David Can you confirm your position?

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David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:13 am

David, you are a holocaust denier. It is my opinion that you are reluctant to clearly state your position on certain specific events.

1) Do you deny Action Renhardt and the mass execution of Jews in Poland?
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/reinhardintro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) Do you deny "The Hofle Telegram" and supporting evidence that 713,555 Jews had been executed in Treblinka II extermination camp by 30th December 1942?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) Do you deny "Sonder Aktion 1005" and the German's Government's order to hide evidence of the mass executions of Jews in Poland?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) Do you deny the existence of gas chambers in any concentration camp in Poland?

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... linka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Free bump to see if David dares to answer :D
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:04 pm

Nessie wrote:Free bump to see if David dares to answer :D
Another bump to remind David to respond.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:09 pm

bump, awaiting davids answer....

david. no offence but ive got to say. im no expert in this field but when i read up on the things that both you and matthew offer, it appears that matthew is backed by fact and you appear to be twisting and turning things to suit. also your refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes...

thanks

rich

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:07 pm

Daaaaaaavvviiiid, coooeeeee!!!
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Bunyip » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:08 am

Nessie wrote:Daaaaaaavvviiiid, coooeeeee!!!


Bump ;Oi, Dunderklumpen


0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Nessie;

"Cooooeeee?" My goodness,I haven't heard anyone actually use that since I was 8 and living in Kapunda.(country South Australia,which in 1955 was like living on the dark side of the moon) :mrgreen:
'
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:58 am

David just brings out the Britishness in me! Jolly good!!!
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:13 am

RICH-ENGLAND wrote:bump, awaiting davids answer....

david. no offence but ive got to say. im no expert in this field but when i read up on the things that both you and matthew offer, it appears that matthew is backed by fact and you appear to be twisting and turning things to suit. also your refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes...

thanks

rich
Of course a "non-Believer's view" seems strange to you.
Take your idea that my "refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes..."

For you to even think that I have time over Christmas to screw around with a
string of stupid ideas "speaks volumes" ... as in you being a ditz with nothing
intelligent to add to the discussion.

But in the spirit of the season I am here to try and help lift you guys up
from Belief in the Ugly Myth.


We can start with an amazing Believer claim;
the idea that millions of bodies just "disappeared" without a trace aka. The "1005 Tale"

This tale refers to bodies that were burned in outdoor
pyres in Poland, the Ukraine, and other parts of the Soviet Union.

Like everything related to Belief, the figures are very wonky.
Originally, 4,000,000 bodies were supposed to have totally
"disappeared" at the concentration camps of Majdanek and Auschwitz
in a process described as "disappearing up the chimney," ie. cremation
in ovens.

Because of this Holocaust Belief as been called "Santa times 4,000,000."


Well that has changed by a mere 3,000,000 with the collapse of the
Majdanek and Auschwitz figures. So now you guys only believe
1,000,000 bodies "disappeared up the chimney."

Leaving aside the validity of the "disappearing up the chimney" claim, you Believers claim that about 5,000,000 bodies were totally destroyed
by outdoor cremation...by what is known to Believers as the
Einsatzkommando 1005,

"AKTION 1005 — EFFACING THE MURDER OF MILLIONS

The first stage was carried out in the death camps in Poland, and in Auschwitz until the crematona there became operational In the second stage, from the middle of 1943, the opening of the mass graves was begun in a systematic fashion, starting in the Soviet Union and continuing in Poland and Yugoslavia To carry out this task, units of Einsatzkommando 1005 were established in various geographical locations.

http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/2/157.abstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simply put, you Believers claim that this group dug up and burned
millions of bodies. For the most part no traces of any kind were left.

So, we can stop here for a minute while you think about the traces that
huge pit bonfires would leave and the logistics of burning 5,000,000 bodies.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by OutOfBreath » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:36 am

you didn't answer the question, but copy/pasted some tired old rants instead, I noticed. I must remind myself not to "display this post" again.
What is perceived as real becomes real in its consequences.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:05 am

David wrote:Take your idea that my "refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes..."
It does. David. You are a holocaust denier. Please answer the questions with a yes or a no.

