Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkenau?

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Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkenau?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:51 pm

Some peoples from my previous thread "complained" that answers to these three questions

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p267257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (feel free to answer them)

requires to qoute whole books, whole chapters and etc. I decided to place one simple question to partly solve this problem and I hope that this will not be reason to not answer anymore.

I decided to choose Auschwitz since this is the most known place, the most documented, with the biggest death toll at this time, with many "survivors", as Robert Jan Van Pelt said Auschwitz is like "“the holy of holies." (Errol Morris, Mr. Death movie, 1999) Is obvious that Auschwitz is the main pillar of holocaust narrative.

My question is really simple and very specific and for those who speak about "proven fact" should not be problem to answer without need to quote chapters or books.

1)Can you prove me that peoples were gassed in gas chamber in Krema II in Auschwitz-Birkenau?

Why this question? Because I don´t believe it. And why this specific question? Because:
"Auschwitz is like the holy of holies."

"Crematorium II is the most lethal building of Auschwitz. In the 2500 square feet of this one room, more people lost their lives than any other place on this planet. 500,000 people were killed. If you would draw a map of human suffering, if you created a geography of atrocity, this would be the absolute center." (emphasis added)

Robert Jan Van Pelt in Errol Morris, "Mr. Death" movie about Fred Leuchter, 1999 http://errolmorris.com/film/mrd_transcript.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Please again, no ad hominems, no strawmans, no dodging welcomed, be polite and honest. Sources and quotes are welcomed to be sure that information isn´t invented.

Thanks for answers.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:47 pm

Bob wrote:Some peoples from my previous thread "complained" that answers to these three questions

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p267257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (feel free to answer them)

requires to qoute whole books, whole chapters and etc. I decided to place one simple question to partly solve this problem and I hope that this will not be reason to not answer anymore.

I decided to choose Auschwitz since this is the most known place, the most documented, with the biggest death toll at this time, with many "survivors", as Robert Jan Van Pelt said Auschwitz is like "“the holy of holies." (Errol Morris, Mr. Death movie, 1999) Is obvious that Auschwitz is the main pillar of holocaust narrative.

My question is really simple and very specific and for those who speak about "proven fact" should not be problem to answer without need to quote chapters or books.

1)Can you prove me that peoples were gassed in gas chamber in Krema II in Auschwitz-Birkenau?

Why this question? Because I don´t believe it. And why this specific question? Because:
"Auschwitz is like the holy of holies."

"Crematorium II is the most lethal building of Auschwitz. In the 2500 square feet of this one room, more people lost their lives than any other place on this planet. 500,000 people were killed. If you would draw a map of human suffering, if you created a geography of atrocity, this would be the absolute center." (emphasis added)

Robert Jan Van Pelt in Errol Morris, "Mr. Death" movie about Fred Leuchter, 1999 http://errolmorris.com/film/mrd_transcript.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Please again, no ad hominems, no strawmans, no dodging welcomed, be polite and honest. Sources and quotes are welcomed to be sure that information isn´t invented.

Thanks for answers.
Good question Bob-
As far as I understand, there has never been one autopsy which showed
the cause of death as being cyanide poisoning. This despite the claims
that millions of people were killed by cyanide.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:46 pm

You are right, no autopsy report during or after the war did not show even one single cyanide gassed body, there is not even one documented case of gassed victim. (at least to my knowledge)

I am also not aware of even one single autopsy report confirming just one single gassed victim from CO poisoning. But this is another subject.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:43 am

Fred Leuchter's research established the presence of cyanide residues in the demolished gas chambers at Auschwitz. Proof enough that people were gassed there.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:51 am

Start here, and read through to and including the Conclusion

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement/13.31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Might as well read the entire transcript, or the entire site. Highly informative.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Pyrrho » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:54 am

Bob wrote:You are right, no autopsy report during or after the war did not show even one single cyanide gassed body, there is not even one documented case of gassed victim. (at least to my knowledge)

I am also not aware of even one single autopsy report confirming just one single gassed victim from CO poisoning. But this is another subject.
The Nazi practice of cremating the dead at the various camps rendered autopsies somewhat improbable.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:03 am

Pyrrho wrote:Fred Leuchter's research established the presence of cyanide residues in the demolished gas chambers at Auschwitz. Proof enough that people were gassed there.
No, see

Name/sample number/location/CN mg/kg
Fred Leuchter 1-7 crematorium II Results of various samples taken from the walls/ceiling of alleged 'gas chamber' 0.0
Fred Leuchter 28 crematorium I (Auschwitz) Washing room, during the war not included in so-called 'gas chamber' 1.3
Germar Rudolf 1 crematorium II 7.2
Germar Rudolf 2 crematorium II 0.6
Germar Rudolf 3 crematorium II 6.7
Germar Rudolf 11 Camp section B1a, BW 5a (delousing) 2640.0
Germar Rudolf 8 Camp section B1b, inmates hut #13 2.7

Germar Rudolf 25 Bavarian Farm House Brick taken from a collapsed Bavarian farmhouse in Lower Bavaria in summer 1991 9.6

Germar Rudolf 25 Bavarian Farm House As above, but analyzed by Institute für Umweltanalytik Stuttgart (IUS)
Important thing, you need to know how much of cyanide residue is there no if there is some, quantitative, not qualitative.

As you see, inmate barracks, bavarian House or former washroom have the same or even more cyanide residue than in alleged gas chamber in Krema II, but noone claims that peoples were gassed in washroom, inmate barracks or in bavarian house.

