Can you show me some proof/s?

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Nessie
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:48 pm

Nickterry, do you know what condescending means? :roll:
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:37 pm

Nessie wrote:Nickterry, do you know what condescending means? :roll:
If that's the best you can muster in response to my points to you then I guess it's time to hit the ignore button.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:24 pm

If you treat someone in a condescending manner, how do you expect them to react? Then, in a huff, you reach for the ignore button after I, for once respond to you in the manner you have been responding to me :?

Nickterry cannot cope with criticism.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:28 pm

nickterry answered Bob's questions--questions which have no simple, cut-and-dried answers--quite well and quite eloquently. I appreciate his patience and his time spent writing detailed answers.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:39 pm

I disagree, there are numerous questions posted by Bob that have not been answered and nickterry has gone to great lengths explaining why he will not answer them.

Meanwhile, as I look on at the way this (and other denial debates that I have read through decend into the same routine) and then look for myself to try and get answers to Bob's questions I am struggling to find them.

So either nickterry cannot be bothered or (and this is the part that I find disturbing) he cannot and Bob has won the debate.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:19 pm

Sergey Romanov wrote:
.......

In effect, this dialogue looks like:
- I want to eat, bring me food.
- Here's a pizza.
- Um, I don't see a pizza.
- Open the box.
- I want a pizza, not a box. Bring me pasta.
- Sorry, you have a perfectly good pizza in front of you. You won't get anything else.
- What pizza? All I see is a box.

........
This sums up the way this and other debates go. I can understand if you have been dealing with revisionists/deniers for years it is frustrating, but why not just open the box for them?

Why not present them with the pizza and make them look stupid for asking?

The refusal to open the box is making it look more and more like that there is in fact no pizza in the box and the bluff has been called.

A reason why I have reached this point is a thread which was a debate between Matthew and David which turned to the Hitler Order. David kept on asking for Matthew to produce evidence of a Hitler Order, but Matthew would not and kept skirting the issue (arguing correctly that Hitler knew what was going on and the 'Final Solution' had his approval). I kept thinking, why don't you just show David the Hitler Order and then went looking for myself so as to open the pizza box and make David look stupid. I then found out, contrary to all I had been expecting, there is no Hitler Order :?

So how many more empty pizza boxes are there about the Holocaust?
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:26 pm

Nessie wrote:If you treat someone in a condescending manner, how do you expect them to react? Then, in a huff, you reach for the ignore button after I, for once respond to you in the manner you have been responding to me :?
Nickterry cannot cope with criticism.
If you responded to my points in a substantive manner, then I wouldn't be talking about putting you on ignore. Simply throwing out a label isn't a response. You may feel condescended to by my following through the implications of what you wrote, but you have not refuted the points or engaged in any kind of genuine discussion. I can cope very well with criticism, I simply refuse to waste my time on people who think one-liners are a sufficient response to a post containing numerous points, none of which are then answered by the one-liner.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:46 pm

Pyrrho wrote:nickterry answered Bob's questions--questions which have no simple, cut-and-dried answers--quite well and quite eloquently. I appreciate his patience and his time spent writing detailed answers.
Wrong, he only tried to answer my questions 22,23,24 (correct numbers should be 24,25,26) and here you can see how he answered, see my post:
Bob Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:12 pm
He contradicted official narrative and make claims which are not true and even did not answered the subject of the questions, because he refused to answer me my future comments, I still dont know if he was serious. He did not clarify his answers, but make lot of strange claims.

You are wrong, no need to quote books, chapters, answers could be quite simple.

Yeah Yeah, still no answers.
Last edited by Bob on Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:47 pm

Nickterry the reason why I have not responded to your points in a substansive manner is because you have assumed I do not understand the implications of what I have written and even some of the pharses used. But I do and so have nothing to add or even disagree with.

My issue is another matter and it is about being able to answer direct questions with direct answers. For example this question;

"15)Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there."

Your answer so far is yes they were used to kill people, we do not know precisely how many. But you have yet to answer how many gas chambers were there?

As I have written above and the pizza box analogy and my experience about the debate over the Hitler Order, can you see that I have reason to be sceptical over how you deal with Bob's questions?
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:16 pm

Nessie wrote:Nickterry the reason why I have not responded to your points in a substansive manner is because you have assumed I do not understand the implications of what I have written and even some of the pharses used. But I do and so have nothing to add or even disagree with.
yet you then post in such a way that it appears that you do disagree, because you keep defaulting back to 'why can't they respond' when it has been patiently explained to you that it's about "won't respond". And that "won't respond" also includes won't respond here. I even invited Bob to JREF to see how he gets on there.
My issue is another matter and it is about being able to answer direct questions with direct answers. For example this question;

"15)Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there."

Your answer so far is yes they were used to kill people, we do not know precisely how many. But you have yet to answer how many gas chambers were there?

As I have written above and the pizza box analogy and my experience about the debate over the Hitler Order, can you see that I have reason to be sceptical over how you deal with Bob's questions?
Since no one is responding to Bob currently, perhaps you should take note of that fact.

I actually haven't replied to one of Bob's posts since asking him to list exactly what he had read on the subject of the Holocaust. I then placed him on ignore. If he has made a post where he indicates exactly what he has read, rather than handwaving the question, please quote it for me. Until he answers that question fully and honestly, then he is not entitled to receive any further direct answers to his questions. It's not exactly fair debating if one side exempts itself from strictures it places on the other side.

I commented on Majdanek to you, not to Bob. I didn't say I was going to address everything; I was much more interested in why you seem to think that it is necessary that someone should answer Bob's JAQ-off questions. Which you haven't really explained.

You may also have missed the fact that I replied to three of Bob's questions and explained things regarding Auschwitz, referencing three books. No doubt Bob has come back with various but-but-but-buts and apparently has added more questions, since donnageddon says the question count is now up to 31.

So if you're looking for further enlightenment or entertainment, you should probably:

1) persuade Bob to answer the question asked by both Matthew Ellard and myself to list exactly what he has read on the Holocaust written by mainstream historians (full bibliography please)

2) persuade Bob to register at JREF and start over, avoiding what you think were the less than helpful aspects of this thread to date

3) watch the ensuing fireworks at JREF

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:14 pm

This has just become a battle of wills over who wants what out of the discussion. So from my perspective of learning about the Holocaust and what is known and what is not known and what people are not sure about, there is no point in continuing and I shall look elsewhere.

Hopefully not all threads will keep going this way.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:43 pm

This is really insane, I expected a lot but this?

Matthew Ellard - (Bob Jan 12, 2012 1:03 am, page 2) he has over seven thousands comments, but he disappear from this thread even when he commented almost every thread. He repeatedly post alleged proof "Hoefle telegram" but when i place only one question about it, he disappeared, he also made other claims. He said "waste of time" well, over 7000 comments, but simple answers are now waste of time, interesting.

