Can you show me some proof/s?

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Bob
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:25 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Nothing out of context, you changed your arguemntation, you edited out alleged "confirmed executions" alleged "number of exectued" peoples from your newest claim about Hofle telegram.
Bob wrote:He repeatedly post alleged proof "Hoefle telegram" but when i place only one question about it, he disappeared
Tsk tsk tsk....You are quite a denier aren't you? You agree I have mentioned the Hofle telegram is thousands of posts. I gave you the context of those posts, 713,555 people are sent to Treblinka, none leave and the Polish investigation finds human ash at Treblinka.....but you avoid saying what you theory is to this evidence. Are you claiming Treblinka was a transit camp? Are you claiming Lukaszkiewicz didn't find human ash? Are you saying the Hofle Telegram is forged. Do you have any alternative theory or are you avoiding evidence and refusing to read books?


I already said to you that I do not deny Holocaust, I only don´t believe in specific aspects see:
Bob
Jan 11, 2012 9:36 am
No Matthew, I only don´t believe in certain aspects of holocaust.
You ignored my answer and still make strawman, no problem, this is your issue. You still dodge, fact is that i proved tha you have used Hofle telegram as a proof of executions and confirmation, you used it several times and I quoted you, now you try to dodge, Hofle telegram dont speak anything about if someone did not left the camp. But Korherr report did and used Hofle data, see:
The following numbers were sifted through the camps in the Generalgouvernement ...... 1 274 166 Jews
area:...(Korherr report http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/korherr_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Hofle telegram:

...radio telegram from there Recorded arrivals until 31 December 42(...)totaling 1274166(...)
As you see, they were processed through and Hofle telegram was confirmed, no executions, but deported through. Do you have some proof that they were killed? Of course, some "eyewtinesses" am I right? Or do you want to tell me that "sifted through" is code word? Document evidence is against you, your own document refute your extermination view, sweet.

Last try: Do Hofle telegram confirm only minimal number of deportees or confirm executions and prove executions as you stated before?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Crap. Who is going to expose you? You are called "Bob" which is not your real name. Which exact law are you referring to and show me the specific legislation that you would be prosecuted under if you stated your hypothesis in detail in a debate on a forum?


Well, so I dont understand what is your problem when you know that this is against law. Respect my attitude to not violate law of my country, this is my choice I am not interested to be imprisoned, respect it. I will not show you that law since this would expose my country name, i will not expose anything which can lead to expose my identity, simple, respect it.
Matthew Ellard wrote: I don't care what you think. You are a holocaust denier who can't say what his problem with existing conventional evidence is. Next week you will deny nuclear weapons because no one on a skeptic forum will explain to you how they work. [/color]
Again, strawman, I am not denier. And problems are demonstrated in my qestions, no problem = no questions. Again, you are wrong I am not interested in nuclear weapons.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Crap. The Station master, Zabecki, alrerady confirmed that no trains with people left Treblinka II. Do some basic research before posting again as you seem to have huge gaps in your limited reading. [/color]
Interesting point, he could observe Treblinka II from his station at Treblinka village that he know that nobody left that camp? Can you show me evidence which support Zabecki claim that no peoples left Treblinka II so they will for sure murdered? He could observe Treblinka II? Why didn´t they damage rails to stop exteminations? Why?

Edit - I forgot this one, he could allegedly observe extermination process as a "first class" witness in Treblinka village station and the stupid nazis didnt kill him and let him go to spread it to the world? Fantastic.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He looks like another "fantastic" witness similar to ones which see blue haze in gas chamber or flames shooting to heaven from chimney or geyser of blood from alleged mass graves.
"this odour, this dark foggy cloud that hung over us, that covered the sky in that hot and beautiful summer, even on the most brilliant days – not a rain-cloud promising relief from the heat, but an almost sulphuric darkness bringing with it this pestilential smell."

"He ordered the bigger boy to sit down on the ground and take the smaller one on his knee, then he shot them both with one bullet. " (Cool, this story is popular, almost the same as the story of Venezia´s family in Auschwitz)

"In no time an SS man ran up, unwrapped the pillow, seized the child by its feet and smashed its head against a wheel of the wagon"

""One of the SS men who had arrived at the station that day – he was Kurt Franz, deputy commandant of the camp – came out with his dog along the road. The dog, scenting something, pulled the SS man after it into the thicket. A Jewess was lying there with a baby; probably she was already dead. The baby, a few months old, was crying and nestling against its mother’s bosom. The dog let off the lead, tracked them down, but at a certain distance it crouched on the ground. It looked as if it was getting ready to jump, to bite them and tear them to pieces. However, after a time it began to cringe and whimper dolefully, and approached the people lying on the ground; crouching it licked the baby on its hands, face and head.
The SS man came up to the scene with his gun in his hand. He sensed the dog’s weakness. The dog began to wag its tail, turning its head towards the boots of the SS man. The German swore violently and flogged the dog with his stick. The dog looked up and fled. Several times the German kicked the dead woman, and then began to kick the baby and trample on its head. Later he walked through the bushes, whistling for his dog. The dog did not seem to hear, although it was not far away; it ran through the bushes whimpering softly; it appeared to be looking for the people. After a time the SS man came out on to the road, and the dog ran up to its master. The German then began to beat it mercilessly with a whip. The dog howled, barked, even jumped up to the German’s chest as if it were rabid, but the blows with the whip got the better of it. On the masters command it lay down.
The German went a few paces away, and ordered the dog to stand. The dog obeyed the order perfectly. It carefully licked the boots, undoubtedly spattered with the baby’s blood, under its muzzle. Satisfied the SS man began to shoot and set the dog on other Jews who were still escaping from the wagons standing in the station."

""the others guess. There were no German papers on which to base these estimates except those I rescued and hid – and they are inconclusive. But I stood there in that station day after day and counted the figures chalked on each carriage. I have added them up over and over and over. The number of people killed in Treblinka was 1,200.000, and there is no doubt about it whatsoever." (Yeah, no doubt, he counted them, so why 870, 000 today?)
Yep Matthew, I believe him every word.

Here is Marian Olszuk, he allegedly could observe alleged extermination camp.
An exceptional witness: Marian Olszuk
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF031012.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is locomotive driver (so important witness, right?) Henryk Gawkowski from Shoah movie and his admission that he didn´t know that Jews were killed, he was told after the war about it thus he didn´t see big elephant as othe alleged witnesses (A. Butz)
"I asked him: "But then, were you aware of leading all those Jews to their death, day after day, and over a period of nearly fifteen months?" The reply burst forth: "No, of course not!" I asked him at what moment he had become aware. Answer: "After the war." In other words, to take up the American revisionist Arthur Robert Butz's parable, H. Gawkowski was of the cohort of those who, at the time, had not seen "the elephant". He had neither seen it nor heard it trumpet but, a good while later, had become convinced that, in this particular corner of Poland, a monstrous pachyderm had, for nearly fifteen months, secretly haunted the environs, spreading terror as it went"

Robert Faurisson
http://www.vho.org/aaargh/engl/FaurisArch/RF031012.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:Are you claiming Treblinka was a transit camp? Are you claiming Lukaszkiewicz didn't find human ash? Are you saying the Hofle Telegram is forged. Do you have any alternative theory or are you avoiding evidence and refusing to read books?
You strawman policy is extreme. No, i have no reason to deny Hofle telegram, this telegram means problem for you, no execustions no confirmation, only confirmation that you spread false information about confirmation of executions or about number of executed. Treblinka II seems to be normal transit camp since there is no evidence for exterrination camp or working camp, but there is documented evidence about transit camp as I have shown, also I use logic and occam´s razor, there is no problem with transit theory, this theory is "contradicted" only by "eyewtinesses" and with logic fallacy claim "when they were not murdered in TII where they are?" So everything what you have to support your claim are witnesses? Right?

Your next claims were adressed immediately when you placed them before you have disappeared:
Bob wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:03 am
Show me how Franz Stangl answered to my questions.

What did Łukaszkiewicz find? Tell me instead of assuming what I didn´t say.
I know very well what they have said, please, show me how they confirmed exterminations.

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Bob wrote: I already said to you that I do not deny Holocaust, I only don´t believe in specific aspects
Nope, you are just another holocaust denier who is refuses to write down what the specific evidence you don't like from conventional history.
Bob wrote:You still dodge, ........Hofle telegram dont speak anything about if someone did not left the camp.
That's right. That's why you isolated my quote out of context and why you are avoiding mentioning the other evidence in my posts. If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II and if the station master saw no victims leave Treblinka II then the 713,555 people in Hofle Telegram died at Treblinka II. But you deny this as reasonable evidence....why?.....because you are a holocaust denier!
Bob wrote: Do you have some proof that they were killed?
Hmmmm let's think....we have 20,000square metres of human ash... we have the eyewitnesses walking past the pits full of bodies......we have the workers digging the mass graves.....we have the confessions by the commanding officers....we have the Nazi policy for executing Polish jews....we have the station master saying no trains of victims left.....

Don't tell me....you think aliens kidnapped the 713,555 victims mentioned in the hofle telegram? No? Do you have any theory at all? No?

Bob wrote: Well, so I dont understand what is your problem when you know that this is against law.
Our discussion is not against the law and you don't seem to know what legislation you are referring to. State the exact clause in this legislation that says discussion on a forum is illegal.
Bob wrote: I will not show you that law since this would expose my country name,
So what? You don't seem to know what the law is. Can you list me anyone who has been prosecuted under this imaginary law for discussing the holocaust on a forum?
Bob wrote: Can you show me evidence which support Zabecki claim that no peoples left Treblinka II so they will for sure murdered?
The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka. It is pretty obvious that you haven't read anything about Treblinka at all.
Bob wrote: Why didn´t they damage rails to stop exteminations? Why?
Those pesky german guards shooting jews on the railway kline as quoted by Zabecki probably would have said no......but you haven't read Zabecki have you?
Bob wrote: I forgot this one, he could allegedly observe extermination process as a "first class" witness in Treblinka village station and the stupid nazis didnt kill him and let him go to spread it to the world?
and thus you deny his evidence.....see....a real 100% holocaust denier!
Bob wrote: Yep Matthew, I believe him every word.
As I said. Who cares what you think. You are a holocaust denier. It's not as though you are going to write a serious book or challenge conventional history at a peer reviewed university or do anything other than troll forums.
Bob wrote: Treblinka II seems to be normal transit camp since there is no evidence for exterrination camp or working camp,
So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash or think that is normal at a transit camp?

Bob
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I already said to you that I do not deny Holocaust, I only don´t believe in specific aspects
Nope, you are just another holocaust denier who is refuses to write down what the specific evidence you don't like from conventional history.


My question adressed every alleged evidence and clearly pointed out what i don´t like in subject of the question.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:You still dodge, ........Hofle telegram dont speak anything about if someone did not left the camp.
That's right. That's why you isolated my quote out of context and why you are avoiding mentioning the other evidence in my posts.


Great, so no victims, no sinister meaning of Hofle Telegram, no executions, only document about number of deported, thanks, finally. No avoiding, I adressed every claim, about Stangl about Zabecki, about Lukaszkiewicz and etc. see my previous post.
Matthew Ellard wrote: If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II and if the station master saw no victims leave Treblinka II then the 713,555 people in Hofle Telegram died at Treblinka II. But you deny this as reasonable evidence....why?.....because you are a holocaust denier!

Matthew Ellard wrote:The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka. It is pretty obvious that you haven't read anything about Treblinka at all.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Can you show me evidence which support Zabecki claim that no peoples left Treblinka II so they will for sure murdered?
The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka. It is pretty obvious that you haven't read anything about Treblinka at all.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Treblinka II seems to be normal transit camp since there is no evidence for exterrination camp or working camp,
So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash or think that is normal at a transit camp?
No dodging.

- Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?
- Did Lukaszkiewicz take some photo (or did he filmed it) of alleged amount of human ashes? Do you have some?
- Did he documented it or do you have only written text report without physical evidence to support it?
- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Do you have some proof that they were killed?
Hmmmm let's think....we have 20,000square metres of human ash... we have the eyewitnesses walking past the pits full of bodies......we have the workers digging the mass graves.....we have the confessions by the commanding officers....we have the Nazi policy for executing Polish jews....we have the station master saying no trains of victims left.....

Don't tell me....you think aliens kidnapped the 713,555 victims mentioned in the hofle telegram? No? Do you have any theory at all? No?
Regarding the claims about ash, Zabecki, see above, adress it above.

So everything what you have are witnesses.

-Can you name some of your alleged witnesses?
-Who digged graves?
-Can you show me at least one mass grave from that all in which the alleged 870,00 victims were buried?
(Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, p. 1486)

My theory was already mentioned, I believe in transit camp because of proofs and logic, nazi documents cleary stated this as I proved, you did not prove extermination so I have no reason to believe it, simple. You have only contradicting "witnesses" and false logic "hey dad, my cat is missing, was she gassed by the nazis?"
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Well, so I dont understand what is your problem when you know that this is against law.
Our discussion is not against the law and you don't seem to know what legislation you are referring to. State the exact clause in this legislation that says discussion on a forum is illegal.
Bob wrote: I will not show you that law since this would expose my country name,
So what? You don't seem to know what the law is. Can you list me anyone who has been prosecuted under this imaginary law for discussing the holocaust on a forum?
Yes, discussion from my side isn´t against law yet, obviously, because I am not here to violate law I am here to see if you can prove it or not, you obviously can´t so far. As I said, I cannot write anything which can deny holocaust or doubt holocaust, my country prohibite this. I cannot quote this law since with quoting of this law I would show in which coutry I am, do you understand finally? Law does not mention forum (obviously) but prohibite public claims about it, it does not matter where if in the bus, street, forum and etc. I already stated this for several times, i will not adress it in future, I hate repeating myself.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Why didn´t they damage rails to stop exteminations? Why?
Those pesky german guards shooting jews on the railway kline as quoted by Zabecki probably would have said no......but you haven't read Zabecki have you?
I do not understand, the Germans guarded whole railway 24 hours or what did you try to say? Answer my question again.