Rudolf conclusion:
"values lower than 10 mg cyanide per kg sample material cannot be interpreted. These analyses are not reproducibility." they are "near the detectable threshold"

THE RUDOLF REPORT
Pyrrho wrote:Start here, and read through to and including the Conclusion

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement/13.31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Might as well read the entire transcript, or the entire site. Highly informative.
I know it, you can quote something what you consider as a proof, i didn´t see any.
Pyrrho wrote:
Bob wrote:You are right, no autopsy report during or after the war did not show even one single cyanide gassed body, there is not even one documented case of gassed victim. (at least to my knowledge)

I am also not aware of even one single autopsy report confirming just one single gassed victim from CO poisoning. But this is another subject.
The Nazi practice of cremating the dead at the various camps rendered autopsies somewhat improbable.
Yes, this is standard narrative "they removed all traces of bodies" (which isn´t possible) but they forget to remove murder weapons. Problem is, if there is not even one recorded autopsy of even one victim, how can we know that it did happen.

No proof of crime means proof of crime?

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:31 pm

Still nobody?

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:38 pm

Sorry Bob, but reading through the other threads where you are being asked about proof and what you consider to be proof I think I have a very good idea why this thread is not attracting the replies you want it to.

Your style and skill at arguing, your bias towards some evidence and against others and the sheer fact that to many, because of all the evidence from eyewitnesses, confessions, what was found at the camps, etc etc you are arguing black is in fact white by making claims about the Holocaust and its existence, means people cannot be bothered with you as it is a waste of time.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:11 pm

Nessie wrote:Sorry Bob, but reading through the other threads where you are being asked about proof and what you consider to be proof I think I have a very good idea why this thread is not attracting the replies you want it to.

Your style and skill at arguing, your bias towards some evidence and against others and the sheer fact that to many, because of all the evidence from eyewitnesses, confessions, what was found at the camps, etc etc you are arguing black is in fact white by making claims about the Holocaust and its existence, means people cannot be bothered with you as it is a waste of time.
Nessie, I replied several times what i consider as proof, here again and last I hope:
I will accept as a proof everything what you present to me and what can stand my critical analysis and my questions, if you will be able to defend this proof, no problem, I will accept it. This defense is classic procedure.
Do you have problem with this? Sorry, this is standard procedure in courts, if you can´t defend your argument, you failed.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p267537" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nessie, you use excuse, with David and the others no problem to discuss it as I see, threads are full of alleged proofs and some users spam every threads constantly, but this thread is quite simple and nobody is interested? I wonder why? Same as with my first thread.

I aressed every alleged evidence, I placed questions which contain the problems which I have with the alleged evidence and I was only attacked, my questions dodged and exposed lies of local deabaters ignored and even defended.

If you don´t agree, I challenge you to quote only one single piece of evidence which I according to you adressed incorrectly, be honest, be brave and do it in my thread here

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17559" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And i will adress it. But not in this thread, subject of this thread is different. Thanks.

I have very good idea too, no surprise I expected it, I saw this several times.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:59 pm

I have to admit you ahve got me here as I am struggling to find what you would consider proof.

So all of this

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

to delouse clothes?
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:15 pm

Why is somewhere that is for delousing clothes called a 'krema' and why does it have a 'liechenkeller'?

Is there anywere at Krema II that is a 'wasche'?
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:56 pm

Nessie wrote:I have to admit you ahve got me here as I am struggling to find what you would consider proof.

So all of this

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... rint-1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

to delouse clothes?
I don´t understand, this is not delousing building, but plan of Krema II and III, not delousing. Documents of Central office and from Topf und Sohne show that administrative planned some time to use morgue as an emergency delousing chambers because of spread of typhus epidemics, but that´s all. Despite this, this is only Krema II-III, not delousing block.

Here is plan of delousing facility:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1864/49237840.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice : Gaskammer, gas chamber, one of the major proof that this term was normally used for delousing facilities. Here it is, gas chamber, but nobody claims that peoples were gassed here, interesting.
Nessie wrote:Why is somewhere that is for delousing clothes called a 'krema' and why does it have a 'liechenkeller'?

Is there anywere at Krema II that is a 'wasche'?
This is not for delousing, I say it again, this is only plan of Krematoria II and III. Leichenkeller is name for morgues, morgues are of course normal part of krematoria.

Yes, in these Kremas, there are washrooms, they are on ground level, german - waschraum, see Pressac:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0377.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:57 pm

OK, to try and sort out the confusion, what was Krema II used for?
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Nessie wrote:OK, to try and sort out the confusion, what was Krema II used for?
Krema II and III (they are same, III is mirrored copy of Krema II) were used as crematoria. Narrative story claims, that Leichenkeller 1 is gas chamber, and Leichenkeller 2 is undressing room, then the victims were via small elevator moved up to oven room and then cremated.

Here is better plan, since your previous plan is only ground level and morgues were almost completely below ground level.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... s-0932.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The smaller one (vertical) is alleged gas chamber (morgue 1)

Here is presentaion. Small elevator is number six.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... uction.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is elevator marked with cross
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aus ... sement.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:27 pm

This getting a bit Pythonesque

"Bring out yer dead.
[a man puts a body on the cart]
Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.
The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: What?
Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not."

So people arrive at Krema II alive get undressed, their clothes are cleaned and they are given a wash and then go to the morgue/crematorium :? What happens to them next, back to the rest of the camp to do some work?

I know that is comical, but it how you are presenting what happens at Krema II. Everyone arrives alive and leaves alive.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:59 pm

Nessie wrote:This getting a bit Pythonesque

"Bring out yer dead.
[a man puts a body on the cart]
Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.
The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: What?
Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not."

So people arrive at Krema II alive get undressed, their clothes are cleaned and they are given a wash and then go to the morgue/crematorium :? What happens to them next, back to the rest of the camp to do some work?

