One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propaganda

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One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propaganda

Post by David » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:42 am

One of the grand myths of World War II has a beleaguered Josef Stalin inspiring the gallant Soviet Red army to hold a superior German army at bay for years and eventually prevail despite the refusal of his Western allies, the United States and Great Britain, to open a "second front" to relieve battlefield pressures on him.

DEATHRIDE: HITLER VS. STALIN: THE EASTERN FRONT, 1941-1945

By John Mosier

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... wii-myths/

"As Sir Winston Churchill wryly commented about Stalin's penchant for lying, "The Bolsheviks have discovered that truth does not matter as long as there is reiteration...." If a lie is "repeated often enough and loudly enough, [it] becomes accepted by the people."

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Argonessen » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:32 pm

From the article:
Mr. Mosier teaches history at Loyola University in New Orleans.


Nope. Mosier is an English professor:
http://chn.loyno.edu/english/faculty-staff/john-mosier

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Gord » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:40 pm

Argonessen wrote:From the article:
Mr. Mosier teaches history at Loyola University in New Orleans.


Nope. Mosier is an English professor:
http://chn.loyno.edu/english/faculty-staff/john-mosier

And these are his courses:

Courses Taught
Writing About Literature
Writing About Film
How To Read A Film
Studies in European Cinema
"Knowledge grows through infinite timelessness" -- the random fictional Deepak Chopra quote site
"Imagine an ennobling of what could be" -- the New Age BS Generator site
"You are also taking my words out of context." -- Justin
"Nullius in verba" -- The Royal Society ["take nobody's word for it"]
#ANDAMOVIE
Is Trump in jail yet?

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:43 pm

Argonessen wrote:From the article:
Mr. Mosier teaches history at Loyola University in New Orleans.


Nope. Mosier is an English professor:
http://chn.loyno.edu/english/faculty-staff/john-mosier


Well spotted. The College of Humanities and Natural Sciences (Loyola University, New Orleans), has awarded John Mosier the 2010 prize for Excellence in Research.
http://www.johnfmosier.com/

Here are the posts from the History forum identifying John Mosier's factual errors in his books.
http://thehistoryforum.com/forum/viewto ... 87&t=29260

Mosier is a supporter of the debunked pseudo-historian Suvorov. The old holocaust denial movement supported Suvorov because he suggested that Stalin was preparing to invade Germany and Hitler was forced to protect Germany by invading Russia.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:23 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Mosier is a supporter of the debunked pseudo-historian Suvorov. The old holocaust denial movement supported Suvorov because he suggested that Stalin was preparing to invade Germany and Hitler was forced to protect Germany by invading Russia.


Matthew, you are a dolt. The concept that war between Hitler and
Stalin was inevitable was not a fantasy of Suvorov but is commonly
accepted, in 1939 and today.

See the 1939 cartoon-Someone is taking someone for a walk

http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII8.htm

Only an idiot would fail to see that Stalin entered into a pact with Hitler
for strategic reasons.


Suvorov is an ex-Soviet military man and KGB member.
A very good source for information on the history of the Soviet military.

Ellard definitions- debunked pseudo-historian:
1. an educated and articulate historian whose views Ellard cannot argue with.
2. A victim of a Believer Smear campaign.
3. Anyone who makes a fool out of Ellard in a discussion, ie. a plentitude,
a multitude, a throng.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:07 am

David wrote: Matthew, you are a dolt.


No David. You lie non stop as you are a neo-nazi holocaust denier. Are you going to back up your ealier statement that Treblinka was an ordinance factory?

No?

Well piss off then and stop wasting real people's time. Saggy is more entertaining. Jerry Wright is more polite. Matt Giwer is the most comical idiot on the JREF holocaust denial circuit. 9/11 Investigator is almost surrealistic! You are just a small time liar and not worth the bother anymore.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Monster » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:54 pm

Communists have made propaganda and lies an art form. What's the surprise about that?
Listening twice as much as you speak is a sign of wisdom.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:01 pm

Phlegmak wrote: Communists have made propaganda and lies an art form. What's the surprise about that?


David is a complete idiot.

David wrote:Suvorov is an ex-Soviet military man and KGB member. A very good source for information on the history of the Soviet military.


