Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

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Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:10 am

In this Holocaust history sub forum, the holocaust deniers claim that their revisionism will lead to the truth about history. However they are using 1939 to 1945 Nazi propaganda concerning Churchill directly showing their pro-nazi belief system.
David wrote: The reality is that Churchill was a treacherous and brutal drunk who wouldn't wait past afternoon cocktail time to order the mining and then the
attack on the French on 15 minutes notice

These are some covers of the Nazi propaganda magazine Simplicissimus.

The first is Churchill standing in a pool of blood spilt from his French Allies. The magazine contains the same lies as David. The Free French were England's allies, not the Vichy. Nazi's won't say that aloud as the Nazis were the actual people who killed French when they invaded France. ( something David ignores)

http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/images/wc/simp40-20.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is another Simplicissimus propaganda cover of Churchill as a drunkard.
http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/images/wc/simp39-47.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just want to say that there is something disgusting about people using Nazi wartime propaganda on this forum pretending it is "revisionism". If they don't like jews or black people they should just join the KKK and stop this farce that they are historians. They are just pond scum fools who follow propaganda.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:20 pm

Matthew, Matthew-
Just because there is a characture of Churchill as a bloody
killer in some German paper doesn't mean that Churchill did not
commit any crimes...or drink too much.
The Germans picked up on realities and perceptions
of the British and exaggerated them just like the British did with the
Germans

In fact, Churchill had a fair share of attacks on civilians, usually
third world villages but also carpet bombing of cities in Europe.
It is clear that his ordering of an attack on Mers el-Kébir was a
brutal and totally unnecessary act. Admit it and move on.

However, your "defense" of Churchill shows the fundamental
dishonesty of Believers. You are unable to have any rational
discussion of Churchill. You end up calling people "pond scum fools"
and calling for the hanging of men like the honorable Admiral Marcel Gensoul.

Churchill had his virtues and his faults, like any human.
But as a Believer, you can only be comfortable with a world
populated by devils and (your own) heros...
Amazing evil and amazing good.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:56 pm

This document may assist you in getting the basic facts right next time.
http://www.admirals.org.uk/records/adm/ ... 1_7-31.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:47 am

David wrote: Matthew, Matthew- Just because there is a characture of Churchill as a bloody killer in some German paper doesn't mean that Churchill did not
commit any crimes...or drink too much.
Everyone drank. Hitler didn't. You are following 65 year old Nazi propaganda first issued by the Nazis, that Churchill was a drunkard. I assume CODOH or IHR issue you themes to talk about and you copy them here. The Americans did exactly the same to the French at the Battle of Casablanca however as CODOH or IHR do not mention this, neither can you. You are restricted by your cult leaders to only talk about Churchill.

Please explain in your own words, this time, how "The Battle for Casablanca" is different? ( I understand there is no wartime Nazi progaganda for you to follow so this will be more difficult for you)

David wrote: The Germans picked up on realities and perceptions
of the British and exaggerated them just like the British did with the
Germans
That was 65 years ago. Here you are in 2010 still pushing out wartime Nazi propaganda!
David wrote:However, your "defense" of Churchill shows the fundamental
dishonesty of Believers.

David's first lie "French sailors were killed during the British sneak attack"
David's second lie "Churchill's attack on the French was a sneak attack
David's third lie "order the mining and then the attack on the French on 15 minutes notice"
David's fourth lie "The reality is that Churchill was a treacherous and brutal drunk who wouldn't wait past afternoon cocktail time"

David wrote:You are unable to have any rational discussion of Churchill"
You lie so much it is impossible. All I do is go read the facts. You should try it sometime.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:36 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:This document may assist you in getting the basic facts right next time.
British navy reports on the British navy as being
Most Excellent. Well done, British navy!

Matthew, you can't be that stupid.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:10 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: David's fourth lie "The reality is that Churchill was a treacherous and brutal drunk who wouldn't wait past afternoon cocktail time"[/color]
David wrote:You are unable to have any rational discussion of Churchill"
You lie so much it is impossible. All I do is go read the facts. You should try it sometime.

Lie? Didn't the British, on Churchill's order, attack the French?
Did the British declare war first? No. Didn't they kill over 1,200 French sailors who
had been their ally just weeks before? All you do is babble idiotic excuses...
like the British were striking at the Africa Korps "supply lines."
Now THAT is a stupid lie you made up.

And Churchill's treachery toward the French was mirrored later in the
War by his abandonment of the Free Poles and of Eastern Poland to
Stalin. Churchill stood firm to maintain Polish borders...er, well the
western ones at least.

Then we have Churchill, the general who learned war playing with
expensive tin soldiers. The same disregard for the lives of "colonials"
he showed at Gallipoli Campaign, where he squandered the lives of thousands
of brave ANZAC troops he showed again at the Dieppe Raid, squandering the
lives of thousands of Canadians.

Of course, what he missed as being a general he more than made up
for as a brilliant self-promoter and propagandist. Churchill himself
boasted that "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."
He said it himself and you gibber at me for noticing Churchill
put a favorable spin on "history."
Churchill quote on war,
I think a curse should rest on me — because I love this war. I know it's smashing and shattering the lives of thousands every moment — and yet — I can't help it — I enjoy every second of it.
A letter to a friend (1916)

As for Brutal, look at his actions in Iraq promoting Bomber Harris...
the man proud that he could kill or maim 1/3 of a village in 45 minutes.
Look at Churchill's use of Carpet bombing of cities, killing hundreds
of thousands of people. Look at his advocacy of mustard gas against
the Iraqis or his fascination with germ warfare.

Of course, if his brutal actions drew criticism, Churchill would (as he did after
his attack at Mer El Kabir) appear and cry in public and throw out
excuses.

Rather than look at things honestly, you babble on about
Nazi propaganda...which is just a stupid and irrelevant way to
avoid an analysis of Churchill's actions

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:32 am

David wrote:Then we have Churchill, the general who learned war playing with
expensive tin soldiers. The same disregard for the lives of "colonials"
he showed at Gallipoli Campaign, where he squandered the lives of thousands
of brave ANZAC troops he showed again at the Dieppe Raid, squandering the
lives of thousands of Canadians.
Wait, what?

