Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

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Nessie
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Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:48 pm

Prove to me that the Gas chambers, whether at Auchwitz Birkenau, Sachsenhausen, Treblinka and Majdanek were only used to delouse clothes.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:17 pm

Nessie, eh...delousing chambers were really used to delouse clothing. Nobody from historians ever claimed that poeples were gassed in delousing chambers in Birkenau, gassings sites are in Krematoria I-V, in Bunker 1 and 2 and in basement in Block 11.

Delousing chambers are clearly captioned as "Gaskammer" in plans of Central contruction office in Auschwitz, their doors are clearly captioned with skull and with warning because of danger from poison.

Sorry, this thread can be deleted: )

Sachsenhausen chamber don´t exit anymore, it was demolished after war, this small chamber isn´t even mentioned by historians as other small gassing sites since it is too ridiculous.

Majdanek is more complicated, since you don´t know even basics as I see, i am afraid that here will be problem to understand all infromation since you don´t know even basic things.

Treblinka and AR camps according to my knowledge, several witnessess spoke about delousing procedures which could serve as basis to turn them to homicidal chambers in later time.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:52 pm

That is not proof. Prove to me that this chamber at Majdanek used to delouse clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Majda ... Gazowa.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Show me proof of one item of clothing that is in a gazkammer.

Show me proof of clothing being prepared for delousing in a gazkammer
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:27 pm

Nessie wrote:That is not proof. Prove to me that this chamber at Majdanek used to delouse clothes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Majda ... Gazowa.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course, this is not proof because I even didn´t show you any, or do you see something about Majdanek here?

I see only my recommendation to learn basics from official narrative to understand what I am talking about, when I say you, chamber number IV is complete fraud, do you know what i am talking about? Propably not.

Prove hang on the Barrack 41 which contain four alleged homicidal chambers.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... amp_21.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5148/35300388.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bad und Desinfektion, simple. Across the road, there is another Barrack 42 with another delousing chambers, nobody claims that peoples were gassed here and Barrack 42 is closed to tourist at least to my knowledge. So they gassed victims in front of the other ordinary delousing barrack which were used by prisoners to delouse clothing? Hm, top secret indeed.

Here is basic map
http://0.tqn.com/d/history1900s/1/0/f/6/majdanekmap.GIF" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice the need to move gassed victims across the whole camp to crematorium in front of the eyes of whole camp. Some sources try to to explain that victims were also burned besides the Barrack 41. Again, top secret indeed.

Pressac about this chamber:
For these reasons I do not believe that Section A could have served for homicidal Zyklon B gassings.

Jean-Claude Pressac, “Les carences et incohérences du rapport Leuchter”, in: Journal J, December 1988., pp. VII, VIII.
Did you notice that this chamber III on your photo has no ceiling openings to introduce Zyklon B and the dumb nazis should have to somehow throw it on the victims from the doors?

Did you notice that there is no ventilation system and ventilation could be accomplished only by opening the doors so the building would be contaminated?

Your really need to explain why this is not homicidal gas chamber? You don´t have eyes?

Edit - sorry Nessie, there is no logical explanation why the Germans should take photos of clothing in cyanide delousing chambers.

If you have at least some sanity, there is no need to further explain that this isn´t homicidal gas chamber. If you believe, congratulations, even Pressac didn´t believe in this ridiculous chamber.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:51 pm

Please note - I am not saying the gas chambers were for human use, that is not the topic here. I am asking for proof that will pass my critical examination that the chambers were used to delouse/clean clothes.

Can you show me any item of clothing that has been tested for residue of Zyklon B?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:06 pm

Nessie wrote:Please note - I am not saying the gas chambers were for human use, that is not the topic here. I am asking for proof that will pass my critical examination that the chambers were used to delouse/clean clothes.

Can you show me any item of clothing that has been tested for residue of Zyklon B?
There is no Zyklon B residue, but cyanide residue, Zyklon B is only name for delousing product.

At least to my knowledge, nobody never tested any cloth for cyanide residue since nobody never denied that clothing was deloused in German camps, nobody never doubt that Germans deloused cloths, since this is documented, physical evidence and etc. you are propably first who has some doubts about it.

Simple question, the chamber which you had show me, is homicidal? Do you believe it?
If not, why did they built it and why has cyanide residues visible on the walls? Tell me your thesis, this will be propably the new unique theory about using of these chambers since there are only two in these days, homicidal and delousing.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by David » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:15 pm

Nessie wrote:Please note - I am not saying the gas chambers were for human use, that is not the topic here. I am asking for proof that will pass my critical examination that the chambers were used to delouse/clean clothes.

Can you show me any item of clothing that has been tested for residue of Zyklon B?
Hello Nessie-
Interesting test of historic beliefs. Do you mind if I shift the
question to Auschwitz/Birkenau?
Having climbed into the Central Sauna at Birkenau and looked around,
the place is definately set up as a place to steam clothes.
There were actually clothes racks and hangers still around.

Here are some pictures of the physical evidence on site.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... Sauna.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the other hand, there were no clothes.
So it was very much like finding a toaster but with no toast in it.

Pressac writes extensively on the use of Zyklon and the documents
which show the fumigation of clothing

See- http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; et seq.


As to a particularly piece of clothing that I can prove was
fumigated at Birkenau? There might be some in the museums but
I cannot point to one.

But your question about fumigation is significantly different from
Bob's question about proof of millions of bodies in the
following ways:

1. There are still complete fumigation systems in near working condition.
2. There is complete documentation of the use of Zyklon for fumigation
of clothes.
3. The fumigation of clothes was a common event.
4. There were reports of large amounts of fumigated clothing being found
at War's end.

These are all reasonable types of evidence (circumstantial and direct)
None of them exist for claims of gassing millions of bodies.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:18 pm

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please note - I am not saying the gas chambers were for human use, that is not the topic here. I am asking for proof that will pass my critical examination that the chambers were used to delouse/clean clothes.

Can you show me any item of clothing that has been tested for residue of Zyklon B?
There is no Zyklon B residue, but cyanide residue, Zyklon B is only name for delousing product.

At least to my knowledge, nobody never tested any cloth for cyanide residue since nobody never denied that clothing was deloused in German camps, nobody never doubt that Germans deloused cloths, since this is documented, physical evidence and etc. you are propably first who has some doubts about it.

So there is no proof that Zyklon B was used on clothes.

Simple question, the chamber which you had show me, is homicidal? Do you believe it?
If not, why did they built it and why has cyanide residues visible on the walls? Tell me your thesis, this will be propably the new unique theory about using of these chambers since there are only two in these days, homicidal and delousing.
I am not saying it homicidal, how many times do I have to repeat that. But if you cannot prove it was used for clothing, then we are at a loss as to what they were used for.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:25 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:Please note - I am not saying the gas chambers were for human use, that is not the topic here. I am asking for proof that will pass my critical examination that the chambers were used to delouse/clean clothes.

Can you show me any item of clothing that has been tested for residue of Zyklon B?
Hello Nessie-
Interesting test of historic beliefs. Do you mind if I shift the
question to Auschwitz/Birkenau?
Having climbed into the Central Sauna at Birkenau and looked around,
the place is definately set up as a place to steam clothes.
There were actually clothes racks and hangers still around.

Here are some pictures of the physical evidence on site.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... Sauna.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see some evidence of what is described as a hot air oven to delouse clothes, but it rather small for the numbers of people passing through the building when claims are made that all clothes were cleaned.

On the other hand, there were no clothes.
So it was very much like finding a toaster but with no toast in it.

Pressac writes extensively on the use of Zyklon and the documents
which show the fumigation of clothing

See- http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; et seq.


