Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

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Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:08 pm

Just wondering.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by OlegTheBatty » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:20 pm

Cognitive dissonance?
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:28 pm

Is Holocaust denial a faith or faith based system? Absolutely not! Try debating about holocaust denial and it is all about the evidence, or lack of it, what counts as evidence, what does not and it is in effect the Holocaust on trial. Faith has no place in our court room!
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by David » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:36 am

Gawdzilla wrote:Just wondering.
Not very hard. As in wondering where 5,000,000 bodies could
go without a trace.
Or wondering if all the "evidence" produced by the Soviets is reliable.
Or wondering why discussing history is a crime in Western Europe
punishable by 5 years in jail.
Or wondering if governments lie to their own citizens.

You should learn something from Bob.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by White Wolf » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:38 pm

To be blindly following a story proported to be true while not allowing any questioning of the evidence is sheer stupidity.

The truth has nothing to fear.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:08 pm

David wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Just wondering.
Not very hard. As in wondering where 5,000,000 bodies could
go without a trace.
Or wondering if all the "evidence" produced by the Soviets is reliable.
Or wondering why discussing history is a crime in Western Europe
punishable by 5 years in jail.
Or wondering if governments lie to their own citizens.

You should learn something from Bob.
Next time I clean out the septic tank I'll take a look at his material.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:45 pm

White Wolf wrote:To be blindly following a story proported to be true while not allowing any questioning of the evidence is sheer stupidity.

The truth has nothing to fear.
Pure historical study is still legal. If you present evidenced based studies then you would have nothing to fear. But open your position with the claim that people are "blindly following a story proported to be true" you show an agenda that has been (wrongly) banned.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by David » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:15 am

Nessie wrote:
White Wolf wrote:To be blindly following a story proported to be true while not allowing any questioning of the evidence is sheer stupidity.

The truth has nothing to fear.
Pure historical study is still legal. If you present evidenced based studies then you would have nothing to fear. But open your position with the claim that people are "blindly following a story proported to be true" you show an agenda that has been (wrongly) banned.

Saying anything publicly is a felony. Ask Jurgen Graf
or Professor Faurison. Zundel was very careful to try and present "evidence based studies" in his defense in front of Hanging Judge Meinerzhagen.
The German law defines Revisionism as Volksverhetzung, "a hate crime per se" and truth is no defense under Penal law 120.3.

And Revisionists always accuse mainline believers of blindly following some
untrue story...and they always take Sh*t for it. Holocaust Revisionists
are just subject to the highest level of oppression in today's society.


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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:27 am

So a study which concludes there was no gas chamber at Krema II is illegal, but a study that concludes there was is legal?

I thought the law was just to stop people shouting in streets or publishing in pamphlets that the Nazis were the good guys and the Holocaust did not happen at all.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:40 pm

Nessie wrote:So a study which concludes there was no gas chamber at Krema II is illegal, but a study that concludes there was is legal?

I thought the law was just to stop people shouting in streets or publishing in pamphlets that the Nazis were the good guys and the Holocaust did not happen at all.
In my country and (I guess) in other countries with law against "denial" is really against the law to say or write anything what dispute the basic "facts" of holocaust, i mean gas chambers, death toll, genuinity of some documents, and other basic "facts", because without these points, no holocaust, logical. But there are also some strange exceptions, when orthodox historians or sources are not prosecuted for "denial" speeches or writings.

Yes, you can say or write anything what agree with holocaust, but you can´t say or write anything what disagree with Holocaust in basic points and no matter how scholarly your work is, no matter what are your arguments, no matter that you are correct and no matter that you quote expert literature, you are simply prosecuted with this logic "because it happened, you must be wrong and you are anti-semite and racist nazi", similar to this nonsense below which has been adressed to prof. Robert Faurisson long time ago in 1979 when he questioned how this was possible:
"One must not ask how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was possible technically because it took place.”

Pierre Vidal-Naquet, Léon Poliakov, and thirty-two other historians
Le Monde, February 21, 1979
This thread has bad name, this is correct name "Is Holocaust belief a "faith" or "faith-based" system?"

