Can you show me some proof/s?

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Bob
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:56 pm

Nessie wrote:
More evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_% ... episode%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty of eye witness accounts, photographs and films of concentration camps. Then this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/holocaust/5115.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

an eyewitness account at Belsen.
Can you adress my questions?

I have that episode directly on my HDD, can you quote something? Bock/Boch? Vrba? Hoettl? Paisikowic? You choose.

Plenty? I hear this everytime, everybody reply with "plenty of photos, accounts, films" but I would like to see some concrete thing, not only claim. I don´t see any here.

Belsen was deathcamp?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:00 pm

Eyewitness evidence such as by Kurt Gerstein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gerstein" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which interestingly also accounts for some of the exaggerations of what went on during the Holocaust.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:02 pm

Please, choose some photo or photos, I see several photos, so you claim that every dead human from you link was murdered?
They are all jews?
They are all gassed?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:07 pm

Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
More evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_% ... episode%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty of eye witness accounts, photographs and films of concentration camps. Then this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/holocaust/5115.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

an eyewitness account at Belsen.
Can you adress my questions?

I have that episode directly on my HDD, can you quote something? Bock/Boch? Vrba? Hoettl? Paisikowic? You choose.

Plenty? I hear this everytime, everybody reply with "plenty of photos, accounts, films" but I would like to see some concrete thing, not only claim. I don´t see any here.

Belsen was deathcamp?
I am now lost as to what you count as evidence. You as for just one gram of evidence and we provide it by means of images, films and testimony. But then you as for evidence again :?

If you have the episode of World At War to hand, why do I need to quote from it? I present it to you in its entirety as evidence.

You ask 'Belsen was a death camp?' For what it is worth yes and here are various images to show that

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=belsen ... 66&bih=639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:09 pm

Bob wrote:
Please, choose some photo or photos, I see several photos, so you claim that every dead human from you link was murdered?
They are all jews?
They are all gassed?
Even if they were not murdered or gassed, Jews often did not die a natural death whilst under Nazi rule

http://history1900s.about.com/library/h ... nsatz7.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
......

I would be content with just one gram of evidence or proof.

........

Then the evidence I have presented to you is easily enough to prove a Holocaust took place where Jews were murdered by Nazis in camps during WWII.
Sorry, but you speak only generally about plenty of evidence, but you didn´t adress my questions and you didn´t provide concrete evidence. You posted account from Belsen, but Belsen is deathcamp or extermination camp that you provide it?

Nessie wrote:Eyewitness evidence such as by Kurt Gerstein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gerstein" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which interestingly also accounts for some of the exaggerations of what went on during the Holocaust.
Great so:
-The people stand on each other's feet. 700 - 800 on 25 square metres, in 45 cubic metres! The SS physically squeezes them together, as far as is possible.
-the diesel starts.
-Until this moment the people live in these 4 chambers, four times 750 people in 4 times 45 cubic metres! Again 25 minutes pass. Right, many are dead now. One can see that through the small window in which the electric light illuminates the chambers for a moment. After 28 minutes only a few are still alive. Finally, after 32 minutes, everyone is dead!
-The people are brought to death with the diesel exhaust fumes
-But the diesel doesn't work! Hauptmann Wirth comes. One can see that he feels embarrassed that that happens just today, when I am here. That's right, I see everything! And I wait. My stop watch has honestly registered everything. 50 minutes, 70 minutes [?] - the diesel doesn't start! The people are waiting in their gas chambers.
http://www.deathcamps.org/belzec/gerstein.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jus a few quotes, you believe this man and consider him as reliable that you used him as source?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 pm

Nessie wrote:
Bob wrote:
Nessie wrote:
More evidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_% ... episode%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plenty of eye witness accounts, photographs and films of concentration camps. Then this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/holocaust/5115.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

an eyewitness account at Belsen.
Can you adress my questions?

I have that episode directly on my HDD, can you quote something? Bock/Boch? Vrba? Hoettl? Paisikowic? You choose.

Plenty? I hear this everytime, everybody reply with "plenty of photos, accounts, films" but I would like to see some concrete thing, not only claim. I don´t see any here.

Belsen was deathcamp?
I am now lost as to what you count as evidence. You as for just one gram of evidence and we provide it by means of images, films and testimony. But then you as for evidence again :?

If you have the episode of World At War to hand, why do I need to quote from it? I present it to you in its entirety as evidence.

You ask 'Belsen was a death camp?' For what it is worth yes and here are various images to show that

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=belsen ... 66&bih=639" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I count as evidence everything which can stand critique analysis, other testimonies, material evidence, logic, science and so on, sound plausible? That´s how it work during correct trials.

I have that episode, but I don´t believe this people what they say because it didn´t pass the above method. So, please, quote something, maybe I was wrong.

These peoples in Belsen are gassed Jews?
Or murdered Jews?
Or they died during horrible conditions at the end of war, becuase of oveloaded camp, because of typhus?
What mortality did this camp have before toward the end of the war?
How many of them died after liberation in British hands?
Why Josef Kramer did not escaped before the British captured Belsen, when he was commandant of alleged deathcamp where the peoples/jews were allegedly murdered on enourmous scale?
Why did he and the others waited for liberation instead of escape to avoid being treated as war criminal who is allegedly responsible for gassings in Auschwitz and for murdering in Belsen?

EDIT -Was a gas chamber or gas chambers in Belsen?

Adress my questions, here are plenty of them, what you claim does not make any sense.

edit - minor grammar errors.

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irrefutable proof

Post by David » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I think that this is a good place for my questions.
1)Can you show me proof or proofs, that Jews were gassed in nazi gas chambers?
Can I start with Treblinka II? Do you know where Treblinka II is?
Hello Bob-
Here is a secret report Official Report Submitted to the Polish Government that proves the Holocaust. Note that
it was endorsed by MRS. ELEANOR ROOSEVELT and
PROFESSOR ALBERT EINSTEIN, among others.

quote-

According to the report of an eyewitness, the interior of the building is as follows: a corridor 3 meters wide runs through the middle; there are five chambers on each side; the height of each chamber is about 2 meters; the area about 35 square meters. The execution chambers are without windows, but they have doors opening on the corridor and a type of valve on the outside walls. Next to these valves there are large scoops (they remind one of large vessels). In the walls pipes were installed from which water-steam is supposed to pour into the chambers. This was to have been death-house No. 2.