-Why didn´t they damage rails to stop exteminations? Why?

Again Zabecki?

-Can you tell me why the stupid nazis entrusted this important top secret task to some Zabecki who was even member of Polish underground? Why did not they entrust this task to some nazi officer who is familiar with this top secret operation and obviously more trustworthy?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I forgot this one, he could allegedly observe extermination process as a "first class" witness in Treblinka village station and the stupid nazis didnt kill him and let him go to spread it to the world?
and thus you deny his evidence.....see....a real 100% holocaust denier!


Hm, that´s what i call an answer. Try it again please, adress my question, no dodging

-He could allegedly observe extermination process as a "first class" witness in Treblinka village station and the stupid nazis didnt kill him and let him go to spread it to the world? Why? From what reason?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Yep Matthew, I believe him every word.
As I said. Who cares what you think. You are a holocaust denier. It's not as though you are going to write a serious book or challenge conventional history at a peer reviewed university or do anything other than troll forums.


Who cares, propably you as i see. Again, fantastic answer, this propably mean that you believe him what he said, am I right? You believe in Barry the dog, you believe in dark cloud covering sky, sulphuric darkness, shooting kids with one bullet, smashing kid´s head against the wagon wheel and finally, in 1,200,000 number of victims?

-Am I correct? You believe him? Yes or No?

-Why Henryk Gawkowski (locomotive driver) didn´t see any dark clouds covering sky even in brilliant days, how he could miss such a cremation activity?
-Why did he found that they were exterminated only after the war when Zabecki allegedly did see all of this in his Treblinka village station?

David
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by David » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:59 am

Bob wrote:David, that story is even worse, there were allegedly seven gas chambers which were allegedly found by the Polish-Soviet Commission, they summarized them in their report from August 1944 (GARF, 7021-107-9, pp. 229-243.)

Do you want to see some legendary nazi gas chamber? Did you ever see a homicidal gas chamber with unprotected glass window and with the door which opens inward? Here is one from Majdanek.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... window.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/indexyy.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not sure but I think they abandoned this gas chamber too, that window was propably too ridiculous.

The "missing victims" were explained by Mr. Terry:
nickterry wrote:"It's true that in 1944, the original estimate for the death toll at Majdanek was 1.5 million, based on finding warehouses full of shoes stolen from the victims of the Reinhard camps.That figure is accurate for all of the Reinhard camps plus Majdanek. Plundered property was transferred from Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Lublin and warehoused there."
But when confronted with this:
"“It had been assumed that this [quantity of shoes] came from murdered detainees. We know from documents that have later come to light that there was, at Majdanek, a store which received shoes from other camps.”

Czeslaw Rajca, Majdanek Museum, (Rajca, Problem liczby ofiar w obozie na Majdanku, Zeszyty Majdanka, p. 127)
He ignore it and use excuses why not to answer this

30)What source you used for your claim, that shoes are from allegedly murdered victims of Reinhard camps?

He know why not to answer, because his claim about AR camp´s stolen property isn´t based on evidence, and is contradicted by official narrative about "store which received shoes from other camps" do someone see something about AR camps? Me not, I see only camps, but Mr. Terry try to sell us that these shoes are for sure from allegedly murdered victims, but because he has no proofs, only assumptions, he ingore my question. His claim about shoes of alleged victims and about "convergence of numbers" is refuted easily since the Soviets have found "only" 800,000 pairs of shoes, so no Terry´s "1,500,000" accurate figure, he plainly lied to us, see here for example:
The movie mentions the 800,000 pairs of shoes which were found in the camp when it was liberated, but doesn't point out that Majdanek was a center for processing clothing from the Operation Reinhard camps at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. There was also a shoe repair shop at Majdanek where the prisoners worked on the boots of the German soldiers as well as the shoes taken from the Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... anek1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He lied or he must reduce his number by half, this will be problem for him I think. The link above make this claim about AR camps too without sources but they at least don´t mention that is from victims.

This is how it works when some believer try to sell this story to "non-educated" peoples, no murdered victims´s property, but store, repair shop from variety of camps, from german soldiers and etc. The maximum for this issue is to say "some shoes could be from deceased prisoners which died in camps because of various reasons" Please note that Mr. Terry "forget" to use allegedly "proven" number of 1,700,000 which is first number of victims for Majdanek:

(Trial of Hermann Vogel, December 2, 1944, (Archive of the State Museum in Majdanek), sygn. XX-1, p. 100.

I clearly wrote this already in this thread (Jan 12, 2012 4:11 pm, on page 2)

Well, and some peoples still wonder why that evil Bob uses such annoying questions.
nickterry wrote:Bob is welcome to come onto JREF and ask people the same questions and see what answers he gets. In a different situation, questions will receive different responses.
Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?
The Amazing Shoe Excuse!
However the claim that the Soviets would have found
a warehouse with 800,000 pairs of shoes in it also
sounds strange. Operation Reinhard allegedly started
in 1941 and ended in 1943. Why would the Germans
store shoes for 1 1/2 years?
Don't Believers like Mr. Terry also claim that
the Germans fastidiously destroyed all evidence
of the Operation Reinhard camps?


But what is also ignored by Believers like Mr. Terry is that the
claim of 1,700,000 murders at Majdanek was already known to
be false at Nuremberg. The number kept dropping, 1,500,000 in
the Indictment and 1,400,000 in the Judgment.
It seems as if the figure was extremely arbitrary and it seems as
if the Tribunal didn't care if the evidende was accurate.

In fact, as soon as the Nuremberg Trial was over
the number dropped 1,200,000 and has kept dropping ever since.

Bob
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:41 am

Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:37 am

David wrote:
Bob wrote:David, that story is even worse, there were allegedly seven gas chambers which were allegedly found by the Polish-Soviet Commission, they summarized them in their report from August 1944 (GARF, 7021-107-9, pp. 229-243.)

Do you want to see some legendary nazi gas chamber? Did you ever see a homicidal gas chamber with unprotected glass window and with the door which opens inward? Here is one from Majdanek.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... window.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/indexyy.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not sure but I think they abandoned this gas chamber too, that window was propably too ridiculous.

The "missing victims" were explained by Mr. Terry:
nickterry wrote:"It's true that in 1944, the original estimate for the death toll at Majdanek was 1.5 million, based on finding warehouses full of shoes stolen from the victims of the Reinhard camps.That figure is accurate for all of the Reinhard camps plus Majdanek. Plundered property was transferred from Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Lublin and warehoused there."
But when confronted with this:
"“It had been assumed that this [quantity of shoes] came from murdered detainees. We know from documents that have later come to light that there was, at Majdanek, a store which received shoes from other camps.”

Czeslaw Rajca, Majdanek Museum, (Rajca, Problem liczby ofiar w obozie na Majdanku, Zeszyty Majdanka, p. 127)
He ignore it and use excuses why not to answer this

30)What source you used for your claim, that shoes are from allegedly murdered victims of Reinhard camps?

He know why not to answer, because his claim about AR camp´s stolen property isn´t based on evidence, and is contradicted by official narrative about "store which received shoes from other camps" do someone see something about AR camps? Me not, I see only camps, but Mr. Terry try to sell us that these shoes are for sure from allegedly murdered victims, but because he has no proofs, only assumptions, he ingore my question. His claim about shoes of alleged victims and about "convergence of numbers" is refuted easily since the Soviets have found "only" 800,000 pairs of shoes, so no Terry´s "1,500,000" accurate figure, he plainly lied to us, see here for example:
The movie mentions the 800,000 pairs of shoes which were found in the camp when it was liberated, but doesn't point out that Majdanek was a center for processing clothing from the Operation Reinhard camps at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. There was also a shoe repair shop at Majdanek where the prisoners worked on the boots of the German soldiers as well as the shoes taken from the Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... anek1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He lied or he must reduce his number by half, this will be problem for him I think. The link above make this claim about AR camps too without sources but they at least don´t mention that is from victims.

This is how it works when some believer try to sell this story to "non-educated" peoples, no murdered victims´s property, but store, repair shop from variety of camps, from german soldiers and etc. The maximum for this issue is to say "some shoes could be from deceased prisoners which died in camps because of various reasons" Please note that Mr. Terry "forget" to use allegedly "proven" number of 1,700,000 which is first number of victims for Majdanek:

(Trial of Hermann Vogel, December 2, 1944, (Archive of the State Museum in Majdanek), sygn. XX-1, p. 100.

I clearly wrote this already in this thread (Jan 12, 2012 4:11 pm, on page 2)

Well, and some peoples still wonder why that evil Bob uses such annoying questions.
nickterry wrote:Bob is welcome to come onto JREF and ask people the same questions and see what answers he gets. In a different situation, questions will receive different responses.
Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?
The Amazing Shoe Excuse!
However the claim that the Soviets would have found
a warehouse with 800,000 pairs of shoes in it also
sounds strange. Operation Reinhard allegedly started
in 1941 and ended in 1943. Why would the Germans
store shoes for 1 1/2 years?
Don't Believers like Mr. Terry also claim that
the Germans fastidiously destroyed all evidence
of the Operation Reinhard camps?


But what is also ignored by Believers like Mr. Terry is that the
claim of 1,700,000 murders at Majdanek was already known to
be false at Nuremberg. The number kept dropping, 1,500,000 in
the Indictment and 1,400,000 in the Judgment.
It seems as if the figure was extremely arbitrary and it seems as
if the Tribunal didn't care if the evidende was accurate.

In fact, as soon as the Nuremberg Trial was over
the number dropped 1,200,000 and has kept dropping ever since.
Yes, 800,000 of shoes is clearly exaggeration, is also known that exaggeration was common, we can assume that there were much less shoes counted max in thousands or in ten thousands, who can knows now? They should counted them to investigate "crimes" properly, they did not do it, they propably did not care enough and since we now about exaggeration policy, this figure is unreliable and clearly much much lower. This even more demolish Mr. Terry´s lie about shoes which allegedly belonged to victims of AR camps and this also even more demolish his claim about "convergence of numbers", if he want to insist on this claim about shoes of victims of AR camps, he must lower number of victims of AR camps considerably, if he don´t want to insist on this claim, he must admit that he lied. I already proved that he lied, so this is the end I think.

Edit - not "ten thousands", but tens, I forgot "s"

Nick Terry seems to be "demolished", he even contradict himself and official narrative. Romanov, Terry, and the other authors of "proofs"...who is next?

Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

USSR-344 IMT in Nuremberg. GARF, 7445-2-126, pp. 19a-20 (p. 3f).
So no Matthew´s "2 hectares of ash", but mixture of sand and ashes. He can´t interpret his own "sources" correctly and spread false information, same as with Hofle telegram, this is not already only a mischance.

Yep, this is how it goes from orthodox side.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:44 am

Bob wrote:Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?
He wrote down the numbers written on chalk on the covered wagons. He handed the train records to Lukaszkiewicz.....you obviously haven't read anything on Zabecki Go away and do some basic reading.....
Bob wrote: Did Lukaszkiewicz take some photo (or did he filmed it) of alleged amount of human ashes? Do you have some?
- The photos are on the Internet and have been for years. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading.

http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl ... 34x434.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob wrote: Did he documented it or do you have only written text report without physical evidence to support it?
He sent the human ash for forensic analysis who confirmed it was human. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading
Bob wrote:- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?[/b]
You have never heard nor seen the Treblinka monument? You know.....where they covered the ash in memory to the approx 800,000 people executed there? You know....where Richard Krege, the holocaust denier faked his GPR analysis. Go away and do some basic reading.
Bob wrote:- Can you show me at least one mass grave from that all in which the alleged 870,00 victims were buried? [/b](Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, p. 1486)
You are obviously a junior holocaust denier. Here is a photo of Lukaszkiewicz standing in one of the mass graves at Treblinka they excavated. .
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob wrote: I believe in transit camp because of proofs and logic, nazi documents cleary stated this as I proved,
A transit camp with 20,000 square meters of human ash, no transport out of and no survivors found, with two gas chambers. You are not very bright are you?
Bob wrote:Yes, discussion from my side isn´t against law yet,
So why bring it up? Simply state your working hypothesis as to how approx 800,000 people left Treblinka II on foot, where the human ash comes from and why there were gas chambers and mass graves at Treblinka II.
Bob wrote: I cannot quote this law since with quoting of this law I would show in which coutry I am, do you understand finally?
I don't give a rat's arse what country you come from. Are you pretending to be German? The facts are the same no matter where you come from.

Bob wrote: I do not understand, the Germans guarded whole railway 24 hours or what did you try to say? Answer my question again.
What is the length of the single rail spur that lead to Treblinka. Are you saying the Polish resistance should have launched a major attack outside an extermination camp and because they didn't there was no camp? You're not very bright are you?

