Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:17 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:
the Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today,
You edited out part of the quote on purpose because you are a liar.

"in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time."

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Crazy Matty. The Judge says there are no mass graves (with great probability)
That's mass graves "full of bodies". You lied and removed the part of the quote to hide that. You are very desperate at the moment aren't you? I'm enjoying this immensely as you are making it easy for me by lying so much.

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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:21 am

scrmbldggs wrote:Dude, you're really scared, aintcha?
David is using every lie in his repertoire of lies at the moment. He's obviously "freaking out" with fear.

Not long to go David. In six months or less it will all be over for holocaust deniers. You will have to try rejoin the Californian Klu Klux Klan again after they threw you out. However even they have rules about retard members......so good luck.

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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by scrmbldggs » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:34 am

Poor sap. Like a Tea-bagger, he doesn't see that he's a minion keeping others in business?
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:35 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Nessie wrote:Then there is no record, evidence or contemporary report of any Jew being transited on from TII.
Absolutes are troublesome when dealing with such large numbers and such complex events. Read about "Zelda Gordon" starting with this post, Nessie.

This information doesn't change our conclusion about what happened to the great number of Jews sent to Treblinka but rather forms a kind of parallel case to that of Jules Schelvis at Sobibor: that is, a minor exception to the rule.
As you said in the linked post

"..... what I want to know is how in your opinion the shipment of Gordon and 100 other young girls from Treblinka south to Majdanek and eventually, according to her ......., west to Bergen-Belsen proves a thing about resettlement of Jews to the East, as you also described the program of resettlement in the Wannsee thread."
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:53 am

David wrote:..........
Nessie, you have about everything wrong.
Layout
Treblinka II was NOT on its own railroad spur. It shared the
spur with Treblinka I and with the huge quarry operation. Most of the camp
was entirely in the open, in the middle of plowed fields. This can be seen in
the aerial photograph at http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigarie.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The part of the camp where Believers guess/claim that all the killing, burying, digging up, burning, and bone grinding went on is not only in the open but visible 250 meters
from the Malkenia Treblinka rail line and road!
Human Remains found
As to human remains found. About 250 bodies were found (the Soviets claimed
5,000) and a small amount of partially cremated remains.
It was the lack of significant amounts of human remains that led the Soviets to
claim that the bodies had been turned into paving material.

Transit OUT of Treblinka II

Like the propaganda lie that the "Germans destroyed all evidence" the
claim no person sent to Treblinka left alive has been the Big Proof of Believers.

In fact, thousands of people transited through Treblinka.
I just watched an excellent video of numerous interviewees recorded by the
Shoah Foundation showing just that.

That does not show I have everything wrong. Fact is TII is on a spur, it is hidden from the main line and it was made to look like a normal train station.

When was the photo you linked to taken? After the camp was demolished and a lot of the trees cut down?

Where is the evidence 250 bodies were found and at what time was that? How thorough was the search?

Where is the evidence thousands were transited through TII, not just Treblinka as a whole?
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:01 am

Lets keep David on track and discuss the evidence (or indeed lack of it) so he can back up the denier claim TII was a transit camp.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:Dude, you're really scared, aintcha?
David is using every lie in his repertoire of lies at the moment. He's obviously "freaking out" with fear.

Not long to go David. In six months or less it will all be over for holocaust deniers. You will have to try rejoin the Californian Klu Klux Klan again after they threw you out. However even they have rules about retard members......so good luck.

:D
Playing semantic games, lying, frantic, cherrypicking with abandon: that's what I see David doing here.

It is - what is the word I'm looking for - amusing? pathetic? baffling? - to watch David try processing Sturdy Colls' preliminary findings released this year by . . . wittering on with his discredited views of the Polish investigations - carried out, to state the obvious, over sixty years ago! I do think we see someone here in the throes of a crisis of cognition.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:07 am

David at home.JPG
David the lying holocaust denier wrote:
the Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today,
You edited out part of the quote on purpose because you are a liar.

"in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time."

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: Crazy Matty. The Judge says there are no mass graves (with great probability)
That's mass graves "full of bodies". You lied and removed the part of the quote to hide that. You are very desperate at the moment aren't you? I'm enjoying this immensely as you are making it easy for me by lying so much.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: You are very desperate at the moment aren't you?
He certainly doesn't respond to evidence he doesn't like, as many times as you and others repeat it, I will give him that.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Sandra » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:35 pm

I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?

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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:02 am

Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
Good luck getting an answer that does not rely on magic to work.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by scrmbldggs » Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:31 am

Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
You could start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_ ... ation_pits" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:18 am

Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.
Where did all the bodies go?
For the majority of the victims, they were executed in gas chambers and the buried in large burial pits at an isolated part of the Treblinka II camp. As Germany started to lose the war the bodies were dug up and cremated to hide the evidence. Victims that were gassed at this later period were cremated without burial. The human ash was thrown into the now empty burial pits. The remaining Germans planted grass to further hide the evidence.

After the Germans fled, local scavengers dug up some of these pits, sometimes using explosives. It is these photos of the human ash and bones left from this period, that covered 20,000 square metres, are the most horrific and evidential.
Treblinka human Ash .jpg
Treblinka human Ash closeup.jpg
Polish investigation at Treblinka .JPG
I assume you are a junior holocaust denier. Can you write brief paragraphs in your own words, detailing the major points that you think indicate Treblinka II (Extermination camp) was not an extermination camp?
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:17 am

Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
This thread is about evidencing TII as a transit camp. So where did all the people seen to enter TII go?
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Mary Q Contrary » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:42 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
This thread is about evidencing TII as a transit camp. So where did all the people seen to enter TII go?
Some of them got stuck behind the Iron Curtain after the war was over. Some of them went to Palestine. Some went to England. Some went to Australia. Some went to South America. Some went to the United States. If they survived the war, they went to the same places as all the other Jews who survived.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Nessie » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:49 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
This thread is about evidencing TII as a transit camp. So where did all the people seen to enter TII go?
Some of them got stuck behind the Iron Curtain after the war was over. Some of them went to Palestine. Some went to England. Some went to Australia. Some went to South America. Some went to the United States. If they survived the war, they went to the same places as all the other Jews who survived.
Name one and show the evidence.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:30 am

Nessie wrote:Name one and show the evidence.
He won't. He will "run away" as per usual.

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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:03 pm

Mary Q Contrary wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Sandra wrote:I have a question for those who say people were killed at Treblinka.

Where did all the bodies go?
This thread is about evidencing TII as a transit camp. So where did all the people seen to enter TII go?
Some of them got stuck behind the Iron Curtain after the war was over. Some of them went to Palestine. Some went to England. Some went to Australia. Some went to South America. Some went to the United States. If they survived the war, they went to the same places as all the other Jews who survived.
LOL

"If they survived . . ." It is a truism that the few who survived Treblinka went somewhere but it is also not what this thread is about. This thread is where deniers are asked to post proofs that TII functioned as a transit camp rather than as a place to make people not survive - the thread is not where deniers have been asked to pretend to make serious arguments by stating the obvious about the tiny remnant of the camp's survivors.

Try again - what happened to 100s of 1000s of Jews sent to TII and how do you know?
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Why was Treblinka shut down?

Post by David » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:54 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:This thread is where deniers are asked to post proofs that TII functioned as a transit camp rather than as a place to make people not survive

Hello SM. The first and most obvious "proof" is the time frame that
Treblinka Camp operated. It opened as an adjunct to Malkinia camp and
closed pretty much in Februrary 1943 when transports to the East were impossible.


Originally, the Believer propaganda was that Treblinka was a "primitive camp"
compared to Auschwitz and Majdanek.
At that time Believer claims were that no less than 2,500,000 people
(and as many as 4,000,000) were killed at "efficient Auschwitz,"
and no less that 1,400,000 killed at Modern Majdanek.

With the exploding of those Believer lies (Majdanek has dropped to 78,000 dead
and Auschwitz to about 1,000,000) the whole Nuremberg propaganda tale
collapses.
It turns out, given the current state of Believer theories on death rates,
that Treblinka was far more efficient than either Majdanek or Auschwitz
Supposedly 800,000-1,000,000 killed in 7 months!
Compare that to Majdanek's 78,000 in 4 years or Auschwitz (alleged)
1,000,000 in 4 1/2 years.

COSTS
And clearly a tiny fraction of the cost of Auschwitz.
The four Krema at Auschwitz alone cost a huge amount compared to the free burning pits! Perhaps around 1,000,000 Rmarks.