A path skirts the building and runs along its western wall finally ending at the next building near death-house No. 1. This building is at right angles to the death-house No. 2. It is a brick construction much smaller than the other. It consists of only three chambers and a steam-room. Along the northern wall of this house runs a corridor from which there are doors to the chambers. The outside walls of the chambers
...
have valves (until recently doors which had been changed into valves for utility reasons). Also here a scoop in the shape of a shallow vessel is placed at the height of the valves. The steam-room is adjacent to the building. Inside the steam-room there is a large vat which produces the steam. The hot steam comes into the chambers through pipes installed there, each having the prescribed number of vents. While this machinery of death is in action, the doors and valves are hermetically closed. The floor in the chambers has a terra-cotta inlay which becomes very slippery when water is poured over it. There is a well next to the steam-room, the only well in the whole area of Treblinka B. Not far from the death-house, south of the barbed-wire and wooden fences, there is a grave-diggers' camp. The grave-diggers live in barracks next to which are the kitchen buildings. On both sides of the camp there are two guard-houses. The remaining area of Treblinka B is destined for the murdered victims. A part of that area is already a large cemetery. At first, Poles employed in the camps dug the graves; later, as the slaughter was intensified and the need for more ditches grew, special digging-machines (bulldozers) were brought, which run day and night at grave-digging. A Diesel-motor supplies the energy and its rattle is a characteristic sound at Treblinka B....
This is irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror wielded over their victims by the Germans.
The new death-house provides for the liquidation of 8,000 to 10,000 victims. If we consider that right now 2,000,000 murdered Jews, or the greater part of Polish Jewry, are already buried in the area of Treblinka, the disturbing question arises: for whom do the S.S.-men intend that new house of death; who are to utter their last breaths in that slaughter-house? Most probably the death-machine, once started, will not limit itself to murdering Jews. At present, the specter of death in steam chambers rises before the Polish population; there have already been some signs of it: according to a report of an eyewitness, the Germans exterminated a group of Poles in death-house No. 1, in the second half of August. ...

You should study and learn the details of the "EINSTEIN Report."
http://www.xoxol.org/dem/blackbook01.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


As it says, "This is irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror wielded over their victims by the Germans."

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Re: irrefutable proof

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:57 pm

David wrote: As it says, "This is irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror wielded over their victims by the Germans."
Hello David, yes, I know this document, but I don´t believe it since it can stand critical analysis and of course, it is only document, I don´t see any supporting evidence behind.

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Re: irrefutable proof

Post by David » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:15 pm

Bob wrote:
David wrote: As it says, "This is irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror wielded over their victims by the Germans."
Hello David, yes, I know this document, but I don´t believe it since it can stand critical analysis and of course, it is only document, I don´t see any supporting evidence behind.
Well it says it is "irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror" so it must be.
And then it was believed by Albert Einstein...so it must be.
And it was a report to the Polish government (at least the government until the British dumped them).

and note the detail of the Report...the mass executions exactly
"lasted from 7:30 to 3 P.M.|" This was undoubtedly to save Steam.
The brinks to build the steam chamber came from the "Umschlagplatz"
Guess what that is? the "the Umschlagplatz (German: collection point or reloading point) in the Warsaw Ghetto was where Jews gathered for deportation to the Treblinka extermination camp." What an amazing coincidence if the eye witness report
were not true!

And there is even a German name for the place where the mountains of
clothes were sorted, "Lumpensortierungsplatz."

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Re: irrefutable proof

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:42 pm

David wrote:
Bob wrote:
David wrote: As it says, "This is irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror wielded over their victims by the Germans."
Hello David, yes, I know this document, but I don´t believe it since it can stand critical analysis and of course, it is only document, I don´t see any supporting evidence behind.
Well it says it is "irrefutable proof of the atrocious terror" so it must be.
And then it was believed by Albert Einstein...so it must be.
And it was a report to the Polish government (at least the government until the British dumped them).

and note the detail of the Report...the mass executions exactly
"lasted from 7:30 to 3 P.M.|" This was undoubtedly to save Steam.
The brinks to build the steam chamber came from the "Umschlagplatz"
Guess what that is? the "the Umschlagplatz (German: collection point or reloading point) in the Warsaw Ghetto was where Jews gathered for deportation to the Treblinka extermination camp." What an amazing coincidence if the eye witness report
were not true!

And there is even a German name for the place where the mountains of
clothes were sorted, "Lumpensortierungsplatz."
Maybe they wanted to save some "black substance" (Alexander Pechersky, I know, this was allegedly in Sobibor, but fun is fun) or they wanted to avoid leaks of "vakuum" (Grossman)

Propably the same mountains as Gerstein saw them with his own serious eyes:
-"veritable mounds of clothing and underwear, 115 to 130 feet high."

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning/540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Please, note that ARC page removed this fantastic claim, or they maybe used different version, who knows.

Still wait for proof. I will give it some time since I didn´t plan to stay here much long because it is very time consuming to discuss this issue when nobody want to adress questions, but I still think that nobody will provide me with proof.

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Waste of time

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:43 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Have you read any books on the subject at all yet? Please list the books you have read so you know my quotes will be in context.
Bob wrote:Yes, I am generally interested in this subject which require reading books. No problem Matthew, you can provide me with quotes, context is no problem, I have knowledge about the subject.
In other words, you want me to spend time to set out all the evidence for gas chambers from scratch although you have the actual reference books and citations in front of you......but you are not willing to simply say what books you have read and set out your problem with the existing evidence in these same books.

Why waste time? Set out in point form your reasons to be skeptical against specific evidence supplied by conventional historians.

Bob wrote:Regarding the above article, are you familiar with this warning?
deathcamps.org wrote:Unauthorized links to our website from the controversial and grossly inaccurate hate blog postings of the following persons:
Roberto Muehlenkamp - Sergey Romanov - Dr. Nick Terry
Are not condoned by ARC. We maintain no connection to Holocaust hate blogs, and would caution all to avoid being misled by these individuals.
http://www.deathcamps.org/dedication/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes. When I saw this a year or so ago, I spent some time researching what was going on and asked Roberto in a PM, if my understanding of the events was correct. I have learnt buckets from Roberto and Dr Terry and hold them in high respect. Obviously you are well read in holocaust denier blogs and activities, and your innocent opening post question was just a feint to bring up point by point denial crap already dealt with on the H.C. forum.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:56 pm

Nessie wrote:Being new to this debate I find it puzzling why the above questions are not easily answered, so pulling the rug from under the denier's feet a long time ago so threads like this would never even get started.
The questions are easily answered, but that's not what is going on here. "Bob" won't say what he has read, nor will he say which specific pieces of evidence he denies or refutes or why. "Bob" is simply having a knee jerk reaction to the release of
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Bob" the holocaust denier is doing what "David" the holocaust denier does. They get destroyed in another post or forum, wait a month or so and start posting again from scratch making the same debunked claims.

This forum isn't an education centre. It's a skeptic forum. If Bob is skeptical about some of the evidence then let him say what it is rather than ask us to explain convention history to him from the beginning.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Sergey Romanov wrote:My dear Bob, it is all too ironic that you would ask for "no ad hominem" in the OP, yet you would proceed with pure ad hominem about some "warning"
доброе утро Sergey. It seems that "Bob" has some history with your team and "Bob" is one of those holocaust deniers who asks everything to be explained to him but refuses to write down his "big picture" of what he thinks happened. Rather than waste time I will wait for "Bob" to detail what specific evidence he is skeptical about and deal with those issues. As you probably already know his "form" please drop in now and then and help me if you have time.