Bob wrote:Can you tell me why the stupid nazis entrusted this important top secret task to some Zabecki who was even member of Polish underground?
I don't think Zabecki rang the Germans up and said “Hi I'm in the Polish underground” Do you? You're not very bright are you?
Bob wrote:Why did not they entrust this task to some nazi officer who is familiar with this top secret operation and obviously more trustworthy?
Zabecki was the station master in Poland and spoke Polish. He had normal duties as well. The Germans were already using Lithuanians and Ukrainians in the camps. Do you think there were unlimited German officers who could run train lines?
Bob wrote:You believe in Barry the dog
OK.... you are indeed a loony. Here is a photo of Barry the dog.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... /58148.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:52 am

Bob wrote:The Amazing Shoe Excuse! However the claim that the Soviets would have found a warehouse with 800,000 pairs of shoes in it also sounds strange.
Are you and David having a contest as to who knows the least about Treblinka II? You both win!

Nuremberg Document NO-1257 (as compiled by the SS not the allies.)

Particularly illuminating is a report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized ( Treblinka). Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing sent to the Office for Germanisation, useless to the dead but otherwise essential to any who would have actually been transported to the east, i.e. none.
[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by David » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:08 am

Bob wrote:
Yes, 800,000 of shoes is clearly exaggeration, is also known that exaggeration was common, we can assume that there were much less shoes counted max in thousands or in ten thousands, who can knows now? They should counted them to investigate "crimes" properly, they did not do it, they propably did not care enough and since we now about exaggeration policy, this figure is unreliable and clearly much much lower. This even more demolish Mr. Terry´s lie about shoes which allegedly belonged to victims of AR camps and this also even more demolish his claim about "convergence of numbers", if he want to insist on this claim about shoes of victims of AR camps, he must lower number of victims of AR camps considerably, if he don´t want to insist on this claim, he must admit that he lied. I already proved that he lied, so this is the end I think.
It should be. Of course maybe the Soviets
preserved the vast warehouse of shoes.
They did declare Majdanek a museum.


Edit - not "ten thousands", but tens, I forgot "s"



Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

USSR-344 IMT in Nuremberg. GARF, 7445-2-126, pp. 19a-20 (p. 3f).
Good catch. What matt also forgets to explain is
the thickness of the layer. Evidently, the Soviet investigators blew a
bomb off in the small burial pit and scattered the small amount of
human remain mixed with sand.


So no Matthew´s "2 hectares of ash", but mixture of sand and ashes. He can´t interpret his own "sources" correctly and spread false information, same as with Hofle telegram, this is not already only a mischance.

Yep, this is how it goes from orthodox side.[/quote]

What is unfortunate about Believer extremists is that
they prevent honest research and discussion.



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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Gord » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:15 am

David wrote:
Bob wrote:Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

USSR-344 IMT in Nuremberg. GARF, 7445-2-126, pp. 19a-20 (p. 3f).
Good catch. What matt also forgets to explain is
the thickness of the layer.
2 hectares is equal to 20,000 square meters. Square meters only measure surface area, not depth; it if almost measured depth, it would be in cubic meters.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:18 am

David wrote: Edit - not "ten thousands", but tens, I forgot "s"
You two idiots are not doing a good job are you. The 151,000 pairs of shoes and 216,000 overcoats mentioned in NO-1257 are only from Treblinka up until 30Dec42. Can you two geniuses explain why 216,000 overcoats were taken off jews at Treblinka II in winter? (Hint: They executed the people wearing the clothes)
Bob wrote:Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
Bob wrote:But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.
So there is sand mixed with the human ash over 20,000 square metres in piles like this.......
http://iis.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... _1_web.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can one of you idiots explain how 20,000 square metres of human ash got mixed up with the sand at Treblinka if , as Bob pretends, Treblinka was a transit camp? Did aliens do this?
Lukaszkiewicz wrote:....an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin
So Bob and David, the holocaust deniers can't explain the human ash, can't explain where the clothes came from, can't explain why no trains with Jews left, can't explain where the weekly 18-32 kilos of gold came from, can't explain the confessions by the commanding officers, can't explain all the Polish and German eyewitnesses, can't explain why Eichmann said it was an extermination camp, can't find one Jew who was transited through Treblinka and so on.

You are just two junior holocaust deniers but David, unlike Bob, was brave enough have a hypothesis about Treblinka II and it was hilarious.....do you remember David?
David on 5Aug2010 wrote:5,000 people worked at each Treblinka camp. Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed
Remember, you made this "gem" up and got caught out in seconds. Your turn Bob!

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?
He wrote down the numbers written on chalk on the covered wagons. He handed the train records to Lukaszkiewicz.....you obviously haven't read anything on Zabecki Go away and do some basic reading.....
I did not ask about train records, I asked if:

-Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?

Since he said, that he allegedly didn´t see anyone who left Treblinka II, this question is important, answer, no dodging.

Train record isn´t proof of murder, record prove only transports.
-Can you show me some report containing these alleged records? (He said he counted them, all 1,200,000 peoples, so he for sure handed to Lukaszkiewicz records proving this number.)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Did Lukaszkiewicz take some photo (or did he filmed it) of alleged amount of human ashes? Do you have some?
- The photos are on the Internet and have been for years. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading.
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl ... 34x434.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know this known photo.
-How can I know that photo is from Treblinka II? How can I know that this is not another false photo?
-I see bones of maybe two bodies, this is proof of mass murder?
This could be easily from buried dead deportees when we know that the minimal number is 713,555
-According to narrative, bodies of murdered were buried, digged up, cremated, bones crushed and digged in again to mass graves (Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, pp. 1481-87.), how is possible to see such a bones allegedly in Treblinka II? This contradict official narrative.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Did he documented it or do you have only written text report without physical evidence to support it?
He sent the human ash for forensic analysis who confirmed it was human. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading
I know what he wrote
-Where is forensic report of these ashes? Provide me with source.
-Human ash is prove of mass murder or prove that some dead peoples were cremated here?
-Why did Lukaszkiewicz did not documented this amount of ashes? I see only words, that´s all, why I should believe in this?


I don´t care about Krege analysis, he did not publish any report, any data, only one scan and video.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?[/b]
You have never heard nor seen the Treblinka monument? You know.....where they covered the ash in memory to the approx 800,000 people executed there? You know....where Richard Krege, the holocaust denier faked his GPR analysis. Go away and do some basic reading.
Again, dodging, I asked you:

- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?

Can you provide me with source which speaks about collecting all of this alleged found ash mixed with sand and that they buried it as you want to tell me?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:- Can you show me at least one mass grave from that all in which the alleged 870,00 victims were buried? [/b](Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, p. 1486)
You are obviously a junior holocaust denier. Here is a photo of Lukaszkiewicz standing in one of the mass graves at Treblinka they excavated. .
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of the excavated grave? Sorry, I don´t see anything what signalize mass grave, that is propably why the Lukaszkiewicz wrote:
November 9, 1945
Excavations were begun on the grounds using the services of 20 workers who had been mustered by the village administration for carrying out roadwork. The excavations began at the location described by the witness Rajzman on November 6, where the so-called ‘camp hospital’ had stood and where, according to the witness, a mass grave is supposed to exist. Since a bomb crater 4 to 5 meters deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater. In the course of this work numerous Polish, as well as Russian, German, Austrian, and Czech coins and broken pieces of various kinds of containers were discovered. At the end of the work, at approximately 3 pm, at a depth of 6 meters, we encountered a layer which had not been reached previously. No human remains were found.

November 10, 1945
The work was continued, with 36 workers who had been commandeered for roadwork. At a depth of 6 meters begins a layer which has never before been uncovered by anyone. It consists partly of all sorts of kitchen utensils
and different kinds of household objects; there are also pieces of clothing. At a depth of 7 meters, we reached the bottom of the pit – a layer of yellow sand which is not mixed with gravel. By additional digging we succeeded in determining the shape of the pit. It has sloping walls, and the bottom measures about 1.5 meters [sic!]. The pit was presumably dug out with an excavator. During the course of the excavations, numerous more or less badly damaged Polish documents were discovered, in addition the badly damaged personal identity card of a German Jew, as well as several more coins: Polish, German, Russian, Belgian, and even American. After we had made certain that this pit, filled with broken pieces of the containers already mentioned, ran in a north-south direction on the grounds of the camp area – 2 meters more [in a northerly direction] had been excavated – the workers started work at this location.

November 11, 1945
A series of test excavations was performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug, uncovering undisturbed layers of earth. The largest of the craters produced by explosions (numerous fragments
attest to the fact that these explosions were set off by bombs), which is at maximum 6 meters deep and has a diameter of about 25 meters – its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains – was further excavated in order to discover the depth of the pit in this part of the camp. Numerous human remains were found by these excavations, still partially in a state of decomposition.[208] The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, and is of a dark gray color, granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped.

November 13, 1945
With the assistance of 30 workers employed for roadwork, the opening of a pit was begun – a site where refuse was deposited in the northeastern section of the camp. In this location, as the workers from the nearby hamlets explained, a very large number of documents had been found so far. Work was begun at this location, where the people [of that area] had dug a three-meter-deep pit in a search for gold. During the course of the digging, broken pieces of all sorts of kitchen containers as well as a large number of rags were found. Aside from the coins discovered so far, Greek, Slovakian, and French ones were found, as well as documents in Hebrew and Polish and remnants of a Soviet passport. At a depth of 5 meters the work was stopped due to the steadily worsening weather conditions.

Decision:
The Examining Judge of Siedlce, on November 13, 1945, rules in consideration of the fact that with great probability no mass graves are any longer to be found on the grounds of the former camp today, as is to be concluded from the witness testimonies examined so far and from the results of the work carried out at the site, and in consideration of the oncoming autumn, the present rainfall and the necessity of a rapid conclusion of the judicial preliminary investigations, in view of all these facts that work on the territory of the former death camp Treblinka is to stop.

The Examining Judge
Lukaszkiewicz.”

Stanislaw Wojtczak, “Karny obóz pracy Treblinka I i osrodek zaglady Treblinka II,” in: Biuletyn
Glównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni Hitlerowskich w Polsce, Warsaw 1975, XXVI, pp. 183-185.

“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned, all the more so since the camp was liquidated early and the murderers had much time. The ground of the camp was ploughed and sown. Ukrainians were settled there; they fled before the arrival of the Red Army (witnesses Kucharek and Lopuszynski).”

USSR-344. GARF, 7445-2-126
p. 324a (p. 12)
So Matthew:

-What mass grave did you show to me since Lukaszkiewicz clearly speak about no mass graves found?
-You see something which resemble mass grave in this photo allegedly from Treblinka II?
-Again I do not see if this photo is from Treblinka II, how can I know that is from Treblinka II?
-Again, why did he not take photo of this one grave which he allegedly found in blast crater?
(Or photo from you is the one of this crater?)
-Why did he not find mass graves according to witness´s testimonies? They dissappeared?
-Remains, ashes, crushed bones and of coures wooden ahs were allegedly digged to mass graves, where are those mass graves when even Lukaszkiewicz did not find them with help of testimonies?
-Why is problem to find only one single mass grave in location of only of 1,4 hectares (Camp 2 - Extermination area)?
(measurements from Lukaszkiewicz map, Biuletyn Glównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni niemieckich w Polsce, Posen 1946, Volume I)

He allegedly found remains also in state of decomposition in one grave which was blown up by bombing after the camp was dismantled and remains were spread around. No surprise, some peoples clearly died even in Transit camp with minimal numbers of deportees 713,555. State of decomposition? Interesting, this contradict official narrative.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I believe in transit camp because of proofs and logic, nazi documents cleary stated this as I proved,
A transit camp with 20,000 square meters of human ash, no transport out of and no survivors found, with two gas chambers. You are not very bright are you?
Again Lie, I proved you that no 2 hectares of ashes, but mixture of sand and ashes. No transport out? (again Zabecki, see my questions about him) Two gas chambers? According to standard narrative there were 13 gas chambers, three from first phase and 10 from second phase. (Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, pp. 1481-87.) No survivors? Fantastic, who is Rajzman, Wiernik, Glazar and other alleged witnesses? You have just refuted them as the witnesses, when you said "no survivors". Good.

Where are those gas chamber buildings you are talking about? Lukaszkiewicz again:
November 11, 1945

A series of test excavations was performed at the place where the [gas] chambers had to have been located, in order to find their foundation walls if possible. Pits 10 - 15 meters in length and 1.5 meters deep were dug, uncovering undisturbed layers of earth.
So no foundations found, no gas chambers found.

-Where are those gas chambers traces in Treblinka? They disappeared? Is possible to get rid of a buildings and leave no trace?
-Why did they magically removed any traces of gas chambers in Treblinka but for example in Auschwitz, Dachau, Majdanek, Mauthausen, Stuthoff, castle Hartheim and etc. they left gas chambers to us intact, why? For future museum purposes?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Yes, discussion from my side isn´t against law yet,
So why bring it up? Simply state your working hypothesis as to how approx 800,000 people left Treblinka II on foot, where the human ash comes from and why there were gas chambers and mass graves at Treblinka II.
This is irrelevant from you and strawman, I see you did not prove existence of mass graves, you did not prove existence of gas chambers, you did not prove that Zabecki saw no peoples deported from Treblinka II since you are not even able to answer me if he could observe this camp, so I don´t know what you are taking about. On the other side, your own source Lukaszkiewicz is against you.

800, 000? Interesting, so 70,000 of alleged victims disappeared now? (870,000 Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, vol. 4, p. 1486)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I do not understand, the Germans guarded whole railway 24 hours or what did you try to say? Answer my question again.
What is the length of the single rail spur that lead to Treblinka. Are you saying the Polish resistance should have launched a major attack outside an extermination camp and because they didn't there was no camp? You're not very bright are you?
Again, I don´t understand to this answer, you are still more confused, just answer my question, where is problem?

-Why didn´t they damage rails to stop exteminations? Why?

