally confirmed (as shown above) that this physical evidence for crime has been destroyed by Nazis to cover their crimes, he finally confirmed that I was right when I demonstrated silly idea of his claim. This whole issue is thus outrageous logical fallacy, because he can´t claims that physical evidence of crime has been destroyed if nobody ever saw/investigate it or when nobody was able to prove that ever existed. With this approach, every human being on the world can be find guilty with explanation - physical evidence for your crime is missing because you destroyed it and because you destroyed it, we know you committed this crime. Case closed, Nessie will accuses me again, will attempts damage control, no doubt since this is again very stupid idea from him, and all of these instead of simple admission that this was wrong.
When I have said, sorry Bob I disagree with you, it has been backed up by evidence.
Another lie, this thread is full of evidence. For example his claim that peoples were sent to Buchenwald to die there. Where exactly is his evidence for this plan? Nowhere.

Nessie has quoted:
From Mattogno, Para 6.1

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...a letter sent on June 28, 1943 by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff, the Chief of the Auschwitz Central Construction Office, to SS-Brigadeführer Kammler, the Chief of the Economic-Administrative Main Office Amtsgruppe C. In this letter he mentions the following 24-hour capacities of the crematoria of Auschwitz and Birkenau:[135]
� old crematorium I: 340 persons � crematorium IV: 768 persons
� crematorium II: 1,440 persons � crematorium V: 768 persons
� crematorium III: 1,440 persons

Total: 4,756 persons"

which he sites from the Rossiski Gosudarstvenni Vojenni Archiv, Moscow. Where is the lie Bob? What did the 4,756 people cremated one day in June 1943 die of? There was no epidemic.
Dear Nessie, your lie is firstly proven by your first step - you quoted document and you thus knew what is stated in the document. Now the second step, where exactly you see that letter about capacity ("purely theoretical" and "calculated" as Pressac informed us - 1989, p. 244; or as Nessie´s source informed us - "estimated capacity for 24 hours") of five crematoria contains passage which claims or suggests and etc. that "4,756 peoples were being or were cremated in June 1943 or one day in June 1943" as you falsely claims? Quote direct passage or passage which suggests such a thing to solve once for all if you are again proven liar or not.
There was no epidemic.
I do not have data for June 1943, but in January 1943, mortality was roughly some 4,500, in February 1943, mortality was some 5,900 detainees, they ordered complete closure of the camp on Feb 12, 1943, then rich correspondence deals with the reasons which is stated as typhus and orders fumigation activity, and in May they finally started program called "special measures for the improvement of hygiene installations" - and all of these because there was no typhus epidemic, documents are probably forgeries and Nessie´s source Zimmerman "refuted" revisionist´s "typhus myth". Just ridiculous.

And because i already provided this information to Nessie thus he was familiar with it, he is again proven liar or he proved again his terrible ability to grasp content of my comments.

But of course as he informed us, according to him or Zimmerman, typhus epidemics are "myth" and only some two thousands peoples died during the entire period covered by death books (approx. some 50%) or this isn´t myth as he recently contradicted himself. Take your pick.
Whilst you happily criticise bathing installations in gas chambers, how are you able to justify plans for bathing installations in morgues?
Here again his terrible ability to grasp a content of my comments as usual or just another lie. So where exactly I claimed or suggested that these bathing installations were planned to be installed in gas chambers? I am completely lost to find it, all what I have found is that they planned "bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria."!

I provided Nessie with source, he ignored it and asked, but answer is simple - yes...i am able to justify it, and how is provided in source i provided.

The rest had been already refuted.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:59 pm

Bob you can dodge all you want how to interpret the KKK photo. What that tells me is you dodge evidence which does not suit your case.

Your convoluted justification for lying about what I did not say about abscence or destruction of evidence is pathetic. I have never said or argued in any way that abscene or destruction of evidence proves a crime. It does not prove anything. Your repeated lying on this issue shows you do not have the balls to admit to making a mistake. The stupid idea was all yours as you show in your quote and response.

The evidence that people were sent to Buchenwald to work and die there is from the Wannsee Protocol, that a crematorium was built there and the death rates.

I see you are having to try and use convoluted language again to try and explain away the letter listing numbers of cremations in June 1943. Fact is that letter is showing how many people were being crematedat that time. You go on to dodge the issue by speaking of an epidemic 6 months earlier.

Then you go on to show your inability to understand basics again. There is no disputing there was typhus at the camps. The myth is to claim that all the Kremas were built for was to deal with epidemics. Zimmerman's title of typhus myth was referring to the denier/revisionist claims about typhus. A myth started by Butz in the 1970s for which there is no evidence from the time. It is at best a hypothesis, that is all.

Your claim about bathing in basements is in post #243 where you say that the place to have for bathing is, according to orthodox literature a homicidal gas chamber. You have said there was no homicidal gas chamber instead the leichenkeller was a morgue.

Your lies and misunderstandings and dodges are there for all to see.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:44 pm

Bob you can dodge all you want how to interpret the KKK photo. What that tells me is you dodge evidence which does not suit your case.
"Someone" is dodging, but not me. you clearly lied about my answer.
Your convoluted justification for lying about what I did not say about abscence or destruction of evidence is pathetic. I have never said or argued in any way that abscene or destruction of evidence proves a crime. It does not prove anything. Your repeated lying on this issue shows you do not have the balls to admit to making a mistake. The stupid idea was all yours as you show in your quote and response.
Nessie´s way how to deal with arguments, he simply ignores them and he spreads more accusations.
The evidence that people were sent to Buchenwald to work and die there is from the Wannsee Protocol, that a crematorium was built there and the death rates.
Please, quote this alleged evidence from Wannsee minutes . Thank you in advance.
I see you are having to try and use convoluted language again to try and explain away the letter listing numbers of cremations in June 1943. Fact is that letter is showing how many people were being crematedat that time. You go on to dodge the issue by speaking of an epidemic 6 months earlier.
Nessie completely dodged simple question, because there is not a single word about "4,756 people were cremated or being cremated in June 1943 or on some day in June" Nessie had chance to explain it, he dodged, he is thus once for all proven liar.

That is not all, as Nessie informed us, his source is Mattogno/Deana, and they stated in Nessie´s source:

From a drawing of the Central Construction Office, it turns out that the damage had affected parts of the walls delimiting the chimney's center smoke channel.[169] Thus, this crematorium (II) remained inactive from May 17[170] to September 1, 1943,[171] and was doubtlessly operated only at reduced load between the beginning of April and May 16.

Crematorium III was in service from June 25 to December 31, and crematorium IV from March 22 to May 10.[172]

As for crematorium V, it was most likely in service at least until crematorium III was put into operation, in other words for less than three months, from April 4 to June 24.[173]


Thus Nessie deliberately omitted and ignored inconvenient information from his own source which clearly stated that crematoria II/IV/V were out of service precisely in the period of June 28 1943, and crematorium III just came into operation. One must then wonder how 4,756 peoples could be cremated in crematoria as this individual falsely claims and what is not even stated in the document.

This is how he treats evidence and own sources and he has enough impudence to blame others that they wrongly handle with evidence!
You go on to dodge the issue by speaking of an epidemic 6 months earlier.
Of course, this is again completely untrue accusation to hide his own blunders. Firstly, Nessie is not good in math as already shown and he is not good even in calendar months, since between the end of February and June 28, one can counts 3 months and 28 days!

Secondly, from September 1942 till January 1943, the average mortality was still very bad, some 4,300 per month, in February some 5,900 and construction of crematoria was urgent - so if Nessie denies that there was epidemic 3 months and 28 days earlier, he for sure is able to explain how mortality in March (this month follows after February and is 3rd and year has 12 months) onwards magically dropped or disappeared and why. He can for sure explain all the fuzz/documents about typhus, closure of the camp, Topf list for 2 for disinfestation ovens for crematorium II dated April 13, 1943, started operation for improving hygiene in May 1943 and other stuff mentioned in my previous comment.

So Nessie, for what reasons they did all of these actions during the first five months (January, February, March, April, May) of 1943?
There is no disputing there was typhus at the camps. The myth is to claim that all the Kremas were built for was to deal with epidemics. Zimmerman's title of typhus myth was referring to the denier/revisionist claims about typhus. A myth started by Butz in the 1970s for which there is no evidence from the time. It is at best a hypothesis, that is all.
Of course, refuted in previous comments, Nessie´s only way is to dodge and he ignores it like his source Zimmerman and spread their absurd claim and refuted claim about how some two thousands peoples died of typhus for approx. 50% period of the entire existence of the camp.!

Can Nessie explain for what reasons the German made so much fuzz and documents and effort about his some two thousands typhus victims and not about the tens of thousands victims which died because of some "mythical" reason which according to Nessie and Zimmerman was not typhus?
Your claim about bathing in basements is in post #243 where you say that the place to have for bathing is, according to orthodox literature a homicidal gas chamber.
Why Nessie did not quote relevant part as I had requested? Let see the reason:

they planned[..]bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria[...]Apparently not very smart and incompatible to want to install bathing installations for whole camp if we follow orthodox literature and place was already adapted and used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room

- there is not a single word about plan to install bathing installation in a gas chamber, I said "in the basements of crematoria", Nessie simply transformed this passage in his head to "bathing in gas chamber" thus he proved once for all that he knows nothing about basements of crematoria, for him basements means "gas chamber".
- this place - basement of crematorium and its two biggest rooms - was according to orthodox sources already adapted and used as a homicidal gas chamber and an undressing room for alleged victims, thus again nothing what Nessie claimed.

He thus lied again and no surprise he refused to quote me.
Your lies and misunderstandings and dodges are there for all to see.
His strategy to deal with unenviable situation is clear - attack is the best defense style, he throws unfounded dirt and hopes that some dirt will stick on me.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 pm

Nessie.
Don't forget to answer my question .You have to establish first the murder weapon which you don't have so far.
Then you will have to provide o body.Which you don't have as well.
Funeral-real or not -and cremation comes last.

Looks like you don't like Kula's fantasy.
Do you think this is more interesting?
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:25 am

It is worth keeping people reminded about how Bob is unwilling to make any comment on interpreting the KKK photo and his convoluted does not make sense argument so he can lie that I lied about what constitutes proof and what does not. They are examples of how Bob functions with evidence and show how he will only sensibly deal with evidence that agrees with his position of no Holocaust. If evidence is to the contrary he has to go into all sorts of tumbled arguments, which he thinks are clever, but they are virtually senseless.

Bob has decided that since this letter's descriptive uses 'estimate'

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkere ... -cap.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I cannot claim it is the total capacity and number of cremations being achieved. Mattogno does not use the estimate word in his reference,

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndcrema.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So any German speakers, please see if the estimate word is in the actual document and if so point it out. I will wait for an answer before passing any further comment. I want to see if Bob is doing that denier thing of finding something to cast doubt and then stopping with any further enquiry to see if such doubt is correct or not. For you to go on to say

"Nessie completely dodged simple question, because there is not a single word about "4,756 people were cremated or being cremated in June 1943 or on some day in June" Nessie had chance to explain it, he dodged, he is thus once for all proven liar."

is a nonsense as the letter is a detailed list of numbers of people next to each Krema at Auschwitz with a total of 4,756 for a 24 hour period. If Bob is going to try and claim that those people went to the Kremas fopr another reason and not to be cremated, he had better have a very very good reason fully evidenced for such a claim. Or else this is like his comments as he skirted round the clear evidence of the KKK photo and his convoluted argument that only he understands to try and claim I lied about evidence and proof.

