Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:38 pm

In the thread on eyewitness testimony you said

"I did not claim that all chabers were for clothing, strawman from you."

Which chambers were not used for clothes?

What were they used for?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:53 pm

Nessie wrote:I believe in gassing of humans as there is evidence to suggest that it was done, in some chambers in some camps to some people, but not the millions as some make out.

That is quite a shift as before I came to this forum where I very much had the orthodox view that the Nazis gassed millions in chambers all over their extermination camp system and the victims were 99% Jews.
Good, can you show me this evidence?
Nessie wrote:In the thread on eyewitness testimony you said

"I did not claim that all chabers were for clothing, strawman from you."

Which chambers were not used for clothes?

What were they used for?
First you must name some, for example I already said that Dachau alleged chamber was shower, alleged chamber in Krema II was morgue, alleged chamber i Krema I was morgue, alleged chamber in Krema III was morgue and so on.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:37 am

Be patient Bob, as I have said elsewhere, I need time to read up, collate chamber with discolouration and then there are the chambers where exhaust fumes were used instead.

Of the 'death camps' Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka at the moment I say say Auchwitz-Birkenau and Krema I and II were homicidal ( see the thread on Krema II), possibly Auschwitz I, I have not looked at Belzec, Chelmno and Treblinka II in great detail and probably not Majdanek.

Then there are other reports such as this from Wikipedia "In early 1940, the use of hydrogen cyanide produced as Zyklon B was tested on 250 Roma children from Brno at the Buchenwald concentration camp"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:53 am

Nessie wrote:Be patient Bob, as I have said elsewhere, I need time to read up, collate chamber with discolouration and then there are the chambers where exhaust fumes were used instead.

Exhaust fumes diesel or petrol, steam, vacuum, Zyklon B, chlorine, "black substance", quicklime, electricity, some magic gas with delayed effect, take your pick, why did you choose only exhaust fumes?

Of the 'death camps' Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka at the moment I say say Auchwitz-Birkenau and Krema I and II were homicidal ( see the thread on Krema II), possibly Auschwitz I, I have not looked at Belzec, Chelmno and Treblinka II in great detail and probably not Majdanek.

Krema I in Auschwitz I and Krema II in Birkenau are homicidal. Good, tell me why?
Propably not Majdanek? Tell me why only propably and not definitely?


Then there are other reports such as this from Wikipedia "In early 1940, the use of hydrogen cyanide produced as Zyklon B was tested on 250 Roma children from Brno at the Buchenwald concentration camp"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry, another flaw from wikipedia or from their source, simple lies, no gas chamber or gassing in Buchenwald. This is known long time ago, see this letter.
http://www.codoh.com/incon/inconbroszat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:08 pm

Well we are not going to get any meaning ful infromation on your clothes cleaning claim from Blezec or Sobibor due to the virtual total destruction of those camps.

Regarding "Exhaust fumes diesel or petrol, steam, vacuum, Zyklon B, chlorine, "black substance", quicklime, electricity, some magic gas with delayed effect, take your pick, why did you choose only exhaust fumes?" and again be patient. In any case what have vacuums, chlorine, black substances, quicklime, electricity and magic gas got to do with your claims about cleaning clothes?

I believe that the less residue the more likely the chamber was used for humans and not clothes, hence why I say Birkenau a likely yes and Madjanek a likely no.

The reason why I am not prepared to give you definites is because of witness reports, which you dismiss and I am not prepared to do so. I am trying to base my theory on all evidence (untill proven to be completely bogus) but you are more selective about what you use - hence rejecting witnesses as they contradict your belief no one was gassed.

The Roma children is going way off topic so i will not deal with it further here and should not have raised it.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:28 pm

Nessie wrote:Well we are not going to get any meaning ful infromation on your clothes cleaning claim from Blezec or Sobibor due to the virtual total destruction of those camps.

I did claim something like this? I only said that delousing procedure which was described by witnesses (I gave you link) could be base for lies about homicial gassing.

Regarding "Exhaust fumes diesel or petrol, steam, vacuum, Zyklon B, chlorine, "black substance", quicklime, electricity, some magic gas with delayed effect, take your pick, why did you choose only exhaust fumes?" and again be patient. In any case what have vacuums, chlorine, black substances, quicklime, electricity and magic gas got to do with your claims about cleaning clothes?

You started to speak about exhaust fumes and killing method in Aktion Reinhardt camps, so why do you blame me for this? Jeez.

I believe that the less residue the more likely the chamber was used for humans and not clothes, hence why I say Birkenau a likely yes and Madjanek a likely no.

What is likely? Just say yes or no, where is problem? Is possible to be likely gassed? I don´t think so, your are either gassed or not gassed. So say Yes or No and not likely or maybe.

The reason why I am not prepared to give you definites is because of witness reports, which you dismiss and I am not prepared to do so. I am trying to base my theory on all evidence (untill proven to be completely bogus) but you are more selective about what you use - hence rejecting witnesses as they contradict your belief no one was gassed.

Interesting, for you is testimony more valuable than physical evidence. No strawman again, I rejected testimonies after examination and not because of some belief, these claims from you are dishonest. Your lie about selective testimonies is also dishonest as well, I have no problem to examine all testimonies. Prove me here where I selectively and without examination picked some testimony to prove my "belief". Let me guess, you dodge this as you dodged almost everything else..

