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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:30 am

Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. A war which was generally condemned by Republicans because it wasn't their party promoting it. The Vietnam war would easily qualify.

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:16 am

montgomery wrote:
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. A war which was generally condemned by Republicans because it wasn't their party promoting it. The Vietnam war would easily qualify.
:confused: Can you list a few of these invented "genocides"... The closest with regard to the Kosovo war was the Bosnian genocide, otherwise it was Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians - which no head of state called genocide that IK of.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:17 pm

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. A war which was generally condemned by Republicans because it wasn't their party promoting it. The Vietnam war would easily qualify.
:confused: Can you list a few of these invented "genocides"... The closest with regard to the Kosovo war was the Bosnian genocide, otherwise it was Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians - which no head of state called genocide that IK of.
You need to expand your horizons. If you haven't heard an American refer to any of America's wars then that doesn't mean that some of those wars didn't qualify as genocides. I've already given you the example of the Vietnam war that qualifies as genocidal in all respects. (except racial)

Do you have any examples of genocides that can be compared to Vietnam in it's effectiveness and it's brutality?
Dictionary.com
genocide
[jen-uh-sahyd]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for genocide on Thesaurus.com
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:52 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Classification Symbolization Discrimination Dehumanization Organization Polarization Preparation Persecution Extermination
... and finally the 10th stage:
Denial
True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. A war which was generally condemned by Republicans because it wasn't their party promoting it. The Vietnam war would easily qualify.
:confused: Can you list a few of these invented "genocides"... The closest with regard to the Kosovo war was the Bosnian genocide, otherwise it was Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians - which no head of state called genocide that IK of.
You need to expand your horizons. If you haven't heard an American refer to any of America's wars then that doesn't mean that some of those wars didn't qualify as genocides. I've already given you the example of the Vietnam war that qualifies as genocidal in all respects. (except racial)

Do you have any examples of genocides that can be compared to Vietnam in it's effectiveness and it's brutality?
Dictionary.com
genocide
[jen-uh-sahyd]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for genocide on Thesaurus.com
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Why would the Vietnam War qualify as genocidal?
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:57 pm

It answers to the definition in every way except racial. It need not answer to all.

Could it be argued that all of America's wars are attempts at genocide against a political group? If you have anything to say about that, you may want to say it in a more appropriate section of the forum?

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:06 pm

Yeah, he'd better not post it in here, or he will be ripped a new one. And you'd damn well better keep dodging his question.
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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:08 pm

montgomery wrote:It answers to the definition in every way except racial. It need not answer to all.

Could it be argued that all of America's wars are attempts at genocide against a political group? If you have anything to say about that, you may want to say it in a more appropriate section of the forum?
All of America’s wars? No. Wars are not inherently genocidal. The actions of the participants can make it genocidal.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:56 pm

I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:06 am

Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:00 am

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

You're the sort of adversary I don't ever want to drive away!
Awe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me when I give a {!#%@}.

Was clear enough, you haven't listed any fake genocides and the examples you give have no such pretentions.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:22 am

You didn’t ask in the proper manner or at the proper time so we will have to try somehow to make it without his response.
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:12 pm

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

You're the sort of adversary I don't ever want to drive away!
Awe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me when I give a {!#%@}.

Was clear enough, you haven't listed any fake genocides and the examples you give have no such pretentions.
If you're really interested in fake genocides you'll have to find your own. I'm not really sure how anybody could fake a genocide.

I could give you the 'massacre at Racak as the promotion of the theory that a genocide was about to begin.

Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:14 pm

The laughs keep coming.
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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:19 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

You're the sort of adversary I don't ever want to drive away!
Awe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me when I give a {!#%@}.

Was clear enough, you haven't listed any fake genocides and the examples you give have no such pretentions.
If you're really interested in fake genocides you'll have to find your own. I'm not really sure how anybody could fake a genocide.

I could give you the 'massacre at Racak as the promotion of the theory that a genocide was about to begin.

Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
Lol Are you serious??? You explicitly claimed you had an example:

« True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. »

Which was Kosovo, where no “genocide” was charged to have happened. Now you have back peddled to “idk how anyone would pull it off”. No state has ever pulled of faking genocides and the only attempt I know to pull it off is by Irish America, a charge that the Irish state and nationalists disregard.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:19 pm

Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

You're the sort of adversary I don't ever want to drive away!
Awe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me when I give a {!#%@}.

Was clear enough, you haven't listed any fake genocides and the examples you give have no such pretentions.
If you're really interested in fake genocides you'll have to find your own. I'm not really sure how anybody could fake a genocide.

I could give you the 'massacre at Racak as the promotion of the theory that a genocide was about to begin.

Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
Lol Are you serious??? You explicitly claimed you had an example:

« True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. »

Which was Kosovo, where no “genocide” was charged to have happened. Now you have back peddled to “idk how anyone would pull it off”. No state has ever pulled of faking genocides and the only attempt I know to pull it off is by Irish America, a charge that the Irish state and nationalists disregard.
I think that if you read back over the comments you will find that it wasn't me who introduced the term 'fake genocide'.

I've given you the example of 'the massacre at Racak' as an example of the attempt to fabricate a threat of a coming genocide. And of course to justify a war on the pretense of ethnic cleansing, complete with imaginaary mass graves.

I would prefer to stay on topic in this section of the forum. If you wish to lead the discussion off-topice then start a new thread that suits your interests in that regard.

On this section of the forum, I invite you to discuss the issues as I've suggested on the Leuchter thread. They are 'facts' and 'impossibilities'. Can you add to our learning experience by doing that, by drawing from your extensive reading? I can but won't because it's not my place to do so. If you ask me why it's not my place, I'll tell you that I'm supposed to be the holocaust denier and that would lead to unfair suggestions by all of you. I suspect your motives!

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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:27 pm

montgomery wrote:
Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
I wouldn’t worry too much about that. For example when it strikes my fancy I’ll just post random {!#%@} like this:

“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:33 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:I think he avoided my first question completely, which was what “invented” genocides was he referring to???

We didn’t justify Vietnam on the pretentious of a genocide. Closest thing to this even happening there is the Cambodian case for which there is disagreement of the classification which happened during the Vietnam war not before. And then he avoided the Kosovo issue... instead opting not to prove his claim.
Screwing up one sentence is excusable but really, the whole post not making any sense? If you want to ask a question then try again. If you're polite and the question makes any sense, you'll get an answer.

You're the sort of adversary I don't ever want to drive away!
Awe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Tell me when I give a {!#%@}.

Was clear enough, you haven't listed any fake genocides and the examples you give have no such pretentions.
If you're really interested in fake genocides you'll have to find your own. I'm not really sure how anybody could fake a genocide.

I could give you the 'massacre at Racak as the promotion of the theory that a genocide was about to begin.

Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
Lol Are you serious??? You explicitly claimed you had an example:

« True for nearly all genuine genocides but not true when a state fabricates a genocide for the purpose of demonization and then to jusfify a war. The Kosovo war comes to mind. »

Which was Kosovo, where no “genocide” was charged to have happened. Now you have back peddled to “idk how anyone would pull it off”. No state has ever pulled of faking genocides and the only attempt I know to pull it off is by Irish America, a charge that the Irish state and nationalists disregard.
I think that if you read back over the comments you will find that it wasn't me who introduced the term 'fake genocide'.

I've given you the example of 'the massacre at Racak' as an example of the attempt to fabricate a threat of a coming genocide. And of course to justify a war on the pretense of ethnic cleansing, complete with imaginaary mass graves.

I would prefer to stay on topic in this section of the forum. If you wish to lead the discussion off-topice then start a new thread that suits your interests in that regard.

On this section of the forum, I invite you to discuss the issues as I've suggested on the Leuchter thread. They are 'facts' and 'impossibilities'. Can you add to our learning experience by doing that, by drawing from your extensive reading? I can but won't because it's not my place to do so. If you ask me why it's not my place, I'll tell you that I'm supposed to be the holocaust denier and that would lead to unfair suggestions by all of you. I suspect your motives!
:lol: :lol: Hmmm, so saying that “denial” is the final state of genocide is true until a “state FABRICATES” one is not saying “fake genocide”? Didn’t realize you would get lost pulling at straw.

As for the ethnic cleansing of Albanians - that’s all it was phrased as, and it wasn’t a faked event ether. If you can’t realize ethnic cleansing and Genocide are distinct, then I cannot help you.

Now the entire last paragraph of your reply, is completely, one of your own suggestions.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:36 pm

Deny-history- Start a new topic in the appropriate section if you're truly interested in that topic.
Last edited by montgomery on Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:37 pm

>Appropriate sections

If you couldn’t tell these don’t really exist here.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:46 pm

Denying-History wrote:>Appropriate sections

If you couldn’t tell these don’t really exist here.
Educate yourself for god sake. Google "Was the Kosovo war a genocide" and you'll find a long list of those suggesting it was. The issue is of course, it wasn't, and you will find an explanation of that too.

As I said, stop spamming this section with off-topic nonsense! Start the new thread!

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:47 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
I wouldn’t worry too much about that. ...
Jesus wept.
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:58 pm

montgomery wrote:
Denying-History wrote:>Appropriate sections

If you couldn’t tell these don’t really exist here.
Educate yourself for god sake. Google "Was the Kosovo war a genocide" and you'll find a long list of those suggesting it was. The issue is of course, it wasn't, and you will find an explanation of that too.