Evidence from Wannsee that the plan was to be sent to camps to work and die

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution
the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East.
Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in
large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the
course of which action doubtless a large portion will be
eliminated by natural causes."

Yes I know Buchenwald was not in the east and they made armaments there, not road building. But the overall plan was forced deportation and work till you die, which is what happened to those at Buchenwald.

You go on to say "Thus Nessie deliberately omitted and ignored inconvenient information from his own source which clearly stated that crematoria II/IV/V were out of service precisely in the period of June 28 1943, and crematorium III just came into operation. One must then wonder how 4,756 peoples could be cremated in crematoria as this individual falsely claims and what is not even stated in the document." But at no point have I said the 4,756 was the maximum of consistent figure for cremations every day of every week. Even if it turns out to be an estimate of what could at best be achieved, it shows that compared to Topf's figures the Nazis were working the Kremas beyond what they had been told was possible and in doing so they suffered breakdowns. Why was it the Nazis were doing such a thing? Why did they have to work the retorts to an extreme level? Why indeed did the go to burn bodies in pits outside the Kremas? All of this suggests a hell of a lot of bodies were being cremated.

Now regarding reasons for that number of cremations, we are back to typhus. Yes my maths is poor and yes, my 6 months was an approximate too far, but your 3 months and 28 days is still out by 3 months and 28 days. The rest of what you say is all about a time before when the had been an epidemic. Not June 1943.

You say "so if Nessie denies that there was epidemic 3 months and 28 days earlier, he for sure is able to explain how mortality in March (this month follows after February and is 3rd and year has 12 months) onwards magically dropped or disappeared and why. He can for sure explain all the fuzz/documents about typhus, closure of the camp, Topf list for 2 for disinfestation ovens for crematorium II dated April 13, 1943, started operation for improving hygiene in May 1943 and other stuff mentioned in my previous comment. "

Firstly I do not deny a typhus epidemic, stop lying. Mortality drops as actions such as the use of Zyklon B is used to fight off the disease. I see Buchenwald achieved a huge drop off in the disease with its epidemic in 1945. Epidemics do come to an end, no magic involved.

You go to claim that preparations were made for 'hygiene' reasons and I say you are trying to conflate hygiene with typhus. Yet the typhus hypothesis first appeared with Butz in the 1970s. Is there anything, any document from the time that shows a direct link between Krema and typhus? Hygiene will be referring to not having dead bodies lying around, whatever the cause of death.

Here you are building a strawman "Can Nessie explain for what reasons the German made so much fuzz and documents and effort about his some two thousands typhus victims and not about the tens of thousands victims which died because of some "mythical" reason which according to Nessie and Zimmerman was not typhus?"

Typhus can affect the Nazis themselves, it can spread outside the camp if not kept in check, it reduces the slave workforce. Gassing people has none of those affects.

I did not link to this comment before as I was using my phone, now I am on my computer...

"Because of conditions in the camp at the beginning of 1943, they planned also delousing chambers (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 55-69.; chapter 5.) and bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria. (Carlo Mattogno, Auschwitz: The Case for Sanity, pp. 151-155.) Apparently not very smart and incompatible to want to install bathing installations for whole camp if we follow orthodox literature and place was already adapted and used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room for victims during the alleged secret extermination operation!"

That reads that the delousing chambers and bathing installations were planned for a place in the basement already adapted (according to the orthodox side) as an undressing room and gas chamber. But according to you that place in the basement is the morgue of the Krema and not a gas chamber. So whereabouts in the Krema was the bathing installation supposed to be? You are not making any sense here.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:41 am

"It is worth keeping people reminded about how Bob..etc"
Mister.
Cut the crap.
The topic is: "Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau"
I provided you with few different version of this "gas introduction". including 2 "mis-labeled" WHERE -ONCE AGAIN-THE SAME PICTURE SHOWS US THE SAME SOVIET ON THE ROOF BUT THE CAPTIONS TELL US THAT THE FIRST IS FROM AUSCHWITZ ,THE SECOND ONE FROM MAJDANEK.
Have your pick mate.

Stick to a subject and don't waste my time any more.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:01 pm

True, the topic has wavered from gas introduction to number of retorts and reason why.

As for gas introduction my position is that the roof of Krema II was not built with holes in it. They were introduced afterwards, evidenced by the coverings seen in the train photo and the marks seen in the aerial photos. Then the Nazis blew the Krema roof up and the Soviets tampered with it. So there is not clear, definitive sign of the holes anymore, nor their measurements. So how the mesh devices fitted through the roof is not clear either.

The state of the Krema roof now is too poor and tampered with the make any definitive conclusions from it. The deniers/revisionists stop with the roof when they say no holes no holocaust. That is poor research as they use corrupted evidence, find the conclusion they want to out of it and then stop, denying all other evidence as a lie.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:11 pm

"The deniers/revisionists stop with the roof when they say no holes no holocaust."
Some deniers like me tend to agree with Germar Rudolf, ex-dr of chemistry from Max Planck institute:

Image

No blue color on walls -no holocaust :)

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:00 pm

The blue colour is explained by the length of time clothing was deloused compared to the time people spent in the chambers being gassed. Each time a batch of clothes was deloused it stayed in a the chamber longer and subsequently there was more time for the gas to react with the walls to produce the colour. There were also fewer occasions when the chamber was vented.

So the more colour you see the longer the chamber was used for clothes and the more clothes were deloused there.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:13 pm

"The blue colour is explained by the length of time clothing was deloused compared to the time people spent in the chambers being gassed. "


According to many eye-witness (and to F.Piper ex-director of State Museum in Oswiecim,The same who fall on his face after the interview with David Cole) "gassing" was going around the clock.
Some witness mentioned even the power-generators providing the power for reflectors to keep going during the night. :mrgreen:
Plenty of time to get the walls blue.
Don't you think?
Up to 20 000 a day gassed!!!
Those walls were gassed to mortar!!!!! :)

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:51 pm

This will be short, I am simply no more interested in exposing all of his fallacies about origins of crematoria, number of muffles and etc. since he repeats his fallacies over and over and is thus is clear that he will never stop.

Nessie answered:
Evidence from Wannsee that the plan was to be sent to camps to work and die

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East.
Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes."

Yes I know Buchenwald was not in the east and they made armaments there, not road building. But the overall plan was forced deportation and work till you die, which is what happened to those at Buchenwald.
This is his evidence? Ok, he is again proven liar, there is not a single word about sending peoples to Buchenwald to force them to work till die. Nessie didn´t know where is Buchenwald and he probably thought that Buchenwald is in the East, now he googled some map and he has corrected himself that Buchenwald is not in the east, thus he refuted his own evidence. Of course, is too late with this correction, his previous quotes are here. In the case that Buchenwald was magically transported to the east, this will not change anything, there is still nothing about what he claimed, namely "plan was to send them to Buchenwald to work till die", the only thing I see in his "evidence" is that able bodied Jews will be separated and used as labor force in the east, in this case, large portion will be eliminated by natural causes, we do not know what is meant by large portion and what is meant by natural causes, but probably diseases.

Thus any interpretation similar to Nessie´s that "peoples were send there to be work till die or to die" is simply arbitrary and not present in the document. This individual simply creates arbitrary explanation of these sentences to fit his already made belief.

I consider subject of origns/capacity of crematoria as closed unless he is able to produce counter arguments.
That reads that the delousing chambers and bathing installations were planned for a place in the basement already adapted (according to the orthodox side) as an undressing room and gas chamber. But according to you that place in the basement is the morgue of the Krema and not a gas chamber. So whereabouts in the Krema was the bathing installation supposed to be? You are not making any sense here.
As usual, Nessie ignored to read provided source, this man is simply not interested in debate. From Nessie´s comment, one can clearly see that he does not know that there are two large rooms (and other smaller), since he still speaks in singular! For him, the basement is simply an undressing room/gas chamber or morgue. He simply does not know that one room was allegedly used as a gas chamber, second as an undressing room for alleged victims. Thus he still invents claims that i allegedly claimed that bathing installation were planned to be installed in alleged gas chamber (As proven, I said "basements of crematoria") otherwise he would not have omitted possibility of installation of this bathing installation in second room - undressing room! He omitted it because he does not know that alleged gas chamber and undressing room for victims are claimed to be installed in two separate rooms in basement!

I never claimed that morgues can be used only as a morgues, in fact I claimed the opposite and I informed him several months ago that:

Documents of Central office and from Topf und Sohne show that administrative planned some time to use morgue as an emergency delousing chambers because of spread of typhus epidemics, but that´s all. Despite this, this is only Krema II-III, not delousing block.


And exactly like in the case of bathing installations, these could be installed in morgue of crematoria, namely morgue 2 since document dated May 13 1943 explicitly states that this will be installed in undressing room and as known, leichenkeller 2 served as room for detainees who died in the camp and were transported here to be stripped off their clothes and placed naked in the morgue. No doubt this individual will start with more nonsenses how this prove that room was for victims of a homicidal gas chamber. This plan was later abandoned in the ligth of new showers installed in BW5a and BW5b or in the light of construction of central sauna. 14 real shower heads are then visible in the inventory list of crematorium III and are listed for morgue 1 and thus represent only partly implemented plan. If they were used or not used in this room, nobody knows, we can only speculate, but shower heads are real and are part of large project for bathing installations in crematoria.

But this does not change the fact that exactly like in the case of emergency delousing chambers, this project was also only emergency measure to improve terrible hygiene situation favored for typhus, so morgues are still morgues, and I call them morgues, and revisionists call them morgues.

Some very easy analogy for this individual - When somebody sleeps on the couch prepared in the garage as a emergency solution because his other rooms couldn´t be used because of some disaster, does this mean that garage will stop being a garage and will be from this day called bedroom?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now again something related to subject of this thread, this interests me since we can expose again that homicidal gassings in Auschwitz did not exist.
They were introduced afterwards
Nessie contradicts Pelt who testified under oath and he contradicts also Mazal et. al. and their report. Good.

1)Tell me how they introduced these introduction holes for Zyklon B to already constructed roof made of iron reinforced concrete some 18 cm thick and in the way to be able to make them gas-tight.

2)Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what?

3)Tell me their dimensions.
They were introduced afterwards, evidenced by the coverings seen in the train photo and the marks seen in the aerial photos.
This is all? Both of this refuted so your evidence is fictional. Feel free to show it again, i will repeat my refutation.
Then the Nazis blew the Krema roof up
His evidence for this claim is missing as usual. Is unlikely that Germans blew up already dismantled buildings up in order to cover crime as is widely repeated since they left intact documentation of central construction office in Auschwitz together with blueprints and orders for alleged killing installations without bothering to destroy them by simply light a match.