The Roma children is going way off topic so i will not deal with it further here and should not have raised it.

You always backpedal from all of these false claims, but you have no problem to bring another one after some time. Maybe you should stop to post these lies here until you check sources and all information.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:23 pm

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:Well we are not going to get any meaning ful infromation on your clothes cleaning claim from Blezec or Sobibor due to the virtual total destruction of those camps.

I did claim something like this? I only said that delousing procedure which was described by witnesses (I gave you link) could be base for lies about homicial gassing.

I never siad you claimed something like this. I agree now that the presence of gas chambers in many camps that were used for cleaning of clothes have been mis-represented as homicidal and could well be the basis for the homicidal claims. You have made a very good case.


Regarding "Exhaust fumes diesel or petrol, steam, vacuum, Zyklon B, chlorine, "black substance", quicklime, electricity, some magic gas with delayed effect, take your pick, why did you choose only exhaust fumes?" and again be patient. In any case what have vacuums, chlorine, black substances, quicklime, electricity and magic gas got to do with your claims about cleaning clothes?

You started to speak about exhaust fumes and killing method in Aktion Reinhardt camps, so why do you blame me for this? Jeez.

I am not blaming you for anything. You are coming over as so battle hardened to abusive threads and possible abuse elsewhere to for being a revisionist that you are too quick to perceived insults from me.


I believe that the less residue the more likely the chamber was used for humans and not clothes, hence why I say Birkenau a likely yes and Madjanek a likely no.

What is likely? Just say yes or no, where is problem? Is possible to be likely gassed? I don´t think so, your are either gassed or not gassed. So say Yes or No and not likely or maybe.

Where is the problem? Well it is in the evidence from both sides that cannot make a wholly convincing case either way. So the best you will get out me at the moment is likely and maybe.

The reason why I am not prepared to give you definites is because of witness reports, which you dismiss and I am not prepared to do so. I am trying to base my theory on all evidence (untill proven to be completely bogus) but you are more selective about what you use - hence rejecting witnesses as they contradict your belief no one was gassed.

Interesting, for you is testimony more valuable than physical evidence. No strawman again, I rejected testimonies after examination and not because of some belief, these claims from you are dishonest. Your lie about selective testimonies is also dishonest as well, I have no problem to examine all testimonies. Prove me here where I selectively and without examination picked some testimony to prove my "belief". Let me guess, you dodge this as you dodged almost everything else..

No I give testimony an equal weight with physical evidence. If one contradicts the other I do not necesarily right off the other, I look for potential reasons for the contradiction first.

I was very much under the impression that you do not believe any testimony that states people were gassed in homicidal chambers. Is that correct or not?


The Roma children is going way off topic so i will not deal with it further here and should not have raised it.

You always backpedal from all of these false claims, but you have no problem to bring another one after some time. Maybe you should stop to post these lies here until you check sources and all information.
Sorry, but just because you believe something is false does not mean I should as well. I back peddal to keep on topic.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:04 pm

Nessie wrote:I am not blaming you for anything. You are coming over as so battle hardened to abusive threads and possible abuse elsewhere to for being a revisionist that you are too quick to perceived insults from me.


So why did you ask me what these killing methods got to do with your claims about cleaning clothes when you were the one who started this? You started with this, so why do you ask me? Ask yourself. No, you are wrong.

Where is the problem? Well it is in the evidence from both sides that cannot make a wholly convincing case either way. So the best you will get out me at the moment is likely and maybe.

Your maybe or likely is absolutely useless answer. But of ocurse, I cannot force you to make clear statements. We can propably end our discussion, I really don´t enjoy your maybe, this leads nowhere.

The reason why I am not prepared to give you definites is because of witness reports, which you dismiss and I am not prepared to do so. I am trying to base my theory on all evidence (untill proven to be completely bogus) but you are more selective about what you use - hence rejecting witnesses as they contradict your belief no one was gassed.

No I give testimony an equal weight with physical evidence. If one contradicts the other I do not necesarily right off the other, I look for potential reasons for the contradiction first.

Nice point, one of the most ridiculous which I have ever seen, testimony = physical evidence, fantastic.

I was very much under the impression that you do not believe any testimony that states people were gassed in homicidal chambers. Is that correct or not?


I don´t believe any testimony which I have seen and examined, so yes, not even one testimony worth believing so far, every is false so far. Problem is that you try to make an impression that I dismiss every testimony without examination, which is not simply true.

The Roma children is going way off topic so i will not deal with it further here and should not have raised it.

You always backpedal from all of these false claims, but you have no problem to bring another one after some time. Maybe you should stop to post these lies here until you check sources and all information.

Sorry, but just because you believe something is false does not mean I should as well. I back peddal to keep on topic.

Again false claim from you, I gave you letter from Martin Broszat and not from me, this letter clearly state that no gassing in Buchenwald, try to search more, good luck if you find something about that Buchenwald was gassing site, all claims about gassing were refuted long time ago even by orthodox historians, you can also find "eyewitness" to gassing in Buchenwald which never happened.
Keep on topic, interesting, I don´t understand why you still jump to other topics.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:28 pm

Truth is the first casualty of war and your view is far more black and white than mine, which is more shades of grey. I really dislike the way you present your case as you have a very unfortunate turn of phrase, especially if I say something you disagree with or get wrong I am a liar. Wrong.