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:10 pm

BS aside, you should read my sig.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:15 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:BS aside, you should read my sig.
If this was for me, sorry, don´t know what you mean with your sig.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:04 pm

The history of WWII, including facts about the Holocaust. I find deniers to be woefully deficient (often willingly so) in knowledge of the events. So, have at it. Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites, so you'll come back in about fifteen minutes and say, "I see nothing there that would change my mind."
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:43 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:The history of WWII, including facts about the Holocaust. I find deniers to be woefully deficient (often willingly so) in knowledge of the events. So, have at it. Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites, so you'll come back in about fifteen minutes and say, "I see nothing there that would change my mind."
Can you show me some example of some holocaust fact where the "deniers" are woefully deficient in knowledge so they are wrong?
Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites
You can quote some bits of holocaust facts and post it for example here, you are welcome.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:11 pm

Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The history of WWII, including facts about the Holocaust. I find deniers to be woefully deficient (often willingly so) in knowledge of the events. So, have at it. Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites, so you'll come back in about fifteen minutes and say, "I see nothing there that would change my mind."
Can you show me some example of some holocaust fact where the "deniers" are woefully deficient in knowledge so they are wrong?
Yep, but only if asked.
Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites
You can quote some bits of holocaust facts and post it for example here, you are welcome.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do your own digging. I'd rather spend my time digitizing Grand Strategy II. Requests from deniers is below zero on my priorities list.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:35 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The history of WWII, including facts about the Holocaust. I find deniers to be woefully deficient (often willingly so) in knowledge of the events. So, have at it. Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites, so you'll come back in about fifteen minutes and say, "I see nothing there that would change my mind."
Can you show me some example of some holocaust fact where the "deniers" are woefully deficient in knowledge so they are wrong?
Yep, but only if asked.
Please, I asked you, can you show me example?
Gawdzilla wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites
You can quote some bits of holocaust facts and post it for example here, you are welcome.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17691" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do your own digging. I'd rather spend my time digitizing Grand Strategy II. Requests from deniers is below zero on my priorities list.
You can´t, ok.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:37 pm

Bob, I regard holocaust deniers to be in the same category as child molesters. Not personal, but you have chosen to self-identify with that kind of person. So where do I put requests from you?
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:06 pm

I find that Holocaust revisionists have put some very strong cases to back up their arguments. I have no problem when revisionism is also backed up by the 'official side' such as the numbers who died at Auschwitz being revised down by a significant number.

Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:43 pm

Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:56 pm

There was a problem in the UK for many years that as soon as you started to question immigration policy and racial integration you were instantly condemned as a racist. Thankfully we are coming away from that.

I hate the way that discussing the Holocaust can leave you open to accusations of anti-semtism and the rest. I hasten to add that has not happened here, but I certainly keep quiet about my thoughts elsewhere.

I have a grudging respect for some revisionists who have had dogs abuse for standing up for ther beliefs. Deniers are just nuts and really deserve what they get.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:58 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:02 pm

Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.
For you, anything! Except something I actually have to do.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:04 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.
For you, anything! Except something I actually have to do.
You can´t, ok.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:07 pm

You don't get "dismissive" very well.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:10 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:You don't get "dismissive" very well.
Pardon?