The GRU is the military intelligence agency. The KGB is the combined name of the (current FSB and and SVR) civilian/economic intelligence agencies. David is confused because the KGB uses military ranks for non-executive staff. Suvorov is ex-GRU and had nothing to do with the KGB. Suvorov was a low ranking officer in the 41st Guards Tank army in Siberia. During the 39-45 war he would have been called a political officer and sent to rally the troops in the field. Suvarov made up crap about the BT-7 reconaissance tank as evidence of Stalin's aggression against Hitler. Suvorov also made technical errors about soviet armed forces hardware in 1982 that suggest he was way past his expiry date when it came to soviet technical information. . This is why holocaust deniers all quote Suvorov, despite not knowing anything about him.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Argonessen » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:45 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Suvarov made up crap about the BT-7 reconaissance tank as evidence of Stalin's aggression against Hitler.


Is this the thing about misinterpreting the removable tracks of the BT-7 as being a deliberate design for roads of better quality than those in the Soviet Union? Was Suvorov the first to come up with this?

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:12 am

Argonessen wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: Suvarov made up crap about the BT-7 reconaissance tank as evidence of Stalin's aggression against Hitler.


Is this the thing about misinterpreting the removable tracks of the BT-7 as being a deliberate design for roads of better quality than those in the Soviet Union? Was Suvorov the first to come up with this?


Suvarov put forward the argument that the BT-7 was a "fast tank" designed for reconaissance and therefore suggested the Russians were preparing an aggressive war rather than a defensive war. It had thin armour which makes the concept of BT-7's driving along German highways as just plain stupid. Tanks with heavy armour perform the "heavy armoured wedge point" ( Schwerepunkt) not reconaissance tanks. A little german 37mm anti tank gun could penetrate a BT-7. Suvarov was a political officer and not an armour expert.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Squishua » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:22 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:David is a complete idiot.

And he cited a cartoon!
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:38 am

Squishua wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:David is a complete idiot.

And he cited a cartoon!


Well that was a huge effort for him. I've been trying to get him some of his more blatant lies for years.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:26 am

Squishua wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:David is a complete idiot.

And he cited a cartoon!


Put a tinfoil hat on that guy.

Cartoons are often the most accurate concepts presented in the
newspaper.
In 1939 everyone knew that the peace between
Stalin and Hitler was bound to end with one or the other or both
betraying the other. It was so obvious that it was put into a
cartoon.
But maybe you boys don't know that Stalin attacked several
other countries in 1939-40...like Poland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania,
Estonia
Have you ever heard of Finnish Winter War 1939-1940?

So why are you guys getting your undies in knots because someone doesn't
think Stalin was just some sweet peaceful creampuff of a
dictator who wouldn't think of invading anybody?

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:52 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:Suvarov put forward the argument that the BT-7 was a "fast tank" designed for reconaissance and therefore suggested the Russians were preparing an aggressive war rather than a defensive war. It had thin armour which makes the concept of BT-7's driving along German highways as just plain stupid. Tanks with heavy armour perform the "heavy armoured wedge point" ( Schwerepunkt) not reconaissance tanks. A little german 37mm anti tank gun could penetrate a BT-7. Suvarov was a political officer and not an armour expert.


What are you arguing, Matthew? Suvarov seems to remember something
you forgot, like the Soviet invasion of its neighbors in 1939 and 1940.

The BT-7 was produced in the 1930's in large numbers, which sounds aggressive to me. It was a light reconaissance tank. Your assertion that reconaissance tanks need to be heavily armored if they invade Germany but not if they operate in the Soviet Union is stupid even for you. :lol: :lol:

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Argonessen » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:42 am

The Soviets had more T-26s than BT-7s at the start of the war.
If the idea that the BT-7 was somehow designed to operate outside the Soviet Union is evidence of a Soviet plan to invade the West, then they must have given up that plan by 1940 when the T-34 entered production. Or maybe in 1939 when they stopped building BT-7s.
I still think this BT-7 idea comes from a misunderstanding (deliberate or otherwise) about the option for the vehicle to operate without tracks as a wheeled road vehicle, a feature deemed to be unnecessary in practice, and not included in later models.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:44 am

Argonessen wrote:The Soviets had more T-26s than BT-7s at the start of the war.
If the idea that the BT-7 was somehow designed to operate outside the Soviet Union is evidence of a Soviet plan to invade the West, then they must have given up that plan by 1940 when the T-34 entered production. Or maybe in 1939 when they stopped building BT-7s.
I still think this BT-7 idea comes from a misunderstanding (deliberate or otherwise) about the option for the vehicle to operate without tracks as a wheeled road vehicle, a feature deemed to be unnecessary in practice, and not included in later models.