It may please you to know that I am now very suspicious of the orthodox/believer side of what happened during the Holocaust and I now think that much of what I had been lead to believe is a load of crap and cannot be evidenced properly. I am also very impressed by the revisionist/denier side of the debate and even more angry than before that Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries.

However, the best you will ever get out of me is that at Majdanek it is far more likely than not none of the chambers were used to kill humans. The main reason for that is because of the Soviets and the more I have read about their activities the more they cannot be trusted with evidence. So Majdanek is tainted and I would dismiss it as being too unreliable to make a definite judgement.

I do accept that what are considered by the believer side to be gas chambers at Birkenau and that you say are morgues are not for cleaning clothes.

As for the rest, if there is blue staining and it cannot be secured from people getting out, then it is for clothes. But there is a caveat to that as it is clear from the likes of Auschwitz I that buildings were altered during the war, after the war and there is dispute where 'reconstructions' have been made that they are accurate.

Any reputed gas chamber at any of the camps which have been destroyed are not testable and so I think that the Nazis have to a large extent, even if all gas chambers only ever cleaned clothes, caused their own problem. You have commented why should a photo have been taken of clothes in a gas chamber? Well now you know. Lots of photos, lots of gas chambers full of rails and racks, with no chance of anyone being locked inside and a full set of records would have made alleged homicidal gas chambers an outsider's fantasy where it could have been illegal to say that the Nazis gassed anyone.

Instead it is the other way around. Stupid Nazis!
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:53 pm

Nessie wrote:Truth is the first casualty of war and your view is far more black and white than mine, which is more shades of grey. I really dislike the way you present your case as you have a very unfortunate turn of phrase, especially if I say something you disagree with or get wrong I am a liar. Wrong.

When I say this, I always prove why I said this, if you don´t like it, sorry, then don´t tell lies and etc. My view is backed up, I always state why I have some opinion. You can refute my view, I challenged you several times.

It may please you to know that I am now very suspicious of the orthodox/believer side of what happened during the Holocaust and I now think that much of what I had been lead to believe is a load of crap and cannot be evidenced properly. I am also very impressed by the revisionist/denier side of the debate and even more angry than before that Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries.

However, the best you will ever get out of me is that at Majdanek it is far more likely than not none of the chambers were used to kill humans. The main reason for that is because of the Soviets and the more I have read about their activities the more they cannot be trusted with evidence. So Majdanek is tainted and I would dismiss it as being too unreliable to make a definite judgement.

"Likely", hm.

I do accept that what are considered by the believer side to be gas chambers at Birkenau and that you say are morgues are not for cleaning clothes.

Yes, because I never said that morgue was delousing chamber, only that in one period this morgue was planned as emergency delousing chamber.


As for the rest, if there is blue staining and it cannot be secured from people getting out, then it is for clothes. But there is a caveat to that as it is clear from the likes of Auschwitz I that buildings were altered during the war, after the war and there is dispute where 'reconstructions' have been made that they are accurate.

Building were altered, this is known but not loudly expressed, but I missed your point.

Any reputed gas chamber at any of the camps which have been destroyed are not testable and so I think that the Nazis have to a large extent, even if all gas chambers only ever cleaned clothes, caused their own problem. You have commented why should a photo have been taken of clothes in a gas chamber? Well now you know. Lots of photos, lots of gas chambers full of rails and racks, with no chance of anyone being locked inside and a full set of records would have made alleged homicidal gas chambers an outsider's fantasy where it could have been illegal to say that the Nazis gassed anyone.

Lot of alleged homicidal gas chambers survived and not have been destroyed and are testable. Still see no reason why to take photo of clothing inside of gas chamber.

Instead it is the other way around. Stupid Nazis!

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:27 pm

If the Nazis had run the camps in the way you suggest, with great emphasis on disease prevention and hygiene especially against typhus, they would have been better served by making it clear by means of photos, records and a better success rate against typhus.

Instead they left themselves wide open to accusations of the homicidal use of Zyklon B and failed miserably at preventing typhus.

http://www.whale.to/b/typhus_h.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you consider that and the outspoken desire of Hitler and other senior Nazis to annihilate, destroy and exterminate the Jews, it is no wonder denier/revisionsist have a hard time convincing anyone that the gas chambers were an entirely innocent part of the camp system.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:55 pm

Nessie wrote:If the Nazis had run the camps in the way you suggest, with great emphasis on disease prevention and hygiene especially against typhus, they would have been better served by making it clear by means of photos, records and a better success rate against typhus.

By means of photos for who? They were successful in fight against typhus. Typhus was horrible but without thier effort the situation would be catastrophe, they lowered significantly typhus deaths, please learn more about it, I am already exhausted to provide you basic information

Instead they left themselves wide open to accusations of the homicidal use of Zyklon B and failed miserably at preventing typhus.

http://www.whale.to/b/typhus_h.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Failed miserably? You must learn a lot. Nobody ever took seriously some accusations about gassings without a single proof. There were tons of false propaganda claims, so why to bother with just another false claims without proofs?