They left camp with up to 7,000 (it depends on source) witnesses.

They left alleged gas chamber in crematorium I intact (at this time converted to shelter by a few added walls in former alleged gas chamber)
and the Soviets tampered with it. So there is not clear, definitive sign of the holes anymore, nor their measurements.
4)Can Nessie explain to me why Soviets tampered roof in the way to remove original dimensions or to disrupt introduction holes if there were any, if he claims that Soviets affected how the holes looks now?
The state of the Krema roof now is too poor and tampered with the make any definitive conclusions from it.
This is simply excuse to avoid problem and this is also untrue proving he never saw this roof which is in fact mainly intact and only broken/cracked to a few large blocks or cracked on places where this roof fell on the supporting pillars which pierced the roof.

This is also clear double standard, Nessie and Pelt or Mazal et. al. know from the tampered roof that there were introduction holes thus they are clearly making conclusions, but when revisionists are making conclusions from the same roof, then this excuse from "believers" follows - roof is too tampered to make conclusions - in the other words - not too tampered for believers to make conclusions, but too tampered for revisionists to make their conclusions.
So how the mesh devices fitted through the roof is not clear either.
5)Great, this means that you can tell me how these devices were fitted on the floor, can you show me traces of fitting on the floor?

6)These fictional devices are reported to have square section with side 70 cm and height 3m, can you show me holes measuring at least - let´s say - 71cm x 71 cm to be able to accommodated these devices?
The blue colour is explained by the length of time clothing was deloused compared to the time people spent in the chambers being gassed. Each time a batch of clothes was deloused it stayed in a the chamber longer and subsequently there was more time for the gas to react with the walls to produce the colour. There were also fewer occasions when the chamber was vented.
7)Tell me Nessie, how much time gas spent in contact with the walls in AHGCH, and how much time in the case of delousing chamber?

8)What is your explanation of the fact that according to analysis of Leuchter´s/Rudolf´s samples (experiment samples included) conducted by Alpha Analytic Laboratories/Fresenius Institute/Institute for Environmental Analytics - alleged homicidal gas chambers are practically without reproducible cyanide traces which are in order of magnitude of those found in washroom, bavarian house or inmate barracks (in all cases only up to 9,6 mg/kg) but delousing chambers showed concentrations up to 13,5g/kg?
That is poor research as they use corrupted evidence, find the conclusion they want to out of it and then stop, denying all other evidence as a lie.
Nessie is hardly in position to says something about how to handle with evidence or what is poor research, i consider this statement as just absurd when i see who his author. Second part is again untrue, revisionists always back up and provide explanation for their claims they do not shout - lie - without evidence like Nessie.

I patiently addressed every question/claim from Nessie about crematoria and cremation capacity, now I am curious how he will address my simple but fundamental questions about the most important subject, the gas chamber.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:31 pm

I am back to posting on my phone, so I will deal with your various points.

You know fine well that Wannsee does not mention Buchenwal or Auschwitz by name. Instead the plan is to make Jews work till they die. That is what happened at Buchenwald and Auschwitz and elsewher. But you have to ignore and dodge that link as you cannot even accept ethnic cleansing and genocide took place.

You only claim liar as you cannot come up with an arguement that makes sense of what the Nazis were doing to the Jews by forceably deporting ghem to camps making them work as slaves and build facilities to deal with massed deaths by natural causes.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:43 pm

Instead the plan is to make Jews work till they die.
And I repeatedly demonstrated that this is not true and you invented it, and this is not stated in your document, at least to my knowledge no such document exist! What is more absurd, one can reads:

The aim of all this [emigration] was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner.

So cleanse German living space from Jews and move them to east in a LEGAL manner exactly in accordance with their policy what is in accordance with revisionists´s position and not to put them into concentration camp in Germany and work them do die as you falsely claims. You own document contradicts your outrageous invention.

Your are full of it Nessie.
You only claim liar as you cannot come up with an arguement that makes sense of what the Nazis were doing to the Jews by forceably deporting ghem to camps making them work as slaves and build facilities to deal with massed deaths by natural causes.
More lies, this thread is proof that I can come with argument and i refuted your invention as outrageous lie, document do not contain anything what you have claimed. You even contradicted it yourself.

Case closed.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:15 pm

Since I recollected that Pressac provided data for mortality in June 1943 in his book [1], I am going to address Nessie´s claim again with lethal blow this time.
You say "so if Nessie denies that there was epidemic 3 months and 28 days earlier, he for sure is able to explain how mortality in March (this month follows after February and is 3rd and year has 12 months) onwards magically dropped or disappeared and why. He can for sure explain all the fuzz/documents about typhus, closure of the camp, Topf list for 2 for disinfestation ovens for crematorium II dated April 13, 1943, started operation for improving hygiene in May 1943 and other stuff mentioned in my previous comment. "

Firstly I do not deny a typhus epidemic, stop lying. Mortality drops as actions such as the use of Zyklon B is used to fight off the disease. I see Buchenwald achieved a huge drop off in the disease with its epidemic in 1945. Epidemics do come to an end, no magic involved.
Firstly, Nessie is off as usual, i said "IF Nessie denies", thus his accusation is again completely unfounded.

Data for mortality in period from March 1 to July 1: approx. 14,700[2] - average daily mortality is 124! Mortality during May/June dropped thanks to measurements taken before, but still approx. 80 per day! According to Pressac, exactly in this period May and June - there was a still typhus epidemic.[3]

Thus Nessie, your claim about non-existent typhus epidemic which magically disappeared after February is again refuted and so is again your nonsense about how only some two thousands victims died during approx. 50% period of entire camp existence as you and Zimmerman suggested.
Mortality drops as actions such as the use of Zyklon B is used to fight off the disease.
"Mortality drop" and to get rid of the epidemic are two different things.

Needless to say that Nessie dodged simple question what caused this mortality if not still ongoing typhus epidemic. Is obvious why.

Notes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]Jean - Claude Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. Die Technik des Massenmordes, R. Piper GmbH & Co. KG, Munchen 1994, second edition 1995.
[2]Ibid., 194.; French edition - Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse. CNRS Éditions, Paris, 2007, p. 145.
[3]Idem.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:38 pm

Air Photo Evidence

Holocaust May 23, 2012

I remember the day when I held John C. Ball’s seminal 120pp. oversize book Air Photo Evidence (1992) in my hands. It blew my mind. Who could possibly resist the convincing power of air photos mainly taken by Allied war planes over sites claimed to have been the locations of Nazi mass murders? After the Leuchter Report, I think it was this very work which struck the most fatal blow to the orthodox Holocaust narrative. For the first time this work made accessible for the general public numerous photos taken by Allied and German reconnaissance airplanes during the war.

And the best of it all was that Ball thoroughly and expertly analyzed these photos, explained them to the lay reader, and brought them into a comprehensible context. Due to its massive size, it has never been posted online. Finally, here it is:
John C. Ball, Air Photo Evidence, Ball Resources Services, Ltd., Delta, B.C., 1992

Image
Part 1: from cover through page 56, high resolution (98.3 MB; enter password: “download”).
Part 1: from cover through page 56, medium resolution, OCR-processed (52.5 MB; enter password: “download”).
Part 2: from page 57 to end, high resolution (94.7 MB; enter password: “download”).
Part 2: from page 57 to end, medium resolution, OCR-processed (51.3 MB; enter password: “download”).

Post Scriptum
In early 2004, the British National Collection of Aerial Photographs published a press release claiming that it has in its archive an air photo of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp of Aug 23, 1944, showing evidence of the mass murder allegedly going on there at that time (echoed, for instance, by the German news magazine Der Spiegel, Jan. 19, 2004). The photo can be seen here:

Auschwitz Concentration Camp (Auschwitz-Birkenau)
Image
Auschwitz Concentration Camp (Auschwitz-Birkenau)
"This unique photograph shows clouds of thick smoke rising from the Auschwitz camp. At this stage in the history of Auschwitz, in the final months of the Second World War, the number of people being killed was so high that the crematoria were unable to burn all the corpses.
This image graphically illustrates the burning of these mass funeral pits. When viewed at high-resolution, prisoners can be seen on roll-call. The camp commandant, Rudolf Höß, testified at the Nuremberg Trials that up to 3 million people had died at Auschwitz."

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/database/re" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... tara_scran

In my book Lecture on the Holocaust I have analyzed this and other air photos (pp. 156-164, here p. 159) and have juxtaposed them to what we should see if the eyewitness claims, and based upon this the orthodox Auschwitz narrative, were true. Result: the photos actually prove the opposite of what orthodox scholars claim. Read it, and judge yourself! (My book can be download as a free PDF file here :
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/15-loth.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://germarrudolf.com/2012/05/air-photo-evidence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jerzy
http://www.polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic ... 36&t=19285" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Nessie
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:43 am

Bear in mind Bob's reaction to a photo of men dressed as the KKK doing Nazi salutes carrying banners proclaiming Holohoax was to say he was uncertain of what those men stood for. Now here is another of Bob's uncertainties, this time about Wannsee and how it fits with the camps and deaths. From post #258

".....the only thing I see in his "evidence" is that able bodied Jews will be separated and used as labor force in the east, in this case, large portion will be eliminated by natural causes, we do not know what is meant by large portion and what is meant by natural causes, but probably diseases."

Bob does not know what the blatantly obvious large portion and natural causes means, just like he does not know what the KKK doing Nazi salutes carrying Holohoax placards stands for.

Bear in mind Bob's reaction when he made up a quote by me that I had allegedly said that the destruction of evidence proves a crime, which is nonsense and a made up lie by Bob. Now he has done it again with "Ok, he is again proven liar, there is not a single word about sending peoples to Buchenwald to force them to work till die..." At no point have I said that the Wannsee Protocol mentions Buchenwald. What that document does say is that

"Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance."

"Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:"

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history."

So after a gross dodge of claiming he does not what is meant by and another made up lie about the naming of Buchenwald, he goes on to say in post #260

"So cleanse German living space from Jews and move them to east in a LEGAL manner exactly in accordance with their policy what is in accordance with revisionists´s position and not to put them into concentration camp in Germany and work them do die as you falsely claims. You own document contradicts your outrageous invention."

So now the Nazi action of ethnic cleansing is OK because they made it legal. It is as planned, as shown with Wannsee which Bob states contradicts what I have said. But what I have said is that the plan was to forceably move Jews (the evacuation of the Jews) to work until they die (in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.) For the rest, as part of The Final Solution, (have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival). So forced removal, camps, work, death. Buchenwald is part of that as Jews ended up there worked and died. The Protocols agreements matches what took place.

