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Jeffk 1970
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:33 pm

Ian Hazard wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:19 pm
An excellent book which should be in every serious Holocaust researchers collection.


Image

https://www.waterstones.com/book/9781591481270
I stopped reading Holocaust Handbooks when I realized I had better things to do with my time.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:23 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:33 pm
Ian Hazard wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:19 pm
An excellent book which should be in every serious Holocaust researchers collection.


Image

https://www.waterstones.com/book/9781591481270
I stopped reading Holocaust Handbooks when I realized I had better things to do with my time.
HC gave a similar response:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... 9281707071
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:47 pm

The Antoniou & Moses collection on Greece is excellent. Have taken another detour, to Matthaüs' Predicting the Holocaust: Jewish Organizations from Geneva on the Emergence of the "Final Solution", which, like other books in the Documenting Life and Destruction: Holocaust Sources in Context series, has a valuable (so far!) introductory essay and a collection of documents. Picking up this book reminds me how wonderful the 13-book series is (I seem to have read 10 of the titles so far, one I've not read appears to be a selection from the 6 volumes on Jewish Responses, the other a collection on children in the Holocaust).

So far I've learned a lot, including that the crafty Jews who plotted the hoaxing of "6 million" were writing in 1939 about "2,000,000 Jews [who] will be annihilated in not less a cruel way" than 1m Armenians were and in 1942 of Hitler's plot that "THREEANDHALF TO FOUR MILLIONS" were to be "EXTERMINATED IN ORDER TO RESOLVE ONCE FOR ALL JEWISH QUESTION IN EUROPE." Ah, the canonical 6 million.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:36 am

Ordered the German Army and Genocide and Hitler’s Police Battalions.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:08 am

Alright, so, just to recap with new books:
The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and other Civilians in the East, 1939-1944
Hitler’s Police Battalions: Enforcing Racial War in the East
Documents on the Holocaust
The Operation Reinhard Camps, Revised and Expanded Edition: Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka
The Evacuation, Dismantling and Liberation of KL Auschwitz
Routlidge Library Edition: Nazi Germany and the Holocaust: the Policies of Genocide: Jews and Soviet Prisoners of War in Nazi Germany
I also got the Kindle version of A Specter Hainting Europe: the Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism.

Edited to correct a horrible spelling mistake.
Last edited by Jeffk 1970 on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:33 pm

now reading English translation published in late 2018 of Erno Munkácsi's 1947 book Hogyan történt?, on Holocaust in Hungary . . . it looks very interesting, Munkácsi was a successful Budapest attorney and prominent member of Budapest's Neolog community who served as secretary on the Judenrat during 1944
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm

After finishing Munkásci (almost done), I plan to read an article on one district in the General Gouvernement and then turn to Semelin, The Survival of the Jews in France 1940-44, which arrived yesterday. After that, finally, back to two more books on Croatia and three or four titles on Romania (one suggested by D-H months ago!).
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:37 pm

Reading got disrupted so I’m having to reset.

I was doing a re-read of Kershaw’s Hitler because I didn’t have anything new. I started glancing through Policies of Genocide: Jews and Soviet Prisoners of War in Nazi Germany last night. It’s relatively short so that may be next. OTOH while at the gym I started reading my Kindle version of A Specter Hainting Europe: the Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. It looks interesting.

So, trying to decide between the two. I’m home for the next couple of days so I’ll figure it out and get started.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:34 pm

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:49 pm
After finishing Munkásci (almost done), I plan to read an article on one district in the General Gouvernement and then turn to Semelin, The Survival of the Jews in France 1940-44, which arrived yesterday. After that, finally, back to two more books on Croatia and three or four titles on Romania (one suggested by D-H months ago!).
My reading list has been dead as of late, so take your time. We all do it.

Anyway got in a few books on the Congo under Leopold:

- King Leopold’s Ghost by Adam Hochschild

- The Congo State is Not a Slave State by Demetrius C. Boulger

- The Truth about the Congo: The Chicago Tribune Articles by Frederick Starr

- King Leopold's Congo and the "Scramble for Africa": A Short History with Documents by Michael A. Rutz

Also recently got my hands on:

- https://twitter.com/denying_history/sta ... 11969?s=21

And Im planning to order Jan Plampers
“The Stalin Cult: A Study in the Alchemy of Power”, as well as Timothy Snyder’s
“Sketches from a Secret War”.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:08 pm

Semelin's book is really good so far. It is built around the question how it was that 75% of French Jews survived.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:59 am

“Hitler’s Police Battalions” arrived today.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:36 pm

And I keep getting further behind. A whole bunch of books came in over the holidays and pushed Primo Levi's "Saved and Drowned" back a few days.