When you consider that and the outspoken desire of Hitler and other senior Nazis to annihilate, destroy and exterminate the Jews, it is no wonder denier/revisionsist have a hard time convincing anyone that the gas chambers were an entirely innocent part of the camp system.

Another jump. How do you know that Hitler and senior Nazis wanted to physically annihilate Jews? Where is your evidence?

Your logic is also extraordinary again, they allegedly spoke freely and publicly about physical annihilation of Jews which was the top secret Reich operation? Oh, Jeez...

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:38 pm

Please evidence your claim that Nazi hygiene actions at the camps "lowered significantly typhus deaths"

Please evidence your claim "They were successful in fight against typhus"

Regarding "Another jump. How do you know that Hitler and senior Nazis wanted to physically annihilate Jews? Where is your evidence?"

From Hitler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... ust_denial" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Critics of Holocaust denial assert that there is much material which shows that it is unreasonable to claim that the absence of a written order means there was no policy of genocide. These include sources which reveal Hitler's desire to eradicate Jewry, and that the order to do this when he attained power did indeed originate from him.[6]

In a letter dated 1919 Hitler mentions that part of the ultimate aim of a strong national government must "unshakably be the removal of the Jews".[7][8]

In 1922 Hitler told Major Josef Hell (a journalist at the time):

Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows—at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example—as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.[9]

On 21 January 1939 Hitler spoke with František Chvalkovský and said:

We are going to destroy the Jews. They are not going to get away with what they did on 9 November 1918. The day of reckoning has come.[10]

On 30 January at the Sports Palace in Berlin, Hitler told the crowd:

And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.[11]

In Mein Kampf, Hitler argued that a war against Jews would have saved Germany from losing World War I:[12]

If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.[13]

In the following widely cited speech made on January 30, 1939, Hitler says to the Reichstag:

Today I want to be a prophet once more: if international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe![14][15]

Hitler's choice of language in German in the final phrase of this passage is "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa" - unambiguously meaning "the extermination [or annihilation] of the Jewish race in Europe."
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:04 pm

Nessie wrote:Please evidence your claim that Nazi hygiene actions at the camps "lowered significantly typhus deaths"

Please evidence your claim "They were successful in fight against typhus"
In the second half of 1943 sanitary conditions improved noticeably. By autumn
of that year, every barrack had faucets as well as stone wash basins.

Zofia Murawska, “Warunki egzystencji wiezniów. Warunki sanitarne”, in: T. Mencel, Majdanek
1941-1944, Lublin: Wydawnictwo Lubelskie, 1991, pp. 134-140.
Report of SS-Obergruppenführer and WVHA Chief Oswald Pohl September 30, 1943, to Heinrich Himmler

the mortality rate in the camps had successfully been reduced from 10%(!) in December 1942 to 2.09% in August 1943.

PS-1469.
Feel free to read whole article here
http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/4.html#ftnref144" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Regarding "Another jump. How do you know that Hitler and senior Nazis wanted to physically annihilate Jews? Where is your evidence?"

From Hitler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... ust_denial" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nice Nessie, did you ever saw original text or you only repeat wiki? Did you ever see whole context or only these selective passages? Try it again, don´t forget, I wanted evidence for intention to "physically annihilate Jews" Supply me with this evidence, I will wait.

This is best what you have? I thought you will supply me with gas chambers, with mass graves.

Then tell me how was possible that top nazi freely babbled about operation to physically exterminate Jews 20 years before, I am looking forward to see your extraordinary logical explanation.


Hitler's choice of language in German in the final phrase of this passage is "die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa" - unambiguously meaning "the extermination [or annihilation] of the Jewish race in Europe."

Great, so here is already quoted article from Dr. Franz J.Scheidl
"DER MORGENTHAUPLAN ZUR VERNICHTUNG DEUTSCHLANDS"
http://www.vho.org/D/gdvd_6/2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to your logic, Morgenthau wanted to exterminate whole Germany!! Horrible, did we miss this German holocaust?

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:56 pm

So that is some success in the fight against typhus, but that was certainly not the case towards the end of the war and you clearly said they were successful. You need to do more to evidence clear success.

Are you claiming the wikipedia quotes of Hitler are inaccurate or out of context? If so evidence that please.

Regarding "DER MORGENTHAUPLAN ZUR VERNICHTUNG DEUTSCHLANDS", so others wanted to destroy Germany as the Nazis wanted to destroy the Jews. Certainly Hitler believed the Jews were out to destroy Germany and he went out to annihilate them. But one thing you did not get was a Jewish army marching towards Berlin along with the other Allies, who were also interested in the destruction/annihilation of the Nazis.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:40 pm

Nessie wrote:So that is some success in the fight against typhus, but that was certainly not the case towards the end of the war and you clearly said they were successful. You need to do more to evidence clear success.
This is not some succsess, but great success. I am not going to quote whole references for you, do you own research, you know where to search so start I haven´t time to quote everything.
Nessie wrote:hat was certainly not the case towards the end of the war and you clearly said they were successful.
Nessie, this is too much, why another lie? Where i claimed that they were succsesscul against typhus toward the end of the war? In fact, i wrote total opposite, see "but toward the end of the war with collapse of Germany infrastructure, bombing of crucial points there were terrible edpidemies and conditions" (Jan 18, 2012 10:24 pm) Jeez Nessie, 10 days ago!
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 88#p268104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nessie wrote:Are you claiming the wikipedia quotes of Hitler are inaccurate or out of context? If so evidence that please.
I did not claim anything, i only asked you if you saw originat text or if you saw whole context, why did you twist that I "claims something"? So did you see it? Yes or NO?