Nick Terry - (Bob Jan 13, 2012 1:12 pm, page 3) produce incredible amount of text why not to answer after he attempted to answer questions 22, 23, 24 and after I reveal the strange claims in his answers which also mostly missed subject of original questions. As I see, he is able to produce long answers, but not about the subject, he has still problem with some rules, he has still problem with "no dodging, no ad hominem, no strawman, provide sources" rules, I think that this isn´t problem for debater and historian, no extra rules, this is basic honest behavior, if he want to tell me that this is something extra for him and Bob´s rules are bad rules...well...no comment.

Sergey Romanov - (Bob Jan 13, 2012 6:55 pm, page 3) he disappear after a few questions and when i quoted some claims from his allegedly scholarly book about his alleged proofs.

Some other peoples disappeared too although they made some claims about alleged proofs, when I asked about these proof, they disappeared and since they admited to have not enough knowlegde about the subject I will not list them, but their ad hominems are worth of noting.

Well, not answering my questions is the best answer which I could get.



Nessie - if you want to know how insane is this, choose some of my questions and try to ask historians, it does not matter if you ask an expert or not, just try it and you will see. If you want I will prepare short list with primitive simple questions, you can try to use it yourself when asking someone who spoke about "proven fact" This is way how you can yourself reveal that there is something very bad about this subject. (I would choose different words, but I can´t write it as I want because of law)

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Poodle » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:57 pm

Ah - I didn't know what the Gish Gallop was. Now I do - and so I now understand (and agree with) what nickterry is saying.

You all have much more patience than do I with holocaust deniers.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bunyip » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:28 pm

he cannot and Bob has won the debate.


Debate? What debate?

Claiming there is debate between sane people and Holocaust deniers is the same as claiming there is a debate between ID/creationism and Evolution. :mrgreen:

PLUS winning a debate does NOT infer being right. Most debates I've seen are no more than intellectual masturbation.Plus, I have yet to actually see a debate on line. IE in real time and properly adjudicated.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by David » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:14 am

nickterry wrote:
Nessie wrote:If you treat someone in a condescending manner, how do you expect them to react? Then, in a huff, you reach for the ignore button after I, for once respond to you in the manner you have been responding to me :?
Nickterry cannot cope with criticism.
If you responded to my points in a substantive manner, then I wouldn't be talking about putting you on ignore. Simply throwing out a label isn't a response. You may feel condescended to by my following through the implications of what you wrote, but you have not refuted the points or engaged in any kind of genuine discussion. I can cope very well with criticism, I simply refuse to waste my time on people who think one-liners are a sufficient response to a post containing numerous points, none of which are then answered by the one-liner.
Nick, Bob asked a very specific question about the
alleged zyklon induction holes in the roof of Krema II
Birkenau.

Having been to look for them, I know that there is one hole chipped through
the concrete roof to provide access to the morgue. Bob asks a
good question.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by David » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:45 am

Nessie wrote:Nickterry the reason why I have not responded to your points in a substansive manner is because you have assumed I do not understand the implications of what I have written and even some of the pharses used. But I do and so have nothing to add or even disagree with.

My issue is another matter and it is about being able to answer direct questions with direct answers. For example this question;

"15)Can you tell me if the gas chambers in Majdanek were used to kill peoples? If so, tell me how many peoples did die in them and how many chambers was or are there."

Your answer so far is yes they were used to kill people, we do not know precisely how many. But you have yet to answer how many gas chambers were there?

As I have written above and the pizza box analogy and my experience about the debate over the Hitler Order, can you see that I have reason to be sceptical over how you deal with Bob's questions?

When the Majdanek death camp was liberated on July 23, 1944, the Soviet Union at first announced to the world that 1.7 million people had been murdered there by the Nazis. By the time that the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal proceedings against the Nazi war criminals began in November 1945, the Soviets had revised this number down to 1.5 million.

Majdanek was once supposed to be the camp where
Slavs were to be murdered, the second most deadly camp after
Auschwitz.
At Nuremberg, the Court listened intently to tales
of 4 busy "gas chambers," vast "shooting pits," and
the processing of humans into fertilizer.
There were "eye witnesses," "confessions," and "documents"
which proved it all.


Now Believers claim that the camp was "unimportant." The
Nuremberg court was only a mere 1,425,000 victims OFF. :roll: :roll:

Bob asks an excellent question!
If the number of murdered victims dropped from 1,500,000
to 78,000 what happens to the tales of
four gas chambers, fertilizer production, shooting pits,
vast graves with 400,000 bodies in it?

An excellent source of information on Majdanek is
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/poland/ma ... nek02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, the "other shoe is waiting to drop" regarding Majdanek.
But, instead of addressing the matter honestly, Believers are
just sweeping the embarrassing "evidence" into the Memory Hole.

You have seen them do this with the embarrassing "evidence"
of Steam Chambers of Death or Diesels of Death at Treblinka.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:08 am

David, that story is even worse, there were allegedly seven gas chambers which were allegedly found by the Polish-Soviet Commission, they summarized them in their report from August 1944 (GARF, 7021-107-9, pp. 229-243.)

Do you want to see some legendary nazi gas chamber? Did you ever see a homicidal gas chamber with unprotected glass window and with the door which opens inward? Here is one from Majdanek.

http://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com ... window.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/indexyy.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not sure but I think they abandoned this gas chamber too, that window was propably too ridiculous.

The "missing victims" were explained by Mr. Terry:
nickterry wrote:"It's true that in 1944, the original estimate for the death toll at Majdanek was 1.5 million, based on finding warehouses full of shoes stolen from the victims of the Reinhard camps.That figure is accurate for all of the Reinhard camps plus Majdanek. Plundered property was transferred from Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka to Lublin and warehoused there."
But when confronted with this:
"“It had been assumed that this [quantity of shoes] came from murdered detainees. We know from documents that have later come to light that there was, at Majdanek, a store which received shoes from other camps.”

Czeslaw Rajca, Majdanek Museum, (Rajca, Problem liczby ofiar w obozie na Majdanku, Zeszyty Majdanka, p. 127)
He ignore it and use excuses why not to answer this

30)What source you used for your claim, that shoes are from allegedly murdered victims of Reinhard camps?

He know why not to answer, because his claim about AR camp´s stolen property isn´t based on evidence, and is contradicted by official narrative about "store which received shoes from other camps" do someone see something about AR camps? Me not, I see only camps, but Mr. Terry try to sell us that these shoes are for sure from allegedly murdered victims, but because he has no proofs, only assumptions, he ingore my question. His claim about shoes of alleged victims and about "convergence of numbers" is refuted easily since the Soviets have found "only" 800,000 pairs of shoes, so no Terry´s "1,500,000" accurate figure, he plainly lied to us, see here for example:
The movie mentions the 800,000 pairs of shoes which were found in the camp when it was liberated, but doesn't point out that Majdanek was a center for processing clothing from the Operation Reinhard camps at Treblinka, Belzec, and Sobibor. There was also a shoe repair shop at Majdanek where the prisoners worked on the boots of the German soldiers as well as the shoes taken from the Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... anek1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He lied or he must reduce his number by half, this will be problem for him I think. The link above make this claim about AR camps too without sources but they at least don´t mention that is from victims.