1) Do you deny Action Renhardt and the mass execution of Jews in Poland?
http://www.deathcamps.org/reinhard/reinhardintro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) Do you deny "The Hofle Telegram" and supporting evidence that 713,555 Jews had been executed in Treblinka II extermination camp by 30th December 1942?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) Do you deny "Sonder Aktion 1005" and the German's Government's order to hide evidence of the mass executions of Jews in Poland?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

4) Do you deny the existence of gas chambers in any concentration camp in Poland?

http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... linka.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Teleosaurus » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:23 pm

I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Bunyip » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:42 am

Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.

I met a few too,when I was a lot younger,they told me the same thing. HOWEVER,those stories are anecdotal evidence, NOT proof,although I believe them completely.

WHY?

I believe the Holocaust occurred and the claims of 11 million murdered (6 million of whom were Jews) are true. I believe this because WW2 generally,and the Holocaust specifically are probably the most thoroughly,accurately recorded events in human history. Am I 1000% I CERTAIN? No,of course not ,I'm a skeptic,I'm not 100% certain of anything.However,in this instance I think the probability is so close to 100% that it's a non issue.

The irony is that hateful and idiotic Holocaust deniers such as David Irwin and his charming namesake here actually HELP keep the issue alive.Their blatant lies and puerile sophistry are simply swatted away by their intellectually honest. and generally smarter opponents.
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:39 am

Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.
Revisionists don't deny that 10's of thousands of people died at
the Auschwitz/Birkenau complex. We say that British and
Soviet propagandists took real tragedies and exaggerated the stories
for political purposes. For example, all scholars now agree
that the Nuremberg Tribunal exaggerated the death toll of Auschwitz
by 1.5 to 3 Million victims with the Soviets on the high side.
The Majdanek toll was exaggerated by 20 times, over 1,250,000 million extra deaths. See Majdanek Victims Enumerated. Changes in the history textbooks?
http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?opt ... 4&Itemid=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The article does not mention the Nuremberg figures but starts
with Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz's figure of 360,000 only a 250,000 dead exaggeration.

And the Brits and Soviets paraded totally made up tales of human soap production,
human fertilizer factories and a shrunken head through the Nuremberg Tribunal.

The point is not to justify or minimize the crimes of the National
Socialists but to be aware that our own government and courts distort information
in any political situation. Truth is the first casualty of war.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:51 am

Bunyip wrote:
Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.

I met a few too,when I was a lot younger,they told me the same thing. HOWEVER,those stories are anecdotal evidence, NOT proof,although I believe them completely.

WHY?

I believe the Holocaust occurred and the claims of 11 million murdered (6 million of whom were Jews) are true. I believe this because WW2 generally,and the Holocaust specifically are probably the most thoroughly,accurately recorded events in human history. Am I 1000% I CERTAIN? No,of course not ,I'm a skeptic,I'm not 100% certain of anything.However,in this instance I think the probability is so close to 100% that it's a non issue.

The irony is that hateful and idiotic Holocaust deniers such as David Irwin and his charming namesake here actually HELP keep the issue alive.Their blatant lies and puerile sophistry are simply swatted away by their intellectually honest. and generally smarter opponents.
The irony of a Believer claiming that "the Holocaust specifically are probably the most thoroughly,accurately recorded events in human history" is pretty funny.
Is that why the Nuremberg Tribunal threw in an extra 1 or 2 million dead at
Auschwitz and an extra 1,250,000 dead at Majdanek?

As for "hateful Holocaust deniers" you have it bassackwards.
Believers are the ones promoting sick twisted tales of baby bonfires and
human soap factories. I just don't believe your crazy sh*t.

What really amazing me is how nasty you guys get when I point out indisputable
facts like the Majdanek figures having been exaggerated by 1,250,000 deaths.

I am bringing you good news that a million less people died.
You should be happy. Instead you get furious.