As I said, stop spamming this section with off-topic nonsense! Start the new thread!
:lol: :lol: I thought we moved away from this at your own behest? Why resurrect it?

>Deliberately search something out. Educate yourself.

1) You said the "State" was itself fabricating a genocide in Kosovo. It wasn't, the suggestions of a few journalists or authors post-crisis are irrelevant. Which nether the EU, NATO, or the US justified under pretenses of "Genocide". They justified intervention under a "break down" of "democracy", which itself is another topic.

2) This is deliberately searching out such people, which leads to false narratives. We both know one should search out the justifications proposed for the bombings to prove or disprove this thesis.

>stop spamming

If you didn't realize my last reply was there is no such thing on this forum.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:14 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Let's all be careful to not infringe on the rules of the forum by posting and talking about off-topic issues. I'm really not totally aware yet on how strictness of the rules. It just appears so far that the rules must be quite lax. I would encourage that by I'm not going to try to initiate the idea. Maybe we will hear from the mod on that?
I wouldn’t worry too much about that. ...
Jesus wept.
What, you don’t like weird Al?????

LOL
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:53 am

I’ve always liked the phrase “Jesus wept.”
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:09 am

I cadged it from Balmoral. :)
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve always liked the phrase “Jesus wept.”
As an atheist I've always found it quite meaningless. It strikes me as about as silly as the giraffe heads sticking out of the holes on Noah's ark! Does the reconstruction in Kentucky have the holes in the roof too or have they been deceitful about that detail? Maybe there's been a flyover to check it out?

Excuse me for wanting to join in on the playfulness. ;)

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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:26 pm

montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve always liked the phrase “Jesus wept.”
As an atheist I've always found it quite meaningless. It strikes me as about as silly as the giraffe heads sticking out of the holes on Noah's ark! Does the reconstruction in Kentucky have the holes in the roof too or have they been deceitful about that detail? Maybe there's been a flyover to check it out?

Excuse me for wanting to join in on the playfulness. ;)
I'd call myself an agnostic. I think that if a God exists he/she/it no longer gives a {!#%@}. If nothing else this being is looking at us, wondering what went wrong and thinking that dinosaurs weren't so bad after all.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:I’ve always liked the phrase “Jesus wept.”
As an atheist I've always found it quite meaningless. It strikes me as about as silly as the giraffe heads sticking out of the holes on Noah's ark! Does the reconstruction in Kentucky have the holes in the roof too or have they been deceitful about that detail? Maybe there's been a flyover to check it out?

Excuse me for wanting to join in on the playfulness. ;)
I'd call myself an agnostic. I think that if a God exists he/she/it no longer gives a {!#%@}. If nothing else this being is looking at us, wondering what went wrong and thinking that dinosaurs weren't so bad after all.
I get the 'agnostic' bit but choose to not dick around on the topic. But one can be an atheist as it relates to the
Christian god nonsense and not as it pertains to the 'other' possibilities. On that I back off to being an agnostic. I follow Dawkins closely and I think that if he was asked specifically, that's his position too.

Which leads me to asking you, have the others on this forum declared themselves to be Christians or atheists/agnostics, either way? I ask because I consider Christian believers to have a more dogmatic nature than others and that would go a ways to explaining some of their attitudes of not even being able to tolerate you and Nessis, for example, debating those who question.

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Re: Websites

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:46 pm

montgomery wrote:
Which leads me to asking you, have the others on this forum declared themselves to be Christians or atheists/agnostics, either way?
I don’t inquire and don’t particularly care.
“I noticed this morning that a group of our Landsberg friends have been given their freedom this morning. These include...Schubert, Jost and Nosske. Schubert confessed to...supervising the execution of about 800 Jews...(referring to the order to clean up Simferopol)...Schubert managed to kill all the Jews (by Christmas 1941). Nosske was the one the other defendants called the biggest bloodhound....
Noel, Noel, what the hell.”
Benjamin Ferencz in a letter to Telford Taylor, December 1951

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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:06 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Which leads me to asking you, have the others on this forum declared themselves to be Christians or atheists/agnostics, either way?
I don’t inquire and don’t particularly care.
O.k. If H.D'ers are most often Christians or Muslims then i wonder if it would follow that those who promote the holocaust the most would be atheists or agnostics. I would expect it would be the opposite. I think that skeptics would most often be atheists as it would be totally inconsistent of them to swallow the sky fairy nonsense.