This is how it works when some believer try to sell this story to "non-educated" peoples, no murdered victims´s property, but store, repair shop from variety of camps, from german soldiers and etc. The maximum for this issue is to say "some shoes could be from deceased prisoners which died in camps because of various reasons" Please note that Mr. Terry "forget" to use allegedly "proven" number of 1,700,000 which is first number of victims for Majdanek:

(Trial of Hermann Vogel, December 2, 1944, (Archive of the State Museum in Majdanek), sygn. XX-1, p. 100.

I clearly wrote this already in this thread (Jan 12, 2012 4:11 pm, on page 2)

Well, and some peoples still wonder why that evil Bob uses such annoying questions.
nickterry wrote:Bob is welcome to come onto JREF and ask people the same questions and see what answers he gets. In a different situation, questions will receive different responses.
Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:41 pm

Nessie wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:
.......

In effect, this dialogue looks like:
- I want to eat, bring me food.
- Here's a pizza.
- Um, I don't see a pizza.
- Open the box.
- I want a pizza, not a box. Bring me pasta.
- Sorry, you have a perfectly good pizza in front of you. You won't get anything else.
- What pizza? All I see is a box.

........
This sums up the way this and other debates go. I can understand if you have been dealing with revisionists/deniers for years it is frustrating, but why not just open the box for them?

Why not present them with the pizza and make them look stupid for asking?

The refusal to open the box is making it look more and more like that there is in fact no pizza in the box and the bluff has been called.
Because then the pizza will be questioned.

Q #33 How do I know that is a real pizza?
Q #34 Do you have evidence it is not plastic?
Q #35 Do you have proof/s of where the pepperoni came from?
Q #36 The menu says it was baked at 700 degrees, Do you have pictures of the thermometer, and documents of how it was calibrated? Provide sources!
Q # 37 You mean your source is in a book? Why can't you just provide a quick proof without hiding behind a cook book?

That is how JAQing off and the Gish Gallup is played. Just keep asking more and more questions, and any unanswered questions (remember there is no end to the questions) will become evidence that there is no pizza. And some on-the-fence will start thinking "Boy, there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about that alleged pizza!"

And then, the JAQ-off has won the "debate".

Classic case in point:

nickterry wrote -
Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.


To which Bob JAQed off -
You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?.

Please, answer, no dodging.
Bob not only mis-characterized, and painted "confusion" were none existed of what nickterry wrote, but then grabbed the opportunity to just throw in another JAQ.

Classic crank stuff, and the best way to deal with it is to learn lessons in how cranks work, rather than feed their con job.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Pyrrho » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:50 pm

Bob wrote:<snip>

Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?
If I may...the JREF Forum administration is assiduous about moderating for ad hominems and the like. Debate conditions there are much more structured. Civility there is the norm rather than the exception and has been for years. That forum also gets much more traffic.
For any forum questions or concerns please e-mail skepticforum@gmail.com or send a PM.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:30 pm

Bob wrote:This is really insane, I expected a lot but this?

Matthew Ellard - (Bob Jan 12, 2012 1:03 am, page 2) he has over seven thousands comments, but he disappear from this thread even when he commented almost every thread. He repeatedly post alleged proof "Hoefle telegram" but when i place only one question about it, he disappeared, he also made other claims. He said "waste of time" well, over 7000 comments, but simple answers are now waste of time, interesting.
I haven't disappeared at all. There is nothing for me to do. You are a holocaust denier who demands a total history of the holocaust, as though this is some sort of teaching facility, as you are personally not satisfied with existing conventional evidence. However you refuse to state what books you have read nor offer any specific piece of evidence you think is wrong. I have simply said "Go away, read some books and come back with specific points" . You have refused to do this. End of story.

Dr Terry has clearly explained why simple answers cannot be given to global questions. There is no point me repeating what he has said.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:42 pm

Donnageddon wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:
In effect, this dialogue looks like:
- I want to eat, bring me food.
- Here's a pizza.
- Um, I don't see a pizza.
- Open the box.
- I want a pizza, not a box. Bring me pasta.
- Sorry, you have a perfectly good pizza in front of you. You won't get anything else.
- What pizza? All I see is a box.

........
This sums up the way this and other debates go. I can understand if you have been dealing with revisionists/deniers for years it is frustrating, but why not just open the box for them?

Why not present them with the pizza and make them look stupid for asking?

The refusal to open the box is making it look more and more like that there is in fact no pizza in the box and the bluff has been called.
Because then the pizza will be questioned.

Q #33 How do I know that is a real pizza?
Q #34 Do you have evidence it is not plastic?
Q #35 Do you have proof/s of where the pepperoni came from?
Q #36 The menu says it was baked at 700 degrees, Do you have pictures of the thermometer, and documents of how it was calibrated? Provide sources!
Q # 37 You mean your source is in a book? Why can't you just provide a quick proof without hiding behind a cook book?

That is how JAQing off and the Gish Gallup is played. Just keep asking more and more questions, and any unanswered questions (remember there is no end to the questions) will become evidence that there is no pizza. And some on-the-fence will start thinking "Boy, there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about that alleged pizza!"

And then, the JAQ-off has won the "debate".

Classic case in point:

nickterry wrote -
Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.


To which Bob JAQed off -
You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?.

Please, answer, no dodging.
Bob not only mis-characterized, and painted "confusion" were none existed of what nickterry wrote, but then grabbed the opportunity to just throw in another JAQ.

Classic crank stuff, and the best way to deal with it is to learn lessons in how cranks work, rather than feed their con job.
Ah, thanks, donnageddon, for showing me that my decision to put Bob on ignore was the right one.

I would draw readers' attention to Bob's classic use of the crank term 'official story'. There is no such thing as 'official history' anyhow; so the term is complete nonsense. But one would have to consider publications of the Auschwitz museum to be 'official' in Bob-world. The historians employed by the Auschwitz museum are not the only ones allowed to write about Auschwitz, so they don't dictate what other historians write, yet other historians agree with the Auschwitz museum historians on many, many, many issues. And this is one of them.

Bob's attempt to strawman the 'official story' falls flat on its face because he doesn't seem to know what has actually been written about Auschwitz, much less that my summary simply repeated the well known facts, as established since the 1940s by multiple investigations, trials and history books.

I even referenced a publication by Helena Kubica, one of the historians of the Auschwitz museum, which deals with the issue of hospitals, in addition to another publication edited by the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, which also confirms the same point, and in Bob-world, surely USHMM must be considered 'official'.