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:38 pm

Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.
This video puts forward very good arguments. It then falls apart for me at 1:05:37 when a list is given of which number one includes "despite politically correct opinion , Hitler did not start the war.....war was forced on him, firstly by the international Zionists....". The Final Solution was "a mutual signed contract with the Zionists to deport Jews to Madagascar", though that is followed by a claim the Jews wanted lots of war victims to gain Palestine. Those at the camps died of disease and in many cases Jews got more food than local Germans to the camps. Apparently many Jews "had enough of being Jewish". So it goes on. None of that is backed up by anything like the evidence presented earlier in the video. It is just a rant bashing Jews and making out the war was not Hitler's fault and the Nazis were not as bad as the Allies.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:21 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.
This video puts forward very good arguments. It then falls apart for me at 1:05:37 when a list is given of which number one includes "despite politically correct opinion , Hitler did not start the war.....war was forced on him, firstly by the international Zionists....". The Final Solution was "a mutual signed contract with the Zionists to deport Jews to Madagascar", though that is followed by a claim the Jews wanted lots of war victims to gain Palestine. Those at the camps died of disease and in many cases Jews got more food than local Germans to the camps. Apparently many Jews "had enough of being Jewish". So it goes on. None of that is backed up by anything like the evidence presented earlier in the video. It is just a rant bashing Jews and making out the war was not Hitler's fault and the Nazis were not as bad as the Allies.
You propably mean this video
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany." - David A. Brown, National Chairman, United Jewish Campaign, 1934 (quoted in "I Testify Against The Jews" by Robert Edward Edmondson, page 188 and "The Jewish War of Survival" by Arnold Leese, page 52).

"Hitler will have no war (does not want war), but we will force it on him, not this year, but soon." - Emil Ludwig Cohn in Les Annales, June, 1934 (also quoted in his book "The New Holy Alliance").

"Judea Declares War on Germany!" - Daily Express headline, March 24, 1933.

"Judea Declares War on Germany! Jews of all the World Unite! Boycott of German Goods! Mass Demonstrations!" - These were all headlines in the Daily Express on March 24, 1933.

...we will undermine the Hitler regime and bring the German people to their senses by destroying their export trade on which their very existence depends." - Samuel Undermeyer, in a Radio Broadcast on WABC, New York, August 6, 1933. Reported in the New York Times, August 7, 1933.

...But our Jewish interests demand the complete destruction of Germany. Collectively and individually, the German nation is a threat to us Jews." - Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of the Jewish terrorist group, Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Mascha Rjetsch, January, 1934 (also quoted in "Histoire de l'Armée Allemande" by Jacques Benoist-Mechin, Vol. IV, p. 303).


"The Second World War is being fought for the defense of the fundamentals of Judaism." - Rabbi Felix Mendlesohn, Chicago Sentinel, October 8, 1942.

"It is untrue that I or anyone else in Germany wanted war in 1939. It was wanted and provoked solely by international statesmen either of Jewish origin or working for Jewish interests. Nor had I ever wished that after the appalling first World War, there would ever be a second against either England or America." - Adolf Hitler, Political Testament, April 29, 1945. (written shortly before his suicide)

Only a few examples of evidence which doesn´t exist according to Nessie.

Nessie shoud be sure next time that he know basic information, Nessie doesn´t know the evidence, ok, but this doesn´t mean that evidence don´t exist. Nessie based accusation on false assumption that evidence is not here.

I must repeat my question again since I don´t see any example or evidence, that revisionists say what they say only with reasons mentioned by Nessie or Gawdzilla (because of hate for Jews, to apologize Hitler) - Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.

Nessie or Gawdzilla accused revisionists from serious accustation, so I would like to see their back up arguments.

You both want to tell, that I hate Jews and want bring back Hitler and these are reasons why I say what I say?

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:55 pm

Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:You don't get "dismissive" very well.
Pardon?
See?

Anyway, you claim it never happened, you provide proof. Those who have too much time on their hands might look at it.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:04 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:You don't get "dismissive" very well.
Pardon?
See?

Anyway, you claim it never happened, you provide proof. Those who have too much time on their hands might look at it.
So exactly as I said before, you can´t, ok, no problem.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by David » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:38 am

Nessie wrote:So a study which concludes there was no gas chamber at Krema II is illegal, but a study that concludes there was is legal?

Yes.

I thought the law was just to stop people shouting in streets or publishing in pamphlets that the Nazis were the good guys and the Holocaust did not happen at all.
No. Or more correctly, the law defines saying there was
no gas chamber at Krema II as "hate speech."
So...the only thing criminalized is "hate speech" by definition.
That is why it is ok to say there was a gas chamber but a felony to say
there was not. That is also why truth is no defense.