I know that is comical, but it how you are presenting what happens at Krema II. Everyone arrives alive and leaves alive.
I didn´t say that peoples left Krema II alive, (except personnel of course)

Official narrative, so again, slowly and you listen carefuly:

Victims entered Leichenkeller 2 using stairs which were added, they get undressed, they were lead to the right to gas chamber, they were gassed, then they ("sonderkommando") dragged bodies (1000-4000) to small elevator which you can see on the plan, moved bodies up and cremated them. No clothing cleaned in Krema II, common narrative is, that clothing is then collected and processed.


This is story without details, still don´t understand? I wonder how is possible that you don´t know this basic knowledge of this subject?

These buildings (Krema II, III) are not delousing facilities, "deniers" consider undressing room and gas chamber as morgues, normal common morgues as is stated and planned in official plans of Central construction office. As I said, there was also plan to use them as emergency delousing facitlity, because there were typhus epidemics, but still, these buildings are crematoria.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:18 am

OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:26 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Bob wrote:You are right, no autopsy report during or after the war did not show even one single cyanide gassed body, there is not even one documented case of gassed victim. (at least to my knowledge)

I am also not aware of even one single autopsy report confirming just one single gassed victim from CO poisoning. But this is another subject.
The Nazi practice of cremating the dead at the various camps rendered autopsies somewhat improbable.
Imagine that, 6,000,000 bodies totally "disappeared."
Jesus times 1,000,000

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:31 am

Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:46 am

Pyrrho wrote:Fred Leuchter's research established the presence of cyanide residues in the demolished gas chambers at Auschwitz. Proof enough that people were gassed there.

Groan. Proof if you don't think.
Try reading something about the subject, Pyrrho.
Quote Pressac-

In the years 1960-70, when certain bodies were requested to furnish proof of the existence of homicidal gas chambers, they responded by sending a photograph [Photo 1] or [Photo 2] if their documentation was more complete. These "proofs" were supposed to suffice, but now they are no longer valid. At the Liberation there was a relative lack of knowledge about the toxic products used in the homicidal gas chambers and total confusion about their respective methods of use. Ignorance and confusion were fueled by the publication after the war of books such as Camps de concentration! Konzentrationslager by Eugène Aroneau [Office Français d'Edition 1946; Arbeitsgemeinschaft Das Licht, undated in German], which can now be considered a historical monstrosity.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0015.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The presence of the delousing gas chambers also establishes that Zyklon-B, delivered by Tesch and Stabenow and by Degesch, was by no means destined solely for extermination purposes, but by far the greatest part of it was used for "Schädlingsbekämpfung" or pest control, both in these chambers and also in situ in the prisoners' accommodation blocks.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... 0022.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


All buildings were regularly fumigated at Auschwitz.
The building where bodies were taken to be undressed was fumigated
more often. The simple and obvious reason that small amounts of
cyanide are found in the walls of the morgue.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:34 am

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by David » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:12 am

Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
There is a "corpse chute" in the plans. It was a slide from the ground floor to
the basement. This would indicate that people were dead when they arrived.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:06 am

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
There is a "corpse chute" in the plans. It was a slide from the ground floor to
the basement. This would indicate that people were dead when they arrived.
Chute is in the plans, but at least to my knowledge, this chute was not installed propably due to the already expensive project of crematoria and all the changes, they added only stairs, for example Van Pelt used this as one of the proof, that Germans wanted to gas peoples since there were only stairs and accoording to him, dead peoples cannot walk the stairs, he propably couldn´t imagine that deceased prisoners can be brought there using a few stairs. He also forget, that besides the living poeples which were allegedly lead to basement using these stairs is of course needed to still brought deceased prisoners there and cremated them and how they were brought there? Of course using stairs, so nothing strange with the stairs.
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Yes, Krema II is crematorium with morgues and "could" is correct word.

The only dead peoples (not only Jews) which arrived there were deceased prisoners which were brought there for cremation.

And I want to see if someone can prove that these morgues were used to undress and gas 500,000 Jews.
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
Again, of course, that deceased prisoners were dead, they were stored in morgues and waited for cremation. If you want to know arguments of believer side, try to read at least my two links to hdot and Pressac.

Revisionist don´t need to prove using as morguse, all plans, logic and etc. prove this, I already showed you plans. If you want photo of bringing the dead body here or photo of stored dead bodies, then sorry, there was no need to take photos of deceased prisoners in morgues. After that you will propably still don´t believe in morgues since the bodies in morgue could be gassed victims and you would not accept this photo as a proof, propably.

This odd logic is the reason why the accuser must prove crime.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:14 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
There is a "corpse chute" in the plans. It was a slide from the ground floor to
the basement. This would indicate that people were dead when they arrived.
But the corspe chute is denied and also appears as stairs, indicating people were alive

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=6405" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:22 pm

Bob wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
There is a "corpse chute" in the plans. It was a slide from the ground floor to
the basement. This would indicate that people were dead when they arrived.
Chute is in the plans, but at least to my knowledge, this chute was not installed propably due to the already expensive project of crematoria and all the changes, they added only stairs, for example Van Pelt used this as one of the proof, that Germans wanted to gas peoples since there were only stairs and accoording to him, dead peoples cannot walk the stairs, he propably couldn´t imagine that deceased prisoners can be brought there using a few stairs. He also forget, that besides the living poeples which were allegedly lead to basement using these stairs is of course needed to still brought deceased prisoners there and cremated them and how they were brought there? Of course using stairs, so nothing strange with the stairs.
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Yes, Krema II is crematorium with morgues and "could" is correct word.

The only dead peoples (not only Jews) which arrived there were deceased prisoners which were brought there for cremation.

And I want to see if someone can prove that these morgues were used to undress and gas 500,000 Jews.
Nessie wrote:
David wrote:
Nessie wrote:OK, so Krema II is a morgue and crematorium and can be used for delousing.