Thus, we see that Bob doesn't understand the 'official story' or know very much about it. If he did understand the 'official story' then he wouldn't ask such silly questions as #22.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:44 pm

I take it Bob didn't answer my request to identify exactly what he has read on the subject of the Holocaust. No?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:48 pm

nickterry wrote:I take it Bob didn't answer my request to identify exactly what he has read on the subject of the Holocaust. No?
It was the first question I asked him after he left his first post. He continues to refuse to do this.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:59 pm

Donnageddon wrote:
Nessie wrote:
Sergey Romanov wrote:
.......

In effect, this dialogue looks like:
- I want to eat, bring me food.
- Here's a pizza.
- Um, I don't see a pizza.
- Open the box.
- I want a pizza, not a box. Bring me pasta.
- Sorry, you have a perfectly good pizza in front of you. You won't get anything else.
- What pizza? All I see is a box.

........
This sums up the way this and other debates go. I can understand if you have been dealing with revisionists/deniers for years it is frustrating, but why not just open the box for them?

Why not present them with the pizza and make them look stupid for asking?

The refusal to open the box is making it look more and more like that there is in fact no pizza in the box and the bluff has been called.
Because then the pizza will be questioned.

Q #33 How do I know that is a real pizza?
Q #34 Do you have evidence it is not plastic?
Q #35 Do you have proof/s of where the pepperoni came from?
Q #36 The menu says it was baked at 700 degrees, Do you have pictures of the thermometer, and documents of how it was calibrated? Provide sources!
Q # 37 You mean your source is in a book? Why can't you just provide a quick proof without hiding behind a cook book?

That is how JAQing off and the Gish Gallup is played. Just keep asking more and more questions, and any unanswered questions (remember there is no end to the questions) will become evidence that there is no pizza. And some on-the-fence will start thinking "Boy, there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about that alleged pizza!"

And then, the JAQ-off has won the "debate".

Classic case in point:

nickterry wrote -
Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.


To which Bob JAQed off -
You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?.

Please, answer, no dodging.
Bob not only mis-characterized, and painted "confusion" were none existed of what nickterry wrote, but then grabbed the opportunity to just throw in another JAQ.

Classic crank stuff, and the best way to deal with it is to learn lessons in how cranks work, rather than feed their con job.
Of course his answer is confused. Jews old, unfit to work, ill, children and etc. wre allegedly gassed on arrival. Nick Terry contradicted this. He also said that "Jews were given chance " which also cotradict extermination theory. You are also off, the question 22) is practically still the same, so Mr. Terry can´t miss subject again, here is comparison:
Bob Jan 13, 2012 12:35 am
22)Jews unable to work were gassed and no Jew was cured in medical buildings? (Auschwitz)
Nick Terry´s answer on this question:
nickterry wrote:Jews were deported en masse to Auschwitz from March 1942, and were selected on arrival in a procedure instituted by July 1942. This practice ended in October 1944, but there were exceptions where some transports were gassed in their entirety and some were registered in their entirety.

Once registered, Jews were meant to work as slave labourers alongside the many non-Jewish prisoners in the camp complex. There were already medical facilities in the camp from the time when Auschwitz was a 'normal' concentration camp, but from 1942 it became the practice to select weakened prisoners, Jews and non-Jews, and kill them, either by lethal injection or by being sent to gas chambers. The length of time a prisoner was permitted to remain in hospital varied, but was generally short. In March 1943, selections of non-Jewish prisoners ended but continued for Jews. Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.

Thus, the number of Jews surviving from 1942 is extremely small, the number from 1943 and 1944 becomes larger, as the practices changed over time and because it was easier to survive if one only had to endure 6 months or 12 months of the camp. On the whole, 1942 was by far the worst year proportionately, but more registered inmates died in 1943 than in any other year, in absolute terms.
Then I replied about his confusing and contradicting answer and formulated question again since Mr. Terry´s answer is wrong and against standard narrative:
Bob wrote:Simple answer that´s all, you wrote long answer but you completely avoided the subject. You for example wrote about prisoners which were in medical facilities, but I asked about Jews. You also said that medical facilities were here from the time when Auschwitz was normal camp which imply that after extermination operation started, the medical facilities were no longer used for Jews. You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?
He had chance to clarify his answer as I challenged him, but he choose to ignore it. I also did not adressed his other claims and waited for him to clarify his answer, as I said he choose to ignore it.

You simply lied Donnageddon as Nick Terry lied about Majdanek, the questions are the same, no "another JAQ." You also edited my whole answer to him which is also dishonest. Instead of plain answers you still spoke about pizza, hm.
Pyrrho wrote:If I may...the JREF Forum administration is assiduous about moderating for ad hominems and the like. Debate conditions there are much more structured. Civility there is the norm rather than the exception and has been for years. That forum also gets much more traffic.
Isn´t problem to say "we can´t answer your questions or we don´t know answers" so is this the case? If yes, no problem, this is also answer, but nobody said it clearly yet so I don´t know. Yeah, ad homines aren´t moderated here.
Matthew Ellard wrote: I haven't disappeared at all. There is nothing for me to do. You are a holocaust denier who demands a total history of the holocaust, as though this is some sort of teaching facility, as you are personally not satisfied with existing conventional evidence. However you refuse to state what books you have read nor offer any specific piece of evidence you think is wrong. I have simply said "Go away, read some books and come back with specific points" . You have refused to do this. End of story.

Dr Terry has clearly explained why simple answers cannot be given to global questions. There is no point me repeating what he has said.
You know better than me this isn´t truth, you have no problem to "educate" David and other members, but when you are confronted with simple questions, you ignore them and use excuses that you will not educate me, but you know very well that I know what I am talking about and why I made these questions.

Again, next excuse, no book length answer needed as I already wrote, you need whole book to show me alleged introduction holes in krema II as I asked in question 33) to prove me gassings? Or do you need whole library in this case?

You posted your alleged proof "Hoffle telegram" almost in every thread
Matthew Ellard wrote:In 1943, the British decrypted a telecommunication from german SS officer Hofle to Adolf Eichmann concerning the number of executions at concentration camps in Operation Reinhard. This includes Treblinka, accumulated up to the period ended 31/Dec/1942. The decrypt was filed back then, as the British did not know what Operation Reinherd was or what the figure meant. It was read again in 2000 when these decrypts were made public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The executions up until 31/Dec/1942 at Treblinka had reached 713,555 people which is very close to the number that was previously put forward by normal historians. This is an internal SS document. It is the "smoking gun". If anyone doubts the death count at Treblinka please direct them to this document first before supplying train movements, confessions and other supporting documents
.


But when confronted with one simple question, what is written in this telegram, you ignored it. No surprise, since there isn´t even one single word about executing of anybody.