Your understanding of Dieppe seems to be very different from mine. And from history's.
In 1942, the Combined Operations Headquarters had good reasons for attempting a raid on Dieppe: on the eastern front a decisive battle was pitching the advancing German troops against the resistance of the Red Army and the Russian people. Stalin asked Churchill and Eisenhower to help the USSR by opening up a Western front in continental Europe, to prevent Hitler from throwing all the might of his armies against the Soviets. As a result, Great Britain planned a series of major raids against German defence installations along the Channel. Only one such operation was actually conducted: Dieppe.

The Allies' long-term goal was to get a foothold on the continent and set up a bridgehead from where ground forces could move into Europe. But before it could attempt a large-scale landing, the Combined Operations Headquarters had to test some of its assumptions in real action. Would it be possible to capture a fortified seaport large enough to be used afterwards by invading troops, and that, without destroying its infrastructures? Amphibious landing techniques had been successfully tested in previous operations but how would the new barges designed to carry tanks and heavy artillery behave? There was a need to test the complex combination of land, naval and air manoeuvres required by a large-scale invasion in real action conditions, in order to check the efficiency of new equipment, communication lines and chains of command. The August 19th, 1942, raid was to answer all those questions.

. . .

Dieppe was a pathetic failure. Sixty years later, it seems obvious that Jubilee was a bizarre operation with no chance of success whatsoever and likely to result in a huge number of casualties. In August 1942, British and Allied officers did not have yet the knowledge and combat experience to make a proper assessment of the risks of such an operation. This catastrophe was useful precisely in providing that knowledge which was later to make victory possible.

The Dieppe fiasco demonstrated that it was imperative to improve communications at all levels: on the battlefield, between the HQs of each unit, between air, naval and ground forces. The idea of capturing a well-defended seaport to use as a bridgehead was dropped after August 19th, 1942. In addition, the raid on Dieppe showed how important it was to use prior air bombings to destroy enemy defences as much as possible, to support assault troops with artillery fire from ships and landing crafts, to improve techniques and equipment to remove obstacles to men and tanks.

The true meaning of the sacrifices made at Dieppe was made obvious two years after this ill-fated date, when on D-Day the Allies gained a foothold in Europe to free the continent from Nazi aggression.
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:34 am

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:This document may assist you in getting the basic facts right next time.
British navy reports on the British navy as being
Most Excellent. Well done, British navy!

Matthew, you can't be that stupid.
Read the timings on it concerning the offer. Find Churchill's name in the orders. Your wartime Nazi propaganda story has collapsed.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:49 am

Gord wrote: Your understanding of Dieppe seems to be very different from mine.

Gord- No, my understand is the same as "history's" you just seem
confused about the meaning of the words, "catastrophe" and "fiasco".
No, make that, "Dieppe was a pathetic failure." Do you read the stuff
you post?

"This catastrophe was useful precisely in providing that knowledge which was later to make victory possible."

That is sure stretching for a "silver lining" in a catastrophe/pathetic fiasco, to use
the words of your quote.

In fact, there are lots of BETTER ways to test your equipment than
sending a few boatloads of Canadians into a German stronghold...as was shown
60 days later in Operation Torch. Or the Battle of Guadalcanal.

So the catastrophe was typical Churchill...after his second bottle
of scotch he gets a brilliant idea...seize a "a fortified seaport."
Now THAT is a clever idea!

After the disaster, we get the "spin"...er ah..."we are doing our part
to help our brave Russian allies." As if a disastrous raid was going
to do anything but allow the Germans to transfer more troops to
the Eastern front.
And, to scape the bottom of the excuse barrel, ah, we have learned
valuable lessons here... let's NOT try and seize a fortified seaport. hic!

I said the bibulous Churchill SQUANDERED Canadian lives.
That is exactly what he did.
He sent 6,000 men ashore in Occupied France.
That is Six Thousand vs. a Hundred of Thousand Germans
ready to respond with tanks and artillery.
It was lunacy on its face. In was pathetic because it was
doomed from the start. It was a massacre.
And you are trying to defend the idiot who ordered it.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: David's fourth lie "The reality is that Churchill was a treacherous and brutal drunk who wouldn't wait past afternoon cocktail time"
David wrote:You are unable to have any rational discussion of Churchill"
Matthew Ellard wrote: You lie so much it is impossible. All I do is go read the facts. You should try it sometime.
David wrote: Lie? Didn't the British, on Churchill's order, attack the French?
Did the British declare war first? No.
So you now admit you lied about the "suprise attack" and lied again about the 15minutes warning. Let's look at your latest lie.
1) France is Britain's ally. The French government was in London. The Vichy Government was a bunch of traitors and Petain was sentenced to death as a traitor. ( You lie again!)
2) How could Churchill declare war on Vichy France if the elected French Government is in London? Vichy France was not a nation as most of France was occupied direct by Germany . ( another lie by David!)
3) Churchill's name does not appear on the orders as the orders were issued by Admiralty. (even more lies by David)

David wrote: Didn't they kill over 1,200 French sailors who
had been their ally just weeks before?
No, The Vichy French were never allies of Britain. If they were, why didn't they accept Churchill's offer to join them as allies? You are confusing the Nazis and Italians when the Nazis destroyed the Italian fleet when Italy changed sides. The Germans didn't offer them to come fight again nor any warning at all.
David wrote: All you do is babble idiotic excuses...like the British were striking at the Africa Korps "supply lines". Now THAT is a stupid lie you made up.
The Vichy fleet at Algiers was attacked on 3 July 1940.
On 11 June 1940 Axis forces attacked Egypt.
On 25 June 1940 280,000 Italian troops moved from Tunisia ( the port next to the Vichy Fleet and entered Cyrenaica to start the western desert campaign.


Now David, go buy a map and point to where Tunisia is. Point to where Algeria is. Point to where British Gibraltar is. Now.....Was the Vichy Fleet smack bang on the the Axis supply routes and indeed Britain's supply route to the Western Desert? Where did the Americans land in Operation Torch to end this supply route? ( Hint Algiers)

Why are you too frightened to comment about the Battle for Casablanca? I understand that most holocaust deniers are cowards and run like Jorgen Graf rabbits but why won't you talk about this. The Americans attacked the Vichy French exactly in the same way as the British (but there was no Nazi propaganda). Are not all Americans equal criminals to Churchill in your weird logic?