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Re: Waste of time

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:13 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: Have you read any books on the subject at all yet? Please list the books you have read so you know my quotes will be in context.
Bob wrote:Yes, I am generally interested in this subject which require reading books. No problem Matthew, you can provide me with quotes, context is no problem, I have knowledge about the subject.
In other words, you want me to spend time to set out all the evidence for gas chambers from scratch although you have the actual reference books and citations in front of you......but you are not willing to simply say what books you have read and set out your problem with the existing evidence in these same books.

Why waste time? Set out in point form your reasons to be skeptical against specific evidence supplied by conventional historians.

Bob wrote:Regarding the above article, are you familiar with this warning?
deathcamps.org wrote:Unauthorized links to our website from the controversial and grossly inaccurate hate blog postings of the following persons:
Roberto Muehlenkamp - Sergey Romanov - Dr. Nick Terry
Are not condoned by ARC. We maintain no connection to Holocaust hate blogs, and would caution all to avoid being misled by these individuals.
http://www.deathcamps.org/dedication/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes. When I saw this a year or so ago, I spent some time researching what was going on and asked Roberto in a PM, if my understanding of the events was correct. I have learnt buckets from Roberto and Dr Terry and hold them in high respect. Obviously you are well read in holocaust denier blogs and activities, and your innocent opening post question was just a feint to bring up point by point denial crap already dealt with on the H.C. forum.
Matthew, I have no problem with it, but I don´t want to pick up some "proofs" and refute them since you could say "you just selectively pick what you want". So I decided to wait for your proofs and then start to question them, I think this is fair and I will stick with it.

Yes, I am familiar with this topic as you propably recognized from "all" sides since i don´t care if the revisionists are right or if HCbloggers are right or if exterminationists are right, I want to know truth, no who is the winner of this clash. I but cannot present any proof form the books, since I didn´t see any, you believe in it, you should provide some and then i will tell you if I am sceptical.

I don´t want you to spend time, is it up to you if you want to spend some time.

Ok, you know about existence of that warning, that is all what I wanted to know. Questions are still unanswered and they are really innocent, for everyone who consider it as 100% truth and fact, should be no problem to answer them.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Nessie wrote:Being new to this debate I find it puzzling why the above questions are not easily answered, so pulling the rug from under the denier's feet a long time ago so threads like this would never even get started.
The questions are easily answered, but that's not what is going on here. "Bob" won't say what he has read, nor will he say which specific pieces of evidence he denies or refutes or why. "Bob" is simply having a knee jerk reaction to the release of
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... .html#more" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Bob" the holocaust denier is doing what "David" the holocaust denier does. They get destroyed in another post or forum, wait a month or so and start posting again from scratch making the same debunked claims.

This forum isn't an education centre. It's a skeptic forum. If Bob is skeptical about some of the evidence then let him say what it is rather than ask us to explain convention history to him from the beginning.
Maybe you can try to answer my questions instead of ad hominems please. Also I answered your question as being not a denier.
Matthew Ellard wrote:The questions are easily answered
Yeah, I see.
Matthew Ellard wrote:It seems that "Bob" has some history with your team and "Bob" is one of those holocaust deniers who asks everything to be explained to him but refuses to write down his "big picture" of what he thinks happened. Rather than waste time I will wait for "Bob" to detail what specific evidence he is skeptical about and deal with those issues. As you probably already know his "form" please drop in now and then and help me if you have time.
I don´t have any history with peoples from HCblog, but of course, when I saw warnings about them, I googled information about it. If you want to respond me, stay on topic please.

If I got it right, you cannot answer them since this is not educational forum, ok, I respect it, I was misinterpreted by you first reaciton, you lookd like you are going to "throw" a tons of proofs on me, never mind, anyway, thanks for your effort.

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Re: Waste of time

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:29 pm

Bob wrote: Matthew, I have no problem with it, but I don´t want to pick up some "proofs" and refute them since you could say "you just selectively pick what you want". So I decided to wait for your proofs and then start to question them, I think this is fair and I will stick with it.
Nope.. This is not an education forum. I do not have to spend hours explaining basic history from sctatch to you like I do with "David". If there is specific evidence for the conventional historic view of the holocaust, that you think is wrong, then say what it is. Why waste time?
Bob wrote: i don´t care if the revisionists are right or if HCbloggers are right or if exterminationists are right, I want to know truth, no who is the winner of this clash. I but cannot present any proof form the books, since I didn´t see any, you believe in it, you should provide some and then i will tell you if I am sceptical.
So you have read various books on the holocaust and have not seen any proof one way or the other. Good for you. Go do some further research. If you think the Hofle Telegram is forged, Stangl is lying and Justice Łukaszkiewicz was part of a jewish/communist conspiracy, then simply say so.

Bob wrote: If I got it right, you cannot answer them since this is not educational forum, ok, I respect it, I was misinterpreted by you first reaciton, you lookd like you are going to "throw" a tons of proofs on me, never mind, anyway, thanks for your effort.
Read Arad and then come back with specific points. If you can't be bothered doing that then go away.

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Re: Waste of time

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Matthew, I have no problem with it, but I don´t want to pick up some "proofs" and refute them since you could say "you just selectively pick what you want". So I decided to wait for your proofs and then start to question them, I think this is fair and I will stick with it.
Nope.. This is not an education forum. I do not have to spend hours explaining basic history from sctatch to you like I do with "David". If there is specific evidence for the conventional historic view of the holocaust, that you think is wrong, then say what it is. Why waste time?
Bob wrote: i don´t care if the revisionists are right or if HCbloggers are right or if exterminationists are right, I want to know truth, no who is the winner of this clash. I but cannot present any proof form the books, since I didn´t see any, you believe in it, you should provide some and then i will tell you if I am sceptical.
So you have read various books on the holocaust and have not seen any proof one way or the other. Good for you. Go do some further research. If you think the Hofle Telegram is forged, Stangl is lying and Justice Łukaszkiewicz was part of a jewish/communist conspiracy, then simply say so.

Bob wrote: If I got it right, you cannot answer them since this is not educational forum, ok, I respect it, I was misinterpreted by you first reaciton, you lookd like you are going to "throw" a tons of proofs on me, never mind, anyway, thanks for your effort.
Read Arad and then come back with specific points. If you can't be bothered doing that then go away.
I didn´t ask for basic knowledge, I asked for the best proof which you can provide me, no need to teach me basics, I think that you only use excuses.

No problem, show me how this telegram can answer my questions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... legram.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Show me how Franz Stangl answered to my questions.

What did Łukaszkiewicz find? Tell me instead of assuming what I didn´t say.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:36 am

Public Service Announcement to any new readers: don't bother with "Bob" until he answers the evidence laid out at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:26 am

Sergey Romanov wrote:Public Service Announcement to any new readers: don't bother with "Bob" until he answers the evidence laid out at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I already adressed your article when I repeatedly stated "i didn´t find any proof in your article, if you disagree, quote some proof here from your article" .Your article isn´t nothing new and I cannot answer an evidence which I don´t see. You can start answering my three questions and then you can answer my 13 questions adressed to you.