I think you have it right.

The original design was American, John Walter Christie. He was a race car
driver and had made the tank the fastest in the world with his convertible
tread to wheel design and light armor.
I pretty much doubt that he was planning to invade Germany and Poland when
he designed the tank in 1930.

Anyway, Soviet policy is clear not because of the treads on an old tank model
but because of a course of action by Stalin running from 1939 through the
invasion and post-War occupation of Iran.

It is typical Matthews to come up with some petty nattering rather than
look at the obvious larger picture.

NOW to defend Stalin- Just like I believe that it was German policy through
1940 to reestablish most of the German territories stripped away in 1919
Soviet Territorial Aggrandizement seems to have been limited to
those territories which had been stripped away from Russian in
1919.
That would be a reasonable riposte to Suvarov's thesis rather than
claiming that a light recon. tank should be heavily armored. :roll:

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all...even Matthews, may he get a few
good history books in his stocking to study.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:19 am

David wrote: Your assertion that reconaissance tanks need to be heavily armored if they invade Germany but not if they operate in the Soviet Union is stupid even for you. :lol: :lol:


David you are soooooo stupid you don't know how reconaissance tanks work. Reconaissance tanks don't engage the enemy. You obviously haven't read Suvorov either as you have completely missed his argument that Christie suspension works on German concrete autobahns but not Russian dirt roads.

In other words, you haven't read Suvorov. Go away!

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:29 am

David wrote: It is typical Matthews to come up with some petty nattering rather than
look at the obvious larger picture....Anyway, Merry Christmas to all...even Matthews, may he get a few good history books in his stocking to study.


David's biggest lies in 2010 that he refused to back up or even pretend to justify were.........

1) "5,000 people worked at each Treblinka camp" ( A direct lie with no citation)
2) "Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were
processed"
( A direct lie with no citation! What an idiot!)
3) "Treblinka was a transit camp" ( A direct lie with no citation or logic)

However the reason we know David is a complete moron is when he stated the Vichy French ships did not have their boilers fired up and then posted a video of the battle with all the French ships at full steam. At this point I realised David was senile and not worth bothering with anymore.

David, you are just too stupid. Give up.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:21 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:However the reason we know David is a complete moron is when he stated the Vichy French ships did not have their boilers fired up and then posted a video of the battle with all the French ships at full steam. At this point I realised David was senile and not worth bothering with anymore.


Well, I bet that you got a lump of coal in your stocking, Matthew, from the sound
of your off-topic post.

For anyone attempting to follow, Matthew is trying to refer to the
British sneak attack on the French at Mers-el-Kébir where
1,300 erstwhile French allies were killed.
The British started the hostilities by dropping mines in the harbor entrance
(in the middle of negotiations) and then firing when the French fired up their boilers. Most of the French were killed while their ships were moored.

The British didn't do so well when the French could move and fire back and one French vessel even escaped Churchill's treachery.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Argonessen » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:24 pm

I've now read the section on the BT tanks in 'Icebreaker'. It's all very plausible. Unless you know anything at all about the production history of Soviet armour that is, in which case it turns into a crock of shite.

"The Mark BT was created to operate on foreign
territory only and, what is more, only on territory where there were good roads, as already observed."

Strange then, that the Germans would have no trouble using a few hundred captured models themselves in Soviet territory (German designation PzKpfw BT 742). Obviously he doesn't address the point that the extra wheel assembly had been left off the later models as being too cumbersome and unnecessary.

He then makes a bizarre claim that the A-20 is some kind of mystery tank designed to drive on tracks across Poland and then switch to wheels for the German Autobahn. He omits the fact that the A-20 design was rejected by the end of 1939 in favour of the T-32 prototype (tracks only) which eventually evolved into the T-34 we all know and love . The T-34 was tracked only of course. Very wide tracks as well. Useful for travelling cross country, especially if it gets a bit muddy. . . .