Why did they simple don´t damage the railway? What major attack, what length of rail spur? The only thing needed to stop murdering is to damage railway in some place on the railway which would stop transports, so what is your answer to this simple question?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Can you tell me why the stupid nazis entrusted this important top secret task to some Zabecki who was even member of Polish underground?
I don't think Zabecki rang the Germans up and said “Hi I'm in the Polish underground” Do you? You're not very bright are you?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Why did not they entrust this task to some nazi officer who is familiar with this top secret operation and obviously more trustworthy?
Zabecki was the station master in Poland and spoke Polish. He had normal duties as well. The Germans were already using Lithuanians and Ukrainians in the camps. Do you think there were unlimited German officers who could run train lines?
I did not say that the nazis knew that he is member of underground, but nazis for sure knew, that he is polish, they can´t trust him, they can´t control him since he wasn´t even held in Trebinka II camp, or did he? So this is major difference, he wasn´t even held in the camp to be as partly sure that he will not babble about it. No nazis were able to speak Polish? Fantastic. Ukranians and the others were held in the camp, am I correct? Ukranians and the others allegedly assisted and collaborated with the nazis in their task to allegedly exterminate Jews so it means that Zabecki also assisted nazis and he collaborated since you compared it? Fantastic you just killed your own witness, you are more confused that Mr. Terry was.

So answer my question again and no dodging this time again, I want to be sure that you really said what you have said.

-Can you tell me why the stupid nazis entrusted this important top secret task to some Zabecki who was even member of Polish underground? Why did not they entrust this task to some nazi officer who is familiar with this top secret operation and obviously more trustworthy?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:You believe in Barry the dog
OK.... you are indeed a loony. Here is a photo of Barry the dog.
http://www.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... /58148.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Problem isn t in existence of Barry, but existence of stories surrounding the Barry, sou you believe it? Barry is true? Or Barry is only ordinary dog?

you dodged my questions.

-Am I correct? You believe him? Yes or No? (Zabecki, see his testimonies again in Jan 16, 2012 1:25 pm or here http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

-Why Henryk Gawkowski (locomotive driver) didn´t see any dark clouds covering sky even in brilliant days, how he could miss such a cremation activity?
-Why did he found that they were exterminated only after the war when Zabecki allegedly did see all of this in his Treblinka village station?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:50 pm

Gord wrote:
David wrote:
Bob wrote:Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.

USSR-344 IMT in Nuremberg. GARF, 7445-2-126, pp. 19a-20 (p. 3f).
Good catch. What matt also forgets to explain is
the thickness of the layer.
2 hectares is equal to 20,000 square meters. Square meters only measure surface area, not depth; it if almost measured depth, it would be in cubic meters.
Is correct to assume that this alleged layer was thin and amount of ashes/sand mixture wasn´t much significant since in the case of thick layer he (Lukaszkiewcz) would write this to his report, he wrote about details like coins and other unimportant things, but about density or thickness of this alleged layer of ashes/sand? I see nothing.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:47 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:The Amazing Shoe Excuse! However the claim that the Soviets would have found a warehouse with 800,000 pairs of shoes in it also sounds strange.
Are you and David having a contest as to who knows the least about Treblinka II? You both win!

Nuremberg Document NO-1257 (as compiled by the SS not the allies.)

Particularly illuminating is a report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of items seized ( Treblinka). Among them were 221 train cars' worth of appropriated clothing sent to the Office for Germanisation, useless to the dead but otherwise essential to any who would have actually been transported to the east, i.e. none.
[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs
Ouh, it seems you have been tricked by H-H.org, you are not the first.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... -treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the whole truth, the supplement appended to this document which contains 825 cars of things (not all cloths), from February 6 1943 by SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl:
"classification of the quantity of used textiles delivered from the Lublin and Auschwitz camps by order of the Head Administrative Office of SS Economics unit"
So end of story, but I will refute your "proof" anway.

Yitzak Arad added:
"This report relates to the textile materials transferred during 1942. That year the majority of deported Jews were sent to the death camps of Operation Reinhard rather than to Auschwitz; therefore, these camps were the main source of the textiles mentioned in Pohl 's report."

Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps, Indiana
University Press, Bloomington and Indianapolis 1987, p. 160.
So Arad despite the official document and its supplement which was appended to this document, he try to tells us that this is not from Auschwitz or Lublin, but mainly from AR camps. H-H.org, according to Mr. Romanov the "well known credible source" try to tell us the same thing as Arad.


Little overview
Bob

According to orthodox sources, period of gassings in Belzec - March 1942 - end 1942
According to orthodox sources, period of gassings in Treblinka - July/August 1942 - April 1943 (only some transport gassed until August 1943)
According to orthodox sources, period of gassings in Sobibor - May 1942 - July 1942 / October 1942 - September 1943.

As you see, most of the victims allegedly killed in 1942, the period from Pohl document about cloths and other things, this is important for further information.
This claim about "proof from Pohl" is also refuted by your own next source Sergey Romanov, Nick Terry and the others form HCblog.
"Considering the numbers of deportees from each place of provenance, this means that 36,400 out of 169,000, or about 21.5 % of the total, were children below the age of 16.

"Assuming that one third of deportees from Polish ghettos were children under 14"


Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. Chapter 8: Burning of the Corpses (3). Fuel Requirements. Romanov, Terry, and the others"
Because they wanted to refute revisionist about fuel requirements, they claimed that allegedly about 21,5-30% of victims are children. But in your post about Pohl document I see:
Children's clothing:
"shoes - 22,000 pairs"
So they allegedly killed "only" approximately 22, 000 children in 1942, but Mr. Romanov and the other members associated with H-H.org claims, that around 21-30% of victims were children, this means around 500,000-750,000 murdered children in 1942 according to orthodox sources (http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p267517" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Total - 3,190,000, most of them in 1942) but they gathered only 22,000 pairs of shoes? Where is the rest? This is even more absurd when you take look at the other numbers of shoes which is propably the only figure which can tell us something about number of alleged numbers of victims. But we already know that in Lublin, there was warehouse and store for shoes from other camps, from soldiers and etc., see http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 20#p267733" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; so this is again even more absurd to assume that shoes in Pohl report are from murdered victims.

So most of the victims were allegedly killed in 1942, according to orthodox sources this would result to propably some minimum number 2,500,000 of cloths of murdered victims in Pohl report. But since is correct to assume that almost every alleged victim had more than one piece of cloth, propably four and more (jacket, pants, shirt, skirt, warm cloth parts, coats and etc.) this would result to some around 10,000,000 pieces of cloths as the minimum number in Pohl letter for year 1942! And even without Auschwitz or Lublin which were allegedly only minor sources according to Arad!

Sorry, but your math don´t work when I see alleged numbers in your comment, everything is totally absurd.

Overview
-your H-H.org source is refuted by supplement which is appended to Pohl´s document since it clearly spoke about "Lublin and Auschwitz" and not about AR camps so this is the end again. Even Arad admited it, but he still try to tell , that this is for sure from AR camps mainly and not from Auschwitz and Lublin.

-your H-H.org source for Pohl document refute HCblog in their claim about "21-30% of children"

-your HCblog source refute H-H.org claim about "evidence" from Pohl document since there were allegedly 500,000-750,000 (21-30%) children murdered in 1942 and not 22,000.

-what is more fantastic, some HCblog members are allegedly also members of H-H.org as Romanov stated, so that is what I call a "split contradicting personality"

This "evidence" was easily refuted by nazi document itslef and by orthodox soucres too, by your own orthodox sources.

My Conclusion
Is clear, that this report contain things from Lublin and Auschwitz as stated in supplement to this document. Since one human has more pieces of cloths and one piece don´t means one victim, these numbers look correct for those two camps. In Lublin, there was also store and warehouse for shoes of various of camps, so shoes are correct too. Also, there is not even single word about some murder or execution, victims and etc. This is simple correct explanation without contradictions or absurdities with using nazi document itself.

If you don´t agree, you must explain to me all these absurdities and contradictions from your own orthodox praised sources.

Sorry, I must laugh, I cannot help myself, this is unbelievebale absurd. This only confirm my theory that lie or false information simply cannot work, there will be still some contradictions which will expose this false information.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:59 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote: Edit - not "ten thousands", but tens, I forgot "s"
You two idiots are not doing a good job are you. The 151,000 pairs of shoes and 216,000 overcoats mentioned in NO-1257 are only from Treblinka up until 30Dec42. Can you two geniuses explain why 216,000 overcoats were taken off jews at Treblinka II in winter? (Hint: They executed the people wearing the clothes)
Bob wrote:Here is another lie, this time from Matthew again:
Matthew Ellard wrote:If Justice Lukaszkiewicz found 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka II(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka (sic!)(...)The 20,000 square metres of human ash at Treblinka(...)So you deny the 20,000 square metres of human ash.
Bob wrote:But what Lukaszkiewicz actually wrote about what he allegedly found?:
In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand.
So there is sand mixed with the human ash over 20,000 square metres in piles like this.......
http://iis.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... _1_web.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can one of you idiots explain how 20,000 square metres of human ash got mixed up with the sand at Treblinka if , as Bob pretends, Treblinka was a transit camp? Did aliens do this?
Lukaszkiewicz wrote:....an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin
So Bob and David, the holocaust deniers can't explain the human ash, can't explain where the clothes came from, can't explain why no trains with Jews left, can't explain where the weekly 18-32 kilos of gold came from, can't explain the confessions by the commanding officers, can't explain all the Polish and German eyewitnesses, can't explain why Eichmann said it was an extermination camp, can't find one Jew who was transited through Treblinka and so on.

You are just two junior holocaust deniers but David, unlike Bob, was brave enough have a hypothesis about Treblinka II and it was hilarious.....do you remember David?
David on 5Aug2010 wrote:5,000 people worked at each Treblinka camp. Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed
Remember, you made this "gem" up and got caught out in seconds. Your turn Bob!

Your claims are adressed above.

Regarding the new photo, are you serious? I see only dirt, stones, I don´t see where is it, where the photo was taken and don´t see anything like ashes, bones and etc.
http://iis.infocenters.co.il/gfh/multim ... _1_web.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Road to Treblinka, please notice, is full of bones and made from human ash. Warning, offensive content, on your own risk!

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge ... Fa3u7B.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SS murderer want to kill Jewish children in front of the mountain of human ash! Warning, offensive content, on your own risk!
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/11/ ... 34x525.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:08 pm

Matthew, you even use "deniers" source to support your claims.
Matthew Ellard wrote:The photos are on the Internet and have been for years. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading.

http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 34x434.jpg
Photo is from this website and article. http://www.thethirdcraft.org/?p=14212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is even caption accompanied with this photo:
Thousands dead: The confiscated shoes of the dead piled up at the Treblinka death camp where it is alleged Polish peasants plundered bodies for valuables.
So photo show shoes, not bones and no mass grave!

Ups, you made my day : ) )

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by David » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:03 pm

Bob wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:color]
Particularly illuminating is a report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 ...
Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000


Ouh, it seems you have been tricked by H-H.org, you are not the first.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... -treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

quote]

Hello Matt- Looks like your "Big Proof" blew up in your face.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that Pohl (a general in the Waffen SS)
would be sending lists of children's underwear to the Himmler, a guy
in charge of 8 combat divisions by the end of 1942?

But then, if I remember correctly, didn't you claim that all the top
German officials were using human soap?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:08 am

Bob wrote: Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
I'm not nervous. Why should I be be? You just another holocaust denier who can't spell and hasn't read anything.

TRAINS
Matthew Ellard wrote:He wrote down the numbers written on chalk on the covered wagons. He handed the train records to Lukaszkiewicz.....you obviously haven't read anything on Zabecki Go away and do some basic reading.....
Bob wrote:I did not ask about train records, I asked if:-Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?
Well go read Zebecki's account of observing the 20 wagons getting unhitched at a time to go into the camp and cite the quote back here with your analysis. I am not reading books for you because you are lazy.
Bob wrote:Since he said, that he allegedly didn´t see anyone who left Treblinka II, this question is important, answer, no dodging.
He had the train movement logs and telexes as well, but you refuse to look at the core material or acknowledge this as you are a holocaust denier. Station master don't simply sit there looking at trains. Have you looked at these records?...No dodging...
Bob wrote:Train record isn´t proof of murder, record prove only transports.
No Bob. They are records that no one left Treblinka II. The human ash and other evidence fills in the evidence manifest concerning executions. Your brain seems to limit you to only thinking about one thing at a time.
Bob wrote:Can you show me some report containing these alleged records? (He said he counted them, all 1,200,000 peoples, so he for sure handed to Lukaszkiewicz records proving this number.)
Shortly after the war the original documentation was deposited at the Siedlce court and copies were taken to the Main Commission Office in Warsaw, where they remain to this day So Bob....book your ticket for Siedlce's records office and report back to us.....

PHOTOS
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl ... 34x434.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [/color][/quote]
Bob wrote:I know this known photo.How can I know that photo is from Treblinka II? How can I know that this is not another false photo?
. The photos match the text of his book that you obviously didn't know existed until just now and his 1948 Report issued by the Criminal Justice Dept of Poland. Are you pretending the whole Polish government had a conspiracy to fake this? That's hilarious! David, the holocaust denier claimed Lukaszkiewicz brought the bones in with him for the photos! You two are just idiots.

Bob wrote: I see bones of maybe two bodies, this is proof of mass murder?.
No Bob. You've forgotten already. The bodies were cremated under SonderAktion 1005. The bones are the one ones that the cremation teams missed. Do you want a quote from the guy who couldn't get the bodies out for cremation?