The evidence is so blatant it is no wonder your squirm and dodge and lie by making up lies. Your inability to face up to evidence and deal with it in a responsible way means you are well and truly busted as a source of reasoned argument.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:29 am

Bob wrote:
.....
That reads that the delousing chambers and bathing installations were planned for a place in the basement already adapted (according to the orthodox side) as an undressing room and gas chamber. But according to you that place in the basement is the morgue of the Krema and not a gas chamber. So whereabouts in the Krema was the bathing installation supposed to be? You are not making any sense here.
As usual, Nessie ignored to read provided source, this man is simply not interested in debate. From Nessie´s comment, one can clearly see that he does not know that there are two large rooms (and other smaller), since he still speaks in singular! For him, the basement is simply an undressing room/gas chamber or morgue. He simply does not know that one room was allegedly used as a gas chamber, second as an undressing room for alleged victims. Thus he still invents claims that i allegedly claimed that bathing installation were planned to be installed in alleged gas chamber (As proven, I said "basements of crematoria") otherwise he would not have omitted possibility of installation of this bathing installation in second room - undressing room! He omitted it because he does not know that alleged gas chamber and undressing room for victims are claimed to be installed in two separate rooms in basement!

I never claimed that morgues can be used only as a morgues, in fact I claimed the opposite and I informed him several months ago that:

Documents of Central office and from Topf und Sohne show that administrative planned some time to use morgue as an emergency delousing chambers because of spread of typhus epidemics, but that´s all. Despite this, this is only Krema II-III, not delousing block.


And exactly like in the case of bathing installations, these could be installed in morgue of crematoria, namely morgue 2 since document dated May 13 1943 explicitly states that this will be installed in undressing room and as known, leichenkeller 2 served as room for detainees who died in the camp and were transported here to be stripped off their clothes and placed naked in the morgue. No doubt this individual will start with more nonsenses how this prove that room was for victims of a homicidal gas chamber. This plan was later abandoned in the ligth of new showers installed in BW5a and BW5b or in the light of construction of central sauna. 14 real shower heads are then visible in the inventory list of crematorium III and are listed for morgue 1 and thus represent only partly implemented plan. If they were used or not used in this room, nobody knows, we can only speculate, but shower heads are real and are part of large project for bathing installations in crematoria.

...........
Bob, you start yet again by making up a lie, just as you did about making up a lie about me saying destruction of evidence is proof of a crime. I said "an undressing room and gas chamber", the and denoting the separation of the two. You go to claim "For him, the basement is simply an undressing room/gas chamber". So as I have had to do before I will say quite clearly there was an undressing room and there was a gas chamber, two separate rooms. You have a very bad history of making up lies, it has pretty destroyed your credibility as a reasoned debater.

You were the one who said in post #250 "they planned[..]bathing installations (project started in May) for whole camp in the basements of crematoria[...]Apparently not very smart and incompatible to want to install bathing installations for whole camp if we follow orthodox literature and place was already adapted and used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room" So it is apparently clear when you say "used as homicidal gas chamber and undressing room" but not when I use exactly the same words!? You go on to say "Nessie simply transformed this passage in his head to "bathing in gas chamber"" which is another made up quote. If your arguments rely on making up quotes then your arguments are poor to start with. This is all dodging away from my question, whereabouts in the basement was the bathing installation supposed to be?

I remember our past conversation about what the morgues could be used for. I know you "never claimed that morgues can be used only as a morgues". Then we finally get to an answer, which is that you don't appear to know if it is the morgue or the undressing room.

"...in the case of bathing installations, these could be installed in morgue of crematoria, namely morgue 2 since document dated May 13 1943 explicitly states that this will be installed in undressing room and as known, leichenkeller 2 served as room for detainees who died in the camp and were transported here to be stripped off their clothes and placed naked in the morgue."

Indeed of the 6 morgues I have been two, the whole is described as the morgue and depending on the size and function of the place it can one room for everything (undressing, remains preparation and viewings, cold cabinets, autopsy) or a number of rooms for each part.

When you speak of shower heads being ordered and not used, do you agree that Krema II was never used for delousing? I accept it could be used in emergencies and note the adaptability of the building from delousing to morgue to..... gas chamber. But as a morgue Krema IIs role in dealing with typhus is purely cremating the bodies and this "only emergency measure to improve terrible hygiene situation favored for typhus," applies to actions taken elsewhere in the camp, delousing buildings, removal and delousing of clothes and medical treatment of prisoners.

You attempts to conflate the Krema with the battle against typhus does not match what you want to achieve. As I said before planning for epidemics involves vaccines (no sign of them being used at the camps), controls to stop spreading (all ready in place as they were prisoners in the camps), controls for cleaning (agreed that took place with Zyklon B) and medical provisions (limited at the camps). But building huge numbers of crematoriums as permanent structures to deal with the dead. Have you any example of another epidemic anywhere where that happened?

You also keep on trying to conflate hygiene with dead bodies and typhus, as if typhus alone accounts for such an action. That ignores all the other causes of death at the camps and any dead body needs to be disposed of no matter what they die of.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 am

Bob wrote:Since I recollected that Pressac provided data for mortality in June 1943 in his book [1], I am going to address Nessie´s claim again with lethal blow this time.
You say "so if Nessie denies that there was epidemic 3 months and 28 days earlier, he for sure is able to explain how mortality in March (this month follows after February and is 3rd and year has 12 months) onwards magically dropped or disappeared and why. He can for sure explain all the fuzz/documents about typhus, closure of the camp, Topf list for 2 for disinfestation ovens for crematorium II dated April 13, 1943, started operation for improving hygiene in May 1943 and other stuff mentioned in my previous comment. "

Firstly I do not deny a typhus epidemic, stop lying. Mortality drops as actions such as the use of Zyklon B is used to fight off the disease. I see Buchenwald achieved a huge drop off in the disease with its epidemic in 1945. Epidemics do come to an end, no magic involved.
Firstly, Nessie is off as usual, i said "IF Nessie denies", thus his accusation is again completely unfounded.

Data for mortality in period from March 1 to July 1: approx. 14,700[2] - average daily mortality is 124! Mortality during May/June dropped thanks to measurements taken before, but still approx. 80 per day! According to Pressac, exactly in this period May and June - there was a still typhus epidemic.[3]

Thus Nessie, your claim about non-existent typhus epidemic which magically disappeared after February is again refuted and so is again your nonsense about how only some two thousands victims died during approx. 50% period of entire camp existence as you and Zimmerman suggested.
Mortality drops as actions such as the use of Zyklon B is used to fight off the disease.
"Mortality drop" and to get rid of the epidemic are two different things.

Needless to say that Nessie dodged simple question what caused this mortality if not still ongoing typhus epidemic. Is obvious why.

Notes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]Jean - Claude Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz. Die Technik des Massenmordes, R. Piper GmbH & Co. KG, Munchen 1994, second edition 1995.
[2]Ibid., 194.; French edition - Les crématoires d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse. CNRS Éditions, Paris, 2007, p. 145.
[3]Idem.
So we have a typhus epidemic killing 80 people a day during a month when one Nazi writes to another saying the retorts can deal with 4,756 persons in a 24 hour period.

So 4,756 minus 80 is 4676 (this is an approximate as we do not know the specific typhus death rate on June 28th 1943.

You said "Needless to say that Nessie dodged simple question what caused this mortality if not still ongoing typhus epidemic. Is obvious why." No it is not, answer the question what did the others die from?

You hypothesis that typhus explains the sheer number if retorts at Birkenau further falls down when you look at the problems and break downs experienced there. If only 80 or so bodies were being cremated a day the retorts would be like the ones at Birkenau and able to cope with the number of deaths. With 46 retorts we are talking under two bodies per retort, though more likely is to have one or two functioning and the rest lying unused. So if the are at such a low capacity or are unused, why do they break down so much?
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:06 pm

Bob wrote:.........
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now again something related to subject of this thread, this interests me since we can expose again that homicidal gassings in Auschwitz did not exist.
They were introduced afterwards
Nessie contradicts Pelt who testified under oath and he contradicts also Mazal et. al. and their report. Good.

1)Tell me how they introduced these introduction holes for Zyklon B to already constructed roof made of iron reinforced concrete some 18 cm thick and in the way to be able to make them gas-tight.

2)Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what?

3)Tell me their dimensions.
They were introduced afterwards, evidenced by the coverings seen in the train photo and the marks seen in the aerial photos.
This is all? Both of this refuted so your evidence is fictional. Feel free to show it again, i will repeat my refutation.
Then the Nazis blew the Krema roof up
His evidence for this claim is missing as usual. Is unlikely that Germans blew up already dismantled buildings up in order to cover crime as is widely repeated since they left intact documentation of central construction office in Auschwitz together with blueprints and orders for alleged killing installations without bothering to destroy them by simply light a match.

They left camp with up to 7,000 (it depends on source) witnesses.

They left alleged gas chamber in crematorium I intact (at this time converted to shelter by a few added walls in former alleged gas chamber)
and the Soviets tampered with it. So there is not clear, definitive sign of the holes anymore, nor their measurements.
4)Can Nessie explain to me why Soviets tampered roof in the way to remove original dimensions or to disrupt introduction holes if there were any, if he claims that Soviets affected how the holes looks now?
The state of the Krema roof now is too poor and tampered with the make any definitive conclusions from it.
This is simply excuse to avoid problem and this is also untrue proving he never saw this roof which is in fact mainly intact and only broken/cracked to a few large blocks or cracked on places where this roof fell on the supporting pillars which pierced the roof.

This is also clear double standard, Nessie and Pelt or Mazal et. al. know from the tampered roof that there were introduction holes thus they are clearly making conclusions, but when revisionists are making conclusions from the same roof, then this excuse from "believers" follows - roof is too tampered to make conclusions - in the other words - not too tampered for believers to make conclusions, but too tampered for revisionists to make their conclusions.
So how the mesh devices fitted through the roof is not clear either.
5)Great, this means that you can tell me how these devices were fitted on the floor, can you show me traces of fitting on the floor?

6)These fictional devices are reported to have square section with side 70 cm and height 3m, can you show me holes measuring at least - let´s say - 71cm x 71 cm to be able to accommodated these devices?
The blue colour is explained by the length of time clothing was deloused compared to the time people spent in the chambers being gassed. Each time a batch of clothes was deloused it stayed in a the chamber longer and subsequently there was more time for the gas to react with the walls to produce the colour. There were also fewer occasions when the chamber was vented.
7)Tell me Nessie, how much time gas spent in contact with the walls in AHGCH, and how much time in the case of delousing chamber?

8)What is your explanation of the fact that according to analysis of Leuchter´s/Rudolf´s samples (experiment samples included) conducted by Alpha Analytic Laboratories/Fresenius Institute/Institute for Environmental Analytics - alleged homicidal gas chambers are practically without reproducible cyanide traces which are in order of magnitude of those found in washroom, bavarian house or inmate barracks (in all cases only up to 9,6 mg/kg) but delousing chambers showed concentrations up to 13,5g/kg?
That is poor research as they use corrupted evidence, find the conclusion they want to out of it and then stop, denying all other evidence as a lie.
Nessie is hardly in position to says something about how to handle with evidence or what is poor research, i consider this statement as just absurd when i see who his author. Second part is again untrue, revisionists always back up and provide explanation for their claims they do not shout - lie - without evidence like Nessie.