So, please tell us "hateful and idiotic Holocaust deniers" why you want there to
have been more people killed at Majdanek rather than less.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Teleosaurus » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:44 am

David wrote:
Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.
Revisionists don't deny that 10's of thousands of people died at
the Auschwitz/Birkenau complex. We say that British and
Soviet propagandists took real tragedies and exaggerated the stories
for political purposes. For example, all scholars now agree
that the Nuremberg Tribunal exaggerated the death toll of Auschwitz
by 1.5 to 3 Million victims with the Soviets on the high side.
The Majdanek toll was exaggerated by 20 times, over 1,250,000 million extra deaths. See Majdanek Victims Enumerated. Changes in the history textbooks?
http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?opt ... 4&Itemid=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The article does not mention the Nuremberg figures but starts
with Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz's figure of 360,000 only a 250,000 dead exaggeration.

And the Brits and Soviets paraded totally made up tales of human soap production,
human fertilizer factories and a shrunken head through the Nuremberg Tribunal.

The point is not to justify or minimize the crimes of the National
Socialists but to be aware that our own government and courts distort information
in any political situation. Truth is the first casualty of war.
Sooooo. . . .the conclusion is that the Nazis killed millions of people, but those dirty bastard Brits exaggerated the numbers.

You ought to be a defense attorney. "My client didn't kill more than a few million - tops. Those other people are just trying to make him look bad."

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Teleosaurus » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:46 am

Bunyip wrote:
Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.

I met a few too,when I was a lot younger,they told me the same thing. HOWEVER,those stories are anecdotal evidence, NOT proof,although I believe them completely.

WHY?

I believe the Holocaust occurred and the claims of 11 million murdered (6 million of whom were Jews) are true. I believe this because WW2 generally,and the Holocaust specifically are probably the most thoroughly,accurately recorded events in human history. Am I 1000% I CERTAIN? No,of course not ,I'm a skeptic,I'm not 100% certain of anything.However,in this instance I think the probability is so close to 100% that it's a non issue.

The irony is that hateful and idiotic Holocaust deniers such as David Irwin and his charming namesake here actually HELP keep the issue alive.Their blatant lies and puerile sophistry are simply swatted away by their intellectually honest. and generally smarter opponents.
I would call it "eyewitness testimony".

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:07 am

David wrote:Revisionists don't deny that 10's of thousands of people died at
the Auschwitz/Birkenau complex.
You are claiming "revisionists" who are holocaust deniers are historians. You claim to be a "revisionist" yet you fabricated dates for certain events knowing this to be untrue.

Here is an example.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 40#p255473" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please explain why you fabricated dates, knowing them to be false if you claim to be a revisionist. Is this not simply evidence that you lied as you are a holocaust denier?

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:39 pm

Teleosaurus wrote:
Bunyip wrote:
Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.

I met a few too,when I was a lot younger,they told me the same thing. HOWEVER,those stories are anecdotal evidence, NOT proof,although I believe them completely.

WHY?

I believe the Holocaust occurred and the claims of 11 million murdered (6 million of whom were Jews) are true. I believe this because WW2 generally,and the Holocaust specifically are probably the most thoroughly,accurately recorded events in human history. Am I 1000% I CERTAIN? No,of course not ,I'm a skeptic,I'm not 100% certain of anything.However,in this instance I think the probability is so close to 100% that it's a non issue.

The irony is that hateful and idiotic Holocaust deniers such as David Irwin and his charming namesake here actually HELP keep the issue alive.Their blatant lies and puerile sophistry are simply swatted away by their intellectually honest. and generally smarter opponents.
I would call it "eyewitness testimony".
So do I and to say such is not proof is wrong. Or else how do the courts prove anything?
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:36 pm

Nessie wrote:
So do I and to say such is not proof is wrong. Or else how do the courts prove anything?
?? Lots of ways besides testimony.

Documents
Physical evidence
circumstantial evidence

Testimony is generally just what one person saw or thinks they saw or
claims to have seen. "Eye witnessing" has always been the
backbone "evidence" in religious movements, witch trials, and political
show trials. For example "confessions" were the specialty of the infamous
Judge Iona Nikitchenko during the trials of Lev Kamenev and the "Trial of the Sixteen"


Relating to "Survivor Testimony:" John Demjanjuk's first conviction in Israel for being
"Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka (he was sentenced to hang) several
witnesses gave lurid and detailed testimony "positively identifying"
Mr. Demjanjuk as having been at Treblinka.
Mr. Demjanjuk has now been "positively identified" as having been at
Sobibor at the same time and the "testimony" of the eye witnesses
was ignored by both the Israeli Supreme Court and the German Court.