As to a particularly piece of clothing that I can prove was
fumigated at Birkenau? There might be some in the museums but
I cannot point to one.

So you admit to a big failing in proving all the chambers built were for clothing.


But your question about fumigation is significantly different from
Bob's question about proof of millions of bodies in the
following ways:

1. There are still complete fumigation systems in near working condition. Yes, but show me evidence it was for clothes.

2. There is complete documentation of the use of Zyklon for fumigation
of clothes. Please show me

3. The fumigation of clothes was a common event. Evidence please

4. There were reports of large amounts of fumigated clothing being found
at War's end. Evidence please, especially since you admit there has been no testing of clothign to prove it was fumigated

These are all reasonable types of evidence (circumstantial and direct) But it needs to evidence that passes my critical analysis

None of them exist for claims of gassing millions of bodies. That is not the matter under debate here
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:26 pm

Nessie, this isn´t propably what you want, but these photos are from hot-air delousing chambers in Central sauna, not cyanide chambers.

http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-52.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-57.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-59.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you see coths? I do.

Here are delousing chamber for trains
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-73.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-72.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-69.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-68.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, not only cloths, but whole trains were deloused, Germans knew very well how to build gas chambers and even ideal for mass murder because whole train could be gassed at one time, but big surprise, nobody claim that peoples were gassed here. Ridiculous.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:31 pm

Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:41 pm

Bob wrote:Nessie, this isn´t propably what you want, but these photos are from hot-air delousing chambers in Central sauna, not cyanide chambers.

http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-52.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-57.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-59.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you see coths? I do.

Here are delousing chamber for trains
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-73.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-72.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-69.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-68.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, not only cloths, but whole trains were deloused, Germans knew very well how to build gas chambers and even ideal for mass murder because whole train could be gassed at one time, but big surprise, nobody claim that peoples were gassed here. Ridiculous.
OK, so the hot air oven in the central sauna was for clothes, but there is no evidence of clothes cleaned in the much larger gas chambers.

The train shed is not the issue, trains drive into sheds nowadays to be cleaned, so what, that is not evidence for your alleged massive clothes cleaning operation run by the Nazis at only some camps only in certain parts of the occupied territory.

Have you evidence of clothing being sent from camps without a gas chamber to a camp with one to be cleaned?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:44 pm

Bob wrote:Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.
This is not trolling, please as I have respected you and at least tried to answered your questions in other threads will you do the same here.

Those photos are of a few clothes apparently out to dry in the sun and another building of which purpose is not clear.

Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:54 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Nessie, this isn´t propably what you want, but these photos are from hot-air delousing chambers in Central sauna, not cyanide chambers.

http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-52.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-57.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-59.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Do you see coths? I do.

Here are delousing chamber for trains
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-73.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-72.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-69.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-68.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, not only cloths, but whole trains were deloused, Germans knew very well how to build gas chambers and even ideal for mass murder because whole train could be gassed at one time, but big surprise, nobody claim that peoples were gassed here. Ridiculous.
OK, so the hot air oven in the central sauna was for clothes, but there is no evidence of clothes cleaned in the much larger gas chambers.

The train shed is not the issue, trains drive into sheds nowadays to be cleaned, so what, that is not evidence for your alleged massive clothes cleaning operation run by the Nazis at only some camps only in certain parts of the occupied territory.

Have you evidence of clothing being sent from camps without a gas chamber to a camp with one to be cleaned?
Much larger? What are you talking about? All delousing chambers are small, I provided you even with blueprint. Of course they are small to save space to speed up delousing. Only train chambers are huge.

Show me your alleged much larger delousing chamber because I don´t know what are you talking about.

I never cared about documented evidence for transit of cloths only for purposes of delousing since lot of camps have own delousing facility, orthodox historians agree with delousing of cloths, nobody never denied it. I remember such a infromation when I read books, but never bothered to store this "important" information for future Nessie thread.

Same as with that I never cared about documented evidence that peoples used beds for sleeping in nazi camps.

I miss subject of this thread.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:19 pm

What I am saying is

- since the gas chambers are not for humans

- they are claimed to be for cleaning clothes

- so prove to me that the gas chambers allegedly used for humans were in fact used for cleaning clothes.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:44 pm

Nessie wrote:What I am saying is

- since the gas chambers are not for humans

- they are claimed to be for cleaning clothes

- so prove to me that the gas chambers allegedly used for humans were in fact used for cleaning clothes.
Problem - you must specify gas chamber, because as I said, in some places nobody claims that gassing took place in delousing chambers and no revisionist say that were used for delousing cloths, for example, in Dachau, the only one alleged homicidal gas chamber is explained by revisionist as shower room and it is shower room and not delousing chamber for cloth. In Mauthausen, again, shower not delousing.

You are still confused that "deniers" all alleged gas chambers explains as delousing chambers for cloth, but this is not true.

As you see, you must specify what chamber you are talking about.

Again, I still miss the subject, you must prove homicidal use, that is the issue.

Pressac again
"During the trials that were held after the war, the tons of Zyklon-B ordered by the camps were attributed to homicidal use without any verification. By far the greater part (over 95 percent) was destined for delousing (effects and buildings) while only a very small part (less than 5 percent) had been used for homicidal gassings."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In this manner, 97% to 98% of the gas could be used for delousing."

Les crématoire d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse di Jean-Claude Pressac, 1993 p. 47
You must dealt with the fact, that only possible alternate explanation of some gas chambers are delousing purposes as is proved even by orthodox sources, there is no other possibility, only homicidal (orthodox) or delousing (revisionist) in some places showers.

Places like castle Hartheim and etc. are different story.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:12 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.
This is not trolling, please as I have respected you and at least tried to answered your questions in other threads will you do the same here.

Those photos are of a few clothes apparently out to dry in the sun and another building of which purpose is not clear.

Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?

No, they are not drying, they hang in front of the delousing chambers in Dachau.
Nessie, the second photo is the same place, the same building, this building contain delousing cyanide chambers for delousing cloth.

Nessie, again you are wrong, these buildings were not used for gassings according to official narrative, the only gas chamber which was allegedly used is this
http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... addoor.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscr ... auC051.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But of course, after the war, they claimed that delousing buildings were used for gassing, they even showed this photo of door of one of the delousing chamber to spread this lie to the world
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dachau.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope you see why this is absurd, that is reason why this claim was dropped soon, and only one chamber was used according to some orthodox sources. For example, some orthodox sources deny even this one chamber, for example, Martin Broszat.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by David » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:43 pm

Hello Ness-
I am confused with your question that,
"Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?"

The main alleged "gas chambers" of Birkenau were not ever used for
fumigating clothing.
They were created as Leichenkeller or Morgues.

In Krema II and III there was also an area for preparing the bodies.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:00 pm

David wrote:Hello Ness-
I am confused with your question that,
"Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?"

The main alleged "gas chambers" of Birkenau were not ever used for
fumigating clothing.
They were created as Leichenkeller or Morgues.

In Krema II and III there was also an area for preparing the bodies.
This isn´t correct 100%

CCO planned to use Krema II-III morgues as provisional emergency delousing chambers during typhus epidemics, documents speaks about it. Also in Krema IV-V, the revisionists ("deniers" for thos who don´t know this term) uses thesis of delousing according to documents.

Is hard to explain this to detail to someone who don´t know at least basics.

Here are criminal traces from Irving trial
http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/van" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are criminal traces from Pressac, Robert Faurisson wanted one proof, he got 39 "traces"
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0429.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by David » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:56 pm

quote="Bob"]
David wrote:Hello Ness-
I am confused with your question that,
"Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?"

The main alleged "gas chambers" of Birkenau were not ever used for
fumigating clothing.
They were created as Leichenkeller or Morgues.