So the Jews who arrived there were already dead, so no gassings took place.
Please don't be flippant. Believers have been trying to "find" a gas chamber at
Birkenau that could have killed people since 1945. Or think of a system that
would have worked.
If you doubt that the "gas chambers" were actually designed and built as
morgues please go read Pressac.
It is not flippant, if it is a crematorium and morgue, it would be perfectly reasonable for those arriving there to be dead and strange if they were alive. So which way does the evidence point, did people arrive dead, which backs up the denier/revisionsist side, or alive which backs up the believer side?
Again, of course, that deceased prisoners were dead, they were stored in morgues and waited for cremation. If you want to know arguments of believer side, try to read at least my two links to hdot and Pressac.

Revisionist don´t need to prove using as morguse, all plans, logic and etc. prove this, I already showed you plans. If you want photo of bringing the dead body here or photo of stored dead bodies, then sorry, there was no need to take photos of deceased prisoners in morgues. After that you will propably still don´t believe in morgues since the bodies in morgue could be gassed victims and you would not accept this photo as a proof, propably.

This odd logic is the reason why the accuser must prove crime.
So using your standard of evidence we cannot prove Krema II was for gassing people to death or for storing dead bodies and then cremating them, or as a clothes cleaning facility or as a washroom or as an air raid shelter as suggested here

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you wonder why you struggle to get replies from people to your questions. Indeed at the moment I appear to be the only one.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:59 pm

Nessie wrote:So using your standard of evidence we cannot prove Krema II was for gassing people to death or for storing dead bodies and then cremating them, or as a clothes cleaning facility or as a washroom or as an air raid shelter as suggested here

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you wonder why you struggle to get replies from people to your questions. Indeed at the moment I appear to be the only one.
Krema II couldn´t be used as homicidal gas chamber, this is important, proofs are clear, no need to use testimonies to prove morgues. The only logical explanation is thus morgues as is stated in plans and documents and because there is no other place to store bodies of deceased prisoners or typhus victims. Other innocent purposes are possible too, but they are much less supported. This is working logic dear Nessie, but If you don´t agree, can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues. Consider this as challenge to you.

I see what you want to achieve, you try to twist my critical view and standard for proof, the big difference is that I want proof for something what had to leave enormous amount of proofs from all sides, but there is not a single one, only testimonies of a few peoples contradict documents, physical evidence, logic, science and each other. I don´t need testimonies to prove cloth delousing chambers or morgues, I have documents, plans, physical evidence and I have logic.

I provided you with lot of proofs, documents, photos, pictures of still existing delousing chambers, still existing morgues and logic and all of these proofs match to one clear conclusion, but you refused them to achieve some kind of imaginary victory.

You have refused logic, plans, documents, photos, and material evidence. Can you tell me what proof you want when you have refused all of these? Tell me example of proof when you have refused all of these.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:25 pm

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:So using your standard of evidence we cannot prove Krema II was for gassing people to death or for storing dead bodies and then cremating them, or as a clothes cleaning facility or as a washroom or as an air raid shelter as suggested here

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you wonder why you struggle to get replies from people to your questions. Indeed at the moment I appear to be the only one.
Krema II couldn´t be used as homicidal gas chamber, this is important, proofs are clear, no need to use testimonies to prove morgues. The only logical explanation is thus morgues as is stated in plans and documents and because there is no other place to store bodies of deceased prisoners or typhus victims. Other innocent purposes are possible too, but they are much less supported. This is working logic dear Nessie, but If you don´t agree, can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues. Consider this as challenge to you.

So as I said before, we cannot prove to your satisfaction that Krema II was a homicidal gas chamber. But you cannot prove to my satisfaction it was a morgue, indeed you admit to having to apply logic, which is not allowed in a court room, which is one of your critieria for provong a truth.

I see what you want to achieve, you try to twist my critical view and standard for proof, the big difference is that I want proof for something what had to leave enormous amount of proofs from all sides, but there is not a single one, only testimonies of a few peoples contradict documents, physical evidence, logic, science and each other. I don´t need testimonies to prove cloth delousing chambers or morgues, I have documents, plans, physical evidence and I have logic.

I am not twisting your critical view, I am now also applying it myself. Are you pleased about that and you have converted me to a more critical stand point?

I provided you with lot of proofs, documents, photos, pictures of still existing delousing chambers, still existing morgues and logic and all of these proofs match to one clear conclusion, but you refused them to achieve some kind of imaginary victory.

You have refused logic, plans, documents, photos, and material evidence. Can you tell me what proof you want when you have refused all of these? Tell me example of proof when you have refused all of these.
OK, so lets set aside testimony as it goes agaist what you claim and so is inconvenient (which would not be allowed in a court, you cannot ignore evidence)

Documents - have you got any to show numbers of bodies processed in Krema II?

Photos - have you got any of bodies in Krema II?

Plans - yes I accept we have them, but they can be used to show undressing rooms, a gas room, a morgue and a crematorium, which supports the homicidal use, as well as your interpretation.

Physical evidence - of what? Delousing, show me. Dead bodies arriving at a morgue, show me. Cremations, show me. Its use as an air raid shelter, show me.

Logic - well there is the logic of lots of people arrived at a camp which had a gas chamber, a morgue and a crematorium and lots of people died there or have vanished with not trace of them since.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:20 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:So using your standard of evidence we cannot prove Krema II was for gassing people to death or for storing dead bodies and then cremating them, or as a clothes cleaning facility or as a washroom or as an air raid shelter as suggested here

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/auschwitz ... sII01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And you wonder why you struggle to get replies from people to your questions. Indeed at the moment I appear to be the only one.
Krema II couldn´t be used as homicidal gas chamber, this is important, proofs are clear, no need to use testimonies to prove morgues. The only logical explanation is thus morgues as is stated in plans and documents and because there is no other place to store bodies of deceased prisoners or typhus victims. Other innocent purposes are possible too, but they are much less supported. This is working logic dear Nessie, but If you don´t agree, can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues. Consider this as challenge to you.