Bob wrote:Where is forensic report of these ashes?
I assume in the files of the Criminal Justice Dept of Poland. You should make an application to go review them as Mottagno & Graf haven't bothered.
Bob wrote:Human ash is prove of mass murder or prove that some dead peoples were cremated here?
How stupid are you! A minimum of 713,555 go into Treblinka II, none come out and we have 20,000 square meters of human ash and two gas chambers. We have the Commanding officer saying exactly what they did.
Bob wrote: Why did Lukaszkiewicz did not documented this amount of ashes? I see only words, that´s all, why I should believe in this?
Who cares what you believe. You are a holocaust denier. There are also people who believe the earth is flat. I don't care about them either. History is for academics and not loonies who troll forums.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?[/b]
You have never heard nor seen the Treblinka monument? You know.....where they covered the ash in memory to the approx 800,000 people executed there? You know....where Richard Krege, the holocaust denier faked his GPR analysis. Go away and do some basic reading.
Bob wrote: Again, dodging, I asked you: This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?
Write a nice letter to the Treblinka Museum Trust and ask for the names of the contractors who leveled the site, laid the concrete and added the monuments. Don't forget to write up a report.


Matthew Ellard wrote:Here is a photo of Lukaszkiewicz standing in one of the mass graves at Treblinka they excavated.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob wrote:One of the excavated grave? Sorry, I don´t see anything what signalize mass grave
Can I help it if you are stupid?
The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, and is of a dark gray color, granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped.


EMPTY MASS GRAVES AFTER CREMATION
“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned,
Bob wrote:What mass grave did you show to me since Lukaszkiewicz clearly speak about no mass graves found?
The empty mass grave from which the bodies were removed for cremation exactly as Lukaszkiewicz was informed by the eyewitnesses who dug it. Are you having a problems reading this clear statement?

Bob wrote:why did he not take photo of this one grave which he allegedly found in blast crater?
Perhaps he did. You will need to look at his working papers. I only have seen the photos he published in public. Book your ticket to Siedlce. Don't forget to write back to us. Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław Obóz straceń w Treblince PIW, Warszawa 1946
Bob wrote:Why did he not find mass graves according to witness´s testimonies? They dissappeared?
or the eyewitnesses had problems locating the spot after the Germans removed the buildings during Sonder Aktion 1005. Stangl the CO confirms there were many burial pits as do the eyewitnesses.
Bob wrote:Again Lie, I proved you that no 2 hectares of ashes, but mixture of sand and (human) ashes.
No you haven't. There was still 20,000 square metres of human ash, (that's three full sized soccer fields). Is your working hypothesis that the Germans cremated a handful of Jews rather than just bury them and spread these ashes over three football fields?
Bob wrote:Two gas chambers?
That's right. The “old” and the “new”. Didn't you know this?
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bob wrote: Where are those gas chambers traces in Treblinka? They disappeared? Is possible to get rid of a buildings and leave no trace?
Yes Bob. That's was the whole point of Sonder Aktion 1005 and why the Germans planted lupins to hide all evidence of mass murder. Please read some basic books before posting again. Kurt Franz, commanding officer of Treblinka “It was during this time that the original camp was demolished. Everything was levelled off and lupins were planted”


Bob wrote:Why did they magically removed any traces of gas chambers in Treblinka but for example in Auschwitz, Dachau, Majdanek, Mauthausen, Stuthoff, castle Hartheim and etc. they left gas chambers to us intact, why? For future museum purposes?
Because the Germans ran out of manpower, were retreating, failed to meet deadlines and were chaotic when losing the war. You question is as stupid as saying “How come they ran out of tanks?”

BOB CAN'T STATE HIS HYPOTHESIS
Bob wrote:Yes, discussion from my side isn´t against law yet,
So why bring it up? Simply state your working hypothesis as to how approx 800,000 people left Treblinka II on foot, where the human ash comes from and why there were gas chambers and mass graves at Treblinka II.
Bob wrote:This is irrelevant from you and strawman, I see you did not prove existence of mass graves.....
To you.....a holocaust denier....don't make me laugh... Franz Stangl, the commanding officer confessed that there were gas chamber killing Jews at Treblinka. Kurt Franz, the next commanding officer did the same I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On average each day a large train arrived, sometimes there were even two........."I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses”
Bob wrote:You did not prove existence of gas chambers, you did not prove that Zabecki saw no peoples deported from Treblinka II since you are not even able to answer me if he could observe this camp, so I don´t know what you are taking about.
Bad news for you Bob. You have to include all the evidence (telexes, rail logs) in your hypothesis. We haven't even started on clothing, gold, eyewitnesses and confessions by soldiers and the commanding officers.
Bob wrote:Why did they simple don´t damage the railway? What major attack, what length of rail spur? The only thing needed to stop murdering is to damage railway in some place on the railway which would stop transports, so what is your answer to this simple question?
I answered it. You don't have a clue that the Treblinka rail spur is only 7km long patrolled by Germans. Are you pretending that the 1942 Polish resistance should have removed rails in front of Germans holding guns who were instructed to shoot partisans? Did you know what a German track laying train did when partisans removed rails? They shot the partisans and replaced the rails.

So Bob, I need a laugh. What is your hypothesis as to how all the evidence fits together? Is it an international Jewish conspiracy about Treblinka? Is your theory that approx 800,000 jews secretly left Treblinka and decided never to mention this to anyone?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:37 am

Bob wrote:Ouh, it seems you have been tricked by H-H.org, you are not the first.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... -treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So end of story, but I will refute your "proof" anway.
The link supports me. It also adds in watches, gold, jewellry etc and all the other things stolen off executed people.
Bob wrote:Yitzak Arad added: "This report relates to the textile materials transferred during 1942. That year the majority of deported Jews were sent to the death camps of Operation Reinhard rather than to Auschwitz; therefore, these camps were the main source of the textiles mentioned in Pohl 's report."
Bob...Treblinka was an Operation Reinhard camp. Are you a bit confused?
Bob wrote:So Arad despite the official document and its supplement which was appended to this document, he try to tells us that this is not from Auschwitz or Lublin, but mainly from AR camps.
That's right Bob. Treblinka was an AR camp.
Bob wrote:Children's clothing: "shoes - 22,000 pairs" So they allegedly killed "only" approximately 22, 000 children in 1942,
No. They only recovered 22,000 usable shoes from the victims. Your logic is terrible. There were many more children victims than good shoes recovered. We also don't know if they recovered all the good shoes anyway. You are a bit thick.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:45 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: The photos are on the Internet and have been for years. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading.
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 34x434.jpg
Bob wrote:Photo is from this website and article. http://www.thethirdcraft.org/?p=14212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; There is even caption accompanied with this photo:
Have you thought about looking for the other photos on other official websites rather than comment on one that I quickly found for you as you were too lazy?
Bob wrote:Ups, you made my day : ) )
Oops..... Bob only looked at one photo that Matthew quickly found on Google and didn't look for the others.....Bob doesn't like to do research.

Try this book..... Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław. "Obóz straceń w Treblince" PIW, Warszawa 1946.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:TRAINS
Matthew Ellard wrote:He wrote down the numbers written on chalk on the covered wagons. He handed the train records to Lukaszkiewicz.....you obviously haven't read anything on Zabecki Go away and do some basic reading.....
Bob wrote:I did not ask about train records, I asked if:-Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?
Well go read Zebecki's account of observing the 20 wagons getting unhitched at a time to go into the camp and cite the quote back here with your analysis. I am not reading books for you because you are lazy.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Since he said, that he allegedly didn´t see anyone who left Treblinka II, this question is important, answer, no dodging.
He had the train movement logs and telexes as well, but you refuse to look at the core material or acknowledge this as you are a holocaust denier. Station master don't simply sit there looking at trains. Have you looked at these records?...No dodging...
No dodging, answer my question

-Zabecki could observe Treblinka II from his Treblinka village station?

Again Lie, he said
"But I stood there in that station day after day and counted the figures chalked on each carriage."
So yes, he allegedly stood there and counted. I did not see your alleged records proving murder of 1,200,000 as Zabekci said, you did not reproduced them. Again I don´t know how records prove murder, you refused to answer.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Train record isn´t proof of murder, record prove only transports.
No Bob. They are records that no one left Treblinka II. The human ash and other evidence fills in the evidence manifest concerning executions. Your brain seems to limit you to only thinking about one thing at a time.
Records that nobody left Treblinka II? Wow, please,

-Tell me source where I can see records that nobody left Treblinka II. This is great proof, tell me.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Can you show me some report containing these alleged records? (He said he counted them, all 1,200,000 peoples, so he for sure handed to Lukaszkiewicz records proving this number.)
Shortly after the war the original documentation was deposited at the Siedlce court and copies were taken to the Main Commission Office in Warsaw, where they remain to this day So Bob....book your ticket for Siedlce's records office and report back to us.....
Very interesting, why the number of alleged victim is 870,000 (Gutman) or 750,000 (Hilberg) 700,000 (A. Rückerl) 200-250,000 (Pressac) when there are alleged record of 1,200,000?

-Why these orthodox historians claim that there are 870,000 or lower victims when in the "Main Commission Office in Warsaw" are allegedly deposited records from Zabecki with 1,200,000 victims according to your claim?
Matthew Ellard wrote:PHOTOS
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl ... 34x434.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; [/color]
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:I know this known photo.How can I know that photo is from Treblinka II? How can I know that this is not another false photo?
. The photos match the text of his book that you obviously didn't know existed until just now and his 1948 Report issued by the Criminal Justice Dept of Poland. Are you pretending the whole Polish government had a conspiracy to fake this? That's hilarious! David, the holocaust denier claimed Lukaszkiewicz brought the bones in with him for the photos! You two are just idiots.
Photo match text of book? Genuinity of photo is proved by text in book?

-What text?
-What book?

-Genuinity of photo is proved by text in book?

And again:

-What mass grave did you show to me since Lukaszkiewicz clearly speak about no mass graves found?
-You see something which resemble mass grave in this photo allegedly from Treblinka II?
-Again I do not see if this photo is from Treblinka II, how can I know that is from Treblinka II?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: I see bones of maybe two bodies, this is proof of mass murder?.
No Bob. You've forgotten already. The bodies were cremated under SonderAktion 1005. The bones are the one ones that the cremation teams missed. Do you want a quote from the guy who couldn't get the bodies out for cremation?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Where are those gas chambers traces in Treblinka? They disappeared? Is possible to get rid of a buildings and leave no trace?
Yes Bob. That's was the whole point of Sonder Aktion 1005 and why the Germans planted lupins to hide all evidence of mass murder. Please read some basic books before posting again. Kurt Franz, commanding officer of Treblinka “It was during this time that the original camp was demolished. Everything was levelled off and lupins were planted”
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Why did they magically removed any traces of gas chambers in Treblinka but for example in Auschwitz, Dachau, Majdanek, Mauthausen, Stuthoff, castle Hartheim and etc. they left gas chambers to us intact, why? For future museum purposes?
Because the Germans ran out of manpower, were retreating, failed to meet deadlines and were chaotic when losing the war. You question is as stupid as saying “How come they ran out of tanks?”
Yes, of course, i want. They missed two bodies from 870,000, that is what are you trying to tell me?

Sonderaktion 1005? I awaited this claim from you.

-Can you show me some documental basis which prove this alleged SonderAktion 1005, source please?
-Why did they forget to remove all traces of alleged mass murder in Auschwitz, Majdanek, Dachau, Stutthof, Mauthausen, castle Hartheim and in other gassing sites when they knew about approaching Soviets and Allies? They clearly knew about Soviets which captured Majdanek and use this place to spread false claims so why they forget to remove other gassing sites? No manpower? Before retreat from Auschwitz, there were cca 70,000 prisoners


Hope you will not tell me your absurd claim again.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Where is forensic report of these ashes?
I assume in the files of the Criminal Justice Dept of Poland. You should make an application to go review them as Mottagno & Graf haven't bothered.
You assume? So you don´t know, ok.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Human ash is prove of mass murder or prove that some dead peoples were cremated here?
How stupid are you! A minimum of 713,555 go into Treblinka II, none come out and we have 20,000 square meters of human ash and two gas chambers. We have the Commanding officer saying exactly what they did.
See again

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267894" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267954" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is unbelieveable, I proved that you lied but you still repeat it again and again.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:- This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?[/b]
You have never heard nor seen the Treblinka monument? You know.....where they covered the ash in memory to the approx 800,000 people executed there? You know....where Richard Krege, the holocaust denier faked his GPR analysis. Go away and do some basic reading.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: Again, dodging, I asked you: This incredible amount of human ashes is still in this camp? If not, where is it? Who clear it and why?
Write a nice letter to the Treblinka Museum Trust and ask for the names of the contractors who leveled the site, laid the concrete and added the monuments. Don't forget to write up a report.
So you don´t know again, ok.
Matthew Ellard wrote:Here is a photo of Lukaszkiewicz standing in one of the mass graves at Treblinka they excavated.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:One of the excavated grave? Sorry, I don´t see anything what signalize mass grave
Can I help it if you are stupid?
The soil consists of ashes interspersed with sand, and is of a dark gray color, granulous in form. During the excavations, the soil gave off an intense odor of burning and decay. At a depth of 7.5 meters the bottom was reached, which consisted of layers of unmixed sand. At this point the digging was stopped.
You are off again, i clearly spoke about your alleged photo

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see nothing which show grave or mass grave, I don´t see where and when this was taken, see again:

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267954" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:EMPTY MASS GRAVES AFTER CREMATION
“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned,
Bob wrote:What mass grave did you show to me since Lukaszkiewicz clearly speak about no mass graves found?
The empty mass grave from which the bodies were removed for cremation exactly as Lukaszkiewicz was informed by the eyewitnesses who dug it. Are you having a problems reading this clear statement?
You have problem with official narrative:
"The mass graves were opened and the corpses were taken out, to be consumed by the flames of huge pyres (the ‘roasts’). The bones were crushed and, together with the ashes, were reburied in the same graves."

