Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Discussions
User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:15 pm

@Maryzilla - Nope. You are clearly too stupid to differentiate the part from the whole - or rather you try making one part to be the whole; no skin off my teeth.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:18 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:I, for one, am looking forward to David's new thread on the Treblinka labor camp. If only to see him explain that gravel was taken away from T I pebble by pebble on a cushioned pillow, each demanding it's own journey with it's own Locomotive, and the 1500 box cars filled with loot from lowly T II were pulled out of there in one fell (but probably very slow) swoop, and by, most likely, all the locomotives in Poland chipping in to help out.

The only problem, such a slow train would have impede the gilded pebble transports... :scratch:


David, are you sure the little guys weren't transported outta there with the brand new and snazzy Nazi UFOs?


(Please answer that question in your new thread. Thank you.)

Edit: I'm also looking forward to see Mary's ghost relocation to it.
Lol those trains do seem to reproduce like rabbits - and they're just as cute.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

The siding at Area II

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:54 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Was there a separate, dead end spur that went into Treblinka extermination camp? What is the length of this spur?
First thing, Matty, is that you need to learn the difference between a spur and a siding. Secondly, you need to realize that the siding didn't
"went into Treblinka extermination camp." You are lying. You keep repeating
this lie as if your babbling will keep people from looking at the aerial photographs
or Polish survey.

The siding was outside the Camp, outside any fence, and close to the Quarry Spur.
I am happy to help you learn more about the Treblinka Quarry Spur and labor
camp but you need to stop lying.


David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

Re: Recapping David the holocaust denier's arguments

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:04 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:David claims Treblinka II was a"transit camp" because
A Pathetic "recapping," Matty.
I am not claiming that Treb II was a transit camp.
We are off on an analysis of actual train records.
I raised questions about Believer claims that hundreds of thousands of
people went to Treblinka in a few weeks in huge trains
and
the total lack of records concerning the obvious (to any normal person)
large amount of rail traffic generated by Treblinka Labor Camp (and the
hired Polish workers) The traffic consisted of output from the huge Quarry and
timber operations.




Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: The siding at Area II

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:16 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: Yes or No? Was there a separate, dead end spur that went into Treblinka extermination camp? What is the length of this spur?
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: ..... you need to realize that the siding didn't "went into Treblinka extermination camp"
Here is the map of the dead end rail spur going through the gate into Treblinka Extermination camp.

How long is this spur?

Side spur Treblinka II.jpg
pinocchio.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

Re: Believers running in circles screaming.

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:16 am

Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
I don't think that Treb II was a transit camp.
It seems that there was NOT a platform on the rail siding.
See http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp37.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp36.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What the ARC people call a "rampart" was the earthen landing which
casts a shadow in the aerial photograph
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It also seems that the siding to Treb II was too short to serve long trains.
I have compared the length of the siding to the Bakery Building in the
September 1944 aerial photographs
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bmap8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Picture of the still standing Bakery building August 1944
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

Re: The siding at Area II

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:19 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: How long is this spur?
Hello Matty- Please read my last response.
You might also want to look at the Soviet photographs of the siding
and the aerial photographs which give a good idea of the actual length
of the siding.


Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Recapping David the holocaust denier's arguments

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:20 am

David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:We are off on an analysis of actual train records.
You refuse to read this exact information, set out over 8 pages in Arad's book because he is Jewish.

Are you still pretending that only 55 trains went to Treblinka II Extermination camp?
:D

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: The siding at Area II

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:31 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: How long is this spur, that goes through the gate into Treblinka II Extermination camp?
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote: Hello Matty- Please read my last response.
You have not answered my question previously. Previously, you directly lied and claimed only 6 to 8 wagons could fit, which was a complete fabrication.
Dopey the holocaust denier.jpg
Side spur Treblinka II.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Are you still pretending that only 55 trains went to Treblinka II Extermination camp?
Sigh. No, that is not what I said, Matty.
I wrote, "part of Krausnik's Treblinka figures are based on the number of trains (around 55) times a guess at the number of people on the train.