There is an interesting book on "eye witness" testimony in the 1st Demjanjuk
case entitled Identifying Ivan: A Case Study in Legal Psychology
Willem A. Wagenaar. He is a non-Revisionist but came to the conclusion that
all the eye witnesses were wrong.

In short, testimony is 'evidence' but often falls short of "proof."



Anyway, I am dusting off my Top Hat. Happy New Year to all.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:37 am

All that documentary evidence etc still needs a witness to speak to its origin and legitimacy. The courts role is to decide on the credibility of the witnesses and their evidence.

PS - are you going to confirm your position?
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Teleosaurus » Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:42 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:
So do I and to say such is not proof is wrong. Or else how do the courts prove anything?
?? Lots of ways besides testimony.

Documents
Physical evidence
circumstantial evidence

Testimony is generally just what one person saw or thinks they saw or
claims to have seen. "Eye witnessing" has always been the
backbone "evidence" in religious movements, witch trials, and political
show trials. For example "confessions" were the specialty of the infamous
Judge Iona Nikitchenko during the trials of Lev Kamenev and the "Trial of the Sixteen"


Relating to "Survivor Testimony:" John Demjanjuk's first conviction in Israel for being
"Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka (he was sentenced to hang) several
witnesses gave lurid and detailed testimony "positively identifying"
Mr. Demjanjuk as having been at Treblinka.
Mr. Demjanjuk has now been "positively identified" as having been at
Sobibor at the same time and the "testimony" of the eye witnesses
was ignored by both the Israeli Supreme Court and the German Court.

There is an interesting book on "eye witness" testimony in the 1st Demjanjuk
case entitled Identifying Ivan: A Case Study in Legal Psychology
Willem A. Wagenaar. He is a non-Revisionist but came to the conclusion that
all the eye witnesses were wrong.

In short, testimony is 'evidence' but often falls short of "proof."



Anyway, I am dusting off my Top Hat. Happy New Year to all.
They were there. You weren't. Which evidence wins?

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Bunyip » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:08 am

Eyewitness is notoriously unreliable,and of limited credibility when from a few people,so is not by itself often considered as proof 'beyond -reasonable doubt" HOWEVER,such evidence becomes credible and accepted as proof beyond reasonable doubt when supported by THOUSANDS of others, as is the case with many aspects of the Holocaust. Large scale eyewitness accounts become proof when supported by physical evidence such as the camps (and what was found on liberation in the camps).

PLUS Nazis records are extremely self incriminating ,EG FROM THEIR OWN RECORDS, the notorious einsatzgruppen admitted to murdering over ONE MILLION PEOPLE in Easter Europe

Having said that, quibbling over precise numbers is not only obscene,it's a strawman. There is no doubt as far as I'm concerned that The Third Reich exterminated what it considered 'untermenschen' as state policy.The aim was to obliterate entire peoples. THAT ,by definition,is genocide. Whether the 'real' figures are11 million,half of that at 5.5 million.or half of that at "ONLY" 2.75 MILLION men,women and children, is not something worthy of argument. I accept 11 million is closer to the truth than any lower figure argued by louche Holocaust deniers and other Nazi apologists.
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:44 pm

Bunyip wrote:Eyewitness is notoriously unreliable,and of limited credibility when from a few people,so is not by itself often considered as proof 'beyond -reasonable doubt" HOWEVER,such evidence becomes credible and accepted as proof beyond reasonable doubt when supported by THOUSANDS of others, as is the case with many aspects of the Holocaust. Large scale eyewitness accounts become proof when supported by physical evidence such as the camps (and what was found on liberation in the camps).

What are you babbling about?

The number of people who "eye witness" about gas chambers or
human soap factories is around a score at Auschwitz.
And the testimonies are contradictory and rebutted by physical evidence.
For example, at Majdanek the Soviet provided "eye witnesses"
claimed that 400,000 bodies were buried in the fields in huge pits.
At Treblinka the "eye witnesses" claimed that there were
huge steaming tanks! Or diesel engines!