Yeah, this is the end Matthew.
nickterry wrote:I take it Bob didn't answer my request to identify exactly what he has read on the subject of the Holocaust. No?
Your question was adressed long time ago.
Bob wrote: Jan 13, 2012 1:12 pm

No, Mr. Terry I will not list all books because first, I say again, I am familiar with story, don´t assume that I am not familiar. Second, you self look to me like the one who are not familiar because you can´t answer. Third, in the case that I would list all books which I have read, you can easily tell me "come back after you read all books of the world to find proofs so I can´t answer you until you read them all" and avoid answering me, so no listing, my last word, just answer and don´t care if I am familiar or not with official story, there is no reason to not quote some proof even when you quote it for someone who didn´t read all books. You are using excuses, if you have read this books, you must know all alleged proofs which are allegedly in them.
If I will list you all books, will you answer my questions? Yes or No?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by nickterry » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:03 pm

Pyrrho wrote:
Bob wrote:<snip>

Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?
If I may...the JREF Forum administration is assiduous about moderating for ad hominems and the like. Debate conditions there are much more structured. Civility there is the norm rather than the exception and has been for years. That forum also gets much more traffic.
This, plus I simply visit JREF more often than I visit this forum.

Bob, if you're thinking of simply rounding up your big list of Gish Gallop questions and reposting them at JREF, don't bother. You will be ridiculed at JREF, even with the more stringent moderation, if you try. That goes for the big handwave questions you started with as much as for the little ones. Come along and present your argument, make assertions which you are willing to defend.

JAQing off will be spotted for what it is, since you may not realise that it's exactly what other people with fringe beliefs do. And like it or not, yours is a fringe belief. If you're going to ask questions, expect to be asked questions back. You shouldn't even dream of trying to immunise yourself from questions since there are a dozen imbeciles who have tied that in the 9/11 conspiracies forum and it really, really annoys JREFers.

One other reason to recommend JREF is that there are three deniers there, whereas you only have one other denier here. OK, it's true that two of the JREF deniers are completely braindead, and the other one is a half-wit, but that only underscores the relevance of you shifting playing field. Your potential sidekick here, David, is... well I will just endorse Matthew Ellard's frequent comments about David and leave it at that.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:09 pm

Bob wrote:You know better than me this isn´t truth, you have no problem to "educate" David and other members, but when you are confronted with simple questions, you ignore them and use excuses that you will not educate me, but you know very well that I know what I am talking about and why I made these questions.
Wrong David fabricates fake dates on specific events that can be dealt with in one blow. For example.....
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p255473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You want a complete detailed history of all the evidence but won't say what you have already read and what problems you have with conventional evidence.

Bob wrote:You posted your alleged proof "Hoffle telegram" almost in every thread
That's right. In context of stating what was the minimum number of people who were sent to Treblinka. Are you getting it now?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:14 pm

nickterry wrote:
Pyrrho wrote:
Bob wrote:<snip>

Interesting, you are here and can´t answer, but I can get answer when I will move to another forum? What different situation you are talking about?
If I may...the JREF Forum administration is assiduous about moderating for ad hominems and the like. Debate conditions there are much more structured. Civility there is the norm rather than the exception and has been for years. That forum also gets much more traffic.
This, plus I simply visit JREF more often than I visit this forum.

Bob, if you're thinking of simply rounding up your big list of Gish Gallop questions and reposting them at JREF, don't bother. You will be ridiculed at JREF, even with the more stringent moderation, if you try. That goes for the big handwave questions you started with as much as for the little ones. Come along and present your argument, make assertions which you are willing to defend.

JAQing off will be spotted for what it is, since you may not realise that it's exactly what other people with fringe beliefs do. And like it or not, yours is a fringe belief. If you're going to ask questions, expect to be asked questions back. You shouldn't even dream of trying to immunise yourself from questions since there are a dozen imbeciles who have tied that in the 9/11 conspiracies forum and it really, really annoys JREFers.

One other reason to recommend JREF is that there are three deniers there, whereas you only have one other denier here. OK, it's true that two of the JREF deniers are completely braindead, and the other one is a half-wit, but that only underscores the relevance of you shifting playing field. Your potential sidekick here, David, is... well I will just endorse Matthew Ellard's frequent comments about David and leave it at that.
But now you are here, right now you are here, so you can answer here, If I will start the same thread in other forum what is the difference? I don´t see it.

I don´t care how many "deniers" are here or there, don´t know how this is relevant this isn´t some battle of teams or some kind of match, but discussion about Holocaust relevant themes.

No sidekick, Matthew clearly have lot of time to educate others so he use excuse as a reason to not adress my question/s and isn´t able to answer even one question about his Hoffle telegram? Be honest, you know as good as I know why he don´t want to adress even this question about telegram.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:17 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote:You know better than me this isn´t truth, you have no problem to "educate" David and other members, but when you are confronted with simple questions, you ignore them and use excuses that you will not educate me, but you know very well that I know what I am talking about and why I made these questions.
Wrong David fabricates fake dates on specific events that can be dealt with in one blow. For example.....
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p255473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You want a complete detailed history of all the evidence but won't say what you have already read and what problems you have with conventional evidence.

Bob wrote:You posted your alleged proof "Hoffle telegram" almost in every thread
That's right. In context of stating what was the minimum number of people who were sent to Treblinka. Are you getting it now?
I don´t care what is subject of adressing the David´s comments, important thing is that you have clearly no problem to adress him, but in my case "you have no time" interesting.

Again wrong, no minimum number of victims, but minimum number of deported peoples.

Matthew, do you admit that you lied in your "blue" quote about Hofle telegram and that there is no mention of executions or about murdering of anybody?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:26 pm

Bob wrote: Of course his answer is confused. Jews old, unfit to work, ill, children and etc. wre allegedly gassed on arrival. Nick Terry contradicted this. He also said that "Jews were given chance " which also cotradict extermination theory.
Note what nickterry actually wrote ("said" in Bob world)
able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness
due to the
exigiencies of the war economy
Subtle, but important difference between "able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness" and Bob's rephrasing "Jews were given chance "

Subtlety is how the world is best described, but in the hands of a crank it is just a tool for spreading FUD.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:36 pm

Donnageddon wrote:
Bob wrote: Of course his answer is confused. Jews old, unfit to work, ill, children and etc. wre allegedly gassed on arrival. Nick Terry contradicted this. He also said that "Jews were given chance " which also cotradict extermination theory.
Note what nickterry actually wrote ("said" in Bob world)
able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness
due to the
exigiencies of the war economy
Subtle, but important difference between "able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness" and Bob's rephrasing "Jews were given chance "

Subtlety is how the world is best described, but in the hands of a crank it is just a tool for spreading FUD.
Please, educate yourself, standard narrative don´t speak about "giving chance" to Jews during the extermination operation, because there is no need to give chance to recovery to someone who is determined to be exterminated.

If you don´t agree, can you provide me with source which speaks about stoping extermination process to give chance to recovery ill Jews due to "exigiencies" of war?