Are you waiting for someone at CODOH to tell you what to say next....your "leader" perhaps?

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:50 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:On 25 June 1940 280,000 Italian troops moved from Tunisia
Matthew Ellard wrote: Now David, go buy a map and point to where Tunisia is.
Ah...Matthew, Tunisia was French, not Italian in 1940. :lol: :lol:

It was occupied by the Germans in November 1942 in
response to the US and British invasion of French North Africa

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:18 am

Just a reminder.......How are you going on "The Battle of Casablanca"?

Are American's war criminals for doing the same as Churchill in fighting Vichy troops? OR Do holocaust deniers "pick & choose" little bits of history to support their arguments and ignore all other evidence? Which is it?

Why are you ignoring the German destruction of the Italian fleet? Didn't Germany kill 1860 Italian "allies" when they sank the Italian Fleet? Is that OK in your mind because they were Nazis? You really like the Nazi's don't you? Bad luck, they aren't coming back.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:14 am

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote:On 25 June 1940 280,000 Italian troops moved from Tunisia
Matthew Ellard wrote: Now David, go buy a map and point to where Tunisia is.
Ah...Matthew, Tunisia was French, not Italian in 1940. :lol: :lol:

It was occupied by the Germans in November 1942 in
response to the US and British invasion of French North Africa
Wrong again, poor boy. In 1881 Tunisia went bankrupt. At the Congress of Berlin Tunisia became a protectorate under French control but settled by Italians. European settlements in the country were actively encouraged; the number of French colonists grew from 34,000 in 1906 to 144,000 in 1945, however in 1910 there were 105,000 Italians already in Tunisia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Tunisians" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In those years, the Italian community was the main European community in the French Protectorate: Sicilians made up 72.5% of the community's population, while 16.3% were from central Italy (mainly Jews from Tuscany), 3.8% from Sardinia and only 2.5% from northern Italy.......Membership in the Fascist Party is all but compulsory for every Italian male in Tunisia, and refusing to join means virtual banishment.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Gord » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:37 am

David wrote:
Gord wrote: Your understanding of Dieppe seems to be very different from mine.

Gord- No, my understand is the same as "history's" you just seem
confused about the meaning of the words, "catastrophe" and "fiasco".
No, make that, "Dieppe was a pathetic failure." Do you read the stuff
you post?
Of course I read it. Did you? I didn't see Churchill mentioned much, if at all. I'm not trying to defend the person you hate, I'm saying other people were in charge.

http://www.personaldigital.ca/rem_day/d ... pe-5a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many veterans insisted for years the town's German garrison had been warned of the raid in advance -- either by spies or, according to one theory, a deliberate leak by British Intelligence.

Others blamed High Command for the outright bungling that marred the raid almost from the moment it set out from Britain.

Admiral Lord Mountbatten, the overall commander for the raid, has been accused by some historians of pushing the raid forward against advice of other senior officers, to further his career.

And just last week, Cliff Chadderton, an outspoken veteran and head of the War Amps organization, issued an hour-long video about Dieppe, entitled Dieppe: Don't Call It A Failure.

He argued the raid was a valuable learning process for D-Day, the invasion of France that came almost two years later.

"There has been no end of conspiracy theories about Dieppe," says Jack Granatstein, a Canadian historian. "A lot of the veterans get very angry; they blame the British for what happened, or they blame Mountbatten."

"But in the end, much of the blame has to go to Canadians: The Canadian government and Canadian generals pushed for this raid."
Blaming Mountbatten, that I've heard of before. Blaming High Command, heard of that too. But blaming Churchill? Nope.

http://www.personaldigital.ca/rem_day/d ... pe-1a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first point that must be made is that the Canadian high command, not the British, had pressed strongly for the Canadian army to have the lead role in the raid. Lieutenant-General Harry Crerar, acting commander of the Canadian Corps in England in the winter of 1942, had learned of the raid and insisted that his men get the job. The Canadians were bored and needed to see action, Crerar believed. Moreover, he said, public opinion in Canada was restless, and it would be a disaster if the Americans, in the war for only a few months, saw action before the Canadians, some of whom had been in the United Kingdom since December, 1939. Crerar was right in his assessment, and he made the case strongly and well enough that he persuaded the British to select the 2nd Canadian Division. The blame, if blame there is, rests on a Canadian commander, not the British.
These websites I'm linking to are Canadian. It's part of our history, and important to us as such. Your rewriting of our history is just plain incorrect, I'm sorry.

And in conclusion, http://archives.cbc.ca/war_conflict/sec ... 359-13816/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:34 pm

Hello Gord-

"it seems obvious that Jubilee was a bizarre operation with no chance of success whatsoever and likely to result in a huge number of casualties."
(a quote from your cite)

The fact that the Canadians were stupid enough to ASK to get in rubber boats
and float over to the Germans does not make the man in charge less stupid.

Churchill needed willing "colonials" who could be expended on Churchill's hairbrain
"generalling" without effecting voters in England.

By the way, I don't hate Churchill. I actually get a kick out of him.
But that does not mean that I am willing to overlook his many, many
mistakes

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:48 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: On 25 June 1940 280,000 Italian troops moved from Tunisia ( the port next to the Vichy Fleet and entered Cyrenaica to start the western desert campaign.[/color]
and
Matthew Ellard wrote:
however in 1910 there were 105,000 Italians already in Tunisia
My, Matthew, you tapdance so badly! :lol: :lol:
Your "Africa Korp" tale becomes 280,000 Italian troops
which becomes 105,000 Italian settlors...all living in
the "Port next to the Vichy Fleet."

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:54 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
Are American's war criminals for doing the same as Churchill in fighting Vichy troops?

Why are you ignoring the German destruction of the Italian fleet? Didn't Germany kill 1860 Italian "allies" when they sank the Italian Fleet? Is that OK in your mind because they were Nazis? You really like the Nazi's don't you? Bad luck, they aren't coming back.
Hello Matthew- No, we Americans were overwhelming welcomed by
the French. And we had not been allies with the French just prior to
attacking them.