In Krema II and III there was also an area for preparing the bodies.
This isn´t correct 100%

CCO planned to use Krema II-III morgues as provisional emergency delousing chambers during typhus epidemics, documents speaks about it. Also in Krema IV-V, the revisionists ("deniers" for thos who don´t know this term) uses thesis of delousing according to documents.

Is hard to explain this to detail to someone who don´t know at least basics.

Here are criminal traces from Irving trial
http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/van" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are criminal traces from Pressac, Robert Faurisson wanted one proof, he got 39 "traces"
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0429.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

Good points,Bob. The basement area of Kremas II and III had a variety of uses, including a disecting lab, bathroom, and storage room.
Krema II also appears to have replaced Krema I as the administration office
recording deaths when that function was moved from Krema I sometime
in 1943. That Krema II had uses incompatible with mass gassings with
cyanide gas is "overlooked" by Believers.

However, it is very clear that the "gas chambers" were designed and built as morgues.
Pressac gives a good outline of the schedule of construction of the 5
morgues of Auschwitz.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:01 am

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:What I am saying is

- since the gas chambers are not for humans

- they are claimed to be for cleaning clothes

- so prove to me that the gas chambers allegedly used for humans were in fact used for cleaning clothes.
Problem - you must specify gas chamber, because as I said, in some places nobody claims that gassing took place in delousing chambers and no revisionist say that were used for delousing cloths, for example, in Dachau, the only one alleged homicidal gas chamber is explained by revisionist as shower room and it is shower room and not delousing chamber for cloth. In Mauthausen, again, shower not delousing.

You are still confused that "deniers" all alleged gas chambers explains as delousing chambers for cloth, but this is not true.

As you see, you must specify what chamber you are talking about.

OK, lets start Krema II gas chamber, but a search of Wikipedia will easily show which gas chambers the believers say humans were killed in, so any will do

Again, I still miss the subject, you must prove homicidal use, that is the issue.

Again, since you have cast reasonable doubt on the homicidal use of gas chambers, we are now looking at what else they were used for and cleaning clothes is the often suggested reason

Pressac again
"During the trials that were held after the war, the tons of Zyklon-B ordered by the camps were attributed to homicidal use without any verification. By far the greater part (over 95 percent) was destined for delousing (effects and buildings) while only a very small part (less than 5 percent) had been used for homicidal gassings."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In this manner, 97% to 98% of the gas could be used for delousing."

Les crématoire d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse di Jean-Claude Pressac, 1993 p. 47
You must dealt with the fact, that only possible alternate explanation of some gas chambers are delousing purposes as is proved even by orthodox sources, there is no other possibility, only homicidal (orthodox) or delousing (revisionist) in some places showers.

And this thread is looking for proof that gas chambers were used for delousing. If human use is to be proven with a masive weight of evidence, then so should delousing.

Places like castle Hartheim and etc. are different story.
So you understand, I am impressed by your standard of proof and your critical examination which has cast doubt on the human use of gas chambers, so it seems reasonable that I do the same for the delousing theory.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:07 am

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.
This is not trolling, please as I have respected you and at least tried to answered your questions in other threads will you do the same here.

Those photos are of a few clothes apparently out to dry in the sun and another building of which purpose is not clear.

Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?

No, they are not drying, they hang in front of the delousing chambers in Dachau. Can you prove that?
Nessie, the second photo is the same place, the same building, this building contain delousing cyanide chambers for delousing cloth. Can you prove that?

Nessie, again you are wrong, these buildings were not used for gassings according to official narrative, the only gas chamber which was allegedly used is this
http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... addoor.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscr ... auC051.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But of course, after the war, they claimed that delousing buildings were used for gassing, they even showed this photo of door of one of the delousing chamber to spread this lie to the world
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dachau.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope you see why this is absurd, that is reason why this claim was dropped soon, and only one chamber was used according to some orthodox sources. For example, some orthodox sources deny even this one chamber, for example, Martin Broszat.
I accept that some buildings were possibly used for delousing (which appears to be a Nazi obsession) but there is no proof so far that gas chambers which were allegedly used for humans, as defined by the believer/orthodox side were in fact used for cleaning clothes.

Is there any evidence that once Jews had washed in the showers and had their clothes cleaned that they were given their clothes back?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by David » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:21 am

Take a look at pictures from the Auschwitz Album
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page12.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page13.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page13.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is worth noting that the Yad Vashem has deleted any photographs
with people smiling. Thrown into the Memory Hole!

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:19 am

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:What I am saying is

- since the gas chambers are not for humans

- they are claimed to be for cleaning clothes

- so prove to me that the gas chambers allegedly used for humans were in fact used for cleaning clothes.
Problem - you must specify gas chamber, because as I said, in some places nobody claims that gassing took place in delousing chambers and no revisionist say that were used for delousing cloths, for example, in Dachau, the only one alleged homicidal gas chamber is explained by revisionist as shower room and it is shower room and not delousing chamber for cloth. In Mauthausen, again, shower not delousing.

You are still confused that "deniers" all alleged gas chambers explains as delousing chambers for cloth, but this is not true.

As you see, you must specify what chamber you are talking about.

OK, lets start Krema II gas chamber, but a search of Wikipedia will easily show which gas chambers the believers say humans were killed in, so any will do

Again, I still miss the subject, you must prove homicidal use, that is the issue.

Again, since you have cast reasonable doubt on the homicidal use of gas chambers, we are now looking at what else they were used for and cleaning clothes is the often suggested reason

Pressac again
"During the trials that were held after the war, the tons of Zyklon-B ordered by the camps were attributed to homicidal use without any verification. By far the greater part (over 95 percent) was destined for delousing (effects and buildings) while only a very small part (less than 5 percent) had been used for homicidal gassings."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In this manner, 97% to 98% of the gas could be used for delousing."

Les crématoire d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse di Jean-Claude Pressac, 1993 p. 47
You must dealt with the fact, that only possible alternate explanation of some gas chambers are delousing purposes as is proved even by orthodox sources, there is no other possibility, only homicidal (orthodox) or delousing (revisionist) in some places showers.

And this thread is looking for proof that gas chambers were used for delousing. If human use is to be proven with a masive weight of evidence, then so should delousing.

Places like castle Hartheim and etc. are different story.
So you understand, I am impressed by your standard of proof and your critical examination which has cast doubt on the human use of gas chambers, so it seems reasonable that I do the same for the delousing theory.
Ok, Krema II chamber, please move to my thread about it. Revisionist says morgues, not gas chambers about these. Once also planned as emergency delousing station, but still crematoria and morgues.

Delousing chamber is propably often suggested reason according to media, but this don´t apply to all alleged chamber, that is why you need to specify chamber.

There is no massive evidence, only testimonies, that´s all, the worst possible evidence.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.
This is not trolling, please as I have respected you and at least tried to answered your questions in other threads will you do the same here.

Those photos are of a few clothes apparently out to dry in the sun and another building of which purpose is not clear.

Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?

No, they are not drying, they hang in front of the delousing chambers in Dachau. Can you prove that?
Nessie, the second photo is the same place, the same building, this building contain delousing cyanide chambers for delousing cloth. Can you prove that?

Nessie, again you are wrong, these buildings were not used for gassings according to official narrative, the only gas chamber which was allegedly used is this
http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... addoor.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscr ... auC051.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But of course, after the war, they claimed that delousing buildings were used for gassing, they even showed this photo of door of one of the delousing chamber to spread this lie to the world
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dachau.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope you see why this is absurd, that is reason why this claim was dropped soon, and only one chamber was used according to some orthodox sources. For example, some orthodox sources deny even this one chamber, for example, Martin Broszat.
I accept that some buildings were possibly used for delousing (which appears to be a Nazi obsession) but there is no proof so far that gas chambers which were allegedly used for humans, as defined by the believer/orthodox side were in fact used for cleaning clothes.