So the real question for the Believers is why was cheap efficient Treblinka
shut down right in the middle of the "Holocaust?"

The obvious answer is that it was shut down when transports east stopped.


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Re: Why was Treblinka shut down?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:00 am

David the lying holocaust denier wrote:Hello SM. The first and most obvious "proof" is the time frame that Treblinka Camp operated. It opened as an adjunct to Malkinia camp.
Malkinia was a camp for non German SS volunteers David. That's why it didn't have guard towers. Treblinka Extermination camp was for the extermination of Jews. That's why it had gas chambers.

Please show your "evidence" that Treblinka extermination camp was opened as an "adjunct" to Malkinia? You made this up, didn't you?

David the lying holocaust denier wrote: So the real question for the Believers is why was cheap efficient Treblinka shut down right in the middle of the "Holocaust?"
Because they were running out of Polish Jews to execute. Read Arad. Next Question.

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Re: Why was Treblinka shut down?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:51 am

David wrote:Hello SM. The first and most obvious "proof" is the time frame that
Treblinka Camp operated. It opened as an adjunct to Malkinia camp
This is not a proof; it is an unsubstantiated claim. It would be interesting to hear your theory about Malkinia, a camp that has so addled deniers, with the evidence you possess for your theory. Instead of having to read your empty assertions.
David wrote:closed pretty much in Februrary 1943 when transports to the East were impossible.
Except for the 11 transports sent to TII after February 1943 - northward from the Balkans, from Warsaw during the Jewish ghetto uprising, and southwest from the Bialystok area.
David wrote:Originally, the Believer propaganda was that Treblinka was a "primitive camp"compared to Auschwitz and Majdanek.
Whatever this means and whatever it refers to, it is not evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp.
David wrote:At that time Believer claims were that no less than 2,500,000 people (and as many as 4,000,000) were killed at "efficient Auschwitz,"
This is more irrelevant waffle, far from evidence for TII's being a transit camp; such inanity is clearly designed to divert attention from your having nothing to offer on the topic - evidence for TII's purpose.
David wrote:and no less that 1,400,000 killed at Modern Majdanek.
And another irrelevancy.
David wrote:With the exploding of those Believer lies (Majdanek has dropped to 78,000 dead and Auschwitz to about 1,000,000) the whole Nuremberg propaganda tale collapses.
I haven't mentioned Nuremberg nor was, to best of my knowledge, Treblinka dealt with in any depth at the IMT (Rajchman gave brief testimony IIRC, I think Smirnov entered some evidence about the camp into the trial and there were a couple of other mentions of the camp); the only court case involving Treblinka which I've mentioned was a German proceeding at Dusseldorf in 1965, which you keep ignoring. So I am not sure why you bring up Nuremberg.

In any event, piffle about the IMT is not evidence of TII's being used for transferring Jews eastward. We are seeking evidence, David, not your huffing and puffing. Please try staying on topic.
David wrote:It turns out, given the current state of Believer theories on death rates,
that Treblinka was far more efficient than either Majdanek or Auschwitz
Supposedly 800,000-1,000,000 killed in 7 months!
Compare that to Majdanek's 78,000 in 4 years or Auschwitz (alleged)
1,000,000 in 4 1/2 years.
So what? Leaving aside your misrepresentation of the mass murder phases at the various camps (the first gassings at Majdanek occurred in September 1942 and the camp was evacuated in July 1944; mass exterminations of Jews began at Auschwitz in winter 1942 and the gas chambers were shut down in October 1944), Majdanek and Auschwitz had purposes other than the extermination of Jews. Again, these details have nothing whatsoever to do with
proofs that TII functioned as a transit camp rather than as a place to make people not survive.
You are now full-on into diversionary nonsense - grasping for straws and spewing incoherent blether:
David wrote:COSTS
And clearly a tiny fraction of the cost of Auschwitz.
The four Krema at Auschwitz alone cost a huge amount compared to the free burning pits! Perhaps around 1,000,000 Rmarks.

So the real question for the Believers is why was cheap efficient Treblinka shut down right in the middle of the "Holocaust?"
Transports and extermination actions at Treblinka trailed off when the camp's major purpose - the extermination of the Jews of specific parts of Poland - had been achieved (similarly, Sobibor and Belzec were used to kill Jews mainly from other places). I already discussed this in a post I've linked to several times:
Like any institution, Treblinka had a history - it went through phases. The great liquidation actions - in which the Jews of Warsaw ghetto and the surrounding district and District Radom were wiped out - took place in 1942 into early 1943. In 1943 the use of the camp changed somewhat - it was used to kill off large groups of Jews from various places - notably the Grodno-Bialystok region and Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, many of these from Greece, deported through Skopje. By summer 1943 the Germans were cleaning-up the and covering-up - activity underway when the early August revolt occurred. Subsequent to the revolt the camp was in dissolution mode. Hunt mixes all this up - and throws in the idiot's observation, so nicely pointed out by Andrew E Mathis, that even when a institution is focused on a purpose, not all its activities will be the same. . . . As to Hunt’s persistent and somewhat silly question why a few trains came to Treblinka during the dissolution the camp after the revolt, he seems ignorant of the situation at the time. There were no transports arriving at all between the time of the revolt at Treblinka (2 August) and the Bialystok transports. In fact, there had been no transports during the summer of 1943 - that slow period marks off the large-scale killing operations from the end life of Treblinka (although even earlier in 1943 the killing had slowed down with the liquidation of the Jews of District Warsaw and District Radom). Also, the camp had been damaged in the rebellion . . .

(David, it is somewhat irritating to have to repeat so much that you fail to read, or grasp, from earlier posts.)
David wrote:The obvious answer is that it was shut down when transports east stopped.
The more obvious answer, and one that aligns with the evidence, is that killings at the camp diminished after its main purposes were achieved, that after 1942 the camp was used to exterminate some additional populations of Jews beyond the main initial targets, and that, subsequent to the revolt, and destruction of camp facilities, in August 1943, the camp was shut down after a few more transports and murder operations. Himmler, of course, had set the goal of clearing the General-Gouvernement of Jews by the end of 1942, having, for example, told Friedrich-Wilhelm Krieger, HSSPF in the General-Gouvernement, to be sure that this was "accomplished by 31 December 1942." (Longerich, Heinrich Himmler, page 583) The goal was not fully met, but as Matthew just told you, the Germans were very successful in killing Polish Jews during 1942 - and Treblinka's main goals had been met by early 1943.

(Note: It might be interesting for David to show us how transports from the Balkans or Bialystok/Grodno to Treblinka were "transports east.")

David, as I suggested to Mary:
Try again - what happened to 100s of 1000s of Jews sent to TII and how do you know?
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Treblinka shut down in Middle of Holocaust?

Post by David » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:10 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote: So the real question for the Believers is why was cheap efficient Treblinka shut down right in the middle of the "Holocaust?"
Transports and extermination actions at Treblinka trailed off when the camp's major purpose - the extermination of the Jews of specific parts of Poland - had been achieved . In 1943 the use of the camp changed somewhat - it was used to kill off large groups of Jews from various places - notably the Grodno-Bialystok region and Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, many of these from Greece, deported through Skopje.

Hello SM- It sounds like you are ignoring all the Nuremberg evidence
about the evolution of plans to mass murder all European Jews and coming up with a new theory about Treblinka's "major purpose." But then you immediately stumble;
"the use of the camp changed somewhat." Yes.
But then you ignore the very facts you post.
Do you think the weasel word "somewhat" preserves your unusual
theory that Treblinka was just for "Jews of specific parts of Poland?"

May I ask the obvious question on your "theory?" What was the "specific part of
Poland" to which you refer?
Why just Jews? Have you dropped claims that the Nazis killed Roma and Slavs?
Why were "large groups of Jews from various places" sent there in 1943?
Who made these important decisions?
Who decided to use Treblinka II for "large groups of Jews from various places"
and then decided to shut the camp down?
And, if, as you claim, a super-secret decision was made (by someone) to shut the camp down and "hide the evidence" why were thousands of more people sent to the Camp
in 1943 to complicate the process?

I compliment you and Dr. Mathis on your attempt to "explain away" the obvious problem of why Treblinka was shut down in the middle of the Holocaust. But your "theory" makes no sense and is contradicted by the evidence.

So, dixit you Believers, Treblinka was an amazingly fast, efficient, cheap way to kill.
It was "hidden" in a remote area of Poland. It was vastly "better" than either Auschwitz or Majdanek for a program of mass murder. It could also be used to select slave workers (as Eric Hunt has shown and you have even used as an "explanation") and even had an adjunct slave labor camp.
But, just as the resettlement transports stopped, the Camp was abandoned.