I patiently addressed every question/claim from Nessie about crematoria and cremation capacity, now I am curious how he will address my simple but fundamental questions about the most important subject, the gas chamber.
1 - I do not know for sure, I would assume drilling and cutting. Hence the train photos where they covered over the holes after they had been made. As for gas tight, we have been through this before. A tent can be gas tight enough that someone inside can die of CO poisoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/0 ... th-camping" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But your idea of gas tight means this

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/gascham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So it would be easy with a wooden box sealed with pitch or tar to make a gas tight cover.

2 - I do not know why wooden plates were put on the ceiling, do you?

3 - unsure of the answer as the Krema roof has been very badly damaged, but they will be about 70cm to fit the columns through.

Please do repeat your supposed refutation of the train and aerial photos. I was not convinced by them the first time and unless you have something new to add, I cannot see me changing my mind.

As for who blew up Krema II. Here, extraordinarily the liar Elie Wiesel is used as a denier source to 'prove' the Soviets did it!

http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2012/ ... ook-night/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"This quote is from Ms. Yeager’s blog:

The official Holocaust narrative has it that the Red Army did not arrive at the Auschwitz labor camps until January 27th, 1945—where they found some of the barracks burning, and also blown-up crematorium buildings which had housed “gas chambers.” This is the date that is commemorated all over the world as the Liberation of Auschwitz.

However, on page 87 of the novel Night it is stated that the Russians “liberated” the inmates who were left behind at Monowitz (Auschwitz III) on January 20th, two days after the bulk of the prisoners left on the one-day forced march to Gleiwitz, from where they were put on a train to Buchenwald."

I note you deflect by commenting the converted to an air raid shelter Krema I was left in tact.

4 - You ask me why would the Soviets tamper with the Krema II roof, yet you have been suggesting they blew it up. The Soviets, just like the Nazis used widespread propaganda and lies. I have doubts about anything left with the Soviets, unless clearly left untouched, which Krema II is not. Here is why I say claims of what happened based on the roof alone are unreliable (from the Zundel Trial)

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/answers.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"It is a sad reflection on Leuchter's integrity and ability to use
logic to see that he admits the Kremas were demolished, yet continues
to claim he can deduce from their current state how they looked in
1944, before they were blown up! The following is a verbatim excerpt
from his cross-examination by Mr. Pearson, in the Zundel trial:


Q. Crematoria III has been demolished.

A. Um, there are still parts of Crematoruim III there, but for
the most part, the roof of the alleged gas chamber has crumbled
and is all lying in bits and pieces in the basement of what would
have been the alleged gas chamber.

Q. So, it's no longer subterranean?

A. That's correct. There's a hole in the ground.

Q. With respect to the gas chambers at Crematorium IV and V,
those are totally demolished.

A. With the exception of the foundation, yes.

Q. So, all that was there for you to examine was the foundation
of the building. Is that right?

A. That is correct.

Leuchter admits that the roof of the gas chamber of Krema III was all
blown up and collapsed, and that Krema IV and V are gone except for
the foundation! As for Krema II, his testimony is also intriguing:

Q. So, the gas chamber facility itself is presently underground?

A. Parts of it are and parts aren't.

Q. All right. And the parts that are underground, I take it that
the roof is no longer whole; is that right?

A. Um, one of the roofs is broken into several pieces but it's
essentially whole.

Q. It's broken in several pieces but it's essentially whole?

A. I mean it's not fragmented.

(sure about that http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Auschwitz ... nsII08.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Q. How many pieces?

A. Three, I believe. I say that only to indicate that it's not
fragmented. There are large slabs left of the roof.

(really? http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... =504&h=335" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Q. Right. And it's collapsed.

A. It's dropped several feet. It's partially collapsed.

Q. Is there dirt over it? Is it subterranean?

A. In some places there are dirt over it and some places there's
no dirt.

Q. All right. And that's with respect to Crematorium II?

A. That's correct.

Even more incredible is to see what Leuchter writes in his report:

"In Birkenau, Kremas II,III,IV and V are collapsed, or razed to the
ground. Bunker I (the red house) is gone.""

I stand by my position that other evidence has to be used and the Kremas alone cannot be used as the one and only source. Here you go on yet again to make up stuff "This is also clear double standard, Nessie and Pelt or Mazal et. al. know from the tampered roof that there were introduction holes thus they are clearly making conclusions, but when revisionists are making conclusions from the same roof, then this excuse from "believers" follows - roof is too tampered to make conclusions - in the other words - not too tampered for believers to make conclusions, but too tampered for revisionists to make their conclusions." as I say that applies to both sides. In fact only the believers go on to look at the other evidence, the deniers just ignore it or cry it is all faked.

5 - I don't know if or how they fitted onto the floor. If the whole structure was to be raised up and down, they may have not needed fitting at all.

6 - not precisely no. But the state of the roof prevents anyone from doing that. All that can be done is a an approximation. It may be possible in the future if a proper forensic study was done.

7 - no idea, I found out from you during the debate on prove clothes only went into the gas chambers that clothing needs and got longer to delouse than people need to die.

8 - is that Leuchter the BA from Boston but self proclaimed engineer and expert? The one who lied about the samples that were subsequently used in the Zundel trial?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Le ... _Auschwitz" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about a report from a Professor of Forensic Toxicology?

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/l/ ... ow.institu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally the biggest lie of all "revisionists always back up and provide explanation for their claims they do not shout - lie - without evidence like Nessie." You claims of me lying are based on you lying about what I have really said. Hoisted by your own petard.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:14 pm

Bear in mind Bob's reaction to a photo of men dressed as the KKK doing Nazi salutes carrying banners proclaiming Holohoax was to say he was uncertain of what those men stood for. Now here is another of Bob's uncertainties, this time about Wannsee and how it fits with the camps and deaths. From post #258

".....the only thing I see in his "evidence" is that able bodied Jews will be separated and used as labor force in the east, in this case, large portion will be eliminated by natural causes, we do not know what is meant by large portion and what is meant by natural causes, but probably diseases."

Bob does not know what the blatantly obvious large portion and natural causes means, just like he does not know what the KKK doing Nazi salutes carrying Holohoax placards stands for.
Bear in mind Bob's reaction when he made up a quote by me that I had allegedly said that the destruction of evidence proves a crime, which is nonsense and a made up lie by Bob.
Refuted as lies and false accusations.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At no point have I said that the Wannsee Protocol mentions Buchenwald.

So after a gross dodge of claiming he does not what is meant by and another made up lie about the naming of Buchenwald
This is another lie:
Nessie - The evidence that people were sent to Buchenwald to work and die there is from the Wannsee Protocol, that a crematorium was built there and the death rates.

Bob - Please, quote this alleged evidence from Wannsee minutes . Thank you in advance.

Nessie - Evidence from Wannsee that the plan was to be sent to camps to work and die

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East.
Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes."

Yes I know Buchenwald was not in the east and they made armaments there, not road building. But the overall plan was forced deportation and work till you die, which is what happened to those at Buchenwald.
There is not a single word about Buchenwald, not even evidence for Buchenwald nor for any other camp or plan to kill peoples by forcing them to work until die as this individual claims.
"Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Führer gives the appropriate approval in advance."

"Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows among the individual countries:"

"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
Already addressed.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history."
This remnant of able bodied Jews previously selected for work from Jews emigrated/evacuated to the east will if released serve as a the seed of a new Jewish arrival, so they have to be treated accordingly, i.e. - not released.

Nessie is beating a dead horse, these fantasies tirelessly repeated by "believers" on forums are easily refuted by simply reading the document itself. His inventions are thus refuted again.
"So cleanse German living space from Jews and move them to east in a LEGAL manner exactly in accordance with their policy what is in accordance with revisionists´s position and not to put them into concentration camp in Germany and work them do die as you falsely claims. You own document contradicts your outrageous invention."

So now the Nazi action of ethnic cleansing is OK because they made it legal.
This is again lie, I never claimed that this is ok, I said "LEGAL exactly in accordance with their policy". Deportation of Jews to the East or camps was legal, Nessie must deal with it, this was "oh so" legal as the deportation of Japanese to camps after Pearl Harbor. But what was not legal, was to kill them in the course of some alleged plan as this individual claims.

His own alleged evidence - Wannsee document - handily refutes his inventions.
Buchenwald is part of that
This man still believes that Buchenwald is located in the east, this is just ridiculous.
The evidence is so blatant it is no wonder your squirm and dodge and lie by making up lies. Your inability to face up to evidence and deal with it in a responsible way means you are well and truly busted as a source of reasoned argument.
The evidence is so blatant that i again addressed every of your inventions and quotes and exposed them as false and completely unfounded, so yes, evidence of your falsehoods is really blatant. The only action which you can do is to ignore it and spread lies about how i am dodging or squirming.
So we have a typhus epidemic killing 80 people a day during a month when one Nazi writes to another saying the retorts can deal with 4,756 persons in a 24 hour period.

So 4,756 minus 80 is 4676 (this is an approximate as we do not know the specific typhus death rate on June 28th 1943.

You said "Needless to say that Nessie dodged simple question what caused this mortality if not still ongoing typhus epidemic. Is obvious why." No it is not, answer the question what did the others die from?

You hypothesis that typhus explains the sheer number if retorts at Birkenau further falls down when you look at the problems and break downs experienced there. If only 80 or so bodies were being cremated a day the retorts would be like the ones at Birkenau and able to cope with the number of deaths. With 46 retorts we are talking under two bodies per retort, though more likely is to have one or two functioning and the rest lying unused. So if the are at such a low capacity or are unused, why do they break down so much?

Lets go with your figure of planning for 200,000. I will use 46 retorts as that is what was planned and was there in Birkenau started in 1942. So by 1943 we have Bischoff reporting 4756 people cremated a day, that means the entire camp population cremated in 42 days.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nessie admitted that he was wrong when he falsely claimed "There was no epidemic then."

Nessie ignores falsehoods of this theoretical capacity stated in the document, he simply accepted it as correct ignoring the counter evidence.

Nessie ignores that muffles were planned and constructed during the July/August 1942 for the possible risk of similar epidemic (which raged in the camp in the summer/August of 1942) in the camp with planned population of 200,000, and not for conditions in month June 1943.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p304813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nessie ignores that installed muffles/crematoria never worked simultaneously as already proven to him even by his own source.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nessie again confirmed his terrible math and terrible ability to grasp a content of comments or documents, I played with him this "game" about wrong data in the document dated June 28 1943 and I waited very long to give him a chance to be able to correct himself, but now is clear that this is not going to happen even when I provided him with hints, for example when I said:

Nessie also deliberately omitted in his calculation, that number of new planned muffles was 31 and not 46, 46 is total capacity of new planned crematoria (31) + crematorium 2 (15), but this crematorium 2 was already planned and designed from the fall of 1941 as a replacement for old crematorium 1 in the main camp.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"i will use ONLY (WRONG) data from Nessie"
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"five crematoria"
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His own document speaks in fact about 52 muffles of five crematoria and capacity of 4,756, but this individual still speaks only about 46 muffles of four crematoria but his capacity is still 4,756! Correct capacity of 46 muffles based on data in document is 4,416 of course.