Is there any evidence that once Jews had washed in the showers and had their clothes cleaned that they were given their clothes back?
Sorry I don´t need to prove it, nobody claims that these delousing chambers in Dachau served as homicidal gas chambers, both sides accept delousing using so why to bother? You wanted photos, you got it, but you want some other proof, I don´t know what proof you want.

You doubt that both photo shows the same building? Of course, if you don´t see that they are completely identical, just stand up, book your ticket and travel to Germany, you can take this same photo, is this enough to prove that buildings are the same? Is physical evidence enough for you?

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:52 pm

David wrote:Take a look at pictures from the Auschwitz Album
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page12.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page13.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibit ... page13.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is worth noting that the Yad Vashem has deleted any photographs
with people smiling. Thrown into the Memory Hole!
Prove to me that the prisoners clothes were in fact deloused and prove to me that was done in a gas chamber the belivers think was for humans.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:11 pm

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:What I am saying is

- since the gas chambers are not for humans

- they are claimed to be for cleaning clothes

- so prove to me that the gas chambers allegedly used for humans were in fact used for cleaning clothes.
Problem - you must specify gas chamber, because as I said, in some places nobody claims that gassing took place in delousing chambers and no revisionist say that were used for delousing cloths, for example, in Dachau, the only one alleged homicidal gas chamber is explained by revisionist as shower room and it is shower room and not delousing chamber for cloth. In Mauthausen, again, shower not delousing.

You are still confused that "deniers" all alleged gas chambers explains as delousing chambers for cloth, but this is not true.

As you see, you must specify what chamber you are talking about.

OK, lets start Krema II gas chamber, but a search of Wikipedia will easily show which gas chambers the believers say humans were killed in, so any will do

Again, I still miss the subject, you must prove homicidal use, that is the issue.

Again, since you have cast reasonable doubt on the homicidal use of gas chambers, we are now looking at what else they were used for and cleaning clothes is the often suggested reason

Pressac again
"During the trials that were held after the war, the tons of Zyklon-B ordered by the camps were attributed to homicidal use without any verification. By far the greater part (over 95 percent) was destined for delousing (effects and buildings) while only a very small part (less than 5 percent) had been used for homicidal gassings."

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In this manner, 97% to 98% of the gas could be used for delousing."

Les crématoire d’Auschwitz. La machinerie du meurtre de masse di Jean-Claude Pressac, 1993 p. 47
You must dealt with the fact, that only possible alternate explanation of some gas chambers are delousing purposes as is proved even by orthodox sources, there is no other possibility, only homicidal (orthodox) or delousing (revisionist) in some places showers.

And this thread is looking for proof that gas chambers were used for delousing. If human use is to be proven with a masive weight of evidence, then so should delousing.

Places like castle Hartheim and etc. are different story.
So you understand, I am impressed by your standard of proof and your critical examination which has cast doubt on the human use of gas chambers, so it seems reasonable that I do the same for the delousing theory.
Ok, Krema II chamber, please move to my thread about it. Revisionist says morgues, not gas chambers about these. Once also planned as emergency delousing station, but still crematoria and morgues.

Delousing chamber is propably often suggested reason according to media, but this don´t apply to all alleged chamber, that is why you need to specify chamber.

There is no massive evidence, only testimonies, that´s all, the worst possible evidence.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Sorry Nessie, your response to David looks like complete trolling to me.

You wanted photos, you got it, here is another one from Dachau, cloth hanged in front of the delousing chambers.
http://www.nazigassings.com/images/Dach ... msUSHM.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Delousing chambers
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScr ... /AS019.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don´t understand what you want to achieve.
This is not trolling, please as I have respected you and at least tried to answered your questions in other threads will you do the same here.

Those photos are of a few clothes apparently out to dry in the sun and another building of which purpose is not clear.

Can you prove that those clothes were cleaned in gas chambers that others claim were used to gas humans?

No, they are not drying, they hang in front of the delousing chambers in Dachau. Can you prove that?
Nessie, the second photo is the same place, the same building, this building contain delousing cyanide chambers for delousing cloth. Can you prove that?

Nessie, again you are wrong, these buildings were not used for gassings according to official narrative, the only gas chamber which was allegedly used is this
http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... addoor.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/dachauscr ... auC051.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But of course, after the war, they claimed that delousing buildings were used for gassing, they even showed this photo of door of one of the delousing chamber to spread this lie to the world
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/dachau.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope you see why this is absurd, that is reason why this claim was dropped soon, and only one chamber was used according to some orthodox sources. For example, some orthodox sources deny even this one chamber, for example, Martin Broszat.
I accept that some buildings were possibly used for delousing (which appears to be a Nazi obsession) but there is no proof so far that gas chambers which were allegedly used for humans, as defined by the believer/orthodox side were in fact used for cleaning clothes.

Is there any evidence that once Jews had washed in the showers and had their clothes cleaned that they were given their clothes back?
Sorry I don´t need to prove it, nobody claims that these delousing chambers in Dachau served as homicidal gas chambers, both sides accept delousing using so why to bother? You wanted photos, you got it, but you want some other proof, I don´t know what proof you want.

You doubt that both photo shows the same building? Of course, if you don´t see that they are completely identical, just stand up, book your ticket and travel to Germany, you can take this same photo, is this enough to prove that buildings are the same? Is physical evidence enough for you?
You are avoiding the issue now. I have linked to places such as the gas chamber at Majdanek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Majda ... Gazowa.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here is the one at Stutthof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Komora_gazowa_02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and Krema II

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If no one is saying Dachau had homicidal gas chambers it is not relevant. The argument is about supposed homicidal gas chambers and what they were used for.

In the same way as you use your arguments and critical analysis, so can I and as a result that you claim no human was gased, I can show no clothes were deloused there either.

So what were they used for?

Regarding the images of the same building, yes it probably is the same building, but it is possible that they are different buildings just made identically. But it is not a supposed homicidal gas chamber, so it is irrelevant.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Nessie wrote:You are avoiding the issue now. I have linked to places such as the gas chamber at Majdanek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Majda ... Gazowa.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and here is the one at Stutthof

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Komora_gazowa_02.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and Krema II

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If no one is saying Dachau had homicidal gas chambers it is not relevant. The argument is about supposed homicidal gas chambers and what they were used for.

In the same way as you use your arguments and critical analysis, so can I and as a result that you claim no human was gased, I can show no clothes were deloused there either.

So what were they used for?

Regarding the images of the same building, yes it probably is the same building, but it is possible that they are different buildings just made identically. But it is not a supposed homicidal gas chamber, so it is irrelevant.
No avoiding, don´t lie please.

Discussion in last comments was about Dachau, you wanted to prove delousing chambers, when I proved you that they are delousing and even nobody claims that they were used for homicidal purposes, you now say "If no one is saying Dachau had homicidal gas chambers it is not relevant. The argument is about supposed homicidal gas chambers and what they were used for." Of course this is relevant, these chambers were not used for homicidal purposes according to orthodox sources, but you want to "somehow" prove delousing chambers anyway, this is ridiculous. I showed you photos, I recommend to you to see them since they still exist and you know say that his is not relevant. It looks like to me, that you were demolished and try to dodge your absurd demand to prove something which is accepted from both sides, from believers and from revisionist. You have said "The argument is about supposed homicidal gas chambers and what they were used for." Exactly, that is why you are completely off with Dachau, the alleged gas chamber is located in shower room and shower room is revisionist explanation, not delousing cyanide chamber. Dachau, you are right I cannot prove that alleged gas chamber is cloth delousing chamber since this chamber is shower room. : ) You finally got me.