However, it's true that some very bright people are Christians and there's a logical reason for that the the Christians don't like to hear. Children are imprinted with their Christian beliefs as children and many are not capalbe of ever letting it go. Much like a baby duckling can become imprinted on a fox as it's mother.

A Skeptic will wonder if this is a factor in being dogmatic on believing everything that is said on this board's topic. Even to the point of not even being able to discuss issues that have been long ago disproven. Fwiw, stat.mech. appears to be driven to extremes by some outside force?

And so my question on Christians/atheists. I don't think Islam applies to anybody on this board?

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:36 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Which leads me to asking you, have the others on this forum declared themselves to be Christians or atheists/agnostics, either way?
I don’t inquire and don’t particularly care.
not surprised this guy follows Dawkins, as he put it, a kind of religious formulation actually; I've stated my views on religion at some point, I feel sure . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Websites

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:37 pm

montgomery wrote:Fwiw, stat.mech. appears to be driven to extremes by some outside force?
Ibogaine.
montgomery wrote:And so my question on Christians/atheists. I don't think Islam applies to anybody on this board?
Yeah, that would exhaust all possibilities . . .
"It was still at the stage of clubs and fists, hurrah, tala"

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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:56 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Jeffk 1970 wrote:
montgomery wrote:
Which leads me to asking you, have the others on this forum declared themselves to be Christians or atheists/agnostics, either way?
I don’t inquire and don’t particularly care.
not surprised this guy follows Dawkins, as he put it, a kind of religious formulation actually; I've stated my views on religion at some point, I feel sure . . .
I absolutely do follow Dawkins and have read most of his books. His 'Selfish Gene' is still groundbreaking and up to date. And his writing from the agnostic POV is some of the best. Along with Hitchens!

I've never looked into whether or not he's expressed views on the holocaust but I will do. Judging by his standing as a skeptic on religion he could have said something. Although I would suspect that he would value his reputation too much to be completely open on the tabboo topics.

You obviously dislike Dawkins. Can you tell me why or do I have to guess?

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:44 pm

Lol Hitchens, reminds me of the time he claimed Wycliffe, Coverdale, and Tyndale were all burned alive on the cross for translating the Bible. Quick hint only one of them was.

Or the time he said the following in a review of “The Holocaust on Trial” by Guttenplan:
1) there were no gas chambers or extermination camps on German soil, in other words, at Belsen or Dachau or Buchenwald;

2) there were no Jews made into soap;

3) the "confession" of Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, was extracted by force and contains his claim to have killed more Jews than was "humanly" possible?
Which I’m sure most of us will understand only one of these statements are true, one simplifies the situation too much to the point it’s basically a lie, and one is for the most part completely false.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:36 pm

Denying-History wrote:Lol Hitchens, reminds me of the time he claimed Wycliffe, Coverdale, and Tyndale were all burned alive on the cross for translating the Bible. Quick hint only one of them was.

Or the time he said the following in a review of “The Holocaust on Trial” by Guttenplan:
1) there were no gas chambers or extermination camps on German soil, in other words, at Belsen or Dachau or Buchenwald;

2) there were no Jews made into soap;

3) the "confession" of Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, was extracted by force and contains his claim to have killed more Jews than was "humanly" possible?
Which I’m sure most of us will understand only one of these statements are true, one simplifies the situation too much to the point it’s basically a lie, and one is for the most part completely false.
Thank you for the reference. And especially the other on the three comments by Hitchens! This is exactly the sort of information I've been looking for, albeit in a from of denial of information presented by Hitchens, by you.

Links would make my research easier but they're not necessary unless you want to make your point on Hitchens' supposed errors.

In order of how they are listed by you: 1. true, 2. true, 3. true.
You didn't specify which you considered true or false or maybe?

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Re: Websites

Post by Denying-History » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:35 am

It should only take basic understanding of this event to find this out...

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse. ... &user=&pw=

Nore are these isolated errors ether.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:36 pm

From your link:
Hitchens must not have realised that, within a second world war
context, within a Third Reich context, "German soil" might mean
"Great Reich" and include Auschwitz.
Or Mauthausen. I am convinced
that he did not want to deny the Auschwitz gas chambers or the fact
that Auschwitz was (also) an extermination camp. Maybe Alan Jacob was
a little bit too harsh on him. Hitchens is not a Holocaus denier.
That which I've bolded is where it becomes a 'stretch', and especially when talking about Hitchens! I didn't read any further because I have so much homework already that I'm finding that to discount something that proves unreliable at first glance, is just not going to be included in what I have the time to read.

Can you make your point on the other two statements, in your own words?

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Re: Websites

Post by montgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:23 pm

Now that we've concluded the topic on the 'gassing of the insane', would anyone like to continue with the topic on Hitchens to clean it up too? I would suggest it's own new thread.