Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkenau?

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David
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:49 am

For what it is worth, I agree with Nessie that missing people are evidence....
although I am sure of what given the vast movements of people in Central
Europe between 1939 - 1949.

However I am fairly confident that 4,000,000 of them did not
disappear into the basement of Krema II!

I wanted to address the genesis of the vent hole tales of Krema II.
For the Soviets, it was a case of 4,000,000 victims looking for a place to
have been killed (and buried).

In January - June of 1945 Soviet investigators explored Auschwitz/Birkenau
looking for evidence. That is when they chipped the 2 holes in the roof of
Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II.

They also came up with ideas with how the "gas" was delivered.
Evidently a French doctor suggested Zyklon being dropped into the
"gas chambers" in some sort of basket.
Then in June 1945 a "plan" for the system was drawn.
http://holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/ ... 0487.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David
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Dr. Henri Limousin- Creator of the Zyklon column?

Post by David » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:27 am

David wrote: In January - June of 1945 Soviet investigators explored Auschwitz/Birkenau
looking for evidence. That is when they chipped the 2 holes in the roof of
Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II.

They also came up with ideas with how the "gas" was delivered.
Evidently a French doctor suggested Zyklon being dropped into the
"gas chambers" in some sort of basket.
Then in June 1945 a "plan" for the system was drawn.
http://holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 0487.shtml
The Soviets realized that Leichenkeller 2 of Krema II and III
would have been impossible as part of a "gas chamber' system.
There solution was to create fake evidence by adding a stairway
to the plans.
"No access stairway from the exterior to the future undressing (Leichenkeller 2) [this absence is particularly visible on 932 (r), where the Soviets have tried to rectify the defect by adding some steps in the center of its west wall, which is incorrect, the actual location being more to the north]. What is more. the Krematorium was actually built without this stairway [photos neg. nos. 286 and 20995/493 for Krematorium III] which was added later;
See
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0284.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The creation of a "zyklon induction system"
is shown at
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0287.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"This sketch, found on the bottom left of 932(r), is inversed with respect to the German inscriptions. The inscriptions on the sketch, which is a cross section of Leichenkeller 1, the gas chamber, of Krematorium II, are written in French This may be because in January 1945, the Soviet Commission investigating the crimes committed in Auschwitz Birkenau called upon educated former prisoners of various nationalities to act as consultants and explain the way the gas chambers worked, as this was not fully understood at that time. The Soviet film, “Chronicles of the Liberation of the camp, 1945” shows a group or medical men and academics, still in their prison uniform, guiding members of the Soviet Commission. Among them was a French doctor. Henri Limousin, who is perhaps the author of this sketch.

From the historical standpoint, this view of a gas introduction “tube” is valid in its general principle, but inexact in its structure, which has been known precisely since the testimony of Michal Kula, a former prisoner having worked in the DAW metalworking shop, where the wire mesh Zyklon-B introduction columns were made. Two versions were produced, one where the gas was diffused from the lower part and the other from the upper part. "

Thus, various ideas were floated in March 1945 and the supporting
evidence was created in June 1945.
Of course there is no physical evidence of any Zyclon columns at
Leichenkeller 1, either remains, or signs of attachment at the ceiling, beams
or floor.

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Nessie
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:27 am

Thankyou David for two considered posts where you present your side's evidence. Regarding this

"In January - June of 1945 Soviet investigators explored Auschwitz/Birkenau
looking for evidence. That is when they chipped the 2 holes in the roof of
Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II."

and this

"The Soviets realized that Leichenkeller 2 of Krema II and III
would have been impossible as part of a "gas chamber' system.
There solution was to create fake evidence by adding a stairway
to the plans."

Are you able to really evidence that, or are you making an assumption based on the Soviets having the opprtunity and motive to tamper with evidence?
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David
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:38 pm

Nessie wrote:Thankyou David for two considered posts where you present your side's evidence. Regarding this

"In January - June of 1945 Soviet investigators explored Auschwitz/Birkenau
looking for evidence. That is when they chipped the 2 holes in the roof of
Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II."

and this

"The Soviets realized that Leichenkeller 2 of Krema II and III
would have been impossible as part of a "gas chamber' system.
There solution was to create fake evidence by adding a stairway
to the plans."