As to the Nazis sinking the Italian Fleet....I agree that it was the same
as the British turning on THEIR ally....In pari delicto

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:34 pm

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: On 25 June 1940 280,000 Italian troops moved from Tunisia ( the port next to the Vichy Fleet and entered Cyrenaica to start the western desert campaign.[/color]
and
Matthew Ellard wrote:
however in 1910 there were 105,000 Italians already in Tunisia
My, Matthew, you tapdance so badly! :lol: :lol:
Your "Africa Korp" tale becomes 280,000 Italian troops
which becomes 105,000 Italian settlors...all living in
the "Port next to the Vichy Fleet."
So you now admit that the Vichy Fleet was smack bang in the Axis supply line for the Western Desert Campaign. You are now aware that the Fleet was sunk after the Italian army mobilised 250,000 troops in the next port and started moving them to Cyrenaica where all the battles took place. You now understand that the Vichy fleet lay between British Gibraltar and its British troops in the Western Desert.

You now know that you lied four times in your previous posts and I have corrected you.




.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:52 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: So you now admit that the Vichy Fleet was smack bang in the Axis supply line for the Western Desert Campaign.
??? Churchill's attack on the French was totally unjustified.
It was a treacherous attack on sailors who had been allies just
weeks before.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:56 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote: Are American's war criminals for doing the same as Churchill in fighting Vichy troops? Why are you ignoring the German destruction of the Italian fleet? Didn't Germany kill 1860 Italian "allies" when they sank the Italian Fleet? Is that OK in your mind because they were Nazis? You really like the Nazi's don't you? Bad luck, they aren't coming back.
David wrote: Hello Matthew- No, we Americans were overwhelming welcomed by
the French.
You are lying yet again.
In the "Battle of Casblanca" fought off Algeria
1) Vichy coastal batteries opened up on American landing craft
2) American destroyers opened up on the coastal batteries.
3) 4 Vichy submarines attacked the American fleet
4) American ship bombers commenced bombing Casablanca
5) 7 ships from the Vichy fleet set out to engage the American fleet
6) German U-boats join the Vichy fleet in attacking the Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Battle_of_Casablanca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You are lying because you lie to make Winston Churchill look bad following guidance from COHOH. You knew very well that the Americans and Vichy had exactly the same battles as the British, but lie about this as it does not follow CODOH guidelines. You are a puppet.

David wrote: As to the Nazis sinking the Italian Fleet....I agree that it was the same
as the British turning on THEIR ally....In pari delicto
You are incorrect (as per usual).
1) The Germans gave no warning to the Italian fleet.
2) The Vichy Fleet was not Britain's former ally as the French government was still active in London.
(The battle is very well known as the Germans first used their guided missiles against the Italian ships)


You are too funny. You are making stuff up just to find ways of making Winston Churchill look bad but your complete lack of knowledge about history lets you down every time.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:00 am

David wrote:
Matthew Ellard wrote: So you now admit that the Vichy Fleet was smack bang in the Axis supply line for the Western Desert Campaign.
??? Churchill's attack on the French was totally unjustified.
It was a treacherous attack on sailors who had been allies just
weeks before.
Boy you are slow.....The French government, Britain's allies were in London. The Vichy French were not Britain's allies and fought with the Germans. Read in depth how the Vichy fleet and german U-boats atack the American fleet in the Battle for Casablanca.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:16 am

Gord wrote: Blaming Mountbatten, that I've heard of before. Blaming High Command, heard of that too. But blaming Churchill? Nope.
David is an American with little education. He hasn't heard of Mountbatten. CODOH doesn't pick on Mountbatten because he is German (real name Battenberg same as the queen). Also as David is a Nazi and can only imagine dictatorships he doesn't understand that Winston Churchill was only Prime Minister. Military decisions were made by Chief of Defence Staff, not the Prime Minister.

Hitler was a complete idiot who made himself head of German combined forces and then directed, in detail how to fight the war. Hitler was a corporal and had no officer training at all. He destroyed the German army in France, Russia and Italy. Churchill said in the House of Commons that Hitler was one of the best weapons the Allies had to win the war.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:05 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: David wrote: Hello Matthew- No, we Americans were overwhelming welcomed by
the French.

You are lying yet again.
In the "Battle of Casblanca" fought off Algeria
Matthew, you are such an ignorant liar...
in 1942 everyone loved America.

The only reason the French shot at the Americans is
that they thought that they were Canadians coming ashore
to launch bayonet charges.

The Arab troops did shoot their guns IN AIR in traditional welcome greeting,
hearing (with a bit of confusion) that Americans would "walk a mile
for a camel."
Some dishonest Believers (trying to sew discord) exaggerated
that into the total BS you spew!

But, your nasty attempts to cause American/French/Arab
discord aside, the difference is that Churchill attacked
his own erstwhile ally...JUST like the Germans and
the Italian fleet.
Think the word treachery when you
think Churchill...but then think of the tears in his eyes
when he explained that he was "just standing up to Hitler"
as he murdered French sailors and get a chuckle from
the old master of propaganda.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:35 am

David wrote: Hello Matthew- No, we Americans were overwhelming welcomed by
the French.
Matthew Ellard wrote: You are lying yet again. In the "Battle of Casblanca" fought off Algeria......
David wrote: Matthew, you are such an ignorant liar...in 1942 everyone loved America. The only reason the French shot at the Americans is
that they thought that they were Canadians coming ashore to launch bayonet charges.
In American battleships flying the American flag that sent them warnings from the American Secretary of State? yeah....right....David....
David wrote: Some dishonest Believers (trying to sew discord) exaggerated
that into the total BS you spew!
About Canadians making bayonet charges from American ships over water
David wrote: But, your nasty attempts to cause American/French/Arab
discord aside,
Arabs? Who mentioned Arabs? Are you on LSD?
David wrote: the difference is that Churchill attacked his own erstwhile ally...JUST like the Germans and the Italian fleet.
1) The Vichy were not Britain's allies. Italy was a member of the Axis with Germany
2) The British sent a warning and offer to the Vichy fleet to sail away from the North African supply lines. Germany destroyed the Italian Fleet without warning.