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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:49 pm

David, sometimes I can’t tell whether you’re trying to pull our collective leg. You ask so many basic questions in your post, about what anyone interested in this history would be expected to know. Do you really not have thoughts about such basic points? Also, you scramble things so badly - is that your intent? Ok, let's get to it:
David wrote:It sounds like you are ignoring all the Nuremberg evidence about the evolution of plans to mass murder all European Jews
Could you be specific about what you're referring to? "Nuremberg" trials consisted of the large major war criminals trial (IMT) and the 12 subsequent trials held by the US (NMT). Out of all these proceedings, and masses of evidence, I am not sure what you have in mind, and I’m certainly in the dark as to how you think the Nuremberg trials characterized the evolution of Nazi plans for mass murder. Please explain exactly what evidence I'm supposedly ignoring and what it is about the evolution of Judenpolitik I’m not taking into account. 

This said, I don't believe that the last word on the Holocaust came at Nuremberg - not at any of the proceedings.
David wrote:coming up with a new theory about Treblinka's "major purpose."  
 
This is not new, David. Examine the transport lists, put those together statements of Himmler and witness testimony. You will find that my earlier post, quoted above, gives an accurate if brief synopsis of the phases of the camp. You will find Arad (see below) describing the phases of murder at Treblinka in roughly the same terms I did - back in the 1980s.
David wrote:But then you immediately stumble;
"the use of the camp changed somewhat."    Yes.
 But then you ignore the very facts you post. Do you think the weasel word "somewhat" preserves your unusual  theory that Treblinka was just for "Jews of specific parts of Poland?"
That is distinctly not what I wrote, as you well know:
the camp's major purpose
is what I wrote about. How does a "major purpose" turn into "just" and thus into a single purpose, to the exclusion of all other uses? It is pig ignorant to think that because Treblinka "served" mainly districts Warsaw and Radom the camp could not also murder Jews from other places? Do you deny that the Jews from Warsaw and Radom districts were sent en masse to Treblinka? And that the regions from which Jews were sent to the camp changed as the transports slowed down in 1943?

I also wrote that
Transports and extermination actions at Treblinka trailed off
by end of 1942/early 1943 - and that
after 1942 the camp was used to exterminate some additional populations of Jews beyond the main initial targets.
None of this argument is weaseling - and all of it conforms to the evidence. Nor is any of it "unique": it simply explains that the camp evolved through phases, with the kinds of shifts I outlined - and as the record of the origins and timing of different transports shows.
David wrote:May I ask the obvious question on your "theory?"   What was the "specific part of
Poland" to which you refer?
Can you not figgin' read? This is what I posted earlier and quoted above:
The great liquidation actions - in which the Jews of Warsaw ghetto and the surrounding district and District Radom were wiped out - took place in 1942 into early 1943. In 1943 the use of the camp changed somewhat - it was used to kill off large groups of Jews from various places - notably the Grodno-Bialystok region and Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, many of these from Greece, deported through Skopje.
Continuing with your questions . . .
David wrote:Why just Jews?   Have you dropped claims that the Nazis killed Roma and Slavs?
No, I was focused on Treblinka in my post and on the largest and primary target of the camp - that is, Jews - and also I was focused on the topic of this thread, whether Treblinka was used to resettle or murder the Jewish population. I didn't post a complete and detailed history of the camp. Roma were certainly murdered at Treblinka as well as Jews. Slavs were murdered in great numbers by the Nazis but not a great many of them in the AR camps.
David wrote:Why were  "large groups of Jews from various places" sent there in 1943?
Because the camp was still functioning and, to continue the extermination of the Jews, some groups were sent to Treblinka; other groups were sent to different camps and some Jews were murdered in situ. What is really interesting is how you reveal time and again, as Matthew keeps pointing out, your almost complete ignorance of the research on the topics and individuals you soap-box about: in this case, you really should force yourself to read Arad's book, as pages 125-150, where many of your questions are answered. 
David wrote:Who made these important decisions?
Who decided to use Treblinka II for "large groups of Jews from various places" and then decided to shut the camp down?
Again, read Arad’s book, the pages I cited above.
David wrote:And, if, as you claim, a super-secret decision was made (by someone) to shut the camp down and "hide the evidence"  why were thousands of more people sent to the Camp
in  1943 to complicate the process?
Since I didn't make this argument, and I don't even know what you're trying to say, I can't give you an answer. Thousands more Jews were not sent to the camp after it was shut down. If you re-state this question, perhaps I can answer.
David wrote:I compliment you and Dr. Mathis on your attempt to "explain away"  the obvious problem of why Treblinka was shut down in the middle of the Holocaust.  But your "theory" makes no sense and is contradicted by the evidence.  
LOL above you asked why Treblinka would be used to kill large numbers of Jews from various places; now you're incredulous that the camp was not used to kill Jews from everywhere in Europe.

The killing indeed continued without Treblinka. You seem to labor under the misapprehension that the murder of the Jews was one undifferentiated blob of a program - without phases, with no structure, and without roles and functions. But the genocide was carried out differently to that. It was different in fall 1941 to fall 1944. It differed from the Baltics to the Transnistria. For our purposes, it is important to recognize that Aktion Reinhard was under the authority of Odilo Globocnik, SS and Police Leader for the Lublin district in the General-Gouvernement; Globocnik won himself the remit of cleansing the General-Gouvernement of Jews and he established the AR camps to do so (Jews in areas “served” by the AR camps - e.g., in the GG, Biaystok, and other districts - were also killed by Nazi violence, many through shootings during roundups; Jews died of starvation and related diseases in the regions’ ghettos). Globocnik's mission was to clean out the GG of Jews and to support as well the larger European murder program as he could. That the AR camps handled other tasks - that is, the murder of Jews from some other areas, killings of Roma, and so on - is not in contradiction to Globocnik’s main goal; It makes perfect sense, contrary to your musings, for camps designed mainly to kill Jews from the GG to carry out other tasks for which they had the capability and capacity, while they were still operating. This is not only what happened, it is logical.

If the Aktion Reinhard camps were controlled by Globocnik (who was responsible to Himmler) and meant to destroy the Jews mainly in the GG, there were other component, regional parts of the overall genocide: for example, mobile police killing units - the Einsatzgruppen among them and under control of the RSHA - murdered Jews in the Baltics, Belorussia, parts of the Ukraine, and regions of the Crimea and Caucasus; in the Warthegau, and under the authorities there, a murder camp utilizing different techniques to those of the AR camps was established at Chelmno, to cleanse of Jews the part of Poland known as the Warthegau. The Auschwitz-Birkenau complex fell under still other authority - Department D of the WVHA; the complex came to play a major role in the extermination of Jews from across Europe but had many other functions as well. Majdanek was unique in that it was administered by the KL inspectorate but also under Globocnik’s close control (the camp having been established by Globocnik on Himmler’s order); Majdanek; the camp was in part a KL to help the SS exert its authority in the region but also a site of forced labor as well as used for storage of goods stolen from victims of the final solution. And so on.

At any rate, it is important not to jumble together these structural elements of the final solution as you appear to be doing; although the parts and pieces were related, there were, as we can see, functional, administrative, and other differences among them.

Finally, approximately 1.5 million Jews lived in the General-Gouvernement in 1939 (Gutman, The Jews of Warsaw, 1939-1943, page 13); by early 1943 only a quarter million Jews remained, working as slave laborers, in the GG, Himmler’s goal of complete removal of the Jews by the end of 1942 nearly realized (by 1944, most of the slave laborers had been liquidated - in operations like Aktion Erntefest - http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 205722.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
 
David wrote:So, dixit you Believers, Treblinka was an amazingly fast, efficient, cheap way to kill.
It was "hidden" in a remote area of Poland. It was vastly "better" than either Auschwitz or Majdanek for a program of mass murder. It could also be used to select slave workers (as Eric Hunt has shown and you have even used as an "explanation") and even had an adjunct slave labor camp.  
A very small number of people were selected from TII for labor - the only documented cases I know of coming from 1943, after the liquidation of Warsaw ghetto and mass murder of Radom district Jews were completed; Treblinka was never a major or even significant source of slave labor. TI was scarcely reliant on TII its labor supply, nor was Majdanek. The AR camps were unlike the Auschwitz-Birkenau-Monowitz complex in this regard.
David wrote:But, just as the resettlement transports stopped, the Camp was abandoned.
No, so-called resettlement transports went to other camps after the AR camps were shut down, notably to Auschwitz-Birkenau.