Matthew Ellard wrote: Previously, you directly lied and claimed only 6 to 8 wagons could fit, which was a complete fabrication.
The number of wagons that could fit on the siding is questionable.
I compared the length of the siding with the size of the Bakery building. Add an
engine and there is not much space at the earthen berm area.
I think that most "eye witnesses" noted that trains had to be broken down into
groups of 20 or so.


David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

To Nessie regarding Treblinka "platform."

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:12 pm

Hello Nessie-
There is an interesting analysis of the 1944 Soviet photographs of the rail siding at Treb II.

Take a look at
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... ure72.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To get an understanding of the length of the siding,
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... hyNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Believers running in circles screaming.

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:24 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
David wrote:The huge Quarry pit is the subject......
No it is not.
Hello Nessie- You are coming from the position that
Treblinka II had to have a huge platform and wasn't situated where
other trains were running.

That is why the Quarry is "the subject."
What if 3 trains a day served the Quarry? What would that mean?
What if there was no concrete platform at all at Treblinka II? What would that mean?


The subject is TII.
If 3 trains a day served the quarry there is plenty of time in the day to shunt trains in and out of TII.
No concrete platform means they get out onto the ground.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Believers running in circles screaming.

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:26 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
I don't think that Treb II was a transit camp.
.....
Good.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: To Nessie regarding Treblinka "platform."

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:29 pm

David wrote:Hello Nessie-
There is an interesting analysis of the 1944 Soviet photographs of the rail siding at Treb II.

Take a look at
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... ure72.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To get an understanding of the length of the siding,
Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... hyNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I do not see the point in this any more. It had a platform of sort and trains could be shunted there to unload people for gassing. It was a death camp.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Believers running in circles screaming.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:50 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
I don't think that Treb II was a transit camp.
It would seem that the OP has been answered. I'd say that the thread has reached its end - except David's viewpoint raises the nettlesome problem of what happened to about 300,000 Warsaw Jews and nearly 500,000 Jews from Radom district, the Balkans, Bialystok, and elsewhere.

If, as David claims, very, very few of them - 25,000 only - went to Treblnka, where did the rest of these people get sent.

I wonder if David has a view on this.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

David
Has More Than 5K Posts
Posts: 5006
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:04 am

Re: Believers running in c

Post by David » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:26 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
I don't think that Treb II was a transit camp.
It would seem that the OP has been answered. I'd say that the thread has reached its end - except David's viewpoint raises the nettlesome problem of what happened to about 300,000 Warsaw Jews and nearly 500,000 Jews from Radom, the Balkans, Bialystok, and elsewhere.

I wonder if David has a view on this.
I don't have a view on it.
I am arguing that it is clear that they were not all taken to Treblinka.


Besides the matter of 898,000 missing bodies we have other information.
The Soviet and aerial photographs and the Polish Survey show that the Germans left lots of evidence, including graves of hundreds of individuals and several
cremation pits. All of this evidence has been destroyed since August 1944
As an example of all the Believer generated confusion over the state of
Treb. 2 in September 1944.
"The first stumbling block was to overcome confusion caused by the erroneous identification of the bakery as a Ukrainian settler’s house, A number of accounts of the dissolution of Treblinka state that at the end the gas chambers were pulled down and the bricks used to construct a house for the Ukrainian guard recruited to serve as a farmer and guard. In fact, aerial photography shows conclusively that all but one of the buildings present in May of 1944, when Poland was still under German control, can be seen in Kurt Franz photos taken in 1942 and 1943. The exception is a large wooden building which seems to have been a barn and which was burned down after the Russians overran the region in August 1943.[sic]
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... mpNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Soviet photographs show that only a short siding and an earthen
berm were built at Treb II. That is inconsistent with claims that huge
numbers of arrivals, (and huge amount of loading of wagons with loot)
were planned.
Also inconsistent with claims of huge train convoys arriving at Treb II is
the evidence which shows that Treblinka Labor Camp generated lots of rail traffic
with its Quarry and logging operations. Quarry rail records also seem to have
disappeared and few if any Believer "eye witnesses" mention the embarrassing
fact.