So as I said before, we cannot prove to your satisfaction that Krema II was a homicidal gas chamber. But you cannot prove to my satisfaction it was a morgue, indeed you admit to having to apply logic, which is not allowed in a court room, which is one of your critieria for provong a truth.

No to my satisfaction, but to satisfaction ot many peoples. I proved you using as morgues, but you refuse it. Dear Nessie, logic is one of the major criteria in court, if something doesn´t not make sense, some testimony, some explanation then is clear that something is wrong with alleged proof and court cannot ignroe it. You simply don´t tell truth to support your goal.

I see what you want to achieve, you try to twist my critical view and standard for proof, the big difference is that I want proof for something what had to leave enormous amount of proofs from all sides, but there is not a single one, only testimonies of a few peoples contradict documents, physical evidence, logic, science and each other. I don´t need testimonies to prove cloth delousing chambers or morgues, I have documents, plans, physical evidence and I have logic.

I am not twisting your critical view, I am now also applying it myself. Are you pleased about that and you have converted me to a more critical stand point?

No, because you don´t have at least even logic, you don´t use my approach.

I provided you with lot of proofs, documents, photos, pictures of still existing delousing chambers, still existing morgues and logic and all of these proofs match to one clear conclusion, but you refused them to achieve some kind of imaginary victory.

You have refused logic, plans, documents, photos, and material evidence. Can you tell me what proof you want when you have refused all of these? Tell me example of proof when you have refused all of these.
OK, so lets set aside testimony as it goes agaist what you claim and so is inconvenient (which would not be allowed in a court, you cannot ignore evidence)

Documents - have you got any to show numbers of bodies processed in Krema II?

I am not aware of official documents about number of cremated bodies for each crematorium. So i apply simple logic, all deceased prisoners were cremated in crematoria, there is no logical explanation why to build crematoria and then don´t used them. Number of cremated bodies in Krema II is possible to calculate to arrive to well founded number.

Photos - have you got any of bodies in Krema II?

At least to my knowledge I didn´t see any photo of bodies in morgues in Krema II. There is no logical explanation, no reason why the Germans should have to take photo of dead bodies in morgue and in the case that such a photo exist I am sure that it would be published long time ago with caption "gassed victims". Can you tell me why such a photo from Germans of dead bodies in morgue should have to exist?

Plans - yes I accept we have them, but they can be used to show undressing rooms, a gas room, a morgue and a crematorium, which supports the homicidal use, as well as your interpritation.

Wrong again, rooms in Krema plans are captioned as morgues, dissecting rooms, washroom, layin-out room and etc. There is no reason to think opposite. Can you tell me some reason to think the opposite?

Physical evidence - of what? Delousing, show me. Dead bodies arriving at a morgue, show me. Cremations, show me. Its use as an air rade shelter, show me.

You can visit Birkenau or Auschwitz and see how these morgues look like, you can guess, they look like morgues. There is no reason for Germans to take photo of bodies arriving to morgue, for what reason to take such a photo, can you tell me? Proof of Cremations? Again, no reason for Germans to take photo of cremations, for what purposes? But here is at least outdoor photo which clearly show chimney, notice black top.

http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-127.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.cwporter.com/SCAN%2040/beeld-135.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did not claim, that alleged gas chamber was used as shelter, so strawman for you.


Logic - well there is the logic of lots of people arrived at a camp which had a gas chamber, a morgue and a crematorium and lots of people died there or have vanished with not trace of them since.

Your logic is wrong at the beginning, how do you know that lot of peoples arrived to Auschwitz to make such a claim? Or what does it mean "lot of"? Crematoria didn´t have gas chamber to gas peoples according to revisionists. Again wrong, they did not vanished, here you can see urns for ashes:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/EasternGe ... d/Urns.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is purpose of urns? Good, Store ashes. Store ahses of murdered victims? Hardly, right? So store ashes of deceased prisoners. For what purposes? I see only a few, to bury them, spread or send them to family. Logical to you? Or do you have some problem with my logic?

Of course, hardly all dead peoples were "processed" like this, most of them were cremated in haste to avoid spread of epidemics. Logical? I hope. Again wrong, they of course left traces, most of them in documents.
You dodged my challenge to demonstrate that you absolutely don´t use my approach to the subject, here is again.

Can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues.[/u] Consider this as challenge to you.

Please, answer.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:55 pm

Bob wrote:
.......

Can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues.[/u] Consider this as challenge to you.

Please, answer.
The storing and sorting of clothes. The sorting of clothes that were removed from the prisoners after they arrived at the camp and store of the clothes they were given to wear as prison clothes.

That is logical as we know the Nazis loved to remove and clean Jew's clothes on arrival at camps as they contained lots of lice. Allegedly.

But lets say it is a morgue. So logic says that the Nazis must have been expecting a very high death toll to build a camp with such a huge morgue and crematorium. Do you agree with that logic Bob?

So I can logic up explanations as well as you can Bob.

PS - if you tried to argue by logic in a criminal law case in a Scottish court, you would be reminded by the Sheriff that you are not in a philosophy class and to stick to presenting evidence, whether that is witness testimony or by productions (physical evidence) to establish your case. So we have a different definition as to how to conduct a legal case.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:46 pm

Now let see my approach, I will not refuse your argumetns without adressing, I will simply adress why you are wrong, that´s my approach.
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues.[/u] Consider this as challenge to you.