David, please remember that this thread isn't where we lay out the case that Treblinka was an extermination center; I confess that in answering your questions, I've followed you off topic - this is where you are supposed to lay out the case that Treblinka was a transit camp. Do you have any evidence for this proposition - or will you continue to speculate, engage in coulda woulda shoulda, and play 20 questions?
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by David » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:57 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:coming up with a new theory about Treblinka's "major purpose."  
 
This is not new, David. Examine the transport lists, put those together statements of Himmler and witness testimony. You will find that my earlier post, quoted above, gives an accurate if brief synopsis of the phases of the camp. You will find Arad (see below) describing the phases of murder at Treblinka in roughly the same terms I did - back in the 1980s.
Have you even bothered to look at the transportation list? Take a look just at October 1942 to see how many transports came from outside of Poland.
October 5, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 8, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 15, 1942 Gozdowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 4,000 Wierzbnik, German Reich
October 15, 1942 3,300 Ciechanowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 19, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 22, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 31, 1942 800 Ujazd, German Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The transport facts blow your theory of a "special use" for Treblinka a part.

Which leaves you unable to explain why a(n allegedly) fast, efficient, secret, cheap
Extermination Factory was shut down in the middle of the Holocaust.

Can you do any better with your "statements of Himmler" claim?


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Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:30 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: That is distinctly not what I wrote, as you well know:
the camp's major purpose
is what I wrote about. How does a "major purpose" turn into "just" and thus into a single purpose, to the exclusion of all other uses? It is pig ignorant to think that because Treblinka "served" mainly districts Warsaw and Radom the camp could not also murder Jews from other places?
None of this argument is weaseling -
Gawd. Your claim is Treblinka was shut down in Summer of 1943 " when the camp's major purpose - the extermination of the Jews of specific parts of Poland - had been achieved .
Then you go off on "institutional history", etc. etc. etc.
You miss that (dixit Believer scholars) transports went through Treblinka from many other places in early 1943. And I have just shown some more "inconvenient facts"
for your "theory" relating to transports in October 1942.

Instead of just admitting that the facts prove your "theory" wrong, you go
off on a rant supporting exactly what I am saying…Treblinka was not a "special use"
Factory of Death but could be and (supposedly) was used to kill people from all over.
Yes… we all get it…it is obvious. It contradicts your "theory."


That just brings you back to my original question…

Why was a more efficient, secret, FREE, flexible Factory of Death (Treblinka) abandoned right in the Middle of the Holocaust in favor of a much more expensive, slower, more public places like Majdanek and Auschwitz?

The abandonment of Treblinka makes no sense except in light of the fact that
resettlements further East stopped in Summer 1943.


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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:31 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:coming up with a new theory about Treblinka's "major purpose."  
 
This is not new, David. Examine the transport lists, put those together statements of Himmler and witness testimony. You will find that my earlier post, quoted above, gives an accurate if brief synopsis of the phases of the camp. You will find Arad (see below) describing the phases of murder at Treblinka in roughly the same terms I did - back in the 1980s.
Have you even bothered to look at the transportation list? Take a look just at October 1942 to see how many transports came from outside of Poland.
October 5, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 8, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 15, 1942 Gozdowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 4,000 Wierzbnik, German Reich
October 15, 1942 3,300 Ciechanowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 19, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 22, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 31, 1942 800 Ujazd, German Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The transport facts blow your theory of a "special use" for Treblinka a part.

Which leaves you unable to explain why a(n allegedly) fast, efficient, secret, cheap
Extermination Factory was shut down in the middle of the Holocaust.

Can you do any better with your "statements of Himmler" claim?

LOL
Of course I got my "theory" from the transport lists.

So here you list, in the midst of my accurate and appropriately qualified statements about the main thrust of the deportations, 10 transports carrying < 18,000 Jews to Treblinka. During this time, the transport list on Wikipedia shows the following:

1 Wednesday 22-Jul-42 6,500 Warsaw Ghetto
2 Thursday 23-Jul-42 7,300 Warsaw
3 Friday 24-Jul-42 7,400 Warsaw
4 Saturday 25-Jul-42 7,530 Warsaw
5 Sunday 26-Jul-42 6,400 Warsaw
6 Monday 27-Jul-42 6,320 Warsaw
7 Tuesday 28-Jul-42 5,020 Warsaw
8 Wednesday 29-Jul-42 5,480 Warsaw
9 Thursday 30-Jul-42 6,430 Warsaw
10 Friday 31-Jul-42 6,756 Warsaw
11 Saturday 1-Aug-42 6,220 Warsaw
12 Sunday 2-Aug-42 6,276 Warsaw
13 Monday 3-Aug-42 6,458 Warsaw
14 Tuesday 4-Aug-42 6,568 Warsaw
15 Wednesday 5-Aug-42 6,623 Warsaw
15 Wednesday 5-Aug-42 30,000 Radom Ghetto
16 Thursday 6-Aug-42 10,085 Warsaw
17 Friday 7-Aug-42 10,672 Warsaw
18 Saturday 8-Aug-42 7,304 Warsaw
19 Sunday 9-Aug-42 6,292 Warsaw
20 Monday 10-Aug-42 2,158 Warsaw
21 Tuesday 11-Aug-42 7,725 Warsaw
22 Wednesday 12-Aug-42 4,688 Warsaw
23 Thursday 13-Aug-42 4,313 Warsaw
24 Friday 14-Aug-42 5,168 Warsaw
25 Saturday 15-Aug-42 3,633 Warsaw
26 Sunday 16-Aug-42 4,095 Warsaw
27 Monday 17-Aug-42 4,160 Warsaw
28 Tuesday 18-Aug-42 3,926 Warsaw
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 4,000 Warsaw
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 6,500 Falenica
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 7,000 Otwock
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 1,800 Rembertów
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 3,000 Jadwisin
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 3,000 Radzymin
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 2,200 Wołomin
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 700 Jadów
29 Wednesday 19-Aug-42 5,500 Parczew
30 Thursday 20-Aug-42 4,000 Warsaw
30 Thursday 20-Aug-42 21,000 Kielce
31 Friday 21-Aug-42 3,000 Warsaw
31 Friday 21-Aug-42 6,120 Mińsk Mazowiecki Ghetto closure
32 Saturday 22-Aug-42 3,000 Warsaw
32 Saturday 22-Aug-42 5,000 Siedlce
32 Saturday 22-Aug-42 3,500 Łosice
32 Saturday 22-Aug-42 3,800 Mordy
33 Sunday 23-Aug-42 3,000 Warsaw
34 Monday 24-Aug-42 3,000 Warsaw
35 Tuesday 25-Aug-42 3,002 Warsaw
35 Tuesday 25-Aug-42 11,000 Międzyrzec Podlaski Ghetto
36 Wednesday 26-Aug-42 3,000 Warsaw
37 Thursday 27-Aug-42 2,454 Warsaw
38 Friday 28-Aug-42 Unknown Łuków
44 Thursday 3-Sep-42 4,609 Warsaw
45 Friday 4-Sep-42 1,669 Warsaw
47 Sunday 6-Sep-42 3,634 Warsaw
48 Monday 7-Sep-42 6,840 Warsaw
49 Tuesday 8-Sep-42 13,596 Warsaw
50 Wednesday 9-Sep-42 6,616 Warsaw
50 Wednesday 9-Sep-42 Unknown Częstochowa Ghetto
51 Thursday 10-Sep-42 5,199 Warsaw
52 Friday 11-Sep-42 5,000 Warsaw
53 Saturday 12-Sep-42 4,806 Warsaw
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 6,000 Kałuszyn
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 1,000 Kołbiel
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 1,000 Mrozy/Kuflew
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 700 Siennica
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 700 Stanisławów
56 Tuesday 15-Sep-42 1,000? Gniewoszów HMM
57 Wednesday 16-Sep-42 6,000 Jędrzejów
57 Wednesday 16-Sep-42 1,000 Sędziszów
57 Wednesday 16-Sep-42 1,500 Szczekociny
57 Wednesday 16-Sep-42 5,000 Włoszczowa
57 Wednesday 16-Sep-42 3,000 Wodzisław
62 Monday 21-Sep-42 2,196 Warsaw
62 Monday 21-Sep-42 2,500 Skarżysko-Kamienna
62 Monday 21-Sep-42 4,000 Suchedniów
62 Monday 21-Sep-42 sums to 40,000 Częstochowa Ghetto
63 Tuesday 22-Sep-42 5,800 Sokołów Podlaski
63 Tuesday 22-Sep-42 8,300 Węgrów
63 Tuesday 22-Sep-42 1,100 Kosów Lacki
63 Tuesday 22-Sep-42 1,100 Sterdyń
63 Tuesday 22-Sep-42 2,000 Stoczek
64 Wednesday 23-Sep-42 10,000 Szydłowiec
67 Saturday 26-Sep-42 5,000 Siedlce
67 Saturday 26-Sep-42 4,800 Biała Podlaska
68 Sunday 27-Sep-42 1,240 Łaskarzew
68 Sunday 27-Sep-42 13,000 Kozienice
70 Tuesday 29-Sep-42 10,000? Zwoleń HMM
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 2,000 Busko-Zdrój
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 8,000 Chmielnik
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 4,000 Nowy Korczyn
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 3,000 Pacanów
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 3,000 Pińczów
72 Thursday 1-Oct-42 2,000 Radzyń
73 Friday 2-Oct-42 3,440 Parysów
73 Friday 2-Oct-42 3,680 Sobienie-Jeziory
73 Friday 2-Oct-42 1,640 Sobolew
73 Friday 2-Oct-42 10,000 Żelechów
75 Sunday 4-Oct-42 continuing Częstochowa Ghetto
76 Monday 5-Oct-42 7,000 Łuków
76 Monday 5-Oct-42 1,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
76 Monday 5-Oct-42 continuing Częstochowa Ghetto
77 Tuesday 6-Oct-42 800 Żarki
77 Tuesday 6-Oct-42 Unknown Międzyrzec Podlaski Ghetto
78 Wednesday 7-Oct-42 1,600 Koniecpol
78 Wednesday 7-Oct-42 2,000 Łagów
79 Thursday 8-Oct-42 1,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
81 Saturday 10-Oct-42 14,000 Radomsko
82 Sunday 11-Oct-42 11,000 Ostrowiec Świętokrzyski
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 22,000 Piotrków Ghetto
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 1,500 Gozdowice, German Reich
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 500 Kamieńsk
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 2,000 Przygłów
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 1,500 Sulejów
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 4,500 Starachowice
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 4,000 Chotcza Nowa
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 600 Ciepielów
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 2,000 Iłża
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 3,000 Lipsko
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 2,000 Sienno
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 7,000 Tarłów
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 4,000 Wierzbnik, German Reich
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 1,600 Iwaniska
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 3,300 Ciechanowice, German Reich
86 Thursday 15-Oct-42 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
90 Monday 19-Oct-42 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
91 Tuesday 20-Oct-42 6,500 Opatów
92 Wednesday 21-Oct-42
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 15,000 Tomaszów Mazowiecki
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 4,000 Biała Rawska
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 2,000 Orszewice
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 3,000 Koluszki
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 3,000 Nowe Miasto nad Pilicą
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 3,000 Opoczno
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 4,000 Przysucha
93 Thursday 22-Oct-42 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
96 Sunday 25-Oct-42 500 Osiek
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 4,000 Rawa Mazowiecka
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 2,000 Żarnów
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 800 Ujazd, German Reich
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 900 Ćmielów
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 500 Kunów
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 1,600 Koprzywnica
102 Saturday 31-Oct-42 4,500 Ożarów
104 Monday 2-Nov-42 4,330 Siemiatycze
105 Tuesday 3-Nov-42 9,000 Końskie
105 Tuesday 3-Nov-42 1,000 Gowarczów
105 Tuesday 3-Nov-42 4,000 Radoszyce
107 Thursday 5-Nov-42 5,000 Stopnica
109 Saturday 7-Nov-42 6,000 Staszów
109 Saturday 7-Nov-42 3,000 Łuków
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,300 Goniądz
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,200 Trzcianne
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,000 Augustów
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,500 Grajewo
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 600 Rajgród
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,500 Szczuczyn
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 500 Druskininkai, now Lithuania
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,000 Jeziory
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,500 Lunna
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,000 Ostrynka
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Porzecze
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 3,000 Skidal
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,000 Sapotskin, now Belarus
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Dąbrowa Białostocka
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 2,500 Indura
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 950 Janów
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 5,000 Krynki
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Kuźnica
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Korycin
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 500 Odelsk
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 350 Sidra
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 8,000 Sokółka
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 5,100 Suchowola
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,500 Grodno Ghetto, now Belarus
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 850 Jałówka
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 600 Lyskow
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 350 Mosty
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Porozow
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,000 Ros
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 3,000 Różana
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 3,000 Svislach, now Belarus
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 7,000 Vawkavysk, now Belarus
112 Tuesday 10-Nov-42 1,500 Wolfa
117 Sunday 15-Nov-42 1,000 Gniewoszów
122 Friday 20-Nov-42 40 cars Biala Podlaska
123 Saturday 21-Nov-42 40 cars Bialystok
124 Sunday 22-Nov-42 40 cars Bialystok
126 Tuesday 24-Nov-42 40 cars Grodno
132 Monday 30-Nov-42 1,700 Siedlce

It is years since I added up regional and city totals. Would you be so kind as to compare your 10 transports with fewer than 18,000 deportees to the totals for Warsaw alone, and then for Poland as a whole? (To help you get started, you will notice that just two days of transports from Warsaw carried more victims to Treblinka than all your selectively posted transports . . . )
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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:56 am

David wrote:Your claim is Treblinka was shut down in Summer of 1943
The last transport to Treblinka was in August 1943; and, as I wrote earlier, in a post you keep ignoring, Treblinka was finally shut down in fall 1943:
Globocnik was sent packing to Trieste (in September), taking Stangl along, at which time Kurt Franz replaced Stangl as commandant of the camp. . . . During August, the Germans attempted to use Treblinka in the liquidation of Bialystok ghetto. I am not aware of detailed documentation for events inside the camp at this time; my sense is that the Germans found that the now-undermanned camp, which had suffered significant damage, was no longer suitable for large-scale extermination actions. The killing process was more protracted, and, with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp. Therefore, some of the Bialystok trains were diverted as the Germans made other plans for disposing of Jews. The negative experience would likely harden into a firm decision over time, so that by the end of August the camp was probably no longer thought of as even a “backup” killing center.

During September the dismantling of the camp was in full swing . . .
I quoted Arad stating that the last transports of material from the camp were in November.
David wrote:You miss that (dixit Believer scholars) transports went through Treblinka from many other places in early 1943.
No, I don't miss that; I actually wrote about that point as part of what I'm trying to explain to you about the phases of the history of Treblinka. You miss that in the very same post I've already quoted I wrote that
In 1943 the use of the camp changed somewhat - it was used to kill off large groups of Jews from various places - notably the Grodno-Bialystok region and Jews from Macedonia and Thrace, many of these from Greece, deported through Skopje.
Apparently you skipped over that statement every time I've posted it or linked to it.

1943 is significant in this regard because by the end of 1942/early 1943 is when the major part of the extermination of the GG Jews was completed and Jews from other areas began to make up an increasing portion of the Jews killed at Treblinka.
David wrote:And I have just shown some more "inconvenient facts"
There is nothing inconvenient for me about facts that I presented before you did, that you missed in my post, and that are part of my argument.
David wrote:your "theory" relating to transports in October 1942.
By now I've concluded you don't know the meaning of the words main and major and initial - or you can only think in black and white, all or nothing terms. Whatever, you are butchering my argument - and making an ass of yourself (by, for example, lecturing me about points I've supposedly missed - when I've actually made them and they are part of my case!).
David wrote:Instead of just admitting that the facts prove your "theory" wrong,
The evidence shows that Treblinka was mainly used in 1942 to murder Polish Jews and that as the numbers of Jews sent there diminished, the areas from which its victims came expanded - because the major phase of the destruction of the Jews of the GG had been accomplished through AR by early 1943.

None of your totally confused statements proves this theory wrong.
David wrote: you go off on a rant supporting exactly what I am saying…Treblinka was not a "special use" Factory of Death but could be and (supposedly) was used to kill people from all over.
Yes… we all get it…it is obvious. It contradicts your "theory."
Both/and, David, both/and. Not either/or. Treblinka was both mainly used from the outset to murder Polish Jews and later used to kill an increasing proportion of Jews from other areas.

This is very simple - and also standard (remember Arad?). It is not "my theory."

Did you read the pages of Arad I pointed you towards?