Nessie again dodged question what caused death of these peoples if not typhus since he informed us that according to him, only some two thousands peoples died during some half period of entire existence of the camp. Instead of answer he answered question by question, but my answer is clear, they died because of typhus.
So if the are at such a low capacity or are unused, why do they break down so much?
False, Nessie already assumed that his previous claims are correct thus he based his next claims like this on false premise. Nevermind I will address breakdowns, ovens were damaged simply because IV-V were poorly constructed in simpler manner than II-III, German did not bother to put back IV back in to service or to take proper care of repeated breakdowns of V obviously because they did not need this capacity and II-III were obviously adequate in this period and in different situation than in the summer of 1942. This is of course in complete disagreement with alleged extermination. II-III were subjected to breakdowns too, but not by "oh so excessive usage caused by extermination" since even the new things can be damaged by casual usage, so if the chimney was previously badly dried and cracked and etc. this has nothing to do with excessive usage, but yes, is possible that the strain on the cremation equipment was larger than with normal usage since there were still many corpses who died because of disease so they wanted to get rid of them quickly.
You hypothesis that typhus explains the sheer number if retorts at Birkenau further falls down when you look at the problems and break downs experienced there. If only 80 or so bodies were being cremated a day the retorts would be like the ones at Birkenau and able to cope with the number of deaths.
This unfounded claim obviously does not make even slightest sense, this individual obviously confused Birkenau probably with Buchenwald!

Needless to say that such a nonsenses are not even in orthodox literature which contradicts his lies and inventions. One does not need to be a revisionist to handily refute them as falsehoods as shown in this thread.
Last edited by Bob on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:22 pm

Image
Soviets and prisoners from the camp hospital after liberation.

Those prisoners-opposite to E.Wiesel and his father -decided to wait for soviets instead of escaping west with Germans.


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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:23 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:1)Tell me how they introduced these introduction holes for Zyklon B to already constructed roof made of iron reinforced concrete some 18 cm thick and in the way to be able to make them gas-tight.
1 - I do not know for sure, I would assume drilling and cutting. Hence the train photos where they covered over the holes after they had been made. As for gas tight, we have been through this before. A tent can be gas tight enough that someone inside can die of CO poisoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... th-camping

But your idea of gas tight means this

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/gascham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So it would be easy with a wooden box sealed with pitch or tar to make a gas tight cover.

1)He doesn´t know for sure, hm, this is revealing, but he is sure they did it! Drilling and cutting "somehow with something" through the reinforced concrete 18 cm thick and in "some" way in which they did not disturbed stability of the construction. This is of course nonsense. What some tent or wooden box has to do with this subject, i do not know, this individual apparently confused wooden chimneys in crematorium I with alleged chimneys in crematorium II-III.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:2)Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what?
2 - I do not know why wooden plates were put on the ceiling, do you?
2)I already informed Nessie that accoring to historiography, they were used for fastening of fake showers. That is not all, they also allegedly changed opening direction of doors from inside to outside (previously from outside to inside to room), planned and installed stairs to alleged undressing room for victims, they substituted double-leaf door for single leaf door, installed gas tight door with peephole, eliminated corpse chute...and etc. so again my very simple question no. 2: Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what?
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:3)Tell me their dimensions.
3 - unsure of the answer as the Krema roof has been very badly damaged, but they will be about 70cm to fit the columns through.
3)Tell me Nessie, how exactly can be roof damaged that allegedly genuine opening will be shrunk, since there is not a one single alleged introduction hole with the side of 70cm. Explain to me this "magic".
Nessie wrote:Please do repeat your supposed refutation of the train and aerial photos. I was not convinced by them the first time and unless you have something new to add, I cannot see me changing my mind.
But as i informed Nessie, he must obviously first "to show it again" and then I can address his alleged evidence, now his arguments are invisible.
As for who blew up Krema II. Here, extraordinarily the liar Elie Wiesel is used as a denier source to 'prove' the Soviets did it!
Not WHO Nessie, you clearly said "Then the Nazis blew the Krema roof up" - so you again diverted subject from your claim and instead of addressing my counter arguments, you have dodged it with irrelevant Wiesel who contradicts your own claim!

So again, where exactly is your evidence that the Nazis did it since I handily refuted your claim as nonsensical and unfounded?
I note you deflect by commenting the converted to an air raid shelter Krema I was left in tact.
How I deflect it, maybe this individual can explain it.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:4)Can Nessie explain to me why Soviets tampered roof in the way to remove original dimensions or to disrupt introduction holes if there were any, if he claims that Soviets affected how the holes looks now?
4 - You ask me why would the Soviets tamper with the Krema II roof, yet you have been suggesting they blew it up. The Soviets, just like the Nazis used widespread propaganda and lies. I have doubts about anything left with the Soviets, unless clearly left untouched, which Krema II is not. Here is why I say claims of what happened based on the roof alone are unreliable (from the Zundel Trial)
4)This is utter lie, I in my quote did not say a word about who blew up the roof as this point is clearly irrelevant to this debate, I only refuted Nessie´s falsehood about how Nazis allegedly did it. As for Nazi propaganda, here is dodged comment in different thread. So now the dodged question again: Can Nessie explain to me why Soviets tampered roof in the way to remove original dimensions or to disrupt introduction holes if there were any, if he claims that Soviets affected how the holes looks now?

Nessie dodged whole question and attempted to divert subject to debate about the roof´s condition, his off topic claims are again full of falsehoods, as i have explained "in fact mainly intact and only broken/cracked to a few large blocks or cracked on places where this roof fell on the supporting pillars which pierced the roof."
Even more incredible is to see what Leuchter writes in his report:

"In Birkenau, Kremas II,III,IV and V are collapsed, or razed to the
ground. Bunker I (the red house) is gone.""
What exactly is incredible about this according to Nessie?
I stand by my position that other evidence has to be used and the Kremas alone cannot be used as the one and only source. Here you go on yet again to make up stuff "This is also clear double standard, Nessie and Pelt or Mazal et. al. know from the tampered roof that there were introduction holes thus they are clearly making conclusions, but when revisionists are making conclusions from the same roof, then this excuse from "believers" follows - roof is too tampered to make conclusions - in the other words - not too tampered for believers to make conclusions, but too tampered for revisionists to make their conclusions." as I say that applies to both sides. In fact only the believers go on to look at the other evidence, the deniers just ignore it or cry it is all faked.
This is of course utter nonsense, as proven even by exterminationists, there are no holes 70 cm x 70 cm so nonsense from Nessie, "deniers" can use roof without problem. Needless to say that there are not even smaller introduction holes. The last sentence is again falsehood as usual.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:5)Great, this means that you can tell me how these devices were fitted on the floor, can you show me traces of fitting on the floor?
5 - I don't know if or how they fitted onto the floor. If the whole structure was to be raised up and down, they may have not needed fitting at all.
5)He does not know, again quite revealing. Can Nessie tell me how this "whole structure" (he has not a slightest clue about the construction of this alleged device) which didn´t has any fittings on the floor - as he suggested - survived mass of alleged victims?
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote: 6)These fictional devices are reported to have square section with side 70 cm and height 3m, can you show me holes measuring at least - let´s say - 71cm x 71 cm to be able to accommodated these devices?
6 - not precisely no. But the state of the roof prevents anyone from doing that. All that can be done is a an approximation. It may be possible in the future if a proper forensic study was done.
6)Not precisely no, this individual has not a slightest clue about how even the orthodox sources (Pelt, Mazal et. al.) already established that there are no alleged introduction holes with the side of 70cm and he believes that they will be maybe discovered!
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:7)Tell me Nessie, how much time gas spent in contact with the walls in AHGCH, and how much time in the case of delousing chamber?
7 - no idea, I found out from you during the debate on prove clothes only went into the gas chambers that clothing needs and got longer to delouse than people need to die.
7)So no idea, yet he claims that "The blue colour is explained by the length of time clothing was deloused compared to the time people spent in the chambers being gassed."!
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:8)What is your explanation of the fact that according to analysis of Leuchter´s/Rudolf´s samples (experiment samples included) conducted by Alpha Analytic Laboratories/Fresenius Institute/Institute for Environmental Analytics - alleged homicidal gas chambers are practically without reproducible cyanide traces which are in order of magnitude of those found in washroom, bavarian house or inmate barracks (in all cases only up to 9,6 mg/kg) but delousing chambers showed concentrations up to 13,5g/kg?
8 - is that Leuchter the BA from Boston but self proclaimed engineer and expert? The one who lied about the samples that were subsequently used in the Zundel trial?
8)So again, faced with simple question he dodged my question and answered it by question which his again full of falsehoods! So again: What is your explanation of the fact that according to analysis of Leuchter´s/Rudolf´s samples (experiment samples included) conducted by Alpha Analytic Laboratories/Fresenius Institute/Institute for Environmental Analytics - alleged homicidal gas chambers are practically without reproducible cyanide traces which are in order of magnitude of those found in washroom, bavarian house or inmate barracks (in all cases only up to 9,6 mg/kg) but delousing chambers showed concentrations up to 13,5g/kg?
How about a report from a Professor of Forensic Toxicology?
This individual just googled and quoted only 5 (only one paragraph is somehow relevant) paragraphs from original report from 1990 and he really thought that this is "report". Because of inability to demonstrate some cyanide in alleged gas chambers (namely in cII) - this report was never published but smuggled out from IFFR, only one sample showed "almost indetectably small traces" which is no surprise in place occasionally fumigated by Zyklon B. Now the only part relevant to the subject:

Therefore, one can hardly assume that traces of cyanic compounds could still be detected in construction materials (plaster, brick) after 45 years, after being subjected to the weather and the elements (rain, acid oxides, especially sulfuric and nitrogen oxides). More reliable would be the analysis of wall plaster [samples] from closed rooms which were not subject to weather and the elements (including acid rain).

But as we know, this is simple nonsense as everybody can see today on the walls or as proven by analysis of samples taken by Leuchter or Rudolf. It was already established at the time of this report that stable iron cyanide compounds (namely Prussian Blue) are practically not affected by weather or elements during the decades. (J.M. Kape, E.C. Mills, Tranp. Inst. Met. Finish., 35 (1958), pp. 353-384; ibid., 59 (1981), pp. 35-39.)

Now I will wait, he will for sure google as hell for more, thus after some time he will discover their second published report - and no doubt - without reading it and without ability to understand it, he will present it here as an "irrefutable proof".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Off topic: He /Leuchter is not self-proclaimed expert, here are references which speaks about him as an expert.

The Atlantic Monthly (Feb. 1990)
New York Times article (October 13, 1990)
Stephen Trombley, The Execution Protocol, Crown Publishers, New York 1992, p. 8.
Letter of Bill Armontrout, warden, (Prison in Jefferson City, Missouri.)


Even Nessie´s well of knowledge - wikipedia - asserts: "is an American Federal Court qualified expert in execution technology" - thus Nessie again unmasked himself as an individual who is not even capable to read own source.