Next, Nessie don´t jump to another subject, first is needed to solve what you started and not jump to Stutthof. Regarding the Krema II, move it to my thread which is about Krema II please, and ask your questions there.

In the same way as you use your arguments and critical analysis, so can I and as a result that you claim no human was gased, I can show no clothes were deloused there either.
Oh yes Nessie, if you don´t accept all my evidence as I see, you can say it if you want, but without backing this claim. Then I ask you what is your explanation for this room, if not homicidal use, if not delousing chamber, if not shower, I will ask you for what purpose this room served. Do you know what will happen? You will fail, because if homicidal theory is false, if delousing theory is false, if shower room is false then I only wonder what explanation come from you Nessie to explain purpose of this room, to explain prussian blue, gas tight doors, and etc.

I already explained. Majdanek chamber III is delousing chamber using Zyklon B. I already provided you with lot of information.

Still don´t agree or you don´t believe? No problem, If homicidal and delousing theories are false, can you tell me purpose of this room? I am all ears Nessie.
Regarding the images of the same building, yes it probably is the same building, but it is possible that they are different buildings just made identically. But it is not a supposed homicidal gas chamber, so it is irrelevant.
No, they are identical, not propably but for sure, if you don´t believe, take a trip to Dachau, material evidence is still there.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Regarding Dachau, we are in total agreement that no gas chamber was there to gas humans, only delousing, so I do not see the point in arguing.

My question is a general one about any camp which according to believers had a homicidal gas chamber. If it was not used to kill humans, as you say what was it for?

The reason why I ask about cleaning clothes is because revisionists have claimed gas chambers are a means of cleaning clothes, so I want proof of that.

If Majdaneck III is one of those chambers how was the Zyklon B safely put into the chamber to clean clothes? You have already said it would be too dangerous to so that for humans and could contaminate the rest of the building. Why can you not show me one item of clothing in the chamber or prove any item of clothing has been cleaned there? I know you say there is no logic in taking a photo of clothes in there, but there is logic in not taking a phot of bodies in there and some photos of clothes would have shown an innocent purpose to the chamber.

That is the same standard of proof you require for humans, so why not clothes?

If the chambers are not proven for use on humans and applying that standard to clothes, not proven for use on clothes, I have no idea what they were used for and it would appear neither do you.

If you are a beliver, you do then have the option of accepting the evidence you reject, that of witness testimony the chambers were used for humans and the logic of where did all the Jews who vanished at the camps go to? So you can at least (maybe) see better the believer argument and the flaws in yours.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Nessie wrote:Regarding Dachau, we are in total agreement that no gas chamber was there to gas humans, only delousing, so I do not see the point in arguing.

Interesting, how did you arrive in this? Are you aware of official reports and testimonies and affidavit which "prove" gassing? Are you aware of German law which according to my knowledge prohibite denying of gas chamber in Dachau?

My question is a general one about any camp which according to believers had a homicidal gas chamber. If it was not used to kill humans, as you say what was it for?

Your question cannot be answered in general, revisionists say - somewhere delousing chamber, somewhere shower, somewhere just ordinary room, somewhere the room even didn´t exist.

The reason why I ask about cleaning clothes is because revisionists have claimed gas chambers are a means of cleaning clothes, so I want proof of that.

Problem is that revisionists don´t say this in general, but media does, so clear strawman. It depend on every chamber individually.

If Majdaneck III is one of those chambers how was the Zyklon B safely put into the chamber to clean clothes? You have already said it would be too dangerous to so that for humans and could contaminate the rest of the building. Why can you not show me one item of clothing in the chamber or prove any item of clothing has been cleaned there? I know you say there is no logic in taking a photo of clothes in there, but there is logic in not taking a phot of bodies in there and some photos of clothes would have shown an innocent purpose to the chamber.

How? Simple, one door is closed, man in gas mask came, threw Zyklon pellets on floor to spread them to be more effective and left the room with second door (common practice in chambers without modern equipment). After delousing, the chamber was ventilated. There is no danger since this delousing block is isolated from the camp and peoples couldn´t enter area in vicinity of the delousing chamber to avoid poisoning, simple, any problems?

Wrong, the prisoners able to smuggle cameras had clear reason why to take photo, but they didn´t, the peoples around the camps able to observe extermination were able too and have f*****g big reason why to take some, but they didn´t. The Germans allegedly took photos of peoples allegedly on the way to chamber, waiting in front of the chamber, property of gassing victims and etc. so they were even able to take even the other criminal photos, but they didn´t. Why? Becuase of secrecy? Hardly when they allegedly took all these photos before or after, logical assumption is that all these photos allegedly showing peoples besides chamber, on the way to chamber, in front of the chamber and etc., simply don´t show anything like this.

I cannot show you something which I don´t have. I showed you Dachau clothing image or Birkenau clothing image, the first is after liberation, Birkenau is from air-hot sauna. But sorry, no German in gas mask bothered to take photo of cloths in delousing chamber in Majdanek. Of course, such a photo is possible to take, but i didn´t see it, we can assume their existence in archives and they could be prohibited to show, but at least to my knowledge, no such a photo was released = don´t exist.Since there is no other logical explanation for this room, all evidence speak about delousing so is it clearly delousing chamber.


Even if I would show you photo of one piece of deloused cloth, you would believe that photo really shows deloused cloth from delousing chamber? I doubt it.

That is the same standard of proof you require for humans, so why not clothes?

Gassing of millions of humans require to leave literally tons of proofs, but delousing of cloths? What proofs the delousing of cloth should have to leave? Tell me. I have just washed my shirt, but I did not leave any traces, there is simply no reason. Do you think that I am able to do the same in the case of murders?

If the chambers are not proven for use on humans and applying that standard to clothes, not proven for use on clothes, I have no idea what they were used for and it would appear neither do you.

You have no idea, good, thanks for answer. But I have, based on evidence and without need of some testimonies.You must be able to refute my evidence to say - you didn´t prove your theory Bob. You did this? Where? When someone provide me with some evidence here, I have no problem to refute it, that is the big difference, you and the others can only say "I don´t believe you" but you can´t specify why. Some extreme cases want something what cannot even exist, Rich England and his DNA or video are nice examples of absurd approach which is clearly motivated with different motives and not to discuss the subject properly.

If you are a beliver, you do then have the option of accepting the evidence you reject, that of witness testimony the chambers were used for humans and the logic of where did all the Jews who vanished at the camps go to? So you can at least (maybe) see better the believer argument and the flaws in yours.

Sorry, i dont see any flaws in my arguments, I don´t need ridiculous testimonies to prove what i say.
If you have no idea, no problem, but do you believe in homicidal gassing in this room? Answer please.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Interesting, how did you arrive in this? Are you aware of official reports and testimonies and affidavit which "prove" gassing? Are you aware of German law which according to my knowledge prohibite denying of gas chamber in Dachau?

Regarding Dachau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Over its twelve years as a concentration camp, the Dachau administration recorded the intake of 206,206 prisoners and 31,951 deaths. Crematoria were constructed to dispose of the deceased. There is no evidence of mass murder within the camp. And though it is claimed that in 1942 more than 3166 prisoners in weakened condition were transported to Hartheim Castle near Linz and there were executed by poison gas for reason of their unfitness."

Your question cannot be answered in general, revisionists say - somewhere delousing chamber, somewhere shower, somewhere just ordinary room, somewhere the room even didn´t exist.


So we agree that you cannot prove for certain that the purpose of a gas chamber which is normally associated with human killing was in fact only used to clean clothes.