Do you have any evidence that Treblinka was a transit camp - or are you going to continue to post gibberish about the camp's history, butcher my statements, pretend I haven't written things that I have written, and re-state my arguments in unrecognizable form?
David wrote:That just brings you back to my original question…

Why was a more efficient, secret, FREE, flexible Factory of Death (Treblinka) abandoned right in the Middle of the Holocaust in favor of a much more expensive, slower, more public places like Majdanek and Auschwitz?
I've already told you- and so has Matthew. My answer was longer and dealt with not only the near completion of the the camp's mission but how the final solution was carried out and the competencies of different groups within the Third Reich. If you disagree fine, but please don't pretend I haven't replied - and please don't butcher my replies. Doing so makes you look incredibly stupid as well as dishonest.
David wrote:The abandonment of Treblinka makes no sense except in light of the fact that resettlements further East stopped in Summer 1943.
The resettlement to the east theory makes no sense in that it flies in the face of the evidence we have, I've pointed out transports to Treblinka from the east, and you have no evidence - if you did, you'd share it - for the claim.

What a pile of {!#%@}. Please try to be more interesting and make arguments that are at least coherent.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:04 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:58 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:coming up with a new theory about Treblinka's "major purpose."  
 
This is not new, David. Examine the transport lists, put those together statements of Himmler and witness testimony. You will find that my earlier post, quoted above, gives an accurate if brief synopsis of the phases of the camp. You will find Arad (see below) describing the phases of murder at Treblinka in roughly the same terms I did - back in the 1980s.
Have you even bothered to look at the transportation list? Take a look just at October 1942 to see how many transports came from outside of Poland.
October 5, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 8, 1942 Theresienstadt
October 15, 1942 Gozdowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 4,000 Wierzbnik, German Reich
October 15, 1942 3,300 Ciechanowice, German Reich
October 15, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 19, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 22, 1942 2,000 Terezín Ghetto, Czechoslovakia
October 31, 1942 800 Ujazd, German Reich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The transport facts blow your theory of a "special use" for Treblinka a part.

Which leaves you unable to explain why a(n allegedly) fast, efficient, secret, cheap
Extermination Factory was shut down in the middle of the Holocaust.

Can you do any better with your "statements of Himmler" claim?
It is years since I added up regional and city totals. Would you be so kind as to compare your 10 transports with fewer than 18,000 deportees to the totals for Warsaw alone, and then for Poland as a whole?
Hello SM- Excuse me but you seem confused over what we are discussing.
The point is NOT that Polish/Jewish citizens were the major victims of National Socialist
policies. They were, as opposed to French/Jewish citizens who had less than 5%
losses or Bulgarian/Jewish citizens who had 0% losses.

The point in dispute is your claim that Treblinka could not have continued as the fastest, free, efficient, secret Extermination Factory once Warsaw Jews had been transported out of Warsaw. My citing transport records from places other than
Warsaw and Radon is to show how (excuse me) silly your theory is.

It becomes even more silly when the alternatives to Treblinka are looked at;
Majdanek and Auschwitz. Vastly more expensive, more public, slower, less
efficient.

You have not given one reason why Himmler (I guess that who you will claim)
would have given orders to abandoned a "great deal" in Extermination factories
in June-July 1943, right in the middle of the Holocaust.
BTW- Keep that date in mind.

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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:09 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: my sense is that the Germans found that the now-undermanned camp, which had suffered significant damage, was no longer suitable for large-scale extermination actions. The killing process was more protracted, and, with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp.
I am sorry but your excuses make zero sense.
The only possible reasonable explanation is the claim of "significant damage."

Do you claim the diesel chambers had been blown up or what?

Take your "undermanned" claim…yes, Treblinka had a very very small number
of Germans guarding it. Let's ignore what that means.
Adding one company to the place would have increased the "man power" 30 times.

How large a number of Jews was ever at Treblinka compared with the
tens of thousands at Auschwitz?

Tale your claim that the killing process was more protracted…how long do you
claim…oh yes…you don't believe in diesel deaths.


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Re: Treblinka II - was it a transit camp?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:36 am

David wrote:Hello SM- Excuse me but you seem confused over what we are discussing.
The point is NOT that Polish/Jewish citizens were the major victims of National Socialist
policies.
No one is discussing this point. We are discussing the uses of Treblinka.
David wrote:They were, as opposed to French/Jewish citizens who had less than 5%
losses or Bulgarian/Jewish citizens who had 0% losses.
What in god's name does this have to do with the uses to which Treblinka was put in 1942 and 1943, which was the topic?
David wrote:The point in dispute is your claim that Treblinka could not have continued as the fastest, free, efficient, secret Extermination Factory once Warsaw Jews had been transported out of Warsaw.
I made no such claim. Please quote where I wrote that Treblinka could not have continued to be used as a killing center.

What you're doing here is misstating my argument to create a strawman.
David wrote:My citing transport records from places other than Warsaw and Radon is to show how (excuse me) silly your theory is.
Which it doesn't show at all (a) because I am aware of the records, (b) I qualified my statements to account for some of the variations, and (c) by far the lion's share of deportees came from the parts of Poland which Treblinka was intended to cleanse.

In addition to which, you are lost in a logical fallacy, as already noted, that the use of the camp for killing different groups of Jews somehow means that most of its victims in 1942 weren't from the designated areas. What total did you get for Warsaw deportees, by the way? Or are you afraid to state it?

The district is Radom, not Radon.
David wrote:It becomes even more silly when the alternatives to Treblinka are looked at;
Majdanek and Auschwitz. Vastly more expensive, more public, slower, less
efficient.
In different regions, with different profiles, under different leadership. Your "mush" theory of the Third Reich is, well, mush.
David wrote:You have not given one reason why Himmler (I guess that who you will claim)
would have given orders to abandoned a "great deal" in Extermination factories
in June-July 1943, right in the middle of the Holocaust.
BTW- Keep that date in mind.
It was actually in February and March 1943 that the transports to Treblinka came almost to a halt, with the special case of the Warsaw uprising transport in April and a 100-person "mop up" transport from Wegrow in May being the pre-Uprising exceptions.

You write as if Himmler and Globus planned the AR camps as semi-permanent fixtures of the final solution. Can you show documents or statements that say or imply that the camps were meant to be around for the duration? I've already quoted to you Himmler's statement of 19 July 1942 to Krueger that he expected the operation to empty the GG of Jews and for this to be completed by end of 1942. During 1942 it was decided to imprison some of the remnant of Poland's Jews temporarily - the will of the Fuhrer being what it was - in labor camps and a few surviving ghettos. These Jews were mostly done away with, as already explained to you, during 1943. Did you look at Arad? Do you understand what these facts imply about the longevity of the AR camps, which were intended to be the main instruments to achieve the work of destroying the Polish Jews as described earlier? It was not a case of ordering camps shut so much as the camps having achieved their purpose and being allowed to wind down, as had been envisioned.
Last edited by Statistical Mechanic on Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:44 am

David wrote:I am sorry but your excuses make zero sense.
The only possible reasonable explanation is the claim of "significant damage."

Do you claim the diesel chambers had been blown up or what?

Take your "undermanned" claim…yes, Treblinka had a very very small number
of Germans guarding it. Let's ignore what that means.
Adding one company to the place would have increased the "man power" 30 times.

How large a number of Jews was ever at Treblinka compared with the
tens of thousands at Auschwitz?

Tale your claim that the killing process was more protracted…how long do you
claim…oh yes…you don't believe in diesel deaths.
You are now making absolutely no sense. What you are addressing above is about another point entirely - the situation of the camp after the revolt and how transports were handled at that time. You're scrambling that discussion with your mash-up of everything else.

I am through using this thread to try to help you understand the basic history of Treblinka and AR.

This thread is for you clowns to post your proofs and evidence for Treblinka being a transit camp through which 100s or 1000s of Jews were resettled. If you imagine that your saying that Treblinka could have been used to murder Jews longer than it was used "proves" that it was never used to murder Jews, god help you.
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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:55 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: .... with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp.
David the holocaust denier wrote: I am sorry but your excuses make zero sense. The only possible reasonable explanation is the claim of "significant damage."
David is totally unaware of the revolts in the other camps by Jewish slave workers.

David is totally unaware that German guards were killed.

David is totally unaware that Hitler started withdrawals from the Panther-Wotan line before September 1943, which would allow the Red Army to thrust into Poland and over run the camps. The evidence of mass murder from the camps had to be removed before that happened.

David thinks the Germans could add another company of German guards at Treblinka and somehow this would stop the Red Army coming. ( What an idiot)

However this is all about David the holocaust denier, diverting the conversation to areas where he can offer his "fuzzy opinions" so he can avoid topics where you keep hitting him over the head with clear facts.