Israel Gutman (ed.), Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, 4 vols., Macmillan, New York 1990, vol. 4, pp. 1481-87.
You are wrong again, mass graves are allegedly still there and contain all ashes, all bones, and also wood ash. So again:

-Why did he not find mass graves according to witness´s testimonies? They dissappeared?
-Remains, ashes, crushed bones and of coures wooden ahs were allegedly digged to mass graves, where are those mass graves when even Lukaszkiewicz did not find them with help of testimonies?
-Why is problem to find only one single mass grave in location of only of 1,4 hectares (Camp 2 - Extermination area)?
(measurements from Lukaszkiewicz map, Biuletyn Glównej Komisji Badania Zbrodni niemieckich w Polsce, Posen 1946, Volume I)
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:why did he not take photo of this one grave which he allegedly found in blast crater?
Perhaps he did. You will need to look at his working papers. I only have seen the photos he published in public. Book your ticket to Siedlce. Don't forget to write back to us. Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław Obóz straceń w Treblince PIW, Warszawa 1946
Perhaps? You supplied me with this
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl ... 34x434.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And now you say "perhaps" Ths means that these photos are not of the one grave he allegedly found in crater, good.

Perhaps mean that if some photo really exist they would spread it to the whole world, nobody did not show such a photo, so is correct to assume that no such a photo exist, simple.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Why did he not find mass graves according to witness´s testimonies? They dissappeared?
or the eyewitnesses had problems locating the spot after the Germans removed the buildings during Sonder Aktion 1005. Stangl the CO confirms there were many burial pits as do the eyewitnesses.
Eyewitnesses had problems to locate them only in 1,4 hectare? Ok, here Elias Rosenberg:

Graves are 120m x 15m x 6m

Elias Rosenberg, Tatsachenbericht. Das Todeslager Treblinka, Vienna, December 24, 1947.p. 137 (p. 5 of the report).
This grave has 1800m2 there should be several of them to accomodate all reamins of 870,000 victims, according to these map, there are six of them in precisely known locations

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... 0trial.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and this means that almost 10,800m2 of this camp are mass graves according to Rosenberg, so:

-Why didn´t they find (Lukaszkiewicz and witnesses) even one alleged mass grave which is 1800m2 (elias Rosenberg) when the are of Camp 2 (extermination area) is only 14,000 m2 (buildings not included!) and all six graves have according to Rosenberg 10,800m2? How did they missed them?
-How is possible to foget location of all alleged mass graves after more than year of work in this alleged place?
-Is possible to remove all traces of buildings? No patch on the ground, no foundations, nothing? Fantastic.

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Again Lie, I proved you that no 2 hectares of ashes, but mixture of sand and (human) ashes.
No you haven't. There was still 20,000 square metres of human ash, (that's three full sized soccer fields). Is your working hypothesis that the Germans cremated a handful of Jews rather than just bury them and spread these ashes over three football fields?


I haven´t? See
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267894" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Two gas chambers?
That's right. The “old” and the “new”. Didn't you know this?
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I know, but you ignore what I am writing:
Bob wrote: Jan 17, 2012 3:45 pm
Two gas chambers? According to standard narrative there were 13 gas chambers, three from first phase and 10 from second phase. (Gutman, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, pp. 1481-87.)
You quoted "two gas chambers" part and you completely missed the rest? Propably the same situation as with witnesses, right? Matthew, again, no two gas chambers, but allegedly 13 in two buildings.
Matthew Ellard wrote:BOB CAN'T STATE HIS HYPOTHESIS
Bob wrote:Yes, discussion from my side isn´t against law yet,
So why bring it up? Simply state your working hypothesis as to how approx 800,000 people left Treblinka II on foot, where the human ash comes from and why there were gas chambers and mass graves at Treblinka II.
You did not prove that nobody left, amount of human ash and you did not prove even one single mass grave and you did not prove gas chambers. Lukaszkiewicz proved, that no gas chambers found, no mass grave found in Treblinka II.

Great strawman again.

My hypothesis is clear, transit camp, simple. Don´t tell me about "nobody left, ashes" and other things which you didn´t prove.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:This is irrelevant from you and strawman, I see you did not prove existence of mass graves.....
To you.....a holocaust denier....don't make me laugh... Franz Stangl, the commanding officer confessed that there were gas chamber killing Jews at Treblinka. Kurt Franz, the next commanding officer did the same I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On average each day a large train arrived, sometimes there were even two........."I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses”
Good, again confessions, but you must back it up, confession is useless when is not backed up. Common, show me whole source for their confession, what are you waiting for? Then prove something which support what they have said.

Here is one new for you, victims from CO poisoning are not blue-black, they are cherry pink.
http://www.codoh.com/graphics4/nrtkcoill3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.codoh.com/graphics4/nrtkcoill2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No black blue, he clearly spoke about something what he didn´t see.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:You did not prove existence of gas chambers, you did not prove that Zabecki saw no peoples deported from Treblinka II since you are not even able to answer me if he could observe this camp, so I don´t know what you are taking about.
Bad news for you Bob. You have to include all the evidence (telexes, rail logs) in your hypothesis. We haven't even started on clothing, gold, eyewitnesses and confessions by soldiers and the commanding officers.
Matthew Ellard wrote:So Bob, I need a laugh. What is your hypothesis as to how all the evidence fits together? Is it an international Jewish conspiracy about Treblinka? Is your theory that approx 800,000 jews secretly left Treblinka and decided never to mention this to anyone?
What evidence? You didn´t prove anything and when I refute your claim or place unsuitable questions you just ignore it and spam your alleged proof again and again.

Here are ignored questions

-Can you tell me why the stupid nazis entrusted this important top secret task to some Zabecki who was even member of Polish underground? Why did not they entrust this task to some nazi officer who is familiar with this top secret operation and obviously more trustworthy?
-Am I correct? You believe him? Yes or No? (Zabecki, see his testimonies again in Jan 16, 2012 1:25 pm or here http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
-Why Henryk Gawkowski (locomotive driver) didn´t see any dark clouds covering sky even in brilliant days, how he could miss such a cremation activity?
-Why did he found that they were exterminated only after the war when Zabecki allegedly did see all of this in his Treblinka village station?

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Why did they simple don´t damage the railway? What major attack, what length of rail spur? The only thing needed to stop murdering is to damage railway in some place on the railway which would stop transports, so what is your answer to this simple question?
I answered it. You don't have a clue that the Treblinka rail spur is only 7km long patrolled by Germans. Are you pretending that the 1942 Polish resistance should have removed rails in front of Germans holding guns who were instructed to shoot partisans? Did you know what a German track laying train did when partisans removed rails? They shot the partisans and replaced the rails.
Whole track which was used to transport peoples to Treblinka was patroled by Germans? Fantastic.

-Can you provide me with source for this claim?
-Why removing rails? Just place explosive charge.

RICH-ENGLAND
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:23 am

as posted by pyrrho in another thread.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 90076.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich

Bob
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Posts: 666
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:26 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Ouh, it seems you have been tricked by H-H.org, you are not the first.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/operat ... -treblinka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So end of story, but I will refute your "proof" anway.
The link supports me. It also adds in watches, gold, jewellry etc and all the other things stolen off executed people.
No, you have been tricked by false information, but dont worry, you are not first.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Yitzak Arad added: "This report relates to the textile materials transferred during 1942. That year the majority of deported Jews were sent to the death camps of Operation Reinhard rather than to Auschwitz; therefore, these camps were the main source of the textiles mentioned in Pohl 's report."
Bob...Treblinka was an Operation Reinhard camp. Are you a bit confused?
I know, but this document from Pohl is only about Lublin and Auschwitz, do you understand finally? See again

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267965" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:So Arad despite the official document and its supplement which was appended to this document, he try to tells us that this is not from Auschwitz or Lublin, but mainly from AR camps.
That's right Bob. Treblinka was an AR camp.
But this Document isn´t about AR camps, see again

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267965" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Children's clothing: "shoes - 22,000 pairs" So they allegedly killed "only" approximately 22, 000 children in 1942,
No. They only recovered 22,000 usable shoes from the victims. Your logic is terrible. There were many more children victims than good shoes recovered. We also don't know if they recovered all the good shoes anyway. You are a bit thick.
Yes, they collected 22,000 shoes from someone, not victims, that´s all, see again.

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p267965" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My logic is ok, shoes don´t prove murder, that´s my logic, simple.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: The photos are on the Internet and have been for years. You obviously haven't bothered looking or read the Polish report. Go away and do some basic reading.
http://thethirdcraft.org/wp-content/upl" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 34x434.jpg
Bob wrote:Photo is from this website and article. http://www.thethirdcraft.org/?p=14212" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; There is even caption accompanied with this photo:
Have you thought about looking for the other photos on other official websites rather than comment on one that I quickly found for you as you were too lazy?
I saw lot of photos but no photo which prove alleged claims, simple. You did not show even one, you always just show some photo but you don´t know anything about it.
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Ups, you made my day : ) )
Oops..... Bob only looked at one photo that Matthew quickly found on Google and didn't look for the others.....Bob doesn't like to do research.

Try this book..... Łukaszkiewicz Zdzisław. "Obóz straceń w Treblince" PIW, Warszawa 1946.
Thanks for your admit, you clearly admited that you just only googled some photo and you don´t know anything about it, becuase in the case you know something about it you should quote proper source.

Ups. again.

Bob
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Posts: 666
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:32 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:as posted by pyrrho in another thread.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 90076.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich
This is over two years old "news"

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/11/uk ... a-deniers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So where is report?

Great to see first attempt to locate the mass graves. Interesting I thought that they knew where they are located, so they didn´t and they searched for them.

RICH-ENGLAND
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:47 am

Bob wrote:
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:as posted by pyrrho in another thread.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 90076.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich
This is over two years old "news"

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/11/uk ... a-deniers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So where is report?

Great to see first attempt to locate the mass graves. Interesting I thought that they knew where they are located, so they didn´t and they searched for them.
are you blind or just being willfully ignorant and stupid?..........

the link you posted is about when she was proposing the work, the latest news is that she has discovered eviidence.....

how should i know where the report is?.... try contacting her or something.... then again, we all know youre far too lazy and ignorant to do such things.

thanks

rich

RICH-ENGLAND
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:30 am

there will be a radio documentary about Caroline Sturdy Colls work at treblinka for those that are interested.
The Hidden Graves of the Holocaust is being broadcast on Monday January 23 on 8pm on BBC Radio 4.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01 ... 08814.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:53 am

Bob wrote:No dodging, answer my question
No Bob I have answered your question twice and you are too slow to understand. Zabecki had both his notes, transport logs and telexes defining movements. You ignored this information Zabecki had and gave to the Polish Commission and pretend that Zabecki also had to physically see all the trains as well (which he may have done). You are simply a stupid holocaust denier editing out evidence (telexes, train logs)that you were informed about in the previous post.
Bob wrote: So yes, he allegedly stood there and counted.
Zabecki also clearly states he had telexes and movement logs but you are pretending to forget this as you are a holocaust denier. Can you please read Zabecki and stop editing out evidence even if you are a holocaust denier
Bob wrote: I did not see your alleged records proving murder of 1,200,000 as Zabekci said, you did not reproduced them. Again I don´t know how records prove murder, you refused to answer.
You are an idiot. I don't keep Zabecki files at my home. They at held at Siedlce in Poland. If you want to look at them go make an appointment. Zabeckis files are about train movements of people. Jews went into Treblinka II and didn't come out. The human ash and other evidence, in conjunction with Zabecki is evidence the mass murder. Are you really stupid or something?
Bob wrote:Records that nobody left Treblinka II? Wow, please,
Trains you idiot. Are you claiming approx 800,000 Jews left Treblinka in a taxi?
Bob wrote: Tell me source where I can see records that nobody left Treblinka II. This is great proof, tell me.
Not people you idiot, the Jewish victims. In 65 years not holocaust denier has ever found one Jewish victim who was transited through Treblinka II out of the approx 800,000 sent there. Zabecki confirms no train with Jews left and we have 20,000 square meters of human ash and the commanding officer confessing there were gas chambers. Are you pretending to be stupid on purpose?
Bob wrote:Very interesting, why the number of alleged victim is 870,000 (Gutman) or 750,000 (Hilberg) 700,000 (A. Rückerl) 200-250,000 (Pressac) when there are alleged record of 1,200,000?
With Zabecki's files. I've told you this three times you idiot! We know it is a minimum of 713,555 by December 1942 after the Hofle Telegram was found in 2000. Have you dated the other authorities or their views on the post Hofle Telegram period at all?
Bob wrote:Photo match text of book? Genuinity of photo is proved by text in book?
So you think a Polish conspiracy exists where the Polish Criminal Commission sends a judge and a team of people to Treblinka, they take photos, excavate the site and in 1948 they fake a book and add fake photos? So you dream that Rachael Auerbach, Lukaszkiewicz, the photographer and all the people there conspired to mix and match photos? You dream that the entire Polish Criminal Commission was on the same conspiracy and never said a word. You dream that an entire fake field with bomb craters was created by Polish conspirators? You are indeed a loony.