David wrote: Think the word treachery when you think Churchill...but then think of the tears in his eyes when he explained that he was "just standing up to Hitler"
as he murdered French sailors and get a chuckle from the old master of propaganda.
You are drunk. I can tell. During the invasion of France Hitler killed
French 85,000(dead) 120,000(wounded) 940,000(POWs sent to Germany as labour)
British 68,000 (dead, wounded and captured)
Belgium 23,000 (dead wounded or captured)
German 44,000 (dead) 120,000 (wounded)

You are a Nazi puppet, фекалии на моей обуви, the lowest of the low.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:38 pm

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote: the difference is that Churchill attacked his own erstwhile ally...JUST like the Germans and the Italian fleet.
1) The Vichy were not Britain's allies. Italy was a member of the Axis with Germany
2) The British sent a warning and offer to the Vichy fleet to sail away from the North African supply lines. Germany destroyed the Italian Fleet without warning.



You are a Nazi puppet, фекалии на моей обуви, the lowest of the low. [/color]
Matthew- Sigh...
1. The official ally of the British was the "Third Republic." It did not end nor the Vichy government form until July 10, 1940...a week after Churchill's sneak attack. Looks like that gambit blew up in your face. Churchill's attack probably made
things worse for moderate French. (as Admiral Somerville had said)
2. Churchill had a long ultimatum in English presented to the French fleet
which was a major policy challenge to the still legal and allied government of France.
The official British record makes a big point of the British officer who delivered
the Ultimatum being able to speak French
. That is because the Ultimatum was
in English....leaving Admiral Gensou to translate and transmit it all to France.
As even the British propagandists admit, the terms never made it completely to the French government prior to Churchill's order for an immediate attack.
Some "notice"!

3. The French had stated that they were NOT going to turn their ships
over to the Germans and (for whatever it was worth) the Germans agreed.
The validity of the French position was latter confirmed when they scuttled
the Toulon fleet.
4. The British surprised the French fleet at anchor and without their boilers
fired up. The French never attempted to prepare for battle prior to the attack.
The French were at a supreme disadvantage from the surprise British treachery.
5. In fact, negotiations were starting when Churchill got impatient and ordered
the immediate and unnecessary attack.
As I pointed out Admiral Sir James Somerville was appalled by
Churchill's murderous antics and was bold enough to comment.
The vindictive Churchill tried to get Somerville courtmartialled.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/pe ... james.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To compare Churchill's treacherous attack on the French with the
German attack on the Italians.

1. The Italian fleet was underway and ready for battle.
2. It was already heading to turn itself over to the British
3. The Italians OPENED Fire on the German aircraft first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Bergamini_" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Matthew, your trouble is that you are a Believer fanatic.
I am sure that you once dominated conversations at bars and
cocktail parties with your above average knowledge of history
(and loud assertions).
You think you can lie and distort the truth to your own brand of
hatred and bigotry. Unfortunately for you, you have met someone
who continually blows up your stridently asserted claims
with accurate information and verifiable facts. (Thank you
internet!)

The simple fact is that everybody does bad or stupid things
during war.
Which is a good reason to avoid war.
People like you with your extreme and self-righteous views are bad
news for normal people.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:41 am

David wrote: Matthew- Sigh...
1. The official ally of the British was the "Third Republic." It did not end nor the Vichy government form until July 10, 1940...a week after Churchill's sneak attack. Looks like that gambit blew up in your face. Churchill's attack probably made
things worse for moderate French. (as Admiral Somerville had said)
Wrong again!
Paul Reynaud , the French President refuses to surrender to the Germans and resigns on the 16th of June.
Petain becomes President and asks the Germans for terms of surrender on 17th June. Germany demands that France is divided into two, a German occupied area and a demilitarized French area nicknamed "Vichy" after the city that would become the demilitarized zones . Petain agrees and signs these armistice terms with the Germans and has Reynaud arrested on the 22nd of June.
The terms of the Vichy government were negotiated prior to 22nd of June.
The British sink the Vichy Fleet on 3 July 1940.
Petain calls the Chamber of Deputies and Senate, of the Vichy government on 10 July to ratify the armistice in Vichy. The real French government was either already arrested like Reynaud or in Britain.

David wrote: The French had stated that they were NOT going to turn their ships
over to the Germans and (for whatever it was worth) the Germans agreed.
Wrong again. Admiral Darlan, a traitor, said he would not let the French fleet join the Free French forces in England. The French government was in London.
David wrote: The British surprised the French fleet at anchor and without their boilers fired up. The French never attempted to prepare for battle prior to the attack.
The French were at a supreme disadvantage from the surprise British treachery.
You are lying again, not only were the boilers going to keep the generators going ( The Strasbourg and five other ships sailed out out the battle remember) but the French battleships replied in full. You made up this "fact"
David wrote: Matthew, your trouble is that you are a Believer fanatic.
Crap. I use facts. You make them up.
David wrote: I am sure that you once dominated conversations at bars and
cocktail parties with your above average knowledge of history
(and loud assertions).
I'm sure you looked stunning in your KKK white robes telling people how "niggers" and "kikes" were ruining your life before burning a couple crosses.
David wrote: You think you can lie and distort the truth to your own brand of
hatred and bigotry. Unfortunately for you, you have met someone
who continually blows up your stridently asserted claims with accurate information and verifiable facts.
[/quote]
David, You have lied eight times so far in this post alone starting with "a suprise attack" In the previous post you said that the boilers were not fired up while quite aware that six ships sailed out, however you lied yet again because that is how holocaust deniers think because they are nutty and want to revise history to support Nazi ideology.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:33 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
David wrote: Matthew- Sigh...
1. The official ally of the British was the "Third Republic." It did not end nor the Vichy government form until July 10, 1940...a week after Churchill's sneak attack. Looks like that gambit blew up in your face. Churchill's attack probably made
things worse for moderate French. (as Admiral Somerville had said)
Wrong again!
Paul Reynaud , the French President refuses to surrender to the Germans and resigns on the 16th of June.
Petain becomes President and asks the Germans for terms of surrender on 17th June. Germany demands that France is divided into two, a German occupied area and a demilitarized French area nicknamed "Vichy" after the city that would become the demilitarized zones . Petain agrees and signs these armistice terms with the Germans and has Reynaud arrested on the 22nd of June.
The terms of the Vichy government were negotiated prior to 22nd of June.
The British sink the Vichy Fleet on 3 July 1940.
Petain calls the Chamber of Deputies and Senate, of the Vichy government on 10 July to ratify the armistice in Vichy. The real French government was either already arrested like Reynaud or in Britain.