David the holocaust denier wrote: Take your "undermanned" claim…yes, Treblinka had a very very small number.of Germans guarding it
How many David?
David the holocaust denier wrote: Adding one company to the place would have increased the "man power" 30 times.
A "company" is 100 men. Do you think there were only three Germans at Treblinka?

Do you actually know where Poland is?

:D

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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:07 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Do you actually know where Poland is? [/color]
:D
LOL

He seems to think that Bialystok and Grodno were west of Treblinka, so who can guess what he knows?

And, along with the points you make (thanks!), he seems to think that what went on at TII in August 1943, after the revolt, in the context of that month, is somehow indicative of how he would have run the whole final solution, during its entire time span and everywhere. It is hilarious, actually.
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The Why Close Treblinka Tap Dance.

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:57 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
David wrote:My citing transport records from places other than Warsaw and Radom is to show how (excuse me) silly your theory is.
Which it doesn't show at all (a) because I am aware of the records,
(b) I qualified my statements to account for some of the variations, and (c) by far the lion's share of deportees came from the parts of Poland which Treblinka was intended to cleanse.
Sigh....ok.
Do you agree that Treblinka (in Believer History) was very efficient, very cheap, and very private?
Do you agree that it was easily capable of killing people from anywhere in German
occupied Europe?




snip drivel-

David wrote:It becomes even more silly when the alternatives to Treblinka are looked at;
Majdanek and Auschwitz. Vastly more expensive, more public, slower, less
efficient.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: In different regions, with different profiles, under different leadership. Your "mush" theory of the Third Reich is, well, mush.
What is that supposed to mean? Please relate to transports from Greece or Hungary.
David wrote:You have not given one reason why Himmler (I guess that who you will claim)
would have given orders to abandoned a "great deal" in Extermination factories
in June-July 1943, right in the middle of the Holocaust.
BTW- Keep that date in mind.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: It was actually in February and March 1943 that the transports to Treblinka came almost to a halt,
Right. And how does that date relate to German plans to
Exterminate all European Jews? I say it is right in the middle of the Holocaust.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: You write as if Himmler and Globus planned the AR camps as semi-permanent fixtures of the final solution.
I am starting a discussion with the agreed upon fact that
transports to Treblinka came to almost to a halt in March 1943.

The obvious explanation for this is that transports to the East ended than as
Germany started loosing eastern territory.

Believers do not have any explanation for the closing.

1. The Holocaust was less than half over in March 1943,
2. Treblinka was the most efficient, cheapest, most secret camp by far-

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Can you show documents or statements that say or imply that the camps were meant to be around for the duration?
You are creating a Strawman-Treblinka II was a transit facility.

But, again, you miss the obvious Treblinka fact...when was Treblinka I closed?
Was it around for the "duration?"

Current Believer mythology has made Treblinka II into the most amazing
Extermination Factory ever created- far, far "better" than Auschwitz or Majdanek.
You have no rational explanation as to why it was closed in the middle of the
Holocaust.

Statistical Mechanic wrote: I've already quoted to you Himmler's statement of 19 July 1942 to Krueger that he expected the operation to empty the GG of Jews and for this to be completed by end of 1942.
And what does that have to do with anything?
Are you claiming Auschwitz and Majdanek were shut down?
Are you claiming the German plans to eliminate European Jews ended
in March 1943?
Are you joining David Irving in his "One half the Holocaust" theory?

Statistical Mechanic wrote: Do you understand what these facts imply about the longevity of the AR camps, which were intended to be the main instruments to achieve the work of destroying the Polish Jews as described earlier? It was not a case of ordering camps shut so much as the camps having achieved their purpose and being allowed to wind down, as had been envisioned.
Can you stick to Treblinka? And you misstate the events-
What happened is that Treblinka was shut down just when transports east ended.
You Believers are mum about the huge amounts of money and effort that were spent in converting Auschwitz into an Extermination Factory...along with huge and expensive problems in body disposal
But maybe you don't know when the 4 Krema were built?
Maybe you don't know they burned coke?
Maybe you don't know that they broke down in summer 1943?

So, it was not a gentle, natural "Mission Completed" unfolding in March 1943
but the abandonment of the most efficient, free, secret Extermination Factory the Germans had. Swapped for the vastly more expensive, inefficient, public and escape ridden Auschwitz and Majdanek.




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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:03 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: .... with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp.
You are the same Statistical Mechanic who admits transports to Treblinka wound down
to almost nothing before the alleged break out?

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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:06 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote: And, along with the points you make (thanks!), he seems to think that what went on at TII in August 1943, after the revolt, in the context of that month, is somehow indicative of how he would have run the whole final solution, during its entire time span and everywhere. It is hilarious, actually.
It's funnier than you think. David claims 5,000 people worked at Treblinka II, reprocessing Soviet munitions. He hasn't bothered to explain where they slept, how untrained people did this without equipment or why Treblinka II was closed when Germany was running out of ammunition.

David is quite "bonkers" at the moment.
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David the holocaust denier and his endless lies

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:37 am

David the insane holocaust denier wrote:Do you agree that Treblinka was very efficient, very cheap, and very private?
* The old gas chamber broke down, ( Not very efficient)
* The slave working Jews killed Germans in the revolt ( Not very efficient)
* The Allies warn Germany about war crimes on January 13, 1942 and mention Treblinka in London in 1942. ( Not very secret)

Complete fail by David
David the insane holocaust denier wrote:Do you agree that it was easily capable of killing people from anywhere in German occupied Europe?
No David Once the Russians started winning the Germans had to hide the evidence of genocide. Have you heard of Russia?

Another complete fail by David
David the insane holocaust denier wrote:You have not given one reason why Himmler would have given orders to abandoned a "great deal" in Extermination factories in June-July 1943, right in the middle of the Holocaust.

The battle of Stalingrad showed that Germany could be beaten. The battle of Kursk destroyed most German armour on the Eastern front. Germany never won another battle against the Russians. Next stop Berlin and war crime trials for Himmler!
Statistical Mechanic wrote:I've already quoted to you Himmler's statement of 19 July 1942 to Krueger that he expected the operation to empty the GG of Jews and for this to be completed by end of 1942.
David the insane holocaust denier wrote: And what does that have to do with anything?
The date David

Statistical Mechanic wrote: It was not a case of ordering camps shut so much as the camps having achieved their purpose and being allowed to wind down, as had been envisioned.
David the insane holocaust denier wrote:Can you stick to Treblinka?
Treblinka is one of these extermination camps David, Did you forget?

David the insane holocaust denier a year ago wrote: There were two Treblinka Camps, Pyrrho. Treblinka I was a labor camp which ran a huge gravel quarry. Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed. Both camps together had about 5,000 inmates on the average
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 71#p207171" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Uh huh? And why did the naughty Germans close Treblinka II David, if Germany was running out of munitions? Where did those 5,000 people sleep at Treblinka II?

What new fabrications do you have for us today?

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Re: The Why Close Treblinka Tap Dance.

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:12 am

David wrote:Do you agree that Treblinka (in Believer History) was very efficient, very cheap, and very private?
Treblinka had issues, not least of which was a revolt there, like at Sobibor. Other times camp operations broke down. News about Treblinka reached the West - and was publicized there as you yourself noted in this post. Your habit of ignoring or "forgetting" what I've written hurt my feelings until now: you can't even remember what you've written!

Do you admit that to stack the decks in your bizarre comparison of AR camps to Auschwitz and Majdanek, you gave false time spans for the duration of killing operations in Auschwitz and Majdanek?
David wrote:Do you agree that it was easily capable of killing people from anywhere in German
occupied Europe?
I've already stated, a number of times, that Treblinka whilst in operation was used to murder people from parts of Europe other than Poland; it seems to me axiomatic that if the camp was so used, it was capable of being so used.
David wrote:
David wrote:It becomes even more silly when the alternatives to Treblinka are looked at;
Majdanek and Auschwitz. Vastly more expensive, more public, slower, less
efficient.
Statistical Mechanic wrote: In different regions, with different profiles, under different leadership. Your "mush" theory of the Third Reich is, well, mush.
What is that supposed to mean?
I've already explained a few times. I'm not going to repeat myself further. Your inability to comprehend and recall is your own problem, which you need to address somehow.
David wrote:Please relate to transports from Greece or Hungary.
Transports from Greece came to both A-B and Treblinka; the Germans sent transports from Hungary to A-B in 1944, after the AR camps had been closed down and dismantled.
David wrote:And how does that date relate to German plans to Exterminate all European Jews? I say it is right in the middle of the Holocaust.
So what? The final solution was not carried out identically across Europe - and not even within former Poland and eastern Europe.