Can you tell me why they gave this alleged chance to Jews?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:53 pm

Bob wrote:You posted your alleged proof "Hoffle telegram" almost in every thread
That's right. In context of stating what was the minimum number of people who were sent to Treblinka. Are you getting it now? ['color]
Bob wrote:I don´t care what is subject of adressing the David´s comments,
important thing is that you have clearly no problem to adress him, but in my case "you have no time" interesting.
That's right. I can destroy David's lies in one post on the facts. You already knew that as I have told you three times. However you are not prepared to offer facts or even say what conventional evidence you don't agree with but ask me to spends days presenting all the evidence from scratch. To be frank I don't really care if you are uneducated or not. I am on a skeptical forum making skeptical comments about false facts presented to me. You haven't presented anything.
Bob wrote: Matthew, do you admit that you lied in your "blue" quote about Hofle telegram and that there is no mention of executions or about murdering of anybody?
I never said it did, you are lying and have made a poor attempt with this claim. I said..........
So you have read various books on the holocaust and have not seen any proof one way or the other. Good for you. Go do some further research. If you think the Hofle Telegram is forged, Stangl is lying and Justice Łukaszkiewicz was part of a jewish/communist conspiracy, then simply say so

The Hofle Telegram concerns the number of people sent to Treblinka. "David" said Treblinka II had 5,000 people working at it and was a soviet munitions reprocessing centre, which the Hofle telegram indicated was complete crap based on numbers.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:58 pm

I'm sorry, Bob, but I made it clear early on that I have zero interest in debating with a Holocaust Denier crank. I am more interested in examining the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint.

But, nice try in attempting to get me into your "show me proof/s, answer my endless questions" cycle of JAQ-offery. Very amusing.
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:35 am

Donnageddon wrote:I'm sorry, Bob, but I made it clear early on that I have zero interest in debating with a Holocaust Denier crank. I am more interested in examining the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint.

But, nice try in attempting to get me into your "show me proof/s, answer my endless questions" cycle of JAQ-offery. Very amusing.
I see, but I have no problem to prove that your examination is false, which I did.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Ellard wrote:That's right. In context of stating what was the minimum number of people who were sent to Treblinka. Are you getting it now?
Mr. Ellard, you lie again, before you said:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
Jul 29, 2010 5:11 am
In 1943, the British decrypted a telecommunication from german SS officer Hofle to Adolf Eichmann concerning the number of executions at concentration camps in Operation Reinhard.

The executions up until 31/Dec/1942 at Treblinka had reached 713,555 people(...)

Aug 01, 2010 2:36 am
Do you deny that over 700,000 were executed at Treblinka after reading the internal Nazi documents that state numbers(...)

Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:07 am
and this is why the Hofle Telegram ( confirming executions at Treblinka) was missed in 1943.

Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:13 am
Do you deny "The Hofle Telegram" and supporting evidence that 713,555 Jews had been executed in Treblinka II extermination camp by 30th December 1942?
So what is correct? First quote or second quote? Telegram is only about number od deported or about number of executed, Hofle telegram confirms executions? You comitted lie, you only need to choose.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I never said it did, you are lying and have made a poor attempt with this claim.
Really?
Matthew Ellard wrote:That's right. In context of stating what was the minimum number of people who were sent to Treblinka. Are you getting it now?
You edited out everything about "executions" from your newest quote so you admit that content of telegeram is only about number of deported. Or do you want to tell me again that there is something about executions in Hofle Telegram?

I don´t care what David said, I care about what you said.
Matthew Ellard wrote:I am on a skeptical forum making skeptical comments about false facts presented to me. You haven't presented anything. [/color]
I did not come to present some facts since I even can´t because of laws in my country, see my opening post if you still don´t know what is subject of this thread, I come here to see alleged facts about Holocaust to see if you can prove it since the burden of proof is on accusers, simple.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:49 am

Bob wrote:
Donnageddon wrote:I'm sorry, Bob, but I made it clear early on that I have zero interest in debating with a Holocaust Denier crank. I am more interested in examining the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint.

But, nice try in attempting to get me into your "show me proof/s, answer my endless questions" cycle of JAQ-offery. Very amusing.
I see, but I have no problem to prove that your examination is false, which I did.
Gosh, Bob, I must have missed that. Where did you prove that my "examination of the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint" is false?

Answer the question, no dodging please.*

*He he, this is kinda fun!
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:29 am

Bob wrote: So what is correct? First quote or second quote? Telegram is only about number od deported or about number of executed, Hofle telegram confirms executions? You comitted lie, you only need to choose.
Tsk tsk tsk....and here you start out of context quoting. In a discussion of the Polish investigation of Treblinka II which found the human ash, and in the absence of any evidence of Jews leaving Treblinka II conventional historians can conclude from the Hofle telegram that a minimum of 713,555 people were executed.......but you are editing this other evidence out......as you are a holocaust denier.....Tsk tsk tsk.
Bob wrote: I did not come to present some facts......
Obviously! How can you cherry pick if you lay out your position first in full.
Bob wrote:......since I even can´t because of laws in my country,........
Crap....are *they* going to arrest some forum guy called "Bob" who can't even state what evidence he doesn't understand? Why don't you set out the evidence you deny in detail......can you get arrested for that?
Bob wrote:......see my opening post if you still don´t know what is subject of this thread, I come here to see alleged facts about Holocaust to see if you can prove it since the burden of proof is on accusers, simple.
Crap. I'm defending existing conventional history by historians on a skeptic forum. You can't even say what the specific evidence you don't like is. If you read books and you still can't work out your problem that's your issue and not mine.

If you didn't understand quantum mechanics do you ask a skeptic forum for a complete science course or study quantum mechanics yourself at a university with qualified scientists?

You already have cherry picked out of context quotes which indicates how you are going to behave here. You are just another holocaust denier who refuses to read books and can't string a detailed hypothesis or claim together. Where do you think the 713,555 people in the Hofle telegram went? You won't say will you?

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:29 am

Donnageddon wrote:
Bob wrote:
Donnageddon wrote:I'm sorry, Bob, but I made it clear early on that I have zero interest in debating with a Holocaust Denier crank. I am more interested in examining the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint.

But, nice try in attempting to get me into your "show me proof/s, answer my endless questions" cycle of JAQ-offery. Very amusing.
I see, but I have no problem to prove that your examination is false, which I did.
Gosh, Bob, I must have missed that. Where did you prove that my "examination of the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint" is false?

Answer the question, no dodging please.*

*He he, this is kinda fun!
No problem, you used Mr. Terry´s claim...:
nickterry wrote:Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.
To prove that I was wrong.

According to this Mr. Terry´s claim the ill unfit Jews were allegedly spared and they were given chance in late 1943 because of "the exigiencies of the war economy"

-This contradict official narrative about alleged plan to physically exterminate Jews.