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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:42 am

Is it any wonder no sane person believes this crap?
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by David » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:53 am

Gawdzilla wrote:The history of WWII, including facts about the Holocaust. I find deniers to be woefully deficient (often willingly so) in knowledge of the events. So, have at it. Only 75 gigabytes of files in the first two sites, so you'll come back in about fifteen minutes and say, "I see nothing there that would change my mind."
Heck, I am not sure what a 75 gigabytes file of history really means. I tend to
like my history one book at a time.

I do see a lot of self-congratulatory mythology in history and a lot
of political self-justification and out and out lying....which is common among believers of all kinds.
I don't even care except that you Believers are out banning honest discussion.
I keep thinking "F*ck, are we really in the 21st Century!?! and Believers are
still burning books and jailing scholars. Humans never change, I guess.
There will always be A**hole Believers.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by David » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:58 am

Gawdzilla wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:You don't get "dismissive" very well.
Pardon?
See?

Anyway, you claim it never happened, you provide proof. Those who have too much time on their hands might look at it.
Gawdzilla, What do you mean "it never happened?"

Is it too hard for you to grasp the concept that some of the Story is true,
some has been exaggerated, and some has been made up?

Which of the following are true?
1. Racist laws
2. Deportation of civilians
3. Detention of "Enemy Aliens."
4. Human Soap Factories.
5. Steam Chambers of Death.



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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:08 am

Gawdzilla wrote:Is it any wonder no sane person believes this crap?
I think that is a little bit impolite to call holocaust story a crap, but overal point of Gawdzilla´s statement is valid.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:14 am

Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:Is it any wonder no sane person believes this crap?
I think that is a little bit impolite to call holocaust story a crap, but overal point of Gawdzilla´s statement is valid.
You fun. Me rikey you.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:39 am

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
Nessie wrote:Where it falls apart for me is when they come out with anti-semitism, pro-Nazi, Hitler apologist rubbish and when they start to deny there was a Holocaust at all.
And that's the actual reason for their work when you get right down to it.
Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.
This video puts forward very good arguments. It then falls apart for me at 1:05:37 when a list is given of which number one includes "despite politically correct opinion , Hitler did not start the war.....war was forced on him, firstly by the international Zionists....". The Final Solution was "a mutual signed contract with the Zionists to deport Jews to Madagascar", though that is followed by a claim the Jews wanted lots of war victims to gain Palestine. Those at the camps died of disease and in many cases Jews got more food than local Germans to the camps. Apparently many Jews "had enough of being Jewish". So it goes on. None of that is backed up by anything like the evidence presented earlier in the video. It is just a rant bashing Jews and making out the war was not Hitler's fault and the Nazis were not as bad as the Allies.
You propably mean this video
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany." - David A. Brown, National Chairman, United Jewish Campaign, 1934 (quoted in "I Testify Against The Jews" by Robert Edward Edmondson, page 188 and "The Jewish War of Survival" by Arnold Leese, page 52).

"Hitler will have no war (does not want war), but we will force it on him, not this year, but soon." - Emil Ludwig Cohn in Les Annales, June, 1934 (also quoted in his book "The New Holy Alliance").

"Judea Declares War on Germany!" - Daily Express headline, March 24, 1933.

"Judea Declares War on Germany! Jews of all the World Unite! Boycott of German Goods! Mass Demonstrations!" - These were all headlines in the Daily Express on March 24, 1933.

...we will undermine the Hitler regime and bring the German people to their senses by destroying their export trade on which their very existence depends." - Samuel Undermeyer, in a Radio Broadcast on WABC, New York, August 6, 1933. Reported in the New York Times, August 7, 1933.

...But our Jewish interests demand the complete destruction of Germany. Collectively and individually, the German nation is a threat to us Jews." - Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of the Jewish terrorist group, Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Mascha Rjetsch, January, 1934 (also quoted in "Histoire de l'Armée Allemande" by Jacques Benoist-Mechin, Vol. IV, p. 303).


"The Second World War is being fought for the defense of the fundamentals of Judaism." - Rabbi Felix Mendlesohn, Chicago Sentinel, October 8, 1942.