No Bob. You've forgotten already. The bodies were cremated under SonderAktion 1005. The bones are the one ones that the cremation teams missed. Do you want a quote from the guy who couldn't get the bodies out for cremation?

Kurt Franz, commanding officer of Treblinka “It was during this time that the original camp was demolished. Everything was levelled off and lupins were planted”
Bob wrote:Yes, of course, i want. They missed two bodies from 870,000, that is what are you trying to tell me?
No Bob. They missed many bodies. I have offered you a quote from the slave worker who couldn't get the bodies out but you ran away. You also obviously have not read Rachael Auerbach. You also have not looked at the other photos with the skulls

Bob wrote: Can you show me some documental basis which prove this alleged SonderAktion 1005, source please?
No. You can look it up in Arad and do some work yourself for a change.
Bob wrote: Why did they forget to remove all traces of alleged mass murder in Auschwitz, Majdanek, Dachau, Stutthof, Mauthausen, castle Hartheim and in other gassing sites when they knew about approaching Soviets and Allies?
I have already explained this. They didn't forget, they ran out of manpower, petrol, leather, tungsten, tanks, food and were running away. You do realise that Treblinka is in Poland, not Germany?
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Where is forensic report of these ashes?
I assume in the files of the Criminal Justice Dept of Poland. You should make an application to go review them as Mottagno & Graf haven't bothered.
Bob wrote:You assume? So you don´t know, ok.
Well Bob, considering this is where the investigation's files are kept don't you think this would be the place the forensic report is? Are you that stupid?
Bob wrote: This is unbelieveable, I proved that you lied but you still repeat it again and again.
No Bob you are just stupid. If there is 20,000 square metres of sand and human ash, spread around, this includes the 20,000 square metres of human ash. Are you pretending that human ash is not there?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Write a nice letter to the Treblinka Museum Trust and ask for the names of the contractors who leveled the site, laid the concrete and added the monuments. Don't forget to write up a report.
Bob wrote:So you don´t know again, ok.
.That's right Bob. I don't know the names of the contractors who built the Treblinka memorial in the 60s and how they treated the human ash. Obviously neither do you. There may have been some form of solemn ceremony but unless you research it yourself and find a conspiracy....who cares?
Matthew Ellard wrote:Here is a photo of Lukaszkiewicz standing in one of the mass graves at Treblinka they excavated.
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigp51.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bob wrote:You are off again, i clearly spoke about your alleged photo. I see nothing which show grave or mass grave, I don´t see where and when this was taken.
Well bad luck for you. The photo was issued by the Polish Criminal Commission and accompanied the report. If you are in your “denial mode” prove it is faked or go away.


“During the work on the terrain, I found no mass graves, which, in connection with the statements by the witnesses Romanowski and Wiernik, leads to the conclusion that nearly all of the bodies of the victims were burned,
Bob wrote:You have problem with official narrative:
No I don't. Lukaszkiewicz excavates the grave and finds no bodies and only human ash, human tissue and soil.
"The mass graves were opened and the corpses were taken out, to be consumed by the flames of huge pyres (the ‘roasts’). The bones were crushed and, together with the ashes, were reburied in the same graves."
And what does Lukaszkiewicz say?... its walls give recognizable evidence of the presence of a large quantity of ashes as well as human remains
Bob wrote:And now you say "perhaps" Ths means that these photos are not of the one grave he allegedly found in crater, good.
. I gave you a photo from google as you demanded a photo. Are you wanting me to link you to the same photo on an official website or post you a copy of the original photo with hand written notes on it?
Bob wrote: Eyewitnesses had problems to locate them only in 1,4 hectare? Ok, here Elias Rosenberg: Graves are 120m x 15m x 6m.
That's right Bob, remember the buildings were removed as a reference point and the human ash covered 20,000 square meters which is more than 1.4 hectares. Didn't you work that out?

What is the date Stangl drew the map of Treblinka and what date was the Polish investigation. Are you saying Lukaszkiewicz had a time machine to read future maps?
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... 0trial.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Bob wrote:How did they missed them?
They missed one and found another and Lukaszkiewicz took a photo. Are you complaining that Lukaszkiewicz didn't excavate all graves in four days?
Bob wrote: Is possible to remove all traces of buildings? No patch on the ground, no foundations, nothing? Fantastic.
You don't believe it because you are a holocaust denier....so what? If the commanding officer of Treblinka says he did it in his confession you should go argue with him unless you think he was in on the conspiracy with the Poles!
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:Two gas chambers?
That's right. The “old” and the “new”. Didn't you know this?

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]
Bob wrote:I know, but you ignore what I am writing:
The old and the new gas chambers.....1 + 1 = 2 Let me know if you need help with the mathematics.

Matthew Ellard wrote:BOB CAN'T STATE HIS HYPOTHESIS
Bob wrote:My hypothesis is clear, transit camp, simple. Don´t tell me about "nobody left, ashes" and other things which you didn´t prove.

You can't explain the 20,000 square meters of human ash.
You can't explain the confessions by the commanding officers that there were gas chambers there.
You can't explain the other German eyewitnesses.
You can't explain the Polish eyewitnesses.
You can't explain why the approx 800,000 Jews are missing.
You can't explain how the Jews left when there are no records of them leaving and no one saw them leave.
You can't explain the clothing taken off the Jews
You can't explain where the 18kg to 36kg of gold came from Treblinka,
You pretend Lukaszkiewicz his team faked a book and report and added fake photos.
You pretend 800,000 Jews were transported somewhere but all decided to keep quiet for 65 years.

Well that is another complete fail from a holocaust denier. At least David's theory that Treblinka II was a munitions factory had some imagination!


Kurt Franz, the next commanding officer did the same I cannot say how many Jews in total were gassed in Treblinka. On average each day a large train arrived, sometimes there were even two........."I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of blue-black corpses”
Bob wrote:Good, again confessions, but you must back it up, confession is useless when is not backed up.


Klee, Ernst, Dressen, Willi, Riess, Volker. The Good Old Days: The Holocaust as Seen by Its Perpetrators and Bystanders, p. 247

Bob wrote:Here is one new for you, victims from CO poisoning are not blue-black, they are cherry pink.
You are indeed an idiot! They are are only pink for four days and then turn blue black, but thanks for letting me know you are from CODOH.
A lawyer's Guide to Forensics
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=CMA ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Bob wrote:No black blue, he clearly spoke about something what he didn´t see.
Wrong again....nice try quoting CODOH. I laughed.
Matthew Ellard wrote:So Bob, I need a laugh. What is your hypothesis as to how all the evidence fits together? Is it an international Jewish conspiracy about Treblinka? Is your theory that approx 800,000 jews secretly left Treblinka and decided never to mention this to anyone?
[/quote]

PS I loved your inability to understand how the Germans patrolled train lines and how you think it is simple for partisans to carry around explosives in front of German soldiers to blow up tracks. Try reading these books. Panzerzuge im Einsatz auf deutscher Seite 1939-1945 Volumes I & II Wolfgang Sawdondy / Schiffler Military History. The Germans had entire track laying trains to repair a kilometre of line in 6 hours. Gosh why didn't the partisans simply stop all trains taking German supplies to Russia?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:20 am

Bob wrote:Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
They're not ad hominems, they're insults.
Bob wrote:Is correct to assume that this alleged layer was thin
No. Nicely misplaced use of the term "alleged" in there, though.
and amount of ashes/sand mixture wasn´t much significant
No, it was significant enough to be mentioned. I'm pretty sure anyone finding 2 hecates of human ash would find that significant.
since in the case of thick layer he (Lukaszkiewcz) would write this to his report
He'd have to measure it to know it. I bet it would take a long time to dig up 2 hectares of land to see how deep the layer was. Then again, he might have been put off by the fact that it's against Jewish law to do so.
he wrote about details like coins and other unimportant things
Things he knew about.
but about density or thickness of this alleged layer of ashes/sand? I see nothing.
So you're saying that lack of evidence is evidence of lack? Normally I'd agree with you, but I see a lack of evidence of your lack of evidence.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:21 am

Poor poor "Bob" and "David"......last of the holocaust deniers.....such bad timing concerning Treblinka.......Tsk tsk tsk......

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 90076.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Independent (Monday January 16 2012)

A FORENSIC archaeologist has unearthed fresh evidence to prove the existence of mass graves at the Nazi death camp Treblinka.......

British forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls has now undertaken the first co-ordinated scientific attempt to locate the graves.......

She added: "I've identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres."


Now can you two crawl back under your rocks from whence came? Perhaps go back to CODOH and blame Richard Krege for giving you false hope from his holocaust denier lies. Please.....just go.....you are boring.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:27 am

@matthew

not sure if you spotterd my post about that but there will be a radio documentary about it The Hidden Graves of the Holocaust is being broadcast on Monday January 23 on 8pm on BBC Radio 4.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01 ... 08814.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:22 am

Matthew Ellard - I see that there is no way how to normally discuss with you, you use only ad homines and are visibly angry or mad or i don´t know how to decribe it, but you ignore everything even when i prove you that you spread false information. I proved several times that you lied, about ash, about Hofle, you obviously lied about Zabecki records, since the official death toll is 870,000 or even 200,000, is imposible that Zabecki records somewhere prove 1,200,000 victims. I already don´t enjoy proving that you are liar and present to non-educated peoples false information. When you are "demolished" in one topic you jump from one to another again and again, classic behavior of believers. You still ignore my questions, for example, I want to know if Zabecki could observe T II to see if someone left T II, and you still repeat "telexes, logs" again and again, you are not table to answer even this.

I will answer it instead of you. No he can´t, this is how he could observe this camp
http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabeckirevolt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is allegedly his photo of revolt, he was quite "close", please you can notice that he photographed revolt, but he didn´t bother to take even one single photo of daily four-month cremations which covered sky even in brilliant day according to him. Even nobody from nearby village didn´t bother to take some photo, even farmers around the camp didn´t bother to take some photo of extermination.

Try to calm down, read my posts properly, at this time I only waste time with you, I was patient enough.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
They're not ad hominems, they're insults.
Maybe you should know what ad hominem mean, try Mr. Romanov definition, is on the first page.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Is correct to assume that this alleged layer was thin
No. Nicely misplaced use of the term "alleged" in there, though.
No misplacing, it wasn´t prove that he found it, so I must use word alleged.
Gord wrote:
and amount of ashes/sand mixture wasn´t much significant
No, it was significant enough to be mentioned. I'm pretty sure anyone finding 2 hecates of human ash would find that significant.
It was not significant enough to mention thick or density, simple. This is even stragne since the extermination are (Camp 2) was only 1,4 hectares, so no way there could be 2 hectares of ash, he lied or someone or something spread this ash to large location which is more propably. See his words, are was bombed, simple.
Gord wrote:
since in the case of thick layer he (Lukaszkiewcz) would write this to his report
He'd have to measure it to know it. I bet it would take a long time to dig up 2 hectares of land to see how deep the layer was. Then again, he might have been put off by the fact that it's against Jewish law to do so.
I didn´t say anything about digging up, he could measure thickness on several different places and make correct guess with these values, simple, where is problem, they digged several deep pits and are not able to do this? What Jewish law? He himself spoke about digging on the place where witness spoke about mass graves, so he evidently didn´t bother about some law. This is another excuse to prevent proper excavation.
Gord wrote:
he wrote about details like coins and other unimportant things
Things he knew about.
Absolutely unimportant things which were evidently more important to him than to mention how thick is alleged layer of ash and sand.
Gord wrote:
but about density or thickness of this alleged layer of ashes/sand? I see nothing.
So you're saying that lack of evidence is evidence of lack? Normally I'd agree with you, but I see a lack of evidence of your lack of evidence.[/quote

Lack of evidence = no evidence, you try to tell me that evidence which don´t exist is evidence anyway, this is really false logic.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:35 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:
Bob wrote:
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:as posted by pyrrho in another thread.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/eu ... 90076.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks

rich
This is over two years old "news"

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2010/11/uk ... a-deniers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So where is report?

Great to see first attempt to locate the mass graves. Interesting I thought that they knew where they are located, so they didn´t and they searched for them.
are you blind or just being willfully ignorant and stupid?..........

the link you posted is about when she was proposing the work, the latest news is that she has discovered eviidence.....

how should i know where the report is?.... try contacting her or something.... then again, we all know youre far too lazy and ignorant to do such things.

thanks

rich
So no reason to bother with this, no report, no proof, you here behave like that this is true, look on Matthew, he is already done and in heavens, he see this article and according to him, mass graves were proven, he evidently has no problem with non-existing report, but when he spoke about Krege, he dismissed him, that´s what I call double standard. When Krege announced that he didn´t found any mass graves using GPR, did you believe him? I guess no when I see your comments here, so why I should believe some Carolyn when she didn´t released any report, any data like Krege? Krege at least released some video and one scan.

Only talking about evidence doesn´t mean that evidence is true.

This article proved only one thing, that until to this year, they didn´t know where are the mass graves or if there are some, because in 2012 they announced that they found them, which means, that before they didn´t find them, simple, that is what revisionist say all the time "do proper inependent investigation" and yes, we have Caroline only speaking about evidence.