Please, answer.
The storing and sorting of clothes. The sorting of clothes that were removed from the prisoners after they arrived at the camp and store of the clothes they were given to wear as prison clothes.
Nice. Why the gas tight doors even with skull and crossed bones? Why cyanide residue in magnitued of thousands o mg/kg? Why is prussian blue on the wall? Why there is heating device? Why there is ventilation? Why to store clothing here when the storage already existed in different place? If these delousing chambers were not for delousing cloths but for storage according to you, where are those delousing chambers for which camp received tons of Zyklon B?

EDIT - sorry Nessie, I missed that you are talking about morgues, I mistaken it with your thread about delousing chambers, I will answer again, you can ignore green text.

If you are able to explain these problems with your theory, I will admit that you are correct. Are you able?

Hope you see the different approach.
Nessie wrote:That is logical as we know the Nazis loved to remove and clean Jew's clothes on arrival at camps as they contained lots of lice. Allegedly.
Not allegedly, the purpose of cleaning of clothes or doing hair cutting is clear. They surely didn´t love it, how did you arrive to this conclusion, this is another logical fallacy, do you think that they loved to spend thousands of Reichsmark to clean clothing of Jews when their soldiers were dying because of lack of supply? Another mistake, camps were full of peoples not only of Jews.
Nessie wrote:But lets say it is a morgue. So logic says that the Nazis must have been expecting a very high death toll to build a camp with such a huge morgue and crematorium. Do you agree with that logic Bob? So I can logic up explanations as well as you can Bob.
Yes, good approach and good start, but I see you are going to make incorrect conclusion "so they planned to murder of all Jews Bob", am I right? But that´s wrong, this conclusion is much more simply and logical and supported, there were horrible typhus epidemics, this is documented, if I remember this correctly, there were records of some 400 or 500 deaths per day, some months scored several thousands of dead peoples, so is logical that they planned the crematoria since the only crematoria was 3 kilometers far in Auschwitz main camp and was pretty small, maximum of 6 ovens. Does this make sense to you? Still wonder why they constructed large crematoria? They in 1943 even closed one crematoria in main camp, this is unlogical when they planned extermination and needed every capacity, right?
Nessie wrote:PS - if you tried to argue by logic in a criminal law case in a Scottish court, you would be reminded by the Sheriff that you are not in a philosophy class and to stick to presenting evidence, whether that is witness testimony or by productions (physical evidence) to establish your case. So we have a different definition as to how to conduct a legal case.
I did not say, that logic is the most important evidence, this is strawman Nessie, I said, that logic is common and one of the most important in courts, see my quote "one of the major criteria". If something does not make sense, the court would hardly ignore it. Of course, this depend on judges and the other peoples, if they are stupid, they can accept even evidence which is totally unlogical, logic require to be inteligent.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:28 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues.[/u] Consider this as challenge to you.

Please, answer.
The storing and sorting of clothes. The sorting of clothes that were removed from the prisoners after they arrived at the camp and store of the clothes they were given to wear as prison clothes.
Here is correct answer. If they stored cloths here, where are morgues for storing bodies? Why to store cloths here when the storage already existed in different place? Why to store it in basement when was much simplier to build storage room on ground level and save thousands of Reichsmarks? Why they constructed ventilation in cloth storage room? Why gas tight doors? Why they constructed elevator which lead to oven room? Why they call this room morgue in documents and plans, code word for "storage room for clothing"?

Only a few points. If you are able to explain these problems with your theory, I will admit that you are correct. Are you able?

Hope you see the different approach.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:16 am

Bob wrote:
......

If you are able to explain these problems with your theory, I will admit that you are correct. Are you able?

Hope you see the different approach.
Nessie wrote:That is logical as we know the Nazis loved to remove and clean Jew's clothes on arrival at camps as they contained lots of lice. Allegedly.
Not allegedly, the purpose of cleaning of clothes or doing hair cutting is clear. They surely didn´t love it, how did you arrive to this conclusion, this is another logical fallacy, do you think that they loved to spend thousands of Reichsmark to clean clothing of Jews when their soldiers were dying because of lack of supply? Another mistake, camps were full of peoples not only of Jews.

OK change loved to rigourous, but why spend that money, why not burn the clothes on pyres and let the new arrivals have a wash? Why build lots of delousing and gas chambers when they needed the money on the front line? That is not logical to build and run and then destroy parts of a laundry service when it was not needed and had an innocuous purpose.
Nessie wrote:But lets say it is a morgue. So logic says that the Nazis must have been expecting a very high death toll to build a camp with such a huge morgue and crematorium. Do you agree with that logic Bob? So I can logic up explanations as well as you can Bob.
Yes, good approach and good start, but I see you are going to make incorrect conclusion "so they planned to murder of all Jews Bob", am I right? But that´s wrong, this conclusion is much more simply and logical and supported, there were horrible typhus epidemics, this is documented, if I remember this correctly, there were records of some 400 or 500 deaths per day, some months scored several thousands of dead peoples, so is logical that they planned the crematoria since the only crematoria was 3 kilometers far in Auschwitz main camp and was pretty small, maximum of 6 ovens. Does this make sense to you? Still wonder why they constructed large crematoria? They in 1943 even closed one crematoria in main camp, this is unlogical when they planned extermination and needed every capacity, right?