You have a unique and dishonest view of history,
Matthew, as quick as Churchill to twist facts. Historians mark the
end of the Third Republic on July 10. Of course, you ignore the facts and the
obvious truth that the sailors murdered by the British were the same
sailors-in-arms as whatever date you pull out of your...hat as the end of the
Third Republic

David wrote: The French had stated that they were NOT going to turn their ships
over to the Germans and (for whatever it was worth) the Germans agreed.
Wrong again. Admiral Darlan, a traitor, said he would not let the French fleet join the Free French forces in England. The French government was in London.

You are caught again. :twisted: :twisted:
Churchill's "excuse" for the attack was that Hitler was going to
seize the fleet. You are also caught lying that the "French government
was in London. Arguing with you is like shooting fish in a barrel,
matthew. Please try to be honest. Have to go but noticed that
you have caved in with your ridiculous attempts to avoid equating
Churchill's attack on his ally with Hitler. In pari delicto and your
babbling about "the Africa Korp 'supply line'."

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:03 am

Holocaust Denial exist to serve as justification for the next world war.

End of story.
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:33 am

rrichar911 wrote:Holocaust Denial exist to serve as justification for the next world war.

End of story.
Hello Richard- Holocaust Denial is just part of the
idea that governments produce propaganda to
justify wars and inflame their populations.
Look at Matthew trying to justify the murder of French
sailors in this thread with absurd claims that the
government of France had moved to London....gadjuks!
To any honest person, the murder of 1,200 men is
a bad thing.

"Denial" is anti-war.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:38 am

David wrote: You have a unique and dishonest view of history,
Matthew, as quick as Churchill to twist facts. Historians mark the
end of the Third Republic on July 10.
The terms of the armistice were negotiated before the 22nd of June. Petain signed them on the 22nd of June. He announces the end of the free French government publicly, in the new Vichy occupation capital on 10th July, to the remaining members not arrested by the Germans. The Vichy fleet was sunk AFTER Petain signed the terms of surrender by Petain. (You can't get aound that can you?)
David wrote: Of course, you ignore the facts
David wrote: "It was a suprise attack"
( Wrong)
David wrote: "Only 15 minutes warning was given"
(Wrong)
David wrote: "The French ships had not fired up their boilers"
(Wrong)
David wrote: "The French always welcomed Americans"
(Wrong)
You are too funny. You lied on purpose in your opening post and kept lying from then on. I am the person supplying facts.
David wrote: The French had stated that they were NOT going to turn their ships
over to the Germans and (for whatever it was worth) the Germans agreed.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Wrong again. Admiral Darlan, a traitor, said he would not let the French fleet join the Free French forces in England. The French government was in London.
David wrote: You are caught again. :twisted: :twisted:
Churchill's "excuse" for the attack was that Hitler was going to
seize the fleet. You are also caught lying that the "French government
was in London.
On 17th of June Raynaud gave minister, Charles De Gaulle, the French liquid national reserves to take to London to maintain the government and De Gaulle leads the French government in London from 22 June 1940 under the terms of the British / French alliance. Petain's Vichy government fled to Germany after the Normandy Invasion. De Gaulle becomes president of France in London in 1944. You are a Nazi who only recognises the Nazi Petain government that fled to Germany.
David wrote: Arguing with you is like shooting fish in a barrel,
matthew. Please try to be honest.
David wrote: "It was a suprise attack"
( Wrong)
David wrote: "Only 15 minutes warning was given"
(Wrong)
David wrote: "The French ships had not fired up their boilers"
(Wrong)
David wrote: "The French always welcomed Americans"
(Wrong)
Are these examples of holocaust denier's honesty? Give me a break.
David wrote: ave to go but noticed that you have caved in with your ridiculous attempts to avoid equating Churchill's attack on his ally with Hitler. In pari delicto and your babbling about "the Africa Korp 'supply line'."
1) Churchill's name does not appear on the Admiralty orders I have linked you to and you keep saying Churchill gave the order because you are lying again
2) Churchill and the Americans at the Battle of Casablanca fought Vichy troops. Neither of them were allies with the Vichy. Italy was an Axis ally of Germany.
3) I have given you the dates the Italian moved 250,000 troops from Tripoli to Cyrenaica BEFORE the British cleared the Vichy fleet from the next port to secure supply line to the Western desert campaign. I have shown you a map of the supply route from Gibraltar to Cyrenaica with the Vichy fleet in the middle. You chose not to look at these as they did not support your most recent lie.


Give up. Go burn some crosses or something

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: David wrote: You have a unique and dishonest view of history,
Matthew, as quick as Churchill to twist facts. Historians mark the
end of the Third Republic on July 10.



The terms of the armistice were negotiated before the 22nd of June. Petain signed them on the 22nd of June. He announces the end of the free French government publicly, in the new Vichy occupation capital on 10th July, to the remaining members not arrested by the Germans. The Vichy fleet was sunk AFTER Petain signed the terms of surrender by Petain. (You can't get aound that can you?)

What is there to get around? You are making the
absurd claim that the Armistice ended the Third Republic. A lie.
July 3 was Churchill's attack.
July 10th was the end of Britain's ally, the Third Republic. Your lying and
tapdancing can change the fact that Churchill ordered an attack on
sailors who were his own allies.