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:12 pm

Argonessen wrote: I've now read the section on the BT tanks in 'Icebreaker'. It's all very plausible. Unless you know anything at all about the production history of Soviet armour that is, in which case it turns into a crock of shite.

Yep, it's complete crap for holocaust deniers.
Soviet Heavy Tanks / S Zaloga & J Grandsen / Osprey 1979
Soviet Tanks in action / Uwe Feist / Squadron 1973


Argonessen wrote: Strange then, that the Germans would have no trouble using a few hundred captured models themselves in Soviet territory (German designation PzKpfw BT 742). Obviously he doesn't address the point that the extra wheel assembly had been left off the later models as being too cumbersome and unnecessary.


Here is a nice picture for your wallet!
http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/d/utl/su/02843.jpg

The irony is that the T-34 & KV-1 & 2 had wide tracks for the Russian environment. The PzKpfw III & IV had to introduce cumbersome track spacers in their early Ausführungs to increase track width from 36cm to 40cm to match Soviet performance. Early war German tank design is very over-rated.

I'm glad you know your Russian manufacturing logistics. David, the holocaust denier, claims that Treblinka was really used to reprocess russian ordinance! Considering the German army and early "Marders" used the Russian 76.2mm anti-tank gun until caputured ordinance ran out and were then rechambered at Rhinemetal in Germany. David simply made this up.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by numan » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:10 pm

'
Why do I get the impression that both sides here care very little for providing clear evidence for their positions?

No, it's not an impression, it's an obvious fact!

Good show, "skeptics"!
Neither man nor woman can be worth anything until they have discovered that they are fools. This is the first step toward becoming either estimable or agreeable---and until it is taken, there is no hope.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:47 pm

numan wrote: Why do I get the impression that both sides here care very little for providing clear evidence for their positions? No, it's not an impression, it's an obvious fact! Good show, "skeptics"!


Argonessen wrote: the Germans.. no trouble using ....captured models in Soviet territory (PzKpfw BT 742)

Matthew Ellard wrote: Matthew supplies photo of PzKpfw BT 742 in Russia

Argonessen wrote: He omits the fact that the A-20 design was rejected by the end of 1939 in favour of the T-32 prototype (tracks only) which eventually evolved into the T-34

Matthew Ellard wrote: The PzKpfw III & IV had to introduce cumbersome track spacers in their early Ausführungs to increase track width from 36cm to 40cm to match Soviet performance

Matthew supplies reference books from his library supporting Argonessen's point.
Soviet Heavy Tanks / S Zaloga & J Grandsen / Osprey 1979
Soviet Tanks in action / Uwe Feist / Squadron 1973


Numan, you are a complete idiot. I have supplied two references from books that detail the track issue concerning the BT-7 and other vehicles. The problem is that you and David, the holocaust denier, know nothing about AFVs, their historic development or running gear systems. You just open your mouth as you are anti-american and stupid. David opens his mouth because he is anti-jewish and stupid.

Please stay away from the holocaust denier sub-forum. You are too stupid, under-educated and this is not the sub-forum for your anti-American rantings.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by numan » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:38 am

'
Not that I really care, Matthew, but, by the non-apparent rules of this site, shouldn't you be banned from this forum for your insulting statements?

I was, for much less.
Neither man nor woman can be worth anything until they have discovered that they are fools. This is the first step toward becoming either estimable or agreeable---and until it is taken, there is no hope.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:15 am

numan wrote:'
Not that I really care, Matthew, but, by the non-apparent rules of this site, shouldn't you be banned from this forum for your insulting statements?

I was, for much less.


No Numan. You have missed the point of your stupidity in the same way you missed all the hard evidence clearly set out by myself and Argonessen. I am objectively calling you "stupid". You didn't read any of the previous posts yet you say we didn't present any evidence, when we clearly did. You have done this previously with me when you incorrectly said I made an error about Peter the Hermit. You are simply a slow learner who wants to seek attention on this forum by adding comments on sub-forums that you don't bother reading.

How would you describe yourself considering your incorrect comment above about a lack of evidence being presented? What was your purpose in making this intentional error?


numan wrote: Not that I really care...

I see. So you pushed the "Quote poster" button and made your comment without caring. Yes...I can see that in most of your posts.