On a less serious note, I just read the second mystery in the Monkeewrench series by P.J. Tracy (pen name of a mother-daughter writing team, now continued by the daughter after her mother's death). This one, "Live Bait," from 2004, has a Holocaust theme. I won't spoil any of the mystery by saying any more than that, but it does delve into several issues, the main one being, What action is NOW called for in the light of the Holocaust? How do we deal with the still-lingering effects of that catastrophe on its victims, perpetrators, and bystanders?

Of course, I want to make my own knowledge of the Holocaust as complete as possible, and I would like the main facts to be universally known and recognized, for the very practical reason that I want people to recognize the early warning signs of a genocide. I don't think the Holocaust will ever be repeated in detail, and certain features will always be unique to it, such as isolating and scapegoating a portion of the population and declaring them enemies of the nation. But there are some ominous echoes of it among my neighbors, who refuse to believe that Muslims can be American citizens and will say that Muslims are always and everywhere enemies of the United States.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:11 pm

I am amused by the statements of Senator King paraphrased as "....we can't maintain our civilization by using other people's babies.........." not exact, but close enough to the point of: THAT IS exactly what civilization does...........unless you start requiring people to live in cultural ghettos. But .... raise people with liberty.....and they grow up thinking there is no other way. Whatelse does King think civilization means? ((Yes I know........code words.....but still.))

With the above as the premise, let me modify the proffered sentiment to make it accurate: "........devout Sharia adhering Muslims are always and everywhere enemies of the United States, as well as to other sects of Islam as well as less than absolute devout Sharias." Has nothing to do with Islam "per se" but rather any firmly held anti-democratic anti-Freedom belief system that has a goal to subject anyone who disagrees.........................................just ask them.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:31 pm

Why are you posting this in a section about books?
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Why are you posting about Donald Trump in the Holocaust forum???

I am responding to what Upton posted. Its like two dots........as close together as you can get. The "ideas" that books contain.

.............................what a concept???????
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:10 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Why are you posting about Donald Trump in the Holocaust forum???
Because we can.
I am responding to what Upton posted. Its like two dots........as close together as you can get. The "ideas" that books contain.
Then you should quote Upton’s statement and add what what you think is relevant. That would make more sense than randomly alluding to it.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

Deadspin, 2014:
https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:01 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:10 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Why are you posting about Donald Trump in the Holocaust forum???
Because we can.
There is a schism in your value system in that what you understand for yourself you challenge others to defend for themselves. Any different explanation?


Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:10 pm
bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:33 pm
I am responding to what Upton posted. Its like two dots........as close together as you can get. The "ideas" that books contain.
Then you should quote Upton’s statement and add what what you think is relevant. That would make more sense than randomly alluding to it.
The immediately following post is not random. Its immediately responsive: aka: just the opposite. I'm sure Upton sees it, and will respond or give honor to his other more valuable pursuits. Plus....I fear I am monopolizing his time...........gadfly that I am. I agree, pulling a quote can be quite helpful....................just checking. I see that I did put words in quote. So, .....................deleted.............you know: keeping everything friendly.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:32 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:01 pm

Why are you posting about Donald Trump in the Holocaust forum???


Because we can.

There is a schism in your value system in that what you understand for yourself you challenge others to defend for themselves. Any different explanation?
No. What I am saying is to make it easier for those who read your comment to quote the relevant parts of Upton’s statement and then addres them in your own words. It would also help if.....you....would stop....putting all...these moronic...dots between your sentences and words.


I am responding to what Upton posted.
Then quote the relevant parts of what Upton said and then give your thoughts on it. That’s what I’m saying to make it easier on those who read what you write.

The immediately following post is not random.
You commented on it a day after he made his statement. I could understand that if you made it right he made his statement but you made it the following day. This is why I say to quote Upton.
I will comment right after someone and not quote them. But any intervening comments cause logic problems so I will sometimes correct and quote so that it makes sense.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:39 pm

Jeff: you have a lot of rules. On another thread outside of the HoloCaustic Zone, Upton and others are discussing the collapse of time and space and the instant creation of reality.