-Mr. Terry tried to indicate that Jews were not cured in medical facilities of Auschwitz before "late 1943" and were cured because of "exigiencies of the war economy." and because he propably know about curing of Jews in medical facilities which contradict strongly policy to exterminate them, he thus he invented alleged "giving chance" policy in late 1943 to partly solve this problem. But according to Henryk Tauber, they even allegedly divided gas chamber to two smaller to gass smaller transports and they allegedly did this at the end of 1943:
“At the end of 1943 the gas chamber was divided into two [parts] by a brick wall so as to make it suitable for the gassing of smaller transports. In this wall there was a door similar to the one [leading] from the corridor to the whole chamber. The smaller transports were gassed in the rear chamber, located farthest away from the corridor.”

Tauber´s declaration in Polish deposition, p. 130
so they clearly didn´t need not even ill Jews because of war economy since they even prepared gas chamber to gass even small transports and they didn´t want to waste killing sources but they wanted to waste even more expensive source to recover poor ill Jews?. Terry´s claim is thus wrong and he even didn´t provide me with source for this claim, he didn´t mention no documentation, no proof. In Sobibor:
On 23 November 1943 Wagner announced the execution of the last remaining thirty Jews

http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/sobibor.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to this orthodox source, they still gassed able bodied Jews even in November 1943 so why to "giving chance" and waste sources to recovery ill unfit Jews in Auschwitz when they still gassed Jews in Sobibor. Why didn´t they transport them to Auschwitz? Why did they gassed Jews in Treblinka still in August 1943?

- Mr. Terry tried to tell us that the dumb Germans later realized that they have not enough Jews able to work in late 1943 and that they even "gived chance" to ill and unfit Jews in Auschwitz who were able to recover according to Mr. Terry.

-Mr. Terry wanted to tell us that Germans allegedly exterminated too much able to work Jews that they were forced to give chance to recover ill unfit Jews in medical facilities in Auschwitz.

-Mr. Terry tried to tell us that Germans needed some Jews and so urgently that they were even forced to stop extermination of ill Jews which were able to recover and placed them in medical facilities to give them chance to recover and to solve problem with the lack of fit Jews.

-and finally, Mr. Terry contradict his own claim, because he wrote in "Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened." this only means that Jews were already in hospital or medical facilities before late 1943 and before the alleged "exigiencies of the war economy" became serious, so these "exigiencies" could not be clearly the reason why to cure ill Jews in hospital because he clearly wrote, that in late 1943, the period "for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened" = the Jews were already cured in hospitals but with shorter periods. Mr. Terry contradicted his own claim and official narrative, again and totally, this is the end.

These few simple orthodox "facts" refute Mr. Terry´s claim about "giving chance" policy to ill Jews in late 1943. This Mr.Terry´s claim is full of absurdities and logical fallacies as I have pointed out and easily refute his claim. Also, Mr. Terry refuted his claim himself.

And because you (Donnageddon) have used this claim to examine my alleged wrong response, you are wrong in your examination, my words were correct and my questions and challenge to Mr. Terry to clarify his answer was correct since he wrote total contradict nonsense even without source. I know very well why I placed this question 22) about Jews in medical facilities during alleged extermination operation since this is contradictionary to official narrative and means big problem for historians since why to cure Jews and why to waste expensive sources when they wanted to physically exterminate them?

Any questions? Or do you want to still tell me that I was wrong in my reaction to Mr. Terry´s response on my question 22)?

No dodging, you are correct, good rule.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Bob wrote: So what is correct? First quote or second quote? Telegram is only about number od deported or about number of executed, Hofle telegram confirms executions? You comitted lie, you only need to choose.
Tsk tsk tsk....and here you start out of context quoting. In a discussion of the Polish investigation of Treblinka II which found the human ash, and in the absence of any evidence of Jews leaving Treblinka II conventional historians can conclude from the Hofle telegram that a minimum of 713,555 people were executed.......but you are editing this other evidence out......as you are a holocaust denier.....Tsk tsk tsk.
Bob wrote: I did not come to present some facts......
Obviously! How can you cherry pick if you lay out your position first in full.
Bob wrote:......since I even can´t because of laws in my country,........
Crap....are *they* going to arrest some forum guy called "Bob" who can't even state what evidence he doesn't understand? Why don't you set out the evidence you deny in detail......can you get arrested for that?
Bob wrote:......see my opening post if you still don´t know what is subject of this thread, I come here to see alleged facts about Holocaust to see if you can prove it since the burden of proof is on accusers, simple.
Crap. I'm defending existing conventional history by historians on a skeptic forum. You can't even say what the specific evidence you don't like is. If you read books and you still can't work out your problem that's your issue and not mine.

If you didn't understand quantum mechanics do you ask a skeptic forum for a complete science course or study quantum mechanics yourself at a university with qualified scientists?

You already have cherry picked out of context quotes which indicates how you are going to behave here. You are just another holocaust denier who refuses to read books and can't string a detailed hypothesis or claim together. Where do you think the 713,555 people in the Hofle telegram went? You won't say will you?
Nothing out of context, you changed your arguemntation, you edited out alleged "confirmed executions" alleged "number of exectued" peoples from your newest claim about Hofle telegram.

So again, this Hofle telegram is proof of what? Only of number of deported peoples or is this proof of executions as you stated before for several times?
Obviously! How can you cherry pick if you lay out your position first in full.
Of course i could present facts, but I wanted to see facts of accusator, burden of proof is on you.
Crap....are *they* going to arrest some forum guy called "Bob" who can't even state what evidence he doesn't understand? Why don't you set out the evidence you deny in detail......can you get arrested for that?
How? Easily, I can´t start to demonstrate anything which refute official narrative, in my country this is "common knowledge" and we have law against doubts. If my identity will be somehow exposed, I could be easily prosecuted, you know nothing about it since in your country there is propably everything ok. This is serious problem since some peoples (I will not mention) already exposed openly alleged identity of some "deniers". You just don´t know what are you talking about, you are propably in US with mighty first amendment, am I right?
Crap. I'm defending existing conventional history by historians on a skeptic forum. You can't even say what the specific evidence you don't like is. If you read books and you still can't work out your problem that's your issue and not mine.
I already speficfied what i don´t like about your evidence, my questions about your alleged evidence are clear. There is not even one proof. Of course, this is not your issue, your issue is that you can´t prove alleged most proven fact in which you clearly believe and even attack other users for "denying".
If you didn't understand quantum mechanics do you ask a skeptic forum for a complete science course or study quantum mechanics yourself at a university with qualified scientists?
Hm, you compare this to question, for example 33)Can you show me introduction holes in krema II?
Are you serious?
You already have cherry picked out of context quotes which indicates how you are going to behave here. You are just another holocaust denier who refuses to read books and can't string a detailed hypothesis or claim together. Where do you think the 713,555 people in the Hofle telegram went? You won't say will you?
You seems to be completely demolished since you bring this most popular logical fallacy "if they were not gassed, where are they?" I don´t know where are those 713,555 from Hofle telegram, there are many possibilities which need to access everything in archives to find what happened with them, they could be in many places, their destiny will maybe stay unknown, but assumption that someone whose destiny is not known are for sure the victim of nazi gas chambers are absurd and complete fallacy.