Is this your contribution to this sub-forum? How about you stop posting in this sub-forum as you "don't care"

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by numan » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:30 am

'

Not that I really care, Matthew, but I wonder why you assume that my remark was aimed at you?
Neither man nor woman can be worth anything until they have discovered that they are fools. This is the first step toward becoming either estimable or agreeable---and until it is taken, there is no hope.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:49 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:You have missed the point of your stupidity in the same way you missed all the hard evidence clearly set out by myself and Argonessen.


Matthew, why don't you try a New Year's Resolution of
keeping on topic and not being rude?

John Mosier's book seems pretty good on the subject.
You have your undies in a knot because Stalin is NOT looked at as
a hero in the book and may have had aggressive plans to move West.
That is pretty obvious to everyone but you.

Instead of admitting the obvious you are off
nattering about how the BT-7 reconaissance tank
couldn't "perform the "heavy armoured wedge point"
and insulting Numan because he ask a question about
Suvorov (whom you defame) and Mosier (whom you smear)

The relations between German and the Soviet Union in the
period 1939 - June 1941 are interesting and complex.
You take a simplistic and inane view.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:43 am

David wrote: Matthew, why don't you try a New Year's Resolution of keeping on topic and not being rude?

Gosh David. I was hoping your new year resolution was to start backing up your lies from 2010. Fat chance of that.........

David wrote: You have your undies in a knot because Stalin is NOT looked at as
a hero in the book and may have had aggressive plans to move West. That is pretty obvious to everyone but you.

Trotsky ran the comintern ( International communist movement). Stalin's policy was still "socialism in one country" when Stalin has Trotsky killed. Please read some basic history before posting again.

David wrote: The relations between German and the Soviet Union in the
period 1939 - June 1941 are interesting and complex. You take a simplistic and inane view.

No David. My main area is Russian modern history. You don't even know basics, like why Trotsky was killed. Give up and limit yourself to Stormfront White-power forum thanks.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:53 am

numan wrote: Not that I really care, Matthew, but I wonder why you assume that my remark was aimed at you?

Read your own post again.
numan wrote: Why do I get the impression that both sides here care very little for providing clear evidence for their positions?

You posted this after Argonessen and I had supplied hard evidence but you didn't bother reading it. What makes you look really thick is your recent post welcoming new members
numan wrote: But if you want to become more educated, you would do well to read the entire corpus of my postings carefully.

So they should read your posts carefully but you don't read other members posts with any care at all!

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Squishua » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:10 am

Yeah, wartime propaganda cartoons accurately depict political dynamics.

And its an aluminum foil hat. :glare:
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
- H. L. Mencken

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by numan » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:37 am

Squishua wrote:And its an aluminum foil hat. :glare:

SEZ YOU! · · · :glare:

Oxford English Dictionary: ALUMINIUM
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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:46 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:No David. My main area is Russian modern history. You don't even know basics, like why Trotsky was killed.


Hello Matthew- I thought your main interest was SS leather boot styles
but since you are now an expert on Russian modern history, I'll
bite.
What is the real reason Trotsky was murdered?

Matthew Ellard wrote:Stalin's policy was still "socialism in one country" when Stalin has Trotsky killed.


How interesting...and the "one country" included Eastern Poland?
And Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia?
But maybe you don't know when Stalin had Trotsky murdered?

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:50 am

Squishua wrote:Yeah, wartime propaganda cartoons accurately depict political dynamics.


Actually, they probably depict popular perceptions more accurately than post-War showtrials depict reality. :lol:

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:35 am

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:No David. My main area is Russian modern history. You don't even know basics, like why Trotsky was killed.


Hello Matthew- I thought your main interest was SS leather boot styles

Indeed it is. The short cuff leather boot replaced the jackboot in September 1943 due to leather shortages. It is one of the methods I use to date photographs, same as blousing methods, pleating of pockets methods etc...this is called "photo-analysis".....quite common really....

David wrote: What is the real reason Trotsky was murdered?

I'm going to answer this and your other questions in the politics sub-forum tomorrow as I consider it tasteless to talk about Trotsky in a holocaust denier forum. Also I'm finding you very boring at the moment ( as you make stuff up and run away).

(Have you got that "evidence" yet about Treblinka being a captured soviet munitions factory yet?.........I didn't think so..........maybe in 2012?......Gosh you "revisionists"are slow at your work.......many people would think you just made that "fact" up......)