Same as with Matthew, you are visibly very nervous, attack me and you have no reason.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:48 am

yawn, bob, you are a waste of time and space...
of course its worth bothering with, its new research and will have to be backed up with results as this lady has now put her integrity and career on it... you arent very smart are you?. your ignorance is beyond astounding...
why dont you try checking it and contacting the lady in question ?.http://www.staffs.ac.uk/directory/viewp ... affid=4852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; oh right, you wouldn't accept it anyway as has been proven in this thread.

ive already posted that there will be a documentary about it on radio soon, maybe the reports will come after ? i dont know and nor do i care, its more evidence to be checked by those that are interested in finding out the truth which you obviously arent as you refuse to read/check/accept anything.

the work is still ongoing as far as im aware so there probably isn't any reports released yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/progin ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

do you think this team of archaeologists have just made this all up bob? lol.... im sure they would look a bit silly if they couldn't eventually provide anything on their findings after announcing them, these people aren't fly by night pseudo scientists like ron wyatt etc...
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/directory/viewp ... affid=4852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

matthew is making you look very silly, not that you need help with that....

what would i need to be nervous about ? lmao. i have no stake in this at all, its not my subject, i just dont like ignorant disengenuous people...

thanks

rich

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Gord » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:37 am

Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
They're not ad hominems, they're insults.
Maybe you should know what ad hominem mean, try Mr. Romanov definition, is on the first page.
I seem to have a better understanding on this, so let me explain it to you: An ad hominem is a personal attack made for the purpose of undermining your argument. An insult is just an insult. Matthew was insulting you.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Is correct to assume that this alleged layer was thin
No. Nicely misplaced use of the term "alleged" in there, though.
No misplacing, it wasn´t prove that he found it, so I must use word alleged.
It's accepted beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore not "alleged."
Gord wrote:
and amount of ashes/sand mixture wasn´t much significant
No, it was significant enough to be mentioned. I'm pretty sure anyone finding 2 hecates of human ash would find that significant.
It was not significant enough to mention thick or density, simple.
It was significant enough to mention, simple. Your desire for more information is your own problem, not his.
Gord wrote:
since in the case of thick layer he (Lukaszkiewcz) would write this to his report
He'd have to measure it to know it. I bet it would take a long time to dig up 2 hectares of land to see how deep the layer was. Then again, he might have been put off by the fact that it's against Jewish law to do so.
I didn´t say anything about digging up, he could measure thickness on several different places and make correct guess with these values, simple....
He would have to dig to determine the thickness of the layer, and would have to make multiple such digs to determine if the thickness is regular across the area or if there are concentrations of more in some spots, less in others.
Gord wrote:
he wrote about details like coins and other unimportant things
Things he knew about.
Absolutely unimportant things which were evidently more important to him than to mention how thick is alleged layer of ash and sand.
Things he knew about. Your desire for him to have done other measurements is irrelevant to what he found worth mentioning. You can call them "unimportant" if you'd like, but your opinion is meaningless.
Gord wrote:
but about density or thickness of this alleged layer of ashes/sand? I see nothing.
So you're saying that lack of evidence is evidence of lack? Normally I'd agree with you, but I see a lack of evidence of your lack of evidence.
Lack of evidence = no evidence, you try to tell me that evidence which don´t exist is evidence anyway, this is really false logic.
I told you about evidence, you are the one talking about lack of evidence. Your attempt to call it "alleged" again is -- one more time -- incorrect. You put words in my mouth that I'm the one dependent upon lack of evidence, when that is in fact your position. Is this how you find out your alleged "truth," by putting words in other peoples' mouths?

Your opinions on logic are faulty.
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:50 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:yawn, bob, you are a waste of time and space...
of course its worth bothering with, its new research and will have to be backed up with results as this lady has now put her integrity and career on it... you arent very smart are you?. your ignorance is beyond astounding...
why dont you try checking it and contacting the lady in question ?.http://www.staffs.ac.uk/directory/viewp ... affid=4852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; oh right, you wouldn't accept it anyway as has been proven in this thread.
No problem, I can contact her.

Fantastic, I have no problem to contact her, but you don´t bother to contact her. Oh, I forgot, you don´t care, but you are still here.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:ive already posted that there will be a documentary about it on radio soon, maybe the reports will come after ? i dont know and nor do i care, its more evidence to be checked by those that are interested in finding out the truth which you obviously arent as you refuse to read/check/accept anything.
Interesting, so radio show will prove existence of mass graves, that is what I call real science. Yeah, everybody always speak about "report will come later" I heard this several times.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:the work is still ongoing as far as im aware so there probably isn't any reports released yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/progin ... caust.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So no mass graves until the report will come out, so what are you talking about? No report, no proof, they admited that they didn´t find any mass graves to this day, so after release of report, you can come and speak about evidence.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:do you think this team of archaeologists have just made this all up bob? lol.... im sure they would look a bit silly if they couldn't eventually provide anything on their findings after announcing them, these people aren't fly by night pseudo scientists like ron wyatt etc...
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/directory/viewp ... affid=4852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeah, sure, these peoples are always right,...jesus.
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:matthew is making you look very silly, not that you need help with that....
Where? Are you serious?
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:what would i need to be nervous about ? lmao. i have no stake in this at all, its not my subject, i just dont like ignorant disengenuous people...

thanks

rich
Yes, me too don´t like ignorant and dogmatic peoples. (no offense, nothing personal to you)

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:56 am

oh my word, you are beyond stupid! hahahaha

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:23 pm

Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Matthew, you seems to be a bit nervous, lot of ad homines.
They're not ad hominems, they're insults.
Maybe you should know what ad hominem mean, try Mr. Romanov definition, is on the first page.
I seem to have a better understanding on this, so let me explain it to you: An ad hominem is a personal attack made for the purpose of undermining your argument. An insult is just an insult. Matthew was insulting you.
No need to further comment this one, unbelieveable.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:Is correct to assume that this alleged layer was thin
No. Nicely misplaced use of the term "alleged" in there, though.
No misplacing, it wasn´t prove that he found it, so I must use word alleged.
It's accepted beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore not "alleged."
Beyond a reasonable doubt, but you can´t prove it, that is what I call "beyond a reasonable doubt". This is true, because Lukaszkiewicz said this = proven fact. Fantastic approach. This is everything what is needed to accept something as fact? Just said something?

How many aliens abductions were proven beyond a reasonable doubt? I only wonder, propably thousands.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:and amount of ashes/sand mixture wasn´t much significant
No, it was significant enough to be mentioned. I'm pretty sure anyone finding 2 hecates of human ash would find that significant.
It was not significant enough to mention thick or density, simple.
It was significant enough to mention, simple. Your desire for more information is your own problem, not his.
Hm, again, no need to further comment this one.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:since in the case of thick layer he (Lukaszkiewcz) would write this to his report
He'd have to measure it to know it. I bet it would take a long time to dig up 2 hectares of land to see how deep the layer was. Then again, he might have been put off by the fact that it's against Jewish law to do so.
I didn´t say anything about digging up, he could measure thickness on several different places and make correct guess with these values, simple....
He would have to dig to determine the thickness of the layer, and would have to make multiple such digs to determine if the thickness is regular across the area or if there are concentrations of more in some spots, less in others.
No digging of whole area needed you obviously have no clue about what is needed to determine thickness. I also spoke about "correct guess" of thickness and not about exact thickness of whole area, so strawman from you. Everything what is needed is to take a several drills to guess how thick is whole area. He had no problem to dig pits, so no problem to make several drills, especially when he was there to prove the biggest crime in human history. Did you ever see some investigation of only one murder site? Obviously not.

You dodged my information, how is possible to find 2 hectares of ashes and sand in 1,4 hectares area, which is the area of alleged extermination camp 2, oh yes, this is accepted "beyond the reasonable doubt"

You also dodged alleged jewish law about not digging the graves as an excuse no to do excavations. You lied as i proved you with your own source Lukaszkiewicz who had no problem to dig alleged mass graves during his investigation.

This is insane, almost all peoples from orthodox side have lied here, some repeatedly, the only exception is Nessie.
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:he wrote about details like coins and other unimportant things
Things he knew about.
Absolutely unimportant things which were evidently more important to him than to mention how thick is alleged layer of ash and sand.
Things he knew about. Your desire for him to have done other measurements is irrelevant to what he found worth mentioning. You can call them "unimportant" if you'd like, but your opinion is meaningless
As your opinion. My opinion is at least based on logic, you opinion is based only on "bob, your opinion is meaningless"
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:
Gord wrote:
Bob wrote:but about density or thickness of this alleged layer of ashes/sand? I see nothing.
So you're saying that lack of evidence is evidence of lack? Normally I'd agree with you, but I see a lack of evidence of your lack of evidence.
Lack of evidence = no evidence, you try to tell me that evidence which don´t exist is evidence anyway, this is really false logic.
I told you about evidence, you are the one talking about lack of evidence. Your attempt to call it "alleged" again is -- one more time -- incorrect. You put words in my mouth that I'm the one dependent upon lack of evidence, when that is in fact your position. Is this how you find out your alleged "truth," by putting words in other peoples' mouths?

Your opinions on logic are faulty.
You didn´t tell me about evidence, what you have presented is not evidence you only considered it as an evidence and didn´t explained why and how can you back it up, you didn´t prove it, simple again, word alleged was correct again.

One can only wonder what you consider as faulty logic when your logic is total nonsense. One can even more wonder what you consider as correct logic, let me guess - your logic or logic of orthodox historians, am I right?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by OutOfBreath » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:56 pm

Presenting new fresh-off-the-field-evidence is clearly not "proof" either.

And it is of course we that must contact this person directly to confirm that she did what a press release says she did. Even if we did, we couldn't "prove" that we actually had done so anyway.

A wonder why people don't bend over backwards to present you with proof, isn't it? Seeing how fairly it is treated and thorughly read by you... You won't accept any reasonable evidence, you refuse to see various different pieces of evidence in context, and if we present something, you disingeniously shut it down with a "knowledge is an illusion" relativist approach.

I think it has been asked before, but I try again:
What exactly of the holocaust is it that you don't believe there is evidence for?
a) that millions of jews and others died ?
b) that it was nazi policy to kill them?
c) that camps existed where they were killed?
d) that gas chambers were used?

Please indicate which of these you have a problem with.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Tom Palven » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:22 pm

Pardon me, Dan, for butting in on your list, but I would make it even easier for him.

1. Does he believe that at least hundreds of thousands of non-combatants died in concentration camps?
2. Does he believe that it was Nazi policy to kill them?

Just number 1. alone would imho constitute a Holocaust, and 2. indicates that it wasn't just a random act of God like a tsunami.

The other questions may just provide room for the insertion of red herrings and straw men to confuse the issue, even though I am personally convinced they are true.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:29 pm

OutOfBreath wrote:Presenting new fresh-off-the-field-evidence is clearly not "proof" either.

And it is of course we that must contact this person directly to confirm that she did what a press release says she did. Even if we did, we couldn't "prove" that we actually had done so anyway.
Agree, no report, no proof so far. We must wait.
OutOfBreath wrote:A wonder why people don't bend over backwards to present you with proof, isn't it? Seeing how fairly it is treated and thorughly read by you... You won't accept any reasonable evidence, you refuse to see various different pieces of evidence in context, and if we present something, you disingeniously shut it down with a "knowledge is an illusion" relativist approach.
This isn´t truth, I said why the evidence is not evidence. For example, Zabecki allegedly didn´t see anybody who left camp TII and this is prove of murder there, but fact is that he couldn´t observe the camp as I proved, so what evidence? He lied, he couldn´t see it.

He spoke about 1,200,000 counted peoples in his records which are allegedly in somewhere in Warsawa according to Matthew. But when confronted with the fact, that orthodox sources spoke about 200-870,000 victims at this time, he ignored it, so what evidence? This is evidence of Zabecki´s lie, he didn´t have such a records and Matthew lied too, because if these two person tell me truth, the minimal death tool must be 1,200,000. Or do someone want to tell me, that Gutman, Pressac and the others are deniers who ignore Zabecki´s records? So again, what evidence? Only evidence of false information and lies.

Do you understand to those only two examples why I don´t consider this staff from local debaters as an evidence? You still wonder?


OutOfBreath wrote:I think it has been asked before, but I try again:
What exactly of the holocaust is it that you don't believe there is evidence for?
a) that millions of jews and others died ?
b) that it was nazi policy to kill them?
c) that camps existed where they were killed?
d) that gas chambers were used?

Please indicate which of these you have a problem with.

Peace
Dan
a)I don´t believe it, i didn´t see proof, they aren´t even able to show me how much peoples are missing, and when they don´t know how much peoples are missing, how can they know how much peoples were murdered? Simple I don´t believe it.

b) I didn´t see any proof for this, but I saw plenty of documents which proved policy to move them out, so where is prove of murder? The only argument which they have is only "oh yes, they used code language" so I don´t believe it.

c)This question if wrongly placed. Of course, there existed camps where the peoples were killed, for example for violating rules, they were executed, shot during escape and etc. and etc. this is common practice in every side of the conflict but I don´t believe in plan to murder them to gas them and etc.

d)I don´t believe in nazi gas chambers.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:36 pm

Tom-Palven wrote:Pardon me, Dan, for butting in on your list, but I would make it even easier for him.

1. Does he believe that at least hundreds of thousands of non-combatants died in concentration camps?
2. Does he believe that it was Nazi policy to kill them?

Just number 1. alone would imho constitute a Holocaust, and 2. indicates that it wasn't just a random act of God like a tsunami.

The other questions may just provide room for the insertion of red herrings and straw men to confuse the issue, even though I am personally convinced they are true.
1)Yes, hundreds of thousands of peoples died in the camps as the German records proved.

2)I don´t believe in this.

You aren´t propably able to show me some proof since you ask me instead of adressing the subject of this thread which isn´t about me, but could you be at least honest to answer these qustions?

1)Do you believe that hundreds of thousands non-combatants died in American, British or Soviet camps?

2)What is difference between dying of non-combatants in German, American, British and Soviet camps?

3)Do you believe in American, British or Soviet policy to kill them?