I am curious if you are going to post your link with "evidence" again.

Almost 60 comments, and not even one proof posted, this is more interesting than I expected.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:40 am

Evolution Denier: You say that species A evolved from species B, if that is true, show me the missing link between A and B. If you can't evolution is disproven!

... later

Evolution Denier: Ok you showed me the link between A and B is species AB, but if evolution is really true, where is the missing link between A and AB? If you can't evolution is disproven!

... later

Evolution Denier: Ok you showed me the link between A and AB is species ABb, but if evolution is really true, where is the missing link between A and ABb? If you can't evolution is disproven!


and so it goes...
My name is not Donna.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:56 am

Donnageddon wrote:Evolution Denier: You say that species A evolved from species B, if that is true, show me the missing link between A and B. If you can't evolution is disproven!

... later

Evolution Denier: Ok you showed me the link between A and B is species AB, but if evolution is really true, where is the missing link between A and AB? If you can't evolution is disproven!

... later

Evolution Denier: Ok you showed me the link between A and AB is species ABb, but if evolution is really true, where is the missing link between A and ABb? If you can't evolution is disproven!


and so it goes...
Hm, nice illusion, I will try it too:

Murder believer: I believe that my neighbour killed someone, I saw him in the garden (A) and I saw him with dirty cloths(B) but of course, some deniers will insist to show them bodies, some graves, some murder weapons and similar nonsenses which aren´t needed to connect A and B together, but they are too ignorat to understand that A and B is enough to prove his undoubtebly guilt.

Well, problem is Donnageddon that we are not talking about some evolution about existence of God or Santa, but about accustion of the biggest crime which ever allegedly occured, so I don´t know what you are trying to say with your post, maybe you can adress some question, thanks.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:35 am

No thanks, Bob. I gave up arguing with brick walls a long time ago.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:41 am

Donnageddon wrote:No thanks, Bob. I gave up arguing with brick walls a long time ago.
Thanks anyway for your interesting contribution to the subject of this thread.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:48 am

Bob wrote:
Please, choose some photo or photos, I see several photos, so you claim that every dead human from you link was murdered?
They are all jews?
They are all gassed?
i dont need to choose any photos at all.... nor am i going to.

point out where i claimed anything? i have not claimed a single thing, you asked for evidence and i gave you a link, not my fault if youre far too lazy to look through them and read the captions etc.

again, its not my job to do anything, and why would i waste my time when its blatantly obvious that you arent goinjg to accept any evidence whatsoever and also blatantly obvious that youve already made your mind up.

again ill state the obvious for you, its impossible for me to prove that any of those photos are what they claim to be as i dont have a time machine and i cant take you back in time to when the pictures were taken so you can witness the incidents taking place, you know this and thats why youre playing this silly game, also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them, i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways, i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them, but just because i cant do such a thing does not mean any of these events didnt take place, theres plenty of evidence, its up to YOU to read that evidence and up to YOU wether you accept it or not.

now stop being silly.....

thanks

rich

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:24 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:
Bob wrote:
Please, choose some photo or photos, I see several photos, so you claim that every dead human from you link was murdered?
They are all jews?
They are all gassed?
i dont need to choose any photos at all.... nor am i going to.

point out where i claimed anything? i have not claimed a single thing, you asked for evidence and i gave you a link, not my fault if youre far too lazy to look through them and read the captions etc.

again, its not my job to do anything, and why would i waste my time when its blatantly obvious that you arent goinjg to accept any evidence whatsoever and also blatantly obvious that youve already made your mind up.

again ill state the obvious for you, its impossible for me to prove that any of those photos are what they claim to be as i dont have a time machine and i cant take you back in time to when the pictures were taken so you can witness the incidents taking place, you know this and thats why youre playing this silly game, also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them, i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways, i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them, but just because i cant do such a thing does not mean any of these events didnt take place, theres plenty of evidence, its up to YOU to read that evidence and up to YOU wether you accept it or not.

now stop being silly.....

thanks

rich
I asked
1)Can you show me proof or proofs, that Jews were gassed in nazi gas chambers?
2)Can you show me proof or proofs, that nazis had policy to physically exterminate all Jews?
3)Can you show me proof or proofs that nazis physically exterminated six million Jews and additional five or six million non-Jews?
You replied
I asked
Please, choose some photo or photos, I see several photos, so you claim that every dead human from you link was murdered?
They are all jews?
They are all gassed?
You replied
i dont need to choose any photos at all.... nor am i going to.
point out where i claimed anything? i have not claimed a single thing, you asked for evidence and i gave you a link, not my fault if youre far too lazy to look through them and read the captions etc.
So tell me please, why did you posted that link as the answer to my question? You said that you didn´t claimed single thing, but you use this link as the answer to my questions, so the only three possibilities here

1)Link show gassed Jews
2)Link show policy to exterminate Jews.
3)Link show Jews victims which are included in six million figure.
To which question you have replied?

If you didn´t want to claim anything, why did you posted this link as an answer to my questions? I saw them all, but how could I know what you consider as proof from them? Just choose some and tell me if you see gassed/murdered Jews, which were gassed via extermination state policy in camps.

If you didn´t want to claim anything, I don´t understand why you posted your link.

Regarding he caption, few examples which aren´t directly relative to your link, which one is correct?
This?
Photograph from the Arnold Bauer Barach Collection, courtesy of USHMM Photo Archives.
A mass grave in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. (May 1, 1945)
http://history1900s.about.com/library/h ... oner19.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or this?
Photo of typhus victims, taken following the British occupation of the concentration camp Bergen-Belsen and published as 'victims of Auschwitz' in various periodicals, eg. Quick in 1979.
http://www.vho.org/D/gzz/WalendyBelsenQuick.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This?
transports into ghettos and extermination camps, in H. Eschwege, Kennzeichen J, Berlin: Deutscher Verlag der Wissenschaften, 1981.
http://www.codoh.com/graphics/fnduw5a.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or This?
Freight trains full of refugees, 1946. Crowded freight train bound for the Ruhr region. Background, double-decker train to Lübeck." The unretouched original photo, Illustration 5b, hangs in the Hamburg Main Station.
http://www.codoh.com/graphics/fnduw5b.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This?
bodies of almost 3,000 slave laborers in Nordhausen (allegedly murder, beaten, starvated)May 21, 1945 issue of the American magazine Life
http://www.codoh.com/graphics/fnduw2.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or this?
M. Broszat and others have determined that these dead concentration camp inmates were victims of an Allied air raid (M. Broszat, Studien zur Geschichte der Konzentrationslager, Stuttgart: Schriftenreihe der Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, No. 21, 1970, pp. 194f.; cf. U. Walendy, HT No. 34, 1988, p. 37. )
http://www.codoh.com/graphics/fnduw2.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please tell me if you believe in every photo and in every caption. If you not, tell me how can you recognize false caption?