It also turns out that Treb. 2 and the surrounding area were cleared of trees
in 1942 and 1943. This is exactly the opposite of Believer claims that the
Germans planted trees. The lumbering activities were probably carried out
by inmates of Treb. 1. Along with tearing out the Quarry rail spur and putting
in "symbolic" rail ties, the Poles have planted lots of trees around the Treb 2
camp to align current conditions with the Tales that Treb. 2 was "A tiny site deep in the forests."

The only document that supports claims of hundreds of thousands of
people going to Treblinka is the Höfle Telegram, which is actually a
British document. The relevant words in the document are
" T 71355," Anyway, that is a different discussion.

I am taking off on travels and will have limited opportunity to post in the
next month.
Season's Greetings, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all




User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Believers running in c

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:31 pm

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
The topic is was TII a transit camp. Explain why a transit camp would have a platform and capacity as small as you claim it does. Explain why it was situated where other trains were running to a quarry?
I don't think that Treb II was a transit camp.
It would seem that the OP has been answered. I'd say that the thread has reached its end - except David's viewpoint raises the nettlesome problem of what happened to about 300,000 Warsaw Jews and nearly 500,000 Jews from Radom, the Balkans, Bialystok, and elsewhere.

I wonder if David has a view on this.
I don't have a view on it.
I am arguing that it is clear that they were not all taken to Treblinka.


Besides the matter of 898,000 missing bodies we have other information.
The Soviet and aerial photographs and the Polish Survey show that the Germans left lots of evidence, including graves of hundreds of individuals and several
cremation pits. All of this evidence has been destroyed since August 1944
As an example of all the Believer generated confusion over the state of
Treb. 2 in September 1944.
"The first stumbling block was to overcome confusion caused by the erroneous identification of the bakery as a Ukrainian settler’s house, A number of accounts of the dissolution of Treblinka state that at the end the gas chambers were pulled down and the bricks used to construct a house for the Ukrainian guard recruited to serve as a farmer and guard. In fact, aerial photography shows conclusively that all but one of the buildings present in May of 1944, when Poland was still under German control, can be seen in Kurt Franz photos taken in 1942 and 1943. The exception is a large wooden building which seems to have been a barn and which was burned down after the Russians overran the region in August 1943.[sic]
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... mpNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Soviet photographs show that only a short siding and an earthen
berm were built at Treb II. That is inconsistent with claims that huge
numbers of arrivals, (and huge amount of loading of wagons with loot)
were planned.
Also inconsistent with claims of huge train convoys arriving at Treb II is
the evidence which shows that Treblinka Labor Camp generated lots of rail traffic
with its Quarry and logging operations. Quarry rail records also seem to have
disappeared and few if any Believer "eye witnesses" mention the embarrassing
fact.

It also turns out that Treb. 2 and the surrounding area were cleared of trees
in 1942 and 1943. This is exactly the opposite of Believer claims that the
Germans planted trees. The lumbering activities were probably carried out
by inmates of Treb. 1. Along with tearing out the Quarry rail spur and putting
in "symbolic" rail ties, the Poles have planted lots of trees around the Treb 2
camp to align current conditions with the Tales that Treb. 2 was "A tiny site deep in the forests."

The only document that supports claims of hundreds of thousands of
people going to Treblinka is the Höfle Telegram, which is actually a
British document. The relevant words in the document are
" T 71355," Anyway, that is a different discussion.

I am taking off on travels and will have limited opportunity to post in the
next month.
Season's Greetings, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all



Comedy gold, David, pure comedy, You repeat discredited nonsense and continue to refuse to source or quantify anything - disregard masses of evidence with a sniffle - and admit your ignorance. We will miss you - and hope you'll be back with more of your BS in due course.