David wrote: Of course, you ignore the facts


David wrote: "It was a suprise attack"

( Wrong)

David wrote: "Only 15 minutes warning was given"

(Wrong)

David wrote: "The French ships had not fired up their boilers"

(Wrong)

Unfortunately for you, the whole event was
filmed by people on shore. The shells are landing around the
stationary French ships. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There can be no doubt that it was a sneak attack. Even many of
the British were stunned by the treacherous attack, "As Captain Holland was leaving the DUNQUERQUE he saluted the French tricolor smartly with tears in his eyes. As he boarded the boat for his return to the FOXHOUND he heard the call to battle stations sound over the fleet’s speakers. He said later that he couldn’t believe all this was happening. He hadn’t even reached the HOOD ten miles offshore when Force H opened fire.
Anyway, matthew, you are no more than a dirty smear monkey who
doesn't have the decency to regret the murder of 1290 brave French
sailors and but does have the brazen dishonesty to lie like a rug to "justify" an unnecessary attack. The film shows what happened.

It is worth noting that fanatic liars who are incapable of admitting
the slightest mistake on the part of "their own side" are a menace to normal
people



David wrote: "The French always welcomed Americans"

(Wrong)
You are too funny. You lied on purpose in your opening post and kept lying from then on. I am the person supplying facts.
Given the absurdity of your claim that the American
conflict with the French was anyway equivalent to Churchill's
unnecessary murderous treachery at Mer-el-kebir a comment on French/American
relations was not inappropriate. I made the mistake of letting your
irrelevant diversions make me laugh in disgust.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:26 am

David wrote:
rrichar911 wrote:Holocaust Denial exist to serve as justification for the next world war.

End of story.
Hello Richard- Holocaust Denial is just part of the
idea that governments produce propaganda to
justify wars and inflame their populations.
Look at Matthew trying to justify the murder of French
sailors in this thread with absurd claims that the
government of France had moved to London....gadjuks!
To any honest person, the murder of 1,200 men is
a bad thing.

"Denial" is anti-war.
What war did manufacturing a holocaust justify? We needed more justification than the fact that Hitler invaded all his neighbors to beat him over the head?

Even if the holocaust didn't exist, justification ala bookos still exist.

If Ack I'm a Jerk were not a holocaust denier, the fact that he openly states the we need a holocaust, and he intends to wipe Israel off the map, kill every Jew in the world, is enough justification to stop him, all by itself. But the reason he is a holocaust denier is to help him convince people that Jews are the spawn of Satan, no good bald faced liars, and thus should be wiped off the map.

He is drumming up justification for war, a reason to hate Jews.

"If all the Jews in the world would move to Israel, it would save us the trouble of hunting them down world wide" Shek Nazrallah. or as I like to call him, Shek Nose hair.
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by rrichar911 » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:40 am

Your defending the Vichy French but they were nothing but puppets of Hitler.
Pétain and the Vichy regime willfully collaborated with the German occupation to a high degree. The French police and the state Milice (militia) organised raids to capture Jews and others considered "undesirables" by the Germans in both the northern and southern zones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They captured all these Jews , turned them over to the Germans, for this holocaust that never happened.
On 20 August 1944, Vichy's officials and supporters moved (under German escort) to Sigmaringen in Germany and there established a government in exile, headed by Fernand de Brinon, until April 1945. Many of the Vichy regime's prominent figures were subsequently tried by the GPRF and a number were executed. Pétain himself was sentenced to death for treason, but his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.
Kill as many Vichy French as you please, they were traitors.

Didn't they fly the yellow flag?

You know if Hitler's thugs had told me I had to go round up Jews and turn them over to Hitler, I would be trying to kill the thugs. I sure would not be doing like George Soros did, and raid their houses for loot after they had been hauled off on the trains, and call it the best year of my life.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:10 pm

rrichar911 wrote:Your defending the Vichy French but they were nothing but puppets of Hitler.
Hello Richar911-
I am not defending the Vichy French. I am commenting on
Churchill's attack on French sailors in the final days of the Third Republic.

The attack was unnecessary, treacherous, and shocked the French.
If you think about it, the betrayal by the British probably helped
establish the Vichy government and made many people think that
the British were not much better than the Germans.
at least for a time.

Rather than think about the facts,
we have Believer fanatics dreaming up stupid excuses or justifications.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:20 pm

You are really losing the plot.
David wrote: Your lying and tapdancing can change the fact that Churchill ordered an attack on sailors who were his own allies.
You are lying again. I have linked you to a copy of the actual orders. They come from Admiralty. Churchill's name does not appear on the orders. You know this but you continue this lie per CODOH guidelines..
David wrote: Unfortunately for you, the whole event was
filmed by people on shore. The shells are landing around the
stationary French ships. " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You are lying again. Not only does this footage show the French firing back but the narrator names the ships leaving the harbour as they appear on screen. Remember your more recent lie that none of the ships had steam up and I had to inform you that six ships left the harbour? ( you can't remember your lies anymore can you?)
David wrote: There can be no doubt that it was a sneak attack.

You are lying again. I have shown you the actual log of Holland, the communications he had with the French, the exchange of letters and direct radio communications. You have now reverted to "It was a sneak attack" as you are lying again.
David wrote: Anyway, matthew, you are no more than a dirty smear monkey who
doesn't have the decency to regret the murder of 1290 brave French
sailors and but does have the brazen dishonesty to lie like a rug to "justify" an unnecessary attack. The film shows what happened.
The film does show what happened. It shows the Vichy fleet firing back and five ships leaving to engage the British fleet by closing range as their boilers were all fired up. You said that none of the French ships had their boilers fired up yet in the documentary every ship has a full head of steam coming out of their funnels. You lied on purpose again
David wrote: It is worth noting that fanatic liars who are incapable of admitting
the slightest mistake on the part of "their own side" are a menace to normal
people
You are a pro Nazi holocaust denier who has lied eleven times in this one thread.
David wrote: Given the absurdity of your claim that the American
conflict with the French was anyway equivalent to Churchill's
unnecessary murderous treachery at Mer-el-kebir a comment on French/American
relations was not inappropriate. I made the mistake of letting your
irrelevant diversions make me laugh in disgust.
In other words you have no rebuttal argument? The Americans battle the Vichy fleet at the Battle of Casablanca exactly in the same way as the British. It is that simple. Petain the head of the Vichy government is condemmed to death as a traitor after the war. It is that simple. German U-boats worked with the Vichy fleet in both cases. It is that simple. You are a pro-Nazi holocaust deniers lying about history to promote your idol Adolf Hitler. It is that simple.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:26 pm

David wrote: Hello Richar911-
I am not defending the Vichy French. I am commenting on
Churchill's attack on French sailors in the final days of the Third Republic.
You are lying again. Petain signed an already negotiated armistice before the attack and the Third Republic was "ended" in Vichy after Reynaud and other ministers were arrested by the Germans. Because you are a Nazi you only recognise the Nazi puppet government of Petain.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:30 pm

rrichar911 wrote: Kill as many Vichy French as you please, they were traitors.
Agreed. However, give them an offer to join the Free French. If they refuse then kill em.