Because I am still silly for you as you used again this ad hominem, please, tell me which caption is correct since you look like a man of experience.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:again ill state the obvious for you, its impossible for me to prove that any of those photos are what they claim to be
Thanks for admiting it, I have the same opinion, isn´t possible to prove captions and what the photo allegedly show (of course not generally, something can be proved) I did not expected such a honesty from believer.

So, little summary, all what you provided as an answer are only the photos, but you admited that you don´t know if the captions are correct or what they truly show, but you posted them anyway, hm hm.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:04 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote: again ill state the obvious for you, its impossible for me to prove that any of those photos are what they claim to be as i dont have a time machine and i cant take you back in time to when the pictures were taken so you can witness the incidents taking place, you know this and thats why youre playing this silly game, also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them, i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways, i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them, but just because i cant do such a thing does not mean any of these events didnt take place, theres plenty of evidence, its up to YOU to read that evidence and up to YOU wether you accept it or not.

now stop being silly.....

thanks

rich
I forgot to adress your points.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them
You don´t have too, I saw it in video, I know the location of WWC, I know that video isn´t forgery and it clearly show planes on correct verifiable location, eye witnesses converge their testimonies, all saw planes, nobody saw helicopters or baloons, no problem., so no doubt, that planes crashed to WWC. Regarding the Pentagon, I don´t believe in plane theory.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote: i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways,
You don´t have too, we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves. Much better than what we have about the alleged gassing or extermination which took place "only" 67years ago, don´t you think?
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them
You don´t have too, I am not much skilled in this topic, but we have archeological reports and of course, in this time, this is the most logical explanation, use occam´s razor, they are of human origins because this is the most credible and logical explanation since claims about the aliens are associated with more complicated problems, and on this planet, there aren´t no other species of capable of building pyramids.

And of course, I don´t care about it, we are talking about the alleged biggest crime in history and because of it, lot of people were sentenced to death or in prison and etc. Stay on topic, these excuses don´t impress me, I explained all of your excuses.

Heh, interesting examples anyway, most of the believers use quite often "how do you know that Earth is "spherical"? when I explain all the proofs to them, they usually don´t know what to say, so next wave of ad hominems come almost immediately.

Try to use better examples or (which is better) adress my questions with proper answers. If you don´t want to, never mind, I can´t force you, but you can stop to call me silly since you aren´t clearly much educated about topic or "logic friendly", I respect that you believe it anyway, but this give you no right to attack me, just respect my non-believing status.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:59 am

Bob wrote:
Heh, interesting examples anyway, most of the believers use quite often "how do you know that Earth is "spherical"? when I explain all the proofs to them, they usually don´t know what to say, so next wave of ad hominems come almost immediately.
Heh, most of the Holocaust Deniers use quite often "how do you know that Nazi's embarked on genocide"? when I explain all the proofs to them, they usually don´t know what to say, so next wave of ad hominems come almost immediately.
Bob wrote: I respect that you believe it anyway, but this give you no right to attack me, just respect my non-believing status.
Bob your "non-believer status" is given all the respect it deserves.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:04 am

@bob....

you call me a believer? what? really/ believer in what exactly? ive never ever stated my opinion or stance regarding ww2 or the holocaust in my life so where did you get that idea from? oh wait, i know where you got it from, the same place you got the rest of the rubbish from you posted when twisting my words.....

you asked for evidence, so i posted a link to some evidence, again i did NOT make any claim whatsoever, i linked to some evidence for which you are then free to read and free to check up on to either verify or falsify and make up your own mind wether to accept it or not.

and no i didnt admit to anything... and just to make a point....

prove to me that 9/11 was done by some saudi terrorists?

prove to me that the videos were real and not faked?

prove to me that the photos are real, from that date and of that event?

prove to me that the bones you saw were from dinosaurs?

prove to me that the videos and other evidence are real, and scientifically valid?

prove to me that the alleged dinosaur bones you saw were real bones and from that era?

prove to me that the egyptians built the pyramids?

you see where im going with this?........

and anyway, im glad you called me and the rest of us "believers" because that basically outs you for exactly what you are and what your stance is (not that it wasn't blatantly obvious already), so now you can cut the crappy pretence of acting like a fence sitting interested party just looking for evidence....

why are you even here wasting everyone's time including your own?...

thanks

rich

btw. this thread stinks of sweaty sock!
Last edited by RICH-ENGLAND on Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Gord » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:14 am

Bob wrote:...we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:prove to me that the bones you saw were from dinosaurs?
Never mind that, ask him to show you a cave drawing of a dinosaur! :mrgreen:
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:35 am

Bob wrote:
RICH-ENGLAND wrote: again ill state the obvious for you, its impossible for me to prove that any of those photos are what they claim to be as i dont have a time machine and i cant take you back in time to when the pictures were taken so you can witness the incidents taking place, you know this and thats why youre playing this silly game, also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them, i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways, i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them, but just because i cant do such a thing does not mean any of these events didnt take place, theres plenty of evidence, its up to YOU to read that evidence and up to YOU wether you accept it or not.

now stop being silly.....

thanks

rich
I forgot to adress your points.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:also i cant take you back to 9/11 and put you on the planes so you can witness the alleged highjackers taking the planes and crashing them
You don´t have too, I saw it in video, I know the location of WWC, I know that video isn´t forgery and it clearly show planes on correct verifiable location, eye witnesses converge their testimonies, all saw planes, nobody saw helicopters or baloons, no problem., so no doubt, that planes crashed to WWC. Regarding the Pentagon, I don´t believe in plane theory.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote: i also cant take you back in time to the dinosaur era and show you first hand that they existed or died in certain ways,
You don´t have too, we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves. Much better than what we have about the alleged gassing or extermination which took place "only" 67years ago, don´t you think?
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:i also cant take you back to when the pyramids were built and show you that the egyptians made them
You don´t have too, I am not much skilled in this topic, but we have archeological reports and of course, in this time, this is the most logical explanation, use occam´s razor, they are of human origins because this is the most credible and logical explanation since claims about the aliens are associated with more complicated problems, and on this planet, there aren´t no other species of capable of building pyramids.

And of course, I don´t care about it, we are talking about the alleged biggest crime in history and because of it, lot of people were sentenced to death or in prison and etc. Stay on topic, these excuses don´t impress me, I explained all of your excuses.

Heh, interesting examples anyway, most of the believers use quite often "how do you know that Earth is "spherical"? when I explain all the proofs to them, they usually don´t know what to say, so next wave of ad hominems come almost immediately.