Funny stuff . . .
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:44 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:Previously, you directly lied and claimed only 6 to 8 wagons could fit, which was a complete fabrication.
David, the lying holocaust denier wrote:The number of wagons that could fit on the siding is questionable.
No it is not. We have provided physical, documentary evidence and the testimony and ledgers of the actual Treblinka Station Master.

You, a holocaust denier, lied and made up a story.


David, would you like to tell me why Rudolf Emmerich and Wili Klinzman had to replace the normal train drivers to shunt the twenty carriages into Treblinka extermination camp? Can you explain why their shunting engine was held at Treblinka station to shunt these 20 boxcars of Jews into the extermination camp?
Dopey the holocaust denier.jpg
6 box cars x 6metres = 36 metres. Are you still really really really claiming this spur is only 36 metres long?
Treblinka platform line.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Believers running in c

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:50 pm

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:The only document that supports claims of hundreds of thousands of people going to Treblinka is the Telegram, which is actually a British document.
The document is named after it's author, SS Sturmbannführer Höfle. Are you now so deluded you think that Hofle was writing an British document in German language?

Your'e quite mad at the moment aren't you?
:D

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26494
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: To Nessie regarding Treblinka "platform."

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:27 am

David wrote:Hello Nessie-
There is an interesting analysis of the 1944 Soviet photographs of the rail siding at Treb II.

Take a look at
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... ure72.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To get an understanding of the length of the siding,

Treblinka was surprisingly small - approximately 700 by 1500 feet at the longest and widest parts
http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... hyNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
^Last modified: November, 2004
Copyright © 2003 Charles A. Bay.
.. http://www.shoah-treblinka.com/Website% ... hyNew.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/treblinka.html wrote:Treblinka Death Camp History

The camp was laid out in an irregular rectangle 400m by 600m...
^© 2010 H.E.A.R.T All Rights Reserved.

400m x 600m = 1312.34 x 1968.5 feet.

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeology/projects/holocaust-landscapes/genius-and-genocide/finding-treblinka/project-results/preliminary-results-of-the-survey-at-treblinka-ii-the-extermination-camp/ wrote: Preliminary Results of the Survey at Treblinka II (the extermination camp)
...
Through integrated field survey and the correlation of aerial images and LiDAR data, the current marked camp boundary has been shown to be incorrectly located. Thus, the camp appears to have been considerably larger than previously thought and this has implications for the existence of features relating to the Living Camp part of the site (part of which is currently located in a forested area outside of the marked camp boundary).
(emphasis mine)



Edit: I haven't found the exact date of Dr Sturdy Colls' survey, but we all know it's fairly recent.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Rails spur is more than half the length of Treblinka camp

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:05 am

scrmbldggs wrote: Take a look at.......
Damn, you're fast....
:D

I was about to set David up again, but you beat me to it. The length of the camp on this side indicates the length of the spur entering Treblinka II Extermination camp, which matches all the other evidence we have supplied David.

I was going to get David to explain how he didn't know this, yet claims he physically "inspected" Treblinka II.

We could have all had another big laugh at David's hilarious lies.

:D

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26494
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:19 am

It is hilarious. At approximately 600m/1968.5 feet length, that ramp looks pretty long. Even at 1500 feet total length, it's easily 650 feet/200m and 33 cars you mentioned earlier long. :lol:
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:13 pm

David has admitted he cannot prove TII was a transit camp. He is off on holiday. Time for a break.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:42 am

Nessie wrote:David has admitted he cannot prove TII was a transit camp. He is off on holiday. Time for a break.
A long break indeed - David seems to have evaporated. This post is for him, when he returns, or any other revisionist who has a viewpoint on this topic.

But . . . recall that in this thread we discussed rail records quite a bit, and I noted that we have a number of Fahrplananordnungen for Treblinka transports.

Recently, looking through a Yad Vashem file, YVA P.26, no. 126, for something else, I came across two interesting documents that relate to the discussion in this thread about deportation trains: Fahrplananordnung Nr 548 and Fahrplananordnung Nr 290.