Here is example.
Hitler´s speech of January 30, 1939:
“I shall again make myself a prophet today: If the international Jewish
financiers, inside or outside of Europe, were to be able to push the peoples
once more into a world war, the result will not be the bolshevization of the
Earth and, hence, the victory of Judaism, but the annihilation of the Jewish
race in Europe.”


No one among those brave extrapolators ever quotes the lines that follow
and that clearly explain the terms of this threat:

“[…] for the time in which the non-Jewish peoples were defenseless in
the face of propaganda is coming to an end. National Socialist Germany
and fascist Italy possess the institutions which will allow, if necessary, to
explain to the world the essence of a question, of which many people are
instinctively aware, but which is still unclear to them in scientific terms.”


Thus, the “annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe” consisted simply in
showing the other peoples those German and fascist institutions, which spread
the “scientific knowledge” about the “Jewish question.”

Max Domarus, Hitler Reden und Proklamationen 1932-1945, R. Löwit, Wiesbaden 1973,
vol II, second part, p. 1058: “sondern die Vernichtung der jüdischen Rasse in Europa.”

from Carlo Mattogno, Germar Rudolf book
Of course, you need to see aother speeches as well, I showed you direction, so no problem to you read books about it.
Nessie wrote:Regarding "DER MORGENTHAUPLAN ZUR VERNICHTUNG DEUTSCHLANDS", so others wanted to destroy Germany as the Nazis wanted to destroy the Jews. Certainly Hitler believed the Jews were out to destroy Germany and he went out to annihilate them. But one thing you did not get was a Jewish army marching towards Berlin along with the other Allies, who were also interested in the destruction/annihilation of the Nazis.
You are wrong again, we did not heard about German holocaust or did we? So Morgenthau clearly didn´t want to physically exterminate Germany even when he has some plan, so what happened? Propably that this "extermination" wasn´t meant as murder, logical? So where do you see that Hitler wanted to physically exterminated them, where is your evidence?

Again wrong Nessie, believe it or not, but Germans had reason why to consider Jews as an enemies which need to be closed in camps or moved away, see.

Economic war declared to destroy Germany in 1933
http://www.biblestudysite.com/judeawar.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"This declaration called the war against Germany, which was now determined on, a 'holy war'. This war was to be carried out against Germany to its conclusion, to her destruction" (Diese Erklärung nannte den Krieg gegen Deutschland, der nun beschlossen sei, einen heiligen Krieg. Dieser Krieg müsse gegen Deutschland bis zu dessen Ende, bis zu dessen Vernichtung, geführt werden)."

Dr. Franz J. Scheidl, Geschichte der Verfemung Deutschlands.
"We Jews are going to bring a war on Germany."

David A. Brown, National Chairman, United Jewish Campaign, 1934 (quoted in "I Testify Against The Jews" by Robert Edward Edmondson, page 188 and "The Jewish War of Survival" by Arnold Leese, page 52).
"For months now the struggle against Germany is waged by each Jewish community, at each conference, in all our syndicates, and by each Jew all over the world. There is reason to believe that our part in this struggle has general value. We will trigger a spiritual and material war of all the world against Germany's ambitions to become once again a great nation, to recover lost territories and colonies. But our Jewish interests demand the complete destruction of Germany. Collectively and individually, the German nation is a threat to us Jews."

Vladimir Jabotinsky (founder of the Jewish terrorist group, Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Mascha Rjetsch, January, 1934 (also quoted in "Histoire de l'Armée Allemande" by Jacques Benoist-Mechin, Vol. IV, p. 303).
Even worse situation than with Japanese which were closed in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor in USA, is clear why they wanted to get rid of Jews, but not physically since I still wait for your proof that they wanted to physically annihilate them.

I don´t say that I agree with this politics, i only see why they wanted to get rid of them (not physically) and why they "hated" them to make hate speeches, not because of popular reasons as brainwashed media try to tell me, but for these threats even long years ago before the war began and before the persecution of Jews started. I showed you only a few examples, you can do more research on your own.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:08 pm

Come on Bob! Regarding what you said there about typhus and pointing out that you said something which contradicts something else you said in the past is not a lie. You have now clarified that you mean up to but not incuding the end of the war. Good.

I then go on to ask for clarification again about what Hitler said. You are desparate for yes and no answers, but will only get them if I believe I have fully understood you and the answer is indeed a simple yes or no.

I shall read up on the various interpretations about what Hitler and other Nazis said about the Jews. I am well aware the believer side goes with annihilate means death, whereas the revisionists say it did not. I am also well aware that the Jews were blamed by Hitler for much of pre War Germany's woes.