Try to use better examples or (which is better) adress my questions with proper answers. If you don´t want to, never mind, I can´t force you, but you can stop to call me silly since you aren´t clearly much educated about topic or "logic friendly", I respect that you believe it anyway, but this give you no right to attack me, just respect my non-believing status.
This is where I wonder if there is any point of even trying to answer your original questions as your idea of proof varies depending on the subject. Regarding dinosaurs and "we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves" and that is accepted. Regarding the Holocaust and we have bones, skeletons, forensic reports, the original plans of the camps and additional proofs such as photos and film and then we also have eyewitness evidence on top of that, and that is not accepted. :?
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:53 am

A repeat Public Service Announcement to any new readers: don't bother with "Bob" until he answers the evidence laid out at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So far he has stonewalled it, by saying it offers no evidence, but failed to actually engage the arguments.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:02 pm

Sergey Romanov wrote:A repeat Public Service Announcement to any new readers: don't bother with "Bob" until he answers the evidence laid out at http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So far he has stonewalled it, by saying it offers no evidence, but failed to actually engage the arguments.
For Bob and me, I have read through much of the site and other sites and I have just finished a book about the Holocaust, but I cannot find specific answers, only general ones.

Can you assist me an show me links that directly answer Bob's questions?

Thanks.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:11 pm

but I cannot find specific answers, only general ones.
Mighty weird, aint't it? For example, much of the several first chapters is devoted to the evolution of the Nazi extermination policies, with many specific direct quotations by the Nazis that show that the Nazis did have extermination policies towards Jews. Yet you claim here that you "cannot find specific answers". I'm afraid that either you haven't actually read the book, or you're being disingenuous for some unknown reason. Same for "Bob".

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:02 pm

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:@bob....

you call me a believer? what? really/ believer in what exactly? ive never ever stated my opinion or stance regarding ww2 or the holocaust in my life so where did you get that idea from? oh wait, i know where you got it from, the same place you got the rest of the rubbish from you posted when twisting my words.....

you asked for evidence, so i posted a link to some evidence, again i did NOT make any claim whatsoever, i linked to some evidence for which you are then free to read and free to check up on to either verify or falsify and make up your own mind wether to accept it or not.

and no i didnt admit to anything... and just to make a point....

prove to me that 9/11 was done by some saudi terrorists?

prove to me that the videos were real and not faked?

prove to me that the photos are real, from that date and of that event?

prove to me that the bones you saw were from dinosaurs?

prove to me that the videos and other evidence are real, and scientifically valid?

prove to me that the alleged dinosaur bones you saw were real bones and from that era?

prove to me that the egyptians built the pyramids?

you see where im going with this?........

and anyway, im glad you called me and the rest of us "believers" because that basically outs you for exactly what you are and what your stance is (not that it wasn't blatantly obvious already), so now you can cut the crappy pretence of acting like a fence sitting interested party just looking for evidence....

why are you even here wasting everyone's time including your own?...

thanks

rich

btw. this thread stinks of sweaty sock!
Ok, I am sorry If I called you believer which I didn´t cause I wrote "I respect that you believe it anyway", so you want to tell me that you don´t believe in it and this sentence was incorrect from me?

You made good point, it cannot be proved that captions are correct and photos show exactly what they show. Good point, that´s all what I have said about your point.

prove to me that 9/11 was done by some saudi terrorists?
You didn´t wrote anything about who crashed planes, but if plane crashed, now you try to twist it? No problem I don´t believe in this version since It wasn´t proved to me and doesn´t make any sense to me. Try better example next time.

Did I said that the saudi terrorists are responsible for attacks?

prove to me that the videos were real and not faked?
I am not in position to prove it since I am not interested in this issue, but, despite the fact that is impossible to fake large number of videos to match them all perfectly to capture one event and together with photos and witnesses to match everything perfectly, I am using logic, why to fake it? How would be possible to demolish WTC without crashing some big object to it? How can you fake all peoples, to tell them the WTC just collapsed without any crash, this will make many problems since they have big problems even with the two planes crashing to WTC. And again, all testimonies, all peoples, independently taken photos and etc. match perfectly, no helicopter, no ballon and etc. I also watched whole event in real time in 2001 with my eyes, how to fake live broadcasting on the whole world? And again, how they would trick peoples/eyewtiness in New York to believe in terrorist attack without any plane crashing to WTC? Why to fake all that footage of WTC when they didn´t use this same technique for pentagon and released only a few bad photos which can´t prove anything? Why didn´t they faked tons of footage from Pentagon to trick us to believe it like in the WTC? Use logic. Why to fake videos when is easier to fake caption?

Did I said that all these videos are genuine?

prove to me that the photos are real, from that date and of that event?
I am not in position to prove it since I am not interested in this issue, but i am using logic and see above I already answered. Why to fake photos when is easier to fake caption?

Did I said that all these photos are genuine?

prove to me that the bones you saw were from dinosaurs?
I am not in postiion...but again, weh have independent forensic reports, we have bones so is possible repeat all test
again and again, regarding the visual look of dinosaurs, we have computer models based on data which allow to reproduce alleged look of dinosaurs, we have more examples of their bones and they match. Again, I am using logic, why and how to fake this bones and why to fake it? For what reason? Can you tell me how is possible to fake dinosaur bones? How did they manufacture such a bones to trick scientists? Why to fake any bones at all when is easier to take some photos and videos and fake caption and then tell to peoples "we lost that bones, sorry, no forensic tests can be done"

Did I said that the bones are genuine?

prove to me that the videos and other evidence are real, and scientifically valid?
I don´t know what videos you are talking about, you didn´t specify it and is silly to speak generally about all videos.

Did I said that all videos are genuine and scientifically valid?

prove to me that the alleged dinosaur bones you saw were real bones and from that era?
I am not in postiion...and see above, I already answered.

Did I said that I saw some bones which are genuine?

prove to me that the egyptians built the pyramids?
I am not in postiion...again, forensic reports, and use logic, this is the simpliest and the most logical explanation, but of course they could by built up by uummmm..vikings or aliens? Occam´s razor and logic which support theory about egyptionas and human origin of the Pyramids. But I have some doubts from what I know, so bad example, I am not 100% believer in this, but I respect it as the most propably explanation. Try to choose better example next time.

Did I said that pyramids are of human origin and built up by egyptians?

Nice strawmans Rich, i did not claim that all of this is genuine so you must adress your questions to who claims, that all of this staff is proven fact. I am not interested in these, I don´t care, my thread has totally different subject in which i am asking you? and the others who claim that this is proven fact. Start your own thread and demand your answers there.

you see where im going with this?........
Oh yes Rich, I see very well where you are going to go with this, to run out from the subject of this topic to ask me questions about subjects in which I am not interested so I don´t have enough information and must use only basic knowledge and logic. Then you will come to shout "Hey, Bob can´t 100% prove this things, this mean that his three questions did happen even when they can´t be proven too" and because Bob cannot prove pyramids from egyptians (Rich don´t care that I don´t know almost nothing about it) so it means that gassing took place because Rich cannot prove it too. In the case, that you would be honest enough, you would let me enough time so I would educate my self in these topics and then I will come back to make proper answers. Despite this fact, I don´t fear to gave at least some answer since I am not used to dodge, but you? You only call me silly and attack me ad hominem, instead of saying "I don´t know, I can´t prove it, or I am not in position to prove it I don´t have needed knowledge" I don´t care if someone believe in pyramid, I will not call him silly and will discuss this subject without problem.