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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:26 pm

David wrote:What are you babbling about?
Here is a list of all the eyewitnesses for the old and new gas chambers at Treblinka together with their descriptions. David denies Treblinka II is a death camp as he is a holocaust denier.
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:14 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:What are you babbling about?
Here is a list of all the eyewitnesses for the old and new gas chambers at Treblinka together with their descriptions. David denies Treblinka II is a death camp as he is a holocaust denier.
http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/ ... ebcad.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gee, Matt- You seem to have forgotten the first witnesses that I quoted.
What happened to your Steam Chamber testimony?

And then we have your tale,
") “And then he would slam the door shut,... then walk calmly down the flight of steel stairs to the basement where the machinery of death was located." (Demjanjuk, Teicholz, p.30)

A basement? Steel stairs? So you believe that the machine that
manufactured diesel exhaust was in a basement?

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by RICH-ENGLAND » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:11 am

David wrote:
RICH-ENGLAND wrote:bump, awaiting davids answer....

david. no offence but ive got to say. im no expert in this field but when i read up on the things that both you and matthew offer, it appears that matthew is backed by fact and you appear to be twisting and turning things to suit. also your refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes...

thanks

rich
Of course a "non-Believer's view" seems strange to you.
Take your idea that my "refusal to answer these questions speaks volumes..."

For you to even think that I have time over Christmas to screw around with a
string of stupid ideas "speaks volumes" ... as in you being a ditz with nothing
intelligent to add to the discussion.

But in the spirit of the season I am here to try and help lift you guys up
from Belief in the Ugly Myth.


We can start with an amazing Believer claim;
the idea that millions of bodies just "disappeared" without a trace aka. The "1005 Tale"

This tale refers to bodies that were burned in outdoor
pyres in Poland, the Ukraine, and other parts of the Soviet Union.

Like everything related to Belief, the figures are very wonky.
Originally, 4,000,000 bodies were supposed to have totally
"disappeared" at the concentration camps of Majdanek and Auschwitz
in a process described as "disappearing up the chimney," ie. cremation
in ovens.

Because of this Holocaust Belief as been called "Santa times 4,000,000."


Well that has changed by a mere 3,000,000 with the collapse of the
Majdanek and Auschwitz figures. So now you guys only believe
1,000,000 bodies "disappeared up the chimney."

Leaving aside the validity of the "disappearing up the chimney" claim, you Believers claim that about 5,000,000 bodies were totally destroyed
by outdoor cremation...by what is known to Believers as the
Einsatzkommando 1005,

"AKTION 1005 — EFFACING THE MURDER OF MILLIONS

The first stage was carried out in the death camps in Poland, and in Auschwitz until the crematona there became operational In the second stage, from the middle of 1943, the opening of the mass graves was begun in a systematic fashion, starting in the Soviet Union and continuing in Poland and Yugoslavia To carry out this task, units of Einsatzkommando 1005 were established in various geographical locations.

http://hgs.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/2/157.abstract" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Simply put, you Believers claim that this group dug up and burned
millions of bodies. For the most part no traces of any kind were left.

So, we can stop here for a minute while you think about the traces that
huge pit bonfires would leave and the logistics of burning 5,000,000 bodies.
your reply speaks even bigger volumes..........its extremely telling that of all the people in this thread, you chose to answer me, the person with the least knowledge of ww2 here.... nice way to avoid giving straight answers to the op which was specifically adressed at you, cheap way out and very typical divert and avoid tactic of conspiracy theory types.....

you start off with nonsense and insults, would you care to point out where i insulted you??????

a dits? me? really? whys that then? would you care to point out what brought you to the conclusion that im thick with nothing intelligent to add??????.... you dont know me at all and ive not been involved in this discussion, so i fail to see what grounds you have for making that stupid assumption.

also, you keep reeling off these words aimed at me "you believers", "believer" etc etc.... again, i will ask, on what grounds did you make that assumption????.. you dont know me at all, and ive not stated my opinion or stance on this matter.....

this reply of yours has shown sheer ignorance, stupidity and desperation and also you managed to avoid every point i made....

and just for your information, i am reading all this from scratch with an open mind, i am checking what youre writing/claiming and also what matthew is writing/claiming and then checking the links provided, and so far matthew is the one coming with credible evidence while you just appear to be rambling with a very obvious anti british agenda.....

thanks

rich

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:16 pm

David, can you confirm your position please as per the opening post.
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:53 am

Teleosaurus wrote:
David wrote:
Teleosaurus wrote:I have met a number of people with the numbers tattooed on their arms, who said they had gotten those tattooes at places like Auschwitz. They were there personally and seemed to think that people were being exterminated on an industrial scale.