For me the proof of physical annihilation comes with the death camps and disappearence of many Jews into those camps, as being dealt with in the thread about Treblinka II.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:21 pm

Nessie wrote:Come on Bob! Regarding what you said there about typhus and pointing out that you said something which contradicts something else you said in the past is not a lie. You have now clarified that you mean up to but not incuding the end of the war. Good.

No Nessie, you simply lied, I said this "They were successful in fight against typhus." So where do you see something about period of time? How can you claim that I was speaking about "toward the end of war"? Where do you see anything about period of time? You simply invented it.

I then go on to ask for clarification again about what Hitler said. You are desparate for yes and no answers, but will only get them if I believe I have fully understood you and the answer is indeed a simple yes or no.

You simply want to dodge to make clear statement. I have no problem to make clear statement, and later I can change it becuase of new evidence. You have no problem to present claims about extemrination without "maybe" so why do you have problem with saying Yes or No? You claimed, that Nazi offciials wanted to physically annihilate Jews, i did not see "maybe" from you, but when I want evidence for it, you cannot present anything.

I shall read up on the various interpretations about what Hitler and other Nazis said about the Jews. I am well aware the believer side goes with annihilate means death, whereas the revisionists say it did not. I am also well aware that the Jews were blamed by Hitler for much of pre War Germany's woes.

For me the proof of physical annihilation comes with the death camps and disappearence of many Jews into those camps, as being dealt with in the thread about Treblinka II.

So you "backpedaled" to your previous evidence, ok, feel free to show me evience for your "death" (extemination?) camps. And you again want to start that missing peoples prove murder or extermination? Jeeeez Nessie, not again : )

Why Treblinka II, why you don´t solve Auschwitz? The best documented place with the biggest death toll and with still existing material evidence? Why Treblinka II? You want to cover your false evidence with lack of documents and physical evidence about Treblinka II?

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:19 pm

Clarification time again. I am going to have to ensure absolute clarification that I am sure what you are talking about before I am going to be able to progress this and all other discussions

What exactly do you mean by "They were successful in fight against typhus."? Please give me a detailed reply showing what levels of typhus reduction and over what time period (if any) counts as a success.

"....ok, feel free to show me evience for your "death" (extemination?) camps...."

Death camps - google it and this is what you get

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=death+ ... =firefox-a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a common term for Action Reinhard camps, but also used for other Nazi camps as well.


"And you again want to start that missing peoples prove murder or extermination? Jeeeez Nessie, not again : )"

How many times are going to ignore my explanation about that?

"Why Treblinka II, why you don´t solve Auschwitz? The best documented place with the biggest death toll and with still existing material evidence? Why Treblinka II? You want to cover your false evidence with lack of documents and physical evidence about Treblinka II?"

The reason why I picked on Treblinka II was because of a debate between Bob and Matthew. Why the strawman attack?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:40 pm

Nessie wrote:Clarification time again. I am going to have to ensure absolute clarification that I am sure what you are talking about before I am going to be able to progress this and all other discussions

What exactly do you mean by "They were successful in fight against typhus."? Please give me a detailed reply showing what levels of typhus reduction and over what time period (if any) counts as a success.
I already provided you with example when did they achieved successful fight. And I already provided you with statement, that toward end of the war, there were epidemics and horrible conditions, I already gave you reasons why = no successful fight against typhus toward the end, reasons were posted.
Nessie wrote:"....ok, feel free to show me evience for your "death" (extemination?) camps...."

Death camps - google it and this is what you get

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=death+ ... =firefox-a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a common term for Action Reinhard camps, but also used for other Nazi camps as well.
Hm, I know these camps, but I wanted to show evidence that they were death camps, extermination camps, give me this evidence.

Nessie wrote:"And you again want to start that missing peoples prove murder or extermination? Jeeeez Nessie, not again : )"

How many times are going to ignore my explanation about that?
Propably every time when you repeat this nonsense again. You made explanation but you still post this nonsense anyway.
Nessie wrote:"Why Treblinka II, why you don´t solve Auschwitz? The best documented place with the biggest death toll and with still existing material evidence? Why Treblinka II? You want to cover your false evidence with lack of documents and physical evidence about Treblinka II?"

The reason why I picked on Treblinka II was because of a debate between Bob and Matthew. Why the strawman attack?
What strawman? You admited self that you "picked on Treblinka II", so no strawman. The rest is only question, not statement, so no strawman, I made question and wanted to hear clarification why did you picked Treblinka II and for what reason, that´s all, better luck next time with revealing "strawmans" from me.

Ok, Matthew failed to show me evidence, try this instead of him, no problem. If I remeber it correctly, he produced Hofle telegram, Zabecki´s testimony and alleged train records, Kurt Franz confession and Lukaszkiewicz investigation. You can post your evidence to my thread. You can begin with mass graves or with murder weapon which they used, you can show me legendary gas chambers or steam chambers, or vacuumchambers and other weapons of destruction, for sure you have some replica or plan or expert report about them...these are only my suggestions how to prove me that TII was extermination camp. I am looking forward to see some evidence.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:06 am

I remember when you want to to see clothing of prisoners, here you can see again that prisoners in stripped uniforms have thick layer of clothing under stripped uniforms, they have also scarves around neck, you can also notice how clean their cloths are, because of? Because of delousing and cleaning of cloths.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... emaii2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I recommend you to buy whole Auschwitz Album with photos from Auschwitz, lot of interesting photos, but with ridiculous captions. This is only one of many similar photos which don´t show anything what "survivors" usually describe.