Did they build the morgues and crematorium before the start of the typhus epidemic or after?
Nessie wrote:PS - if you tried to argue by logic in a criminal law case in a Scottish court, you would be reminded by the Sheriff that you are not in a philosophy class and to stick to presenting evidence, whether that is witness testimony or by productions (physical evidence) to establish your case. So we have a different definition as to how to conduct a legal case.
I did not say, that logic is the most important evidence, this is strawman Nessie, I said, that logic is common and one of the most important in courts, see my quote "one of the major criteria". If something does not make sense, the court would hardly ignore it. Of course, this depend on judges and the other peoples, if they are stupid, they can accept even evidence which is totally unlogical, logic require to be inteligent.
I did not say that logic is the most important evidence either. Logic is not evidence that you can present to a court.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:20 am

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:Can you tell me for what purposes could be morgue used if the homicidal gassing theory and morgue theory is wrong? Tell me, I wonder, for playing football? For sleeping? For what? I don´t want some extra proof from you like photos and etc., just provide me with working logical explanation and I will admit that I was wrong with using morgues as morgues.[/u] Consider this as challenge to you.

Please, answer.
The storing and sorting of clothes. The sorting of clothes that were removed from the prisoners after they arrived at the camp and store of the clothes they were given to wear as prison clothes.
Here is correct answer. If they stored cloths here, where are morgues for storing bodies? Why to store cloths here when the storage already existed in different place? Why to store it in basement when was much simplier to build storage room on ground level and save thousands of Reichsmarks? Why they constructed ventilation in cloth storage room? Why gas tight doors? Why they constructed elevator which lead to oven room? Why they call this room morgue in documents and plans, code word for "storage room for clothing"?

Only a few points. If you are able to explain these problems with your theory, I will admit that you are correct. Are you able?

Hope you see the different approach.
So your logic that it was a morgue is better than mine that it is a clothes store. But you cannot prove it was used as a morgue, and it still could have been used as a clothes store.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
......

If you are able to explain these problems with your theory, I will admit that you are correct. Are you able?

Hope you see the different approach.
Nessie wrote:That is logical as we know the Nazis loved to remove and clean Jew's clothes on arrival at camps as they contained lots of lice. Allegedly.
Not allegedly, the purpose of cleaning of clothes or doing hair cutting is clear. They surely didn´t love it, how did you arrive to this conclusion, this is another logical fallacy, do you think that they loved to spend thousands of Reichsmark to clean clothing of Jews when their soldiers were dying because of lack of supply? Another mistake, camps were full of peoples not only of Jews.

OK change loved to rigourous, but why spend that money, why not burn the clothes on pyres and let the new arrivals have a wash? Why build lots of delousing and gas chambers when they needed the money on the front line? That is not logical to build and run and then destroy parts of a laundry service when it was not needed and had an innocuous purpose.

I don´t understand, when you burn cloths, what they will wear? They will be naked? Or they will wear only stripped uniform whole the time? Of course, new arrivals had wash, but water is not able to remove lices from hairs. Why Nessie? Simple, because they cared about their prisoners and didn´t want to kill them and this is strongly against extermination policy. At least, they cared about them, because they wanted to have labour force, and dead peoples can´t work. Of course this is logical, they build this to save lives, why? The main reason is propably labour force. What is destroyed? I don´t understand.
Nessie wrote:But lets say it is a morgue. So logic says that the Nazis must have been expecting a very high death toll to build a camp with such a huge morgue and crematorium. Do you agree with that logic Bob? So I can logic up explanations as well as you can Bob.
Yes, good approach and good start, but I see you are going to make incorrect conclusion "so they planned to murder of all Jews Bob", am I right? But that´s wrong, this conclusion is much more simply and logical and supported, there were horrible typhus epidemics, this is documented, if I remember this correctly, there were records of some 400 or 500 deaths per day, some months scored several thousands of dead peoples, so is logical that they planned the crematoria since the only crematoria was 3 kilometers far in Auschwitz main camp and was pretty small, maximum of 6 ovens. Does this make sense to you? Still wonder why they constructed large crematoria? They in 1943 even closed one crematoria in main camp, this is unlogical when they planned extermination and needed every capacity, right?

Did they build the morgues and crematorium before the start of the typhus epidemic or after?

Epidemics were already big problem when they started to construct crematoria and morgues, some worst period of epidemics were before the crematoria were finished, according to revisionists, all these thousands of deceased peoples were buried on specific locations since crematorium in main camp wasn´t able to handle this, so of course they were forced to somehow store or remove these bodies. Outdoor cremating was according to revisionists also used, is also shown on air photo near Krema V, is not possible to specify what they burn of course, but outdoor cremation is possible.
Nessie wrote:PS - if you tried to argue by logic in a criminal law case in a Scottish court, you would be reminded by the Sheriff that you are not in a philosophy class and to stick to presenting evidence, whether that is witness testimony or by productions (physical evidence) to establish your case. So we have a different definition as to how to conduct a legal case.
I did not say, that logic is the most important evidence, this is strawman Nessie, I said, that logic is common and one of the most important in courts, see my quote "one of the major criteria". If something does not make sense, the court would hardly ignore it. Of course, this depend on judges and the other peoples, if they are stupid, they can accept even evidence which is totally unlogical, logic require to be inteligent.

I did not say that logic is the most important evidence either. Logic is not evidence that you can present to a court.

Logic is one of the most important player which can easily reveal liars, contradictions and etc., I already mentioned it, when something doesn´t make sense, court will hardly ignore it. I did not say that you can come and say "Hey, lord, I have logic, my client is innocent"

Nessie, you forget to adress my questions about your "storage of clothing" theory.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:27 pm

It gets difficult to keep track of what has been answered and what has not :?

"Here is correct answer. If they stored cloths here, where are morgues for storing bodies? Why to store cloths here when the storage already existed in different place? Why to store it in basement when was much simplier to build storage room on ground level and save thousands of Reichsmarks? Why they constructed ventilation in cloth storage room? Why gas tight doors? Why they constructed elevator which lead to oven room? Why they call this room morgue in documents and plans, code word for "storage room for clothing"?"