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:03 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:

Hello Matthew- I thought your main interest was SS leather boot styles

Indeed it is.


I guessed so...did you wear some when you strolled along Falkland road?




David wrote: What is the real reason Trotsky was murdered?

[color=#0000BF]I'm going to answer this and your other questions in the politics sub-forum tomorrow as I consider it tasteless to talk about Trotsky in a holocaust denier forum. Also I'm finding you very boring at the moment ( as you make stuff up and run away). [/quote]
It might be tasteless to talk about Trotsky in a forum about ice picks,
like "When Ice Picks are illegal, only Stalinists will have ice picks"
Or do you have some Matthewish theory that Hitler was responsible
for Trot's murder?

Since we have wandered far off topic the original topic of Soviet Propaganda,
I will answer the question about munitions at Treblinka.
Ever heard of Lukaszkiewicz? He was the source of many wild
Holocaust tales relating to Majdanek and Treblinka.

But note what he wrote about Treblinka Camp II


"Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location
– two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater."

Have an explanation for all the bombs at Treblinka, Matthew?

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:16 am

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote:

Hello Matthew- I thought your main interest was SS leather boot styles

Indeed it is. The short cuff leather boot replaced the jackboot in September 1943 due to leather shortages. It is one of the methods I use to date photographs, same as blousing methods, pleating of pockets methods etc...this is called "photo-analysis".....quite common really..


I guessed so...did you wear some when you strolled along Falkland road?


No David. I was living in Kerela and wore shoes. Sames as when I lived in Austria, Germany, Malaysia and England. Why are you so interested in Indian transexual prostitutes? Do you have a question about discounts for holocaust deniers or something else?

I note you didn't understand "photo interpretation". That makes sense. None of the members of CODOH or Stormfront knows what it means either.


David wrote: What is the real reason Trotsky was murdered?

Matthew Ellard wrote: I'm going to answer this and your other questions in the politics sub-forum tomorrow as I consider it tasteless to talk about Trotsky in a holocaust denier forum. Also I'm finding you very boring at the moment ( as you make stuff up and run away).

David wrote: It might be tasteless to talk about Trotsky in a forum about ice picks,
like "When Ice Picks are illegal, only Stalinists will have ice picks"


Poor poor stupid David....you are unaware that they tried bombs first. Do you know who Trotsky is?

David wrote: Or do you have some Matthewish theory that Hitler was responsible
for Trot's murder?

I have posted the name of the NKVD file, its details, Stalin's notes, all sitting in Moscow Centre for your perusal in the Politics sub-forum. Feel free to crawl out from underneath your rock and make comments in this sub-forum.

David wrote: Since we have wandered far off topic the original topic of Soviet Propaganda, I will answer the question about munitions at Treblinka.

OK...Here is your original statement...
David wrote: Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed. Both camps together had about 5,000 inmates on the average.


David wrote: Ever heard of Lukaszkiewicz? He was the source of many wild Holocaust tales relating to Majdanek and Treblinka. But note what he wrote about Treblinka Camp II "Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater."
Have an explanation for all the bombs at Treblinka, Matthew?


Yes, you complete idiot. The Red Army marched through Treblinka fighting a war after Treblinka was closed in 1943. The locals used soviet UXBs to search for gold after the Red Army moved forward. Read Lukaszkiewicz again where he says exactly this.

You are so stupid you can't even remember your own stupid statements! Where did Lukaszkiewicz say Treblinka was a reprocessing plant for Soviet muntions? You simply told a HUGE LIE and got caught out yet again. Do you have any evidence at all that the 713,555 people at Treblinka ( Holfle Telegram) even saw Soviet ordinance? Did Rhinemetal transport it's 30ton, rechambering machines to Treblinka, for use by untrained labour, during the 75mm barrel shortage period? ( Soviets use a 76.2mm chamber) Are you that stupid!


( Actually what makes you really stupid is that you can't get your stories to match. On one hand you say Treblinka was a transit camp. The next day you say it was a munitions reprocessing factory. What new stories will you make up for tomorrow?)

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:35 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:

David wrote: Since we have wandered far off topic the original topic of Soviet Propaganda, I will answer the question about munitions at Treblinka.