I was wondering if any of the revisionists posting here - David, can you hear me? this one’s got your name on it! - could help us out by explaining what kind of documents these are, what the documents relate to, what they say, and - I can tell that they are both railway schedules (each is called a Fahrplananordnung) of some sort - what kind of cargo was being carried and where to, by what route, and with what particulars about how the railway equipment was used.

I am especially interested in the phrases: “und Leerzug zurück wie folgt,” "“Rückzug leer," and "Die Leerzüge sind von Treblinka zurückzuführen" - what do these phrases mean about the train schedules/trains in question? Also what is to be made of "Ab 6. August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres täglich noch ein Sonderzug mit Umsiedlern von Warschau Danz Bf nach Treblinka . . ."?

Thanks in advance. I know, of course, what I think these documents are saying, but my problem is that I can't for the life of me understand how revisionists make them work for any of the multiple cases they try spinning up about Treblinka.

first document:
Generaldirektion der Ostbahn
Krakau den 3.8.42

Fahrplananordnung Nr 548

Ab 6. August 1942 verkehrt bis auf weiteres täglich noch ein Sonderzug mit Umsiedlern von Warschau Danz Bf nach Treblinka und Leerzug zurück wie folgt:

1/ . P. Kr. 9085 /30,9/
Warschau Dann Bf - Malkinia - Treblinka

Warschau Dann Bf ab 12.25 im Plan Dg 91325 B
Warschau Marki an 12,42 12.59 “ “ “ “
Tluszcz 14.00 12.27 “ “ “ “
Malkinia 15.54 16.13 im Plan Dg 91368
Treblinka an 16.20

2./ Lp Kr 9086 /30,/11
Treblinka - Malkenia - Warschau Danz Bf

Treblinka ab 19,00 im Sonderplan 91325 B
Malkinia an 19,07 19.32 im Plan Dg 91342
Tluszcz 20.55 12.27 “ “ “ “
Warschau Marki 22.35 16.13 “ “ “ “8
Warschau Danz Bf an 23.19

Lok stellt: Bw Warschau Praga /für beide Züge/
Zug stellt: Bf Warschau Praga /für beide Züge/
Wagenzug bsetehende aus 1 C, 58 G und 1 C stellt Bf /Ga
Warschau Dann Bf.

[handwritten:]
Rückzug leer -- trotz viel längerer Aufenthalte --
z.B. Tluszcz statt 27-43 Min --
Fahrtzeit viel kürzer: statt 3 Std. 48 Min 
3 Std. 55 Min
4 Std. 19--
YVA P.26, no. 126, p 173

second document:
Telegrammbrief !
Fahrplananordnung Nr 290

An BA 1, MA, VA Z1, GA und Hbf Bialystok, Bialystok Industriebf,
Dienststellenvon Bialystok bis Malkinia, Bf Treblinka, OBD 33 Warschau
- nach besonderem Verteiler -

Zur Abbeförderung von Aussiedlern verkehren folgende Sonderzüge von
Bialystok nach Malkinia Ziel Treblinka.

Am 21,8.43 a) Pj 207, Bialystok ab 7,00 Plan 95828 Malkinia an 9.43
ab 9,50 Treblinka an 9,58.
Lp Pj 1207 (Wagenzug aus 207) Treblinka ab 11,36 Malkinia
an 11,43 ab 12,30 Plan 93894 Bialystok an 15,18.
b) Pj 208, Bialystok ab 12,00 Plan 91850 Malkinia an 14.43
ab 14,50 Treblinka an 14,58.
Lp Pj 1208,Treblinka ab 16,58 Malkinia an 17,05 ab 17,30
Plan 93869 Bialystok an 20,18.
Am 22.8.43 Pj 209 und Lp Pj 1209 wie vor unter a)
Pj 210 und Lp Pj 1210 wie vor unter b).
Am 23.8.43 Pj 211 und Lp Pj 1211 wie am 21.8 umter a).