All these forums are but a dream.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:03 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:39 pm
Jeff: you have a lot of rules.
Not rules but simple ways of making communication easier.
On another thread outside of the HoloCaustic Zone,
You know, that was clever. I like that, HoloCaustic Zone. Maybe I should suggest another name change.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:22 am

Denying-History wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:34 pm


- King Leopold’s Ghost by Adam Hochschild
This showed up in my Overdrive App, the one that links to my library. I put it on hold but I shoved it way down the road.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:45 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:08 am
Alright, so, just to recap with new books:
The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews and other Civilians in the East, 1939-1944
This came in today, it was not what I expected.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:05 am

Is it the book that was published as an accompaniment to the crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:25 am

Statistical Mechanic wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:05 am
Is it the book that was published as an accompaniment to the crimes of the Wehrmacht exhibition?
Yes, I realized that when I glanced through it. It looks interesting just not something I’d regularly buy.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:01 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:22 am
Denying-History wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:34 pm


- King Leopold’s Ghost by Adam Hochschild
This showed up in my Overdrive App, the one that links to my library. I put it on hold but I shoved it way down the road.

I cannot find many errors in it, but that’s probably due to my inexperience on the topic, though one Ik about is on page 238 where he claims the first census was taken in 1924 (it was really done in 1921). And his population figures seem too much. He claims the population declined by approximately half implying a population of around 20 million, which is probably too high.
Last edited by Denying-History on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:29 pm

Picked up a copy of “The Bombing of Auschwitz: Should the Allies Have Attempted it?” I also found a used copy of “Ordinary Men” with the new afterword.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:53 pm

I am now reading 1941 by Slavko Goldstein, a memoir-history of the year 1941 in Croatia, following the Ustasha takeover and creation of the NDH.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:36 pm

Goldstein's book is really a good read, wrapping the history (with a lot of attention to the genocide of the Serbs in Croatia) inside a personal, family narrative. It moves fast and is full of individual stories - quite different from the history he wrote with his son, which is denser and slower going, but also excellent. The material in this book on the Germans' role in Croatia is simply devastating. (I'm not quite a third of the way in.)
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:30 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:29 pm
Picked up a copy of “The Bombing of Auschwitz: Should the Allies Have Attempted it?” I also found a used copy of “Ordinary Men” with the new afterword.
Let us know how that turns out? I've always thought we should have bombed the camps.......its certain death vs a maybe?
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:32 pm

Coincidentally, one of the strengths of the book by Semelin I just read on survival of Jews in France is the capsule biographies of individuals and how their life stories are used to support, or complicate, arguments the author makes, and a strength of Goldstein's book on Croatia lies in the author's discussion of many individuals involved in the events - from his family, to neighbors and friends serving the Ustasha, to partisans, to local Jews.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Denying-History » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:33 am

Currently reading:
- Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War (I got this mainly because Furr reviewed it)

- Stalin's Secret Pogrom: The Postwar Inquisition of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee

- The Stalin Cult: A Study in the Alchemy of Power

Future reading:

-Histoire de l'Internationale communiste, 1919-1943 by Pierre Broué

- Africa's World War: Congo, the Rwandan Genocide, and the Making of a Continental Catastrophe by Gerard Prunier
« The Terror here is a horrifying fact. There is a fear that reaches down and haunts all sections of the community. No household, however humble, apparently but what lives in constant fear of nocturnal raid by the secret police. . .This particular purge is undoubtedly political. . . It is deliberately projected by the party leaders, who themselves regretted the necessity for it. »
Joseph E. Davies

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:18 pm

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:29 pm
Picked up a copy of “The Bombing of Auschwitz: Should the Allies Have Attempted it?” I also found a used copy of “Ordinary Men” with the new afterword.
One point I always think of when someone brings up the bombing of Auschwitz (or any other Eastern camp for that matter) is why is none of this shifted to the Soviets? They were much closer and they had bombers capable of doing the job. Hayes brings up the Pe-2 dive bomber that was ideal for precision bombing.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Statistical Mechanic » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:44 pm

And the Jews ran the country, too.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:01 pm

(((Absolutely!!!)))
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Anti-Semitism and the Monuments Men

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:11 pm

I’m not sure where exactly this post belongs, but I’m going to put it on the books thread, since it is a book review of sorts.