You can see it here, first look on photo and then on the ridiculous caption, enjoy.
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... ntent1.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you see dogs? Do you see terror? Do you see dead bodies dragged out of wagons? Do you see horrible scenes? Do you see violence? Do you see whips? Do you see guns?

Do you see something which signalize that almost all of these peoples are going to be gassed in gas chamber in crematorium which is visible in distance?

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:39 am

I already provided you with example when did they achieved successful fight. And I already provided you with statement, that toward end of the war, there were epidemics and horrible conditions, I already gave you reasons why = no successful fight against typhus toward the end, reasons were posted.

So there were failures as well an example of a success good now you have clarified your original statment. Of course one success which cannot be directly linked to cleaning of clothes is pretty pathetic evidencing.

Hm, I know these camps, but I wanted to show evidence that they were death camps, extermination camps, give me this evidence.


You asked what a death camp was, I have now shown you what is commonly called a death camp. Asking me to now to sit for hours/days compiling evidence is way off topic here.

Propably every time when you repeat this nonsense again. You made explanation but you still post this nonsense anyway.


It is a very good example of you dodging an issue and creating a strawman out of what I really said.

What strawman? You admited self that you "picked on Treblinka II", so no strawman. The rest is only question, not statement, so no strawman, I made question and wanted to hear clarification why did you picked Treblinka II and for what reason, that´s all, better luck next time with revealing "strawmans" from me.

You need to read the thread on Treblinka II to understand why your attack is a strawman. The thread is me asking for proof Treblinka II was a tranist camp. What has any of your question "why you don´t solve Auschwitz? The best documented place with the biggest death toll and with still existing material evidence? Why Treblinka II? You want to cover your false evidence with lack of documents and physical evidence about Treblinka II?" got to do with me asking for evidence it was a transit camp?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:52 am

Bob wrote:I remember when you want to to see clothing of prisoners, here you can see again that prisoners in stripped uniforms have thick layer of clothing under stripped uniforms, they have also scarves around neck, you can also notice how clean their cloths are, because of? Because of delousing and cleaning of cloths.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... emaii2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I recommend you to buy whole Auschwitz Album with photos from Auschwitz, lot of interesting photos, but with ridiculous captions. This is only one of many similar photos which don´t show anything what "survivors" usually describe.

You can see it here, first look on photo and then on the ridiculous caption, enjoy.
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... ntent1.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you see dogs? Do you see terror? Do you see dead bodies dragged out of wagons? Do you see horrible scenes? Do you see violence? Do you see whips? Do you see guns?

Do you see something which signalize that almost all of these peoples are going to be gassed in gas chamber in crematorium which is visible in distance?
This thread was about gas chambers for cleaning clothes. You have shown me a lot of evidence that shows that many were used to clean clothes and that there was a huge operation of clothes cleaning by the Nazis, I accept that point. Look here are more clothes and shoes as well at Auschwitz

http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/I/B/auschwitz42.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now my knowledge is better I think this is a dead issue. In Auschwitz you say no homicidal gas chamber, so that makes any further debate a moot point. Majdanek is a stalemate due to the Soviets and their tampering with evidence. The camps that have been destroyed we cannot say.

We have three threads on the go and they drift about so cleaning clothes can be dropped.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:45 pm

Nessie wrote: So there were failures as well an example of a success good now you have clarified your original statment. Of course one success which cannot be directly linked to cleaning of clothes is pretty pathetic evidencing.
I did not clarified my original statements, i only repeat them, they were already here and clear. Failures, but not because of Germans. One success, hm, I already said that that i can´t quote all reference, I don´t have enough time, do your own research too. Of course this is linked with cleaning of clothes.
linked to cleaning of clothes is pretty pathetic evidencing.
Yep Nessie, tell me more about your "polite" attitude.
Nessie wrote:Hm, I know these camps, but I wanted to show evidence that they were death camps, extermination camps, give me this evidence.


You asked what a death camp was, I have now shown you what is commonly called a death camp. Asking me to now to sit for hours/days compiling evidence is way off topic here.
Nessie, I will expose your another lie again, because i clearly stated this "feel free to show me evience for your "death" (extemination?) camps."(Jan 28, 2012 5:21 pm) So where do you see that I wanted to see what is usually called a death camp? Do you think that I don´t know what is death camp? I clearly wanted to see evidence for these death camps, evidence why these camps are death camps. Yes Nessie, again, you lied about what i said.

Off topic? So why did you brought up these death camps? You began with them and when asked for evidence which you can post to another thread of course, you try to dodge with "off topic" Very polite.
Nessie wrote:Propably every time when you repeat this nonsense again. You made explanation but you still post this nonsense anyway.


It is a very good example of you dodging an issue and creating a strawman out of what I really said.
No.
Nessie wrote:What strawman? You admited self that you "picked on Treblinka II", so no strawman. The rest is only question, not statement, so no strawman, I made question and wanted to hear clarification why did you picked Treblinka II and for what reason, that´s all, better luck next time with revealing "strawmans" from me.