"It is untrue that I or anyone else in Germany wanted war in 1939. It was wanted and provoked solely by international statesmen either of Jewish origin or working for Jewish interests. Nor had I ever wished that after the appalling first World War, there would ever be a second against either England or America." - Adolf Hitler, Political Testament, April 29, 1945. (written shortly before his suicide)

Only a few examples of evidence which doesn´t exist according to Nessie.

Nessie shoud be sure next time that he know basic information, Nessie doesn´t know the evidence, ok, but this doesn´t mean that evidence don´t exist. Nessie based accusation on false assumption that evidence is not here.

I must repeat my question again since I don´t see any example or evidence, that revisionists say what they say only with reasons mentioned by Nessie or Gawdzilla (because of hate for Jews, to apologize Hitler) - Can you back up your claim, that reason why revisionists say what they say is what Nessie and you mentioned and that they said something what Nessie and you mentioned? Show me some example please.

Nessie or Gawdzilla accused revisionists from serious accustation, so I would like to see their back up arguments.

You both want to tell, that I hate Jews and want bring back Hitler and these are reasons why I say what I say?
Correct link, it is that video I mean.

You said "Only a few examples of evidence which doesn´t exist according to Nessie." which is not true, I have not said that such evidence does not exist.

You say "Nessie shoud be sure next time that he know basic information, Nessie doesn´t know the evidence, ok, but this doesn´t mean that evidence don´t exist. Nessie based accusation on false assumption that evidence is not here." Again not true, all I showed was quotes from the video which proved anti-semitism, pro Nazi, Hitler apologism. I have not said or even suggested evidence does not exist.

You say "I must repeat my question again since I don´t see any example or evidence, that revisionists say what they say" but I have shown you a link to a revisionist beign anti-semitic, pro Nazi and Hitler apologist. You asked for a example, I gave you one.

I do not necesarily think all revisionism is anti-semtic, pro Nazi or Hitler apologism.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:13 pm

I do. I think those who deny being anti-Semitic, pro Nazi and/or Hitler apologists are simply lying.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Bob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:20 pm

Nessie wrote: You said "Only a few examples of evidence which doesn´t exist according to Nessie." which is not true, I have not said that such evidence does not exist.
Nessie again, don´t speak true and deny what he said:
Nessie wrote:"despite politically correct opinion , Hitler did not start the war.....war was forced on him, firstly by the international Zionists...."(...)None of that is backed up by anything like the evidence presented earlier in the video. It is just a rant bashing Jews and making out the war was not Hitler's fault and the Nazis were not as bad as the Allies.
Nessie clearly said, that this is not backed by evidence, but this is of course backed by evidence as I showed in my examples, the only problem is that all of this is not included in video, so Nessie automatically assume that evidence is not here and he accused them, when he is confronted with evidence, he again deny what he said, great approach to debate.

All what was needed to see evidence was just to ask before he made accusation, but he chose to accuse them instead of asking if there is some evidence for these quotes.

P.S. I will not adress other quotes, I showed you at least some examples of evidence which is in fact here to prove that your examples are wrong and your accusation too.
Nessie wrote:You say "Nessie shoud be sure next time that he know basic information, Nessie doesn´t know the evidence, ok, but this doesn´t mean that evidence don´t exist. Nessie based accusation on false assumption that evidence is not here." Again not true, all I showed was quotes from the video which proved anti-semitism, pro Nazi, Hitler apologism. I have not said or even suggested evidence does not exist.
Again, Nessie deny what he said. Nessie just showed some quotes and accused them from anti-semitism or being neo-nazi, Nessie based his accustation on ignorance, because he don´t know evidence, but he didn´t ask, he just chose to accuse. Instead of saying "sorry" he will try to dodge it.
Nessie wrote:You say "I must repeat my question again since I don´t see any example or evidence, that revisionists say what they say" but I have shown you a link to a revisionist beign anti-semitic, pro Nazi and Hitler apologist. You asked for a example, I gave you one.
Nessie provided me with examples which are based on ignorance as i proved only with a few examples, so Nessie didn´t show anything what can be considered as anti semitic or pro nazi to back his accusation of revisionists.
Nessie wrote:I do not necesarily think all revisionism is anti-semtic, pro Nazi or Hitler apologism.
Nessie try to dodge that he accused all revisionists, he didn´t name them, he just say that "(...)Holocaust revisionists(...)when they(...)" , did he name them? No, he speak about them generally and accused them all.