The book itself is Chopin’s Piano by Paul Kildea. (W.W. Norton, 2018). My wife gave it to me, and it is, throughout, a superb book. Its focus is on the piano made by Juan Bauza in 1839 and used by Chopin while he and George Sand were living in Majorca. But, in the course of telling that story, Kildea ranges over a wide spectrum of topics, including the musicology of the 24 Preludes that Chopin wrote during that time, and the history of piano making in general.

Among those topics are anti-Semitism in general, and the Nazi looting of musical artefacts. Both are relevant to this thread.
First, a variety of anti-Semitism that preceded the Nazi version of Jews-as-poison or Jews-as-vermin or Jews-as-enemies-of-the-state. I was sorry (though not terribly surprised) to learn that Chopin himself was anti-Semitic. But his relations with the Rothschilds and the banker August Léo were complicated. Here’s what Kildea says (pp. 75-76):
Léo was resident in Paris (from 1817 to 1838) and a good friend to Chopin, not least with his finances…this banker, brought out in Chopin the anti-Semitism that hummed away in the cultural background of many European cities in these decades. Léo was the subject of an anti-Semitic tirade [by Chopin] to Fontana over dealings with foreign publishers for the Preludes. (It seems Chopin owed Léo money at the time of his Majorca trip and the banker was merely trying to make good the debt.) So Léo was a Jew, a scoundrel, hysterical. In negotiations over the Preludes, others were similarly painted: “I did not expect such Jewish behavior from Pleyel…” When it looked as though Breitkopf & Härtel was faltering: “Schlesinger has swindled me all along…go carefully with him, for this Jew would like to cut a figure in the world.” And to Wojciech Grzymala, “Jews will be Jews and Huns will be Huns. That’s the truth, but what can one do? I am forced to deal with them.”
And yet, both the Rothschilds and Léo enhanced Chopin’s career in Paris enormously. It’s very doubtful he’d have acquired the reputation he got without their patronage.

So much for the anti-Semitism. The Nazi phase of the story involves another Polish musician, the pianist Wanda Landowska (1879—1959), who single-handedly revived the harpsichord as a concert instrument. She it was who acquired Chopin’s piano and took it with her to her enclave in Saint-Leu-la-Forêt, near Paris. Landowska was the daughter of two Roman Catholic parents, who naturally had her baptized and raised as Catholic. But those parents were both Jewish converts. Having four Jewish grandparents, Landowska wasn’t even a mischling as far as the Nazis were concerned; she was a Jew. (And actually, she was happy to be a Jew. She had married a Jewish man named Binder.) She left France just before it fell to the Nazis in 1940. (One of her recordings of Scarlatti actually has the sound of cannon fire in the background.) The Nazis of course, looted the priceless instruments she had to leave behind. She arrived through a circuitous route in New York on 8 December 1941, and naturally had some difficulties getting through immigration. But her reputation preceded her, and she made a considerable success out of an American career.
Starting in 1944, the famous Monuments Men found large parts of her property stashed in various salt mines. The Bauza piano itself was located, and returned to Saint-Leu-la-Forêt, but Landowska herself didn’t go back there. The piano may have been sent to her in the US, but the two women who looked after her in Lakeville, Connecticut, both said they didn’t know where it was. (A picture of it adorns the cover of the book.) It remains missing to this day. I’ll let Kildea summarize this:
A mine near Merkers in south-west Germany gave rise to one of the astonishing images of post-war recover: an American soldier casually mounting guard in the gloom while officials inspect sacks of gold bullion, estimated at 100 tonnes in total.

These discoveries continued as one Nazi official after another was tried and sentenced at Nuremberg. Göring reputedly unfazed by the extermination of six million Jews during the twelve years of Hitler’s rule, yet indignant when accused of being a common art thief. Here, too, the enormity of Alfred Rosenberg’s misdeeds was revealed: he was sentenced to death not just for crimes against humanity, but also for the “organized plunder of both public and private property throughout the invaded countries of Europe.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:41 pm

Excellent revie...thanks. I have loaned money to friends over the years. Never got it paid back, except from Mom. What I knew right from the start: don't loan money if you "really" need it back. What I learned: people who don't pay back loans withdraw from the friendship even if you never mention the debt.