You need to read the thread on Treblinka II to understand why your attack is a strawman. The thread is me asking for proof Treblinka II was a tranist camp. What has any of your question "why you don´t solve Auschwitz? The best documented place with the biggest death toll and with still existing material evidence? Why Treblinka II? You want to cover your false evidence with lack of documents and physical evidence about Treblinka II?" got to do with me asking for evidence it was a transit camp?
I know this thread, I started this thread, don´t forget you wrote "The reason why I picked on Treblinka II was because of a debate between Bob and Matthew." so i know this thread very well.

What your thread about transit camp have to do with this issue? You said, that you picked up TII because of my discussion with Matthew about proving TII as extermination camp in my thread here
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your thread is about proving transit camp, so your thread is clearly not about proofs that Treblinka II is extermiantion camp, this issue was discussed in my thread and not in yours.

So my question about Treblinka II is still unanswered, why did you picked up this place instead of best documented place, Auschwitz, this isn´t logical. I can imagine only one reason, same reason as has Romanov and his team, because this place is well documented, too much physical evidence (gas chambers) to prove holocaust story wrong so is better do dodge it, for believers is better to choose place where revisionist can´t prove where are all peoples since lack of documents. Believers also ignore, that revisionist can prove that gassing is false and that not even one mass grave was ever found and still repeat that nonsense "where are those peoplse if not murdered in Treblinka II?" and this is their best "argument" since nobody is able to tell where they all are since documents are missing or closed in archives. Revisionists did they best to prove what they could using "every" possible documental evidence, believers even didn´t care to search for peoples and according to them, they are all gassed, they also ignore evidence that lot of peoples were transited and found in the East. This is only reason why believers pick up Treblinka since lack of evidence for missing peoples, so they can scream "revisionists don´t know where are those hundreds of thousands of peoples, so we believers are coorrect and revisionist are wrong"

If I am wrong in my assumption, tell me true reason why you picked up Treblinka II instead of place which can easily prove if the holocast is true or lie, because without Auschwitz, no Treblinka dear Nessie, holocaust is like domino, Auschwitz is the first piece.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:34 am

An interesting point has been raised in the thread about graves at Chelmno and how gas chambers were altered over time.

I am also taken by this level of evidence that Bob wants to have a position evidenced/proved

"BUT, if you provide me with points adopted from previously mentioned examples, I will accept them, see:

-third party observers of non-Soviet/communist origin
-third party observers from international organisation/s
-exhumations and excavations of mass graves
-physicians which performed investigation
-media which documented it
-photos and films of investigation
-documented and investigated human remains
-findings of this investigation were made public together with backu-up materials.

Provide this for Soviet/communist investigations mentiond above, and I accept them, fair? I hope so"

So if we apply what is applicable from the the same standard to gas chambers being used exclusively for clothes to prove such happened I need

- forensic examinations of gas chambers to show no human remains
- details of qualified persons who have performed such
- media documenting this
- phots and films of investigations
- documented and investigated remaining clothing
- finding made public with back up material.

So I need to be shown how gas chambers used for clothes were during the war, not now and full evidence as above or there is no proof such chambers were only used for clothes and the revisionists/deniers have a big gap in ther claims.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:06 pm

In the thread on Chelmno graves there is this exchange (Post #56)

Roberto's post included this quote

"January 29, 1943,

“Crematorium II has been completed, except for minor details, by using all available manpower, in spite of extreme difficulties and severe frost and by running day and night shifts. The ovens were fired up in the presence of senior engineer Prüfer of the contracting firm, Messrs. Topf & Söhne of Erfurt, and function perfectly. The planking of the reinforced concrete ceiling of the corpse cellar could not yet be stripped because of the effect of frost. This is, however, of no importance, because the gassing cellar can be used for this instead.

On account of freight restrictions, Topf & Söhne have as yet been unable to supply in time the aeration and de-aeration system as requested by Zentralbauleitung. On arrival of the aeration and deaeration equipment installation will proceed immediately, and it is expected that the unit will be ready for operation on February 20, 1943. A report by the test engineer of Messrs. Topf & Söhne, Erfurt, is attached.”

APMO, BW 30/34, p. 100."

Bob's reply said


"Where do you see that alleged homicidal gas chamber on your pictures is the one "gassing cellar" mentioned in this document? Not even L1 or L2 is mentioned.

If I assume that this term belongs to Leichenkeller 1 then pardon, but according to this document, the function of Leichenkeller 2 (alleged undressing room aka morgue) could be subsituted by Leichenkeller 1 (alleged homicidal gas chamber aka vergassungskeller/morgue) because L2 wasn´t completed, so in the case that gassing story is correct, how was possible to use alleged homicidal gas chamber for both purposes and even in time (January 1943) when no gassing took place according to histography (first gassing took place allegedly on 14/15 March 1943 Danuta Czech/Henryk Tauber)?

How was possible to gas someone when this document clearly state that alleged homicidal gas chamber could be used for purpose of "corpse cellar" instead of L2, in the other words, for storing bodies of deceased prisoners?

And finally how was possible to undress and gas peoples in alleged gas chamber when Topf und Sohne did not deliver aeration and de-aeration equipment for alleged gas chamber as stated in document?"

So does that mean they had a chamber for cleaning clothes at Krema II ? :?
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