And you propably did miss little issue, people speak about 100% absolute truth and proven fact which is tbe best documented event in human history. So where is problem to answer me three simple questions?

Yes, we can cut it, I adressed all of your questions, you didn´t answer even one and posted link with photos in which you don´t know what they show and admited it. You are correct, we wasted time, I have no reason to adress your comments since you are totally off topic, you dodge and even attack me ad hominem and with strawman questions which I never made. I will not more adress your offtopic comments since my subject is totally different, hope you will respect at least this. If you want my response, stay on topic.

Nessie wrote:This is where I wonder if there is any point of even trying to answer your original questions as your idea of proof varies depending on the subject. Regarding dinosaurs and "we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves" and that is accepted. Regarding the Holocaust and we have bones, skeletons, forensic reports, the original plans of the camps and additional proofs such as photos and film and then we also have eyewitness evidence on top of that, and that is not accepted. :?
Varies? What you are talking about? I am consistent, just show me something.

We have photos and videos which match with testimonies, with forensic reports with overal theory?

We have skeletons or mass graves, or human remains which match with photos, videos, with testimonies or with forensic reports?

We have some forensic reports supported by photos and videos and with testimonies and from independent subjects and not only from one side? In my country, there is asuch great independent freedom of research that several peoples were arrested or sentenced because they did not agree with official theory. But that´s not all, one of them were sentenced because he published article (he wasn´t author, he even didn´t tanslation) in Canda, on USA based server, but they charged him anyway in my Europe based country since he still has citizienship. Just insane, he comitted alleged crime in different state, where this isn´t crime from what i know, but they sentenced him anyway here.

We have some computer scientific data?

Original plans? GREAT - just tell me what you see in original plans, I am curious!

Photos and films? GREAT - just show me some photo or film which support other evidence!

Eyewitness? GREAT - just show some eyewtiness, ohhh, you showed one eyewtiness, Kurt Gerstein, great, he is the one who is that eyewtiness? You dodged my question about him. Try to tell Sergey Romanov how great this eyewitness is, try to tell him that Kurt Gerstein spoke about DIESEL engine, then sit and wait what will Mr. Romanov tell you. Let me guess "Gerstein is wrong despite he was engineer, he actually did not see or hear and etc. diesel engine and was confused or he did not actually see it with his own eyes, that engine was for sure gasoline, he is not reliable reagrading the type of engine/murder weapon" Am I correct?

Just show me something from alleged photos, videos, testimonies, forensic reports, independent research and reports, computer models, show me some gassed body, and etc. just show me something, common, 6 or 11 or 12
millions of peoples allegedly exterminated and you can´t provide me with just some proof about them? The murderers aren´t almost able to get rid of one single body, so where is problem with six to twelve millions? The Soviets weren´t able to get rid of around 20,000 bodies, so where are that millions of exterminated bodies? Let me guess "the mighty nazis get rid of the traces of their crimes including crucial documents and etc., so the non-existence of proofs of crime prove crime itself"

Nessie, do we have at least working logic in holocaust theory? Tell me please.

P.S. I know that you don´t agree with that figures, but i used them anyway, because the official theory speak about them, so no offense, I know that you don´t agree with it.

Sergey Romanov wrote:Mighty weird, aint't it? For example, much of the several first chapters is devoted to the evolution of the Nazi extermination policies, with many specific direct quotations by the Nazis that show that the Nazis did have extermination policies towards Jews.
Great, just quote it here, quote some citation from nazis and then tell me how this quote proved physical extermination, is supported by material evidence? With testimonies? Fo sure, i have read your article, just finally quote some alleged proof from your article since I don´t find nothing which I could consider as an answer to my questions.

Mr. Romanov, can you please answer at least one of my question?

14)Why do you focus on Aktion Reinhardt camps since there is Dachau, Majdanek, Hartheim, Stuthoff, Mauthausen and mainly Auschwitz which are "almost" intact and provide us with the tons of information and material evidence, and etc. and all of these camps have alleged gas chamber/s and some of these camps have them completely intact?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:15 pm

Don't worry, Bob, my helpful little Public Service Announcement will be posted regularly, since it shows your hypocrisy of demanding evidence but stonewalling when it is given to you in spades. It's up to you to reply to the book in detail, and saying "I didn't find the answer" is not a proper reply. I would have to quote full chapters in response to you, and obviously I won't be doing that. Giving the link is enough. You must address the evidence in totality, not cherrypick it.

As for your question, it's a strawman, of course. I don't focus on AR camps. I focus on extermination camps. That includes Auschwitz, AR camps, Chelmno, Maly Trostinets. (Majdanek's status as an extermination camp is, let's say, vague, given the death toll revision and the fact that most people there didn't die in the gas chambers, but mostly of starvation and epidemics, according to Tomasz Kranz's research, in which sense it is more close to other concentration camps like Buchenwald and Mauthausen, which had high death tolls but are not considered to be straight extermination camps by historians).

Dachau, Stutthof and Mauthausen weren't extermination camps, Hartheim wasn't a camp. I can discuss these places when necessary, but it's really of tertiary importance (e.g. if anyone was ever gassed in Dachau, the number would be small anyway not to make a significant numerical dent). These seem like red herrings from you. The main camps for the Holocaust are the camps I named above.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:11 pm

Sergey Romanov wrote:IAs for your question, it's a strawman, of course. I don't focus on AR camps. I focus on extermination camps. That includes Auschwitz, AR camps, Chelmno, Maly Trostinets.
No strawman sir, your article is clearly about Aktion Reinahrd/t or do you want to deny it? Can you quote here the title of your article? Please. So we can judge if I am right or if you comitted lie when you accused me of strawman.

Can you quote here title of some of your publication about Auschwitz? Please.

Sergey Romanov wrote:It's up to you to reply to the book in detail, and saying "I didn't find the answer" is not a proper reply. I would have to quote full chapters in response to you, and obviously I won't be doing that. Giving the link is enough. You must address the evidence in totality, not cherrypick it.
There isn´t nothing to reply since i didn´t find proof and that´s why i am here. If you want to tell me, that your proof is whole chapter, so, i am sorry, that´s not my problem. I have nothing to adress in your article, no answer, no chapter served as a proof, sorry and that is the last I am writing this becuase I have already wrote several times, that I didn´t find any proof in your article, if you cannot quote direct proof becuase your proof constist of whole chapter, that is not my problem. You still force me to read it again and again, but i din not find anything like proof, so you can stop now or start to quote concrete proofs.

16)Isn´t correct that your article is response to other peoples and not to me? Maybe that is problem why I didn´t find any answer.
Sergey Romanov wrote:(Majdanek's status as an extermination camp is, let's say, vague, given the death toll revision and the fact that most people there didn't die in the gas chambers, but mostly of starvation and epidemics, according to Tomasz Kranz's research, in which sense it is more close to other concentration camps like Buchenwald and Mauthausen, which had high death tolls but are not considered to be straight extermination camps by historians).
"The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission has ascertained that during the 4 years' existence of the extermination camp at Maidanek the Hitlerite hangmen, following the direct order of their criminal government, exterminated by mass shooting and mass killing in gas chambers approximately 1.5 million persons: Soviet prisoners of war, prisoners of war of the former Polish Army, and nationals of various countries- Poles, Frenchmen, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Serbs, Greeks, Croats, and a great number of Jews."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; p. 589.