They seemed pretty convincing.
Revisionists don't deny that 10's of thousands of people died at
the Auschwitz/Birkenau complex. We say that British and
Soviet propagandists took real tragedies and exaggerated the stories
for political purposes. For example, all scholars now agree
that the Nuremberg Tribunal exaggerated the death toll of Auschwitz
by 1.5 to 3 Million victims with the Soviets on the high side.
The Majdanek toll was exaggerated by 20 times, over 1,250,000 million extra deaths. See Majdanek Victims Enumerated. Changes in the history textbooks?
http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?opt ... 4&Itemid=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; The article does not mention the Nuremberg figures but starts
with Zdzisław Łukaszkiewicz's figure of 360,000 only a 250,000 dead exaggeration.

And the Brits and Soviets paraded totally made up tales of human soap production,
human fertilizer factories and a shrunken head through the Nuremberg Tribunal.

The point is not to justify or minimize the crimes of the National
Socialists but to be aware that our own government and courts distort information
in any political situation. Truth is the first casualty of war.
Sooooo. . . .the conclusion is that the Nazis killed millions of people, but those dirty bastard Brits exaggerated the numbers.

You ought to be a defense attorney. "My client didn't kill more than a few million - tops. Those other people are just trying to make him look bad."
You are confused regarding the point of the discussion.
I said, "The point is not to justify or minimize the crimes of the National
Socialists but to be aware that our own government and courts distort information
in any political situation. Truth is the first casualty of war."
I can also say that I don't like to be fed BullSh*t incorrectly labled as
History.

You have the example of the Majdanek figures. The actual figure was
exaggerated 20 fold with tales of human fertilizer factories thrown in.
You have the example of the extra millions of victims added to the
Auschwitz death toll. There is no doubt that Revisionists are right.

You can shrug off an error of a few million people. But don't pretend you
are believing in accurate history.



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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:36 pm

David, why do you shy away from confirming your position?
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Bunyip » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:16 pm

Umm, have I missed the point?


Is David simply labouring the bleedin' obvious? IE that politicians and governments lie, constantly?

Or that there is some VAST international conspiracy to lie to everyone about the Holocaust? Cue bono?

WHY does David need to tell so many transparent lies? I honestly think it may be a pathology,part of a paranoid personality disorder.

The bloke comes across as a complete fruit loop,more to be pitied for his deep fear and anger than blamed for his bizarre world view..
Man is not so much a rational animal as a rationalising one.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:45 pm

David, are you ashamed of your position? Is that why you avoid answering some simple questions?
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:19 am

[quote="Bunyip"]Umm, have I missed the point?
Bun, you're worse than that.
You are a total Believer moron with almost every line you write.
I can cover some of your major stupidities

You can snort that it is, "obvious? IE that politicians and governments lie, constantly"
and then miss two clear examples of being lied to.
" The government lies constantly. I believe the government."
Pathetic display of Skepticism.


Instead, you babble insults that "WHY does David need to tell so
many transparent lies." So you missed the point that
I am citing the Auschwitz State Museum.
You might have heard of it?

Maybe you should learn about the new research that exposes two examples
where the government lied about millions of deaths.
Go Fu*'n read it!
http://en.auschwitz.org/m/index.php?opt ... 4&Itemid=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"deep fear and anger than blamed for his bizarre world view."

Ok...two part comment, so let's step back and review our respective world views.
Putting it simply, Believers believe in tales of baby bonfires, human
soap production, vast trickery driving women and children in huge
underground shower/gas chambers, millions of disappearing bodies,
and human fertilizer factories.


I don't believe those tales. They are sick and truly bizarre.
You could say, "His uncommon world view" but you are
the dude with the bizarre world view.