As for criticism of expertise backed up by proper diploma, I will leave aside the falsehood which is even quite clear exposed above, here will be the best expose the double standard and intellectual dishonesty of this Nessie:

Jean Claude Pressac - pharmacist
Deborah Lipstadt - professor of modern jewish studies
Robert Jan Van Pelt - architectural historian
Werner Wagner - social worker
John C. Zimmerman - associate professor, accountant (his source for history, cremations and cremation technology)
Jan Markiewicz - technical testing specialist (his source for chemistry)

and so on...

9)Tell me Nessie, how exactly Leuchter lied about the samples? Quote here his lie please.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:30 pm

Bob wrote:
......Nessie is beating a dead horse, these fantasies tirelessly repeated by "believers" on forums are easily refuted by simply reading the document itself. His inventions are thus refuted again.

......
With you, I am beating a dead horse. Your inventions and fantasies are only shared by a few denier/revisionsist who have persistently shown themselves to be wholly irresponsible when it comes to evidence and instead embark on a embarrassing for them propaganda campaign. Your last couple of posts are so riddled with lies, nonsense, dodges and deceit that I started a few times to reply and then thought, no point.

Your inability to follow a basic line of enquiry and evidencing is at times so bad that I have to wonder if you are not just trolling rather than being serious.

For example, you bleat on about Buchenwald not being mentioned in the Wanssee Protocol. I know that. But only you cannot see that what was planned at Wannsee was the forced emmigration and then evacution of Jews, to go to camps or ghettos, to work or labour and then die from natural causes. Then at Buchenwald and numerous other camps, what happened? Jews were forced to go to the camp to work and then many died there. But no according to you, who does not understand what large quantities are and is unsure about natural causes means. Instead like a stuck record you run back to the line which only you ever came up with that Buchenwald is not mentioned in Wannsee. You then pronounce that is a refutation of what I have said, which it is not not anyone who can follow a normal argument and expect me to toe your line and not raise the issue again.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:01 pm

Nessie finally understood that is end, so his comment is again full of unfounded accusations and dodging, I will address only his new lie:
Then at Buchenwald and numerous other camps, what happened? Jews were forced to go to the camp to work and then many died there. But no according to you
I have never said such a nonsense and no surprise he didn´t quote me as usual, I have never claimed that - jews were not forced to work - they did not die - this is again outrageous lie and invention from this dishonest individual, (in fact not only jews died, but gentiles are non-existing for this individual, maybe Nessie is jewish), this thread is full of my quotes which states that "jews/peoples were not send to Buchenwald to work to/till die in accordance with some plan or intention to kill them" and that is the big difference, and this was always my answer on falsehoods produced be Nessie, according to him, they were sent there to work to death according to plan from Wannsee.

If his claim would have been - "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" - then I would not have had any objection, but this is unlikely as this would not fit his unfounded belief.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:06 pm

Bob wrote:
......
So we have a typhus epidemic killing 80 people a day during a month when one Nazi writes to another saying the retorts can deal with 4,756 persons in a 24 hour period.

So 4,756 minus 80 is 4676 (this is an approximate as we do not know the specific typhus death rate on June 28th 1943.

You said "Needless to say that Nessie dodged simple question what caused this mortality if not still ongoing typhus epidemic. Is obvious why." No it is not, answer the question what did the others die from?

You hypothesis that typhus explains the sheer number if retorts at Birkenau further falls down when you look at the problems and break downs experienced there. If only 80 or so bodies were being cremated a day the retorts would be like the ones at Birkenau and able to cope with the number of deaths. With 46 retorts we are talking under two bodies per retort, though more likely is to have one or two functioning and the rest lying unused. So if the are at such a low capacity or are unused, why do they break down so much?

Lets go with your figure of planning for 200,000. I will use 46 retorts as that is what was planned and was there in Birkenau started in 1942. So by 1943 we have Bischoff reporting 4756 people cremated a day, that means the entire camp population cremated in 42 days.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305177" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nessie admitted that he was wrong when he falsely claimed "There was no epidemic then."

Nessie ignores falsehoods of this theoretical capacity stated in the document, he simply accepted it as correct ignoring the counter evidence.

Nessie ignores that muffles were planned and constructed during the July/August 1942 for the possible risk of similar epidemic (which raged in the camp in the summer/August of 1942) in the camp with planned population of 200,000, and not for conditions in month June 1943.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p304813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nessie ignores that installed muffles/crematoria never worked simultaneously as already proven to him even by his own source.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nessie again confirmed his terrible math and terrible ability to grasp a content of comments or documents, I played with him this "game" about wrong data in the document dated June 28 1943 and I waited very long to give him a chance to be able to correct himself, but now is clear that this is not going to happen even when I provided him with hints, for example when I said:

Nessie also deliberately omitted in his calculation, that number of new planned muffles was 31 and not 46, 46 is total capacity of new planned crematoria (31) + crematorium 2 (15), but this crematorium 2 was already planned and designed from the fall of 1941 as a replacement for old crematorium 1 in the main camp.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"i will use ONLY (WRONG) data from Nessie"
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 00#p305137" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"five crematoria"
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p305431" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His own document speaks in fact about 52 muffles of five crematoria and capacity of 4,756, but this individual still speaks only about 46 muffles of four crematoria but his capacity is still 4,756! Correct capacity of 46 muffles based on data in document is 4,416 of course.

Nessie again dodged question what caused death of these peoples if not typhus since he informed us that according to him, only some two thousands peoples died during some half period of entire existence of the camp. Instead of answer he answered question by question, but my answer is clear, they died because of typhus.

......
Yes Bob, I will admit to being wrong, when shown to be, learn from it. So a typhus epdiemic killing about 80 a day in June 1943. That still does not explain the difference in the number dying from typhus and the numbers the Nazis report being cremated.

Your evidence that 4756 is a theoretical capacity amounts to nothing, a byline which uses the word estimate. Is there anything in the document which states that is only a theoretical number? Even if it is an estimated number, like the estimate of 80 a day dying from typhus, why such a huge gap?

You keep goign back to a camp of 200,000 in theory and saying that is what the kremas were planned for. But 200,000 at 4756 a day means the plan was to be able to exterminate the entire camp in 42 days.

I acknowledge not all the retorts worked at the same time and showed a very good reason why, over use. That is evidenced by the 4756 a day compared to what Topf said was the capacity and the use of open air pyres.

I have been using the totals for retorts, not planned, the total for Birkenau being 46 with the rest at Krema I. That is what the 4756 refers to. Play your stupid games, I am well away of your stupid games and how they are designed to attack me and not the arguments. I mainly ignore them and try and conduct a reasonable debate. But as shown, it is like flogging a dead horse.

You said "Nessie again dodged question what caused death of these peoples if not typhus since he informed us that according to him, only some two thousands peoples died during some half period of entire existence of the camp. Instead of answer he answered question by question, but my answer is clear, they died because of typhus."

It is not according to me, don't lie. It is according to the camp death records. It seems odd that the death records say just over 2000 typhus deaths, if the disease was such a problem why not say so? Why cover it up? It seems odd that the hypothesis of typhus being the only reason for so many retorts only appeared in the 1970s and it remains just that, a hypothesis.

The reason why when there were approxiamtely 80 typhus deaths a day in June 1943 the Nazis were writing to each other saying the Krema capacity was 4756 was because many people were dying from something other than typhus. They were being gassed.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:20 pm

Bob wrote:Nessie finally understood that is end, so his comment is again full of unfounded accusations and dodging, I will address only his new lie:
Then at Buchenwald and numerous other camps, what happened? Jews were forced to go to the camp to work and then many died there. But no according to you
I have never said such a nonsense and no surprise he didn´t quote me as usual, I have never claimed that - jews were not forced to work - they did not die - this is again outrageous lie and invention from this dishonest individual, (in fact not only jews died, but gentiles are non-existing for this individual, maybe Nessie is jewish), this thread is full of my quotes which states that "jews/peoples were not send to Buchenwald to work to/till die in accordance with some plan or intention to kill them" and that is the big difference, and this was always my answer on falsehoods produced be Nessie, according to him, they were sent there to work to death according to plan from Wannsee.

If his claim would have been - "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" - then I would not have had any objection, but this is unlikely as this would not fit his unfounded belief.
If you accept "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" as an accurate description I am happy to go with that. Quite what the difference between that and what I have been saying, my alledged unfounded belief is beyond me.

That we disagree such a scheme was planned at Wannsee is another debate.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:28 pm

Nessie should re read last two pages, i will not repeat myself again to expose again the very same falsehoods in his comment. It is worth of note how he quite often shifts responsibility for his falsehoods on other "your game" "it was not me, but records" and etc.
If you accept "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" as an accurate description I am happy to go with that. Quite what the difference between that and what I have been saying, my alledged unfounded belief is beyond me.
Exactly like the math, calendar months or understanding to documents or to grasp a content of my comments, this is obviously beyond him, since my comment and quote does not suggest any intention to kill peoples by forced work, to make them work to death in accordance with some alleged plan. That is the big difference, now he miraculously changed his claim and accepted my quote, this man is really unpredictable!
That we disagree such a scheme was planned at Wannsee is another debate.
Again nonsense, there is clearly stated that they will use them as a labor force, (there are many documents about it), but not in Buchenwald nor in any other particular camp, but in the east and without any intention to work them to death or to kill them in accordance with some plan.

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:03 am

Maybe we should ask if Zyklon B COULD be used in the first place as murder weapon?
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:55 am

Bob wrote:Nessie should re read last two pages, i will not repeat myself again to expose again the very same falsehoods in his comment. It is worth of note how he quite often shifts responsibility for his falsehoods on other "your game" "it was not me, but records" and etc.
If you accept "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" as an accurate description I am happy to go with that. Quite what the difference between that and what I have been saying, my alledged unfounded belief is beyond me.
Exactly like the math, calendar months or understanding to documents or to grasp a content of my comments, this is obviously beyond him, since my comment and quote does not suggest any intention to kill peoples by forced work, to make them work to death in accordance with some alleged plan. That is the big difference, now he miraculously changed his claim and accepted my quote, this man is really unpredictable!
That we disagree such a scheme was planned at Wannsee is another debate.
Again nonsense, there is clearly stated that they will use them as a labor force, (there are many documents about it), but not in Buchenwald nor in any other particular camp, but in the east and without any intention to work them to death or to kill them in accordance with some plan.
Yes I shift your made up falsehoods back on to you. If you are unhappy about that stop claiming lies where you have to adapt or make up quotes about what I really said. When someone quotes a source, and you are unhappy with what they said then dispute the source, otherwise you are attacking the person and not the argument, so ad hominem.

For example post #243

"Instead of this, he lies about documents:

what did the 4,756 person who were being cremated in a day (as reported by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff in June 1943)

But this "4,756 person were being cremated in day" is not stated in the document of course, he completely invented it."

Yet the letter clearly lists numbers of cremations. That you claim that number of people were not actually cremated and it was an estimate does not mean I am lying. It means I have a different interpretation of what the letter means. Is it an estimate or the actual number? Evidence your point and show a translation of the letter which shows it was an estimate and I will accept what you say. I asked for that back in #252.