As Matthew and I have explained, the closing of Treblinka came at the end of Aktion Reinhard, when most Jews of the GG had been murdered and the remnant incarcerated in slave labor camps and work ghettos - to meet their fate in these places, according to the will of Fuhrer, in 1943.

Coulda woulda shoulda is a very weak argument against actual evidence, of which you apparently have none. The Germans coulda used Zyklon B at the AR camps, too; but those camps, being under a different administration than A-B used gasoline engines to murder Jews in gas chambers. A-B coulda used gas vans as were pioneered at Chelmno; but A-B, being under a different administration, found a different solution for exterminating its victims, Zyklon B.

Your "mush" theory, in which all the pieces and parts of the genocide are mushed together into a blob, without any attention to the historical factors, keeps leading you into dead ends: the AR camps were not conceived "to Exterminate all European Jews" - their main purpose was to cleanse the GG and they were pressed into some service for other parts of Europe along the way. Similarly, the mobile killing squads were not conceived "to Exterminate all European Jews" - their main purpose was to cleanse occupied Soviet territory of local Jews although they were pressed into service to murder Reich and other Jews from central Europe from time to time. Chelmno was not conceived "to Exterminate all European Jews" but rather to rid the Warthegau of non-working Jews, laboring Jews in the Gau to be incarcerated at Lodz, although the camp was pressed into service along the way to murder central European Jews who'd been deported to Lodz and in 1944 the camp was reopened and used to help liquidate Lodz ghetto.

None of these distinctions and functional differences, relating to how occupied Europe was administeredand the final solution organized and implemented, contradicts logic - and all of this is in accord with the evidence you keep ignoring.

Do you have a scintilla of evidence regarding resettlement of the Jews to the East?
David wrote:I am starting a discussion with the agreed upon fact that transports to Treblinka came to almost to a halt in March 1943.
The obvious explanation for this is that transports to the East ended than as Germany started loosing eastern territory.
1) "Transports to the East"? LOL. Describe these transports, where they went, how they were conducted, when the departed and where and when they arrived, what reception and other preparations were in place where they arrived, what the Jews did in their new homes in the East, what officials were in charge, etc. Also, please summarize the evidence - documents, testimonies, witness statements, etc - proving that 100s of 1000s of Jews went through Treblinka to places in the East.

2) So what? There were many other factors involved - and, in fact, the transports to Treblinka began slowing down earlier than March 1943. In this thread a revisionist stands on his head and spouts BS just to concoct a whole different story out of his exaggeration of the drop off in transports in February 1943: you guys jump all around just to have any story at all, I notice - even if you wind up contradicting one another and spouting incoherent nonsense.

There not being transports further to the East during 1942-1943, the supposed need to stop such transports in summer 1943 is kind of a silly gambit, David.
David wrote:Believers do not have any explanation for the closing.
Except that Matthew and I, who are not "Believers" by the way, have given you one, patiently, with details.
David wrote:2. Treblinka was the most efficient, cheapest, most secret camp by far-
You tried jimmying the data to present this case - and ignored your own evidence to the contrary. Where are the German efficiency studies on the various camps? What kind of secret is discussed in a book introduced by Eleanor Roosevelt and Albert Einstein? These claims are simply the lifeline you've concocted for yourself absent any evidence of transit and resettlement to the East . . .
David wrote:You are creating a Strawman-Treblinka II was a transit facility.
David, please look up strawman. I have given you evidence for the main purpose of Treblinka and by implication its expected duration. You've given us speculation and coulda shoulda woulda in ignorance of the situation and in contradiction to what is known, as Matthew and I have shown.

Now you counter evidence and explanations of that evidence with a totally unsupported claim: what we are asking you is for proof that "Treblinka II was a transit facility"- your typing out one more time that "Treblinka II was a transit facility" is not proof but repetition - nothing more than another vacuous claim.
David wrote:Current Believer mythology has made Treblinka II into the most amazing Extermination Factory ever created- far, far "better" than Auschwitz or Majdanek.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you kindly help me and other readers by citing some examples of the mythology I'm supposedly buying into? Where did I, for example, ever claim that TII was amazing, better than Auschwitz, etc?
David wrote:You have no rational explanation as to why it was closed in the middle of the
Holocaust.
Except the one I've patiently explained in several posts and which seems to go over your head.
David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: I've already quoted to you Himmler's statement of 19 July 1942 to Krueger that he expected the operation to empty the GG of Jews and for this to be completed by end of 1942.
And what does that have to do with anything?
Are you claiming Auschwitz and Majdanek were shut down?
You are clearly not able to follow this history and you're continuing to jumble parts and pieces into a muddle. Of course I am not claiming Auschwitz was shut down - Auschwitz was not part of AR and not focused on ridding the GG of its Jewish population. One purpose of Auschwtiz, murdering Jews in the European wide final solution, was played out at Birkenau, but the Auschwitz complex had other uses along with its role in the final solution. And, as noted a number of times in this and the "Arad's Goof" thread, Majdanek, unlike the AR camps, was a multi-function camp, used as a KL as well as for labor, POWs, storage of stolen property, etc. As you know, I've explained to you and Hunt that Hunt's "achievement" in "finding" Jews "resettled" to Majdanek is pretty much an own goal, given what happened there during 1943, especially during Aktion Erntefest.
David wrote:Are you claiming the German plans to eliminate European Jews ended
in March 1943?
I never implied any such thing; what I did was point out to you some basic distinctions of which you seem ignorant. Your inability to follow the well-known history of the AR camps, and to distinguish their role from that of other parts of the final solution, pretty much disqualifies you to make any points here until you go back and do some remediation. I have seen time and again your utter ignorance - but what you are revealing in this thread is mind boggling.
David wrote:Can you stick to Treblinka?
You brought up Auschwitz, not me! But now you don't want me to comment on points you bring up? LOL. In any event, no, Treblinka was part of AR, and AR was part of a larger web of actions and events. You don't get to limit discussion to what you feel is safe for your dishonest and ignorant claims.
David wrote:what happened is that Treblinka was shut down just when transports east ended.
Since the transports east were to Treblinka, your point is a tautology.

Again, what is your evidence for transports further east from Treblinka? To where, etc?
David wrote:You Believers are mum about the huge amounts of money and effort that were spent in converting Auschwitz into an Extermination Factory...along with huge and expensive problems in body disposal
But maybe you don't know when the 4 Krema were built?
Hunh? We were discussing some of those very Krema in this thread before you disappeared for a vacation or something, abandoning your shredded argument there.

It is not lost on me that right after instructing me to focus on Treblinka, you admonish me for not providing details about construction of the gas chambers at . . . Birkenau! LOL. What a retarded argument.

Your attempt to distract from your lack of anything concrete to say about "transports to the East" and from your inability to find any evidence for such transports is obvious in this thread: you are totally off topic, because you have nothing in reply to Nessie's original post.
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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:41 am

David wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote: .... with the revolt haunting them, the Germans didn’t want large numbers of Jews in the camp.
You are the same Statistical Mechanic who admits transports to Treblinka wound down
to almost nothing before the alleged break out?
Apples and oranges, my pig-ignorant friend. Also, you need to discard your black/white, all/nothing way of thinking.

But you keep taking us off topic: we should be discussing what actually happened during AR and the Holocaust in other threads - like this one http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22800" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for Treblinka; the present thread is meant as a place for you to spin your fantasy view about transit and resettlement. Would you kindly return to topic?
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Re: Free vs. Expensive…why was Treblinka abandoned?

Post by David » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:40 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
But you keep taking us off topic: we should be discussing what actually happened during AR and the Holocaust in other threads - like this one http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22800" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for Treblinka; the present thread is meant as a place for you to spin your fantasy view about transit and resettlement. Would you kindly return to topic?
Hello SM-
You asked for evidence that Treblinka II was related to resettlement.
I pointed out the obvious fact that Treblinka II was closed when resettlement
stopped.
For all the various cogent reasons given above, the Camp would NOT have been closed if Treblinka II was the amazing, free, efficient, perfect Extermination Factory of
Believer Mythology…being replaced with expensive, inefficient Majdanek Camp
on the outskirts of Lublin. Unless you can find a heretofore secret Himmler Order
saying he has decided to go with expensive, slow, and public secret exterminations.

As to my spinning a fantasy view of resettlement, I haven't. I don't make a claim
as to where or if or how many Polish Jews were transported.