As to "deep fear and anger"
Unfortunately there were plenty of real tragedies and
horrors in history but the huge drop in deaths at Majdanic
is GOOD NEWS. The one who gets angry (and babbles
stupidities) in the face of good news is YOU.



Try this on yourself. Tomorrow morning look in the mirror
and say, "I believe in Baby bonfires. I believe in Human Soap
Production."

If you had any intellectual integrity you would see that
Holocaust Belief actually engenders "fear and anger"
and Revisionism (as far as we are right) normalizes
history and removes some of anger and fear.


"Cue bono" ?? The question is why people believe stupid
things like human soap production or witches, or millions of disappearing
bodies and you try and make a display of your command of Latin.
(By the way, I am assuming you meant Cui bono)

People don't believe in stupid things because they are paid to.
It is more profound. What is this quintessence of dust?




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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:38 am

Nessie wrote:David, are you ashamed of your position? Is that why you avoid answering some simple questions?
No but I would be ashamed of asking such a stupid question.

I guess you see yourself as a Sancho Panza to the
crazed Quixote battling Revisionism (and the dark forces of
Neo-Nazi Skinheads).

"I see you avoid my Master's questions. Proof of your cowardice."

OK Sancho, ElLard asked my view on a string of tales.

75% of Holocaust Belief is crazed bullsh*t but not all.
so there are few "simple questions" in history.
Plus I have other things to do.

I started the discussion of the myth of AKTION 1005,
the tale that 5,000,000 bodies disappeared without a trace.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:22 am

David wrote:Putting it simply, Believers believe in tales of baby bonfires, human
soap production, vast trickery driving women and children in huge
underground shower/gas chambers, millions of disappearing bodies,
and human fertilizer factories.
David? You are making this strawman argument up again. Tsk tsk tsk. Can you link to anyone or any post on this forum that has ever mentioned:
1) Baby Bonfires.
2) Human soap production ( as opposed to experiments by Spanner in Danzig)
3) Human fertilizer factories.
Please stop making strawman arguments up because you are a holocaust denier who doesn't read books.

Are you saying the Nazis never tricked people into gas chambers? Yes or No?

Are you denying Sonder Aktion 1005 to hide evidence of mass executions?

David wrote:I believe in Human Soap Production."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_ ... rld_War_II" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:44 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:Putting it simply, Believers believe in tales of baby bonfires, human
soap production, vast trickery driving women and children in huge
underground shower/gas chambers, millions of disappearing bodies,
and human fertilizer factories.
David? You are making this strawman argument up again. Tsk tsk tsk. Can you link to anyone or any post on this forum that has ever mentioned:
1) Baby Bonfires.
2) Human soap production ( as opposed to experiments by Spanner in Danzig)
3) Human fertilizer factories.
Please stop making strawman arguments up because you are a holocaust denier who doesn't read books.



Three times before the cock crows the Believer will deny his
Beliefs. Of course you Believe the absurd stories except
that you are now hiding your cult tales for now.
You know exactly where the accurate statements of
Holocaust Belief come from.
1. Baby bonfires from Night, by the Weasel
2. Human Soap at Danzig from the Nuremberg Show Trial
3. Human Fertilizer also from the Nuremberg Show Trial.

As for your ridiculous claims that "Sonder Aktion Groupen 1005
could totally hide 5,000,000 bodies, No I don't believe them.
In fact, only a crazed loon could believe it.

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:23 pm

David wrote:
Nessie wrote:David, are you ashamed of your position? Is that why you avoid answering some simple questions?
No but I would be ashamed of asking such a stupid question.

I guess you see yourself as a Sancho Panza to the
crazed Quixote battling Revisionism (and the dark forces of
Neo-Nazi Skinheads).

"I see you avoid my Master's questions. Proof of your cowardice."

OK Sancho, ElLard asked my view on a string of tales.

75% of Holocaust Belief is crazed bullsh*t but not all.
so there are few "simple questions" in history.
Plus I have other things to do.

I started the discussion of the myth of AKTION 1005,
the tale that 5,000,000 bodies disappeared without a trace.
Sorry, just taking the mickey as I did not think for one moment that you would give straight answers to some straight questions.