Are you able to really evidence that, or are you making an assumption based on the Soviets having the opprtunity and motive to tamper with evidence?

The second is a quote from Pressac referring to the
marking up of the copy of the plan. By the way, Pressac's comments on this
page are very interesting. |Not to divert myself from answering you, but
note his
" Leichenkeller 3 was to be the reception morgue, where the prison numbers of the corpses would be recorded;
b) Leichenkeller 2 was to be temporary storage for newly arrived and recorded corpses awaiting cremation (delay of 3 or 4 days);
c) Leichenkeller 1 was to take corpses several days old, beginning to decompose and thus requiring the room to be well-ventilated, to be incinerated as soon as possible.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0284.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As to your first question about the all important "vent holes."
No, I do not have irrefutable evidence that there were no holes on December 1944-
The date demolition of Krema II started.
There is an Alied aerial photograph of Dec. 1944 but I do not have the ability to enlarge it. There is also a post Liberation photograph taken by the Germans in February 1945.

However, I believe that such evidence exists in the form of the first
Soviet photographs of the roof taken after January 1945.
As a quest, try and see what is the earliest post Liberation photograph of the
roof of Leichenkeller 1 Krema II that you can find.



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Nessie
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:46 pm

So you cannot be sure the Soviets meddled with Krema II?

Do you accept that the Nazis certainly meddled with the site by blowing it up?
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David
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:01 am

Nessie wrote:So you cannot be sure the Soviets meddled with Krema II?

Do you accept that the Nazis certainly meddled with the site by blowing it up?
Actually, I don't think they meddled. The hole(s) needed to be
chipped in the roof to gain entrance to the Leichenkeller 1 since the doorway
was blocked.
It was later that the chipped hole becane a "vent hole" and the plan for a
wire mesh column was created.
Quote Pressac. The opening allowing access to the space below the part of the collapsed roof supported by the second pillar is at the far end, eastern side,
"http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0354.shtml

As to the Nazis meddling...they didn't blow it up...they carefully blew the
beam and dropped the ceiling down inact. They preserved the entire ceiling
and left all of the "gas chamber" room, albeit in a messy state.

See http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0353.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; et seq.

Guess they didn't know it was a gas chamber and spent most of their time dismantling the furnaces and taking down the chimney.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:35 am

Only a few corrections.

There is no proof, that holes were made by Soviets. For example Hole number 1 was propably made by Poles to get access to chamber. Prof. Dawidowski which investigated chamber as ordered by judge Jan Sehn, did not mentioned hole, so is logical to assume that hole did not existed since he would mention it because his previous investigations were very thorough and the hole was made during investigation. There are several holes, most of them caused by explosion when the roof fell on the supporting pillars. Not even one is introduction hole as has been proved.

There is no proof that Germans destroyed crematorias, they dismantled them as proved by air photo
http://quintinlake.files.wordpress.com/ ... -44-01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but no proof of demolition from Germans, on the contrary, there are lot of logical points why the kremas were destroyed by Soviets.

Stairs are not faked, stairs are real and innocent and are visible even today in Birkenau
http://www.scillonian.com/crematoriumberkenau.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they were added later to the plans as needed change, because crematoria were originally planned with morgues completely underground, but because of high level of underground water, they moved morgues partly above ground, so it was needed to add new stairs to avoid problems with acessing the morgues.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/CritiqueGray.html#_ftnref11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:33 am

Bob wrote:Only a few corrections.

There is no proof, that holes were made by Soviets. For example Hole number 1 was propably made by Poles to get access to chamber. Prof. Dawidowski which investigated chamber as ordered by judge Jan Sehn, did not mentioned hole, so is logical to assume that hole did not existed since he would mention it because his previous investigations were very thorough and the hole was made during investigation. There are several holes, most of them caused by explosion when the roof fell on the supporting pillars. Not even one is introduction hole as has been proved.