"In only two camps of death the criminals exterminated 5 1/2 million people (Auschwitz plus Majdanek). In proof of this I quote the conclusions of the Extraordinary State Commission for Auschwitz".

Ibid., p. 588.
Interesting, what happened that, 1,5 mil. victims in Nuremberg (Document USSR-29), where was "proved" this number, shrinked to 78,000 from Tomasz Kranz (Zeszyty Majdanka no. XXIII (2005), pp. 7-53.,Majdanek Journal)?
"It has been proven that 1,700,000 people were murdered in Majdanek, and that Majdanek was an execution camp in the full sense of this term."

Archiwum Państwowego Muzeum na Majdanku, sygn. XX-1, p. 100.
Your are telling me that the status of Majdanek is vague? Interesting, why? It has been proven, or not? And 1,7 mil.?

15)Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there. Answer please.

Tell me more about status of Majdanek.

Your helpful public annoucement did not help you at all in answering my simple questions.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Bob wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:IAs for your question, it's a strawman, of course. I don't focus on AR camps. I focus on extermination camps. That includes Auschwitz, AR camps, Chelmno, Maly Trostinets.
No strawman sir, your article is clearly about Aktion Reinahrd/t or do you want to deny it?
Duh. Of course the book is about Aktion Reinhard. However, what you wrote was: "Why do you focus on Aktion Reinhardt camps...". The question was not about the book. The question was general - what I focus on, not what the focus of the book is. The book is not the only output our blog has. We write on a variety of topics. Hence my response is that I don't focus on AR camps. I focus on all extermination camps.

In this particular thread I bring up the AR camps critique because it answers the two of your questions.

Can you quote here title of some of your publication about Auschwitz? Please.
You know the link to our blog. Go there and read.
Sergey Romanov wrote:It's up to you to reply to the book in detail, and saying "I didn't find the answer" is not a proper reply. I would have to quote full chapters in response to you, and obviously I won't be doing that. Giving the link is enough. You must address the evidence in totality, not cherrypick it.
There isn´t nothing to reply since i didn´t find proof and that´s why i am here.
It's obvious that you will continue stonewalling, and that is of no concern to me. The evidence has been presented in the book. Until you respond to it, the Public Service Announcement will be posted. Saying that the evidence is not in the book is not a proper response. Prove that the evidence is not in the book by responding to the book.
Sergey Romanov wrote:(Majdanek's status as an extermination camp is, let's say, vague, given the death toll revision and the fact that most people there didn't die in the gas chambers, but mostly of starvation and epidemics, according to Tomasz Kranz's research, in which sense it is more close to other concentration camps like Buchenwald and Mauthausen, which had high death tolls but are not considered to be straight extermination camps by historians).
"The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission has ascertained that during the 4 years' existence of the extermination camp at Maidanek the Hitlerite hangmen, following the direct order of their criminal government, exterminated by mass shooting and mass killing in gas chambers approximately 1.5 million persons: Soviet prisoners of war, prisoners of war of the former Polish Army, and nationals of various countries- Poles, Frenchmen, Italians, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Serbs, Greeks, Croats, and a great number of Jews."

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; p. 589.

"In only two camps of death the criminals exterminated 5 1/2 million people (Auschwitz plus Majdanek). In proof of this I quote the conclusions of the Extraordinary State Commission for Auschwitz".

Ibid., p. 588.
Interesting, what happened that, 1,5 mil. victims in Nuremberg (Document USSR-29), where was "proved" this number, shrinked to 78,000 from Tomasz Kranz (Zeszyty Majdanka no. XXIII (2005), pp. 7-53.,Majdanek Journal)?
So? And Conquest's 3,000,000 victims of Kolyma camps shrinked to around 200,000. Does that mean that claims about Stalin's crimes are now under suspicion?
15)Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there. Answer please.
Why should I answer? I gave you the link to the evidence about Nazi extermination policies and about the three camps of Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor. Deal with this evidence, then we talk Majdanek.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:49 pm

Sergey Romanov wrote:
but I cannot find specific answers, only general ones.
Mighty weird, aint't it? For example, much of the several first chapters is devoted to the evolution of the Nazi extermination policies, with many specific direct quotations by the Nazis that show that the Nazis did have extermination policies towards Jews. Yet you claim here that you "cannot find specific answers". I'm afraid that either you haven't actually read the book, or you're being disingenuous for some unknown reason. Same for "Bob".
I am referring to the opening three questions in this thread. Then there have been other specific questions such as

"Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there."

Whilst I agree Bob is stonewalling and ignoring very good evidence, I am also growing very suspicious of your inability to provide direct answers to direct questions.

You should be able to swat away Bob's questions with ease with one liners that after all of your studying you should have pretty much at the tip of your fingers; the gas chambers at Majdanek were used to kill X number of Jews based on research by Y and evidence corroborated by Z and there were ! number of gas chambers.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:00 pm

Bob wrote:
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:
......
Nessie wrote:This is where I wonder if there is any point of even trying to answer your original questions as your idea of proof varies depending on the subject. Regarding dinosaurs and "we have bones, skeletons and forensic reports, computer models based on scientific data and of course additional proofs like drawings in caves" and that is accepted. Regarding the Holocaust and we have bones, skeletons, forensic reports, the original plans of the camps and additional proofs such as photos and film and then we also have eyewitness evidence on top of that, and that is not accepted. :?
Varies? What you are talking about? I am consistent, just show me something.

We have photos and videos which match with testimonies, with forensic reports with overal theory?

We have skeletons or mass graves, or human remains which match with photos, videos, with testimonies or with forensic reports?

.......
The liberation of Belsen provides corrobarated evidence by dead bodies, photos, film, eyewitness descriptions from journalists, the army and inmates as well as the from the later trials.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen-Bel ... ation_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


PS - I agree it is wrong to make denial a crime, it goes against freedom of speach which is more important.

My example of one eyewitness is only one and from what I have read whilst some of his evidence is wrong, other parts are corroborated and so he cannot be completely dismissed.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Sergey Romanov » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:00 pm

My dear Nessie, your concern is noted. Rest assured that I'm not very bothered by the fact that you're growing "very suspicious". Your replies on this thread have not been especially illuminating or knowledgeable, so your opinion of my replies is not of much importance in my estimation.

That you do not seem to understand that I won't be playing by Bob's rules doesn't help you either. I'm not gonna jump from topic to topic on Bob's whim, following his red herrings. He won't be setting the parameters of the discussion. Your own discussion with Bob should have shown you that discussing particulars with him leads nowhere and only leads the Hydra to grow more heads.