OK...Here is your original statement...
David wrote: Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed. Both camps together had about 5,000 inmates on the average.


David wrote: Ever heard of Lukaszkiewicz? He was the source of many wild Holocaust tales relating to Majdanek and Treblinka. But note what he wrote about Treblinka Camp II "Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater."
Have an explanation for all the bombs at Treblinka, Matthew?


Yes, you complete idiot. The Red Army marched through Treblinka fighting a war after Treblinka was closed in 1943. The locals used soviet UXBs to search for gold after the Red Army moved forward. Read Lukaszkiewicz again where he says exactly this.

You are so stupid you can't even remember your own stupid statements! Where did Lukaszkiewicz say Treblinka was a reprocessing plant for Soviet muntions? You simply told a HUGE LIE and got caught out yet again. [snip drivel]
[color=#0000BF]( Actually what makes you really stupid is that you can't get your stories to match. On one hand you say Treblinka was a transit camp. The next day you say it was a munitions reprocessing factory. What new stories will you make up for tomorrow?)



Of course it was a transit camp. Why would that
preclude it having other functions? Treblinka I was a huge quarry...
dozens of trains came and went right past Treblinka II.

Anyway, back to your "explanation" that "The locals used soviet UXBs to search for gold".

The tale of brutish Poles rooting around for Jewish gold is standard
Holocaust fodder but I do not know of any gold that was found at Treblinka.

In all his digging did Lukaszkiewicz find any gold?
He had large crews frantically looking for bodies, found some old clothes, some
broken pots, some coins, a few papers....any gold, Matthew?

In fact, has any Museum person or anybody found any GOLD at Treblinka?

One could also wonder if tales of Polish peasants acquiring tons of Soviet
UXB's to mine for gold is reasonable.

As Lukaszkiewicz points out, "Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater."
So we have a scene where unexploded bombs were felt lying around and
numberous other ones were exploded.
You claim that, somehow, Polish peasants acquired Soviet explosives and
brought them on site (and left some of them) to mine for gold.
But, in fact, not one gold coin has ever been found (and reported) at
Treblinka despite the finding of lots of other garbage.
Your tale does not make any sense, Matthew.
Mine does.

[/color]

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:58 am

David's original statement wrote: Treblinka II was also a camp where captured Soviet munitions were processed. Both camps together had about 5,000 inmates on the average.


David wrote: Of course it was a transit camp. Why would that preclude it having other functions? Treblinka I was a huge quarry...dozens of trains came and went right past Treblinka II.


Jesus you are stupid!
1) There was no machinery at Treblinka to reprocess Soviet ordinance. ( As I pointed out a 30ton press for inserting barrels only existed at three places near Rhinemetal and near Swedish chromium and magnesium supplies.
2) The Todt organisation retained skilled german workers for this purpose at these Rhinemetal factories in Germany. Albert Speer talks about it in depth. How were polish children and women pouring hot metal from a high pressure foundry that didn't exist at Treblinka? ( you idiot)
3) There were 713,555 people executed at Treblinka by Dec42 as detailed in the Hofle Telegram, not the 5000 you made up on the spot! You pretend you can't read the Hofle telegram.
4) Why would Germany's Heersamt ( ordinance command) manufacture weapons in
the obscure village of Treblinka in Poland?
5) You have absolutely NO EVIDENCE and simply MADE THIS FACT UP!


David wrote: Anyway, back to your "explanation" that "The locals used soviet UXBs to search for gold". The tale of brutish Poles rooting around for Jewish gold is standard Holocaust fodder but I do not know of any gold that was found at Treblinka.

You could look at the photos at Holocaust Contraversies forum of Polish peasants sitting for a photo doing exactly this. The photo came after Lukaszkiewicz's report. Alternatively you can read the comment from the current curator of the Treblinka trust who says he hasn't chased away a local with a metal detector for ten years.

David wrote:In fact, has any Museum person or anybody found any GOLD at Treblinka?

Yep. The SS documents state they transported 18kg to 36kg of gold each week from Treblinka to Warsaw. They found it in people's mouths. Do you want me to post this link yet again? ( Your memory is terrible)

David wrote: One could also wonder if tales of Polish peasants acquiring tons of Soviet UXB's to mine for gold is reasonable.

Who said "tons"?