Since the gas chamber is also a potential air raid shelter, why not store clothes in the mortuary? More than likely the whole room would not been given up to clothes, but since a mortuary is often used for stripping people and preparing them for burial/cremation there will have been clothes there.

They would presumably be taken from the bodies, stored for a time till delousing/cleaning in the gas chamber.

That does fit in with the possible uses of Krema II. But as for evidence of that happening, it would appear we have none, just like the gassing of people and the cleaning of clothes.

Can you prove to me the mortuary ever contained even one dead body?
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:05 pm

Nessie wrote:It gets difficult to keep track of what has been answered and what has not :?

"Here is correct answer. If they stored cloths here, where are morgues for storing bodies? Why to store cloths here when the storage already existed in different place? Why to store it in basement when was much simplier to build storage room on ground level and save thousands of Reichsmarks? Why they constructed ventilation in cloth storage room? Why gas tight doors? Why they constructed elevator which lead to oven room? Why they call this room morgue in documents and plans, code word for "storage room for clothing"?"

Since the gas chamber is also a potential air raid shelter, why not store clothes in the mortuary? More than likely the whole room would not been given up to clothes, but since a mortuary is often used for stripping people and preparing them for burial/cremation there will have been clothes there.

Alleged gas chamber in morgue I isn´t good air shelter since is allegedly used for gassing operations and there were allegedly holes in ceiling. Also the wooden door isn´t suitable for air raid shelter, shelters use steel door. I you want store cloth in mortuary adress my questions which refute your theory about storing cloths in mortuary. Not whole mortuary? So they wasted space? No need to store cloths in mortuary since they must be deloused in delousing chambers and storage for property already existed in different place. Adress my questions which you missed.You are correct in one point, they used room for undressing the bodies of deceased prisoners, this is supported by documents and with logic.


They would presumably be taken from the bodies, stored for a time till delousing/cleaning in the gas chamber.

Delousing chambers are in different places, not in Kremas.

That does fit in with the possible uses of Krema II. But as for evidence of that happening, it would appear we have none, just like the gassing of people and the cleaning of clothes.

Cloth storage don´t fit with use of Kremas as I pointed out with my questions, another problem is that your theory isn´t supported by documents or by testimonies.

Can you prove to me the mortuary ever contained even one dead body?

I already adressed this above in my comments.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:26 pm

I did seem odd to me when I read that a gas chamber could be used as an air raid shelter. Are you agreeing that at Krema II it has holes in the top of it?

If delousing takes place elsewhere than Krema II, then what is the gas chamber for?

I conceed that the mortuary is most likey to have been used for the storage of bodies before cremation. I was just showing how logic based on scant evidence can be used to come up all sorts of possible events.

Do we have any testimony that you agree upon as to how Krema II functioned?

Could we come up with an agreement on the process at Krema II, as in people arrived alive or dead at such and such a point, they went to the wash room/mortuary, their clothes went to, what went into the gas chamber, where people or bodies went afterwards.
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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:59 pm

Nessie wrote:I did seem odd to me when I read that a gas chamber could be used as an air raid shelter. Are you agreeing that at Krema II it has holes in the top of it?

This opinion is only minor and is not supported by documents, i know only testimony of Dr. Nyiszli who spoke about using it as air raid shelter. No, I do not agree with holes, their are part of official narrative and this is reason why I mentioned them, revisionists say, that they never existed as is clear from the roof of alleged gas chamber which is still in "good" condition.

If delousing takes place elsewhere than Krema II, then what is the gas chamber for?

I already said, that gas chamber in Krema II (Morgue 1) is according to revisionists only morgue also planned as emergency delousing chamber, but only emergency. Minor part of them also speaks about air raid shelter, for example Samuel Cromwell.

I conceed that the mortuary is most likey to have been used for the storage of bodies before cremation. I was just showing how logic based on scant evidence can be used to come up all sorts of possible events.

Your logic was wrong as I pointed out with my questions about your cloth sotrage theory. If you have some evidence or logical issues that morgues couldn´t or wasn´t served as morgues, present it here, no problem, I will adress it.

Do we have any testimony that you agree upon as to how Krema II functioned?

I don´t understand, if I have testimony about what function?

Could we come up with an agreement on the process at Krema II, as in people arrived alive or dead at such and such a point, they went to the wash room/mortuary, their clothes went to, what went into the gas chamber, where people or bodies went afterwards.

Revisionist theory is about storing bodies, someday also planned as delousing chamber and I agree, from my side no agreement about other use since the other uses are not supported, contradicting and unlogical.

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Re: Can you prove gassings of peoples in Krema II in Birkena

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:54 pm

Bob wrote:
......

If delousing takes place elsewhere than Krema II, then what is the gas chamber for?

I already said, that gas chamber in Krema II (Morgue 1) is according to revisionists only morgue also planned as emergency delousing chamber, but only emergency. Minor part of them also speaks about air raid shelter, for example Samuel Cromwell.

But you are struggling to prove any of those functions are you not?

......

Do we have any testimony that you agree upon as to how Krema II functioned?

I don´t understand, if I have testimony about what function?

I know you against witness testimony, but do you have any to support your revisionist belief of the use of Krema II?

Could we come up with an agreement on the process at Krema II, as in people arrived alive or dead at such and such a point, they went to the wash room/mortuary, their clothes went to, what went into the gas chamber, where people or bodies went afterwards.

Revisionist theory is about storing bodies, someday also planned as delousing chamber and I agree, from my side no agreement about other use since the other uses are not supported, contradicting and unlogical.
[/quote]

But you lack evidence for the above and logic also allows for humans to have been gassed there.
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