There is no doubt that some fairy tales have come out of the Holocaust and further historial study as reduced the numbers of deaths and cast sufficient doubt so as not to believe some of the fairy tales.

Lets deal with the real issues and so please evidence "75% of Holocaust Belief is crazed bullsh*t"
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:32 am

Nessie wrote:
Sorry, just taking the mickey as I did not think for one moment that you would give straight answers to some straight questions.

There is no doubt that some fairy tales have come out of the Holocaust and further historial study as reduced the numbers of deaths and cast sufficient doubt so as not to believe some of the fairy tales.

Lets deal with the real issues and so please evidence "75% of Holocaust Belief is crazed bullsh*t"
Try Majdanek. Belief figure 1,400,000. Real figure, 78,000.

Try Auschwitz. Belief figure 4,000,000 Real figure, less than 1,000,000
and actually probably 220,000.

Try the tales of human soap.
Try the Shrunken Head Story. see http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/n ... nkenheads/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Try tale of Baby Bonfires-
"On his first night in Auschwitz, Elie saw German soldiers throwing Jewish babies into a fire, then pinched his face to be sure that he wasn't dreaming. "For a long time," he says, "I wondered, Did I see that? I sometimes doubt my own eyes.

Read more: http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Oprah-In ... z1ipHdCLij" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:56 am

David wrote:Try Majdanek. Belief figure 1,400,000. Real figure, 78,000.
Tsk tsk tsk...David, you are lying non stop in this post. The Majdanek figure were reduced to 360,000 in 1948 by normal research....You are pretending normal people currently believe it is 1.4million. Here are the dates that normal historians reduced the figures from a 1944 newspaper estimate.....

1944 / 1.5million
William H. Lawrence, a journalist who visited the camp with the Red Army, stated 1.5million in The New York Times on August 30, 1944. ( The New York Times is not a Soviet propaganda vehicle).


1948 / 360,000
Our good friend Justice Łukaszkiewicz investigated the site and reduced the figure to 360,000 in his 1948 Polish report.


1992 / 235,000
Dr. Czesaw Rajca, reduced the Łukaszkiewicz estimate to 235,000 in 1992 after researching at Majdanek on staff for eight years and qualified his estimate by publishing
" The people doing the research did not have access to all the sources, including some in Germany. Nor did I use all the records available in the museum archives, because they are fragmentary, and they will not be useful in analyzing the mortality figures at Majdanek until the data they contain is entered in the computers"

1995 / 78,000
Thomas Kranz worked with Dr. Czesaw Rajca at Majdanek Museum. Kranz's research states 78,000 with the qualification added by the staff at Majdanek
"However, we do not know the definitive number of prisoners who passed through the camp or the number of those whose deaths the camp administration did not register".

It was a communist judge in Poland who revised the figures downwards in 1948. The further reductions, with qualifications were made by the staff at the Majdanek Trust. Holocaust deniers Graf and Mottogno plagiarised Thomas Kranz but still got the number wrong at 40,000 and left off the qualification that it did not include unregistered victims.

Why are you lying so much in your posts?

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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by Nessie » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:45 am

Sorry David, you are not very convincing as you cherry pick the lowest figure you can find, no matter the source.

Meanwhile believers have clearly accepted the intial highest figures are often wrong and should be lower.
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Re: David Can you confirm your position?

Post by David » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:11 pm

Nessie wrote:Sorry David, you are not very convincing as you cherry pick the lowest figure you can find, no matter the source.

Meanwhile believers have clearly accepted the intial highest figures are often wrong and should be lower.
You're pretty funny, Ness. The lowest "source" is a researcher from the
Majdanek Museum itself, as reviewed by the Auschwitz State Museum.
You might have noticed that Kranz was the latest in research on the
subject and has not been contradicted or challenged in the last 7 years.
Matt didn't get the date of the article right :roll: :roll:


While Matt beams with approval on "Our good friend Justice Łukaszkiewicz's"
Stalin era figures, no one else gives any credence to Matt's "Good Friend."
And, of course, you miss that the figure paraded through the Nuremberg Trial
was 1,400,000.

So, an accurate statement is really that you (and Matt) are desperate to believe in
higher death tolls
and willing to ignore the current expert research (if you possibly can)