How? Simple, one door is closed, man in gas mask came, threw Zyklon pellets on floor to spread them to be more effective and left the room with second door (common practice in chambers without modern equipment). After delousing, the chamber was ventilated. There is no danger since this delousing block is isolated from the camp and peoples couldn´t enter area in vicinity of the delousing chamber to avoid poisoning, simple, any problems?


Regarding Majdanek III, why is it safe to throw in Zyclon B and vent it afterwards for clothes but not for humans?

Wrong, the prisoners able to smuggle cameras had clear reason why to take photo, but they didn´t, the peoples around the camps able to observe extermination were able too and have f*****g big reason why to take some, but they didn´t. The Germans allegedly took photos of peoples allegedly on the way to chamber, waiting in front of the chamber, property of gassing victims and etc. so they were even able to take even the other criminal photos, but they didn´t. Why? Becuase of secrecy? Hardly when they allegedly took all these photos before or after, logical assumption is that all these photos allegedly showing peoples besides chamber, on the way to chamber, in front of the chamber and etc., simply don´t show anything like this.

So German security was lax enough that you find it strange there are not lots of smuggled photos? That there are photos of Jews and others inside the camps only proves that there were Jews and others in concentration camps. Secrecy does appear to a major issue for the Nazis, especially after Katyn when they saw the consequences for leaving behind evidence.

I cannot show you something which I don´t have. I showed you Dachau clothing image or Birkenau clothing image, the first is after liberation, Birkenau is from air-hot sauna. But sorry, no German in gas mask bothered to take photo of cloths in delousing chamber in Majdanek. Of course, such a photo is possible to take, but i didn´t see it, we can assume their existence in archives and they could be prohibited to show, but at least to my knowledge, no such a photo was released = don´t exist.Since there is no other logical explanation for this room, all evidence speak about delousing so is it clearly delousing chamber.


Well yes, German photos of the camps showed life and not death there. That no photo has been released does not = don't exist. There is logic behind it being for humans, but this is about your and my demands for proof.

You have no idea, good, thanks for answer. But I have, based on evidence and without need of some testimonies.You must be able to refute my evidence to say - you didn´t prove your theory Bob. You did this? Where? When someone provide me with some evidence here, I have no problem to refute it, that is the big difference, you and the others can only say "I don´t believe you" but you can´t specify why. Some extreme cases want something what cannot even exist, Rich England and his DNA or video are nice examples of absurd approach which is clearly motivated with different motives and not to discuss the subject properly.

But you admit you do not have evidence and instead rely on logic to prove that the gas chambers were exclusively used for clothes and not humans. Neither of us can prove our hypothesis regarding use of the gas chambers to each others satisfaction as of yet.

If you have no idea, no problem, but do you believe in homicidal gassing in this room? Answer please.

You will not like this Bob, but I am being honets when I say that am not there yet to answer that question

- I accept that you have very good evidence that no human was gassed there

- my own reading has found that indeed we do not know what was gassed in there

- there is a possibility that nothing was gassed there

- the overall use of the whole building is unclear

- the above only works if we reject all witness testimony

- there is good reason for the Nazis to be vague and secretive about what happened there

- there are a lot of missing Jews whose disappearance or where abouts is unaccounted for

- there is evidence of Jews arriving at the camp and then vanishing, which means something happened to them at the hands of the Nazi guards.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:07 pm

Nessie wrote:If you have no idea, no problem, but do you believe in homicidal gassing in this room? Answer please.

You will not like this Bob, but I am being honets when I say that am not there yet to answer that question

No problem Nessie, you already showed lot of honesty which all of the local believers can envy you and I understand that is a big problem to maybe deny gassing from your side since you could be labeled as denier.

- I accept that you have very good evidence that no human was gassed there

And you even didn´t saw all. Gas chamber IV is far more ridiculous.

- my own reading has found that indeed we do not know what was gassed in there

I believe tha nobody, soon or later, I believe that Majdanek will fall as one of the first from alleged extermination camps.

- there is a possibility that nothing was gassed there

I would say 100% possibility, only poor lices were killed by gas, don´t forget that when one chamber fell the others must fall too since everything depend on each other, is n´t possible to say "Yes, we lied about this chamber all the time, but we told you truth about the other which is even in the same building" Of course, some users will not agree, propably Rich England with his great "ford factory" theory.

- the overall use of the whole building is unclear

Overall use is clear, showers and delousing chambers, exactly as the evidence say.


- the above only works if we reject all witness testimony

Problem with Majdanek is, that there are almost no testimonies. No problem reject testimony since this is the worst type of evidence, don´t let self to be tricked by some sympathy for "survivors", with this approach it would not be possible to investigate any crimes, you must cut emotions. Sounds horrible? Maybe, but this is necessary.You can´t accept some testimony because of emotions, or can you?

- there is good reason for the Nazis to be vague and secretive about what happened there

As you see from the camp plan and camp location, they were not vague or secret at all.

- there are a lot of missing Jews whose disappearance or where abouts is unaccounted for

There are lot of missing
peoples
whose disappearance or where abouts is unaccounted for, same as today, but this can´t lead to make unfounded conclusions.

- there is evidence of Jews arriving at the camp and then vanishing, which means something happened to them at the hands of the Nazi guards.

They died as died the others, this doesn´t mean, that they were murdered. This happened in every camps by all sides, but only Germans are blamed for gassings, this doesn´t make sense. All the evidence speak about deads which have nothing to do with gassing.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:28 am

Why the concern about lice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can imagine they are unpleasant, but not life threatening and considering the camp conditions with hard labour, lack of food, other diseases and high mortality, it does seem to be an odd issue to concentrate on.

Can you prove there was a lice problem with all arrivals at the camps?

Can you show a reason to spend so much money removing them?

Can you prove a gas chamber is the only or even best way of removing them?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:07 pm

Nessie wrote:Why the concern about lice?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can imagine they are unpleasant, but not life threatening and considering the camp conditions with hard labour, lack of food, other diseases and high mortality, it does seem to be an odd issue to concentrate on.

Lice carry epidemic typhus, so yes, they were big problem and not only "unpleasant" as today.

Can you prove there was a lice problem with all arrivals at the camps?

It doesn´t matter if all arrivals have lice or only one from 100, think logically, is not possible to examine everybody´s hair or cloth individually with magnifying glass, the easiest way is to delouse all..

Can you show a reason to spend so much money removing them?

Stop spreading of typhus.

Can you prove a gas chamber is the only or even best way of removing them?

No, the other good way is microwave (yes, you see well, microwave) delousing which was invented by Germans and also used. Other ways are hot steam or hot air, but they are less effective, the most effective way was to use hydrogen cyanide which is highly mobile and is able to reach lices and eggs in every fold of cloth. Why? Simple, because this way of delousing was the most used and I don´t see any reason why to use something which is not effective

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:11 pm

So the measures failed as there was still typhus at the camps, or is there a link between camps that had a gas chamber and camps that did not and typhus?
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Nessie wrote:So the measures failed as there was still typhus at the camps, or is there a link between camps that had a gas chamber and camps that did not and typhus?
The typhus was still there as other illnesses., but is big difference between tens of dead peoples in day and between hundreds, do you see the difference?

Nothing failed, without these delousing procedures, they could easily kill everybody in really cheap way without needs to build some chambers. Also don´t forget, there were lot of civil workers, they were responsible for carrying lices too, but how to control them, they could freely march throught the camp and out.

It doesn´t matter if some camp didn´t have gas chamber, clothing was of course send to the camp with delousing chamber, simple and logical, this is cheaper and logical than to build such a facitlity in every camp, don´t forget that there was lot of camps.

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:19 pm

Can you evidence clothing sent to another camp to clean?

Why was the clothing not burned?

Was it to be sold off like the gold and other valuables taken from the prisoners?