You are quite right that the supporting pillars broke through
the concrete ceiling. :oops: :oops:


There is no proof that Germans destroyed crematorias, they dismantled them as proved by air photo
http://quintinlake.files.wordpress.com/ ... -44-01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but no proof of demolition from Germans, on the contrary, there are lot of logical points why the kremas were destroyed by Soviets.

Again You are quite right about the German dismantling of the
Krema buildings. They left Krema I entirely intact.



Stairs are not faked, stairs are real and innocent and are visible even today in Birkenau
http://www.scillonian.com/crematoriumberkenau.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they were added later to the plans as needed change, because crematoria were originally planned with morgues completely underground, but because of high level of underground water, they moved morgues partly above ground, so it was needed to add new stairs to avoid problems with acessing the morgues.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/CritiqueGray.html#_ftnref11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You are correct on the design history of the western stairs but
that was not what Pressac was claiming. He was saying that the Soviets
drew them in on the wrong place in an earlier set of plans.
I also believe that the stairs were added during the actual construction.
I will try and look it up tomorrow.

Did Dawidowski actually get into the Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II?
There is only the one hole as access. And it is rather difficult.
I am sure that the Soviets took pictures of the "gas chamber" when they
overran Birkenau. They just have been consigned to the Memory Hole.
If someone honest could find them, it would be rather momentous!

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:58 am

David wrote:
Bob wrote:Only a few corrections.

There is no proof, that holes were made by Soviets. For example Hole number 1 was propably made by Poles to get access to chamber. Prof. Dawidowski which investigated chamber as ordered by judge Jan Sehn, did not mentioned hole, so is logical to assume that hole did not existed since he would mention it because his previous investigations were very thorough and the hole was made during investigation. There are several holes, most of them caused by explosion when the roof fell on the supporting pillars. Not even one is introduction hole as has been proved.

You are quite right that the supporting pillars broke through
the concrete ceiling. :oops: :oops:


There is no proof that Germans destroyed crematorias, they dismantled them as proved by air photo
http://quintinlake.files.wordpress.com/ ... -44-01.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but no proof of demolition from Germans, on the contrary, there are lot of logical points why the kremas were destroyed by Soviets.

Again You are quite right about the German dismantling of the
Krema buildings. They left Krema I entirely intact.


Yes, Krema I with alleged gas chamber was left intact, because ovens were already dismantled during conversion to air raid shelter in 1944.

Stairs are not faked, stairs are real and innocent and are visible even today in Birkenau
http://www.scillonian.com/crematoriumberkenau.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they were added later to the plans as needed change, because crematoria were originally planned with morgues completely underground, but because of high level of underground water, they moved morgues partly above ground, so it was needed to add new stairs to avoid problems with acessing the morgues.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/CritiqueGray.html#_ftnref11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You are correct on the design history of the western stairs but
that was not what Pressac was claiming. He was saying that the Soviets
drew them in on the wrong place in an earlier set of plans.
I also believe that the stairs were added during the actual construction.
I will try and look it up tomorrow.


I don´t know about possible forgery on plans, at least to my knowledge, and I doubt it because in this case some revisionists would already pointed this out loudly. Yes, try to find what you mean.

Did Dawidowski actually get into the Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II?
There is only the one hole as access. And it is rather difficult.
I am sure that the Soviets took pictures of the "gas chamber" when they
overran Birkenau. They just have been consigned to the Memory Hole.
If someone honest could find them, it would be rather momentous!


Yes, the hole is large enough to get into morgue, the hole was smaller in 1945 as you can see here, scroll down to see three comparison photos.
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/CM/noholes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But large enough to get down, see here how much space he has around
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not aware of any photos of alleged chambers which were taken after liberation, I never saw such a photo and is of course very suspicus to not take some photo of alleged murder weapon, we both propably know why they did not take photo. But is possible that such a photos exist but they are locked in archives, who knows.

I know only about photo of roof of Krema I after liberation, the Soviets used roof of gas chamber for dancing party as Pressac wrote in his book.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0149.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also the alleged chimneys/holes for introduction of Zyklon B are missing since they never existed.