Für jeden Zug sind 38 G für Insassen und zwei M für Begleiter zu stellen.
Die Leerzüge sind von Treblinka zurückzuführen. Bespannung und Zub für alle
Züge durch Bw, bezw. Hbf Bialystok. Zug: für Vollzüge 30,9, für Leerzüge
30,11.

Die Wagen sind rechtzeitig in Bialystok Industriebf bereitzustellen und nach Bialystok Hbf zum Anschluß an die angegebenen Pläne zu überführen.
Besteller: Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD in Bialystok.
YVA P.26, no. 126, p 180

(I apologize for the formatting - I didn't clutter it up with underlining, etc. - indentation doesn't work right in the forum software, so anyone wanting to review a copy of the document can use the Yad Vashem Archive location to do so. As noted, I am asking for revisionist assistance with these two documents, given David's argument in this thread that very few Personenwagen came to Treblinka, mainly cars for gravel, etc, and Maryzilla's avoidance of questions about where Jews from Poland and nearby regions went.)
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:11 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: A long break indeed - David seems to have evaporated.
It is odd. I thought they had to let him out after ten days under section 5150 of the California Welfare and Institutions Code. Eric Hunt should give him some tips.
:D

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:14 am

If Hunt gave him any advice, it was to keep his ass away from this subforum - Hunt's is still hurting from the ass-kicking he got when he came here.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4996
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 3:38 pm

If he comes back here I'm gonna have a field day on his sorry ass

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:58 pm

I expect to mainly ignore him. I cannot be bothered wasting my time with a stuck record.
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4996
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Jeff_36 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:15 pm

When Ellard exposed his lies re: Rosenberg it was priceless. That and SM shredding his list.

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:02 pm

Jeff_36 wrote:When Ellard exposed his lies re: Rosenberg it was priceless. That and SM shredding his list.
The steam room was classic.

I will add that Rosenberg most likely didn't even go to Treblinka, as Hunt thinks, but to Sobibór: my wager is that he was with Sasha Pechersky on the transport that went past Treblinka, witnessed by Zabecki (Pj 1025), and on to Sobibór; his arrival description sounds like Sobibór to me - and Rosenberg's deportation and camp arrival accounts are very similar to those of Pechersky. If this is correct, Hunt was doubly effed on Rosenberg.

Here is Zabecki's note on the August trains listing the Minsk transport:
The destruction within the camp was probably substantial. We heard that about 50% of the buildings were destroyed. But the action to annihilate the Jews did not stop. The transports were sent to other camps and they went via Treblinka in transit.
On 18 August 1943, a transport of Jews “PJ 201" (32 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the transport “PJ 203" (40 wagons) went to Lublin from Bialystok via Treblinka.
On 19 August, the last transport of Jews from Bialystok, “PJ 204" (39 wagons), arrived at Treblinka.
On 24 August, transport “PJ 209" (9 wagons) went to Lublin via Treblinka.
On 8 September, transport “PJ 211" (31 wagons) was sent to Lublin,
and on 17 September, transport “PJ 1025" (50 wagons) of Jews from Minsk Litewski was sent to Chelm (in fact to Sobibor).

All of this information is taken from records which I made and from which I created copies at the end of the war, copies which I still have to this day.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; bold added

I agree with Nessie that Hunt's one-trick mind is tiresome but I would welcome him back here.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4996
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Jeff_36 » Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:18 pm

250 years ago when this topic was new, bob brought up a quote from Pressac re a description of early construction at Belzec that was not, IMO sufficiently refuted. As no such descriptions exist for TII and Sobibor we can conclude that those places had no facilities that can be interpreted as being for delousing. However, is it possible, given the testimony of Kozack, that Belzec originally was a small scale delousing installation for jews assigned to forced labour at other GG camps that was converted to a killing center in early 1942 (presumably February) in time for the start of AR?