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Donnageddon
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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Donnageddon » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:51 am

Bob wrote:
Donnageddon wrote:
Bob wrote:
Donnageddon wrote:I'm sorry, Bob, but I made it clear early on that I have zero interest in debating with a Holocaust Denier crank. I am more interested in examining the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint.

But, nice try in attempting to get me into your "show me proof/s, answer my endless questions" cycle of JAQ-offery. Very amusing.
I see, but I have no problem to prove that your examination is false, which I did.
Gosh, Bob, I must have missed that. Where did you prove that my "examination of the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint" is false?

Answer the question, no dodging please.*

*He he, this is kinda fun!
No problem, you used Mr. Terry´s claim...:
nickterry wrote:Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.
To prove that I was wrong.
I did nothing of the sort. I merely demonstrated that you mis-characterized nickterry's statements, improperly quoted them and then how you used your incorrect rephrasing as a further tool in your circus of Gish Galloping and JAQing off.

You haven't responded to my question, and you really need to. Let me repost it so you can answer it simply.

1) Where did you prove that my "examination of the methods you are using to spread your tainted viewpoint" is false? Provide proof/s of your proving it. I need sources.

and additional questions for you

2) Why do you employ JAQing off techniques and Gish Gallop if you really are honestly interested in finding out the truth?
No dodging, you are correct, good rule.
3) Then why don't you follow it? Answer my questions, not the questions you want to answer. Simple.
My name is not Donna.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:14 am

Bob wrote:Nothing out of context, you changed your arguemntation, you edited out alleged "confirmed executions" alleged "number of exectued" peoples from your newest claim about Hofle telegram.
Bob wrote:He repeatedly post alleged proof "Hoefle telegram" but when i place only one question about it, he disappeared
Tsk tsk tsk....You are quite a denier aren't you? You agree I have mentioned the Hofle telegram is thousands of posts. I gave you the context of those posts, 713,555 people are sent to Treblinka, none leave and the Polish investigation finds human ash at Treblinka.....but you avoid saying what you theory is to this evidence. Are you claiming Treblinka was a transit camp? Are you claiming Lukaszkiewicz didn't find human ash? Are you saying the Hofle Telegram is forged. Do you have any alternative theory or are you avoiding evidence and refusing to read books?
Bob wrote: I can´t start to demonstrate anything which refute official narrative, in my country this is "common knowledge" and we have law against doubts. If my identity will be somehow exposed......
Crap. Who is going to expose you? You are called "Bob" which is not your real name. Which exact law are you referring to and show me the specific legislation that you would be prosecuted under if you stated your hypothesis in detail in a debate on a forum?
Bob wrote: You just don´t know what are you talking about, you are propably in US with mighty first amendment, am I right?
No. I'm in Australia which has villification laws that can close down websites ie Richard Toben.
Bob wrote:I already speficfied what i don´t like about your evidence, my questions about your alleged evidence are clear. There is not even one proof.
I don't care what you think. You are a holocaust denier who can't say what his problem with existing conventional evidence is. Next week you will deny nuclear weapons because no one on a skeptic forum will explain to you how they work.

Bob wrote: You seems to be completely demolished since you bring this most popular logical fallacy "if they were not gassed, where are they?" I don´t know where are those 713,555 from Hofle telegram, there are many possibilities which need to access everything in archives to find what happened with them, they could be in many places, their destiny will maybe stay unknown, but assumption that someone whose destiny is not known are for sure the victim of nazi gas chambers are absurd and complete fallacy.
Crap. The Station master, Zabecki, alrerady confirmed that no trains with people left Treblinka II. Do some basic research before posting again as you seem to have huge gaps in your limited reading.

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Re: Can you show me some proof/s?

Post by Bob » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:24 am

Donnageddon wrote: That is how JAQing off and the Gish Gallup is played. Just keep asking more and more questions, and any unanswered questions (remember there is no end to the questions) will become evidence that there is no pizza. And some on-the-fence will start thinking "Boy, there seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about that alleged pizza!"

And then, the JAQ-off has won the "debate".

Classic case in point:

nickterry wrote -
Later in 1943, the exigiencies of the war economy meant that the time permitted for Jewish prisoners to remain in hospital was lengthened. In other words, obviously unfit Jews were killed on arrival, able-bodied Jews were selected, registered and given some chance to recover from illness.


To which Bob JAQed off -
You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?.

Please, answer, no dodging.
Bob not only mis-characterized, and painted "confusion" were none existed of what nickterry wrote, but then grabbed the opportunity to just throw in another JAQ.

Classic crank stuff, and the best way to deal with it is to learn lessons in how cranks work, rather than feed their con job.
Donnageddon 1)As I have proved in my previous answer to your qestion (Jan 16, 2012 3:29 am), the confusion and contradicts are clearly presented in Mr. Terry´s response which you used to show that I painted confusion which isn´t in his response.

You also said, that then I have used opportunity to throw another JAQ, but as I proved again, the question which I placed was the same as before, here is comparison:

Original question to which Mr. Terry replied:
22)Jews unable to work were gassed and no Jew was cured in medical buildings? (Auschwitz)

New tweaked question for Terry so he can clarify his confused and etc. answer:
22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?

Qestions are the same and tweaked for Mr. Terry so he can clarify his proved confusing and contradicting answer, I clearly did not throw another JAQ.

You was wrong, confusion is there, lot of confusion, and you are wrong again, I used practically the same question again, I did nto throw another. Sources? Sources are here, quoted, emphasis added.

Sorry Donnageddon, but you can´t dodge, you was clearly cheated by Mr. Terry´s answer because you assumed that his answer is correct and that there is no confusion and etc. and that I was thus wrong this prove that you really don´t have knowledge about this subject.

I also proved that you are dishonest and edited my whole answer to him, because my answer wasn´t this:
You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?.

Please, answer, no dodging.
But my answer was this:
Simple answer that´s all, you wrote long answer but you completely avoided the subject. You for example wrote about prisoners which were in medical facilities, but I asked about Jews. You also said that medical facilities were here from the time when Auschwitz was normal camp which imply that after extermination operation started, the medical facilities were no longer used for Jews. You also wrote, that ill Jews were recovered for some strange reason of "giving the chance" which contradict official story of "unfit, ill were gassed" and this also violate logic of extermination plan. Your answer is confusing.

Mr. Terry, because you completely missed the subject of the question and your answer is confusing I will by more accurate to avoid any further problems:

22)The Jews which were ill, wounded, old and etc. and unable to work were cured/treated in medical buildings in Auschwitz or not?
So you are the one who wrongly quoted, you are the one who mis-characterized what i said.

Donnageddon 2) - No "JAQing off techniques and Gish Gallop" but simple basic questions

Donnageddon 3) I did not dodge anything, on the contrary you want to dodge that you were clearly wrong in your examination, my method was correct as I proved, no bad quoting, no mis-characterising.