David wrote: As Lukaszkiewicz points out, "Since a bomb crater 4 to 5-meter deep is present at the said location – two bombs still lie at a slight distance from this crater – the digging was begun in this crater."
So we have a scene where unexploded bombs were felt lying around and
numberous other ones were exploded.
You claim that, somehow, Polish peasants acquired Soviet explosives and
brought them on site (and left some of them) to mine for gold.

No,. I said they used soviet UXB ordinance in exactly the same way as Taliban peasants use American UXBs as roadside weapons. Modify the fuse, get a switch, a car battery and a spade and off you go. Taliban simply copied the Pied Noir technique from the 1950s used in Algeria by adding a copper plate as a pentetrator. At treblinka they simply wanted a bang....very simple.....

David wrote: But, in fact, not one gold coin has ever been found (and reported) at
Treblinka

18kgs to 36kgs every week according to SS documents....( you are pretending you have forgotten....again.....)

David wrote: Your tale does not make any sense, Matthew. Mine does.

Your "tale" is the most illogical load of crap I have ever heard! You don't know what the Todt organisation is. (Ordinance manufacture with documents) You think untrained Polish peasants can rechamber Soviet weapons with their bare hands ( and somehow have high carbon steel ready to pour without a smelter, without it's power grid or without mega-litres of water) . You have confused the Soviet explosive shells with barrel manufacture ( You don't reprocess the shells you idiot, you reprocess the barrel. The shells were already captured intact Why in hell would you repack explosives into soviet 76.2mm shells and not German 75mm shells for which you already have the barrels . Your stupidity is constant but always amazing.

David...... give up. You tried to suggest I wear jackboots visiting transexual prostitues along Fakland Road in India....because you have no arguments left. The holocaust denial cult is over, kaput, dead in the water. The flat earth society has more members.

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by OlegTheBatty » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:11 am

Matthew, I think I've found where the deniers get their ordinance information from:

Journalist's Guide to Firearms Identification
. . . with the satisfied air of a man who thinks he has an idea of his own because he has commented on the idea of another . . . - Alexandre Dumas 'The Count of Monte Cristo"

There is no statement so absurd that it has not been uttered by some philosopher. - Cicero

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Re: One of the grand myths of World War II Soviet propagand

Post by David » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:00 am

David wrote:munitions

Matthew Ellard wrote:Soviet ordinance. ( As I pointed out a 30ton press


Matthews- Why are you babbling about 30 ton presses? The Germans
would have had inmates salvage captured Soviet munitions (like UXBs)
Try another strawman.
Matthew Ellard wrote:manufacture weapons

Can you please go back and read my quote and think as hard about
holding an honest discussion as you think about making diversions.
Thank you.
David wrote:The tale of brutish Poles rooting around for Jewish gold is standard Holocaust fodder but I do not know of any gold that was found at Treblinka.


Let's see if you can address the FACT...no gold ever found at Treblinka
by Lukaszkiewicz or anyone else including during the extensive
excavations needed for the monuments


Matthew Ellard wrote:The SS documents state they transported 18kg to 36kg of gold each week from Treblinka to Warsaw



Matthew- Another strawman/diversion, Matthew.
The more you babble about tons of gold being shipped from Treblinka and vast hoards of gold allegedly being found by greedy Polish brutes
the more you have to explain about the total lack of any gold ever
being found at Treblinka.

NO ONE HAS EVER PRODUCED ONE GOLD COIN despite extensive
official digging and the building of a large monument at the site.

The physical evidence at the site contradicts your tales.

But I know, Matthew, all the gold coins melted away just like your
fields of bones! That's it....another miracle!



Matthew Ellard wrote:o,. I said they used soviet UXB ordinance in exactly the same way as Taliban peasants


Matthew- The site had bombs lying around, shrapnel and 15 foot deep craters.
Tons is probably the correct amount. Unfortunately, the Soviets
and Poles destroyed the evidence. :shock: :shock:


As to Taliban "peasants", you don't know what you are talking about.


Treblinka II was extensively excavated by the Soviets in 1944
and the Poles the next year.
They found garbage, broken pots, papers, a few coins, a few bodies,
the foundations of some buildings, some burnt posts,
and nothing else.

There is NO Trace of your oceans of bones and mountains of gold.