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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by David » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:02 am

Matthew Ellard wrote: David wrote: Your lying and tapdancing can change the fact that Churchill ordered an attack on sailors who were his own allies.


You are lying again. I have linked you to a copy of the actual orders. They come from Admiralty. Churchill's name does not appear on the orders.
Churchill was the Prime Minister. He admits it was
"His Majesty's government" that ordered the attack. Try some other
excuse that isn't so stupid.
Matthew Ellard wrote: Anyway, matthew, you are no more than a dirty smear monkey who doesn't have the decency to regret the murder of 1290 brave French
sailors and but does have the brazen dishonesty to lie like a rug to "justify" an unnecessary attack. The film shows what happened.



The film does show what happened. It shows the Vichy fleet firing back and five ships leaving to engage the British fleet by closing range as their boilers were all fired up.
Try another lie. The British open a murderous fire. After receiving several
volleys which sank or damaged the battleships, the French finally returned fire. More importantly, the French shore batteries engaged the British causing the British to retreat.
That is the time when several French destroyers escaped.
You are an absurd moron to claim that they were "attacking" the British
the British. For his part, Admiral Somerville later commented that the action at Mers-el-Kebir was “the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us…we all feel thoroughly ashamed…” In a letter to his wife he predicted (correctly) that he would be criticized for having let the STRASBOURG escape, and wrote that, “In fact, I shouldn’t be surprised if I was relieved forthwith. I don’t mind because it was an absolutely bloody business…The truth is my heart wasn’t in it.”

Matthew- You have had all your stupid dishonest "theories" blow
up in your face. Like any Believer you retreat to the last refuge of
a Believer...smears and insults.
You come up with stupid arguments that the French were NOT
the French...guess what? even Churchill admitted that the victims of
his attack were French.
As he says in his speech, " The French ships...fought in the characteristic
courage of the French navy.
Gensoul was a brave officer who even Churchill had to praise in July
4th speech.

Churchill at least had the sense to pretend to be sorry for tuning on
his allies. He had far more decency than you do.

Matthew Ellard
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by Matthew Ellard » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:53 am

Matthew wrote: You are lying again. I have linked you to a copy of the actual orders. They come from Admiralty. Churchill's name does not appear on the orders.
David wrote: Churchill was the Prime Minister. He admits it was
"His Majesty's government" that ordered the attack. Try some other
excuse that isn't so stupid.
You idiot! The entire cabinet, permanent public service and House of Lords is his Majesty's government. You only say Churchill name although Churchill's name does not appear on the orders from Admiralty. Cunningham was First Sea Lord not Churchill.
Matthew Ellard wrote: The film shows what happened.
David wrote: Try another lie. The British open a murderous fire. After receiving several volleys which sank or damaged the battleships, the French finally returned fire. More importantly, the French shore batteries engaged the British causing the British to retreat. That is the time when several French destroyers escaped.
You forgot your previous lie.
David wrote: "The French ships had not fired up their boilers"
Are you suggesting they rowed out of the harbour or did you simply lie before? Which is it this time David?
David wrote: You are an absurd moron to claim that they were "attacking" the British
The video you linked shows the Dunkerque firing its main guns at the British. The Narrators says "The Dunkerque replies" in French, while this is on screen. Hoists to the magazine use generators from the boilers which were obviously fired up. It takes 4 hours from cold start to achieve steam on a fast battleship like the Dunkerque. There is steam coming out of the Dunkerque's funnels.
David wrote: Matthew- You have had all your stupid dishonest "theories" blow
up in your face.
Are you drunk again? You haven't made a dent in anything I said. So far you have lied 13 times and you can't remember your previous lies.
David wrote: You come up with stupid arguments that the French were NOT
the French...guess what? even Churchill admitted that the victims of
his attack were French.
The 28th SS French grenadier division had French in it. They were Nazis and French. The Vichy French were Vichy pro-Nazi French. Petain was also French when he was sentenced to death as a Vichy traitor. You really don't get it do you?

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rrichar911
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Re: Churchill / Holocaust Denial / Wartime propaganda

Post by rrichar911 » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:05 am

I don't know that all the details matter. What is really important is what is going on now.

Israel is the center of events. Holocaust deniers are helping radical Islam justify their desire to exterminate Israel. They are setting the stage for war. This war will make WW2 look like a walk in the park.

As Mathew Ellard is discovering, or probably already knew, the world is becoming filled with people to who reality does not matter. For others it does matter, and the clash is going to be between the two. Between reality and fiction, truth and lies.

War is a consequence of conflicting beliefs and thus perceived interests.

David states that he is anti war, and holocaust denial is to prevent war, even though it turns the world against Jews which leads to war. It also makes people like Eisenhower and Churchill participants in massive fraud. i.e. two of the main players in WW2 who helped insure several decades of freedom in the world.

People who endeavor to fight on the side of freedom for man kind, are not going to be with out mistakes. They are not perfect, and we should not expect them to be, as they are men.

People who documented the holocaust probably made some mistakes.

But what cannot be shoved under the rug is the fact that they fought on the right side for the right things. Hitler was a maniac, and had to be stopped, and these are the men and generation who did it. I am willing to cut them all the slack they need. For if they had not done it, we would have been living under Hitler's rule, under his version of history, and his values.

Nit picking at the details is to belittle all that they sacrificed and accomplished and to spit on what they fought for.

It is all to easy to sit on the side lines and criticize the people who are getting the job done.
What really intrest me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the universe ~ Albert Einstein