It still seems odd that if the chambers were not for humans and they were part of some sort of clothes cleaning and recycling project.

Using logic

- the Jews and others arriving at the camps had no idea where they were

- they were taken to washrooms and told to strip and their lice infected clothes would be cleaned. They had no choice as they were under armed guard and they may have been glad to get washed and out of lice infected clothes. But it also could have been a deception to get people into the gas chambers naked to make the disposal of bodies easier.

- either clothes or Jews and others were put into the gas chambers for cleaning or extermination. The Jews and others could also have gone into the gas chambers with their clothes on, a matter which I have not read about as it seems clear they were separated from their clothes.

- we cannot prove or fully refute either of the above as both are possible

- we do not have evidence of clothing having been cleaned in the gas chambers or dead bodies after being in the gas chambers, so there is a chance that either humans or clothes or even both went through the gas chambers, or nothing at all which seems odd.

- we have morgues and crematoriums that could be either for those who died of not being gassed (still horrific deaths by typhus, other disease, shooting, starving, suicide, over work) or being gassed. I have already suggested a use for the morgues as clothing stores and you could also burn clothes in the ovens, but why do that after cleaning them? And there is no evidence of that happening.

- we have evidence of clothing taken from Jews and others that still survive after the war, but many Jews and others that cannot be traced.

So do we have a killing or clothes cleaning operation on a scale that has never been seen before or after?

If you follow the denier/revisionist argument we have a clothes cleaning opweration, which frankly seems very odd and cannot be proved.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:35 pm

Nessie wrote:Can you evidence clothing sent to another camp to clean?

Pohl´s letter dated February 6, 1943 contain clothing and other property from Lublin (Majdanek) and Auschwitz, latter use is not specified at least to my knowledge, but this clothing was for sure deloused and not transported full of lices of course.

Why was the clothing not burned?

I already adressed it, when you burn clothing, your prisoners will be naked, simple. Is total nonsense to burn it and then look for newcloths since is easier to delouse it.

Was it to be sold off like the gold and other valuables taken from the prisoners?

I am not aware of solding of these property, since Soviets found lot of property for me is logical to assume that they stored it for some reason. Prisoners were also released from camps, is logical to receive property back.

It still seems odd that if the chambers were not for humans and they were part of some sort of clothes cleaning and recycling project.

There is nothing odd, some alleged homicidal gas chambers were used to delouse clothing for hygenic purposes and not for gassing of humans, simple. Do you think that penitentiaries dind´t delouse cloths?

Using logic

- the Jews and others arriving at the camps had no idea where they were

- they were taken to washrooms and told to strip and their lice infected clothes would be cleaned. They had no choice as they were under armed guard and they may have been glad to get washed and out of lice infected clothes. But it also could have been a deception to get people into the gas chambers naked to make the disposal of bodies easier.

Yes this story is official narrative how to trick peoples to go to gas chambers and easily refuted, since gas chambers could not be used for homicidal gassings according to revisionists, this story is logically false.

- either clothes or Jews and others were put into the gas chambers for cleaning or extermination. The Jews and others could also have gone into the gas chambers with their clothes on, a matter which I have not read about as it seems clear they were separated from their clothes.

- we cannot prove or fully refute either of the above as both are possible

Nonsense, the only possibility how to use the alleged chambers is for delousing, or showers and etc. I already said this. Your logic is still strange to me.

- we do not have evidence of clothing having been cleaned in the gas chambers or dead bodies after being in the gas chambers, so there is a chance that either humans or clothes or even both went through the gas chambers, or nothing at all which seems odd.

As I said, your logic is still strange to me, don´t know what you want to tell, propably - no gassing, no cloth delousing, the Germans built up some rooms and for some reason they used Zyklon B in them for nothing? This is what you want to tell me?.

- we have morgues and crematoriums that could be either for those who died of not being gassed (still horrific deaths by typhus, other disease, shooting, starving, suicide, over work) or being gassed. I have already suggested a use for the morgues as clothing stores and you could also burn clothes in the ovens, but why do that after cleaning them? And there is no evidence of that happening.

Wrong, these morgues couldn´t be used as homicidal gas chambers accroding to revisionists, so their use could be only innocent. Clothing storing was adressed in different thread about Krema II.

- we have evidence of clothing taken from Jews and others that still survive after the war, but many Jews and others that cannot be traced.

So do we have a killing or clothes cleaning operation on a scale that has never been seen before or after?

According to revisionists, no extermination. Wrong, today the cloths are desinfected too, but of course, lices are not so common and typhus as well.

If you follow the denier/revisionist argument we have a clothes cleaning opweration, which frankly seems very odd and cannot be proved.

I still don´t know what is odd about delousing of cloths, orthodox historians accepted it, revisionists accepted it, but you Nessie, you started new wave of holocaust revisionism - cloths delousing denial : )

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:14 pm

I have edited out the parts where I accept your answer

Bob wrote:
Why was the clothing not burned?

I already adressed it, when you burn clothing, your prisoners will be naked, simple. Is total nonsense to burn it and then look for newcloths since is easier to delouse it.

But were they not given prisone clothes to wear, I have seen images of that and in any case, delousing fits in with the logic of the Nazis covering up what they were doing and tricking the Jews to their deaths.

Was it to be sold off like the gold and other valuables taken from the prisoners?

I am not aware of solding of these property, since Soviets found lot of property for me is logical to assume that they stored it for some reason. Prisoners were also released from camps, is logical to receive property back.

Please evidence one Jew being released for a camp and being given his property back

It still seems odd that if the chambers were not for humans and they were part of some sort of clothes cleaning and recycling project.

There is nothing odd, some alleged homicidal gas chambers were used to delouse clothing for hygenic purposes and not for gassing of humans, simple. Do you think that penitentiaries dind´t delouse cloths?

No it is odd because what you are alleging is a clothes cleaning operation on a very large scale, which seems an odd thing to do during war due to the cost.

Using logic

- the Jews and others arriving at the camps had no idea where they were

- they were taken to washrooms and told to strip and their lice infected clothes would be cleaned. They had no choice as they were under armed guard and they may have been glad to get washed and out of lice infected clothes. But it also could have been a deception to get people into the gas chambers naked to make the disposal of bodies easier.

Yes this story is official narrative how to trick peoples to go to gas chambers and easily refuted, since gas chambers could not be used for homicidal gassings according to revisionists, this story is logically false.

Can you prove that a gas chamber cannot be used to kill humans?

- either clothes or Jews and others were put into the gas chambers for cleaning or extermination. The Jews and others could also have gone into the gas chambers with their clothes on, a matter which I have not read about as it seems clear they were separated from their clothes.

- we cannot prove or fully refute either of the above as both are possible

Nonsense, the only possibility how to use the alleged chambers is for delousing, or showers and etc. I already said this. Your logic is still strange to me.

Your logic seams strange to me :D

- we do not have evidence of clothing having been cleaned in the gas chambers or dead bodies after being in the gas chambers, so there is a chance that either humans or clothes or even both went through the gas chambers, or nothing at all which seems odd.

As I said, your logic is still strange to me, don´t know what you want to tell, propably - no gassing, no cloth delousing, the Germans built up some rooms and for some reason they used Zyklon B in them for nothing? This is what you want to tell me?.

That in the same way I cannot prove to your satisfaction that humans were gassed, using your same reasoning, you cannot prove to me that clothes were cleaned there. So the reasoning is faulty and we are missing something.

- we have morgues and crematoriums that could be either for those who died of not being gassed (still horrific deaths by typhus, other disease, shooting, starving, suicide, over work) or being gassed. I have already suggested a use for the morgues as clothing stores and you could also burn clothes in the ovens, but why do that after cleaning them? And there is no evidence of that happening.