Nessie is able to show names of revisionists which are anti-semitic or neo-nazis and that this is the reason why they say what they say and show me some examples?

Nessie just labeled revisionists like mainstream media and opponents since this is so easy, this ad hominem tactic is usual strategy to substitute lack of arguments. Gawdzilla is worse case, he just accused them all without single peace of evidence to back it up.

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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:15 pm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... t_hoax.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It certainly at least creates the impression of anti-semitic, pro Nazi holocaust denial. Indeed most people would take the people pictured to be anti-semitic, pro Nazi holocaust denialists.
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Re: Is Holocaust Denial a "faith" or "faith-based" system?

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:21 pm

But I agree with the Wikipedia entry regarding Holocaust Denial and in particular the part on anti-semitism

"Holocaust denial and antisemitism

Holocaust denial is generally viewed as antisemitic.[9] The Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, for example, defines Holocaust denial as "a new form of anti-Semitism, but one that hinges on age-old motifs".[171] The Anti-Defamation League has stated that "Holocaust denial is a contemporary form of the classic anti-Semitic doctrine of the evil, manipulative and threatening world Jewish conspiracy"[172] and French historian Valérie Igounet has written that "Holocaust denial is a convenient polemical substitute for anti-semitism."[173] In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now the Fundamental Rights Agency) published a "working definition" of antisemitism which gave as an example of the way that antisemitism might manifest itself, "denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust)".[174]

Some have argued that not all Holocaust deniers are necessarily antisemitic. In a defense of professor of literature and Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson, and of having an essay of his included in the introduction of one of Faurisson's books, linguist and political activist Noam Chomsky stated "I see no antisemitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or even denial of the holocaust".[175] Chomsky would later elaborate:

I was asked whether the fact that a person denies the existence of gas chambers does not prove that he is an anti-Semite. I wrote back what every sane person knows: no, of course it does not. A person might believe that Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews in some other way without being an anti-Semite. Since the point is trivial and disputed by no one, I do not know why we are discussing it. In that context, I made a further point: even denial of the Holocaust would not prove that a person is an anti-Semite. I presume that that point too is not subject to contention. Thus if a person ignorant of modern history were told of the Holocaust and refused to believe that humans are capable of such monstrous acts, we would not conclude that he is an anti-Semite.[176]

Similarly, in a defense of Holocaust denier Bishop Richard Williamson against the charge of being antisemitic, the journalist and writer Kevin Myers argued "It is not anti-Semitic to make a fool of yourself in public about a historical fact. It is anti-Semitic to preach or promote a dislike of Jews because they are Jews, which is what Bishop Williamson has not done."[177]

According to Walter Reich, psychiatrist and then senior scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, one-time director of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and now professor of international affairs at George Washington University:

The primary motivation for most deniers is anti-Semitism, and for them the Holocaust is an infuriatingly inconvenient fact of history. After all, the Holocaust has generally been recognized as one of the most terrible crimes that ever took place, and surely the very emblem of evil in the modern age. If that crime was a direct result of anti-Semitism taken to its logical end, then anti-Semitism itself, even when expressed in private conversation, is inevitably discredited among most people. What better way to rehabilitate anti-Semitism, make anti-Semitic arguments seem once again respectable in civilized discourse and even make it acceptable for governments to pursue anti-Semitic policies than by convincing the world that the great crime for which anti-Semitism was blamed simply never happened—indeed, that it was nothing more than a frame-up invented by the Jews, and propagated by them through their control of the media? What better way, in short, to make the world safe again for anti-Semitism than by denying the Holocaust?[178]

The French historian Pierre Vidal-Naquet described the motivation of deniers more succinctly:

One revives the dead in order the better to strike the living."
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