User avatar
Statistical Mechanic
Real Skeptic
Posts: 24733
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:19 pm
Custom Title: Dostawca - sciany tekstu
Location: still in Greater Tomainia

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:49 am

Bob is an avid reader and frenetic regurgitator of Mattogno, Graf, and Kues: the HC crew have discussed Kozak's furnace testimony, as used by Il Re di Convoluzione and his compagni, on pp 373-375 of their White Paper, making three points - first that the testimony is an uncorroborated outlier on this item, second that the testimony describes furnaces that do not match contemporary disinfestation methods, and third that the rest of the evidence does not support a delousing interpretation.
. . . all right we are two nations . . .

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4996
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Jeff_36 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:38 am

Kazak didn't seem to state that the furnace was connected to the water supply.... I have no idea where pressac got that. Other evidence is clear that by March of 1942 killing operations had commenced at Belzec. We have refuted any possible resettlement thesis. The mention of furnaces bugs me though, no one else mentioned it and it makes no sense, especially considering that Kazak was clear in describing the exterminatory activities at the camp.

What's your take?

User avatar
Nessie
Persistent Poster
Posts: 3070
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:41 pm

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:50 pm

Whilst we are on Belzec, what is its monument made of?

Image

And how does the monument related to the ash and bone at the site?
Audiophile, motorbiker and sceptic.

User avatar
Balsamo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1956
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Balsamo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:14 pm

As i told, one french site dedicated to Belzec, speaks about "Minerai de fer" which i think translate in "Iron Ore"... I have not search further, i confess as it is not that important.

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26494
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:47 pm

Treblinka has basalt/melted basalt on its memorial. Iron ore would make sense.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

ryu238
Regular Poster
Posts: 562
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:04 pm

Re: The hunter

Post by ryu238 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:10 am

I am sorry, but there is such a misquote here from David, I have to mention it
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Maryzilla, after distorting the argument for mass murder at Treblinka, and bracketing out evidence inconvenient to her beliefs, cannot give us a single piece of evidence that most of the Jews sent to Treblinka were sent elsewhere.
SM, you keep heehawing out the same stupidites that were
smashed long ago. There never were any "mass Graves" at Treblinka.
I am using the common sense Old School definition of "Mass Graves", the same
definition that Lukaszkiewicz used when he wrote, "There were no human remains found." and "The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today"
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... linka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You do understand what, "the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today" means don't you?

Any discussion of the Treblinka camp needs to start with the fact that
450 bodies and the partially cremated remains of a few thousand people were
all that was found.


Let's see what the site says:

"November 11, 1945
A series of test excavations were performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug. Undisturbed layers of earth were uncovered by this.
The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, partially still in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, is of a dark gray color and granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped here."
And the site goes on to explain these mass graves in detail...David, can you even read?

User avatar
scrmbldggs
Real Skeptic
Posts: 26494
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 7:55 am
Custom Title: something
Location: somewhere

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by scrmbldggs » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:42 am

Good find. Yeah, he does pull that kind of stuff quite often.

And I think that one also didn't go unnoticed by various posters and was dealt with to some extend.
.
Lard, save me from your followers.

Matthew Ellard
Obnoxious Weed
Posts: 30516
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:31 am
Custom Title: Big Beautiful Bouncy Skeptic

Re: The hunter

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:08 am

ryu238 wrote:I am sorry, but there is such a misquote here from David, I have to mention it.
You must assume that anything that David posts is a direct fabrication or taken out of context. You must assume that David will pretend to forget any fact you offer him, in his very next post.

He's a "loner" from south California and not very interesting. I used him as a tool, to simply post what were the current holocaust denier "themes of the month". When the cult started fading, he had to start repeating himself as there was no new denier material for him to post here.

User avatar
Jeff_36
Perpetual Poster
Posts: 4996
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:45 pm
Location: At the hundredth meridian, where the great plains begin

Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Jeff_36 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:24 pm

David is pure comedy.

When you said he was from SoCal it made so much sense LOL. I can picture him bombed out of his mind on Venice Beach right now, harassing young skateboarders and yelling about Dresden and "reserve areas"...