Then in post #258 you say "Ok, he is again proven liar, there is not a single word about sending peoples to Buchenwald to force them to work till die". But that is making up something I did not say. I said Wannsee was about the forced evacuation of Jews to camps where they would work and die. I never said the Protocol mentioned Buchenwald and then we come to a difference in interpretation about what would happen to the Jews. There is no lie there, you have made it up.

Stop your tactic of making up lies about me. I have shown I am happy to be corrected if wrong. Being wrong is way different from lying. If we have a different interpretation then accept it, it is not lying to disagree with you.

The reason why you find nothing in the Wannsee Protocol that says the plan was to work people till they died in large numbers is because you are uncertain about large portion and natural causes means

"the only thing I see in his "evidence" is that able bodied Jews will be separated and used as labor force in the east, in this case, large portion will be eliminated by natural causes, we do not know what is meant by large portion and what is meant by natural causes, but probably diseases."

By large portion I say the majority and natural causes I say diseases, accidents, old age. The plan being to eliminate the Jews by that means. Plus there was a special plan of "have to be treated accordingly" for the more hardy ones who did not die in such a way. That is hardly a benevolent, harmless, OK way to deal with a group of people. It is ethnic cleansing.

Quite how you can say "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" and then claim "my comment and quote does not suggest any intention to kill peoples by forced work," is beyond me.

We agree the plan was to use the Jews as a labour force in the East, but the plan involves "Europe will be combed through from west to east" and "The evacuated Jews will first be sent, group by group, to so-called transit ghettos, from which they will be transported to the East." So we have a gradual forced evacuation from West to East stopping at places on the way. Since Buchenwald was first built in 1937, it is hardly surprising that it is being used for Jewish prisoners to work in 1942. I am quite sure if the plan had worked and the Nazis had won the War, the Jews would have all ended up in the East. Of course the course of the War meant Wannsee did not go to plan.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:10 am

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:1)Tell me how they introduced these introduction holes for Zyklon B to already constructed roof made of iron reinforced concrete some 18 cm thick and in the way to be able to make them gas-tight.
1 - I do not know for sure, I would assume drilling and cutting. Hence the train photos where they covered over the holes after they had been made. As for gas tight, we have been through this before. A tent can be gas tight enough that someone inside can die of CO poisoning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jul/0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... th-camping

But your idea of gas tight means this

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/gascham.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So it would be easy with a wooden box sealed with pitch or tar to make a gas tight cover.

1)He doesn´t know for sure, hm, this is revealing, but he is sure they did it! Drilling and cutting "somehow with something" through the reinforced concrete 18 cm thick and in "some" way in which they did not disturbed stability of the construction. This is of course nonsense. What some tent or wooden box has to do with this subject, i do not know, this individual apparently confused wooden chimneys in crematorium I with alleged chimneys in crematorium II-III.



.......
You know my knowledge about the detail of Krema II is not great. You know I have read both sides reports. You know based on that I have concluded Krema II has been too badly damaged to draw any absolute conclusions from it, though, if properly qualified forensic scientists, scenes of crime analysts were to go and study the building's remains I would reconsider that. So there is nothing revealing about me saying I am not sure how it was done to make the holes. The reason why I say there were holes in the roof is from other evidence, such as the train photo and the chimneys and the witnesses.

The reference to tents and wooden boxes was to answer your question about making the holes gas tight. It is not difficult to make something gas tight enough that people can die within a confined space, hence the reference to a death in a tent and the wooden box is a means of making a gas tight chimney.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Nessie » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:22 am

Bob wrote:
......

2)I already informed Nessie that accoring to historiography, they were used for fastening of fake showers. That is not all, they also allegedly changed opening direction of doors from inside to outside (previously from outside to inside to room), planned and installed stairs to alleged undressing room for victims, they substituted double-leaf door for single leaf door, installed gas tight door with peephole, eliminated corpse chute...and etc. so again my very simple question no. 2: Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what?

........

3)Tell me Nessie, how exactly can be roof damaged that allegedly genuine opening will be shrunk, since there is not a one single alleged introduction hole with the side of 70cm. Explain to me this "magic".


.......
2 - I would say that from your descriptive of all of the changes that did take place with Krema II, the wooden straps could have been installed during the build for an original plan that was altered at a later date. Hence the changing of doors etc. The use of Krema II was altered, just as happened with Krema I.

3 - if the hole was not made in the first place I am quite sure making it through re-inforced concrete would not produce precise sides of 70cm in a nice neat line. Hence no such holes with precise 70cm sides have been found. When the building was blown up the holes where the voids were, the force of the explosion would have a different effect than on a slab of reinforced concrete. I would again say that would alter their original shape. Finally as the roof collapses voids would not remain but get filled in with debris. So again they would not be as they were when first made.
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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:03 pm

For example post #243

"Instead of this, he lies about documents:

what did the 4,756 person who were being cremated in a day (as reported by SS-Sturmbannführer Bischoff in June 1943)

But this "4,756 person were being cremated in day" is not stated in the document of course, he completely invented it."

Yet the letter clearly lists numbers of cremations. That you claim that number of people were not actually cremated and it was an estimate does not mean I am lying. It means I have a different interpretation of what the letter means. Is it an estimate or the actual number? Evidence your point and show a translation of the letter which shows it was an estimate and I will accept what you say. I asked for that back in #252.
This is gain false, not my claim, but i backed up that even orthodox sources claims this is an estimate, as far as I know, Nessie is probably first who ever claimed that document says that 4,756 peoples were cremated on some day in June. This doesn´t mean Nessie has different interpretation, this means that Nessie invented something what is not in the document. Period.
Then in post #258 you say "Ok, he is again proven liar, there is not a single word about sending peoples to Buchenwald to force them to work till die". But that is making up something I did not say. I said Wannsee was about the forced evacuation of Jews to camps where they would work and die. I never said the Protocol mentioned Buchenwald and then we come to a difference in interpretation about what would happen to the Jews. There is no lie there, you have made it up.

Stop your tactic of making up lies about me. I have shown I am happy to be corrected if wrong. Being wrong is way different from lying. If we have a different interpretation then accept it, it is not lying to disagree with you.

The reason why you find nothing in the Wannsee Protocol that says the plan was to work people till they died in large numbers is because you are uncertain about large portion and natural causes means

"the only thing I see in his "evidence" is that able bodied Jews will be separated and used as labor force in the east, in this case, large portion will be eliminated by natural causes, we do not know what is meant by large portion and what is meant by natural causes, but probably diseases."

By large portion I say the majority and natural causes I say diseases, accidents, old age. The plan being to eliminate the Jews by that means. Plus there was a special plan of "have to be treated accordingly" for the more hardy ones who did not die in such a way. That is hardly a benevolent, harmless, OK way to deal with a group of people. It is ethnic cleansing.
Thank you that you have confirmed I was correct about you and your nonsense, you again repeated it, here is more:

Nessie - So whilst not an extermination camp in name, it was built to meet the plan of work and die. ; The evidence that people were sent to Buchenwald to work and die...

Buchenwald was built/open in 1937 to meet some alleged plan "created" in 1942 - alleged plan for Jews to to work and die in the camp, i.e. some 4 years before the alleged policy of evacuation to east and alleged extermination actually existed or some 4.5 years before Wannsee - source for this plan for Nessie. For this alleged plan, they prepared crematoria capacity (muffles/number of detainees/mortality) which surpassed even cremation capacity of alleged extermination camp Birkenau or completely non-existent crematoria capacity in alleged pure extermination AR camps.

I will no more address his utter nonsenses and clear inventions about Buchenwald based on nothing. I already refuted everything about it and repeatedly by many sources. That he ignores it, that is his business. Period.
Quite how you can say "jews were forced to work in the camps, and many of them died because of causes like disease, age, exhaustion" and then claim "my comment and quote does not suggest any intention to kill peoples by forced work," is beyond me.
Yes, I know this is beyond you, thank you, I already realized it.
We agree the plan was to use the Jews as a labour force in the East, but the plan involves "Europe will be combed through from west to east" and "The evacuated Jews will first be sent, group by group, to so-called transit ghettos, from which they will be transported to the East." So we have a gradual forced evacuation from West to East stopping at places on the way. Since Buchenwald was first built in 1937, it is hardly surprising that it is being used for Jewish prisoners to work in 1942. I am quite sure if the plan had worked and the Nazis had won the War, the Jews would have all ended up in the East. Of course the course of the War meant Wannsee did not go to plan.
So the same nonsenses plus some new - now he transformed Buchenwald to "ghetto".

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Re: Gas introduction in crematorium 2 in Auschwitz-Birkenau

Post by Bob » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:21 pm

You know my knowledge about the detail of Krema II is not great. You know I have read both sides reports. You know based on that I have concluded Krema II has been too badly damaged to draw any absolute conclusions from it, though, if properly qualified forensic scientists, scenes of crime analysts were to go and study the building's remains I would reconsider that. So there is nothing revealing about me saying I am not sure how it was done to make the holes. The reason why I say there were holes in the roof is from other evidence, such as the train photo and the chimneys and the witnesses.

The reference to tents and wooden boxes was to answer your question about making the holes gas tight. It is not difficult to make something gas tight enough that people can die within a confined space, hence the reference to a death in a tent and the wooden box is a means of making a gas tight chimney.
1)In the other words, fundamental question no. 1 is again without an answer so closed, he does not know. Problem with other claim from Nessie is that nobody ever claimed something about tents or wooden boxes, this is just ridiculous.
2 - I would say that from your descriptive of all of the changes that did take place with Krema II, the wooden straps could have been installed during the build for an original plan that was altered at a later date. Hence the changing of doors etc. The use of Krema II was altered, just as happened with Krema I.
2)Answer to this very simple question: Tell me why they during the construction of the roof installed wooden plates allegedly used for fastening of "fake" showers used to trick victims, and why not the most important thing - the introduction holes for Zyklon B themselves - if you claim that they created them after the roof was constructed. I am awaiting your explanation. They forgot or what? - is again completely missing.

Now hold you breath folks:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:3)Tell me Nessie, how exactly can be roof damaged that allegedly genuine opening will be shrunk, since there is not a one single alleged introduction hole with the side of 70cm. Explain to me this "magic".
3 - if the hole was not made in the first place I am quite sure making it through re-inforced concrete would not produce precise sides of 70cm in a nice neat line. Hence no such holes with precise 70cm sides have been found. When the building was blown up the holes where the voids were, the force of the explosion would have a different effect than on a slab of reinforced concrete. I would again say that would alter their original shape. Finally as the roof collapses voids would not remain but get filled in with debris. So again they would not be as they were when first made.
3)According to this individual, explosion altered alleged introduction holes in the way, that they were "shrunken" from 70cm to some smaller size because I already informed him, that there are no reported alleged introduction holes with this side, for this reason they already invented new "estimated" size of some 50cm. Is this man out of his mind? (rhetoric question)

I am afraid that future debate with this individual is waste of time, his claims are simply not part of orthodox version anymore, but I wanted to see how he is able to defend his own claims, but when I see what he produces, is clear that that something must be wrong with him.