What I concluded: friends can accept not getting a loan from you much more easily than the guilt they feel from not paying you back. Heh, heh: thats my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

but yeah: easier to call someone out on their religion, than pay the money back. You're saying a musician did that? Shocking!!!!!
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:02 pm

bobbo_the_Pragmatist wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:41 pm
Excellent revie...thanks. I have loaned money to friends over the years. Never got it paid back, except from Mom. What I knew right from the start: don't loan money if you "really" need it back. What I learned: people who don't pay back loans withdraw from the friendship even if you never mention the debt.

What I concluded: friends can accept not getting a loan from you much more easily than the guilt they feel from not paying you back. Heh, heh: thats my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

but yeah: easier to call someone out on their religion, than pay the money back. You're saying a musician did that? Shocking!!!!!
Yes, it's a very bad mistake to lend money to friends, even if you don't want it back. Even worse to lend money to family members, except under very unusual circumstances. Back in 1996, when I didn't have a pot to put flowers in (my daughter was a student at Bryn Mawr at the time), my son asked me for the down payment on a house. I was reluctant, but I borrowed $10,000 on my home equity loan (which was getting heavily hit to put my daughter through college), and he and his fiancée bought the house. But, since my son's credit rating was awful, the bank insisted I sign the mortgage as well. I didn't mind that so much as being owner of a house with all the liabilities that could entail. At one point, I discovered they had let the liability insurance lapse. But I hung in there. After 10 years, at which point all my other financial obligations were completely cleared out and I was on easy street, they sold the house at a substantial gain. I told them to keep the down payment; I didn't want it back.

My father loaned some money to my brother when his business was in trouble. Due to my brother's expensive divorce, the company went bankrupt, and my brother put the loan from my father into the bankruptcy. Dad was fit to be tied. It wasn't a business loan; he wasn't investing in the damn company. It was a personal loan to his son. My brother, however, was an honorable man in the end, and paid back every penny.

Just an example of what can go wrong when you mix sentiment and finances. The bottom line is as you say: Lend money to a friend, lose both the money and the friend.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:27 pm

Yeah, family stories are fun. Mom wanted $40K or so to build two apt complexes on her property but she couldn't qualify for the loan, so I said I would loan her the money. She actually got "snippy" when it became known I was going to charge her the 4% I was losing from my savings account. I said that was a lot cheaper than the 10% money she did NOT QUALIFY FOR....and if she didn't pay me back, she wouldn't be getting the same Christmas Card she didn't get from me every year. After a year or so .... she "almost" apologized and thanked me for only charging her what allowed me to break even. I think she was bitching about me to her friends....who told her she was wrong? I'm just guessing. when she died, the property value got split evenly between me and my two sisters. THAT pissed me off as I naturally should have gotten more, as the financier. But ...Mom was in her grave and negotiating a better deal was too late. Ha, ha. Money.
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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Jeffk 1970 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:36 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote: I also got the Kindle version of A Specter Hainting Europe: the Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism.
Started this up again.
Also, Donald Trump is a clownfraud who only got involved in this for the attention.

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https://deadspin.com/there-are-just-two ... 1613879544

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Re: General Books/Reading Discussion

Post by Upton_O_Goode » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:39 am

Jeffk 1970 wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:36 am
Jeffk 1970 wrote: I also got the Kindle version of A Specter Hainting Europe: the Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism.
Started this up again.
Thanks, Jeff. That's going to be my next read, followed by the Antoniou & Moses series mentioned by StatMech. My most recent read was an old book, Primo Levi's "The Drowned and the Saved." Levi gave the definitive answer to those (including even my friend and idol Raul Hilberg!) that the Jews should have fought back. He pointed out how really, really hard it is to fight back when you are stripped naked in the cold. He did once strike back at a prison guard and paid a terrible price for that. His final chapter, I think, was the best, in which he summarized the various letters he got from Germans, most of whom seemed to be guilt-ridden and some of whom were desperately trying to spin the Holocaust differently.
“It is certainly sad and regrettable that so many innocent people died…Stalin was absolutely adamant on making doubly sure: spare no one…I don’t deny that I supported that view. I was simply not able to study every individual case…It was hard to draw a precise line where to stop.”

Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Skryabin (“Molotov”)