Wrong, these morgues couldn´t be used as homicidal gas chambers accroding to revisionists, so their use could be only innocent. Clothing storing was adressed in different thread about Krema II.

Again, this shows how using your reasoning there is a fault, we cannot prove anything about the mortuary.

- we have evidence of clothing taken from Jews and others that still survive after the war, but many Jews and others that cannot be traced.

So do we have a killing or clothes cleaning operation on a scale that has never been seen before or after?

According to revisionists, no extermination. Wrong, today the cloths are desinfected too, but of course, lices are not so common and typhus as well.

So is there a revisionist explanation of what happened to the missing Jews, backed by evidence and logic?

If you follow the denier/revisionist argument we have a clothes cleaning operation, which frankly seems very odd and cannot be proved.

I still don´t know what is odd about delousing of cloths, orthodox historians accepted it, revisionists accepted it, but you Nessie, you started new wave of holocaust revisionism - cloths delousing denial : )
[/quote]

Not clothes cleaning denial, an excercise in showing you how by applying your demands for evidence, use of logic and by ignoring some evidence I can show you the faults in your argument.

If you add in the witness testimony, the evidence of a cover up by the Nazis and the missing Jews, logic tells us humans and not clothes went into the gas chambers.
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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:06 pm

Nessie wrote: But were they not given prisone clothes to wear, I have seen images of that and in any case, delousing fits in with the logic of the Nazis covering up what they were doing and tricking the Jews to their deaths.

They were given stripped uniforms, but they of course had other clothing as well:

http://www.clayandiron.com/news_image.j ... ressed.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/10/10/image ... _album.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www6.miami.edu/news/images/auschwitz_1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice, that they have cloths under uniform. Or do you think tha they would survive only in thin stripped uniform? Hardly. And as I said, released prisoners were hardly released in stripped uniforms.

What covering? What tricking? Official narrative speaks about tricking Jews to go to showers and not to delousing cyanide chambers, so what are you talking about?


Please evidence one Jew being released for a camp and being given his property back


Korherr Report
Sum all camps 36 943 - released. Are this number enough?

http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is logical that they got clothing back and were not released naked or in stripped uniform, if they received all property or it they they received exactly the same clothing, for this we will hardly find proof.

No it is odd because what you are alleging is a clothes cleaning operation on a very large scale, which seems an odd thing to do during war due to the cost.

Wrogn again, without delousing the spread of typhus would be extreme, and they surely didn´t want to kill their labour force during war. I miss what is hard to understand.

Using logic

Can you prove that a gas chamber cannot be used to kill humans?

Sure, did you forget chamber III in Majdanek? Or do you want other example? Chamber number IV?
Door opens into gas chamber.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9571/77828016.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Doors in this room are only wooden. Door on the picture don´t have lock and can be opened from inside.
Here is original glass window in this chamber.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Ma ... window.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, is possible to prove that gas chambers couldn´t be used for homicidal purposes and I only wonder that someone with eyes and brain need to proof for impossibility to gas peoples here.


Your logic seams strange to me :D

Don´t know what is strange, these chambers above could be used only as delousing chambers, if you have problem with this, sorry, but something is wrong with you and not with me.

That in the same way I cannot prove to your satisfaction that humans were gassed, using your same reasoning, you cannot prove to me that clothes were cleaned there. So the reasoning is faulty and we are missing something.

But you need to prove gassing since you accuse someone from crime, I don´t have to prove delousing, I am not accuser, delousing is not crime. Aside this, I proved you that these chambers are only delousing, but you refuse to admit that, obviously. You wanted plans, you got plans, you wanted photo, you got photos (Dachau, Birkenau - hot air hot steam), you got even quote from Pressac that almost all Zyklon B was used for delouisng, but still resuse to admit it which prove to me that you only want to "troll" and not to seriously discuss this issue.

You admited that you cannot prove gassings, nice one, this mean that crime did not happen since - innocent until proved guilty. There is no my "satisfaction", the evidence which I am looking for is to show me that gassing of peoples is possible in nazi gas chambers, I do not need necessarily photos and etc., just prove me that this was possible, are you able to prove this? Answer.

I was able to prove that delousing of cloths in cyanide gas chambers is easily possible and did happen and supported by strong proofs even from orthodox side, what about you Nessie? Can you do the same about homicidal gassing?


P.S. you inspired me to start new thread, thanks.

Again, this shows how using your reasoning there is a fault, we cannot prove anything about the mortuary.


Mortuary is mortuary, mortuary is used for what? Oh yes, for storing bodies. I provided you with proofs, you refuse to admit it. Do you have one single evidence that mortuary could not serve as storage for deceased prisoners as supported by evidence from me? Show me some, if you are not able to refute my theory, you failed. On the other side, I am easily able to refute your homicidal theory or cloth storage theory or other ridiculous theories. : )

So is there a revisionist explanation of what happened to the missing Jews, backed by evidence and logic?

Yes, of course. But this issue need really long answer. But in short, some didn´t return to their homes, some emigrated, some were killed during the war by all possible ways, some were stuck in Soviet union, and of course, the estimation of how many Jews actually lived in Europe were made from air.

Not clothes cleaning denial, an excercise in showing you how by applying your demands for evidence, use of logic and by ignoring some evidence I can show you the faults in your argument.

Wrong again Nessie, your problem is that you are not able to refute even one single argument, I am able and this is what I am doing with alleged evidence about gassing. Your tactic is only to pick something unimportant and say prove it to me! When you receive all possible evidence which match to one single conclusion without contradictions and logic errors, you still ignore it.


If you add in the witness testimony, the evidence of a cover up by the Nazis and the missing Jews, logic tells us humans and not clothes went into the gas chambers.

Nice example of faulty logic which can be easily refuted. What evidence of covering, all evidence speaks about not covering. Missing Jews? How do you know how many are missing and if they are missing? If someone miss, does it means that he was gassed? Nice logic.

Nessie, nevermind that you don´t have any single proof, basic problem is your total lack of logic

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Re: Gas Chambers as a means of cleaning clothes

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:34 pm

The images of gas chambers you liked to show one with a door than cannot be opened from inside and one with a window that has blue residue on the walls. So at some point there will have been other means of stopping the gas from escaping through the window and the door (or else where did the residue come from) and you have shown me nothing of how people could escape from those rooms.

Importantly you still cannot show evidence of clothes being cleaned in those rooms. You have shown me evidence of some clothes in a steam room which has a frame in it to take hangers, which has no apprent residue and clearly would not fit people in it.

In the same way I cannot produce a body that was in the room, you cannot produce any clothing that was in that room. In the same way I have no forensic evidence a body was in the room, you do not for clothes.

You show me pictures of people at concentartion camps wearing their won clothes and with others already in prison uniforms and some signs of other clothes, like a t shirt. But not their coats, trousers, jackets, hats that they came in.

The Korherr Report fails to show where the releases went to and it mentions clearly that internment numbers include people repeatedly interred. We know that Jews were moved from one camp to another. So show me the releass were not just relased from one camp to be interred in another.

Try this simple logic

Jews and others arrive at the camp, they are sorted into some who will work and are given prison clothes and some who are not seen again by the other prisoners in the camp. Where did they go?

You have failed to convince me the gas chambers were used for clothes and nothing else. You have failed to show me how a human could not have died in a gas chamber. You have failed to show me even one Jewish person who arrived at a camp, was stripped, his clothes cleaned, property taken off him and then later released to freedom away from any camp or ghetto with his clothes and property back again.

No matter what you think, you cannot prove it to my critical analysis or logic.

It is just not logical to have so many people go missing and for you to claim you know what happened at the camps without dealing with that matter.
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